Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297413 times)

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3900 on: September 01, 2020, 03:47:29 PM »
...
Trump was supposed to send the national guard to put the riots down. That is why Ted Wheeler refused to do anything.

Do you have a source for that? It's the first time I've heard that.

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that state and local government was strongly against the national guard coming in.

I think that's why there were only federal officers who were there were focused on the federal building.

My understanding was that the agreement for the federal people to leave was that state and local agreed to police the court house. But then the riots moved to other places.

My understanding is that Kenosha has requested and received help from the NG but Portland has not made that request.

But I also admit that I think it's super hard to know what's actually happening in Portland. If someone has a source saying state and local requested having the NG come in I'd be happy to be wrong here.

I've been following the news on the riots for 3 months now. It is obvious this was supposed to be a "decision dilemma."

Trump does nothing: people claim the riots are happening under his presidency and he is to blame for them. He appears weak.
Trump sends in the national guard: People will be screaming that he was the dictator they warned everyone about.

The rioters and protesters have been using inflammatory rhetoric to goad Trump into sending the National Guard in. In Seattle the CHAZ declared that it was "seceding from the union." What happened last time something decided to secede from the union? Attacking a Federal Courthouse is a provocation. Wandering residential neighborhoods and chanting is provocation.

But if you ask anyone with passing knowledge from the media, they would believe "peaceful protests" are all that is happening. That any violence is the fault of a small, miniscule number of "alt-right instigators."

Ted Wheeler and Governor Kate Brown will never give the okay for the National Guard. They want Trump to March in without authorization.

And what is the intent of the pro-Trump supporters (labelled based on the flags in the back of the pickup trucks) who have been driving to the protest areas and shooting people with paintball guns and using mace (or equivalent) on people? Are they also trying to get Trump to bring in the national guard (even though he has no authority to do that on domestic soil as that is the purview of the state governors)? Or are these people who see an opportunity to give it to the 'Libs? Honest question about how you perceive their actions.

They were stupid. Complete idiots. At this point conservatives should know that when they protest, any and all violence will be blamed on them. It is better to stay home and watch TV than go out and protest. Without opposition AntiFa will turn on themselves.

...
Trump was supposed to send the national guard to put the riots down. That is why Ted Wheeler refused to do anything.

Do you have a source for that? It's the first time I've heard that.

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that state and local government was strongly against the national guard coming in.

I think that's why there were only federal officers who were there were focused on the federal building.

My understanding was that the agreement for the federal people to leave was that state and local agreed to police the court house. But then the riots moved to other places.

My understanding is that Kenosha has requested and received help from the NG but Portland has not made that request.

But I also admit that I think it's super hard to know what's actually happening in Portland. If someone has a source saying state and local requested having the NG come in I'd be happy to be wrong here.

I've been following the news on the riots for 3 months now. It is obvious this was supposed to be a "decision dilemma."

Trump does nothing: people claim the riots are happening under his presidency and he is to blame for them. He appears weak.
Trump sends in the national guard: People will be screaming that he was the dictator they warned everyone about.

Seems to be quite a false dichotomy you've created here.  There are a lot more than two opposite actions that can be taken.

How about:
- Trump publicly acknowledges the problems with policing in the country, and visibly does something to try to fix them.
- Trump stops using inflammatory language intended to increase tensions with protesters.
- Trump stops authorizing illegal detention of US citizens who are protesting peacefully.
- Trump stops indicating his support for police brutality.
etc.

Will that approach work to help diffuse the flames that the current president has fanned into a raging inferno at every possible turn so far?  I honestly don't know.  But the approach so far of angry rhetoric and brutal policing has failed so far.  Maybe it's time to try something that hasn't been attempted instead of continuing with failed policy.



Attacking a Federal Courthouse is a provocation.

Hmm.  What happened the last time armed white people attacked a federal building without provocation?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge

Radically softer and more easygoing response on the part of law enforcement, that's what.  That's certainly very different than the steadily climbing injury rate reported by unarmed and peaceful protestors and news media at the hands of the police during the George Floyd protests.  Maybe the problem is that not enough George Floyd protesters are armed?



But if you ask anyone with passing knowledge from the media, they would believe "peaceful protests" are all that is happening. That any violence is the fault of a small, miniscule number of "alt-right instigators."

There's certainly violence going on in the protests across America right now.  I'm certain that some of the violence is coming from far left instigators.  I'm just as sure that there are also people who just want a chance to smash stuff.  There are undeniably a few far right instigators like the 17 year old who arrived at the protests in Wisconsin armed and with intent to commit murder - and was successful in his attempt.

The police have a very difficult job to do.  Their job is to protect peaceful protesters/bystanders/media and prevent violence from anyone who would commit it.  Unfortunately, they haven't been bothering to do this job.  There is ample evidence so far that police have chosen to willfully and violently target peaceful protestors and reporters.  They have continued to kill unarmed black men without cause.  In addition to attacking the people they're charged with protecting, police (and other law enforcement) are not bothering to prevent violence and damage from the protesters who are acting in a criminal manner.  So, while I sympathize with their plight, it's getting increasingly difficult to believe that throwing more law enforcement at this problem is a viable solution.

1. A change in Trump's demeanor will not help. Ted Wheeler has been on the rioters side since the beginning, even going out and getting tear gassed to show solidarity with them, and they still demand his resignation. What went right with Ted Wheelers approach?

Can you point to a time where Trump changed his demeanor towards the protesters that proves your claim here?



2. You are comparing a nature refuge in the middle of nowhere to a courthouse in the middle of a metropolitan area.

For the Nature Refuge you block off the roads and wait them out because they will run out of food. Why risk lives when people would surrender eventually?

The Portland courthouse, people were attempting to seize. People broke in and started a fire. The feds decided to put up plywood. People attempted to break down the plywood. The feds put up a metal fence. People brought angle grinders to cut the fence and then started beating the plywood. These people could leave, get food, sleep and come back night after night.

I would say they were different situations.

Agreed, they're different situations.  The federal building that I mentioned was hijacked by armed gunman . . . who brought firearms, supplies, and ammunition in a large scale and premeditated coordinated attack.  As you mentioned, one or two of the protesters had power tools.


3. You decide to try and refute my point about media manipulation with talking points from media manipulation. At this point with videos being available and a statement from his defense attorney explaining his side, you use your mind reading powers to understand his motives.

Media manipulation has little to do with it.  I believe that the motives of a man who brings an assault rifle to a protest because he violently disagrees with the protesters does indeed have bad intentions.  This seems to have been corroborated by his (very predictable) actions.  But you're right, this is not what the statements he released to the press after the fact to prove his innocence indicate that he was thinking.

So, by that token . . . you've repeatedly claimed that Ted Wheeler and Kate Brown want the president to march his jackbooted thugs into town without authorization.  Can you point to the times they've been quoted saying this?  Or are you using media driven talking points and mind reading powers to understand their motives?

:P



4.  The instigators are using the protests as cover. Bad actors are slapping "PRESS" on their shirts. The protesters will have to help root out troublemakers.

In your opinion . . . if one bad person puts 'PRESS' on their shirt who doesn't work for the press . . . the police should be given free reign to attack the press forevermore?  This includes when the people the police are attacking are:
- clearly marked as press
- obviously not criminal / performing any misdeeds
- obviously not a threat of any kind
- are displaying visible press cards and identification
?


https://twitter.com/i/status/1266546753182056453
https://twitter.com/i/status/1266925551941541890
https://twitter.com/i/status/1266945268567678976
https://twitter.com/i/status/1266910910137995264
https://twitter.com/i/status/1267294124123750402
https://twitter.com/i/status/1266919447970942986

I can find hundreds of video clips of police purposely targeting press who were clearly doing their jobs and not a threat.  Leaving aside the question of whether or not 'fake press' is really a thing as you're claiming . . . do you really argue that this is no problem?



The protesters will have to help root out troublemakers.

If the police rooted out troublemakers, there wouldn't be any protests to begin with.  Why do you believe that protesters have to be held to a much higher standard than police officers?

1. One guy gives into their demands and is still reviled. Why do you think Trump doing the same would help?

2. Are you disappointed the Feds didn't pull another "Waco?" That they didn't arm up and charge into the place?

The Feds used non-lethal munitions and crowd control to disperse the attackers. What else would have done?

3. If two videos showing him being chased and a witness saying the AntiFa side started it can't convince you, there is no helping you.

As for the mayor and Governor, well, they have a duty to uphold the law, correct? They have to make sure the city and state stays functional so people can go about their daily lives. It sounds like they have abandoned their duties.

Nor is this an isolated incident. Portland, Seattle, Chicago, Kenosha, New York, all these places has had violent riots. What else could be the common factor? Seems like Democratic strong holds. Why would Democrats all of a sudden decide their cities needed a taste of lawlessness?

4. Were they told that an "unlawful assembly" had been declared? Having a press badges does not allow you to ignore police instructions. Does having a press padge mean laws suddenly don't apply to you?

5. The violence detracts from the message. Protesters should report anyone that is instigating violence or is looting. I believe they have agency of their own to do such things.

I also wanted to make a small point about using the term "Antifa" to refer to protesters. That term is a complete fabrication of the extreme right wing media, so the point about media manipulation after that just rings a bit hollow

Facebook banned AntiFa.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/19/facebook-qanon-antifa-398672

Teespring banned AntiFa.
https://mobile.twitter.com/teespring/status/1291855415320420353

Why are left leaning companies banning "AntiFa?"

Why are they organizing on Twitter?
https://mobile.twitter.com/antifaintl/status/1293522323966955522
https://mobile.twitter.com/RoseCityAntifa/status/956714504502431745

Why do they have a snack van?
https://mobile.twitter.com/SnackVanTM

There's certainly violence going on in the protests across America right now.  I'm certain that some of the violence is coming from far left instigators.  I'm just as sure that there are also people who just want a chance to smash stuff.  There are undeniably a few far right instigators like the 17 year old who arrived at the protests in Wisconsin armed and with intent to commit murder - and was successful in his attempt..

So the right wing kid who brings a gun and medical kit to the protests and spent his day standing in front of businesses so they don't get torched, washing off graffiti, carrying around a fire extinguisher and running away from aggressors whenever possible came with the intent to commit murder but the left wing guy who brought a gun and a medical kit to the protests was just prepared to defend himself should he be attacked?

Don't expect consistency. Just don't.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3901 on: September 01, 2020, 04:23:45 PM »
I read this article today.   It compares US military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan to police actions back home.   https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/police-military-tactics-lessons-protests.html

Quote
Paul Szoldra, a former Marine sergeant who served in Afghanistan and is now editor in chief of the military website Task & Purpose, put it more bluntly.* After a policeman in Kenosha, Wisconsin, fired seven bullets into the back of Jacob Blake, Szoldra tweeted, “If I shot a civilian 7 times in Afghanistan after he tried to get into a car, I’d be court-martialed for murder, [my] general would apologize, & my Marines would be pissed because I made their job harder.”

The author claims that the military have much better training than the police.     If a US marine got out of line in interactions with the locals, the rest of his unit would help to re-socialize him.    This is the opposite of the police, where the blue brotherhood would close ranks and try to hide the malfeasance.

Any comments on this from former/server members of the US military?     I know Trump pardoned a US navy officer for shooting some locals, but hopefully that was the exception, not the norm.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3902 on: September 01, 2020, 04:41:38 PM »
I sometimes wonder if far left organizations/individuals actually want 4 more years of Trump. I mean, burning cars on TV every night, and dumb slogans like "defund the police" and various no-police protest zones turning into warlordism/anarchy/disaster (which again gets broadcast on the news constantly) is pretty much a recipe for re-electing Trump in my book. Surely people recognize this, but they keep doing the same dumb crap anyway.

Then again, maybe it's rational. It's easy to raise money/interest with Trump available as a bogeyman. There could be some institutional level logic (ie, Trump=easier to raise funds/more money) for left wing organizations to want him to stay in office, even if that runs counter to their actual policy goals. It wouldn't be the first time bureaucratic inertia overcame actual policy goals.

-W

The people burning and looting and setting up "autonomous zones" don't have any policy goals. Their aim is to bring down capitalism so they don't align themselves with either major party in the United States because both the Republicans and Democrats are capitalists. They are trying to collapse "the system". That's why it's so confusing. They aren't actually allied with Biden or any other political figure involved with governing on the center left or even the far left.

Thank. you. for. this.

That's great. I don't disagree with you that rank and file Democrats are not promoting anarchy/freeing everyone from prisons, immediately abolishing all police departments/etc.

That being said there are people that feel that way, and they're making a big splash with their violent actions/loud voices. So, if you disagree with them, it's probably a good idea to stop using phrases that can very easily be associated with it like defund the police. Just a thought...

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3903 on: September 01, 2020, 05:29:37 PM »
That's great. I don't disagree with you that rank and file Democrats are not promoting anarchy/freeing everyone from prisons, immediately abolishing all police departments/etc.

That being said there are people that feel that way, and they're making a big splash with their violent actions/loud voices. So, if you disagree with them, it's probably a good idea to stop using phrases that can very easily be associated with it like defund the police. Just a thought...

Eh, haters gonna hate.

That is, people who would be persuaded by the tactic of "They want to defund the police! The suburbs are going to be run over by the blacks antifa!!11!" won't hear or won't believe that Biden and leftist Democrats don't want to 100%, totally, defund the police and set criminals free.

The Republican convention, though, continually tried to make Biden a radical. They couldn't do it directly because he's been a moderate Democrat his entire life so they're now trying to paint him as a tool for radicals.


tl;dr The lines are drawn. No Foxnews-watching Republican is going to change their mind because Biden's "defund" policy is a baby step.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 05:31:10 PM by bacchi »

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3904 on: September 01, 2020, 08:05:47 PM »
I read this article today.   It compares US military actions in Iraq and Afghanistan to police actions back home.   https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/police-military-tactics-lessons-protests.html

Quote
Paul Szoldra, a former Marine sergeant who served in Afghanistan and is now editor in chief of the military website Task & Purpose, put it more bluntly.* After a policeman in Kenosha, Wisconsin, fired seven bullets into the back of Jacob Blake, Szoldra tweeted, “If I shot a civilian 7 times in Afghanistan after he tried to get into a car, I’d be court-martialed for murder, [my] general would apologize, & my Marines would be pissed because I made their job harder.”

The author claims that the military have much better training than the police.     If a US marine got out of line in interactions with the locals, the rest of his unit would help to re-socialize him.    This is the opposite of the police, where the blue brotherhood would close ranks and try to hide the malfeasance.

Any comments on this from former/server members of the US military?     I know Trump pardoned a US navy officer for shooting some locals, but hopefully that was the exception, not the norm.

I don't know if we have "better training," but we certainly have more restrictive rules of engagement.  In the US, a police officer can kill because he felt he was in danger or thought the suspect was armed. Even if no weapon or malicious intent are found after the fact, the police officer is exonerated because he acted within procedure. Of course nobody seems concerned that approved procedures allow for these sorts of actions.  If I shoot an unarmed civilian in Iraq or Afghanistan on purpose and that person had no weapon and displayed no immediate aggression towards me, I'm going to court martial.

The police have a very difficult job to do.  Their job is to protect peaceful protesters/bystanders/media and prevent violence from anyone who would commit it.  Unfortunately, they haven't been bothering to do this job.  There is ample evidence so far that police have chosen to willfully and violently target peaceful protestors and reporters.  They have continued to kill unarmed black men without cause.  In addition to attacking the people they're charged with protecting, police (and other law enforcement) are not bothering to prevent violence and damage from the protesters who are acting in a criminal manner.  So, while I sympathize with their plight, it's getting increasingly difficult to believe that throwing more law enforcement at this problem is a viable solution.

This is something I've been considering lately. Not only do they have a difficult job to do, but the protesters they are tasked with managing are there to protest them and their livelihoods, or at least that's the perception of many police officers. Is it any surprise that the police are angry at the protesters?

Not that it excuses beating people who have their hands in the air, but I guess my point is that it makes for a very difficult situation. Local leaders have one tool to directly diffuse the situation and that tool isn't particularly interested in doing it's job*. Big picture, there's no way to address this that will have a perfect outcome. People are going to get hurt and property is going to be destroyed no matter what government decides to do. Hopefully they're making an honest attempt at minimizing that damage but I certainly don't have the expertise to critique their decisions.

And that's before you throw the fuel of left wing extremists who think violence is the answer, right wing extremists who want to make cities look bad, groups like boogaloo who's only goal is violence, opportunistic criminals, and fearmongering politicians who have scared more moderate people into thinking vigilantism and carrying guns is a solution.

*That's not meant to be a criticism of all police, but it's too many to just say it's a few bad apples either. This is a situational problem.

And those police unions then hold the city hostage by staying home when they're criticized.  How dare anybody question the manner in which they beat and shoot people in the name of order?

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3905 on: September 01, 2020, 08:06:37 PM »
Getting shot in the back is just like being a golf shot that gets flubbed.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3906 on: September 01, 2020, 11:05:20 PM »
Getting shot in the back is just like being a golf shot that gets flubbed.

And shadow people are controlling Biden.

That interview was embarrassing. I'm surprised they didn't try to keep it under wraps.

ministashy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3907 on: September 02, 2020, 12:25:30 AM »
On the flip side of all the conservatives who don't like the 'defund the police' slogan, some food for thought:

If crime goes up, the police go to the public and say they need more money/officers/guns to keep them safe.

If crime goes down, the police go the public and say 'see what a good job we did?'  Keep giving us the same amount of money or the criminals will come back and you won't be safe.'

Regardless of what the crime statistics are, if the public try to cut police budgets, or push back on police solidarity, then the unions close ranks and tell them that if they don't get the money/officers/guns they want, crime will go up and nobody will be safe.  In extreme cases, you will have police choosing not to respond to calls to punish certain districts, or have precincts call off with the 'blue flu'.

And when an officer shoots a civilian--regardless of what that civilian was doing, regardless of what they were accused of, regardless of how armed or unarmed they were, police will always close ranks and claim the shooting was justified.  The officer who did it gets a few days of vacation (administrative leave), paid for by the public.  If the shooting is particularly egregious, then he gets fired, and the department sued--but the public still has to pay for any damages, not the PD budget, and there is absolutely nothing keeping that officer from moving to the next department and getting a new job.

I appreciate that police have a tough job, and I used to give them a lot more of the benefit of the doubt.  ('A few bad apples' and all that.)  But the more I learn about how departments operate, the more I feel like there are far too many out there that are acting less like law enforcement and more like a protection racket.  'Give us money and don't question what we do, or you won't like what happens to your neighborhoods.'

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3908 on: September 02, 2020, 02:04:37 AM »
That being said there are people that feel that way, and they're making a big splash with their violent actions/loud voices. So, if you disagree with them, it's probably a good idea to stop using phrases that can very easily be associated with it like defund the police. Just a thought...
In this case it's okay for me to call any MAGA idiot a Nazi because that phrase was one of Hitler's, right?


Quote
So the right wing kid who brings a gun and medical kit to the protests and spent his day standing in front of businesses so they don't get torched, washing off graffiti, carrying around a fire extinguisher and running away from aggressors whenever possible came with the intent to commit murder but the left wing guy who brought a gun and a medical kit to the protests was just prepared to defend himself should he be attacked?
Just for the sake of discussion, ignoring all other points especially objective truth:
In the case of the "left", he thinks is defending himself or his family from getting killed by police.
In the case of the right, he is defending property of someone else.

I am always dumbfounded by how many (esp. right) Americans seem to be more concerned over a property damage than about a human live.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 02:13:38 AM by LennStar »

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3909 on: September 02, 2020, 04:34:49 AM »
That being said there are people that feel that way, and they're making a big splash with their violent actions/loud voices. So, if you disagree with them, it's probably a good idea to stop using phrases that can very easily be associated with it like defund the police. Just a thought...
In this case it's okay for me to call any MAGA idiot a Nazi because that phrase was one of Hitler's, right?


You're not going to bother me, and I'm certainly beyond defending anything Trump does or Trump supporters, so have at it. If you'd made the statement I wouldn't have come close to generating enough internal energy to argue with you. However, to respond to your question since you asked directly, it's not really the same thing because with Hitler, you have something well known, sure, but that happened 70 years ago. With this, you have two simultaneously occurring movements, one of which liberals claim they don't agree with at all but that are using similar terminology. Might be worth expending a little energy to differentiate yourself.

That's great. I don't disagree with you that rank and file Democrats are not promoting anarchy/freeing everyone from prisons, immediately abolishing all police departments/etc.

That being said there are people that feel that way, and they're making a big splash with their violent actions/loud voices. So, if you disagree with them, it's probably a good idea to stop using phrases that can very easily be associated with it like defund the police. Just a thought...

Eh, haters gonna hate.

That is, people who would be persuaded by the tactic of "They want to defund the police! The suburbs are going to be run over by the blacks antifa!!11!" won't hear or won't believe that Biden and leftist Democrats don't want to 100%, totally, defund the police and set criminals free.

The Republican convention, though, continually tried to make Biden a radical. They couldn't do it directly because he's been a moderate Democrat his entire life so they're now trying to paint him as a tool for radicals.


tl;dr The lines are drawn. No Foxnews-watching Republican is going to change their mind because Biden's "defund" policy is a baby step.

You can take that position if you want, of course. I think it's a pretty cynical and actually an innacurate position. This movement is getting traction. I'm seeing apolitical people post about BLM and starting dialogues. I'm seeing conservative people being swayed where they're not automatically taking the side of the police.

It's ironic, liberal people defending things like the term "defund the police" are condescending of people criticizing it (not saying you were here but in general) with the critique, you need to just take some time and energy and dig into the issue. It's ironic because as a movement they're not taking the time and energy to properly articulate a phrase that means what they want it to mean, even when other simultaneous groups, as mentioned above, are literally promoting true defunding of the police where there is no money at all therefore no police and liberals can't be bothered to repudiate the phrase and promote what they're really wanting.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3910 on: September 02, 2020, 07:00:12 AM »
There's certainly violence going on in the protests across America right now.  I'm certain that some of the violence is coming from far left instigators.  I'm just as sure that there are also people who just want a chance to smash stuff.  There are undeniably a few far right instigators like the 17 year old who arrived at the protests in Wisconsin armed and with intent to commit murder - and was successful in his attempt..

So the right wing kid who brings a gun and medical kit to the protests and spent his day standing in front of businesses so they don't get torched, washing off graffiti, carrying around a fire extinguisher and running away from aggressors whenever possible came with the intent to commit murder but the left wing guy who brought a gun and a medical kit to the protests was just prepared to defend himself should he be attacked?

No, of course not!

Bringing a gun to a protest is a bad idea.  Full stop.  Why would political affiliation play into it?  It's probably a worse idea for a BLM protester to bring a gun given the number of murders that police commit against unarmed black folks . . . no need to provide extra reasons/excuses to be shot.  Bringing a gun to a protest is like bringing an angle grinder, or baseball bad, or 30 cans of spray paint - seems like someone is looking for trouble.  A gun is an offensive weapon - it's not defensive at all.  It is a violence escalator.  There is no way to shoot someone safely or defensively.

Are the armed right wing and left wing kids equal (beyond being equally misguided to bring a firearm to a protest)?  I dunno . . . we would have to look at their actions.  How many people did the left wing kid murder with his gun?  The right wing kid killed two.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3911 on: September 02, 2020, 07:25:45 AM »
I cannot reconcile the concept of "peaceful" with carrying an assault-style firearm.  The latter inherently carries the threat of mortal harm.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3912 on: September 02, 2020, 08:10:40 AM »
1. A change in Trump's demeanor will not help. Ted Wheeler has been on the rioters side since the beginning, even going out and getting tear gassed to show solidarity with them, and they still demand his resignation. What went right with Ted Wheelers approach?

Can you point to a time where Trump changed his demeanor towards the protesters that proves your claim here?

1. One guy gives into their demands and is still reviled. Why do you think Trump doing the same would help?

I didn't say that he has to give in to their demands.  Where are you getting that?  I believe that a change in Trump's demeanor would be a help in the situation.  It certainly has not been tried thus far by the president.

Since the protests started he has been extremely aggressive, both in his rhetoric and in his actions.  This approach has increased rather than reduced tensions.  You appear to be advocating for more of the same failed approach.  If it has been proven to not work, why do you think more of the same will suddenly start working?  To me this makes little sense.  Perhaps you could explain your reasoning on this.



3. You decide to try and refute my point about media manipulation with talking points from media manipulation. At this point with videos being available and a statement from his defense attorney explaining his side, you use your mind reading powers to understand his motives.

Media manipulation has little to do with it.  I believe that the motives of a man who brings an assault rifle to a protest because he violently disagrees with the protesters does indeed have bad intentions.  This seems to have been corroborated by his (very predictable) actions.  But you're right, this is not what the statements he released to the press after the fact to prove his innocence indicate that he was thinking.

3. If two videos showing him being chased and a witness saying the AntiFa side started it can't convince you, there is no helping you.

The teenager who committed the murders was certainly chased by protesters after he shot and killed the first time.  That's on video and is very clear.  I don't consider running to try and stop a gunman who has just shot another person to be an unreasonable act of violence.  There we do appear to differ.

Can you provide the source that you're using that describes the protesters involved as AntiFa please?



So, by that token . . . you've repeatedly claimed that Ted Wheeler and Kate Brown want the president to march his jackbooted thugs into town without authorization.  Can you point to the times they've been quoted saying this?  Or are you using media driven talking points and mind reading powers to understand their motives?

As for the mayor and Governor, well, they have a duty to uphold the law, correct? They have to make sure the city and state stays functional so people can go about their daily lives. It sounds like they have abandoned their duties.

Nor is this an isolated incident. Portland, Seattle, Chicago, Kenosha, New York, all these places has had violent riots. What else could be the common factor? Seems like Democratic strong holds. Why would Democrats all of a sudden decide their cities needed a taste of lawlessness?

So, again . . . I've got to ask you . . . are you using media driven talking points and mind reading powers to understand the motives of others?  Or do you have evidence that supports the very serious allegations you're making?  Having this evidence was very important to you in this very conversation just a few posts ago.

FWIW, I think that it's reasonable to look at a situation and infer what people think by their actions.

Are Democrats letting situations escalate out of control and causing violence on their own?  Maybe.  But there are certainly other reasons why these areas might get violent.  You mention New York . . . New York has a long history of race based policing, of unarmed black men being killed by police without cause, and of the police officers involved in the deaths never being held accountable.  Chicago the same.  So if you ask me why violent protests broke out there, the answer seems pretty obvious.

Then we have the situations that don't fit the 'Trump-hating Democrat' narrative at all.  Like Kenosha.

Kenosha is yet another place where police used unreasonable force when dealing with a black man.
 It makes sense that there were violent protests there.  It is represented by Republican Bryan Steil in the House of Representatives, and by Republican Ron Johnson and Democrat Tammy Baldwin in the senate.  The mayor of Kenosha requested that the national guard be brought in when protests became violent.  None of this appears to play into the narrative that Democrats are masterminding a way to make Trump look bad and refusing to call in support when needed.



4.  The instigators are using the protests as cover. Bad actors are slapping "PRESS" on their shirts. The protesters will have to help root out troublemakers.

In your opinion . . . if one bad person puts 'PRESS' on their shirt who doesn't work for the press . . . the police should be given free reign to attack the press forevermore?  This includes when the people the police are attacking are:
- clearly marked as press
- obviously not criminal / performing any misdeeds
- obviously not a threat of any kind
- are displaying visible press cards and identification
?

https://twitter.com/i/status/1266546753182056453
https://twitter.com/i/status/1266925551941541890
https://twitter.com/i/status/1266945268567678976
https://twitter.com/i/status/1266910910137995264
https://twitter.com/i/status/1267294124123750402
https://twitter.com/i/status/1266919447970942986

I can find hundreds of video clips of police purposely targeting press who were clearly doing their jobs and not a threat.  Leaving aside the question of whether or not 'fake press' is really a thing as you're claiming . . . do you really argue that this is no problem?

4. Were they told that an "unlawful assembly" had been declared? Having a press badges does not allow you to ignore police instructions. Does having a press padge mean laws suddenly don't apply to you?

From this comment it appears you didn't actually watch the video that was taken.  The police fired rubber bullets and tear gas upon people clearly marked as press from a distance, without giving any instructions, and without warning.

Having a press badge certainly doesn't mean that laws no longer apply.  But there appears to be some confusion about what "unlawful assembly" means.

Here's a direct quote from New York state's legal code about unlawful assembly:
Quote
240.10 Unlawful assembly.
A person is guilty of unlawful assembly when he assembles with four or
  more  other  persons  for the purpose of engaging or preparing to engage
  with them in tumultuous and  violent  conduct  likely  to  cause  public
  alarm,  or  when,  being  present  at  an  assembly  which either has or
  develops such purpose, he remains there  with  intent  to  advance  that
  purpose.

As you can see, declaring 'unlawful assembly' does not apply to press covering the story in New York as they are not remaining with an intent to advance the purpose of tumultuous or violent conduct.  I suspect that the rules are similar in other states as well, but feel free to check on your own.

Either way, you have not answered my question.  Is it acceptable in your eyes for police to aggressively attack those who are:
- clearly marked as press
- obviously not criminal / performing any misdeeds
- obviously not a threat of any kind
- are displaying visible press cards and identification
?



The protesters will have to help root out troublemakers.

If the police rooted out troublemakers, there wouldn't be any protests to begin with.  Why do you believe that protesters have to be held to a much higher standard than police officers?

5. The violence detracts from the message. Protesters should report anyone that is instigating violence or is looting. I believe they have agency of their own to do such things.

I agree with you.  Violence does detract from the message.  I also agree that protesters should report anyone instigating violence or looting.  Indeed, many did just that in different occasions (https://www.wsj.com/articles/at-george-floyd-protests-police-and-protesters-try-to-stop-looting-11591377543, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/george-floyd-protesters-condemn-opportunistic-looting-violence).  Could more be done on this front?  Probably.

But again . . . it's important to hold police to the same high standard we hold protesters to.  Police violence and lawlessness detracts from the message that the police want people to follow rules and behave peacefully.  Regardless of the number of protesters who report looting - I fear that the looting will likely continue while the police continue to behave lawlessly.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3913 on: September 02, 2020, 10:09:06 AM »
You can take that position if you want, of course. I think it's a pretty cynical and actually an innacurate position. This movement is getting traction. I'm seeing apolitical people post about BLM and starting dialogues. I'm seeing conservative people being swayed where they're not automatically taking the side of the police.

It's ironic, liberal people defending things like the term "defund the police" are condescending of people criticizing it (not saying you were here but in general) with the critique, you need to just take some time and energy and dig into the issue. It's ironic because as a movement they're not taking the time and energy to properly articulate a phrase that means what they want it to mean, even when other simultaneous groups, as mentioned above, are literally promoting true defunding of the police where there is no money at all therefore no police and liberals can't be bothered to repudiate the phrase and promote what they're really wanting.

We've discussed the term before on this very forum and you may have posted in that thread. Most (all?) think it's a bad phrasing. The originators needed some marketing. Unfortunately, that train has left the station.

My point is that it doesn't matter. Biden's plan is out there and in no way defunds (per the dictionary definition) the police but the GOP is going to use it as an attack anyway.

Is it a poor choice of words? Definitely.
Have the Democrats promoted what they really wanted? Yes, in both Biden's plan and in actual cities where they're looking at "defunding" the police.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/joe-biden-defund-the-police-position

Quote from: foxnews
In June, when "defund the police" became a rallying cry for many of the protesters demanding justice for George Floyd, Biden called for police reform but said he did not support defunding police departments.

Meanwhile, Republican US Representatives are posting doctored videos.

Quote from: foxnews
That video interview resurfaced this week when Rep. Steve Scalise, R-La., removed an edited video of Biden and Barkan he posted on Twitter after backlash that the clip was "doctored" to portray the Democratic presidential nominee as supporting the defunding of police.
[...]
The context of the original exchange made clear that Barkan was talking about redirecting police funding, but the edit drew strong criticism nevertheless.
(bolded)

brandon1827

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3914 on: September 02, 2020, 01:00:01 PM »
I think one factor at play in the escalation of protests and Trump's continued flaming of these situations, is that this narrative seems to play into one (of the seemingly endless) re-election themes that he's the "LAW AND ORDER" president. He has no vested interest in deescalating tensions in any of these situations and doing so would not only go completely against his character, but would undercut his message that he alone can save everyone from "Biden's America"...nevermind that all of this is currently happening in Trump's America.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3915 on: September 02, 2020, 08:06:10 PM »
OK, this one is incredibly outrageous - Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system

The f-ing President of the United states is asking citizens to commit a crime.  Either way, HE wins - it sows doubt about the election outcome if they don't, and it also might get him some more votes, or get people arrested which is THEIR problem...  The high-stakes deterrent was put there to discourage the idea of trying it, not to turn how-ever-many Trump loyalists in to criminals, or blow up the election...  *Giant face-palm followed by banging head against the wall*  This really cannot be happening.  November is coming way too late this year...

Quote
The President later told people to send in their ballots, saying, "Send them in strong, whether it's solicited or unsolicited. The absentees are fine. You have to work to get them, you know."
"And you send them in, but you go to vote. And if they haven't counted it, you can vote. So that's the way I feel," he said.
Trump essentially encouraged voters to test the state's voting system.
According to North Carolina law, it's a felony "for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election."

Clearly, if you send in an absentee or mail-in ballot, do not try to vote in person also, 'just in case'.  The President should know that.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 08:08:40 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3916 on: September 02, 2020, 08:21:04 PM »
OK, this one is incredibly outrageous - Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system

The f-ing President of the United states is asking citizens to commit a crime.  Either way, HE wins - it sows doubt about the election outcome if they don't, and it also might get him some more votes, or get people arrested which is THEIR problem...  The high-stakes deterrent was put there to discourage the idea of trying it, not to turn how-ever-many Trump loyalists in to criminals, or blow up the election...  *Giant face-palm followed by banging head against the wall*  This really cannot be happening.  November is coming way too late this year...

Quote
The President later told people to send in their ballots, saying, "Send them in strong, whether it's solicited or unsolicited. The absentees are fine. You have to work to get them, you know."
"And you send them in, but you go to vote. And if they haven't counted it, you can vote. So that's the way I feel," he said.
Trump essentially encouraged voters to test the state's voting system.
According to North Carolina law, it's a felony "for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election."

Clearly, if you send in an absentee or mail-in ballot, do not try to vote in person also, 'just in case'.  The President should know that.

If the systems are in place, they will not be able tocommit a crime. They will cast a provisional ballot in person, that will be matched up with their mail in ballot, and only the mail in ballot will be counted.

What it will do is gum up the whole process if they have to process thousands of provisional ballots that were cast just to test it.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3917 on: September 02, 2020, 08:33:50 PM »
OK, this one is incredibly outrageous - Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system

The f-ing President of the United states is asking citizens to commit a crime.  Either way, HE wins - it sows doubt about the election outcome if they don't, and it also might get him some more votes, or get people arrested which is THEIR problem...  The high-stakes deterrent was put there to discourage the idea of trying it, not to turn how-ever-many Trump loyalists in to criminals, or blow up the election...  *Giant face-palm followed by banging head against the wall*  This really cannot be happening.  November is coming way too late this year...

Quote
The President later told people to send in their ballots, saying, "Send them in strong, whether it's solicited or unsolicited. The absentees are fine. You have to work to get them, you know."
"And you send them in, but you go to vote. And if they haven't counted it, you can vote. So that's the way I feel," he said.
Trump essentially encouraged voters to test the state's voting system.
According to North Carolina law, it's a felony "for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election."

Clearly, if you send in an absentee or mail-in ballot, do not try to vote in person also, 'just in case'.  The President should know that.

If the systems are in place, they will not be able tocommit a crime. They will cast a provisional ballot in person, that will be matched up with their mail in ballot, and only the mail in ballot will be counted.

What it will do is gum up the whole process if they have to process thousands of provisional ballots that were cast just to test it.

If they don't tell the poll workers that they've already voted, does the mail-in ballot take precedence?

It could delay the results, which also helps Trump's "stolen election" theme.

ysette9

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3918 on: September 02, 2020, 09:04:43 PM »
The hypocrisy really is astounding

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3919 on: September 03, 2020, 05:36:17 AM »
OK, this one is incredibly outrageous - Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system

The f-ing President of the United states is asking citizens to commit a crime.  Either way, HE wins - it sows doubt about the election outcome if they don't, and it also might get him some more votes, or get people arrested which is THEIR problem...  The high-stakes deterrent was put there to discourage the idea of trying it, not to turn how-ever-many Trump loyalists in to criminals, or blow up the election...  *Giant face-palm followed by banging head against the wall*  This really cannot be happening.  November is coming way too late this year...

Quote
The President later told people to send in their ballots, saying, "Send them in strong, whether it's solicited or unsolicited. The absentees are fine. You have to work to get them, you know."
"And you send them in, but you go to vote. And if they haven't counted it, you can vote. So that's the way I feel," he said.
Trump essentially encouraged voters to test the state's voting system.
According to North Carolina law, it's a felony "for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election."

Clearly, if you send in an absentee or mail-in ballot, do not try to vote in person also, 'just in case'.  The President should know that.

If the systems are in place, they will not be able tocommit a crime. They will cast a provisional ballot in person, that will be matched up with their mail in ballot, and only the mail in ballot will be counted.

What it will do is gum up the whole process if they have to process thousands of provisional ballots that were cast just to test it.

If they don't tell the poll workers that they've already voted, does the mail-in ballot take precedence?

It could delay the results, which also helps Trump's "stolen election" theme.

Yes the mail in ballot takes precedence. The provisional ballot is only counted if there is no other ballot and the voter is confirmed eligible to vote.

brandon1827

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3920 on: September 03, 2020, 06:36:20 AM »
It's incredibly sad to watch our democracy be stolen and stomped to death in real time...with 40%+ of the population cheering it on

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3921 on: September 03, 2020, 07:04:20 AM »
It's incredibly sad to watch our democracy be stolen and stomped to death in real time...with 40%+ of the population cheering it on

Unfortunately, in a democracy the people get the government they deserve.

Freedom2016

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3922 on: September 03, 2020, 07:22:16 AM »
OK, this one is incredibly outrageous - Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system

The f-ing President of the United states is asking citizens to commit a crime.  Either way, HE wins - it sows doubt about the election outcome if they don't, and it also might get him some more votes, or get people arrested which is THEIR problem...  The high-stakes deterrent was put there to discourage the idea of trying it, not to turn how-ever-many Trump loyalists in to criminals, or blow up the election...  *Giant face-palm followed by banging head against the wall*  This really cannot be happening.  November is coming way too late this year...

Quote
The President later told people to send in their ballots, saying, "Send them in strong, whether it's solicited or unsolicited. The absentees are fine. You have to work to get them, you know."
"And you send them in, but you go to vote. And if they haven't counted it, you can vote. So that's the way I feel," he said.
Trump essentially encouraged voters to test the state's voting system.
According to North Carolina law, it's a felony "for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election."

Clearly, if you send in an absentee or mail-in ballot, do not try to vote in person also, 'just in case'.  The President should know that.

If the systems are in place, they will not be able tocommit a crime. They will cast a provisional ballot in person, that will be matched up with their mail in ballot, and only the mail in ballot will be counted.

What it will do is gum up the whole process if they have to process thousands of provisional ballots that were cast just to test it.

In my small town we use paper ballots. I check in to vote, then check out after voting, but there are no identifying marks on my actual ballot to connect my specific ballot to me. Is this unsual? How on earth would a system like this match a mail-in ballot to a provisional one?

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3923 on: September 03, 2020, 07:35:09 AM »
OK, this one is incredibly outrageous - Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system

The f-ing President of the United states is asking citizens to commit a crime.  Either way, HE wins - it sows doubt about the election outcome if they don't, and it also might get him some more votes, or get people arrested which is THEIR problem...  The high-stakes deterrent was put there to discourage the idea of trying it, not to turn how-ever-many Trump loyalists in to criminals, or blow up the election...  *Giant face-palm followed by banging head against the wall*  This really cannot be happening.  November is coming way too late this year...

Quote
The President later told people to send in their ballots, saying, "Send them in strong, whether it's solicited or unsolicited. The absentees are fine. You have to work to get them, you know."
"And you send them in, but you go to vote. And if they haven't counted it, you can vote. So that's the way I feel," he said.
Trump essentially encouraged voters to test the state's voting system.
According to North Carolina law, it's a felony "for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election."

Clearly, if you send in an absentee or mail-in ballot, do not try to vote in person also, 'just in case'.  The President should know that.

If the systems are in place, they will not be able tocommit a crime. They will cast a provisional ballot in person, that will be matched up with their mail in ballot, and only the mail in ballot will be counted.

What it will do is gum up the whole process if they have to process thousands of provisional ballots that were cast just to test it.

In my small town we use paper ballots. I check in to vote, then check out after voting, but there are no identifying marks on my actual ballot to connect my specific ballot to me. Is this unsual? How on earth would a system like this match a mail-in ballot to a provisional one?

The provisional ballot goes into an envelope, similar to the mail in ballot. The information on the envelope is verified, and checked against mail in ballots, as well as other provisional ballots. They decide whether or not this particular ballot will be counted without ever looking at the ballot. If it is to be counted, it gets put with the rest of the ballots for a fair election.

Check with your local election board for specific details.

economista

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3924 on: September 03, 2020, 07:37:27 AM »
OK, this one is incredibly outrageous - Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system

The f-ing President of the United states is asking citizens to commit a crime.  Either way, HE wins - it sows doubt about the election outcome if they don't, and it also might get him some more votes, or get people arrested which is THEIR problem...  The high-stakes deterrent was put there to discourage the idea of trying it, not to turn how-ever-many Trump loyalists in to criminals, or blow up the election...  *Giant face-palm followed by banging head against the wall*  This really cannot be happening.  November is coming way too late this year...

Quote
The President later told people to send in their ballots, saying, "Send them in strong, whether it's solicited or unsolicited. The absentees are fine. You have to work to get them, you know."
"And you send them in, but you go to vote. And if they haven't counted it, you can vote. So that's the way I feel," he said.
Trump essentially encouraged voters to test the state's voting system.
According to North Carolina law, it's a felony "for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election."

Clearly, if you send in an absentee or mail-in ballot, do not try to vote in person also, 'just in case'.  The President should know that.

If the systems are in place, they will not be able tocommit a crime. They will cast a provisional ballot in person, that will be matched up with their mail in ballot, and only the mail in ballot will be counted.

What it will do is gum up the whole process if they have to process thousands of provisional ballots that were cast just to test it.

In my small town we use paper ballots. I check in to vote, then check out after voting, but there are no identifying marks on my actual ballot to connect my specific ballot to me. Is this unsual? How on earth would a system like this match a mail-in ballot to a provisional one?

I’m pretty sure after the last election I read about a person who was caught submitting their mail-in ballot (universal mail in ballots in CO) and then voting in person as well. I’m too lazy to look it up right now but if I remember correctly it was a female, a Trump voter, and she was prosecuted for voter fraud. I feel like anyone who knowing tries to vote twice should be prosecuted - not just have their duplicate ballot thrown out.

megaschnauzer

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OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3926 on: September 03, 2020, 08:26:02 AM »
OK, this one is incredibly outrageous - Trump appears to encourage North Carolinians to vote twice to test the system

The f-ing President of the United states is asking citizens to commit a crime.  Either way, HE wins - it sows doubt about the election outcome if they don't, and it also might get him some more votes, or get people arrested which is THEIR problem...  The high-stakes deterrent was put there to discourage the idea of trying it, not to turn how-ever-many Trump loyalists in to criminals, or blow up the election...  *Giant face-palm followed by banging head against the wall*  This really cannot be happening.  November is coming way too late this year...

Quote
The President later told people to send in their ballots, saying, "Send them in strong, whether it's solicited or unsolicited. The absentees are fine. You have to work to get them, you know."
"And you send them in, but you go to vote. And if they haven't counted it, you can vote. So that's the way I feel," he said.
Trump essentially encouraged voters to test the state's voting system.
According to North Carolina law, it's a felony "for any person with intent to commit a fraud to register or vote at more than one precinct or more than one time, or to induce another to do so, in the same primary or election, or to vote illegally at any primary or election."

Clearly, if you send in an absentee or mail-in ballot, do not try to vote in person also, 'just in case'.  The President should know that.

If the systems are in place, they will not be able tocommit a crime. They will cast a provisional ballot in person, that will be matched up with their mail in ballot, and only the mail in ballot will be counted.

What it will do is gum up the whole process if they have to process thousands of provisional ballots that were cast just to test it.

In my small town we use paper ballots. I check in to vote, then check out after voting, but there are no identifying marks on my actual ballot to connect my specific ballot to me. Is this unsual? How on earth would a system like this match a mail-in ballot to a provisional one?

In Michigan, the clerks maintain e-pollbooks, which are updated the night before election day to reflect all the validly registered voters in each precinct, as well as which voters have been issued an absentee ballot and those whose absentee ballots have already been returned and logged in the system. When a voter who has received but not voted an absentee ballot tries to check in at the precinct, we get an alert on the e-pollbook computer. They have three options at that point: surrender the absentee ballot onsite and receive a standard ballot, use the absentee ballot and turn it into the clerk's office, or apply for a provisional ballot. In the latter case, if the person who applied for the provisional ballot had already voted, the second in-person ballot doesn't count.

All returned, completed absentee ballots received by the clerk's office are logged in the pollbook and checked to make sure that the signature on the outside of the ballot matches both the signature on file for that registered voter and the signature used on the absentee ballot application. Currently registered voters cannot apply for and receive an absentee ballot on election day; at that point, they are required to vote in person at their precinct. This is a safeguard against someone voting twice by waiting until the precinct e-pollbooks are locked.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3927 on: September 03, 2020, 09:42:15 AM »
It is almost as if going to an all mail-in system would solve a lot of problems... I'm glad I live in a state where that is the case.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3928 on: September 03, 2020, 10:07:22 AM »
The signature thing worries me. How many people sign exactly the same way every time? I know my own signature has changed since I registered for my current address 20 years ago.

FIPurpose

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3929 on: September 03, 2020, 10:30:14 AM »
The signature thing worries me. How many people sign exactly the same way every time? I know my own signature has changed since I registered for my current address 20 years ago.

I'm assuming that they have pretty liberal standards as to checking what a signature looks like. My guess is that a program of some sort does an initial filter/automation, then people review the for any obvious errors on the machine part, the signatures are then reviewed by a bi-partisan panel.

Some places will likely contact you if your signature couldn't be verified.

Here is the law written for WA voting signature verification standards: https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=29A.40.110

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3930 on: September 03, 2020, 10:43:01 AM »
The signature thing worries me. How many people sign exactly the same way every time? I know my own signature has changed since I registered for my current address 20 years ago.

I'm assuming that they have pretty liberal standards as to checking what a signature looks like. My guess is that a program of some sort does an initial filter/automation, then people review the for any obvious errors on the machine part, the signatures are then reviewed by a bi-partisan panel.

Some places will likely contact you if your signature couldn't be verified.

Here is the law written for WA voting signature verification standards: https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=29A.40.110
Given the current litigious attitude of the Republican Party I wouldn't bet on liberal standards for a valid signature, particularly in a swing district.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3931 on: September 03, 2020, 10:45:08 AM »
The signature thing worries me. How many people sign exactly the same way every time? I know my own signature has changed since I registered for my current address 20 years ago.

I'm assuming that they have pretty liberal standards as to checking what a signature looks like. My guess is that a program of some sort does an initial filter/automation, then people review the for any obvious errors on the machine part, the signatures are then reviewed by a bi-partisan panel.

Some places will likely contact you if your signature couldn't be verified.

Here is the law written for WA voting signature verification standards: https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=29A.40.110

Yes. Our local clerks call people if there are issues with the returned absentee ballots. Apparently forgetting to sign the envelope is a recurring issue. We have to apply for absentee ballots before each election (default is still voting in person), and your signature gets checked both at that stage and when you return the ballot.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3932 on: September 03, 2020, 10:48:37 AM »
It is almost as if going to an all mail-in system would solve a lot of problems... I'm glad I live in a state where that is the case.

I certainly see the advantages, but I and many others would miss the option to vote in person. I had a blast working the polls in August, and I've learned so much about election processes and security from talking to our local clerks over the past year. Some people don't trust the security of the mail or drop boxes or the absentee ballot counting process and want to put their own ballots in the tabulator.

OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3933 on: September 03, 2020, 11:01:23 AM »
The signature thing worries me. How many people sign exactly the same way every time? I know my own signature has changed since I registered for my current address 20 years ago.

I'm assuming that they have pretty liberal standards as to checking what a signature looks like. My guess is that a program of some sort does an initial filter/automation, then people review the for any obvious errors on the machine part, the signatures are then reviewed by a bi-partisan panel.

Some places will likely contact you if your signature couldn't be verified.

Here is the law written for WA voting signature verification standards: https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=29A.40.110
Given the current litigious attitude of the Republican Party I wouldn't bet on liberal standards for a valid signature, particularly in a swing district.

Last year I got sick of my scrawled signature and have been experimenting with trying to make it look like my actual name. I’m not sure what my original even looked like. I may be in trouble here.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90534923/voting-by-mail-is-secure-but-it-has-a-seriously-low-tech-downside-your-signature
« Last Edit: September 03, 2020, 11:08:47 AM by OzzieandHarriet »

Samuel

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3934 on: September 03, 2020, 11:15:37 AM »
Interesting opinion piece on how Democrats may need to be careful of what they wish/push for when it comes to voting by mail.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/02/democrats-mail-in-voting-407939


No matter what anyone says or does, there is inevitably going to be more mail-in voting this fall, given fears of the coronavirus. States and localities should prepare as early and as best as they can. But in-person voting is superior. Only about one-hundredth of 1 percent of in-person votes are rejected, whereas rejection rates of 1 percent are common with mail-in votes, and many states exceeded that during their primaries this year.

This should be a five-alarm worry for Democrats. According to polling, almost twice as many Biden supporters as Trump supporters say they’ll vote by mail this year. According to NPR, studies show “that voters of color and young voters are more likely than others to have their ballots not count.” In another universe, if Trump were urging Democrats to stay away from the polls and instead use the method much more likely to get their votes discarded, it’d be attacked as a dastardly voter-suppression scheme.


...

In its primaries, New York state delivered up the perfect storm of ramped-up mail-in voting, inadequate preparation and bureaucratic ineptitude. In the 12th Congressional District, more than half of the votes were absentee. It took weeks to declare a winner and the number of rejected mail ballots was roughly three times Rep. Carolyn Maloney’s 3,700-vote margin of victory over challenger Suraj Patel.

If this had happened in Georgia in a race a Republican narrowly won over a Democrat, it would be it considered a notorious offense against democracy itself.

It’s easy to see how what happened in New York easily could preview a close general election. NPR notes that more than 23,000 absentee ballots were rejected in Wisconsin’s primary this year, exceeding Trump’s margin in the state in 2016. Nearly 40,000 were rejected in Pennsylvania, where Trump won by 44,000 votes in 2016.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3935 on: September 03, 2020, 12:07:32 PM »
The signature thing worries me. How many people sign exactly the same way every time? I know my own signature has changed since I registered for my current address 20 years ago.

I'm assuming that they have pretty liberal standards as to checking what a signature looks like. My guess is that a program of some sort does an initial filter/automation, then people review the for any obvious errors on the machine part, the signatures are then reviewed by a bi-partisan panel.

Some places will likely contact you if your signature couldn't be verified.

Here is the law written for WA voting signature verification standards: https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=29A.40.110
Given the current litigious attitude of the Republican Party I wouldn't bet on liberal standards for a valid signature, particularly in a swing district.

Last year I got sick of my scrawled signature and have been experimenting with trying to make it look like my actual name. I’m not sure what my original even looked like. I may be in trouble here.

https://www.fastcompany.com/90534923/voting-by-mail-is-secure-but-it-has-a-seriously-low-tech-downside-your-signature

Bring a photo ID to your clerk's office and update your signature on file in person. I'm trying to improve my chicken scratch and will probably have to do the same thing.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3936 on: September 03, 2020, 03:01:02 PM »
There are times laws get broken, and commentators mention that no one has actually ever been prosecuted for breaking that law.

This doesn't seem to be the case for voting twice (note: date on the article is two years ago): https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/02/us/arrested-voting-north-carolina.html

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3937 on: September 03, 2020, 03:09:51 PM »
The voting regulation details matter, and will likely be legal hot points in mid-November, but the overall Trump strategy appears to be to create as much smoke and chaff around the voting process itself that he has additional room to sue over any result he doesn't like or attempt to use the courts to affect the counting process. The lessons of 2000 are strong and he is more than willing to do unethical things to get a result he wants. And this is happening within the context of the GOP (mostly McConnell) repeatedly blocking attempts to increase election security. This is in part due to GOP reluctance to anger Trump, who would view (or at least tweet) it as being an admission that Russia interfered on his behalf in 2016 (which every legitimate investigation, including by GOP led committee has shown to be the case).

Ugh.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3938 on: September 03, 2020, 03:18:08 PM »
There are times laws get broken, and commentators mention that no one has actually ever been prosecuted for breaking that law.

This doesn't seem to be the case for voting twice (note: date on the article is two years ago): https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/02/us/arrested-voting-north-carolina.html

I absolutely endorse arresting someone for voting twice.  It sends the correct message that, if allowed to 'slide' and become endemic, it subverts democracy.  Not even Trump's vote is worth more than anyone else's.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3939 on: September 03, 2020, 03:57:37 PM »
You can take that position if you want, of course. I think it's a pretty cynical and actually an innacurate position. This movement is getting traction. I'm seeing apolitical people post about BLM and starting dialogues. I'm seeing conservative people being swayed where they're not automatically taking the side of the police.

It's ironic, liberal people defending things like the term "defund the police" are condescending of people criticizing it (not saying you were here but in general) with the critique, you need to just take some time and energy and dig into the issue. It's ironic because as a movement they're not taking the time and energy to properly articulate a phrase that means what they want it to mean, even when other simultaneous groups, as mentioned above, are literally promoting true defunding of the police where there is no money at all therefore no police and liberals can't be bothered to repudiate the phrase and promote what they're really wanting.

We've discussed the term before on this very forum and you may have posted in that thread. Most (all?) think it's a bad phrasing. The originators needed some marketing. Unfortunately, that train has left the station.

My point is that it doesn't matter. Biden's plan is out there and in no way defunds (per the dictionary definition) the police but the GOP is going to use it as an attack anyway.

Is it a poor choice of words? Definitely.
Have the Democrats promoted what they really wanted? Yes, in both Biden's plan and in actual cities where they're looking at "defunding" the police.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/joe-biden-defund-the-police-position

Quote from: foxnews
In June, when "defund the police" became a rallying cry for many of the protesters demanding justice for George Floyd, Biden called for police reform but said he did not support defunding police departments.

Meanwhile, Republican US Representatives are posting doctored videos.

Quote from: foxnews
That video interview resurfaced this week when Rep. Steve Scalise, R-La., removed an edited video of Biden and Barkan he posted on Twitter after backlash that the clip was "doctored" to portray the Democratic presidential nominee as supporting the defunding of police.
[...]
The context of the original exchange made clear that Barkan was talking about redirecting police funding, but the edit drew strong criticism nevertheless.
(bolded)
That's fair. I'm probably projecting because I've talked to people recently who truly want to eliminate police. I'm glad that Biden is coming down against that idea. It's worth coming down strongly against.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3940 on: September 03, 2020, 06:12:56 PM »
It's starting to get boring watching Barr act as the President's personal attack dog, body guard, lawyer, and bullshitter. I've completely forgotten what an Attorney General is supposed to do.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3941 on: September 03, 2020, 06:23:10 PM »
Trump is trying really hard to change perceptions of Biden to make him look like he's under the influence of crazy left-wing radicals, but Biden is from the New Democrat faction of the Democratic Party. That's the faction of the party that is centrist, socially liberal, economically conservative, and quite moderate. Other New Democrats include people like Obama, the Clintons, former New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, and former Texas governor Ann Richards.

the_gastropod

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3942 on: September 03, 2020, 07:07:56 PM »
It's incredibly sad to watch our democracy be stolen and stomped to death in real time...with 40%+ of the population cheering it on

Unfortunately, in a democracy the people get the government they deserve.

Yeaaa, but that’s not what we’ve got in the US. Every facet of our system benefits one party:
- In Presidential elections, Democrats must get ~3-4% more votes to win, thanks to the electoral college
- It is virtually impossible for Democrats to get a 60 seat majority (necessary to do anything meaningful to actually improve this system) in the senate. Half of the Senate represents just ~20% of the US population.
- The house has far too few representatives to proportionately represent US districts. Small states, again, have more representation than states with large populations.
- The courts... presidents appoint judges, and every Republican President in 30 years has lost the popular vote. Yet 5 of the 9 justices on the Supreme Court were appointed by Republicans. Which says nothing of lower courts.

We have a huge mess. I don’t know how this gets resolved. Republicans will not give any inch to fix any of this while it benefits them.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3943 on: September 03, 2020, 07:34:01 PM »
This is the worst economic crisis of our lifetimes. Yet 30% of Americans think the economy is fine

It really is amazing that Trump and a significant number of Americans are talking about how great this year is going!  I guess, if you only look at the stock market and live in an insular bubble, things look pretty good?

Quote
A new study from the Pew Research Center says 69% of Americans think the current economic situation is bad, while 30% think it's good. By comparison, only 17% thought the economy was in good shape in 2009, the worst year of the Great Recession.
That's striking, because by a lot of metrics, the current downturn is a lot worse than the years following the financial crisis: Far more jobs were lost, unemployment is higher, the economy contracted more sharply and the government is spending more.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3944 on: September 03, 2020, 09:33:29 PM »
It's incredibly sad to watch our democracy be stolen and stomped to death in real time...with 40%+ of the population cheering it on

Unfortunately, in a democracy the people get the government they deserve.

Yeaaa, but that’s not what we’ve got in the US. Every facet of our system benefits one party:
- In Presidential elections, Democrats must get ~3-4% more votes to win, thanks to the electoral college
- It is virtually impossible for Democrats to get a 60 seat majority (necessary to do anything meaningful to actually improve this system) in the senate. Half of the Senate represents just ~20% of the US population.
- The house has far too few representatives to proportionately represent US districts. Small states, again, have more representation than states with large populations.
- The courts... presidents appoint judges, and every Republican President in 30 years has lost the popular vote. Yet 5 of the 9 justices on the Supreme Court were appointed by Republicans. Which says nothing of lower courts.

We have a huge mess. I don’t know how this gets resolved. Republicans will not give any inch to fix any of this while it benefits them.

The manner in which we implement our elections is broken. I'm not as concerned about the Electoral College in principle, but we have 50 separate methods for holding an election that are expected to align and contribute to a shared outcome, and as we've discovered the last few months it only takes a few people to derail the entire process. 

Trump is trying really hard to change perceptions of Biden to make him look like he's under the influence of crazy left-wing radicals, but Biden is from the New Democrat faction of the Democratic Party. That's the faction of the party that is centrist, socially liberal, economically conservative, and quite moderate. Other New Democrats include people like Obama, the Clintons, former New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, and former Texas governor Ann Richards.

Maybe his team crafted anti-Sanders talking points early on and then had nothing for Biden and said "screw it, use what we've got."

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3945 on: September 04, 2020, 02:50:31 AM »
Here's the Atlantic story on Trump calling America's war dead "losers" and "suckers" -

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/

A great uncle of mine was conscripted into the British Army in WW1 and was killed in action not that far away from Belleau Wood.  When you see pictures of those rows of white gravestones in military cemetaries one of those gravestones could be his.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3946 on: September 04, 2020, 05:35:50 AM »
This is the worst economic crisis of our lifetimes. Yet 30% of Americans think the economy is fine

It really is amazing that Trump and a significant number of Americans are talking about how great this year is going!  I guess, if you only look at the stock market and live in an insular bubble, things look pretty good?

Quote
A new study from the Pew Research Center says 69% of Americans think the current economic situation is bad, while 30% think it's good. By comparison, only 17% thought the economy was in good shape in 2009, the worst year of the Great Recession.
That's striking, because by a lot of metrics, the current downturn is a lot worse than the years following the financial crisis: Far more jobs were lost, unemployment is higher, the economy contracted more sharply and the government is spending more.

With regards to the economy, people are most influenced by their own personal situation and those of their immediate family.  Another facet of this was how many people surveyed thought we were still in a recession in 2010 (well into the recovery), because their personal reality was one of recent economic instability.

Absolutely by most quantitative metrics the economy is anything but “fine”.  The newly-unemployed, long-term unemployed and business bankruptcies are all drastically bad.  But if you and your kin have retained their jobs and have any money in the stock market (e.g. 401k) you are likely to have a much better opinion on the ‘economy’ than someone who’s been furloughed or laid-off since April.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3947 on: September 04, 2020, 06:26:45 AM »

With regards to the economy, people are most influenced by their own personal situation and those of their immediate family.  Another facet of this was how many people surveyed thought we were still in a recession in 2010 (well into the recovery), because their personal reality was one of recent economic instability.


Most of my friends have no idea that there's an actual book definition for recession. They all just think it means "the job market sucks" in some loosely defined meaning of the phrase.

caracarn

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3948 on: September 04, 2020, 06:46:01 AM »
Trump is trying really hard to change perceptions of Biden to make him look like he's under the influence of crazy left-wing radicals, but Biden is from the New Democrat faction of the Democratic Party. That's the faction of the party that is centrist, socially liberal, economically conservative, and quite moderate. Other New Democrats include people like Obama, the Clintons, former New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, and former Texas governor Ann Richards.

Maybe his team crafted anti-Sanders talking points early on and then had nothing for Biden and said "screw it, use what we've got."

This has been tossed out for the better part of the last two weeks as what happened.  They expected Sanders to be the winner.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3949 on: September 04, 2020, 06:49:25 AM »
Trump is trying really hard to change perceptions of Biden to make him look like he's under the influence of crazy left-wing radicals, but Biden is from the New Democrat faction of the Democratic Party. That's the faction of the party that is centrist, socially liberal, economically conservative, and quite moderate. Other New Democrats include people like Obama, the Clintons, former New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, and former Texas governor Ann Richards.

Maybe his team crafted anti-Sanders talking points early on and then had nothing for Biden and said "screw it, use what we've got."

This has been tossed out for the better part of the last two weeks as what happened.  They expected Sanders to be the winner.

Seriously? I was just trying to be a smart ass.