Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297493 times)

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3500 on: August 13, 2020, 07:09:25 PM »
Latest Trumpery, attacking Kamala Harris' citizenship. The guy is a frickin idiot. He really only has a couple of low-down, pathetic tactics, and he hauls them out at every opportunity.

MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3501 on: August 13, 2020, 07:19:37 PM »
With a 91% Republican approval rating, he certainly appears to stand for everything Republicans like.
That's probably true.

That doesn't, however, mean Republicans like everything Trump does.

There is a significant difference between those perspectives.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3502 on: August 13, 2020, 07:30:45 PM »
Latest Trumpery, attacking Kamala Harris' citizenship. The guy is a frickin idiot. He really only has a couple of low-down, pathetic tactics, and he hauls them out at every opportunity.

For anyone wondering, this is what she means: Trump And His Campaign Amplify 'Birther' Conspiracy Against Kamala Harris

He has no idea what it means to be an American. No fucking clue, and since he doesnít understand it, heís trying to destroy it (like all fascists and cult leaders).

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3503 on: August 13, 2020, 07:35:03 PM »
Latest Trumpery, attacking Kamala Harris' citizenship. The guy is a frickin idiot. He really only has a couple of low-down, pathetic tactics, and he hauls them out at every opportunity.

For anyone wondering, this is what she means: Trump And His Campaign Amplify 'Birther' Conspiracy Against Kamala Harris

He has no idea what it means to be an American. No fucking clue, and since he doesnít understand it, heís trying to destroy it (like all fascists and cult leaders).

I would be amused, if I weren't outraged. I think if we were to look for a personification of modern America, the very first criteria should be multi racial.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3504 on: August 13, 2020, 08:35:37 PM »
With a 91% Republican approval rating, he certainly appears to stand for everything Republicans like.
That's probably true.

That doesn't, however, mean Republicans like everything Trump does.

There is a significant difference between those perspectives.

Sure.  And there were probably a lot of Nazis who liked Hitler for building the autobahn not for engineering the holocaust.  That's historically been a pretty piss-poor excuse to support a monster though.

MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3505 on: August 13, 2020, 08:46:39 PM »
With a 91% Republican approval rating, he certainly appears to stand for everything Republicans like.
That's probably true.

That doesn't, however, mean Republicans like everything Trump does.

There is a significant difference between those perspectives.

Sure.  And there were probably a lot of Nazis who liked Hitler for building the autobahn not for engineering the holocaust.  That's historically been a pretty piss-poor excuse to support a monster though.
No need to go back that far.

Don't know whether 91% is the correct number, but back in the day it could have been said "With a 91% [Democratic] approval rating, [Bill Clinton] certainly appears to stand for everything [Democrats] like."  I'm going to assume that most Democrats didn't approve of workplace sexual harassment, but they still "approved of Clinton" for other reasons.

Same applies to Republicans and Trump.

Norioch

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3506 on: August 13, 2020, 09:58:10 PM »
34 states won't accept mail ballots if they arrive at election offices after election day, even if they're postmarked before election day.
https://www.newsweek.com/these-states-invalidate-mail-ballots-after-election-day-1522060

Among those 34 states are Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, Michigan and Minnesota. That's the election. Trump stalls the ballots in post offices for a few days and he's successfully subverted democracy.

We need to get the word out, fast, everywhere, that voters cannot trust that their vote will be counted if they mail it back. They need to deliver their vote in person. If Trump gets away with this then it's the end of American democracy.

Davnasty

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3507 on: August 13, 2020, 10:42:25 PM »
With a 91% Republican approval rating, he certainly appears to stand for everything Republicans like.
That's probably true.

That doesn't, however, mean Republicans like everything Trump does.

There is a significant difference between those perspectives.

Sure.  And there were probably a lot of Nazis who liked Hitler for building the autobahn not for engineering the holocaust.  That's historically been a pretty piss-poor excuse to support a monster though.
No need to go back that far.

Don't know whether 91% is the correct number, but back in the day it could have been said "With a 91% [Democratic] approval rating, [Bill Clinton] certainly appears to stand for everything [Democrats] like."  I'm going to assume that most Democrats didn't approve of workplace sexual harassment, but they still "approved of Clinton" for other reasons.

Same applies to Republicans and Trump.

I'm hesitant to acknowledge such a ridiculous equivalence but this is not about sexual harassment or any other personal affair of Donald Trump. The very next comment after yours is a sincere (and justified) request that citizens personally take steps to avoid the president's obvious attempt at suppressing a fair election.

Do a majority of Republicans approve of that?

MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3508 on: August 13, 2020, 10:49:57 PM »
I'm hesitant to acknowledge such a ridiculous equivalence but this is not about sexual harassment or any other personal affair of Donald Trump.
What's ridiculous about supporting a particular politician even if not supporting some (or even many) of that politician's actions?

Many Democrats did so for Clinton, and many Republicans do so for Trump.  Acknowledging that might help folks realize voters on "the other side" may not be all that different from those on "our side".

Davnasty

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3509 on: August 13, 2020, 11:11:01 PM »
I'm hesitant to acknowledge such a ridiculous equivalence but this is not about sexual harassment or any other personal affair of Donald Trump.
What's ridiculous about supporting a particular politician even if not supporting some (or even many) of that politician's actions?

Many Democrats did so for Clinton, and many Republicans do so for Trump.  Acknowledging that might help folks realize voters on "the other side" may not be all that different from those on "our side".

That's not what I said, I said the equivalence is ridiculous.

I'll admit that "approve" can mean different things to different people but I would posit that giving your approval to a politician should mean you agree with their policy as well as their performance. Big picture, not details.

In reality I suspect many Republicans continue to check the box when surveyed because they view the results of those surveys as indicative of whether or not their team is winning. Personally I don't give your average voter half the credit GuitarStv does by assuming they actually understand the policy or the actions of the people they vote for and approve of.

MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3510 on: August 13, 2020, 11:16:03 PM »
I'm hesitant to acknowledge such a ridiculous equivalence but this is not about sexual harassment or any other personal affair of Donald Trump.
What's ridiculous about supporting a particular politician even if not supporting some (or even many) of that politician's actions?

Many Democrats did so for Clinton, and many Republicans do so for Trump.  Acknowledging that might help folks realize voters on "the other side" may not be all that different from those on "our side".

That's not what I said, I said the equivalence is ridiculous.
Either we disagree on how to characterize the same thing, or we have different equivalences in mind.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3511 on: August 14, 2020, 03:17:23 AM »
Trump keeps saying the quiet part out loud:

Today on Fox Trump said outright that he is blocking US Postal funds because Democrats want to expand mail-in voting.

"Now, they need that money in order to make the post office work, so it can take all these millions and millions of ballots" Trump said in an interview with Fox. "now, if we don't make a deal, that means they don't get the money."

Our president has just everyone he won't give the postal service the money that its own Board of Governors says it needs because it would allow more people to vote by mail during a pandemic.

While this is nothing new, this "public confession" may be a fertile legal ground to fight a result when Trump wins.
What do the more US law educated people here think?

Quote
I would be amused, if I weren't outraged. I think if we were to look for a personification of modern America, the very first criteria should be multi racial.
Yeah, If you want a quick cognitive dissonance in a Trump fan, ask them what "Symbols of America" are. Like, the Statue of Freedom?
If the answer is yes, quote that poem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus#Text_of_the_poem

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3512 on: August 14, 2020, 05:19:11 AM »
Note that Oregon is an entirely vote-by-mail state and both Portland and Eugene lean Democrat.

USPS removes mailboxes in Portland and Eugene, cites Ďdeclining mail volumeí (source: oregonlive.com)

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3513 on: August 14, 2020, 05:49:59 AM »
Iím so sickened.

I really think Trump is going to steal this. Mail-in voting suppression will be how he does it.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3514 on: August 14, 2020, 06:07:48 AM »
With a 91% Republican approval rating, he certainly appears to stand for everything Republicans like.
That's probably true.

That doesn't, however, mean Republicans like everything Trump does.

There is a significant difference between those perspectives.

Sure.  And there were probably a lot of Nazis who liked Hitler for building the autobahn not for engineering the holocaust.  That's historically been a pretty piss-poor excuse to support a monster though.
No need to go back that far.

Don't know whether 91% is the correct number, but back in the day it could have been said "With a 91% [Democratic] approval rating, [Bill Clinton] certainly appears to stand for everything [Democrats] like."  I'm going to assume that most Democrats didn't approve of workplace sexual harassment, but they still "approved of Clinton" for other reasons.

Same applies to Republicans and Trump.

I'm not talking about Trump's lack of character on a personal level . . . his having sex with other women while his wife is in the hospital giving birth to his child, his wanting to fuck his daughter, his paying porn stars for sex, cheating on each of his past wives with his future wives, etc.  These things (though reprehensible) don't really impact his presidency or his ability to lead, so I can understand a person overlooking them as many people overlooked Clinton's history of sex scandals - when they're happy with the policies enacted.

I'm talking about leadership actions that actively damage the country as a whole.  Attacks on gay and transgender people, on non-Christian people, placing completely unqualified family members in high government positions, removing infants from their families/imprisoning them and then failing to be able to return them, overt racism in both speech and policy, historically unprecedented deference and kowtowing to Russia, suppression of freedom of speech, unambiguous discussion of voter suppression and subversion of democracy, breaking treaties and promises with friends and allies for no discernible gain, openly abusing political power for personal enrichment, constant lying about medical advice in the middle of a pandemic.

These are the policies that Republicans unambiguously support and approve in their support of Trump.

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3515 on: August 14, 2020, 06:20:02 AM »
I still think Trump is just a symptom.

His policies are just amoral and opportunistic. To the extent some of them are immoral and evil (e.g. children in cages), they are usually designed by someone like Stephen Miller. Trump provides a good operating environment for them - but is not personally causing them.

OTOH, many Republican policies are immoral and evil by design.
1. Aparthaid: https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression
2. Stealing $2T from our kids generation to line the pockets of the 1% - i.e. TCJA of 2017.
3. Southern Strategy.
4. Gerrymandering

These are all traditional Republican operating priorities that Trump, if anything, has somewhat messed up by his inept fumbling. Someone more properly evil and Republican would have done a much better job of keeping the Blacks from the polling station, and stolen more money from the kids etc. etc. etc.

To that extend, I can fully understand MDM's frustration with Trump.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3516 on: August 14, 2020, 06:27:17 AM »
Trump keeps saying the quiet part out loud:

Today on Fox Trump said outright that he is blocking US Postal funds because Democrats want to expand mail-in voting.

"Now, they need that money in order to make the post office work, so it can take all these millions and millions of ballots" Trump said in an interview with Fox. "now, if we don't make a deal, that means they don't get the money."

Our president has just everyone he won't give the postal service the money that its own Board of Governors says it needs because it would allow more people to vote by mail during a pandemic.

While this is nothing new, this "public confession" may be a fertile legal ground to fight a result when Trump wins.
What do the more US law educated people here think?

Quote
I would be amused, if I weren't outraged. I think if we were to look for a personification of modern America, the very first criteria should be multi racial.
Yeah, If you want a quick cognitive dissonance in a Trump fan, ask them what "Symbols of America" are. Like, the Statue of Freedom?
If the answer is yes, quote that poem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Colossus#Text_of_the_poem

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


I'm not an expert on law. I did recently finish listening to an excellent podcast called "Fiasco" about the Florida 2000 recount. One of the themes of that podcast is that Bush benefitted greatly from the fact that a narrative took shape on election night that he was the winner. A second theme was that he managed to win important victories in the realm of public opinion, and these probably affected the eventual outcome more than any true accounting of the votes could have.

In other words, what matters on election night is that a public narrative of Biden winning has to build salience. If Trump is able to seem like the winner, then he will probably find a way to continue as the winner.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3517 on: August 14, 2020, 06:30:08 AM »
I still think Trump is just a symptom.

His policies are just amoral and opportunistic. To the extent some of them are immoral and evil (e.g. children in cages), they are usually designed by someone like Stephen Miller. Trump provides a good operating environment for them - but is not personally causing them.

OTOH, many Republican policies are immoral and evil by design.
1. Aparthaid: https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression
2. Stealing $2T from our kids generation to line the pockets of the 1% - i.e. TCJA of 2017.
3. Southern Strategy.
4. Gerrymandering

These are all traditional Republican operating priorities that Trump, if anything, has somewhat messed up by his inept fumbling. Someone more properly evil and Republican would have done a much better job of keeping the Blacks from the polling station, and stolen more money from the kids etc. etc. etc.

To that extend, I can fully understand MDM's frustration with Trump.
Your phrasing suggests that children in cages is not immoral or evil.  Did you really mean to say that?

And as for saying that Trump is not personally responsible for children in cages, what's your argument?  That he fails the test of being intellectually capable of responsibility or that he was just following orders?

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3518 on: August 14, 2020, 06:41:34 AM »
I still think Trump is just a symptom.

His policies are just amoral and opportunistic. To the extent some of them are immoral and evil (e.g. children in cages), they are usually designed by someone like Stephen Miller. Trump provides a good operating environment for them - but is not personally causing them.

OTOH, many Republican policies are immoral and evil by design.
1. Aparthaid: https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression
2. Stealing $2T from our kids generation to line the pockets of the 1% - i.e. TCJA of 2017.
3. Southern Strategy.
4. Gerrymandering

These are all traditional Republican operating priorities that Trump, if anything, has somewhat messed up by his inept fumbling. Someone more properly evil and Republican would have done a much better job of keeping the Blacks from the polling station, and stolen more money from the kids etc. etc. etc.

To that extend, I can fully understand MDM's frustration with Trump.
Your phrasing suggests that children in cages is not immoral or evil.  Did you really mean to say that?

And as for saying that Trump is not personally responsible for children in cages, what's your argument?  That he fails the test of being intellectually capable of responsibility or that he was just following orders?
Not sure where you saw the bolded. The phrase "to the extent" is probably the culprit causing confusion. I did not intend that to mean that children in cages is evil only to some extent. Another way of reading that phrase would be "while some of the things this administration have done are unquestionably evil...".

My argument is a refutation of the republican "Good German" arguments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_German. I posit that far more evil policies (when measured by their adverse impact on Americans) were initiated well before Trump and were enthusiastically endorsed and supported by most republican voters.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3519 on: August 14, 2020, 07:06:54 AM »
I still think Trump is just a symptom.

His policies are just amoral and opportunistic. To the extent some of them are immoral and evil (e.g. children in cages), they are usually designed by someone like Stephen Miller. Trump provides a good operating environment for them - but is not personally causing them.

OTOH, many Republican policies are immoral and evil by design.
1. Aparthaid: https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression
2. Stealing $2T from our kids generation to line the pockets of the 1% - i.e. TCJA of 2017.
3. Southern Strategy.
4. Gerrymandering

These are all traditional Republican operating priorities that Trump, if anything, has somewhat messed up by his inept fumbling. Someone more properly evil and Republican would have done a much better job of keeping the Blacks from the polling station, and stolen more money from the kids etc. etc. etc.

To that extend, I can fully understand MDM's frustration with Trump.
Your phrasing suggests that children in cages is not immoral or evil.  Did you really mean to say that?

And as for saying that Trump is not personally responsible for children in cages, what's your argument?  That he fails the test of being intellectually capable of responsibility or that he was just following orders?
Not sure where you saw the bolded. The phrase "to the extent" is probably the culprit causing confusion. I did not intend that to mean that children in cages is evil only to some extent. Another way of reading that phrase would be "while some of the things this administration have done are unquestionably evil...".

My argument is a refutation of the republican "Good German" arguments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_German. I posit that far more evil policies (when measured by their adverse impact on Americans) were initiated well before Trump and were enthusiastically endorsed and supported by most republican voters.

The Trump administration is the logical outcome of the last 40 years of Republican strategy.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3520 on: August 14, 2020, 07:07:45 AM »
I still think Trump is just a symptom.

His policies are just amoral and opportunistic. To the extent some of them are immoral and evil (e.g. children in cages), they are usually designed by someone like Stephen Miller. Trump provides a good operating environment for them - but is not personally causing them.

OTOH, many Republican policies are immoral and evil by design.
1. Aparthaid: https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression
2. Stealing $2T from our kids generation to line the pockets of the 1% - i.e. TCJA of 2017.
3. Southern Strategy.
4. Gerrymandering

These are all traditional Republican operating priorities that Trump, if anything, has somewhat messed up by his inept fumbling. Someone more properly evil and Republican would have done a much better job of keeping the Blacks from the polling station, and stolen more money from the kids etc. etc. etc.

To that extend, I can fully understand MDM's frustration with Trump.
Your phrasing suggests that children in cages is not immoral or evil.  Did you really mean to say that?

And as for saying that Trump is not personally responsible for children in cages, what's your argument?  That he fails the test of being intellectually capable of responsibility or that he was just following orders?
Not sure where you saw the bolded. The phrase "to the extent" is probably the culprit causing confusion. I did not intend that to mean that children in cages is evil only to some extent. Another way of reading that phrase would be "while some of the things this administration have done are unquestionably evil...".

My argument is a refutation of the republican "Good German" arguments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_German. I posit that far more evil policies (when measured by their adverse impact on Americans) were initiated well before Trump and were enthusiastically endorsed and supported by most republican voters.
It was principally "on the other hand" - which suggests that children in cages is not immoral and evil by design.

And do you really measure evil only by its adverse impact on Americans?

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3521 on: August 14, 2020, 07:19:58 AM »
It was principally "on the other hand" - which suggests that children in cages is not immoral and evil by design.

That is correct. I don't know if it was evil by design. My impression is it was initiated callously and then embraced afterwards. If there was conscious design, that was not done by Trump and certainly not the average Republican voter.

That defence does not work for other, more long standing Jim Crow policies and other tomfoolery I cited.

And do you really measure evil only by its adverse impact on Americans?

Yes.

Sometimes both choices are evil. Consider the thought experiment where you can drone strike a high value terrorist target. Would you target a school/hospital to take him out? Probably no! Would you target a big compound where he lives with his extended family? Probably yes!!

Measuring evil by it's human impact is often necessary in real world.

Note also: Americans often mean "human beings" when we say "Americans". That is the case for me in this instance. This depends on context, obviously.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 07:23:15 AM by ctuser1 »

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3522 on: August 14, 2020, 07:37:20 AM »
For your information, when you suggest that "American" = "human being" the rest of us are not reassured.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3523 on: August 14, 2020, 07:48:48 AM »

MDM

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3524 on: August 14, 2020, 11:38:31 AM »
I'm talking about leadership actions that actively damage the country as a whole.  ....
That's your opinion, and given that it's your opinion and you think Democratic policies would be better or at least no worse it's no surprise you would choose to vote for Biden if you could.

Reasonable people can disagree with the fact or relative importance of those topics, compare with what they think about Democratic policies, and vote for Trump (or Libertarian, or Green, or...).

js82

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3525 on: August 14, 2020, 11:51:46 AM »
Iím so sickened.

I really think Trump is going to steal this. Mail-in voting suppression will be how he does it.

One of the nice things about modern data science is that it's going to be REALLY hard to hide a systematic attempt to manipulate mail-in voting.

When you have by-precinct or by-county data it's going to become painfully obvious if certain locales track in ways that don't make sense relative to their demographics.  Or if blue precincts suddenly have dramatically-lower turnout than red ones.

Not that it's much solace if it happens - but this is a problem that's well within our capability to detect.

OTOH, many Republican policies are immoral and evil by design.
1. Aparthaid: https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression
2. Stealing $2T from our kids generation to line the pockets of the 1% - i.e. TCJA of 2017.
3. Southern Strategy.
4. Gerrymandering

For the sake of pointing it out, #4 is not strictly a "Republican policy" - both Democrats and Republicans tried to do it during the last redistricting cycle.
 Republicans just did a lot more of it because they controlled more state governments during the last round of redistricting.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 11:58:46 AM by js82 »

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3526 on: August 14, 2020, 12:04:56 PM »
I'm talking about leadership actions that actively damage the country as a whole.  ....
That's your opinion, and given that it's your opinion and you think Democratic policies would be better or at least no worse it's no surprise you would choose to vote for Biden if you could.

Some Democratic policies, sure.  But there are some fiscal policies that used to be Republican that would be better.

Lying about a pandemic and telling people to do the opposite of what public health professionals say to do is was not a Republican policy until Trump made it one though.  These actions are absolutely and objectively damaging to the country as a whole.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3527 on: August 14, 2020, 12:13:18 PM »
I'm talking about leadership actions that actively damage the country as a whole.  ....
That's your opinion, and given that it's your opinion and you think Democratic policies would be better or at least no worse it's no surprise you would choose to vote for Biden if you could.

Some Democratic policies, sure.  But there are some fiscal policies that used to be Republican that would be better.

Lying about a pandemic and telling people to do the opposite of what public health professionals say to do is was not a Republican policy until Trump made it one though.  These actions are absolutely and objectively damaging to the country as a whole.
If I am correct, what MDM is saying is that if you set aside dislike for Trump as a person, many republicans still like what Trump is doing. The divide simply falls on what falls into the "indiscretion/bad personal behavior" bucket that is annoying, but not impactful of duties as a president (see Clinton and Lewinsky having a consensual, but power-biased sexual relationship in the oval office, and Trump's myriad discretions and 'locker room talk'), vs actions and policies taken as the executive.

At the end of the day, republicans still seem to accept the Trump package. They may divert many things that democrats think are important into hte "other" bucket, but to some extent a person's internal rationalizations do not matter. They still accept it. And yes, Democrats accept bill clinton. I think that comparing Clinton's indiscretions to Trump's is a BIG stretch. And Clinton was much better with foreign affairs.

Personally, I am more bothered by Clinton's deregulation of the financial system, than about his personal life (which I also find distasteful). That he didn't squander economic success and actually worked on getting the deficit down is commendable. I wish we had more action in that vein over the last 20 years as well during our boom intervals.

js82

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3528 on: August 14, 2020, 12:29:49 PM »
If I am correct, what MDM is saying is that if you set aside dislike for Trump as a person, many republicans still like what Trump is doing. The divide simply falls on what falls into the "indiscretion/bad personal behavior" bucket that is annoying, but not impactful of duties as a president (see Clinton and Lewinsky having a consensual, but power-biased sexual relationship in the oval office, and Trump's myriad indiscretions and 'locker room talk'), vs actions and policies taken as the executive.

One of the common refrains I've seen from Trump backers is something to the effect of "I may not approve of his words, but I approve of his actions."

The obvious problem with this statement is that when have you tens/hundreds of millions of people who listen to you, your words *ARE* actions.  When you have the power to influence the way in which millions of citizens handle this pandemic not by economic decree, but by appealing to their senses of decency and pragmatism, your words matter(and it's very hard to argue in this case, that Trump's use of words had anything but a tremendously negative impact when it comes to how they affected the way citizens approached the pandemic).  When you have the power to either soothe or inflame racial tensions during a time when there's protests and rioting, your words matter.  When you have the power to impart useful information or destructive misinformation, your words matter.

You can compare Trump's and Clinton's conduct toward women(Both are awful), but Trump's use of words to manipulate people's behavior for the worse amounts to far more than "locker room talk" or "just words".

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3529 on: August 14, 2020, 12:37:38 PM »
If I am correct, what MDM is saying is that if you set aside dislike for Trump as a person, many republicans still like what Trump is doing. The divide simply falls on what falls into the "indiscretion/bad personal behavior" bucket that is annoying, but not impactful of duties as a president (see Clinton and Lewinsky having a consensual, but power-biased sexual relationship in the oval office, and Trump's myriad indiscretions and 'locker room talk'), vs actions and policies taken as the executive.

One of the common refrains I've seen from Trump backers is something to the effect of "I may not approve of his words, but I approve of his actions."

The obvious problem with this statement is that when have you tens/hundreds of millions of people who listen to you, your words *ARE* actions.  When you have the power to influence the way in which millions of citizens handle this pandemic not by economic decree, but by appealing to their senses of decency and pragmatism, your words matter(and it's very hard to argue in this case, that Trump's use of words had anything but a tremendously negative impact when it comes to how they affected the way citizens approached the pandemic).  When you have the power to either soothe or inflame racial tensions during a time when there's protests and rioting, your words matter.  When you have the power to impart useful information or destructive misinformation, your words matter.

You can compare Trump's and Clinton's conduct toward women(Both are awful), but Trump's use of words to manipulate people's behavior for the worse amounts to far more than "locker room talk" or "just words".

I agree completely. And I think you did a better job of articulating the divide I was trying to express with how people are sorting things into the buckets of "personal" vs "as president and important". I think that there are plenty of parts of a president's personal life that we may not align with, but are not important. Where people draw that line is important, though. And I think a lot of people have rationalized support for Trump by putting much of his egregious behavior into the "personal" bucket, even though those actions *do* matter quite a bit because they are from a position as leader.

Side note: I used the locker room euphemism because I didn't want to repeat his actual words.

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Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3531 on: August 14, 2020, 12:39:55 PM »
Add on example: using a racial slur (pocahontas) to refer to a sitting senator from a podium in the rose garden is not something that should be written off in my opinion. That is undeniably an action as president and supporting Trump is also supporting that unless actively calling out and pushing back against that behavior. Push back has been notably absent from the GOP in both houses of congress.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 12:42:18 PM by Glenstache »

ctuser1

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3532 on: August 14, 2020, 12:42:12 PM »
OTOH, many Republican policies are immoral and evil by design.
1. Aparthaid: https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression
2. Stealing $2T from our kids generation to line the pockets of the 1% - i.e. TCJA of 2017.
3. Southern Strategy.
4. Gerrymandering

For the sake of pointing it out, #4 is not strictly a "Republican policy" - both Democrats and Republicans tried to do it during the last redistricting cycle.
 Republicans just did a lot more of it because they controlled more state governments during the last round of redistricting.

False Equivalence.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/new-jersey-democratic-partisan-gerrymandering-amendment-is-dead-progressive-activists-killed-it.html

Nobody claimed Democrats aren't "normal" politicians who won't try to sneak in such corrupt stuff. The reason it is stupid false equivalence is because there are sufficiently large sane voices in that camp who can, given sufficient opportunities, counteract such corrupt politics.

That is how politics is supposed to function even in the best of situations.

So no - they are not equivalent.


js82

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3533 on: August 14, 2020, 01:12:09 PM »
OTOH, many Republican policies are immoral and evil by design.
1. Aparthaid: https://www.aclu.org/facts-about-voter-suppression
2. Stealing $2T from our kids generation to line the pockets of the 1% - i.e. TCJA of 2017.
3. Southern Strategy.
4. Gerrymandering

For the sake of pointing it out, #4 is not strictly a "Republican policy" - both Democrats and Republicans tried to do it during the last redistricting cycle.
 Republicans just did a lot more of it because they controlled more state governments during the last round of redistricting.

False Equivalence.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/new-jersey-democratic-partisan-gerrymandering-amendment-is-dead-progressive-activists-killed-it.html

Nobody claimed Democrats aren't "normal" politicians who won't try to sneak in such corrupt stuff. The reason it is stupid false equivalence is because there are sufficiently large sane voices in that camp who can, given sufficient opportunities, counteract such corrupt politics.

That is how politics is supposed to function even in the best of situations.

So no - they are not equivalent.

I agree that Republicans are more brazen about it than Democrats, and that there are more voices within the Democratic party (as well as those on the nonpartisan left) who oppose gerrymandering than those on the right.

That said, I think the first 3 items on your list(and some that you have left off, such as the gutting of environmental protections) are much more supportive of your central argument.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3534 on: August 14, 2020, 06:23:49 PM »
Iím so sickened.

I really think Trump is going to steal this. Mail-in voting suppression will be how he does it.

One of the nice things about modern data science is that it's going to be REALLY hard to hide a systematic attempt to manipulate mail-in voting.

When you have by-precinct or by-county data it's going to become painfully obvious if certain locales track in ways that don't make sense relative to their demographics.  Or if blue precincts suddenly have dramatically-lower turnout than red ones.

Not that it's much solace if it happens - but this is a problem that's well within our capability to detect.

And do almost nothing about it. If there's evidence of voter fraud in multiple states, then a separate lawsuit in each state would be required. Each case would have to prove the fraud, and within the narrow window between election day and the deadline to certify the results. Also, there's no precedent that says what happens next. I don't think an American election has ever been overturned by a judge.  The Supreme Court won't want to get involved and will kick it down to the individual states to handle. Also, they've already formed an opinion on this matter not conducive to counting all valid votes.  When voter fraud is exposed after the fact, the legal institution just throws its hands up and says "well, it is what it is."

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3535 on: August 14, 2020, 09:32:01 PM »
I don't think an American election has ever been overturned by a judge.  The Supreme Court won't want to get involved -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3536 on: August 14, 2020, 11:12:48 PM »
Iím so sickened.

I really think Trump is going to steal this. Mail-in voting suppression will be how he does it.

Trump literally waves it in our faces that he is trying everything in his power to steal the election.  Bolton wrote a book about it (highlighting how Trump uses calls to foreign leaders to offer goodies to help him stay in power, whatever the cost - the whole Ukrainian quid pro quo impeachment being just one example).  There was the Russia election tampering investigation and then continued brazen one-on-one talks with Putin.  And then there is just him simply stating - I'd welcome any help from China or Russia during the Clinton debates (before he even had something to offer, like he obviously does now that he's President).

Trump is like a druggie jonesing for re-election - he'll do anything to get this thing.  Fortunately for those that want him to fail, in a very twisted drug addict way, his mind cannot wrap itself around how the pandemic is something that will only make his re-election more difficult for him the more he wants it and suppresses hospitalization numbers, CDC expert advice, and is on the wrong side of history. 

His desire to ignore and bend the truth sickens, injures, and kills more Americans the more desperate he gets, and that is an awfully hard way to get more votes and supporters over time.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3537 on: August 15, 2020, 12:04:22 AM »
I don't think an American election has ever been overturned by a judge.  The Supreme Court won't want to get involved -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore

The Supreme Court allowed the state of Florida to certify its results and didn't touch it after that.

Leisured

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3538 on: August 15, 2020, 06:55:54 AM »
Elections are always important, and particularly so for the US election Nov 2020. Important for the world. It is worth taking a slight risk with COVID to vote in person. Wear a mask. Above all, actually get out and vote. In Australia you get fined if you do not vote, and rightly so.

In Australia we vote on a Saturday, and I understand that France and Germany vote on Sundays. This allows some leeway to vote when crowds are less. in Australia, you walk in to a school hall (typically, because schools are closed) have you name struck through by an election official, so that you cannot vote more than once, receive a ballot, walk to a booth, tick the boxes, drop the ballot into the bin and leave. Ten minutes at the outside. I hear that at some election sites there are sausage sizzles, but I have not seen that. A friendly atmosphere.



LaineyAZ

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3539 on: August 15, 2020, 06:58:30 AM »
I don't think an American election has ever been overturned by a judge.  The Supreme Court won't want to get involved -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore

The Supreme Court allowed the state of Florida to certify its results and didn't touch it after that.

Yep, and they also specifically said that this decision is not to be used as precedent.  But it's ironic that it's conservatives who wail about "activist judges" even now.

Leisured

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3540 on: August 15, 2020, 07:17:51 AM »

I wonder if Trump loses, if we're going to see the first ex US president receiving asylum in a foreign country.

Ingenious. I suggest North Korea and his pal 'Little Rocket Man.' The State Dept might stop income from Trump companies flowing to North Korea to support Trump. It is important that the countries Trump retires to do not have extradition treaties with the US.

Any constitutional lawyers on this forum? What possibilities are there for US prosecutors for pursuing Trump? Joe Biden has said that he will neither support nor oppose criminal pursuit of Trump in the event that Biden wins.


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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3541 on: August 15, 2020, 08:06:09 AM »
New York State will pursue him, and could even do so while he is President.

I suspect that the Attorney General's Office would start with those around him - KellyAnne Conway and the Hatch Act, for instance - and then circle around to Trump in due course.  It will take time for the full details of what he's done to emerge.

If Trump does lose it will be interesting to see what there is in the way of burning papers, or its electronic equivalent, on his way out.  That itself could be a source of criminal offences, of course.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3542 on: August 15, 2020, 08:13:49 AM »
I don't get it. If the majority of people vote by mail, wouldn't that also squash Republican votes too? Does he think only Democrats will vote by mail? I cannot believe the PO boxes are being hauled away on trucks! Why isn't anyone doing anything about this? This is America, why is Trump's crony allowed to do this and taking out some of the sorting machines, plus cutting hours at the PO too!

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3543 on: August 15, 2020, 08:18:30 AM »
New York State will pursue him, and could even do so while he is President.

I suspect that the Attorney General's Office would start with those around him - KellyAnne Conway and the Hatch Act, for instance - and then circle around to Trump in due course.  It will take time for the full details of what he's done to emerge.

If Trump does lose it will be interesting to see what there is in the way of burning papers, or its electronic equivalent, on his way out.  That itself could be a source of criminal offences, of course.

George W Bush is an international war criminal, and has never faced repercussions of any kind for his actions.  No US president is ever held accountable once out of office.  I have zero faith that Trump will see even a modicum of justice in the long term, but love your (misplaced) optimism.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3544 on: August 15, 2020, 08:38:45 AM »
I don't get it. If the majority of people vote by mail, wouldn't that also squash Republican votes too? Does he think only Democrats will vote by mail? I cannot believe the PO boxes are being hauled away on trucks! Why isn't anyone doing anything about this? This is America, why is Trump's crony allowed to do this and taking out some of the sorting machines, plus cutting hours at the PO too!
Trump has been dissing vote by mail for months and his message has got through to Republicans, as polls show far fewer of them are proposing to vote by mail than Democrats.  The question, other than whether the polls can be believed, is whether all the Republicans who will not be voting by mail because their President tells them it's bad (except in Florida!) will turn out in person to the polls or just not vote at all.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3545 on: August 15, 2020, 08:42:11 AM »
New York State will pursue him, and could even do so while he is President.

I suspect that the Attorney General's Office would start with those around him - KellyAnne Conway and the Hatch Act, for instance - and then circle around to Trump in due course.  It will take time for the full details of what he's done to emerge.

If Trump does lose it will be interesting to see what there is in the way of burning papers, or its electronic equivalent, on his way out.  That itself could be a source of criminal offences, of course.

George W Bush is an international war criminal, and has never faced repercussions of any kind for his actions.  No US president is ever held accountable once out of office.  I have zero faith that Trump will see even a modicum of justice in the long term, but love your (misplaced) optimism.
The USA ignores international criminal law as a point of principle, so it's not surprising Dubya hasn't been done for Iraq.

The reluctance to go after former Presidents is why there won't be immediate action against Trump.  But the truth will come out over time and some of it will I think be unavoidable and indefensible, for instance in relation to the Emoluments Clause.  He'll be fine for months or even years but eventually I think a reckoning will come.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3546 on: August 15, 2020, 08:46:51 AM »
I don't get it. If the majority of people vote by mail, wouldn't that also squash Republican votes too? Does he think only Democrats will vote by mail? I cannot believe the PO boxes are being hauled away on trucks! Why isn't anyone doing anything about this? This is America, why is Trump's crony allowed to do this and taking out some of the sorting machines, plus cutting hours at the PO too!


OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3547 on: August 15, 2020, 08:53:22 AM »
I don't get it. If the majority of people vote by mail, wouldn't that also squash Republican votes too? Does he think only Democrats will vote by mail? I cannot believe the PO boxes are being hauled away on trucks! Why isn't anyone doing anything about this? This is America, why is Trump's crony allowed to do this and taking out some of the sorting machines, plus cutting hours at the PO too!



As someone planning to work the polls in November, this is both good and bad. Good because it should be less crowded than in 2016. Bad because the majority of in-person voters will be from the political bloc least likely to wear masks.

sherr

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3548 on: August 15, 2020, 08:55:30 AM »
If Trump does lose it will be interesting to see what there is in the way of burning papers, or its electronic equivalent, on his way out.  That itself could be a source of criminal offences, of course.

From the Mueller report:
Quote
Further, the Office learned that some of the individuals we interviewed or whose conduct we investigated-including some associated with the Trump Campaign ó deleted relevant communications or communicated during the relevant period using applications that feature encryption or that do not provide for long-term retention of data or communications records. In such cases, the Office was not able to corroborate witness statements through comparison to contemporaneous communications or fully question witnesses about statements that appeared inconsistent with other known facts.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3549 on: August 15, 2020, 09:05:05 AM »
New York State will pursue him, and could even do so while he is President.

I suspect that the Attorney General's Office would start with those around him - KellyAnne Conway and the Hatch Act, for instance - and then circle around to Trump in due course.  It will take time for the full details of what he's done to emerge.

If Trump does lose it will be interesting to see what there is in the way of burning papers, or its electronic equivalent, on his way out.  That itself could be a source of criminal offences, of course.

George W Bush is an international war criminal, and has never faced repercussions of any kind for his actions.  No US president is ever held accountable once out of office.  I have zero faith that Trump will see even a modicum of justice in the long term, but love your (misplaced) optimism.
The USA ignores international criminal law as a point of principle, so it's not surprising Dubya hasn't been done for Iraq.

The reluctance to go after former Presidents is why there won't be immediate action against Trump.  But the truth will come out over time and some of it will I think be unavoidable and indefensible, for instance in relation to the Emoluments Clause.  He'll be fine for months or even years but eventually I think a reckoning will come.

It's the same in Canada.   Former prime ministers are never prosecuted.    Remember Mulroney and the Airbus bribes.   It's surprising the RCMP even launched an investigation.