Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 297343 times)

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13892
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2900 on: July 16, 2020, 04:47:49 PM »
Iíve been waiting for years for Rush Limbaugh to leave the US after Obamacare passed, but no soap.

Where would he go?  Not Canada. Socialist hell that we are.    /s

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2901 on: July 16, 2020, 05:03:29 PM »
Probably one of the tax-haven islands, like Nevis?

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3178
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2902 on: July 16, 2020, 06:18:24 PM »
White House: "Science should not stand in the way" of opening schools - uh, so we should teach our kids about how dumb the White House push to force kids back to reopened schools amid a spreading pandemic is I guess...  I'd teach that class, except I don't want to get infected in a country that has no ER/ICU capacity.
Listen to the full quote, starting about there to the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHCUYxjpako#t=50s

Or listen to the first 50 seconds also - just trying to save some time....

Looking at quotes (because I find watching videos uber-tedious), it sounds like the WH is citing journal articles that covid is no worse for kids than the seasonal flu. I did not chase down the article, but it seems like that misses the point. The issue is transmission. Maybe the kids won't die (I don't know about comorbidities in kids with Covid), but they can transmit it between families. Concurrently, there are groups fighting against having masks at schools if/when they do reopen (see recent stories out of Salt Lake City).


There's also emerging evidence that everyone who gets this will have lasting heart, lung, and possibly mental side effects.  The DoD declared a couple months ago that it would not accept any applicants for enlistment if they contracted COVID19.  It might be years before they reverse that decision. Anti-mask Republicans probably don't realize this is a national security issue now.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2903 on: July 16, 2020, 07:16:36 PM »
White House: "Science should not stand in the way" of opening schools - uh, so we should teach our kids about how dumb the White House push to force kids back to reopened schools amid a spreading pandemic is I guess...  I'd teach that class, except I don't want to get infected in a country that has no ER/ICU capacity.

Welp - hate to say it.

You are fake news.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5649
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2904 on: July 16, 2020, 07:30:09 PM »
White House: "Science should not stand in the way" of opening schools - uh, so we should teach our kids about how dumb the White House push to force kids back to reopened schools amid a spreading pandemic is I guess...  I'd teach that class, except I don't want to get infected in a country that has no ER/ICU capacity.


Welp - hate to say it.

You are fake news.

Lmao

So, how would you interpret Kayleighís quote that ďscience should not stand in the wayĒ?

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2905 on: July 16, 2020, 07:44:18 PM »
Fox has a lengthy explanation that it was out of context while she was presenting the results of several peer-reviewed studies that basically say it's safe for schools to open.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2906 on: July 16, 2020, 07:53:20 PM »
White House: "Science should not stand in the way" of opening schools - uh, so we should teach our kids about how dumb the White House push to force kids back to reopened schools amid a spreading pandemic is I guess...  I'd teach that class, except I don't want to get infected in a country that has no ER/ICU capacity.


Welp - hate to say it.

You are fake news.

Lmao

So, how would you interpret Kayleighís quote that ďscience should not stand in the wayĒ?

Turn off MSNBC for a minute and watch what she said

Even Jake rapper from CNN is defending her.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1283849893652635649


Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5649
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2907 on: July 16, 2020, 08:01:14 PM »
White House: "Science should not stand in the way" of opening schools - uh, so we should teach our kids about how dumb the White House push to force kids back to reopened schools amid a spreading pandemic is I guess...  I'd teach that class, except I don't want to get infected in a country that has no ER/ICU capacity.


Welp - hate to say it.

You are fake news.

Lmao

So, how would you interpret Kayleighís quote that ďscience should not stand in the wayĒ?

Turn off MSNBC for a minute and watch what she said

Even Jake rapper from CNN is defending her.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1283849893652635649

Uh, I watched the entire presser.

I donít watch MSNBC. Like at all.

Kayleigh has no shame. She would have to not, to be in this administration.

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10356
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2908 on: July 16, 2020, 08:08:17 PM »
Lmao

So, how would you interpret Kayleighís quote that ďscience should not stand in the wayĒ?
The same way one should interpret Obama's "I've now been to 57 states" - a slip of the tongue that only the hyper-partisan would use to "prove" anything.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5649
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2909 on: July 16, 2020, 08:14:03 PM »
Lmao

So, how would you interpret Kayleighís quote that ďscience should not stand in the wayĒ?
The same way one should interpret Obama's "I've now been to 57 states" - a slip of the tongue that only the hyper-partisan would use to "prove" anything.


Except she has these ďslipsĒ more or less daily. So...

MDM

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10356
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2910 on: July 16, 2020, 08:42:50 PM »
Lmao

So, how would you interpret Kayleighís quote that ďscience should not stand in the wayĒ?
The same way one should interpret Obama's "I've now been to 57 states" - a slip of the tongue that only the hyper-partisan would use to "prove" anything.
Except she has these ďslipsĒ more or less daily. So...
Other statements may well be fair game - have at them. :)

This one, given the context of comments she made seconds later, was just a slip.

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2656
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2911 on: July 16, 2020, 11:41:32 PM »
Lmao

So, how would you interpret Kayleighís quote that ďscience should not stand in the wayĒ?
The same way one should interpret Obama's "I've now been to 57 states" - a slip of the tongue that only the hyper-partisan would use to "prove" anything.
Except she has these ďslipsĒ more or less daily. So...
Other statements may well be fair game - have at them. :)

This one, given the context of comments she made seconds later, was just a slip.
While I do think there is a solid argument for it being a Kinsley gaffe, this probably isn't the quote to worked up about. The policy and actions are outrageous enough on their merits and apparent outcomes.

lemanfan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 964
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2912 on: July 17, 2020, 02:33:50 AM »
There's also emerging evidence that everyone who gets this will have lasting heart, lung, and possibly mental side effects.  The DoD declared a couple months ago that it would not accept any applicants for enlistment if they contracted COVID19.  It might be years before they reverse that decision. Anti-mask Republicans probably don't realize this is a national security issue now.

I think the military question has evolved a bit.  In the beginning I understood it as it was only persons hospitalized with COVID-19 that was banned and now they seem to have relaxed even that as far as I understand:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/05/21/the-ban-on-covid-19-survivors-joining-up-has-lifted-but-some-cases-could-still-be-denied/


LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2108
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2913 on: July 17, 2020, 04:10:01 AM »
I think you guys still underestimate the long term effects.
First of all it seems that you don't get a long immunity. So even if we have successful vaccines, we would need to take them yearly. Anti-vaccers? lol

Second: It is still not sure how many and how bad for how long after-effects are. But if you can have lung damange that would be a "never enver dive" from a doctor even without having Covid symptoms, and similar things may be true for brain and heart damage...

Just 1% of population affected with something where the result is life long either costly treatment or unable to work - that is a tremendous societal cost!

Everyone who still says that this is not worse than the flu (which bad enough) should get shamed openly in big way. That may be the only to barely stop before a catatrosphe.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3178
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2914 on: July 17, 2020, 04:52:57 AM »
There's also emerging evidence that everyone who gets this will have lasting heart, lung, and possibly mental side effects.  The DoD declared a couple months ago that it would not accept any applicants for enlistment if they contracted COVID19.  It might be years before they reverse that decision. Anti-mask Republicans probably don't realize this is a national security issue now.

I think the military question has evolved a bit.  In the beginning I understood it as it was only persons hospitalized with COVID-19 that was banned and now they seem to have relaxed even that as far as I understand:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/05/21/the-ban-on-covid-19-survivors-joining-up-has-lifted-but-some-cases-could-still-be-denied/

It's those last two paragraphs that I'm latched onto. If they find even in "individual" cases that there's enough damage, they could easily flip the script back to the general ban.  It's up to the chief medical officer of the processing station to allow or waive certain medical conditions and they're not known for accepting risk.  Uncle Taxpayer is probably going to be paying me disability to some degree for several years of breathing burning shit, crude oil, and various other materials. I don't see them ponying up for a generation of young soldiers coming through the gate with reduced lung and heart capacity if it starts to look like a trend.

lemanfan

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 964
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2915 on: July 17, 2020, 06:45:08 AM »
There's also emerging evidence that everyone who gets this will have lasting heart, lung, and possibly mental side effects.  The DoD declared a couple months ago that it would not accept any applicants for enlistment if they contracted COVID19.  It might be years before they reverse that decision. Anti-mask Republicans probably don't realize this is a national security issue now.

I think the military question has evolved a bit.  In the beginning I understood it as it was only persons hospitalized with COVID-19 that was banned and now they seem to have relaxed even that as far as I understand:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/05/21/the-ban-on-covid-19-survivors-joining-up-has-lifted-but-some-cases-could-still-be-denied/

It's those last two paragraphs that I'm latched onto. If they find even in "individual" cases that there's enough damage, they could easily flip the script back to the general ban.  It's up to the chief medical officer of the processing station to allow or waive certain medical conditions and they're not known for accepting risk.  Uncle Taxpayer is probably going to be paying me disability to some degree for several years of breathing burning shit, crude oil, and various other materials. I don't see them ponying up for a generation of young soldiers coming through the gate with reduced lung and heart capacity if it starts to look like a trend.

It seems to me that you might be exaggerating both statements a bit here? 

At least I haven't seen many people or sources yet state that "everyone who gets this will have lasting heart, lung, and possibly mental side effects".  Some clearly show these side effects, but we don't know yet how many or how long.
Likewise, the military may disqualify some applicants but that's not the same as saying it "would not accept any applicants for enlistment if they contracted COVID19".

Of course, increased knowledge may change both these statements as time goes on, but at the moment I don't think we're served by exaggerations. This illness, and the resulting social, human, financial and political implications are severe enough anyway.

But this is getting further and further from the Trump outrage discussions.  Sorry.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2916 on: July 17, 2020, 07:24:04 AM »
All reasonable points.

Saying that the White House said "Science should not stand in the way" is akin to those who made a big deal of "Obama said there are 57 states."

It's not the same. Obama made a little slip of the tongue and said 57 instead of 47, fine. But then the right turned it into a huge deal, including claiming that he's secretly referring to the "57 islamic states" because he's a secret Muslim or something. It was a completely made-up "issue", there's nothing there to be outraged about!

In this case we have a White House that is DISHONESTLY using child-death statistics to claim that it's perfectly safe to re-open schools, which doesn't address the actual point. There is an actual thing to be outraged about here, which is that Trump and co are actually misrepresenting the situation and undermining public safety in a single-minded drive to improve the economy and thus his re-election chances, and they don't care how many people die along the way. Which you yourself admit to an extent!

Does "Science should not stand in our way" as a headline sound misleading, because your first assumption (given this administration's past actions) is that they are out-right denying science, not that they're claiming "it's on our side"? Yes, it is misleading, and yes, they shouldn't have run it, and yes, everyone should do better at paying attention to the actual body of the article, not the headline.

But I'd be willing to bet that this particular thing has already fizzled out, given as other's point out that everyone seems to be against this misleading headline. Whereas the right milked the "57 states" fake-issue for months, including Trump himself (4 months later!), because they had nothing of substance to attack him on.

This is the difference between the left and right. A leftish news organization uses a misleading headline, and there is a brief flurry for a day and then everyone promptly criticizes them for it, and the world moves on. On the right, they manufacture fake issues and then embed them in conspiracy theories and outright propaganda and reinforce them constantly for forever. No it is not the same.

Travis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3178
  • Location: South Korea
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2917 on: July 17, 2020, 07:30:52 AM »
There's also emerging evidence that everyone who gets this will have lasting heart, lung, and possibly mental side effects.  The DoD declared a couple months ago that it would not accept any applicants for enlistment if they contracted COVID19.  It might be years before they reverse that decision. Anti-mask Republicans probably don't realize this is a national security issue now.

I think the military question has evolved a bit.  In the beginning I understood it as it was only persons hospitalized with COVID-19 that was banned and now they seem to have relaxed even that as far as I understand:

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/05/21/the-ban-on-covid-19-survivors-joining-up-has-lifted-but-some-cases-could-still-be-denied/

It's those last two paragraphs that I'm latched onto. If they find even in "individual" cases that there's enough damage, they could easily flip the script back to the general ban.  It's up to the chief medical officer of the processing station to allow or waive certain medical conditions and they're not known for accepting risk.  Uncle Taxpayer is probably going to be paying me disability to some degree for several years of breathing burning shit, crude oil, and various other materials. I don't see them ponying up for a generation of young soldiers coming through the gate with reduced lung and heart capacity if it starts to look like a trend.

It seems to me that you might be exaggerating both statements a bit here? 

At least I haven't seen many people or sources yet state that "everyone who gets this will have lasting heart, lung, and possibly mental side effects".  Some clearly show these side effects, but we don't know yet how many or how long.
Likewise, the military may disqualify some applicants but that's not the same as saying it "would not accept any applicants for enlistment if they contracted COVID19".

Of course, increased knowledge may change both these statements as time goes on, but at the moment I don't think we're served by exaggerations. This illness, and the resulting social, human, financial and political implications are severe enough anyway.

But this is getting further and further from the Trump outrage discussions.  Sorry.

It is off topic, but I will conclude here that I'm speaking from first hand experience. I just wrapped up a couple years in Army recruiting.  The medical side of the system doesn't take chances and makes blanket judgments on these things all the time.  It's possible they'll do exactly what they say here and take every case individually and life goes on. If it turns out there's enough evidence of long term complications from case by case examinations, it would not be without precedent for the military to exclude that entire category of people.

DarkandStormy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1405
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Midwest, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2918 on: July 17, 2020, 07:31:05 AM »
There actually are 57 U.S. states AND territories.

But yeah, Obama wasn't President when he said it, was technically correct, and his utterance of the phrase - PAUSES FOR DRAMATIC EFFECT - *HAD NO INFLUENCE ON THE LIVES AND HEALTH OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY.*

Anyone trying to deflect with a "but Obama" is an obvious troll.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2919 on: July 17, 2020, 07:36:45 AM »
All reasonable points.

Saying that the White House said "Science should not stand in the way" is akin to those who made a big deal of "Obama said there are 57 states."

It's not the same. Obama made a little slip of the tongue and said 57 instead of 47, fine. But then the right turned it into a huge deal, including claiming that he's secretly referring to the "57 islamic states" because he's a secret Muslim or something. It was a completely made-up "issue", there's nothing there to be outraged about!

In this case we have a White House that is DISHONESTLY using child-death statistics to claim that it's perfectly safe to re-open schools, which doesn't address the actual point. There is an actual thing to be outraged about here, which is that Trump and co are actually misrepresenting the situation and undermining public safety in a single-minded drive to improve the economy and thus his re-election chances, and they don't care how many people die along the way. Which you yourself admit to an extent!

Does "Science should not stand in our way" as a headline sound misleading, because your first assumption (given this administration's past actions) is that they are out-right denying science, not that they're claiming "it's on our side"? Yes, it is misleading, and yes, they shouldn't have run it, and yes, everyone should do better at paying attention to the actual body of the article, not the headline.

But I'd be willing to bet that this particular thing has already fizzled out, given as other's point out that everyone seems to be against this misleading headline. Whereas the right milked the "57 states" fake-issue for months, including Trump himself (4 months later!), because they had nothing of substance to attack him on.

This is the difference between the left and right. A leftish news organization uses a misleading headline, and there is a brief flurry for a day and then everyone promptly criticizes them for it, and the world moves on. On the right, they manufacture fake issues and then embed them in conspiracy theories and outright propaganda and reinforce them constantly for forever. No it is not the same.

After three years of the left telling itself Fairy tales that trump is a secret Russian agent youíre claiming the left doesnít indulge in conspiracy theories?

Thatís a bold move.

LennStar

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2108
  • Location: Germany
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2920 on: July 17, 2020, 08:03:06 AM »
After three years of the left telling itself Fairy tales that trump is a secret Russian agent youíre claiming the left doesnít indulge in conspiracy theories?

Thatís a bold move.
I have never heard someone saying it with with the literal meaning (e.g. that he is paid by the KGB).
I have certainly heard a lot of people that he is Putins Dream Boy (very likely as easy as he is to handle), or that Putin wags him like his tail (dito) or that Trump got help in the election from Putin, for that very reason (I think that is now proven?). 

Let's play the right's favorite game here: BUT OBAMA!!
But when it was about Obama, about half of the right seemed to be serious that he is not born in the US and a secret Muslim Agent of an agency the speakers could not name for lack of existance. Sor far not a single thing like that has been going round in the left, as far as I am aware. The closest thing are the "conspiracy theories" that Trump is a psychopath, and you can find thousands of professional mental health doctors that would say "I can't do a diagnosis just from TV, but it certainly looks like it".

But back to topic: Nobody said that individuals - or whole groups - are not soometimes into conspiracy theories. The way the press works (the more enraging the more clicks, the more money, so the make it XXL) certainly helps here.
But while the vast majority of lefts not only follow conspiracy theories a lot less, they are also a lot more likely to let them go when confronted with science that proves that it is wrong.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2921 on: July 17, 2020, 08:11:37 AM »
All reasonable points.

Saying that the White House said "Science should not stand in the way" is akin to those who made a big deal of "Obama said there are 57 states."

It's not the same. Obama made a little slip of the tongue and said 57 instead of 47, fine. But then the right turned it into a huge deal, including claiming that he's secretly referring to the "57 islamic states" because he's a secret Muslim or something. It was a completely made-up "issue", there's nothing there to be outraged about!

In this case we have a White House that is DISHONESTLY using child-death statistics to claim that it's perfectly safe to re-open schools, which doesn't address the actual point. There is an actual thing to be outraged about here, which is that Trump and co are actually misrepresenting the situation and undermining public safety in a single-minded drive to improve the economy and thus his re-election chances, and they don't care how many people die along the way. Which you yourself admit to an extent!

Does "Science should not stand in our way" as a headline sound misleading, because your first assumption (given this administration's past actions) is that they are out-right denying science, not that they're claiming "it's on our side"? Yes, it is misleading, and yes, they shouldn't have run it, and yes, everyone should do better at paying attention to the actual body of the article, not the headline.

But I'd be willing to bet that this particular thing has already fizzled out, given as other's point out that everyone seems to be against this misleading headline. Whereas the right milked the "57 states" fake-issue for months, including Trump himself (4 months later!), because they had nothing of substance to attack him on.

This is the difference between the left and right. A leftish news organization uses a misleading headline, and there is a brief flurry for a day and then everyone promptly criticizes them for it, and the world moves on. On the right, they manufacture fake issues and then embed them in conspiracy theories and outright propaganda and reinforce them constantly for forever. No it is not the same.

After three years of the left telling itself Fairy tales that trump is a secret Russian agent youíre claiming the left doesnít indulge in conspiracy theories?

Thatís a bold move.

You are so obviously a troll in all of your posts that I'm hesitant to ever respond to you, but I'll make the mistake this once. The specific claim was that this headline is equivalent to the "57 states" thing, and it obviously isn't. And you obviously have no defense against that argument, or you would have used it.

If you want to claim that "the left" (completely nebulous, who? media? politicians? bloggers? facebookers? who exactly?) has a "fairy tale conspiracy theory" that Trump is a "Russian agent", then you are free to use actual sources to attempt to argue that conspiracy theories are a "both sides are equally as bad" issue. What I have seen is that they are correctly pointing out facts that point to an reality-based overall pattern of Trump being subservient to Russia, even at his own country's peril. Most recently with the bounties on our military, and also the one-sided sharing of our intelligence with them for no apparent reason, but see also Trump/Putin Helsinki press conference, or Trump's repeated attempts to undermine NATO, or any number of other things.

Is this related to the fact that Russia helped get Trump elected and are planning on doing it again, according to all of our intelligence and defense agencies? Is it related to the fact that Russian banks have repeatedly funded the Trump's business ventures after US banks cut him off? Is it related to how the authoritarian-Christian right loves authoritarian-Christian Russia now? Who knows exactly.

But if you want to dismiss the whole thing - all of the real facts involved - as nothing more than a "left wing fairy tale conspiracy-theory", then you're going to have to put more effort into it than troll one-liners.

Or don't, if that's all you're capable of.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2922 on: July 17, 2020, 08:30:54 AM »
All reasonable points.

Saying that the White House said "Science should not stand in the way" is akin to those who made a big deal of "Obama said there are 57 states."

It's not the same. Obama made a little slip of the tongue and said 57 instead of 47, fine. But then the right turned it into a huge deal, including claiming that he's secretly referring to the "57 islamic states" because he's a secret Muslim or something. It was a completely made-up "issue", there's nothing there to be outraged about!

In this case we have a White House that is DISHONESTLY using child-death statistics to claim that it's perfectly safe to re-open schools, which doesn't address the actual point. There is an actual thing to be outraged about here, which is that Trump and co are actually misrepresenting the situation and undermining public safety in a single-minded drive to improve the economy and thus his re-election chances, and they don't care how many people die along the way. Which you yourself admit to an extent!

Does "Science should not stand in our way" as a headline sound misleading, because your first assumption (given this administration's past actions) is that they are out-right denying science, not that they're claiming "it's on our side"? Yes, it is misleading, and yes, they shouldn't have run it, and yes, everyone should do better at paying attention to the actual body of the article, not the headline.

But I'd be willing to bet that this particular thing has already fizzled out, given as other's point out that everyone seems to be against this misleading headline. Whereas the right milked the "57 states" fake-issue for months, including Trump himself (4 months later!), because they had nothing of substance to attack him on.

This is the difference between the left and right. A leftish news organization uses a misleading headline, and there is a brief flurry for a day and then everyone promptly criticizes them for it, and the world moves on. On the right, they manufacture fake issues and then embed them in conspiracy theories and outright propaganda and reinforce them constantly for forever. No it is not the same.

After three years of the left telling itself Fairy tales that trump is a secret Russian agent youíre claiming the left doesnít indulge in conspiracy theories?

Thatís a bold move.

You are so obviously a troll in all of your posts that I'm hesitant to ever respond to you, but I'll make the mistake this once. The specific claim was that this headline is equivalent to the "57 states" thing, and it obviously isn't. And you obviously have no defense against that argument, or you would have used it.

If you want to claim that "the left" (completely nebulous, who? media? politicians? bloggers? facebookers? who exactly?) has a "fairy tale conspiracy theory" that Trump is a "Russian agent", then you are free to use actual sources to attempt to argue that conspiracy theories are a "both sides are equally as bad" issue. What I have seen is that they are correctly pointing out facts that point to an reality-based overall pattern of Trump being subservient to Russia, even at his own country's peril. Most recently with the bounties on our military, and also the one-sided sharing of our intelligence with them for no apparent reason, but see also Trump/Putin Helsinki press conference, or Trump's repeated attempts to undermine NATO, or any number of other things.

Is this related to the fact that Russia helped get Trump elected and are planning on doing it again, according to all of our intelligence and defense agencies? Is it related to the fact that Russian banks have repeatedly funded the Trump's business ventures after US banks cut him off? Is it related to how the authoritarian-Christian right loves authoritarian-Christian Russia now? Who knows exactly.

But if you want to dismiss the whole thing - all of the real facts involved - as nothing more than a "left wing fairy tale conspiracy-theory", then you're going to have to put more effort into it than troll one-liners.

Or don't, if that's all you're capable of.

Iím not going to defend crazy people who took the 57 states comment and blew it up into something when it is nothing. Itís crazy. What do you want me to say on the matter other than I agree it was a slip of the tongue.

Conspiracy theories start from somewhere so the ďevidenceĒ you linked supports it but it remains a theory. I canít prove it or disprove it. The Russia debate has been hashed out I donít think anyone is changing their minds at this point.

Who claims trumps a Russian asset ? Well lots of people. Here is a link to al Frankens podcast from February of this year were him
And a guest continue to make that exact argument.


https://alfranken.com/listen/intelligence-expert-malcolm-nance-makes-the-convincing-case-that-trump-is-a-russian-asset

This forum leans left - which is fine. I would hope providing a centrist / conservative viewpoint on some issues would be welcome. But i guess that makes me a troll. I like trolls. My kids love that movie
:)

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2923 on: July 17, 2020, 08:34:23 AM »
After three years of the left telling itself Fairy tales that trump is a secret Russian agent youíre claiming the left doesnít indulge in conspiracy theories?

Thatís a bold move.
I have never heard someone saying it with with the literal meaning (e.g. that he is paid by the KGB).
I have certainly heard a lot of people that he is Putins Dream Boy (very likely as easy as he is to handle), or that Putin wags him like his tail (dito) or that Trump got help in the election from Putin, for that very reason (I think that is now proven?). 

Let's play the right's favorite game here: BUT OBAMA!!
But when it was about Obama, about half of the right seemed to be serious that he is not born in the US and a secret Muslim Agent of an agency the speakers could not name for lack of existance. Sor far not a single thing like that has been going round in the left, as far as I am aware. The closest thing are the "conspiracy theories" that Trump is a psychopath, and you can find thousands of professional mental health doctors that would say "I can't do a diagnosis just from TV, but it certainly looks like it".

But back to topic: Nobody said that individuals - or whole groups - are not soometimes into conspiracy theories. The way the press works (the more enraging the more clicks, the more money, so the make it XXL) certainly helps here.
But while the vast majority of lefts not only follow conspiracy theories a lot less, they are also a lot more likely to let them go when confronted with science that proves that it is wrong.

Al Franken isnít letting it go. But if you agree with Al franken then I guess your viewpoint on this would differ from mine.

https://alfranken.com/listen/intelligence-expert-malcolm-nance-makes-the-convincing-case-that-trump-is-a-russian-asset

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2924 on: July 17, 2020, 08:37:32 AM »
All reasonable points.

Saying that the White House said "Science should not stand in the way" is akin to those who made a big deal of "Obama said there are 57 states."

It's not the same. Obama made a little slip of the tongue and said 57 instead of 47, fine. But then the right turned it into a huge deal, including claiming that he's secretly referring to the "57 islamic states" because he's a secret Muslim or something. It was a completely made-up "issue", there's nothing there to be outraged about!

In this case we have a White House that is DISHONESTLY using child-death statistics to claim that it's perfectly safe to re-open schools, which doesn't address the actual point. There is an actual thing to be outraged about here, which is that Trump and co are actually misrepresenting the situation and undermining public safety in a single-minded drive to improve the economy and thus his re-election chances, and they don't care how many people die along the way. Which you yourself admit to an extent!

Does "Science should not stand in our way" as a headline sound misleading, because your first assumption (given this administration's past actions) is that they are out-right denying science, not that they're claiming "it's on our side"? Yes, it is misleading, and yes, they shouldn't have run it, and yes, everyone should do better at paying attention to the actual body of the article, not the headline.

But I'd be willing to bet that this particular thing has already fizzled out, given as other's point out that everyone seems to be against this misleading headline. Whereas the right milked the "57 states" fake-issue for months, including Trump himself (4 months later!), because they had nothing of substance to attack him on.

This is the difference between the left and right. A leftish news organization uses a misleading headline, and there is a brief flurry for a day and then everyone promptly criticizes them for it, and the world moves on. On the right, they manufacture fake issues and then embed them in conspiracy theories and outright propaganda and reinforce them constantly for forever. No it is not the same.

After three years of the left telling itself Fairy tales that trump is a secret Russian agent youíre claiming the left doesnít indulge in conspiracy theories?

Thatís a bold move.
So for shits and grins I Googled "Trump Secret Russian Agent" and only got one hit the first couple of pages. It was actually a very interesting read. Then I googled "Obama birth certificate" and got pages of hits.

There is no question "both sides do it" to some extent. There is also no question the right partakes in far more conspiracy theories in quantity and utter ridiculousness. These conspiracy theories often affect policy, lives, etc. Those are just Trump pushed conspiracy theories. How about this one pushed by the guy he just commuted a prison sentence for?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 08:41:42 AM by MasterStache »

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2925 on: July 17, 2020, 08:43:35 AM »
All reasonable points.

Saying that the White House said "Science should not stand in the way" is akin to those who made a big deal of "Obama said there are 57 states."

It's not the same. Obama made a little slip of the tongue and said 57 instead of 47, fine. But then the right turned it into a huge deal, including claiming that he's secretly referring to the "57 islamic states" because he's a secret Muslim or something. It was a completely made-up "issue", there's nothing there to be outraged about!

In this case we have a White House that is DISHONESTLY using child-death statistics to claim that it's perfectly safe to re-open schools, which doesn't address the actual point. There is an actual thing to be outraged about here, which is that Trump and co are actually misrepresenting the situation and undermining public safety in a single-minded drive to improve the economy and thus his re-election chances, and they don't care how many people die along the way. Which you yourself admit to an extent!

Does "Science should not stand in our way" as a headline sound misleading, because your first assumption (given this administration's past actions) is that they are out-right denying science, not that they're claiming "it's on our side"? Yes, it is misleading, and yes, they shouldn't have run it, and yes, everyone should do better at paying attention to the actual body of the article, not the headline.

But I'd be willing to bet that this particular thing has already fizzled out, given as other's point out that everyone seems to be against this misleading headline. Whereas the right milked the "57 states" fake-issue for months, including Trump himself (4 months later!), because they had nothing of substance to attack him on.

This is the difference between the left and right. A leftish news organization uses a misleading headline, and there is a brief flurry for a day and then everyone promptly criticizes them for it, and the world moves on. On the right, they manufacture fake issues and then embed them in conspiracy theories and outright propaganda and reinforce them constantly for forever. No it is not the same.

After three years of the left telling itself Fairy tales that trump is a secret Russian agent youíre claiming the left doesnít indulge in conspiracy theories?

Thatís a bold move.
So for shits and grins I Googled "Trump Secret Russian Agent" and only got one hit the first couple of pages. It was actually a very interesting read. Then I googled "Obama birth certificate" and got pages of hits.

There is no question "both sides do it" to some extent. There is also no question the right partakes in far more conspiracy theories in quantity and utter ridiculousness. These conspiracy theories often affect policy, lives, etc. Those are just Trump pushed conspiracy theories. How about this one pushed by the guy he just commuted a prison sentence for?

Thatís because google is liberal and suppressing the articles!

Iím kidding !!! Lol.

Good conspiracy theory joke. :)

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5780
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2926 on: July 17, 2020, 08:48:18 AM »
There is a difference between "Russian asset" and "Russian agent".  It would be difficult to deny at this point that Trump is an asset to the Russians.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5649
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2927 on: July 17, 2020, 09:08:54 AM »
There is a difference between "Russian asset" and "Russian agent".  It would be difficult to deny at this point that Trump is an asset to the Russians.


Exactly this.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2928 on: July 17, 2020, 09:17:11 AM »
There is a difference between "Russian asset" and "Russian agent".  It would be difficult to deny at this point that Trump is an asset to the Russians.

Not hard to find you just have to look.

Here is a sitting US congresswoman claiming just that.

Cool ? Iím done. Do your own digging. She said agent not asset.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepMaxineWaters/status/1084656623723954176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1084656623723954176%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Flasentinel.net%2Fmaxine-waters-drags-donald-trump-down-the-twitter-timeline.html

bacchi

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4990
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2929 on: July 17, 2020, 09:17:35 AM »
There is no question "both sides do it" to some extent. There is also no question the right partakes in far more conspiracy theories in quantity and utter ridiculousness. These conspiracy theories often affect policy, lives, etc. Those are just Trump pushed conspiracy theories. How about this one pushed by the guy he just commuted a prison sentence for?

Roger doesn't know what he's talking about. Covid symptoms are actually from 5G tower radiation.

https://www.vox.com/recode/2020/4/24/21231085/coronavirus-5g-conspiracy-theory-covid-facebook-youtube

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2656
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2930 on: July 17, 2020, 09:29:54 AM »
At this point it is clear that the Trump administration does not prioritize clear truth telling. They systematically use generation of large quantities of bullshit to create an environment in which truth struggles to surface. In that regard they are acting, irrespective of any coordination or lack thereof, with the well-documented Russian disinformation campaigns. While there may not be any overtly coordinated action, the WH (along with Mitch McConnell) have certainly worked to prevent actions that could be taken within the US to blunt Russian efforts.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2931 on: July 17, 2020, 09:45:06 AM »
Not hard to find you just have to look.

Here is a sitting US congresswoman claiming just that.

Cool ? Iím done. Do your own digging. She said agent not asset.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepMaxineWaters/status/1084656623723954176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1084656623723954176%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Flasentinel.net%2Fmaxine-waters-drags-donald-trump-down-the-twitter-timeline.html

No, she's actually claiming that it's irrelevant.

Quote
Is Trump a Russian agent? If it walks like a duck & talks like a duck, then it is a duck - and the duck should be impeached.

But regardless, we're talking about a factual pattern of behavior here that stretches over years. The "conspiracy theory" is merely that Trump is a Russian Agent, instead of just constantly acting like a Russian Agent. Which is a "conspiracy theory" by some loose definition, sure, but it doesn't compare to the completely baseless ones that the right constantly comes up with, which you are attempting to equate in your rush to declare "both sides".

This forum leans left - which is fine. I would hope providing a centrist / conservative viewpoint on some issues would be welcome. But i guess that makes me a troll. I like trolls. My kids love that movie
:)

No, no one is a troll just because they are centrist/conservative. They are trolls (on either side) if they constantly only throw out drive-by trollish one-liners, and never engage in substantive discussion. Which is what I'm saying you do, this being the only actual attempt to engage in discussion I've ever seen you make.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2932 on: July 17, 2020, 10:34:11 AM »
Not hard to find you just have to look.

Here is a sitting US congresswoman claiming just that.

Cool ? Iím done. Do your own digging. She said agent not asset.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepMaxineWaters/status/1084656623723954176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1084656623723954176%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Flasentinel.net%2Fmaxine-waters-drags-donald-trump-down-the-twitter-timeline.html

No, she's actually claiming that it's irrelevant.

Quote
Is Trump a Russian agent? If it walks like a duck & talks like a duck, then it is a duck - and the duck should be impeached.

But regardless, we're talking about a factual pattern of behavior here that stretches over years. The "conspiracy theory" is merely that Trump is a Russian Agent, instead of just constantly acting like a Russian Agent. Which is a "conspiracy theory" by some loose definition, sure, but it doesn't compare to the completely baseless ones that the right constantly comes up with, which you are attempting to equate in your rush to declare "both sides".

This forum leans left - which is fine. I would hope providing a centrist / conservative viewpoint on some issues would be welcome. But i guess that makes me a troll. I like trolls. My kids love that movie
:)

No, no one is a troll just because they are centrist/conservative. They are trolls (on either side) if they constantly only throw out drive-by trollish one-liners, and never engage in substantive discussion. Which is what I'm saying you do, this being the only actual attempt to engage in discussion I've ever seen you make.

I can find more examples of people on the left claiming trump IS a Russian agent. Not sure they would move the conversation forward.

I donít generally like the both sides do it argument either. I tend to think that we should focus on who is in power and hold them accountable. One example where I think the both sides argument rings true is with the filibuster. People got upset when cocaine Mitch blew it up for the Supreme Court nominees but it started with Harry Reid before him. Thatís more pure politics so I Kind of expect it.

I think the Russian agent conspiracy theory seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories lately. Just in the pure time and energy spent on it. It just seemed much larger than others. Thatís just my personal perspective.


former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5780
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2933 on: July 17, 2020, 10:39:53 AM »
Not hard to find you just have to look.

Here is a sitting US congresswoman claiming just that.

Cool ? Iím done. Do your own digging. She said agent not asset.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepMaxineWaters/status/1084656623723954176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1084656623723954176%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Flasentinel.net%2Fmaxine-waters-drags-donald-trump-down-the-twitter-timeline.html

No, she's actually claiming that it's irrelevant.

Quote
Is Trump a Russian agent? If it walks like a duck & talks like a duck, then it is a duck - and the duck should be impeached.

But regardless, we're talking about a factual pattern of behavior here that stretches over years. The "conspiracy theory" is merely that Trump is a Russian Agent, instead of just constantly acting like a Russian Agent. Which is a "conspiracy theory" by some loose definition, sure, but it doesn't compare to the completely baseless ones that the right constantly comes up with, which you are attempting to equate in your rush to declare "both sides".

This forum leans left - which is fine. I would hope providing a centrist / conservative viewpoint on some issues would be welcome. But i guess that makes me a troll. I like trolls. My kids love that movie
:)

No, no one is a troll just because they are centrist/conservative. They are trolls (on either side) if they constantly only throw out drive-by trollish one-liners, and never engage in substantive discussion. Which is what I'm saying you do, this being the only actual attempt to engage in discussion I've ever seen you make.

I can find more examples of people on the left claiming trump IS a Russian agent. Not sure they would move the conversation forward.

I donít generally like the both sides do it argument either. I tend to think that we should focus on who is in power and hold them accountable. One example where I think the both sides argument rings true is with the filibuster. People got upset when cocaine Mitch blew it up for the Supreme Court nominees but it started with Harry Reid before him. Thatís more pure politics so I Kind of expect it.

I think the Russian agent conspiracy theory seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories lately. Just in the pure time and energy spent on it. It just seemed much larger than others. Thatís just my personal perspective.
You keep going on about Trump being a Russian agent being a conspiracy theory.  You haven't been able to deny that Trump is a Russian asset, though.  So going on about him not being an "agent" is just another distraction from the real and undeniable problem which is that the President of the USA has time after time prioritised the interests of Russia over the interests of the USA.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Age: 35
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2934 on: July 17, 2020, 10:45:16 AM »
But regardless, we're talking about a factual pattern of behavior here that stretches over years. The "conspiracy theory" is merely that Trump is a Russian Agent, instead of just constantly acting like a Russian Agent. Which is a "conspiracy theory" by some loose definition, sure, but it doesn't compare to the completely baseless ones that the right constantly comes up with, which you are attempting to equate in your rush to declare "both sides".

I can find more examples of people on the left claiming trump IS a Russian agent. Not sure they would move the conversation forward.

I think the Russian agent conspiracy theory seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories lately. Just in the pure time and energy spent on it. It just seemed much larger than others. Thatís just my personal perspective.

GreenEggs

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1161
  • Location: Here & There
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2935 on: July 17, 2020, 10:48:54 AM »
Are you folks keeping up with what's been happening in Portland, OR?


I wonder why Governor Brown hasn't deployed the National Guard to defend the peaceful protesters against Trump's unmarked army.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2936 on: July 17, 2020, 11:34:52 AM »
Not hard to find you just have to look.

Here is a sitting US congresswoman claiming just that.

Cool ? Iím done. Do your own digging. She said agent not asset.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepMaxineWaters/status/1084656623723954176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1084656623723954176%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Flasentinel.net%2Fmaxine-waters-drags-donald-trump-down-the-twitter-timeline.html

No, she's actually claiming that it's irrelevant.

Quote
Is Trump a Russian agent? If it walks like a duck & talks like a duck, then it is a duck - and the duck should be impeached.

But regardless, we're talking about a factual pattern of behavior here that stretches over years. The "conspiracy theory" is merely that Trump is a Russian Agent, instead of just constantly acting like a Russian Agent. Which is a "conspiracy theory" by some loose definition, sure, but it doesn't compare to the completely baseless ones that the right constantly comes up with, which you are attempting to equate in your rush to declare "both sides".

This forum leans left - which is fine. I would hope providing a centrist / conservative viewpoint on some issues would be welcome. But i guess that makes me a troll. I like trolls. My kids love that movie
:)

No, no one is a troll just because they are centrist/conservative. They are trolls (on either side) if they constantly only throw out drive-by trollish one-liners, and never engage in substantive discussion. Which is what I'm saying you do, this being the only actual attempt to engage in discussion I've ever seen you make.

I can find more examples of people on the left claiming trump IS a Russian agent. Not sure they would move the conversation forward.

I donít generally like the both sides do it argument either. I tend to think that we should focus on who is in power and hold them accountable. One example where I think the both sides argument rings true is with the filibuster. People got upset when cocaine Mitch blew it up for the Supreme Court nominees but it started with Harry Reid before him. Thatís more pure politics so I Kind of expect it.

I think the Russian agent conspiracy theory seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories lately. Just in the pure time and energy spent on it. It just seemed much larger than others. Thatís just my personal perspective.
You keep going on about Trump being a Russian agent being a conspiracy theory.  You haven't been able to deny that Trump is a Russian asset, though.  So going on about him not being an "agent" is just another distraction from the real and undeniable problem which is that the President of the USA has time after time prioritised the interests of Russia over the interests of the USA.

You claim trump is an asset and prioritizing  Russian over the US. OK.

So I would define an asset as someone who helps Russia or goes easy on them? Please provide your definition to help me.

Can I compare trump with Obama in regards to Russia or is that trolling ?


During Obama presidency -

Russia annexed Crimea.
Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.
Russia hacked Clinton

Obama also stopped a missile defensive system for Poland and then Czechs.

Obama also refused to arm Ukraine.

As a casual observer Russia stepped all over Obama.

Ok so what has our current leader done who is a secret agent or at least a Russian asset?


Trump has -

Authorized lethal military aid to Ukraine

Sanctioned Russian oligarchs.

Shuttered Russian consulates ( Obama did this too to his credit )

Expanded the magnitsky act.

The biggest of all in my view trump has allowed the US to be the world leader in energy production. Yes yes we need more green I agree but having US energy dominance hurts Russia.

Ok. So Im asking in good faith what policies has he pushed and passed that have aided Russia ? And why arenít the Obama policies also ones that could be considered coming from an asset ?

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2937 on: July 17, 2020, 11:42:09 AM »
I think the Russian agent conspiracy theory seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories lately. Just in the pure time and energy spent on it. It just seemed much larger than others. Thatís just my personal perspective.
I guess we all truly do prioritize things in odd ways some times. It doesn't even register as blip on my radar as we are in the midst of a world wide pandemic. Folks going on about the "Covid hoax", Bill Gates mind implants, face mask antennas seem far more consequential to the health and well being of all around.

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3882
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2938 on: July 17, 2020, 12:01:18 PM »
Not hard to find you just have to look.

Here is a sitting US congresswoman claiming just that.

Cool ? Iím done. Do your own digging. She said agent not asset.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepMaxineWaters/status/1084656623723954176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1084656623723954176%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Flasentinel.net%2Fmaxine-waters-drags-donald-trump-down-the-twitter-timeline.html

No, she's actually claiming that it's irrelevant.

Quote
Is Trump a Russian agent? If it walks like a duck & talks like a duck, then it is a duck - and the duck should be impeached.

But regardless, we're talking about a factual pattern of behavior here that stretches over years. The "conspiracy theory" is merely that Trump is a Russian Agent, instead of just constantly acting like a Russian Agent. Which is a "conspiracy theory" by some loose definition, sure, but it doesn't compare to the completely baseless ones that the right constantly comes up with, which you are attempting to equate in your rush to declare "both sides".

This forum leans left - which is fine. I would hope providing a centrist / conservative viewpoint on some issues would be welcome. But i guess that makes me a troll. I like trolls. My kids love that movie
:)

No, no one is a troll just because they are centrist/conservative. They are trolls (on either side) if they constantly only throw out drive-by trollish one-liners, and never engage in substantive discussion. Which is what I'm saying you do, this being the only actual attempt to engage in discussion I've ever seen you make.

I can find more examples of people on the left claiming trump IS a Russian agent. Not sure they would move the conversation forward.

I donít generally like the both sides do it argument either. I tend to think that we should focus on who is in power and hold them accountable. One example where I think the both sides argument rings true is with the filibuster. People got upset when cocaine Mitch blew it up for the Supreme Court nominees but it started with Harry Reid before him. Thatís more pure politics so I Kind of expect it.

I think the Russian agent conspiracy theory seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories lately. Just in the pure time and energy spent on it. It just seemed much larger than others. Thatís just my personal perspective.
You keep going on about Trump being a Russian agent being a conspiracy theory.  You haven't been able to deny that Trump is a Russian asset, though.  So going on about him not being an "agent" is just another distraction from the real and undeniable problem which is that the President of the USA has time after time prioritised the interests of Russia over the interests of the USA.


The biggest of all in my view trump has allowed the US to be the world leader in energy production. Yes yes we need more green I agree but having US energy dominance hurts Russia.


Can you tell me what Trump did that made the US the "World Leader in Energy Production"?

If the USs exports of fuels had already started growing before Trump became President, does Trump deserve credit for that?

Lews Therin

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3194
  • Age: 30
  • Location: Gatineau
  • Used to be Canadian Ben
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2939 on: July 17, 2020, 12:07:51 PM »
Can we concentrate on the biggest thing?

COVID is controlled in most Western nations now... and it`s getting worse in the US.

It`s more prevalent now than it was when the US went into the quarantine to avoid the outbreak getting worse.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2940 on: July 17, 2020, 12:42:01 PM »
Not hard to find you just have to look.

Here is a sitting US congresswoman claiming just that.

Cool ? Iím done. Do your own digging. She said agent not asset.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepMaxineWaters/status/1084656623723954176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1084656623723954176%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Flasentinel.net%2Fmaxine-waters-drags-donald-trump-down-the-twitter-timeline.html

No, she's actually claiming that it's irrelevant.

Quote
Is Trump a Russian agent? If it walks like a duck & talks like a duck, then it is a duck - and the duck should be impeached.

But regardless, we're talking about a factual pattern of behavior here that stretches over years. The "conspiracy theory" is merely that Trump is a Russian Agent, instead of just constantly acting like a Russian Agent. Which is a "conspiracy theory" by some loose definition, sure, but it doesn't compare to the completely baseless ones that the right constantly comes up with, which you are attempting to equate in your rush to declare "both sides".

This forum leans left - which is fine. I would hope providing a centrist / conservative viewpoint on some issues would be welcome. But i guess that makes me a troll. I like trolls. My kids love that movie
:)

No, no one is a troll just because they are centrist/conservative. They are trolls (on either side) if they constantly only throw out drive-by trollish one-liners, and never engage in substantive discussion. Which is what I'm saying you do, this being the only actual attempt to engage in discussion I've ever seen you make.

I can find more examples of people on the left claiming trump IS a Russian agent. Not sure they would move the conversation forward.

I donít generally like the both sides do it argument either. I tend to think that we should focus on who is in power and hold them accountable. One example where I think the both sides argument rings true is with the filibuster. People got upset when cocaine Mitch blew it up for the Supreme Court nominees but it started with Harry Reid before him. Thatís more pure politics so I Kind of expect it.

I think the Russian agent conspiracy theory seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories lately. Just in the pure time and energy spent on it. It just seemed much larger than others. Thatís just my personal perspective.
You keep going on about Trump being a Russian agent being a conspiracy theory.  You haven't been able to deny that Trump is a Russian asset, though.  So going on about him not being an "agent" is just another distraction from the real and undeniable problem which is that the President of the USA has time after time prioritised the interests of Russia over the interests of the USA.


The biggest of all in my view trump has allowed the US to be the world leader in energy production. Yes yes we need more green I agree but having US energy dominance hurts Russia.


Can you tell me what Trump did that made the US the "World Leader in Energy Production"?

If the USs exports of fuels had already started growing before Trump became President, does Trump deserve credit for that?

Got the government out of the way. Rolled back a bunch of regulations. Tried to green light some pipelines.

The energy market was growing despite the prior administrations best efforts. Trump just helped to remove some of the uncertainty. Business doesnít like uncertainty. Trump is a mad
Man that creates uncertainty in other ways though.

I shouldnít have to say this but I will - itís a balance. Rolling back some overly burdensome regulations doesnít mean I want poison water or oil spills. Some regulations are good and some arenít.

former player

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5780
  • Location: Avalon
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2941 on: July 17, 2020, 01:00:50 PM »
Not hard to find you just have to look.

Here is a sitting US congresswoman claiming just that.

Cool ? Iím done. Do your own digging. She said agent not asset.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepMaxineWaters/status/1084656623723954176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1084656623723954176%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Flasentinel.net%2Fmaxine-waters-drags-donald-trump-down-the-twitter-timeline.html

No, she's actually claiming that it's irrelevant.

Quote
Is Trump a Russian agent? If it walks like a duck & talks like a duck, then it is a duck - and the duck should be impeached.

But regardless, we're talking about a factual pattern of behavior here that stretches over years. The "conspiracy theory" is merely that Trump is a Russian Agent, instead of just constantly acting like a Russian Agent. Which is a "conspiracy theory" by some loose definition, sure, but it doesn't compare to the completely baseless ones that the right constantly comes up with, which you are attempting to equate in your rush to declare "both sides".

This forum leans left - which is fine. I would hope providing a centrist / conservative viewpoint on some issues would be welcome. But i guess that makes me a troll. I like trolls. My kids love that movie
:)

No, no one is a troll just because they are centrist/conservative. They are trolls (on either side) if they constantly only throw out drive-by trollish one-liners, and never engage in substantive discussion. Which is what I'm saying you do, this being the only actual attempt to engage in discussion I've ever seen you make.

I can find more examples of people on the left claiming trump IS a Russian agent. Not sure they would move the conversation forward.

I donít generally like the both sides do it argument either. I tend to think that we should focus on who is in power and hold them accountable. One example where I think the both sides argument rings true is with the filibuster. People got upset when cocaine Mitch blew it up for the Supreme Court nominees but it started with Harry Reid before him. Thatís more pure politics so I Kind of expect it.

I think the Russian agent conspiracy theory seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories lately. Just in the pure time and energy spent on it. It just seemed much larger than others. Thatís just my personal perspective.
You keep going on about Trump being a Russian agent being a conspiracy theory.  You haven't been able to deny that Trump is a Russian asset, though.  So going on about him not being an "agent" is just another distraction from the real and undeniable problem which is that the President of the USA has time after time prioritised the interests of Russia over the interests of the USA.

You claim trump is an asset and prioritizing  Russian over the US. OK.

So I would define an asset as someone who helps Russia or goes easy on them? Please provide your definition to help me.

Can I compare trump with Obama in regards to Russia or is that trolling ?


During Obama presidency -

Russia annexed Crimea.
Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.
Russia hacked Clinton

Obama also stopped a missile defensive system for Poland and then Czechs.

Obama also refused to arm Ukraine.

As a casual observer Russia stepped all over Obama.

Ok so what has our current leader done who is a secret agent or at least a Russian asset?


Trump has -

Authorized lethal military aid to Ukraine

Sanctioned Russian oligarchs.

Shuttered Russian consulates ( Obama did this too to his credit )

Expanded the magnitsky act.

The biggest of all in my view trump has allowed the US to be the world leader in energy production. Yes yes we need more green I agree but having US energy dominance hurts Russia.

Ok. So Im asking in good faith what policies has he pushed and passed that have aided Russia ? And why arenít the Obama policies also ones that could be considered coming from an asset ?
Obama is just another distraction that you are bringing up to avoid the main point.  And feel free to google what Trump has done for Russia if you've been asleep for the last 4 years.

scottish

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1795
  • Location: Ottawa
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2942 on: July 17, 2020, 03:22:19 PM »
Are you folks keeping up with what's been happening in Portland, OR?


I wonder why Governor Brown hasn't deployed the National Guard to defend the peaceful protesters against Trump's unmarked army.

I'm reading this article & it's unreal. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/

 Since when do federal officers in the US detain citizens without cause, put them in jail overnight and release them?    This is a real sign of looming tyranny.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2943 on: July 17, 2020, 03:29:25 PM »
You claim trump is an asset and prioritizing  Russian over the US. OK.
It's not a claim it's a fact!

Quote
So I would define an asset as someone who helps Russia or goes easy on them? Please provide your definition to help me.
Your definition is irrelevant. I would guess by your comment you didn't bother to read my original post about how Russia could easily view Trump as an asset.   
 
Quote
During Obama presidency -

Russia annexed Crimea.
Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.
Russia hacked Clinton

Obama also stopped a missile defensive system for Poland and then Czechs.

Obama also refused to arm Ukraine.

As a casual observer Russia stepped all over Obama.
Obama and his administration made an effort to "reset" with Russia during the Russian presidential interregnum of Dmitry Medvedev (between 2008-2012). They were hesitant to do anything to escalate tensions. They even managed to hammer out several accomplishment including a nuclear arms deal. Once Putin assumed control again and the annexation of Crimean happened, all that fell by the wayside around 2014. This wasn't about being soft or an asset. This was about de-escalating and trying to essentially start over on a good foot with Russia. But I get it. We do live in a country with people who are so used to waging war at the slightest hint of a threat. How dare a President try a humane approach.     

Quote
The biggest of all in my view trump has allowed the US to be the world leader in energy production. Yes yes we need more green I agree but having US energy dominance hurts Russia.
You are a wee bit off. We surpassed Russia in 2011 in natural gas production and again in 2014 in petroleum and natural gas production combined. Thanks Obama!! I sure hope one day we can become the world leader in clean energy production. Being the world leader in dirty finite energy isn't something to be proud of.  I don't give a rats ass how it makes another world leader feel. Sacrificing the planet for spite seems idiotic.

OtherJen

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3576
  • Location: Metro Detroit
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2944 on: July 17, 2020, 03:31:33 PM »
Are you folks keeping up with what's been happening in Portland, OR?


I wonder why Governor Brown hasn't deployed the National Guard to defend the peaceful protesters against Trump's unmarked army.

I'm reading this article & it's unreal. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/17/portland-protests-federal-arrests/

 Since when do federal officers in the US detain citizens without cause, put them in jail overnight and release them?    This is a real sign of looming tyranny.

We allowed our constitution to be shat upon and our country to be destroyed.

Tyler durden

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2945 on: July 17, 2020, 04:42:34 PM »
You claim trump is an asset and prioritizing  Russian over the US. OK.
It's not a claim it's a fact!

Quote
So I would define an asset as someone who helps Russia or goes easy on them? Please provide your definition to help me.
Your definition is irrelevant. I would guess by your comment you didn't bother to read my original post about how Russia could easily view Trump as an asset.   
 
Quote
During Obama presidency -

Russia annexed Crimea.
Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.
Russia hacked Clinton

Obama also stopped a missile defensive system for Poland and then Czechs.

Obama also refused to arm Ukraine.

As a casual observer Russia stepped all over Obama.
Obama and his administration made an effort to "reset" with Russia during the Russian presidential interregnum of Dmitry Medvedev (between 2008-2012). They were hesitant to do anything to escalate tensions. They even managed to hammer out several accomplishment including a nuclear arms deal. Once Putin assumed control again and the annexation of Crimean happened, all that fell by the wayside around 2014. This wasn't about being soft or an asset. This was about de-escalating and trying to essentially start over on a good foot with Russia. But I get it. We do live in a country with people who are so used to waging war at the slightest hint of a threat. How dare a President try a humane approach.     

Quote
The biggest of all in my view trump has allowed the US to be the world leader in energy production. Yes yes we need more green I agree but having US energy dominance hurts Russia.
You are a wee bit off. We surpassed Russia in 2011 in natural gas production and again in 2014 in petroleum and natural gas production combined. Thanks Obama!! I sure hope one day we can become the world leader in clean energy production. Being the world leader in dirty finite energy isn't something to be proud of.  I don't give a rats ass how it makes another world leader feel. Sacrificing the planet for spite seems idiotic.

Well we became the largest oil producer in 2018. Itís not relevant when we surpassed Russia. Thatís not what I said.

I donít think the fact that Obama was a limp wrist sissy and let Putin stomp all over him and humiliate him by annexing Crimea and Obama had nothing but harsh words makes Obama a Russian asset. Thatís just his style of leading from behind.

Not sure how you can square the much harsher actions trump has taken like arming Ukraine which Russia desperately didnít want and have that all equal trump = asset.

Actions speak louder than words. Unless you think trump is only doing just enough harm to Russia that it gives him cover to still be there asset?!?

Your facts that

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2656
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2946 on: July 17, 2020, 05:45:47 PM »
Well we became the largest oil producer in 2018. Itís not relevant when we surpassed Russia. Thatís not what I said.

I donít think the fact that Obama was a limp wrist sissy and let Putin stomp all over him and humiliate him by annexing Crimea and Obama had nothing but harsh words makes Obama a Russian asset. Thatís just his style of leading from behind.

Not sure how you can square the much harsher actions trump has taken like arming Ukraine which Russia desperately didnít want and have that all equal trump = asset.

Actions speak louder than words. Unless you think trump is only doing just enough harm to Russia that it gives him cover to still be there asset?!?

Your facts that

Let's not forget our history here. In response to annexation and aggression, Obama and European allies all passed versions of the Magnitsky Act. This act specifically targets officials and oligarchs in Russia... aka targets those who wield power and enforce authoritarian ways (collusion between govt and business is 'sistema' in Russia). These sanctions have been very effective and make the higher ups in Russia pretty unhappy. Remember that infamous 2016 meeting between Russian officials and the Trump campaign in Trump Tower? The discussion of 'adoption'? Well, that was shorthand for the sanctions under the Magnitsky act. Remember Flynn lying to the FBI about talking to the Russians? What was that about? Oh, sanctions, of course. Oh an remmber when Trump, in 2017, did finally sign the sanctions bill against Russia... but with the caveat that he thought it was probably unconstitutional and maybe wouldn't bother enforcing it. Remember when Trump stood side by side with Putin in front of the world and literally said that Putin told him Russia didn't do it, and he thought he believed him, so all was okay (despite abundant evidence from all intel agencies to the contrary)? Or remember when Trump withheld hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid to Ukraine in order to get them to investigate Hunter Biden for personal political gain?

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2947 on: July 17, 2020, 07:13:05 PM »
You claim trump is an asset and prioritizing  Russian over the US. OK.
It's not a claim it's a fact!

Quote
So I would define an asset as someone who helps Russia or goes easy on them? Please provide your definition to help me.
Your definition is irrelevant. I would guess by your comment you didn't bother to read my original post about how Russia could easily view Trump as an asset.   
 
Quote
During Obama presidency -

Russia annexed Crimea.
Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.
Russia hacked Clinton

Obama also stopped a missile defensive system for Poland and then Czechs.

Obama also refused to arm Ukraine.

As a casual observer Russia stepped all over Obama.
Obama and his administration made an effort to "reset" with Russia during the Russian presidential interregnum of Dmitry Medvedev (between 2008-2012). They were hesitant to do anything to escalate tensions. They even managed to hammer out several accomplishment including a nuclear arms deal. Once Putin assumed control again and the annexation of Crimean happened, all that fell by the wayside around 2014. This wasn't about being soft or an asset. This was about de-escalating and trying to essentially start over on a good foot with Russia. But I get it. We do live in a country with people who are so used to waging war at the slightest hint of a threat. How dare a President try a humane approach.     

Quote
The biggest of all in my view trump has allowed the US to be the world leader in energy production. Yes yes we need more green I agree but having US energy dominance hurts Russia.
You are a wee bit off. We surpassed Russia in 2011 in natural gas production and again in 2014 in petroleum and natural gas production combined. Thanks Obama!! I sure hope one day we can become the world leader in clean energy production. Being the world leader in dirty finite energy isn't something to be proud of.  I don't give a rats ass how it makes another world leader feel. Sacrificing the planet for spite seems idiotic.

Well we became the largest oil producer in 2018. Itís not relevant when we surpassed Russia. Thatís not what I said.

I donít think the fact that Obama was a limp wrist sissy and let Putin stomp all over him and humiliate him by annexing Crimea and Obama had nothing but harsh words makes Obama a Russian asset. Thatís just his style of leading from behind.

Not sure how you can square the much harsher actions trump has taken like arming Ukraine which Russia desperately didnít want and have that all equal trump = asset.

Actions speak louder than words. Unless you think trump is only doing just enough harm to Russia that it gives him cover to still be there asset?!?

Your facts that
You just used a contemptuous term for a homosexual in reference to Obama. Too bad you couldn't keep it civil. I should have heeded @sherr when she pointed out the trolling.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 07:18:37 PM by MasterStache »

Norioch

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2948 on: July 17, 2020, 08:24:36 PM »
White House blocks CDC from testifying on reopening schools next week

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/17/politics/white-house-cdc-house-testimony-schools/index.html

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5649
Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #2949 on: July 17, 2020, 08:44:20 PM »
You claim trump is an asset and prioritizing  Russian over the US. OK.
It's not a claim it's a fact!

Quote
So I would define an asset as someone who helps Russia or goes easy on them? Please provide your definition to help me.
Your definition is irrelevant. I would guess by your comment you didn't bother to read my original post about how Russia could easily view Trump as an asset.   
 
Quote
During Obama presidency -

Russia annexed Crimea.
Russia invaded eastern Ukraine.
Russia hacked Clinton

Obama also stopped a missile defensive system for Poland and then Czechs.

Obama also refused to arm Ukraine.

As a casual observer Russia stepped all over Obama.
Obama and his administration made an effort to "reset" with Russia during the Russian presidential interregnum of Dmitry Medvedev (between 2008-2012). They were hesitant to do anything to escalate tensions. They even managed to hammer out several accomplishment including a nuclear arms deal. Once Putin assumed control again and the annexation of Crimean happened, all that fell by the wayside around 2014. This wasn't about being soft or an asset. This was about de-escalating and trying to essentially start over on a good foot with Russia. But I get it. We do live in a country with people who are so used to waging war at the slightest hint of a threat. How dare a President try a humane approach.     

Quote
The biggest of all in my view trump has allowed the US to be the world leader in energy production. Yes yes we need more green I agree but having US energy dominance hurts Russia.
You are a wee bit off. We surpassed Russia in 2011 in natural gas production and again in 2014 in petroleum and natural gas production combined. Thanks Obama!! I sure hope one day we can become the world leader in clean energy production. Being the world leader in dirty finite energy isn't something to be proud of.  I don't give a rats ass how it makes another world leader feel. Sacrificing the planet for spite seems idiotic.

Well we became the largest oil producer in 2018. Itís not relevant when we surpassed Russia. Thatís not what I said.

I donít think the fact that Obama was a limp wrist sissy and let Putin stomp all over him and humiliate him by annexing Crimea and Obama had nothing but harsh words makes Obama a Russian asset. Thatís just his style of leading from behind.

Not sure how you can square the much harsher actions trump has taken like arming Ukraine which Russia desperately didnít want and have that all equal trump = asset.

Actions speak louder than words. Unless you think trump is only doing just enough harm to Russia that it gives him cover to still be there asset?!?

Your facts that
You just used a contemptuous term for a homosexual in reference to Obama. Too bad you couldn't keep it civil. I should have heeded @sherr when she pointed out the trolling.

I mean, youíre not surprised heís a homophobe... right?