Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 303339 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3150 on: July 30, 2020, 11:07:28 AM »
If anyone is surprised by this, well, it must have been nice to live in a bubble completely shielded from reality for the last 4 years.

BBC: Donald Trump calls for delay to 2020 US presidential election

I'm not at all surprised that he's now stating it outright, but I'm wondering if the timing is to use it as a distraction from the GDP numbers that are coming out today. The good news is that it's not his call to delay it.

The House of Representatives is the only thing standing in his way, and thank [insert deity of choice] that it is majority Democrat because Trump's GOP lackeys in the Senate would probably allow this.




"Probably"?

Well there is SCOTUS.  They've handed down a number of verdicts against Trump in the last year.
Not saying they can or would here... but just a 'maybe'.  Roberts seems to have lost patience with Trump's claims that he can do whatever he wants with no oversight in various matters.

Does SCOTUS matter?

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/daca-donald-trump-supreme-court.html

Yeah, SCOTUS is an institution built with clapboard thin walls that's only kept standing because the person who controls the military believes in it as well. Once we get an authoritarian in power who doesn't care what 9 octogenarians think, it's useless.

What needs to happen is vocal and clear condemnation of Trump's election delay tweet by the Republicans.

The question then is whether the military is indeed controlled by the individual DJT (instead of the  office of the President and the US Constitution- which military brass will stress is whom they serve). 

Put another way, if SCOTUS declares an action by POTUS to be unconstitutional, whom will the US Military follow?  Given the defections and bad blood which has festered between the two camps I'm not convinced they would side with Trump.  Even Esper sought to do an end-run around Trump's protection of Confederate names and symbols.

The President may be the Command-in-chief of the military, but that doesn't mean the military would follow an order from him that violated the law or the Constitution

Police and ICE have had no problems following orders that violate the constitution.  I'm hoping your faith in the military will turn out differently.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3151 on: July 30, 2020, 11:21:21 AM »
If anyone is surprised by this, well, it must have been nice to live in a bubble completely shielded from reality for the last 4 years.

BBC: Donald Trump calls for delay to 2020 US presidential election

I'm not at all surprised that he's now stating it outright, but I'm wondering if the timing is to use it as a distraction from the GDP numbers that are coming out today. The good news is that it's not his call to delay it.

The House of Representatives is the only thing standing in his way, and thank [insert deity of choice] that it is majority Democrat because Trump's GOP lackeys in the Senate would probably allow this.




"Probably"?

Well there is SCOTUS.  They've handed down a number of verdicts against Trump in the last year.
Not saying they can or would here... but just a 'maybe'.  Roberts seems to have lost patience with Trump's claims that he can do whatever he wants with no oversight in various matters.

Does SCOTUS matter?

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/daca-donald-trump-supreme-court.html

Yeah, SCOTUS is an institution built with clapboard thin walls that's only kept standing because the person who controls the military believes in it as well. Once we get an authoritarian in power who doesn't care what 9 octogenarians think, it's useless.

What needs to happen is vocal and clear condemnation of Trump's election delay tweet by the Republicans.

The question then is whether the military is indeed controlled by the individual DJT (instead of the  office of the President and the US Constitution- which military brass will stress is whom they serve). 

Put another way, if SCOTUS declares an action by POTUS to be unconstitutional, whom will the US Military follow?  Given the defections and bad blood which has festered between the two camps I'm not convinced they would side with Trump.  Even Esper sought to do an end-run around Trump's protection of Confederate names and symbols.

The President may be the Command-in-chief of the military, but that doesn't mean the military would follow an order from him that violated the law or the Constitution

Police and ICE have had no problems following orders that violate the constitution.  I'm hoping your faith in the military will turn out differently.

Indeed it would seem as if this Operation Legend establishes a trajectory for these particular Federal agents to secure Trump's power rather than secure our Constitutional order.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3152 on: July 30, 2020, 11:25:54 AM »
Election is happening Nov 3rd

Nothing the President can do about, no matter what he tweets. News organizations know this, government officials know this, but they're going to milk this fake outrage as long as possible. Gotta get those sweet, sweet rage clicks.

It's not "fake outrage". Just because Trump is impotent to implement this particular sabotage of democracy doesn't mean it's not outrageous that he's traitorous and stupid enough to try.

Maybe you should be a little more concerned about the fact that Trump is saying stuff like this, and not that the media is reporting on it.

This, and also it increases the likelihood that election workers (like myself) can expect to have the legitimacy of the election challenged heavily at the polls by his cult followers, which is a form of voter intimidation.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3153 on: July 30, 2020, 11:33:57 AM »
Election is happening Nov 3rd

Nothing the President can do about, no matter what he tweets. News organizations know this, government officials know this, but they're going to milk this fake outrage as long as possible. Gotta get those sweet, sweet rage clicks.

It's not "fake outrage". Just because Trump is impotent to implement this particular sabotage of democracy doesn't mean it's not outrageous that he's traitorous and stupid enough to try.

Maybe you should be a little more concerned about the fact that Trump is saying stuff like this, and not that the media is reporting on it.

This, and also it increases the likelihood that election workers (like myself) can expect to have the legitimacy of the election challenged heavily at the polls by his cult followers, which is a form of voter intimidation.
I wonder if his next step will be to call for a boycott of the election as illegitimate? That would pretty guarantee his loss, but allow him to continue trumpeting his coveted victim-status.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3154 on: July 30, 2020, 11:45:41 AM »
Seriously, you were complaining about a 2.5 month gap between election and new swearing in.  Your constitution says you have to do this.  Can't it be amended to a shorter time period?  You already have lots of amendments.

Technically, it was shortened.  inauguration used to be March 3rd up until 1937, when the 20th amendment was ratified.   So the 'lame-duck' session was shortened from roughly 16 weeks until 10.  So your theory of it being a throwback to an older time doesn't hold water.  Our government is just cumbersome and difficult to change by design.

I'm really not sure why the amendment didn't go further, perhaps delaying the general election until December and then holding the inauguration earlier in January.  Shrug.

As for 'why not pass another amendment' - well the bar for amendments is incredibly high. The most common method requires 2/3rds of both Houses of congress  plus the approval of 75% (38) states.  It's rare that anything gets that level of support - though what the rationale would be to rejecting such a change I can't quite guess.  A lot of legislators believe our de-facto response should be to keep that Constitution unaltered.

I didn't know any of that.  Well, 1937 is a bit more recent, how did they manage all that support?  Not that this relevant to the main topic, really.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3155 on: July 30, 2020, 11:48:08 AM »
I wonder if his next step will be to call for a boycott of the election as illegitimate? That would pretty guarantee his loss, but allow him to continue trumpeting his coveted victim-status.

That would not only guarantee Trump's loss, but also the loss of probably 75-90% of all other republican candidates in all other elections. The GOP would be forced to chose between finally turning on Trump for the first time, or going full-fascist and rile up their base to start murdering people in the street.

I for one hope it doesn't come to that.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3156 on: July 30, 2020, 12:32:19 PM »
I wonder if his next step will be to call for a boycott of the election as illegitimate? That would pretty guarantee his loss, but allow him to continue trumpeting his coveted victim-status.

That would not only guarantee Trump's loss, but also the loss of probably 75-90% of all other republican candidates in all other elections. The GOP would be forced to chose between finally turning on Trump for the first time, or going full-fascist and rile up their base to start murdering people in the street.

I for one hope it doesn't come to that.

At this point, who knows what Trump will do. However, there has already been backlash from the tweet. I think we've finally hit the thing that Republicans in large numbers won't allow to happen.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/politics/trump-election-tweet-republican-reaction/index.html

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3157 on: July 30, 2020, 01:27:13 PM »
I wonder if his next step will be to call for a boycott of the election as illegitimate? That would pretty guarantee his loss, but allow him to continue trumpeting his coveted victim-status.

That would not only guarantee Trump's loss, but also the loss of probably 75-90% of all other republican candidates in all other elections. The GOP would be forced to chose between finally turning on Trump for the first time, or going full-fascist and rile up their base to start murdering people in the street.

I for one hope it doesn't come to that.

Trump's manipulation could force returns so lopsided that--in the best case scenario--Biden is treated as illegitimate and hamstrung should he become President.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3158 on: July 30, 2020, 01:29:06 PM »
I wonder if his next step will be to call for a boycott of the election as illegitimate? That would pretty guarantee his loss, but allow him to continue trumpeting his coveted victim-status.

That would not only guarantee Trump's loss, but also the loss of probably 75-90% of all other republican candidates in all other elections. The GOP would be forced to chose between finally turning on Trump for the first time, or going full-fascist and rile up their base to start murdering people in the street.

I for one hope it doesn't come to that.

Well, it's not like they haven't done that already..

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3159 on: July 30, 2020, 01:45:27 PM »
I wonder if his next step will be to call for a boycott of the election as illegitimate? That would pretty guarantee his loss, but allow him to continue trumpeting his coveted victim-status.

That would not only guarantee Trump's loss, but also the loss of probably 75-90% of all other republican candidates in all other elections. The GOP would be forced to chose between finally turning on Trump for the first time, or going full-fascist and rile up their base to start murdering people in the street.

I for one hope it doesn't come to that.

Trump's manipulation could force returns so lopsided that--in the best case scenario--Biden is treated as illegitimate and hamstrung should he become President.

Obama went 8 years with a significant minority convinced he was 'illegitimate'.  Leading that pack was Trump (i.e. 'Birthers").  John Kerry spent much of his campaign defending his military service despite having a Silver Star, a Bronze Star and 3 purple hearts.
The groundwork has already been laid for Biden to be considered cognitively deficient and a "puppet of the radical left" (Trump's words).

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Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3161 on: July 30, 2020, 03:23:08 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/30/politics/herman-cain-dies-coronavirus/index.html
See also, Louie Gohmert: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/29/louis-gohmert-who-refused-to-wear-a-mask-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-386076

... the part where he blames the positive test  on having worn a mask was pretty rich. He is, apparently, also all-in on hydroxychloroquine treatment program and will be starting that soon. 

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3162 on: July 30, 2020, 03:49:21 PM »
Good!

Trump just needs a story to save his ego if he loses the election.    He is a winner, and nothing is allowed to change that.    So he doesn't have to attack the constitution, or delay the election date.   He just needs a story that he's still a winner even if he lost.

Now he can say that he lost the election because the corrupt politicians in Washington would not let him move the election date to after the pandemic.    (The US is really lucky both the GOP and the Democrats jumped on this one.   Can you imagine having Trump in charge any longer than absolutely necessary while the pandemic is ongoing?)

He'll be trying this message on for size for a few weeks to see if he likes it or not.

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3163 on: July 30, 2020, 04:52:54 PM »
Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3164 on: July 30, 2020, 06:05:30 PM »
The question then is whether the military is indeed controlled by the individual DJT (instead of the  office of the President and the US Constitution- which military brass will stress is whom they serve). 

Put another way, if SCOTUS declares an action by POTUS to be unconstitutional, whom will the US Military follow?  Given the defections and bad blood which has festered between the two camps I'm not convinced they would side with Trump.  Even Esper sought to do an end-run around Trump's protection of Confederate names and symbols.

@Travis ?

Like the delay tweet, Trump would never outright proclaim, "Fuck SCOTUS! I'm in charge now!" He'd coach it in terms of the Court being taken over by radicals, making unconstitutional and non-American decisions, working with the worldwide sex ring etc.

Then we get into how soldiers in the military think. Are they so ingrained into following orders that, if the President says it, it must be Constitutional?

Witness the clearing out of 1a, non-violent, protestors for his photo op. The DC Major regrets it now but he followed the orders when they were given.


It may only be luck that Esper is in charge and it's too late to fire him before the election.

Bear in mind I'm neither a Constitutional lawyer nor have my finger on the pulse of the entire officer corps. That said, I would guess that if he declined to give up the job we (US military) would carry on our daily routine and wait for Congress, the Court, and whatever agencies that would be involved to sort it out. We're not in the business of coups and it's not our job to enforce Court orders.  If after Inauguration Day he's still there after losing the election and told SECDEF to order us to cordon off the White House or take to the streets, SECDEF wouldn't budge. Esper and Milley are already on the wrong side of history on last month's business, and in this scenario they'd be under no legal obligation to do it twice.  I have a feeling there are a lot of Executive Branch employees that would be eager to have a legal reason to tell him where to stick it.  Where I think you should be concerned is with how the Justice Department would react. Federal Police, White House security, the FBI, DHS, and Border Patrol all follow Barr's orders. He has a lot of domestic firepower at his fingertips.  Barr's testimony the other day says to me that he'll do what his boss wants with only the vaguest understanding of what he legally can and can't do.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3165 on: July 30, 2020, 08:22:57 PM »




Indeed it would seem as if this Operation Legend establishes a trajectory for these particular Federal agents to secure Trump's power rather than secure our Constitutional order.

What do you think of Operation Legend concerning  the  principle of ordered liberty that forms the bedrock of civil society?


John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3166 on: July 30, 2020, 08:58:29 PM »

 I have a feeling there are a lot of Executive Branch employees that would be eager to have a legal reason to tell him where to stick it. 

At 12 noon on inauguration day, when a new president is sworn in, the powers of the preceding president cease while federal statutes  limit or terminate the powers of some high-ranking executive branch personnel and other upper-echelon  public officers who operate the machinery of the executive branch.

It is illegal to act in contravention of these limits or terminations of executive-branch powers.





Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3167 on: July 30, 2020, 10:28:44 PM »




Indeed it would seem as if this Operation Legend establishes a trajectory for these particular Federal agents to secure Trump's power rather than secure our Constitutional order.

What do you think of Operation Legend concerning  the  principle of ordered liberty that forms the bedrock of civil society?
Ordered liberty allows for restrictions of rights of an individual for the greater good.it also relates to which rights are fundamental for purposes of due process. As I understand it, freedom of speech is one of those fundamental rights. Was the operation demonstrably for public good or some other purpose? Trump's public commentary leaves that open to debate. Dies the extension of actions beyond protection of federal property and suppression of protest (first amendment) on the greater side of the balance especially given that the protests were specifically about lack of process and discriminatory treatment by the judiciary? If it was just vandalism, do the feds have rights to extend beyond? If starting the operation knowingly escalate unrest does that meet the threshold? Or was it just a push question?

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3168 on: July 31, 2020, 02:14:46 AM »
Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.

Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:29:57 AM by gentmach »

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3169 on: July 31, 2020, 04:12:46 AM »
Right, because an overabundance of affordable housing is really the most urgent problem our nation is facing right now.

From the great mind that brought you "if we stop testing for Covid our numbers will stop going up" comes "if you stop building places for the poors to live, the poors won't live anywhere!".
The law in it's holy glory forbids everyone to steal bread and sleep under bridges, the rich the same as the beggars.


Quote
But there's a lot of people who can bring that to the table if you're willing to listen to them.
But the majority of them are Democrats! They are the enemy!! Don't listen to the enemy!!!

Literally every physician I ever met was a Republican. That may be a product of my username 8-)

My father is a physician, an immigrant, and a democrat.  But I can attest that he's vastly outnumbered by his republican counterparts at every medical function.
It is snipped here, but I am quite sure the term used was health workers. physicians (and other doctors) are not the majority there. We are talking about e.g. nurses. Are they included in "every medical function"?
What about cleaners, who a lot more for health than doctors per dollar paid.


If anyone is surprised by this, well, it must have been nice to live in a bubble completely shielded from reality for the last 4 years.

BBC: Donald Trump calls for delay to 2020 US presidential election

Actually this is the sanest proposal from Trump for weeks. And it even seemed birthed by a sincere worry about the people (read as: the old ones who are his main voters).
Who may even be too afraid to go voting, I am not sure if this thought was in his mind or not. If he is totally for mail vote next week, we know it was.

 
Everything I think he can't sink lower: https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1288509568578777088?s=20

I did wonder what he was trying to deflect and cover: 3 Months Of Hell: U.S. Economy Drops 32.9%, In Worst GDP Report Ever

HOLY CRAP. This is gonna be rough on the world. When US goes down, it takes the world market with it.

Other countries were even worse (Italy, Spain). They just calculate different so you don't get that high number. US calculate an all-year movement out of the quarterly data, while other give pure quarterly calcultions.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3170 on: July 31, 2020, 05:23:37 AM »




Indeed it would seem as if this Operation Legend establishes a trajectory for these particular Federal agents to secure Trump's power rather than secure our Constitutional order.

What do you think of Operation Legend concerning  the  principle of ordered liberty that forms the bedrock of civil society?

I'm not well-read enough to be useful in discussing "the principle of ordered liberty". Is it a reference to Federalist Papers or some other writing?

Obviously I believe in the natural rights that are expressed by The Constitution. Even if I didn't believe in them, I'd have to acknowledge that our society aspires to secure them for all people in that document.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 09:22:37 AM by talltexan »

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3171 on: July 31, 2020, 07:50:48 AM »
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/united-states-of-conspiracy/

So what are the limits of free speech? How much can the POTUS lie and get away with it?

I figure his BS is politically convenient to both sides so nothing will be done about it.

Still, seems very, very dangerous to leave it unchecked or at least strongly and publicly discredit it.

Fireball

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3172 on: July 31, 2020, 07:52:15 AM »
Election is happening Nov 3rd

Nothing the President can do about, no matter what he tweets. News organizations know this, government officials know this, but they're going to milk this fake outrage as long as possible. Gotta get those sweet, sweet rage clicks.

Hmm... could it be that the President is following his normal playbook and diverting attention from something else onto him?  Let's see here...  John Lewis is being eulogized in State (including in-person appearances by Obama, Bush and Clinton).  The US hits the highest single-day death totals in two months.  The economy had the largest quarter contraction ever.  Trump campaign is being investigated for misappropriating $170MM.  All of these (and more) have popped up in the last 24 hours.

No wonder he'd rather have people discussing whether the election has to be held on November 7th or a few weeks later...

I read that his tweet about extending the election came 15 minutes after the record breaking GDP numbers were released. Haven't confirmed that.

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3173 on: July 31, 2020, 08:09:27 AM »
Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.
Sounds cool doesn't it? "Diligent Valor." All they need is a Trump poster with him riding a big white stallion. That would be so cool. All hail our glorious savior! So how did that work out? Did the number of protesters decline? Did they stop throwing stuff and setting fires? Nope! It got worse. And the number injured skyrocketed

Quote
Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.
You aren't even arguing in good faith.

You know the real irony is that I actually give the administration more credit than you. You think they truly thought sending in federal agents would "prevent" what was going on. An intelligent leader would have first realized this course of action would backfire. I mean you don't throw gasoline on a little campfire thinking it will put it out. And of course once it was obvious the "strong-arm tactics" (being polite here) weren't working, an intelligent leader would seek a different approach. The rhetoric coming out of this administration, specifically Barr and Trump, has only provided more evidence of their true intentions.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:10:46 AM by MasterStache »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3174 on: July 31, 2020, 08:34:29 AM »
The US has been here before.  What other American President actually got impeached? Nixon.  Google Mother Jones on Nixon and Mayday.  Just don't tell your President, it might give him ideas.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3175 on: July 31, 2020, 08:40:26 AM »
The US has been here before.  What other American President actually got impeached? Nixon.  Google Mother Jones on Nixon and Mayday.  Just don't tell your President, it might give him ideas.

Clinton and Johnson as well I believe.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3176 on: July 31, 2020, 09:03:54 AM »
The US has been here before.  What other American President actually got impeached? Nixon.  Google Mother Jones on Nixon and Mayday.  Just don't tell your President, it might give him ideas.

Clinton and Johnson as well I believe.

Huh, the President Johnson was Andrew Johnson, 1868, not the one I was thinking of.  Clinton, yes.  I was wrong about Nixon, he resigned before he could be impeached.  Anyway, go Google Mother Jones Nixon Mayday.  It's deja vu time.

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3177 on: July 31, 2020, 09:29:51 AM »
Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.

Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.

That's funny, because now that the feds are gone it's peaceful again.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/31/portland-protests-latest-peaceful-night-federal-troops-withdrawal

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3178 on: July 31, 2020, 09:34:26 AM »
The US has been here before.  What other American President actually got impeached? Nixon.  Google Mother Jones on Nixon and Mayday.  Just don't tell your President, it might give him ideas.

Clinton and Johnson as well I believe.

Nixon was never impeached.  Articles were drafted but never ratified - he resigned before he could be impeached.  Call it a technicality if you want but it is what it is.

Johnson (1868), Clinton (1998) and Trump (2019) are the only presidents to be impeached.


RetiredAt63

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3179 on: July 31, 2020, 10:20:42 AM »
The US has been here before.  What other American President actually got impeached? Nixon.  Google Mother Jones on Nixon and Mayday.  Just don't tell your President, it might give him ideas.

Clinton and Johnson as well I believe.

Nixon was never impeached.  Articles were drafted but never ratified - he resigned before he could be impeached.  Call it a technicality if you want but it is what it is.

Johnson (1868), Clinton (1998) and Trump (2019) are the only presidents to be impeached.

I think our posts crossed, I had looked it up and corrected myself.  Of course, not being American, my first thought was that LBJ wasn't impeached.  Different Johnson.  ;-)

Deja vu again, while Nixon was President, Trudeau was Prime Minister.  ;-)   Too bad Justin can't ask Pierre how he dealt with Nixon.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:23:02 AM by RetiredAt63 »

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3180 on: July 31, 2020, 11:27:50 AM »
Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.

Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.

That's funny, because now that the feds are gone it's peaceful again.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/31/portland-protests-latest-peaceful-night-federal-troops-withdrawal

As I explained in a earlier post, Feds would leave when they decided the State would do its job.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/us/protests-portland-federal-withdrawal.html

"Federal officials confirmed an agreement but hedged on the timing, cautioning that a departure would depend on the success of the state’s promise to secure the area.

“Our entire law enforcement presence that was currently in Portland yesterday and the previous week will remain in Portland until we are assured that the courthouse and other federal facilities will no longer be attacked nightly,” Chad F. Wolf, the acting secretary of homeland security, told reporters on Wednesday."

The protesters had demanded ALL Feds leave. They were still there last night. And a team will still be stationed there. Only difference being now Oregon State Police are stationed outside the courthouse now. So the protests added more cops.


Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.
Sounds cool doesn't it? "Diligent Valor." All they need is a Trump poster with him riding a big white stallion. That would be so cool. All hail our glorious savior! So how did that work out? Did the number of protesters decline? Did they stop throwing stuff and setting fires? Nope! It got worse. And the number injured skyrocketed

Quote
Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.
You aren't even arguing in good faith.

You know the real irony is that I actually give the administration more credit than you. You think they truly thought sending in federal agents would "prevent" what was going on. An intelligent leader would have first realized this course of action would backfire. I mean you don't throw gasoline on a little campfire thinking it will put it out. And of course once it was obvious the "strong-arm tactics" (being polite here) weren't working, an intelligent leader would seek a different approach. The rhetoric coming out of this administration, specifically Barr and Trump, has only provided more evidence of their true intentions.

You link to an article that talks about how prosecutor isn't bringing charges against people arrested for arson.

And as I pointed out, the point of the protests were to reduce police presence in the city. The state police are stationed outside now. Were the protests successful?

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3181 on: July 31, 2020, 11:38:50 AM »
Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.

Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.

That's funny, because now that the feds are gone it's peaceful again.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/31/portland-protests-latest-peaceful-night-federal-troops-withdrawal

As I explained in a earlier post, Feds would leave when they decided the State would do its job.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/us/protests-portland-federal-withdrawal.html

"Federal officials confirmed an agreement but hedged on the timing, cautioning that a departure would depend on the success of the state’s promise to secure the area.

“Our entire law enforcement presence that was currently in Portland yesterday and the previous week will remain in Portland until we are assured that the courthouse and other federal facilities will no longer be attacked nightly,” Chad F. Wolf, the acting secretary of homeland security, told reporters on Wednesday."

The protesters had demanded ALL Feds leave. They were still there last night. And a team will still be stationed there. Only difference being now Oregon State Police are stationed outside the courthouse now. So the protests added more cops.


Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.
Sounds cool doesn't it? "Diligent Valor." All they need is a Trump poster with him riding a big white stallion. That would be so cool. All hail our glorious savior! So how did that work out? Did the number of protesters decline? Did they stop throwing stuff and setting fires? Nope! It got worse. And the number injured skyrocketed

Quote
Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.
You aren't even arguing in good faith.

You know the real irony is that I actually give the administration more credit than you. You think they truly thought sending in federal agents would "prevent" what was going on. An intelligent leader would have first realized this course of action would backfire. I mean you don't throw gasoline on a little campfire thinking it will put it out. And of course once it was obvious the "strong-arm tactics" (being polite here) weren't working, an intelligent leader would seek a different approach. The rhetoric coming out of this administration, specifically Barr and Trump, has only provided more evidence of their true intentions.

You link to an article that talks about how prosecutor isn't bringing charges against people arrested for arson.

And as I pointed out, the point of the protests were to reduce police presence in the city. The state police are stationed outside now. Were the protests successful?

Quote
On Wednesday, Oregon’s governor, Kate Brown, agreed with the White House that the state police would take over responsibility for guarding the courthouse after weeks of escalating protests. She said that “Trump’s troops” were behaving like an occupying army in Portland and provoking unrest with heavy-handed tactics.

In contrast, the state troopers did not intervene even when the scale of the protest on Thursday night passed the point, as demonstrators shook the fence around the courthouse, at which in early demonstrations the federal agents generally fired teargas, stun grenades and baton rounds.

In the absence of confrontation, and with the state police remaining largely unseen inside the courthouse, tensions quickly eased. Without the federal forces to draw attention, protest organisers kept the focus on Black Lives Matters and reform of the Portland police.

Despite the concerns of many in the crowd that the Trump administration would not fulfil the agreement to pull back the federal officers, none were seen on the streets.
Trump tweeted that the agents would remain in Portland until Brown brings the protests led by “anarchists and agitators” under control.

Don't take your news from Trump's twitter feed.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3182 on: July 31, 2020, 11:40:46 AM »
That's funny, because now that the feds are gone it's peaceful again.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/31/portland-protests-latest-peaceful-night-federal-troops-withdrawal

Not surprising at all. Setting aside the "professionals" who on other days would be football hooligans, we are talking about highly frustrated (to say it friendly) people here.

The situation has already exploded. People are on the streets and they are angry. Boy, are they angry!

You now have 2 (well, really 3) options:

1. Do the "firefighter" approach: Try to outwait it and let it burn down. (Not made easier with more bad things coming from cops and the orange ape with his fans.)
If something is already burning and you can't safe it securely, let it burn down and protect the houses around. And in this case it might even be literally the courthouse. After that the people have hopefully vented enough anger.

2. Trample out the fire. Use massive police forced (a... delicate move since the protests are about police violence), clouds of tear gas etc. You might succeed in getting people from the streets. But all you have done is gotten rid of the smoke. The fire is still burning underground, and who knows where it might spread and when it pops up again? And when it does, it will be at least as bad as before.

3. The dictatorial approach. Send in the army. Shed blood. Tiananmen-style. Scare the people more by your reaction than they are scared of the current situation. You make mortal enemies for life, but you may succeed in quelching the fire. Like taking out all oxygen out of a burning space craft. The fire is out, but anyone not in a functioning space suit... (aka run away in time)

The very worst thing you can do is pull off a 2.5
Like kidnapping a few people with unmarked vehicles and unidentified forces (or some that have no right to be there).
You don't scare people enough to hush up, but you give them more fear about the current situation. Or more reason to do whatever comes into their mind. Fear driven people WILL riot violently. (Which does not necessarily mean they damage a lot. They attack the oppressor, and who or what that is can be very different.)

An actual example of this is Hongkong. China has made the screws tighter an tighter. And with not allowing the protesters as candidates, they are basically at a 2.3 now.
If the Honkong people don't accept the result of the upcoming election, then either China has to do a strategic withdrawel (back to the 50-year contract) or there will be a real civil war and China will send in the tanks. With Corona and the orange ape on the other side, my bets are on the tanks.




gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3183 on: July 31, 2020, 12:08:20 PM »
Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.

Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.

That's funny, because now that the feds are gone it's peaceful again.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/31/portland-protests-latest-peaceful-night-federal-troops-withdrawal

As I explained in a earlier post, Feds would leave when they decided the State would do its job.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/us/protests-portland-federal-withdrawal.html

"Federal officials confirmed an agreement but hedged on the timing, cautioning that a departure would depend on the success of the state’s promise to secure the area.

“Our entire law enforcement presence that was currently in Portland yesterday and the previous week will remain in Portland until we are assured that the courthouse and other federal facilities will no longer be attacked nightly,” Chad F. Wolf, the acting secretary of homeland security, told reporters on Wednesday."

The protesters had demanded ALL Feds leave. They were still there last night. And a team will still be stationed there. Only difference being now Oregon State Police are stationed outside the courthouse now. So the protests added more cops.


Rioters broke into the courthouse on July 3rd. This was an escalation.
https://katu.com/news/local/portland-police-declare-riot-after-demonstrators-target-federal-courthouse

Your own link describes only about 200 demonstrators with "some" becoming unruly. Federal officials came outside around 11:45 to see some of the damage. Some demonstrators came back around 12:45 and were dispersed by local police. I agree, it was an escalation. Certainly nowhere near worthy of calling in the feds. Local police handled it pretty easily. How big are those crowds now? How many folks on both sides are getting injured? Good thing the Feds were able to de-escelate before anyone got hurt.

The Feds were deployed as part of operation "Diligent Valor" which was Trump's response to the property damage caused by riots. When the protesters returned the second time they threw mortars and attempted to start the courthouse on fire. Since police were unable to prevent that in the first place is probably why more Feds were brought in. As shown the protesters would just keep returning again and again.
Sounds cool doesn't it? "Diligent Valor." All they need is a Trump poster with him riding a big white stallion. That would be so cool. All hail our glorious savior! So how did that work out? Did the number of protesters decline? Did they stop throwing stuff and setting fires? Nope! It got worse. And the number injured skyrocketed

Quote
Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem. The problem wasn't going to be solved on the local level because even if it was only a "few" people doing it, they weren't punished or seriously prevented from trying again.
You aren't even arguing in good faith.

You know the real irony is that I actually give the administration more credit than you. You think they truly thought sending in federal agents would "prevent" what was going on. An intelligent leader would have first realized this course of action would backfire. I mean you don't throw gasoline on a little campfire thinking it will put it out. And of course once it was obvious the "strong-arm tactics" (being polite here) weren't working, an intelligent leader would seek a different approach. The rhetoric coming out of this administration, specifically Barr and Trump, has only provided more evidence of their true intentions.

You link to an article that talks about how prosecutor isn't bringing charges against people arrested for arson.

And as I pointed out, the point of the protests were to reduce police presence in the city. The state police are stationed outside now. Were the protests successful?

Quote
On Wednesday, Oregon’s governor, Kate Brown, agreed with the White House that the state police would take over responsibility for guarding the courthouse after weeks of escalating protests. She said that “Trump’s troops” were behaving like an occupying army in Portland and provoking unrest with heavy-handed tactics.

In contrast, the state troopers did not intervene even when the scale of the protest on Thursday night passed the point, as demonstrators shook the fence around the courthouse, at which in early demonstrations the federal agents generally fired teargas, stun grenades and baton rounds.

In the absence of confrontation, and with the state police remaining largely unseen inside the courthouse, tensions quickly eased. Without the federal forces to draw attention, protest organisers kept the focus on Black Lives Matters and reform of the Portland police.

Despite the concerns of many in the crowd that the Trump administration would not fulfil the agreement to pull back the federal officers, none were seen on the streets.
Trump tweeted that the agents would remain in Portland until Brown brings the protests led by “anarchists and agitators” under control.

Don't take your news from Trump's twitter feed.

I didn't.

Davnasty

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3184 on: July 31, 2020, 12:53:27 PM »

As I explained in a earlier post, Feds would leave when they decided the State would do its job.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/us/protests-portland-federal-withdrawal.html

"Federal officials confirmed an agreement but hedged on the timing, cautioning that a departure would depend on the success of the state’s promise to secure the area.

“Our entire law enforcement presence that was currently in Portland yesterday and the previous week will remain in Portland until we are assured that the courthouse and other federal facilities will no longer be attacked nightly,” Chad F. Wolf, the acting secretary of homeland security, told reporters on Wednesday."

There's always going to be two separate contradictory narratives of reality when dealing with Trump. Most of that article disagrees with Trump's narrative but somehow some people can disregard all that stuff and only see a few lines that sort of agree with them. Sometimes they even have to ignore Fox News:

"Later in the day, the president said on Twitter that Fox News had reported “incorrectly” about what was happening in Portland"


Some quotes from that article that would seem much more relevant in my opinion:

"But even as the president was doubling down, Vice President Mike Pence and other senior administration officials were negotiating an agreement with Oregon’s governor, Kate Brown, to begin withdrawing the federal tactical teams from Portland."

"Advisers to Ms. Brown said she acted in order to give the Trump administration “an exit strategy,” as one put it, from an increasingly volatile situation. The meeting marked the first substantial progress after weeks of an apparent stalemate."

So @gentmach, did you miss the parts that contradict your narrative or do you just believe them to be fake news?

Norioch

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3185 on: July 31, 2020, 01:48:26 PM »
Jared Kushner's covid-19 team argued against a national strategy to deal with the pandemic because they predicted that the virus would hit blue states worse than red states, and therefore it was politically advantageous to just let the virus run its course.

Kushner’s COVID-19 Team Ended Plan For Nationwide Testing Because They Didn’t Want To Help Blue States

It is not exaggeration or hyperbole to say that this administration is evil.

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3186 on: July 31, 2020, 01:54:15 PM »
You link to an article that talks about how prosecutor isn't bringing charges against people arrested for arson.
Eh, not entirely. Nine cases of folks charged with arson were dismissed. One case went before a grand jury before no indictment was rendered. That means it wasn't dismissed by the prosecutor. Now that's only one case but it proves you wrong already. Let's revisit your original claim:

Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem.
Quote form the article:
"KGW analysis of police and court records shows the Multnomah County District Attorney’s office dropped charges against at least 59 of the roughly 400 protesters arrested since mass demonstrations started in Portland in late May."

The bigger question here is why are you arguing in bad faith?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 01:57:22 PM by MasterStache »

gentmach

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3187 on: July 31, 2020, 02:08:26 PM »

As I explained in a earlier post, Feds would leave when they decided the State would do its job.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/us/protests-portland-federal-withdrawal.html

"Federal officials confirmed an agreement but hedged on the timing, cautioning that a departure would depend on the success of the state’s promise to secure the area.

“Our entire law enforcement presence that was currently in Portland yesterday and the previous week will remain in Portland until we are assured that the courthouse and other federal facilities will no longer be attacked nightly,” Chad F. Wolf, the acting secretary of homeland security, told reporters on Wednesday."

There's always going to be two separate contradictory narratives of reality when dealing with Trump. Most of that article disagrees with Trump's narrative but somehow some people can disregard all that stuff and only see a few lines that sort of agree with them. Sometimes they even have to ignore Fox News:

"Later in the day, the president said on Twitter that Fox News had reported “incorrectly” about what was happening in Portland"


Some quotes from that article that would seem much more relevant in my opinion:

"But even as the president was doubling down, Vice President Mike Pence and other senior administration officials were negotiating an agreement with Oregon’s governor, Kate Brown, to begin withdrawing the federal tactical teams from Portland."

"Advisers to Ms. Brown said she acted in order to give the Trump administration “an exit strategy,” as one put it, from an increasingly volatile situation. The meeting marked the first substantial progress after weeks of an apparent stalemate."

So @gentmach, did you miss the parts that contradict your narrative or do you just believe them to be fake news?

Checking the Live Streams only the State police appear.

Wednesday Stream: https://youtu.be/OwvsK389RWY?t=16518
Thursday Stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCA-8GC3Ehw

From Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-protests/portland-has-no-fires-arrests-as-feds-withdraw-idUSKCN24W24M

"Police chief Chuck Lovell tweeted his thanks to protesters who stopped attempts to light fires and throw projectiles on the 63rd night of demonstrations, when there were no arrests."

"DHS agents remained on standby and National Guard troops could be sent in should state police be overrun, DHS Acting Secretary Chad Wolf told Fox News."

From the Guardian Article: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/31/portland-protests-latest-peaceful-night-federal-troops-withdrawal

"Some in the crowd worked to avoid trouble by stopping demonstrators from lighting fires and shooting fireworks at the courthouse as they had done on previous nights."

It sounds like the protesters are trying to deescalate just as much as the State Cops are. also still sounds like Feds could be brought back in case of emergency. (The Reuters article has a picture they claim is Federal officers outside the Justice Center. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-protests/portland-has-no-fires-arrests-as-feds-withdraw-idUSKCN24W24M)
 
Also the contradiction between what the Governor said and what DHS Secretary said has caught the notice of others.

https://news.yahoo.com/oregon-gov-agrees-cooperate-dhs-175246485.html

https://www.aol.com/oregon-governor-says-feds-leave-163300730.html ("Hours later, Brown, asked to clarify the deal that had been reached, told NBC News that "the federal government has agreed to a phased withdrawal of federal officers from Portland, beginning Thursday.")

So you are correct that it is up to confirmation bias for who you believe.

You link to an article that talks about how prosecutor isn't bringing charges against people arrested for arson.
Eh, not entirely. Nine cases of folks charged with arson were dismissed. One case went before a grand jury before no indictment was rendered. That means it wasn't dismissed by the prosecutor. Now that's only one case but it proves you wrong already. Let's revisit your original claim:

Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem.
Quote form the article:
"KGW analysis of police and court records shows the Multnomah County District Attorney’s office dropped charges against at least 59 of the roughly 400 protesters arrested since mass demonstrations started in Portland in late May."

The bigger question here is why are you arguing in bad faith?

"KGW’s review of court and jail records found most of those suspects do not spend any time in jail; instead, they’re often given a citation or booked and released."

They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.

Davnasty

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3188 on: July 31, 2020, 02:41:41 PM »
Also the contradiction between what the Governor said and what DHS Secretary said has caught the notice of others.

Is any of this even relevant? Did they leave and remain on standby or did they leave altogether... this distinction really isn't that important to the debate.

The smaller question I was trying to address was, who took steps to de-escalate the situation and what did local police do differently than federal law enforcement which resulted in less violence?

The bigger questions are, was the local/state government's response inadequate and if so was the federal government's response justified, and if so was it helpful or harmful?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 02:50:26 PM by Davnasty »

MasterStache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3189 on: July 31, 2020, 03:44:40 PM »
They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.
Yeah, it would be pretty shitty to stash 400 people, most whom committed only minor offenses (misdemeanors), in a jail cell with the deadly pandemic raging across the US. In fact Portland decided long ago what to do with those who commit misdemeanors. Seems sensible and humane.

Our city released most of those they took into custody during protest a couple months ago. Maybe a handful were actually booked. They arrested so many one night that multiple school buses were brought in to transport them. Federal agents not needed.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 03:47:15 PM by MasterStache »

JLee

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3190 on: July 31, 2020, 03:58:15 PM »

As I explained in a earlier post, Feds would leave when they decided the State would do its job.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/us/protests-portland-federal-withdrawal.html

"Federal officials confirmed an agreement but hedged on the timing, cautioning that a departure would depend on the success of the state’s promise to secure the area.

“Our entire law enforcement presence that was currently in Portland yesterday and the previous week will remain in Portland until we are assured that the courthouse and other federal facilities will no longer be attacked nightly,” Chad F. Wolf, the acting secretary of homeland security, told reporters on Wednesday."

There's always going to be two separate contradictory narratives of reality when dealing with Trump. Most of that article disagrees with Trump's narrative but somehow some people can disregard all that stuff and only see a few lines that sort of agree with them. Sometimes they even have to ignore Fox News:

"Later in the day, the president said on Twitter that Fox News had reported “incorrectly” about what was happening in Portland"


Some quotes from that article that would seem much more relevant in my opinion:

"But even as the president was doubling down, Vice President Mike Pence and other senior administration officials were negotiating an agreement with Oregon’s governor, Kate Brown, to begin withdrawing the federal tactical teams from Portland."

"Advisers to Ms. Brown said she acted in order to give the Trump administration “an exit strategy,” as one put it, from an increasingly volatile situation. The meeting marked the first substantial progress after weeks of an apparent stalemate."

So @gentmach, did you miss the parts that contradict your narrative or do you just believe them to be fake news?

Checking the Live Streams only the State police appear.

Wednesday Stream: https://youtu.be/OwvsK389RWY?t=16518
Thursday Stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCA-8GC3Ehw

From Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-protests/portland-has-no-fires-arrests-as-feds-withdraw-idUSKCN24W24M

"Police chief Chuck Lovell tweeted his thanks to protesters who stopped attempts to light fires and throw projectiles on the 63rd night of demonstrations, when there were no arrests."

"DHS agents remained on standby and National Guard troops could be sent in should state police be overrun, DHS Acting Secretary Chad Wolf told Fox News."

From the Guardian Article: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/31/portland-protests-latest-peaceful-night-federal-troops-withdrawal

"Some in the crowd worked to avoid trouble by stopping demonstrators from lighting fires and shooting fireworks at the courthouse as they had done on previous nights."

It sounds like the protesters are trying to deescalate just as much as the State Cops are. also still sounds like Feds could be brought back in case of emergency. (The Reuters article has a picture they claim is Federal officers outside the Justice Center. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-race-protests/portland-has-no-fires-arrests-as-feds-withdraw-idUSKCN24W24M)
 
Also the contradiction between what the Governor said and what DHS Secretary said has caught the notice of others.

https://news.yahoo.com/oregon-gov-agrees-cooperate-dhs-175246485.html

https://www.aol.com/oregon-governor-says-feds-leave-163300730.html ("Hours later, Brown, asked to clarify the deal that had been reached, told NBC News that "the federal government has agreed to a phased withdrawal of federal officers from Portland, beginning Thursday.")

So you are correct that it is up to confirmation bias for who you believe.

You link to an article that talks about how prosecutor isn't bringing charges against people arrested for arson.
Eh, not entirely. Nine cases of folks charged with arson were dismissed. One case went before a grand jury before no indictment was rendered. That means it wasn't dismissed by the prosecutor. Now that's only one case but it proves you wrong already. Let's revisit your original claim:

Portland's prosecutors refused to charge any of the rioters who were arrested was the other problem.
Quote form the article:
"KGW analysis of police and court records shows the Multnomah County District Attorney’s office dropped charges against at least 59 of the roughly 400 protesters arrested since mass demonstrations started in Portland in late May."

The bigger question here is why are you arguing in bad faith?

"KGW’s review of court and jail records found most of those suspects do not spend any time in jail; instead, they’re often given a citation or booked and released."

They are essentially slapped on the wrist and let free. I was wrong in that they weren't being charged but nor are they actually prevented from going back to riot. Andy Ngo lists people that were arrested and released on his Twitter. Some have been arrested multiple times.

That's generally how arrests go. Did you think everyone who gets arrested is held without bail until a trial?

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3191 on: August 01, 2020, 08:35:59 AM »
Jared Kushner's covid-19 team argued against a national strategy to deal with the pandemic because they predicted that the virus would hit blue states worse than red states, and therefore it was politically advantageous to just let the virus run its course.

Kushner’s COVID-19 Team Ended Plan For Nationwide Testing Because They Didn’t Want To Help Blue States

It is not exaggeration or hyperbole to say that this administration is evil.

This allegation deserves more attention.

Roadrunner53

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3192 on: August 01, 2020, 12:51:23 PM »
This is despicable!

https://fortune.com/2020/07/24/usps-mail-delivery-postmaster-general-louis-dejoy-us-postal-service/

I don't even know when my mail is delivered anymore. It comes so late.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3193 on: August 01, 2020, 01:48:46 PM »
This is despicable!

https://fortune.com/2020/07/24/usps-mail-delivery-postmaster-general-louis-dejoy-us-postal-service/

I don't even know when my mail is delivered anymore. It comes so late.

Yep. We’ve been waiting on a prescription med (our insurance will only pay for it if it comes from their sponsored pharmacy-by-mail). It sat in the Las Vegas postal distribution center from July 23 until yesterday. It arrived in Detroit this morning. Who know when we’ll see it?

Fuck Trump and anyone shitty enough to still work with or for him.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3194 on: August 01, 2020, 02:01:46 PM »
This is despicable!

https://fortune.com/2020/07/24/usps-mail-delivery-postmaster-general-louis-dejoy-us-postal-service/

I don't even know when my mail is delivered anymore. It comes so late.

Yep. We’ve been waiting on a prescription med (our insurance will only pay for it if it comes from their sponsored pharmacy-by-mail). It sat in the Las Vegas postal distribution center from July 23 until yesterday. It arrived in Detroit this morning. Who know when we’ll see it?

Fuck Trump and anyone shitty enough to still work with or for him.

Are you suggesting that a government run service proven to work as well or better than the free market approach should not be sabotaged by the government?  Bunch of commies.  Good thing the Republicans are here to save you.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3195 on: August 01, 2020, 02:06:41 PM »
This is despicable!

https://fortune.com/2020/07/24/usps-mail-delivery-postmaster-general-louis-dejoy-us-postal-service/

I don't even know when my mail is delivered anymore. It comes so late.

Yep. We’ve been waiting on a prescription med (our insurance will only pay for it if it comes from their sponsored pharmacy-by-mail). It sat in the Las Vegas postal distribution center from July 23 until yesterday. It arrived in Detroit this morning. Who know when we’ll see it?

Fuck Trump and anyone shitty enough to still work with or for him.

Are you suggesting that a government run service proven to work as well or better than the free market approach should not be sabotaged by the government?  Bunch of commies.  Good thing the Republicans are here to save you.

If that makes me a commie, then I will proudly wear a red star.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3196 on: August 01, 2020, 02:19:46 PM »
This is all part of Trump's plan.   Now that the "corrupt politicians" have unfairly refused to delay the election for covid, he wants to ensure that mail-in voting won't work.   MAGA!

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3197 on: August 01, 2020, 02:30:23 PM »
This is all part of Trump's plan.   Now that the "corrupt politicians" have unfairly refused to delay the election for covid, he wants to ensure that mail-in voting won't work.   MAGA!

Yep, it’s why I’ve been telling everyone to drop their absentee ballots off at their municipal clerk offices for the last couple of weeks. Who wants to bet that the mail will resume its normal speed after Tuesday and will slow down again in mid-September (when the next round of absentee ballots are released)? I bet we’ll also see a nationwide shutdown of public buildings in late October/early November so that the clerks and secretaries of states can’t do their jobs.

Vote early if you can, Americans, otherwise you may not be able to vote at all.

Norioch

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3198 on: August 01, 2020, 05:45:27 PM »
We already saw this happen in the Wisconsin primary. Many voters literally didn't get their ballots in time and couldn't vote. The Wisconsin governor wanted to allow them to mail in their votes late and have them still be counted, but SCOTUS wouldn't let that happen. That was a test run. It's 100% going to happen again in the general election this November. The election is going to be a total shitshow. Trump is going to do everything in his power to rig it, and he might succeed.

rocketpj

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #3199 on: August 01, 2020, 06:37:13 PM »

 I have a feeling there are a lot of Executive Branch employees that would be eager to have a legal reason to tell him where to stick it. 

At 12 noon on inauguration day, when a new president is sworn in, the powers of the preceding president cease while federal statutes  limit or terminate the powers of some high-ranking executive branch personnel and other upper-echelon  public officers who operate the machinery of the executive branch.

It is illegal to act in contravention of these limits or terminations of executive-branch powers.

This matters if you have any respect whatsoever for the rule of law in a constitutional society.  I am seeing little evidence of this in Trump and his coterie.