Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 303293 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3200 on: August 01, 2020, 06:48:27 PM »
If you can't win an election fairly . . . you're probably Republican, and very experienced at subverting election law.

rocketpj

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3201 on: August 01, 2020, 06:56:21 PM »
Jared Kushner's covid-19 team argued against a national strategy to deal with the pandemic because they predicted that the virus would hit blue states worse than red states, and therefore it was politically advantageous to just let the virus run its course.

Kushnerís COVID-19 Team Ended Plan For Nationwide Testing Because They Didnít Want To Help Blue States

It is not exaggeration or hyperbole to say that this administration is evil.

This allegation deserves more attention.

I think monstrous is the word.  Utterly monstrous. 

Norioch

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3202 on: August 01, 2020, 08:05:15 PM »
The US ambassador to Brazil asked Brazilian officials to help Trumpís reelection.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2020/8/1/21350810/us-ambassador-brazil-chapman-favor-ethanol-trump-reelection

That's still illegal, just like last time Trump was caught doing it.

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3203 on: August 02, 2020, 05:23:53 AM »
Also the contradiction between what the Governor said and what DHS Secretary said has caught the notice of others.

Is any of this even relevant? Did they leave and remain on standby or did they leave altogether... this distinction really isn't that important to the debate.

The smaller question I was trying to address was, who took steps to de-escalate the situation and what did local police do differently than federal law enforcement which resulted in less violence?

The bigger questions are, was the local/state government's response inadequate and if so was the federal government's response justified, and if so was it helpful or harmful?

Feds raided the Riot Ribs tent last night. So they are still there.
https://mobile.twitter.com/begoniacloak/status/1287673416074399746

Portland PD clearing out a residential area after protests moved out there.
https://mobile.twitter.com/livesmattershow/status/1289797786775334918

Cops are also being accused of slashing tires. (Attached picture.)

So yes, Feds are still there. Portland and Oregon State cops are being even more aggressive than the feds now. And if Portland had done this earlier the Feds would not have been deployed.

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3204 on: August 02, 2020, 05:35:08 AM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3205 on: August 02, 2020, 06:39:19 AM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."
I never made such claim. Nice straw-man though.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3206 on: August 02, 2020, 06:49:13 AM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."
Within the rules of free speech, though, right?  So nothing much to see in those tweets unless you choose to.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3207 on: August 02, 2020, 06:52:15 AM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."

Should we infer from your post that you support selective application of the First Amendment?

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3208 on: August 02, 2020, 09:02:16 AM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."

I don't understand.  It cooking pork illegal?  Are you advocating for religious based laws giving special consideration to Christian holy books?

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3209 on: August 02, 2020, 09:26:09 AM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."
Within the rules of free speech, though, right?  So nothing much to see in those tweets unless you choose to.

What are they trying to say, though?      It sounds more like a bit of Mad Max than a peaceful protest by some left-leaning folks.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3210 on: August 02, 2020, 09:35:15 AM »
Jared Kushner's covid-19 team argued against a national strategy to deal with the pandemic because they predicted that the virus would hit blue states worse than red states, and therefore it was politically advantageous to just let the virus run its course.

Kushnerís COVID-19 Team Ended Plan For Nationwide Testing Because They Didnít Want To Help Blue States

It is not exaggeration or hyperbole to say that this administration is evil.

This allegation deserves more attention.

I think monstrous is the word.  Utterly monstrous.
I wonder if the defense will be that they are not doing anything to help the red states either, now that they are the new hot spots. "As you can see, we aren't helping anyone."

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3211 on: August 02, 2020, 09:59:54 AM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."
Within the rules of free speech, though, right?  So nothing much to see in those tweets unless you choose to.

What are they trying to say, though?      It sounds more like a bit of Mad Max than a peaceful protest by some left-leaning folks.
They are saying that the police are pigs and that they have no respect for the Christian religion.

Which is probably fair enough in the circumstances.  And constitutes peaceful and lawful protest.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3212 on: August 02, 2020, 10:04:48 AM »
They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."

I don't know about the pigs, maybe the ruler should stop being such pigheads and work for racial equality and voting opportunities?

But the bible definitely makes sense, if you remember that all the - aha - bigoted Republican presidents that liked to trample on Blacks were only presidents because of the fundamental religious fanatics. Not to mention that those are the biggest supporter of the orange ape.

Or maybe some commie libs thought "How about owning the evangelicals?"
Burning a bible is better than rolling coal imho.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3213 on: August 02, 2020, 02:23:24 PM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."
Within the rules of free speech, though, right?  So nothing much to see in those tweets unless you choose to.

What are they trying to say, though?      It sounds more like a bit of Mad Max than a peaceful protest by some left-leaning folks.
They are saying that the police are pigs and that they have no respect for the Christian religion.

Which is probably fair enough in the circumstances.  And constitutes peaceful and lawful protest.

It's certainly lawful protest. I haven't dug into it, but if all they're doing is literally just those two things, it's also peaceful.

The conservative response to it is likely that it's offensive with typically a comment on how other countries would certainly not treat the burning of the religious books as peaceful protests to be brushed aside as no big deal and some of them *cough cough Pakistan* have the death penalty for similar stuff and somehow find their way onto the UN human rights council - a ridiculous fact in and of itself. I can sympathize with both points. What they did was very intentionally offensive. I have no idea what they're trying to convey, and given the vandalism (country wide) at many times of pretty much everything in people's paths, regardless of it truly being a significant racist monument (not talking about confederate monuments here), I really doubt many of them know what they're trying to convey at all - they're just wanting to vandalize because they're mad. All that to say, I'd rather something that doesn't hurt people to something that does, and even though other countries do suck (and are elevated as if they don't), I still don't want to be in a country like them.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3214 on: August 02, 2020, 03:43:43 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3215 on: August 02, 2020, 03:51:28 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3216 on: August 02, 2020, 04:13:44 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3217 on: August 02, 2020, 04:20:27 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

This didn't come up in the context of boycotting a company or whatever, this came up in the context of "look what happens when federal law enforcement isn't around."

As you said, these things are different.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3218 on: August 02, 2020, 04:24:04 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

Sure. Absolutely. Youíre free to express yourself. You are not free of other peopleís condemnation of your expression.

But that condemnation should not involve force to stop your expression.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3219 on: August 02, 2020, 04:27:20 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

This didn't come up in the context of boycotting a company or whatever, this came up in the context of "look what happens when federal law enforcement isn't around."

As you said, these things are different.

I'm a little confused by your response (not sure what you're saying), so I'll just follow up to the intent of my post. I can't speak to the context of what was going on when the event happened. I'm speaking to the general vibe of this thread where Kris is emphasizing it being legal and peaceful (legal tying into the free speech concept - it's legal and thus illegal for the government to charge people for doing it) and where GuitarStv is comments: "Are you advocating for religious based laws giving special consideration to Christian holy books?" These are being used as deflections to conversations on whether or not burning Bibles is actually a good thing/idea.

Scottish is not promoting special consideration for the Bible. I'm not saying there should be any legal ramification for what is happening. I don't even think the OP who brought it up was. It seems a very similar comparison to when conservative get their feathers ruffled when they say something stupid and have non governmental consequences and hide behind "free speech" to complain about it - to what I'm seeing here on this thread. No one is saying the government should arrest them. People are bringing up legitimate discussions that what they're doing is not a good thing.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3220 on: August 02, 2020, 04:30:35 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

Sure. Absolutely. Youíre free to express yourself. You are not free of other peopleís condemnation of your expression.

But that condemnation should not involve force to stop your expression.

Right, which again, I definitively said was not the point, and I'm 99.9% sure scottish wasn't saying either. What I am saying is that scottish is saying, hey, this is a trigger. This probably isn't a good idea. I'm saying they're acting spoiled, acting out of anger in a way that's just trying to piss people off in regards to something they hold dear. In that context (of what scottish and I are saying), to me, to have multiple people comment again and again on how it's legal is deflecting. It's legal. Trump putting troops on the ground to arrest people for this is abhorent. These guys burning Bibles because they're pissed is a stupid thing to do that deserves condemnation.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3221 on: August 02, 2020, 04:34:14 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

This didn't come up in the context of boycotting a company or whatever, this came up in the context of "look what happens when federal law enforcement isn't around."

As you said, these things are different.

I'm a little confused by your response (not sure what you're saying), so I'll just follow up to the intent of my post. I can't speak to the context of what was going on when the event happened. I'm speaking to the general vibe of this thread where Kris is emphasizing it being legal and peaceful (legal tying into the free speech concept - it's legal and thus illegal for the government to charge people for doing it) and where GuitarStv is comments: "Are you advocating for religious based laws giving special consideration to Christian holy books?" These are being used as deflections to conversations on whether or not burning Bibles is actually a good thing/idea.

Scottish is not promoting special consideration for the Bible. I'm not saying there should be any legal ramification for what is happening. I don't even think the OP who brought it up was. It seems a very similar comparison to when conservative get their feathers ruffled when they say something stupid and have non governmental consequences and hide behind "free speech" to complain about it - to what I'm seeing here on this thread. No one is saying the government should arrest them. People are bringing up legitimate discussions that what they're doing is not a good thing.

You must have gentmach on ignore :)

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3222 on: August 02, 2020, 04:36:59 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

This didn't come up in the context of boycotting a company or whatever, this came up in the context of "look what happens when federal law enforcement isn't around."

As you said, these things are different.

I'm a little confused by your response (not sure what you're saying), so I'll just follow up to the intent of my post. I can't speak to the context of what was going on when the event happened. I'm speaking to the general vibe of this thread where Kris is emphasizing it being legal and peaceful (legal tying into the free speech concept - it's legal and thus illegal for the government to charge people for doing it) and where GuitarStv is comments: "Are you advocating for religious based laws giving special consideration to Christian holy books?" These are being used as deflections to conversations on whether or not burning Bibles is actually a good thing/idea.

Scottish is not promoting special consideration for the Bible. I'm not saying there should be any legal ramification for what is happening. I don't even think the OP who brought it up was. It seems a very similar comparison to when conservative get their feathers ruffled when they say something stupid and have non governmental consequences and hide behind "free speech" to complain about it - to what I'm seeing here on this thread. No one is saying the government should arrest them. People are bringing up legitimate discussions that what they're doing is not a good thing.

You must have gentmach on ignore :)

Lol, not on hard ignore, just on implied ignore as in I don't read his messages with any detail if at all. If that's what he's promoting and that's what you're arguing against, then I am fully in your court.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3223 on: August 02, 2020, 04:40:46 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

Sure. Absolutely. Youíre free to express yourself. You are not free of other peopleís condemnation of your expression.

But that condemnation should not involve force to stop your expression.

Right, which again, I definitively said was not the point, and I'm 99.9% sure scottish wasn't saying either. What I am saying is that scottish is saying, hey, this is a trigger. This probably isn't a good idea. I'm saying they're acting spoiled, acting out of anger in a way that's just trying to piss people off in regards to something they hold dear. In that context (of what scottish and I are saying), to me, to have multiple people comment again and again on how it's legal is deflecting. It's legal. Trump putting troops on the ground to arrest people for this is abhorent. These guys burning Bibles because they're pissed is a stupid thing to do that deserves condemnation.

Yep. Itís a trigger. I donít give a shit whether itís a ďgood idea.Ē

Saying #alllivesmatter is also a trigger. Itís also a shit idea.

People can vocally oppose whatever they want. Arguing is absolutely fine.

And the government should stay the fuck out of it in both cases.

Davnasty

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3224 on: August 02, 2020, 04:40:53 PM »
Seems to me the poster who brought up burning pig heads and bibles was suggesting that it was justification for police action and more specifically arresting and... I guess jailing them? To be fair, it can be pretty difficult to discern what this guy is trying to say sometimes.

They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3225 on: August 02, 2020, 04:53:35 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

Sure. Absolutely. Youíre free to express yourself. You are not free of other peopleís condemnation of your expression.

But that condemnation should not involve force to stop your expression.

Right, which again, I definitively said was not the point, and I'm 99.9% sure scottish wasn't saying either. What I am saying is that scottish is saying, hey, this is a trigger. This probably isn't a good idea. I'm saying they're acting spoiled, acting out of anger in a way that's just trying to piss people off in regards to something they hold dear. In that context (of what scottish and I are saying), to me, to have multiple people comment again and again on how it's legal is deflecting. It's legal. Trump putting troops on the ground to arrest people for this is abhorent. These guys burning Bibles because they're pissed is a stupid thing to do that deserves condemnation.

Yep. Itís a trigger. I donít give a shit whether itís a ďgood idea.Ē

Saying #alllivesmatter is also a trigger. Itís also a shit idea.

People can vocally oppose whatever they want. Arguing is absolutely fine.

And the government should stay the fuck out of it in both cases.

I mean, OK. That's fine; you say you don't care about it - you're quite clear now. However, you weren't replying to gentmarc who was apparently arguing for arrest because of it (I'm not going to read through what he's saying to figure out what I think he's trying to say, lol, I don't feel like it). You were quoting scottish who, I thought although I can't speak for him, was focusing on a more nuanced discussion about burning Bibles, what it meant, what it could accomplish, what harm it could cause, etc. You don't give a shit about it, that's fine. Your post seems to indicate otherwise as you are deflecting from scottish's comment (which appears to have nothing to do with the government not staying out of it). If you don't care about what scottish is saying, don't reply to it, and don't be surprised if people reply to what's actually being discussed, like I did, and do it under the assumption that you're disputing the poster you actually quoted, like I did.

Kris

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3226 on: August 02, 2020, 05:06:10 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

Sure. Absolutely. Youíre free to express yourself. You are not free of other peopleís condemnation of your expression.

But that condemnation should not involve force to stop your expression.

Right, which again, I definitively said was not the point, and I'm 99.9% sure scottish wasn't saying either. What I am saying is that scottish is saying, hey, this is a trigger. This probably isn't a good idea. I'm saying they're acting spoiled, acting out of anger in a way that's just trying to piss people off in regards to something they hold dear. In that context (of what scottish and I are saying), to me, to have multiple people comment again and again on how it's legal is deflecting. It's legal. Trump putting troops on the ground to arrest people for this is abhorent. These guys burning Bibles because they're pissed is a stupid thing to do that deserves condemnation.

Yep. Itís a trigger. I donít give a shit whether itís a ďgood idea.Ē

Saying #alllivesmatter is also a trigger. Itís also a shit idea.

People can vocally oppose whatever they want. Arguing is absolutely fine.

And the government should stay the fuck out of it in both cases.

I mean, OK. That's fine; you say you don't care about it - you're quite clear now. However, you weren't replying to gentmarc who was apparently arguing for arrest because of it (I'm not going to read through what he's saying to figure out what I think he's trying to say, lol, I don't feel like it). You were quoting scottish who, I thought although I can't speak for him, was focusing on a more nuanced discussion about burning Bibles, what it meant, what it could accomplish, what harm it could cause, etc. You don't give a shit about it, that's fine. Your post seems to indicate otherwise as you are deflecting from scottish's comment (which appears to have nothing to do with the government not staying out of it). If you don't care about what scottish is saying, don't reply to it, and don't be surprised if people reply to what's actually being discussed, like I did, and do it under the assumption that you're disputing the poster you actually quoted, like I did.

Um... Iím not sure what youíre trying to say.

I donít reply to gentmach because heís a troll. But I donít have him on ignore, so yeah, his ďcontributionsĒ to the discussions are visible to me.

I can have my opinions on the relative severity of burning Bibles, burning flags, saying #alllivesmatter, etc.

Honestly, I donít consider myself to be deflecting from what scottish said. I fully recognize that for some people, burning a Bible may be the worst thing someone could possibly do. I think that is silly, because it is a book.

Sorry if I offended you by replying to scottishís comment. And scottish, I apologize if you were offended. But my point is, different people have different opinions of the relative severity of individual acts. I also have my opinions. But as far as I am concerned, those feelings are subjective and therefore ultimately impossible to come to conclusions about.

What seems more important to me is asserting that none of those actions ought to be met by government force. Or individual force, for that matter.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3227 on: August 02, 2020, 05:27:13 PM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

Sure. Absolutely. Youíre free to express yourself. You are not free of other peopleís condemnation of your expression.

But that condemnation should not involve force to stop your expression.

Right, which again, I definitively said was not the point, and I'm 99.9% sure scottish wasn't saying either. What I am saying is that scottish is saying, hey, this is a trigger. This probably isn't a good idea. I'm saying they're acting spoiled, acting out of anger in a way that's just trying to piss people off in regards to something they hold dear. In that context (of what scottish and I are saying), to me, to have multiple people comment again and again on how it's legal is deflecting. It's legal. Trump putting troops on the ground to arrest people for this is abhorent. These guys burning Bibles because they're pissed is a stupid thing to do that deserves condemnation.

Yep. Itís a trigger. I donít give a shit whether itís a ďgood idea.Ē

Saying #alllivesmatter is also a trigger. Itís also a shit idea.

People can vocally oppose whatever they want. Arguing is absolutely fine.

And the government should stay the fuck out of it in both cases.

I mean, OK. That's fine; you say you don't care about it - you're quite clear now. However, you weren't replying to gentmarc who was apparently arguing for arrest because of it (I'm not going to read through what he's saying to figure out what I think he's trying to say, lol, I don't feel like it). You were quoting scottish who, I thought although I can't speak for him, was focusing on a more nuanced discussion about burning Bibles, what it meant, what it could accomplish, what harm it could cause, etc. You don't give a shit about it, that's fine. Your post seems to indicate otherwise as you are deflecting from scottish's comment (which appears to have nothing to do with the government not staying out of it). If you don't care about what scottish is saying, don't reply to it, and don't be surprised if people reply to what's actually being discussed, like I did, and do it under the assumption that you're disputing the poster you actually quoted, like I did.

Um... Iím not sure what youíre trying to say.

I donít reply to gentmach because heís a troll. But I donít have him on ignore, so yeah, his ďcontributionsĒ to the discussions are visible to me.

I can have my opinions on the relative severity of burning Bibles, burning flags, saying #alllivesmatter, etc.

Honestly, I donít consider myself to be deflecting from what scottish said. I fully recognize that for some people, burning a Bible may be the worst thing someone could possibly do. I think that is silly, because it is a book.

Sorry if I offended you by replying to scottishís comment. And scottish, I apologize if you were offended. But my point is, different people have different opinions of the relative severity of individual acts. I also have my opinions. But as far as I am concerned, those feelings are subjective and therefore ultimately impossible to come to conclusions about.

What seems more important to me is asserting that none of those actions ought to be met by government force. Or individual force, for that matter.

That's fair. It didn't offend me, and I agree governmental force against it is indisputibly wrong as would be physical violence on a personal level. I just rarely see any good discussions of "criticism" of how people are protesting on the forum, and it seemed there was some hints of a discussion that were being deflected by comments of free speech or out of left field questions like special consideration of the Bible as opposed to other books of scripture. I think some of the things people are doing to protest are stupid/poorly conceived. It doesn't offend me per se that they're burning Bibles. By this, I mean that I don't have a visceral reaction to them doing it (but do think it's a really bad idea that presents poorly on the movement as a whole, will cause trouble, and is a symptom of protestors just doing whatever they feel like in a selfish way). I do think there's enough things protestors are doing that's at least eye roll worthy that it's worth talking about (defacing monuments to all black soldiers and the like). Maybe it's meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but to me, it serves as a warning of what seems to be a bit of a mob mentality that can cause issues with the movement in the long term.

ETA: This is in no way to diminish what Trump has been doing or the legitimate grievances of the overall protests. Those are being discussed in multiple places on here and merit much discussion. It just seems that to conservatives, what their protesting is often seen as a non-issue, which I don't believe, and to liberals, the protestors can do no wrong/nothing they do that's not good is worth discussing because the problem is so bad. As it seems more and more, I'm caught in the middle with no one to discuss my crazy notions :-).
« Last Edit: August 02, 2020, 06:51:30 PM by Wolfpack Mustachian »

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3228 on: August 02, 2020, 06:19:42 PM »
Seems to me the poster who brought up burning pig heads and bibles was suggesting that it was justification for police action and more specifically arresting and... I guess jailing them? To be fair, it can be pretty difficult to discern what this guy is trying to say sometimes.

They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.

They go right back out to the protests/riots.

As for the point you initially tried making, that other tactics should be tried:

The protesters decided to burn a severed pigs head:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289254994047201282

Protesters started burning Bible's:
https://mobile.twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1289710837838438400

Sounds like good folk who will definitely sit down and negotiate. Keep in mind this was done after the feds were "withdrawn."
Pretty much my take as well. I think the more appropriate phrase is that they are just throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3229 on: August 03, 2020, 04:20:49 AM »
Quote
The conservative response to it is likely that it's offensive with typically a comment on how other countries would certainly not treat the burning of the religious books as peaceful protests to be brushed aside as no big deal and some of them *cough cough Pakistan* have the death penalty for similar stuff and somehow find their way onto the UN human rights council - a ridiculous fact in and of itself.
The membership is rotated between the members irregardless of their adherence to the topic.
If it would be otherwise, the US would probably not be able to sit in a single commission. (Just google "Den Hague Law")

Quote
I can sympathize with both points. What they did was very intentionally offensive.
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.
Quote
Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act.

It always takes two people to be enraged. It's not that someone else makes you angry, it is you that get's angry about someone else.
I certainly get angry at book burning, since I am a sick bibliophile and librocubicularist (I get one point per google), but which book it is - why does this make a difference?
It is your decision if you get angry about it. You don't have to. So don't blame your anger on protestors.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3230 on: August 03, 2020, 05:08:36 AM »
Quote
The conservative response to it is likely that it's offensive with typically a comment on how other countries would certainly not treat the burning of the religious books as peaceful protests to be brushed aside as no big deal and some of them *cough cough Pakistan* have the death penalty for similar stuff and somehow find their way onto the UN human rights council - a ridiculous fact in and of itself.
The membership is rotated between the members irregardless of their adherence to the topic.
If it would be otherwise, the US would probably not be able to sit in a single commission. (Just google "Den Hague Law")

It's rotated, but aren't they still elected? From my brief research, it seems they do have to rotate and have certain restrictions on the geographic location of members to ensure a fair distribution, but they still have to be voted in - i.e. some members with especially egregious records could be excluded. Am I wrong on this count?

Additionally, I picked Pakistan because they're a particularly extreme example. The US has done its fair share of things wrong (yes, I looked at the Hague law as you requested), and they've gotten worse under Trump for sure. However, to say the US is in the same league as Pakistan is a bit laughable. In either extreme of demographic, I'd 100% rather be in either the majority in America than Pakistan or in the minority in America (we'll use black for the context of our conversation) compared to the minority in Pakistan (we'll say homosexual, convert to Christianity, etc.). Now, I in no way think that beating Pakistan is something to be proud of, but again, to compare the US and Pakistan as if they're in the same league is silly. If there is any judgement on membership to the human rights council, surely there could be a consensus that Pakistan does not belong...

Quote
I can sympathize with both points. What they did was very intentionally offensive.
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.
Quote
Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act.

It always takes two people to be enraged. It's not that someone else makes you angry, it is you that get's angry about someone else.
I certainly get angry at book burning, since I am a sick bibliophile and librocubicularist (I get one point per google), but which book it is - why does this make a difference?
It is your decision if you get angry about it. You don't have to. So don't blame your anger on protestors.

I agree 100% with your concept that it's up to us as to whether or not we get angry or not. However, it's interesting people often bring this up when it's people on the other side that's getting angry and we're talking about how they should be the rational about it.

former player

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3231 on: August 03, 2020, 05:30:30 AM »
The UN is about the nation not the regime.  Regimes come and go, nations mostly don't.  So the UN rotation policy is necessarily based on the nation not the regime.  Sometimes that looks very bad, of course, but provided the majority of countries are paying attention to human rights then the hope is that the moral and publicity pressure moves the minority closer to complying with the UNCHR.

It helps if major players such as the USA, EU and UK practice what they've preached.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3232 on: August 03, 2020, 07:15:25 AM »
Will anyone get upset if I contribute one copy each of Harry Potter Books V-VII to a book burning? My wife and I each owned one before we got married, and we really don't need the redundant copies. I cannot throw them away, because they're good books, but if i can help someone make a protest statement, of course I'll do that.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3233 on: August 03, 2020, 07:48:42 AM »
Why don't you donate them to the Goodwill instead? Or maybe your local library for when they have their yearly book sale to help support the library.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3234 on: August 03, 2020, 07:52:34 AM »
How about some catalogs too? I have a few paper catalogs laying around. Magazines too.

Nope - not going to get upset b/c someone burns a flag or a Bible. I mean DW and I love books but I'm not getting riled up over that book. Its ideas will endure even if one of the many million copies is burned.

Trump just needs to disappear never to be heard from again. I'd kick in on a first class one way ticket to North Korea for him. Replace him with more thoughtful, moderate voices and let's get on with living. Plenty of work needs to be done.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3235 on: August 03, 2020, 08:16:06 AM »
Will anyone get upset if I contribute one copy each of Harry Potter Books V-VII to a book burning? My wife and I each owned one before we got married, and we really don't need the redundant copies. I cannot throw them away, because they're good books, but if i can help someone make a protest statement, of course I'll do that.

Knock yourself out.  See if the Polish Catholic priest who was burning Harry Potter and Twighlight books last year still has his fire stoked.  Or any of the dozens of Christians in the US who have publicly burned Korans in the past ten years.

You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 08:18:18 AM by GuitarStv »

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3236 on: August 03, 2020, 08:28:32 AM »
It sounds more like they're trying to escalate than protest to me.    Burning religious texts is a huge trigger for many religious people.

Or itís a symbolic protest of anger.

And still legal. And still peaceful. Trigger or no.

It certainly is legal, and it certainly is peaceful in that they're not hurting anyone or doing something that could indirectly hurt someone (i.e. burning a building). However, as many on the left are fond of saying, free speech as properly understood only limits what the government is legally allowed to do about a situation. Should Trump or any governmental official stop what they're doing? Absolutely, 110% heck no. Are there consequences for doing that, and is that a legitimate thing. Most certainly. Of course burning religious texts is a trigger for millions of peole, and it's not an "overreacting to the issue trigger"; it's legitimate for people to be offended and disgusted by the act. They're intentionally being provocative jerks, and there's a very indirect at best correlation of what they're doing to whatever they're trying to say (if there's anything they're actually trying to say - and I'm leaning towards there's really nothing, they're just being jerks). So, yes, them hiding behind it as free speech (if they are) or anyone throwing out "free speech" when people criticize what they're doing is no different from when conservatives hide behind doing something as free speech and get upset when large swathes of people take action (boycotting a company or whatever because of what is said). People burning Bibles are acting like spoiled jerks and should be called out as such. They have no high ground or moral superiority for being so intentionally provocative. And the government should have nothing to do with stopping it.

Sure. Absolutely. Youíre free to express yourself. You are not free of other peopleís condemnation of your expression.

But that condemnation should not involve force to stop your expression.

Right, which again, I definitively said was not the point, and I'm 99.9% sure scottish wasn't saying either. What I am saying is that scottish is saying, hey, this is a trigger. This probably isn't a good idea. I'm saying they're acting spoiled, acting out of anger in a way that's just trying to piss people off in regards to something they hold dear. In that context (of what scottish and I are saying), to me, to have multiple people comment again and again on how it's legal is deflecting. It's legal. Trump putting troops on the ground to arrest people for this is abhorent. These guys burning Bibles because they're pissed is a stupid thing to do that deserves condemnation.

Yep. Itís a trigger. I donít give a shit whether itís a ďgood idea.Ē

Saying #alllivesmatter is also a trigger. Itís also a shit idea.

People can vocally oppose whatever they want. Arguing is absolutely fine.

And the government should stay the fuck out of it in both cases.

I mean, OK. That's fine; you say you don't care about it - you're quite clear now. However, you weren't replying to gentmarc who was apparently arguing for arrest because of it (I'm not going to read through what he's saying to figure out what I think he's trying to say, lol, I don't feel like it). You were quoting scottish who, I thought although I can't speak for him, was focusing on a more nuanced discussion about burning Bibles, what it meant, what it could accomplish, what harm it could cause, etc. You don't give a shit about it, that's fine. Your post seems to indicate otherwise as you are deflecting from scottish's comment (which appears to have nothing to do with the government not staying out of it). If you don't care about what scottish is saying, don't reply to it, and don't be surprised if people reply to what's actually being discussed, like I did, and do it under the assumption that you're disputing the poster you actually quoted, like I did.

Um... Iím not sure what youíre trying to say.

I donít reply to gentmach because heís a troll. But I donít have him on ignore, so yeah, his ďcontributionsĒ to the discussions are visible to me.

I can have my opinions on the relative severity of burning Bibles, burning flags, saying #alllivesmatter, etc.

Honestly, I donít consider myself to be deflecting from what scottish said. I fully recognize that for some people, burning a Bible may be the worst thing someone could possibly do. I think that is silly, because it is a book.

Sorry if I offended you by replying to scottishís comment. And scottish, I apologize if you were offended. But my point is, different people have different opinions of the relative severity of individual acts. I also have my opinions. But as far as I am concerned, those feelings are subjective and therefore ultimately impossible to come to conclusions about.

What seems more important to me is asserting that none of those actions ought to be met by government force. Or individual force, for that matter.

Hah hah, no I'm not offended.    I think everyone interpreted my comments correctly.

But how would we find out who these folks are so we can shun them and boycott their businesses?    When politicians or business leaders do stupid shit their identity is all over the internet.   Not so much for individual protesters.   I'm really asking what sort of consequences we can expect from their actions.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3237 on: August 03, 2020, 09:31:55 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered. 

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3238 on: August 03, 2020, 09:59:43 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered.

While we are nominating books for the bonfire, can I nominate the Twilight series? Bella is a white bread heroine in the worst way, massively bland, massively boring, massively lacking in fibre and substance.  And vampires that sparkle?  Give me a break.  Vampires need to avoid the sun so they don't burn, else we are doomed.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3239 on: August 03, 2020, 10:03:01 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered.

While we are nominating books for the bonfire, can I nominate the Twilight series? Bella is a white bread heroine in the worst way, massively bland, massively boring, massively lacking in fibre and substance.  And vampires that sparkle?  Give me a break.  Vampires need to avoid the sun so they don't burn, else we are doomed.

Yes, a truly awful series.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3240 on: August 03, 2020, 10:07:00 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered.

While we are nominating books for the bonfire, can I nominate the Twilight series? Bella is a white bread heroine in the worst way, massively bland, massively boring, massively lacking in fibre and substance.  And vampires that sparkle?  Give me a break.  Vampires need to avoid the sun so they don't burn, else we are doomed.

Seconded. An acquaintance loaned me the first book, and I made it through about three pages before I got fed up with Bella and threw the book across the room (it was a paperback and was not damaged).

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3241 on: August 03, 2020, 10:33:25 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered.

While we are nominating books for the bonfire, can I nominate the Twilight series? Bella is a white bread heroine in the worst way, massively bland, massively boring, massively lacking in fibre and substance.  And vampires that sparkle?  Give me a break.  Vampires need to avoid the sun so they don't burn, else we are doomed.

Yes, a truly awful series.

Agreed . . . yet still responsible for much less human suffering in the world than most religious texts I can think of.  So which book is really more deserving of a good burning?    :P

Pigeon

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3242 on: August 03, 2020, 10:51:23 AM »
Terrible as the Twilight books might be, they turned my reluctant reader pre-teen into a voracious reader, who quickly moved beyond them.  So I have a soft spot for them.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3243 on: August 03, 2020, 11:05:58 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered.

While we are nominating books for the bonfire, can I nominate the Twilight series? Bella is a white bread heroine in the worst way, massively bland, massively boring, massively lacking in fibre and substance.  And vampires that sparkle?  Give me a break.  Vampires need to avoid the sun so they don't burn, else we are doomed.

Yes, a truly awful series.

Agreed . . . yet still responsible for much less human suffering in the world than most religious texts I can think of.  So which book is really more deserving of a good burning?    :P

While not religious text per se, the Twilight series carries some pretty heavy-handed religious messages.  Author Stephanie Meyer is a devote Mormon, and themes such as abstinence, God, purity and one's soul are front and center throughout the novels.

gaja

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3244 on: August 03, 2020, 11:06:26 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered.

While we are nominating books for the bonfire, can I nominate the Twilight series? Bella is a white bread heroine in the worst way, massively bland, massively boring, massively lacking in fibre and substance.  And vampires that sparkle?  Give me a break.  Vampires need to avoid the sun so they don't burn, else we are doomed.

Yes, a truly awful series.

Agreed . . . yet still responsible for much less human suffering in the world than most religious texts I can think of.  So which book is really more deserving of a good burning?    :P

Mein kampf is a clear candidate. The writing is terrible; incredibly boring, and with sentences that barely make sense. It, and a book from the 1930's based on the conspiracy theories in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are some of the worst literature I've ever read. The content and history of both were also terrible, of course. But based on the literary quality I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could read that shit and become a convinced nazi.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3245 on: August 03, 2020, 11:15:01 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered.

While we are nominating books for the bonfire, can I nominate the Twilight series? Bella is a white bread heroine in the worst way, massively bland, massively boring, massively lacking in fibre and substance.  And vampires that sparkle?  Give me a break.  Vampires need to avoid the sun so they don't burn, else we are doomed.

Yes, a truly awful series.

Agreed . . . yet still responsible for much less human suffering in the world than most religious texts I can think of.  So which book is really more deserving of a good burning?    :P

Mein kampf is a clear candidate. The writing is terrible; incredibly boring, and with sentences that barely make sense. It, and a book from the 1930's based on the conspiracy theories in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are some of the worst literature I've ever read. The content and history of both were also terrible, of course. But based on the literary quality I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could read that shit and become a convinced nazi.

Often times the books don't create Nazis (or Christians, or Linux Geeks), but rather help people who already are these things realize it.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3246 on: August 03, 2020, 11:19:30 AM »
It's rotated, but aren't they still elected? From my brief research, it seems they do have to rotate and have certain restrictions on the geographic location of members to ensure a fair distribution, but they still have to be voted in - i.e. some members with especially egregious records could be excluded. Am I wrong on this count?
I don't know. Probably. But a seat in the UN is a prestige project, especially for tyrants. Means that same (election) mechanic makes sure that seats are not given by moral worthiness but by trade worthiness.
You vote me in you get a trade deal.

I agree 100% with your concept that it's up to us as to whether or not we get angry or not. However, it's interesting people often bring this up when it's people on the other side that's getting angry and we're talking about how they should be the rational about it.

That is certainly true. But generally there is small but distinctive difference between the anger reasons.

Take the bible and I think I took "rolling coal"?

There is always the possibility that burning bibles may change something to the better. I admit it is a very strange dimension where that happens, but it is not impossible. At the same time it is a purely subjective thing the conflict is about.

But if you "roll coal" there is zero chance that climate change will go away. In fact you make it worse. It is an objectivly never-good thing that also negativly affects everyone, including the coaler. There is nothing subjective about the climate getting worse.

Quote
the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.
Oh really? Religious idiocy really knows no bounds!

Quote
Terrible as the Twilight books might be, they turned my reluctant reader pre-teen into a voracious reader, who quickly moved beyond them.  So I have a soft spot for them.
You need to get them hooked with the easy drugs, old dealer wisdom.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3247 on: August 03, 2020, 11:32:11 AM »
You might also want to get in touch with the multiple religious groups who organized bans and boycotts of "The Golden Compass" books and movies after the author came out as publicly atheist.

I was very disappointed by the final book in that trilogy. I kinda wanted to burn it myself, though not because of any religious ideology.  I just thought a great storyline got squandered.

While we are nominating books for the bonfire, can I nominate the Twilight series? Bella is a white bread heroine in the worst way, massively bland, massively boring, massively lacking in fibre and substance.  And vampires that sparkle?  Give me a break.  Vampires need to avoid the sun so they don't burn, else we are doomed.

Yes, a truly awful series.

Agreed . . . yet still responsible for much less human suffering in the world than most religious texts I can think of.  So which book is really more deserving of a good burning?    :P

Mein kampf is a clear candidate. The writing is terrible; incredibly boring, and with sentences that barely make sense. It, and a book from the 1930's based on the conspiracy theories in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, are some of the worst literature I've ever read. The content and history of both were also terrible, of course. But based on the literary quality I'm having trouble understanding how anyone could read that shit and become a convinced nazi.

I always thought that one had to read (and understand) a book in its native language to evaluate it.  Since my German is limited to a few (mostly dirty) phrases all I can personally say about it is how horrible the author was.
For those that speak German (@LennStar ?) is the book really that poorly written?

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3248 on: August 03, 2020, 12:48:56 PM »

 I think some of the things people are doing to protest are stupid/poorly conceived. It doesn't offend me per se that they're burning Bibles. By this, I mean that I don't have a visceral reaction to them doing it (but do think it's a really bad idea that presents poorly on the movement as a whole, will cause trouble, and is a symptom of protestors just doing whatever they feel like in a selfish way).

I do not know what motivates some of the demonstrators to burn Bibles.

For some of them, and some members of BLM and their supporters,   is there a nexus between the Bible, the word of God  that constitutes the holy scripture  of Christianity, and longstanding, institutionalized, Christian oppression of blacks?

I surmise there is.


Loving v. Virginia (1967)


In June 1958, two residents of Virginia, Mildred Jeter, a Negro woman, and Richard Loving, a white man, were married in the District of Columbia pursuant to its laws. Shortly after their marriage, the Lovings returned to Virginia and established their marital abode in Caroline County.

At the October Term, 1958, of the Circuit Court of Caroline County, a grand jury issued an indictment charging the Lovings with violating Virginia's ban on interracial marriages.

On January 6, 1959, the Lovings pleaded guilty to the charge and were sentenced to one year in jail; however, the trial judge suspended the sentence for a period of 25 years on the condition that the Lovings leave the State and not return to Virginia together for 25 years. He stated in an opinion that:


'Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.'


« Last Edit: August 03, 2020, 12:54:57 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

Norioch

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3249 on: August 03, 2020, 01:15:32 PM »
Trump is now arguing that only ballots that have been counted by election day should count towards the election.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/31/trump-just-told-us-how-mail-delays-could-help-him-corrupt-election/

This is happening. He is 100% sabotaging mail delivery so mail-in ballots get sent out late and can't be returned in time. He's going to declare victory on November 3 with millions of ballots uncounted, and he'll argue all the way to the Supreme Court that those remaining ballots never should be counted. SCOTUS already let this happen in the Wisconsin primary so they're very likely to let it happen again. We're about to have an illegitimate election.