Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 189356 times)

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1750 on: April 29, 2020, 02:53:11 PM »
Not to worry.   The Americans have learned not to invade countries in southeast Asia, let alone a country the size of China.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1751 on: April 29, 2020, 02:59:12 PM »
Not to worry.   The Americans have learned not to invade countries in southeast Asia, let alone a country the size of China.
You are presuming we’ve learned from previous foreign policy doctrines. I’m not certain that faith in us is warranted.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1752 on: April 29, 2020, 05:49:28 PM »
Not to worry.   The Americans have learned not to invade countries in southeast Asia, let alone a country the size of China.

Yeah, the USA taking on China would be a sight to see, in a blink and you miss the end of the USA kind of way. They'd get a short, sharp, shock.

What a pity they haven't just learned not to invade countries........? It's the arrogance that gets me furious. The whole imposing of their ideals on the rest of the planet, when they're pretending it isn't just about controlling resources. And assuming that someone else stepping into a power vacuum would not actually be a bloody good thing. With a bit of luck, the walking idiocy that is Trump has alienated enough countries that there will be a collective decision to leave the USA out of any decision making processes from now on. Plus, they'll be busy picking up the pieces of their fabulous domestic policies for quite sometime, methinks.

Lews Therin

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1753 on: April 29, 2020, 05:55:45 PM »
Not to worry.   The Americans have learned not to invade countries in southeast Asia, let alone a country the size of China.

Yeah, the USA taking on China would be a sight to see, in a blink and you miss the end of the USA kind of way. They'd get a short, sharp, shock.

What a pity they haven't just learned not to invade countries........? It's the arrogance that gets me furious. The whole imposing of their ideals on the rest of the planet, when they're pretending it isn't just about controlling resources. And assuming that someone else stepping into a power vacuum would not actually be a bloody good thing. With a bit of luck, the walking idiocy that is Trump has alienated enough countries that there will be a collective decision to leave the USA out of any decision making processes from now on. Plus, they'll be busy picking up the pieces of their fabulous domestic policies for quite sometime, methinks.

Sadly, China is not a better choice. The comments from previous posters on their initiatives.... (Like the belt and road project) is a way for them to make more money off other countries, the same way the US does. But at least the US has some internal checks, the People`s party... does not have that check. They can and do what they will. Reduces productivity but is exceptionally good at controlling large groups of people until the system breaks down.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1754 on: April 30, 2020, 08:05:32 AM »
Not to worry.   The Americans have learned not to invade countries in southeast Asia, let alone a country the size of China.

Yeah, the USA taking on China would be a sight to see, in a blink and you miss the end of the USA kind of way. They'd get a short, sharp, shock.

What a pity they haven't just learned not to invade countries........? It's the arrogance that gets me furious. The whole imposing of their ideals on the rest of the planet, when they're pretending it isn't just about controlling resources. And assuming that someone else stepping into a power vacuum would not actually be a bloody good thing. With a bit of luck, the walking idiocy that is Trump has alienated enough countries that there will be a collective decision to leave the USA out of any decision making processes from now on. Plus, they'll be busy picking up the pieces of their fabulous domestic policies for quite sometime, methinks.

Speaking for myself, I'm not assuming that it wouldn't be a good thing (how would I know that either way?), but you seem (inferring here) to be assuming it would be a good thing. I get it. America's screwed up royally in many different ways. You're extremely angry with America/seem to borderline hate America as a concept/government/whatever. However, given your apparent infatuation with China, you'd have to be extremely blinded by your biases to make the assumption that them taking over would be so much better than America given their issues...

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1755 on: April 30, 2020, 08:19:33 AM »
Speaking for myself, I'm not assuming that it wouldn't be a good thing (how would I know that either way?), but you seem (inferring here) to be assuming it would be a good thing. I get it. America's screwed up royally in many different ways. You're extremely angry with America/seem to borderline hate America as a concept/government/whatever. However, given your apparent infatuation with China, you'd have to be extremely blinded by your biases to make the assumption that them taking over would be so much better than America given their issues...
Why? For me that looks like a close call.
You basically get less wars and less shouting for more indirect pressure and danger if you open your mouth.
It's not that I would see the Chinese are better Imperials, if they ever muster the actual will to it (historically they haven't). It is more a question of style. And at least at the moment there is no question who has the worse style...

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1756 on: April 30, 2020, 08:21:17 AM »
Given the size of both militaries, population, and economies I can’t see how an all out conflict between the two would be anything but an extended, bloody and expansive affair. As a pacifist I hope we never see such a conflict, regardless of who the victor might be.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1757 on: April 30, 2020, 09:07:41 AM »
Speaking for myself, I'm not assuming that it wouldn't be a good thing (how would I know that either way?), but you seem (inferring here) to be assuming it would be a good thing. I get it. America's screwed up royally in many different ways. You're extremely angry with America/seem to borderline hate America as a concept/government/whatever. However, given your apparent infatuation with China, you'd have to be extremely blinded by your biases to make the assumption that them taking over would be so much better than America given their issues...
Why? For me that looks like a close call.
You basically get less wars and less shouting for more indirect pressure and danger if you open your mouth.
It's not that I would see the Chinese are better Imperials, if they ever muster the actual will to it (historically they haven't). It is more a question of style. And at least at the moment there is no question who has the worse style...

You seem to be questioning my post in your first statement, but I don't see how your post disagrees with mine. I literally said that I'm not making the assumption that it wouldn't be better for America to lose it, but that I felt that she was making the assumption that it would be better. America has some serious issues, certainly. China does as well. By definition, an assumption that one would be better would be to declare that it's obvious that one has less issues/would rule in a much better way than the other one.

Anna commented earlier that she gets frustrated at what she thinks is American arrogance (although I haven't seen a whole lot of it in this last part of the thread – more her misrepresenting posts of people who are not declaring the US influence in the world is a good thing). What I get frustrated with is when people gripe and gripe and gripe about the US and do it while holding them up to some mythical standard of perfection, and this is a perfect example of this. She seems infatuated with China, but news flash, they have quite a bit of issues themselves. It's extremely disingenuous to argue against America as if they've done such a poor job in comparison, when no government has done a great job, and the ones that have had more power and control have done poorer jobs as their power increased. Let's be realistic here if we're going to talk about things.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1758 on: April 30, 2020, 09:30:55 AM »
Speaking for myself, I'm not assuming that it wouldn't be a good thing (how would I know that either way?), but you seem (inferring here) to be assuming it would be a good thing. I get it. America's screwed up royally in many different ways. You're extremely angry with America/seem to borderline hate America as a concept/government/whatever. However, given your apparent infatuation with China, you'd have to be extremely blinded by your biases to make the assumption that them taking over would be so much better than America given their issues...
Why? For me that looks like a close call.
You basically get less wars and less shouting for more indirect pressure and danger if you open your mouth.
It's not that I would see the Chinese are better Imperials, if they ever muster the actual will to it (historically they haven't). It is more a question of style. And at least at the moment there is no question who has the worse style...

You seem to be questioning my post in your first statement, but I don't see how your post disagrees with mine. I literally said that I'm not making the assumption that it wouldn't be better for America to lose it, but that I felt that she was making the assumption that it would be better. America has some serious issues, certainly. China does as well. By definition, an assumption that one would be better would be to declare that it's obvious that one has less issues/would rule in a much better way than the other one.

Anna commented earlier that she gets frustrated at what she thinks is American arrogance (although I haven't seen a whole lot of it in this last part of the thread – more her misrepresenting posts of people who are not declaring the US influence in the world is a good thing). What I get frustrated with is when people gripe and gripe and gripe about the US and do it while holding them up to some mythical standard of perfection, and this is a perfect example of this. She seems infatuated with China, but news flash, they have quite a bit of issues themselves. It's extremely disingenuous to argue against America as if they've done such a poor job in comparison, when no government has done a great job, and the ones that have had more power and control have done poorer jobs as their power increased. Let's be realistic here if we're going to talk about things.

Yes. Our federal government is clearly shit. I don't see any evidence that China's federal government is not also shit. It's just a different variety of shit. Power corrupts, as those in power begin to act solely to keep that power.

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1759 on: April 30, 2020, 09:34:32 AM »
I'm canadian but I do think that America has overwhelmingly been a force for peace globally post WW2 and the stats bear that out. Yes there have been mistakes made but the world has never been this peaceful with so few combat deaths and a lot of that is because of the military power that America exerts. Of course there's other factors like mutually assured destruction, more intertwined economies, etc. Could someone like the Chinese be better? Possibly, but they could also be far worse. It's not like they don't have their own biases and issues (ex: Uyghur re-education camps) and they have far fewer checks in their government.

I don't think too many people were hoping for the downfall of the US and the rise of China as the leading global power under Obama. As far as that might be a "thing" I think most of it is a relatively short term response to Trump. 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1760 on: April 30, 2020, 09:46:00 AM »
I'm canadian but I do think that America has overwhelmingly been a force for peace globally post WW2 and the stats bear that out. Yes there have been mistakes made but the world has never been this peaceful with so few combat deaths and a lot of that is because of the military power that America exerts. Of course there's other factors like mutually assured destruction, more intertwined economies, etc. Could someone like the Chinese be better? Possibly, but they could also be far worse. It's not like they don't have their own biases and issues (ex: Uyghur re-education camps) and they have far fewer checks in their government.

I don't think too many people were hoping for the downfall of the US and the rise of China as the leading global power under Obama. As far as that might be a "thing" I think most of it is a relatively short term response to Trump.
America's been a force for peace if you are white.  Not so much for anyone else.

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1761 on: April 30, 2020, 09:52:50 AM »
I'm canadian but I do think that America has overwhelmingly been a force for peace globally post WW2 and the stats bear that out. Yes there have been mistakes made but the world has never been this peaceful with so few combat deaths and a lot of that is because of the military power that America exerts. Of course there's other factors like mutually assured destruction, more intertwined economies, etc. Could someone like the Chinese be better? Possibly, but they could also be far worse. It's not like they don't have their own biases and issues (ex: Uyghur re-education camps) and they have far fewer checks in their government.

I don't think too many people were hoping for the downfall of the US and the rise of China as the leading global power under Obama. As far as that might be a "thing" I think most of it is a relatively short term response to Trump.
America's been a force for peace if you are white.  Not so much for anyone else.

Please provide data. Because the data I see looks like it's down across the board except for the middle east, which is comparable to other ME conflicts over the last century.

https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace

The US has stopped large global conflicts since WW2. I don't know how anyone could argue that is not a good thing.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 09:55:28 AM by sixwings »

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1762 on: April 30, 2020, 10:20:39 AM »
I'm canadian but I do think that America has overwhelmingly been a force for peace globally post WW2 and the stats bear that out. Yes there have been mistakes made but the world has never been this peaceful with so few combat deaths and a lot of that is because of the military power that America exerts. Of course there's other factors like mutually assured destruction, more intertwined economies, etc. Could someone like the Chinese be better? Possibly, but they could also be far worse. It's not like they don't have their own biases and issues (ex: Uyghur re-education camps) and they have far fewer checks in their government.

I don't think too many people were hoping for the downfall of the US and the rise of China as the leading global power under Obama. As far as that might be a "thing" I think most of it is a relatively short term response to Trump.
America's been a force for peace if you are white.  Not so much for anyone else.

Please provide data. Because the data I see looks like it's down across the board except for the middle east, which is comparable to other ME conflicts over the last century.

https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace

The US has stopped large global conflicts since WW2. I don't know how anyone could argue that is not a good thing.
Large global conflicts (we've had two hot ones) were mainly among white people.  QED.

And the USA then just displaced its (cold) war with the USSR into hot wars and violent political interference in non-white parts of the world.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1763 on: April 30, 2020, 10:33:17 AM »
I'm canadian but I do think that America has overwhelmingly been a force for peace globally post WW2 and the stats bear that out.

Hmm.  I agree that the world has been getting more peaceful.  Jury's out on whether or not that has anything to do with America's involvement on the world stage.  The US has done an awful lot of bad that doesn't seem to get as much press as it should here in North America.



1990s
- In a bid to kill Pablo Escobar DEA backed and supported Los Pepes, the group of people who founded the AUC and were responsible for 75% of the violent civilian deaths in Colombia over the 10 years following
- The CIA overthrew democratically elected President Aristide in cuba by training and using FRAPH

1980s
- the US destabilized the socialist government of Afghanistan and trained/installed various Taliban warlords in power.  Didn't work out too well long term for the US.
- the CIA trained, armed, and supervised El Salvadore government forces responsible for more than 66,000 civilian deaths in El Salvadore

1970s
- the US (led by Kissinger's recomendation) approved and supported the military junta responsible for the murders of 30,000 in Argentina
- overthrew democratically elected president Salvador Allende in Chile to institute General Pinochet . . . another brutal dictator.

1960s
- the US backed General Castelo Branco, installing him as a pretty brutal dictator in Brazil for more than 20 years in place of elected President Joao Goulart
- Nixon order a secret and illegal bombing of Cambodia, killing 500,000 Cambodians.  This action ended up causing a lot of Cambodian support for the Khmer Rouge.
- Backed and supported the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese army in Cambodia - laying millions of land mines across Cambodia
- Supported the Batista dictatorship (responsible for more than 20,000 civilian deaths) in Cuba . . . followed by years of CIA supported terrorism and assassinations in the country after Castro came to power
- Overthrew elected president of Ghana, Kwame Nkrumah

1950s
- Overthrew elected liberal government of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala, arming and training an army and directly causing 40 years of civil war - resulting in 200,000 civilian casualties
- Overthrew the popular democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran, to implement the Shah as a pretty brutal dictator
- CIA hired Saddam Hussain to assassinate the president of Iraq.  When he screwed that up, they paid him  and an intelligence officer, then later assassinated the leader and helped him take power over Iraq.

1940s
- the US recruited Minister Xhafer Deva (one of the Nazis responsible for deporting people to Auschwitz) in an attempt to overthrow the government of Albania
- instituted Syngman Rhee as dictator in South Korea, who ended up being responsible for 100,000 deaths and helping to bring about the Korean War.





I mean, this list goes on and on.  Haven't mentioned Laos, Myanmar, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Panama, Syria, Zaire . . .




Yes there have been mistakes made but the world has never been this peaceful with so few combat deaths and a lot of that is because of the military power that America exerts. Of course there's other factors like mutually assured destruction, more intertwined economies, etc. Could someone like the Chinese be better? Possibly, but they could also be far worse. It's not like they don't have their own biases and issues (ex: Uyghur re-education camps) and they have far fewer checks in their government.

I don't think too many people were hoping for the downfall of the US and the rise of China as the leading global power under Obama. As far as that might be a "thing" I think most of it is a relatively short term response to Trump.

Don't get me wrong . . . China is certainly no better.  But given history, it's difficult for me to really see the US as a force for world peace.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1764 on: April 30, 2020, 10:50:56 AM »
We’ve gotten very far off topic (in this OT thread).
Moving along...
On March 6th Trump claimed that “anyone”who wanted a corona virus test could get one.  Today Fauci stated that testing still was woefully behind Where we need it to be.  Fifty Days Later.

ECho’s of “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor!” (If you want a test, you can get a test!)

sixwings

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1765 on: April 30, 2020, 11:30:10 AM »
I'm canadian but I do think that America has overwhelmingly been a force for peace globally post WW2 and the stats bear that out.

Hmm.  I agree that the world has been getting more peaceful.  Jury's out on whether or not that has anything to do with America's involvement on the world stage.  The US has done an awful lot of bad that doesn't seem to get as much press as it should here in North America.



1990s
- In a bid to kill Pablo Escobar DEA backed and supported Los Pepes, the group of people who founded the AUC and were responsible for 75% of the violent civilian deaths in Colombia over the 10 years following
- The CIA overthrew democratically elected President Aristide in cuba by training and using FRAPH

1980s
- the US destabilized the socialist government of Afghanistan and trained/installed various Taliban warlords in power.  Didn't work out too well long term for the US.
- the CIA trained, armed, and supervised El Salvadore government forces responsible for more than 66,000 civilian deaths in El Salvadore

1970s
- the US (led by Kissinger's recomendation) approved and supported the military junta responsible for the murders of 30,000 in Argentina
- overthrew democratically elected president Salvador Allende in Chile to institute General Pinochet . . . another brutal dictator.

1960s
- the US backed General Castelo Branco, installing him as a pretty brutal dictator in Brazil for more than 20 years in place of elected President Joao Goulart
- Nixon order a secret and illegal bombing of Cambodia, killing 500,000 Cambodians.  This action ended up causing a lot of Cambodian support for the Khmer Rouge.
- Backed and supported the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese army in Cambodia - laying millions of land mines across Cambodia
- Supported the Batista dictatorship (responsible for more than 20,000 civilian deaths) in Cuba . . . followed by years of CIA supported terrorism and assassinations in the country after Castro came to power
- Overthrew elected president of Ghana, Kwame Nkrumah

1950s
- Overthrew elected liberal government of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala, arming and training an army and directly causing 40 years of civil war - resulting in 200,000 civilian casualties
- Overthrew the popular democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran, to implement the Shah as a pretty brutal dictator
- CIA hired Saddam Hussain to assassinate the president of Iraq.  When he screwed that up, they paid him  and an intelligence officer, then later assassinated the leader and helped him take power over Iraq.

1940s
- the US recruited Minister Xhafer Deva (one of the Nazis responsible for deporting people to Auschwitz) in an attempt to overthrow the government of Albania
- instituted Syngman Rhee as dictator in South Korea, who ended up being responsible for 100,000 deaths and helping to bring about the Korean War.





I mean, this list goes on and on.  Haven't mentioned Laos, Myanmar, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Panama, Syria, Zaire . . .




Yes there have been mistakes made but the world has never been this peaceful with so few combat deaths and a lot of that is because of the military power that America exerts. Of course there's other factors like mutually assured destruction, more intertwined economies, etc. Could someone like the Chinese be better? Possibly, but they could also be far worse. It's not like they don't have their own biases and issues (ex: Uyghur re-education camps) and they have far fewer checks in their government.

I don't think too many people were hoping for the downfall of the US and the rise of China as the leading global power under Obama. As far as that might be a "thing" I think most of it is a relatively short term response to Trump.

Don't get me wrong . . . China is certainly no better.  But given history, it's difficult for me to really see the US as a force for world peace.

This will be my last post on this topic, but from my perspective those are all relatively regional conflicts and political meddling. There's always going to be regional conflicts, in some cases the US handled them well and in some they handled them poorly and some they ignored. But what has not happened are major global armed conflicts. We haven't had one in a generation and that has never happened before and that is because the USA plays a big part in stopping it from happening. For example Russia and Europe aren't going to go to war because the USA will join Europe and Russia would be crushed so they are limited to just kind of fraying some edges and cyber attacks. And again the statistics demonstrate it. Don't know if China would be better, probably not, they would probably handle some regional conflicts well, others not, they would just choose different conflicts based on their own politics and maybe they wouldnt be able to stop major conflicts, maybe they would encourage it.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1766 on: April 30, 2020, 11:47:19 AM »
We’ve gotten very far off topic (in this OT thread).
Moving along...
On March 6th Trump claimed that “anyone”who wanted a corona virus test could get one.  Today Fauci stated that testing still was woefully behind Where we need it to be.  Fifty Days Later.

ECho’s of “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor!” (If you want a test, you can get a test!)

Unfortunately for the Democrat's chances this fall, Trump stopped his press briefings. They're the gift that keeps on giving.

As a nation, it's fortunate that he stopped his press briefings. His spewing of false information was dangerous.


This article missed the mark: https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-media-coronavirus-press-briefings

Quote from: foxnews
Success of Trump's daily coronavirus briefings has media changing tune, critics say

They were sooo successful that Trump was urged to cancel them by his campaign managers.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 12:03:24 PM by bacchi »

dandarc

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1767 on: April 30, 2020, 11:53:34 AM »
@bacchi - "They were sooo successful that Trump was urged to cancel them." - be sure to add "by his campaign managers". The people who's only job is to get him re-elected. And apparently Trump is not happy with said managers. Today's electoral-vote.com post.

That's why he changed course - they finally convinced him it was hurting his re-election chances. Poll came out showing Biden with a 1 point lead in Texas. Apparently the internal republican polling is also showing things are looking pretty bad for the Donald.

If the election were held today, it seems very unlikely Trump would win, but of course there's still a lot of time until November.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1768 on: April 30, 2020, 12:03:05 PM »
@bacchi - "They were sooo successful that Trump was urged to cancel them." - be sure to add "by his campaign managers". The people who's only job is to get him re-elected. And apparently Trump is not happy with said managers. Today's electoral-vote.com post.

That's why he changed course - they finally convinced him it was hurting his re-election chances. Poll came out showing Biden with a 1 point lead in Texas. Apparently the internal republican polling is also showing things are looking pretty bad for the Donald.

If the election were held today, it seems very unlikely Trump would win, but of course there's still a lot of time until November.

Yes, thank you. Fixed. Trump at first thought his low polling was due to his lack of travel and no rallies.

Internal polls are usually optimistic. If the GOP internal polls are showing him trailing in Texas, that's really bad.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1769 on: April 30, 2020, 12:03:28 PM »
We’ve gotten very far off topic (in this OT thread).
Moving along...
On March 6th Trump claimed that “anyone”who wanted a corona virus test could get one.  Today Fauci stated that testing still was woefully behind Where we need it to be.  Fifty Days Later.

ECho’s of “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor!” (If you want a test, you can get a test!)

Unfortunately for the Democrat's chances this fall, Trump stopped his press briefings. They're the gift that keeps on giving.

As a nation, it's fortunate that he stopped his press briefings. His spewing of false information was dangerous.


This article missed the mark: https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-media-coronavirus-press-briefings

Quote from: foxnews
Success of Trump's daily coronavirus briefings has media changing tune, critics say

They were sooo successful that Trump was urged to cancel them.

Trump isn’t one to kick back and sit still.  His tweet-storm over the weekend was just a minor pressure-release.  If his staff keeps him from doing those 2-hour coronavirus “briefings” (which - let’s face it - basically filled the niche of a campaign rally to Trump), then he’s going to find another path.  Maybe that’s calling into Fox and Friends more regularly.  Maybe more tweet-storms.  Maybe something he hasn’t done before. 
But if there’s been one constant these last 3.5 years; anytime Trump can’t command the spotlight he does something outrageous to bring the news-cycle back on him.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1770 on: April 30, 2020, 12:04:06 PM »
Trump's apparently agitating to start having campaign rallies again.  If they aren't as packed as he expects, I anticipate he will not stick to the current 'no press briefings' rule for long.  He's too desperate for attention...he won't be able to stop himself, even if it hurts his poll numbers.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1771 on: April 30, 2020, 12:09:46 PM »
Trump's apparently agitating to start having campaign rallies again.  If they aren't as packed as he expects, I anticipate he will not stick to the current 'no press briefings' rule for long.  He's too desperate for attention...he won't be able to stop himself, even if it hurts his poll numbers.

Sadly, I agree — but I worry who/what else it might hurt.

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1772 on: April 30, 2020, 12:34:18 PM »

You seem to be questioning my post in your first statement, but I don't see how your post disagrees with mine.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

Quote
What I get frustrated with is when people gripe and gripe and gripe about the US and do it while holding them up to some mythical standard of perfection
That's likely because the US has always boldly and often proclaimed that they do indeed act upon this standard.

Quote
But what has not happened are major global armed conflicts. We haven't had one in a generation
Well, yes, because of the USSR/Russia and China having Atomic Bombs.

Quote
For example Russia and Europe aren't going to go to war because the USA will join Europe and Russia would be crushed
Historically it has been mostly Russia who had been attacked.

Quote
Don't know if China would be better, probably not, they would probably handle some regional conflicts well, others not,
And here I have again to throw in a fundameltal difference.
The US, if there is a conflict, bombs.
China, if there is a conflict, pressures economically and diplomatically.
The best general is the one who wins before the fight ;)


Back to the topic:

I didn't read ONE thing today about that Trump that is enraging! I mean stupid, yes, but enraging, no!!!

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1773 on: April 30, 2020, 12:44:34 PM »
Trump's apparently agitating to start having campaign rallies again.  If they aren't as packed as he expects, I anticipate he will not stick to the current 'no press briefings' rule for long.  He's too desperate for attention...he won't be able to stop himself, even if it hurts his poll numbers.

Hopefully no cities are dumb enough to allow a Trump rally. El Paso, TX is considering suing the Trump campaign to pay up the half-million-dollar outstanding bill from his rally more than a year ago. https://www.texastribune.org/2020/04/21/president-trumps-campaign-could-be-sued-over-unpaid-500000-el-paso-tab/

Also from the article:
Quote
Thirteen other cities are also waiting on repayment from the Trump campaign, the Center for Public Integrity reported last week. The total the campaign owes is more than $1.82 million, including about $543,000 to Minneapolis officials, and about $211,000 to the city of Albuquerque, the CPI reported.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1774 on: April 30, 2020, 12:46:51 PM »
Classic Trump move - you make more money if you don't pay your bills.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1775 on: April 30, 2020, 01:03:13 PM »

You seem to be questioning my post in your first statement, but I don't see how your post disagrees with mine.

Sorry if I misunderstood.

Quote
What I get frustrated with is when people gripe and gripe and gripe about the US and do it while holding them up to some mythical standard of perfection
That's likely because the US has always boldly and often proclaimed that they do indeed act upon this standard.

Quote
But what has not happened are major global armed conflicts. We haven't had one in a generation
Well, yes, because of the USSR/Russia and China having Atomic Bombs.

Quote
For example Russia and Europe aren't going to go to war because the USA will join Europe and Russia would be crushed


Back to the topic:

I didn't read ONE thing today about that Trump that is enraging! I mean stupid, yes, but enraging, no!!!

I'm outraged when Trump does or says things that provoke it. I'm also enraged when he fails to produce evidence that he's as bad as I've already determined him to be. It's a very complicated relationship

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1776 on: April 30, 2020, 06:25:54 PM »
More news out about arguments with his campaign manager.

You know, whatever else you think about him, old Drumpf does not seem to be good at evoking loyalty from those around him. He can't take a piss without it becoming a leak.

:p

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1777 on: May 01, 2020, 01:34:53 AM »
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/30/politics/trump-intelligence-community-china-coronavirus-origins/index.html
 
Trump is positive that the virus was manufactured in a lab in Wuhan, and that should make it conveniently true right?  This is no longer about his inept response to having all the intelligence, warnings, and training to fight it (and completely failing).  This is about being ATTACKED!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1778 on: May 01, 2020, 05:47:14 AM »
I'm canadian but I do think that America has overwhelmingly been a force for peace globally post WW2 and the stats bear that out.

Hmm.  I agree that the world has been getting more peaceful.  Jury's out on whether or not that has anything to do with America's involvement on the world stage.  The US has done an awful lot of bad that doesn't seem to get as much press as it should here in North America.



1990s
- In a bid to kill Pablo Escobar DEA backed and supported Los Pepes, the group of people who founded the AUC and were responsible for 75% of the violent civilian deaths in Colombia over the 10 years following
- The CIA overthrew democratically elected President Aristide in cuba by training and using FRAPH

1980s
- the US destabilized the socialist government of Afghanistan and trained/installed various Taliban warlords in power.  Didn't work out too well long term for the US.
- the CIA trained, armed, and supervised El Salvadore government forces responsible for more than 66,000 civilian deaths in El Salvadore

1970s
- the US (led by Kissinger's recomendation) approved and supported the military junta responsible for the murders of 30,000 in Argentina
- overthrew democratically elected president Salvador Allende in Chile to institute General Pinochet . . . another brutal dictator.

1960s
- the US backed General Castelo Branco, installing him as a pretty brutal dictator in Brazil for more than 20 years in place of elected President Joao Goulart
- Nixon order a secret and illegal bombing of Cambodia, killing 500,000 Cambodians.  This action ended up causing a lot of Cambodian support for the Khmer Rouge.
- Backed and supported the Khmer Rouge against the Vietnamese army in Cambodia - laying millions of land mines across Cambodia
- Supported the Batista dictatorship (responsible for more than 20,000 civilian deaths) in Cuba . . . followed by years of CIA supported terrorism and assassinations in the country after Castro came to power
- Overthrew elected president of Ghana, Kwame Nkrumah

1950s
- Overthrew elected liberal government of Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala, arming and training an army and directly causing 40 years of civil war - resulting in 200,000 civilian casualties
- Overthrew the popular democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in Iran, to implement the Shah as a pretty brutal dictator
- CIA hired Saddam Hussain to assassinate the president of Iraq.  When he screwed that up, they paid him  and an intelligence officer, then later assassinated the leader and helped him take power over Iraq.

1940s
- the US recruited Minister Xhafer Deva (one of the Nazis responsible for deporting people to Auschwitz) in an attempt to overthrow the government of Albania
- instituted Syngman Rhee as dictator in South Korea, who ended up being responsible for 100,000 deaths and helping to bring about the Korean War.





I mean, this list goes on and on.  Haven't mentioned Laos, Myanmar, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Panama, Syria, Zaire . . .




Yes there have been mistakes made but the world has never been this peaceful with so few combat deaths and a lot of that is because of the military power that America exerts. Of course there's other factors like mutually assured destruction, more intertwined economies, etc. Could someone like the Chinese be better? Possibly, but they could also be far worse. It's not like they don't have their own biases and issues (ex: Uyghur re-education camps) and they have far fewer checks in their government.

I don't think too many people were hoping for the downfall of the US and the rise of China as the leading global power under Obama. As far as that might be a "thing" I think most of it is a relatively short term response to Trump.

Don't get me wrong . . . China is certainly no better.  But given history, it's difficult for me to really see the US as a force for world peace.

Just to return to the sight off-topic, since I've been quoted as being "infatuated" with China and hating the US...

None of the super powers are fabulous, China included. All of them are guilty of deliberately interfering in other countries politics, usually in order to underhandedly strike at one of the other super powers. However, America is the only one lauding itself as the global protector and purveyor of world peace, which is so frickin beyond belief it makes me angry just to type it. That part of American culture, I do absolutely hate, yes. There are even a whole lot of other parts of American culture that I think are pointless BS right through to morally bankrupt. I don't hate the entire country. If I did, I wouldn't be so worked up about the failings of the big orange twat. I'm also not "infatuated" with China. I think they're much the same as the US, except for the fact we trade more them. And I'd much rather have Xi than Trump, ta very much. I have far more respect for their 5000 year old cultural history also. Much of it managed without jumbo serves of coca cola, even.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1779 on: May 01, 2020, 06:35:46 AM »
More news out about arguments with his campaign manager.

You know, whatever else you think about him, old Drumpf does not seem to be good at evoking loyalty from those around him. He can't take a piss without it becoming a leak.

:p

So you don't think Trump could have been the source of that leak? That--by leaking his anger at Parscale--he hoped to motivate him to run a more effective campaign?

Because the alternative would be Trump actually confronting Parscale, which doesn't seem like his usual practice.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1780 on: May 01, 2020, 06:41:34 AM »
So the economy is in freefall, record numbers of Americans are out of work, and we’re likely facing months of rolling shortages in food and other supplies. Sure, Trump, more tariffs sound like a great idea. That will surely fix everything and make America great again. [/sarcasm]

Reuters: Trump threatens new tariffs on China in retaliation for coronavirus

Quote
Asked whether he would consider having the United States stop payment of its debt obligations as a way to punish Beijing, Trump said: “Well, I can do it differently. I can do the same thing, but even for more money, just by putting on tariffs. So, I don’t have to do that.”

Unsurprisingly, like absolutely everything else, he doesn’t understand how tariffs work. It is amazing to me, as the granddaughter of immigrant farm workers, that someone so absolutely devoid of intelligence, empathy, or intellectual curiosity was able to advance beyond kindergarten, let alone to any of his other charmed-life privileges, simply because he was born a wealthy white male and was never taught manners or morals.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1781 on: May 01, 2020, 07:26:42 AM »
Just to return to the sight off-topic, since I've been quoted as being "infatuated" with China and hating the US...

None of the super powers are fabulous, China included. All of them are guilty of deliberately interfering in other countries politics, usually in order to underhandedly strike at one of the other super powers. However, America is the only one lauding itself as the global protector and purveyor of world peace, which is so frickin beyond belief it makes me angry just to type it. That part of American culture, I do absolutely hate, yes. There are even a whole lot of other parts of American culture that I think are pointless BS right through to morally bankrupt. I don't hate the entire country. If I did, I wouldn't be so worked up about the failings of the big orange twat. I'm also not "infatuated" with China. I think they're much the same as the US, except for the fact we trade more them. And I'd much rather have Xi than Trump, ta very much. I have far more respect for their 5000 year old cultural history also. Much of it managed without jumbo serves of coca cola, even.

It's still a bit unclear when/if you are angry at specific posters such as myself, or at the foreign policies of the United States in general.  You have quoted specific posts and in your response have said some very aggressive things.  It's hard not to interpret that as a direct ans personal attack, even if that was not the intention.  Perhaps if we tone down the rhetoric we can have a more productive  dialog and understand each other better.

Personally, I don't see many here 'lauding' the US for being 'the global protector and purveyor of world peace'.  Most - myself included - have tried to explain the role that the US has played with international commerce while simultaneously saying it doesn't need to be this way and that it's primarily been about protecting our own interests.  Ironically, you seem to be in agreement with Trump here that the US ought to contribute far less in these matters and other partner nations (or which NZ is one) should play a much greater role. @sixwings does bring up a good and valid point, which is that under this post-WWII order the large, all-out wars between many large, powerful countries with massive death tolls have not happened, and instead we get these much smaller conflicts that last longer but are orders of magnitude less in terms of casualties and involvement.  Now, one can argue this is because of US foreign policy; in-spite-of US policy, or completely indifferent to the US.  Those are big discussions among our own own political factions here.  Correlation isn't causation, and I'm not sure either side has it right.

...as for the repeated mentions of 'jumbo serves of coca cola'... that seems to come out nowhere and I don't know how it fits into the broader conversation.  It's just an attack for the sake of being mean.  I don't think anyone here will argue that the US is facing an obesity crisis.  What makes that specific dig odd is that most developed countries - NZ included - are having similar epidemics.  It's certainly easier to point out the flaws in another's culture to feel smug.  Ironically, one of the lead stories in US newspapers has been the long lines at fast-food restaurants in NZ.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1782 on: May 01, 2020, 08:03:08 AM »
This, on how Trump continues to profit from his position:

Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin stayed at the president’s luxury hotel in D.C. for five months before buying a home in Washington.
During that time, Secret Service spent an additional $33,000 for lodging at Trump's hotel for Mnuchin's protective detail.


It's bad enough that revenue for Trump's cabinet are flowing into the Trump Organization's coffers... but five months?? 

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1783 on: May 01, 2020, 08:46:09 AM »
It's hard to blame Mnuchin. From what I recall, he got married in the middle of that first year. I know every couple is different, but I cannot imagine buying a house before my wife has a chance to look at it.

We could very easily start a separate thread that was "Mnuchin outrage of the day" if you include the antics of his wife, although she's kept a lower profile lately.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1784 on: May 01, 2020, 09:30:50 AM »
It's hard to blame Mnuchin. From what I recall, he got married in the middle of that first year. I know every couple is different, but I cannot imagine buying a house before my wife has a chance to look at it.

We could very easily start a separate thread that was "Mnuchin outrage of the day" if you include the antics of his wife, although she's kept a lower profile lately.

My outrage wasn't that it took them five months to purchase a home.  It's that they stayed at a Trump property during that time period.

The appropriate thing to do would have been to find a home to rent while the newlyweds looked around for a home to buy.  but 'appropriate; doesn;'t seem to extend to this Presidents' circle very often.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1785 on: May 01, 2020, 10:33:30 AM »
Yeah, the outrage is that Trump is allowed to continue to hold and "run" his companies. I mean, it's essentially forbidden in the Constitution...sure the 18th century wording is archaic, and the primary concern of the drafters appears to be foreign influence, but the essence is still there. But Republicans control too many levers of national government, and have taken a see-no/hear-no evil approach.

I believe history will look at this issue as one of the primary sins of this period of time. We the people through our government allowed a person with wide-ranging financial and personal interests to assume the mantle of the executive branch of our national government, and then continued to allow him to be in a position to use that power to directly enrich himself and his supporters at the expense of just about anything else.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 10:36:21 AM by PathtoFIRE »

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1786 on: May 01, 2020, 10:55:47 AM »
Yeah, the outrage is that Trump is allowed to continue to hold and "run" his companies. I mean, it's essentially forbidden in the Constitution...sure the 18th century wording is archaic, and the primary concern of the drafters appears to be foreign influence, but the essence is still there. But Republicans control too many levers of national government, and have taken a see-no/hear-no evil approach.

I believe history will look at this issue as one of the primary sins of this period of time. We the people through our government allowed a person with wide-ranging financial and personal interests to assume the mantle of the executive branch of our national government, and then continued to allow him to be in a position to use that power to directly enrich himself and his supporters at the expense of just about anything else.
They also seem to have taken a see no evil approach on the insider trading in the Senate (including Feinstein, sadly) occurring as the pandemic was ramping up. I guess one difference is that Feinstein also took action to ask agencies to prepare for the pandemic following the briefings while her (R) colleagues continued to downplay.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1787 on: May 01, 2020, 11:13:50 AM »
see no evil approach on the insider trading in the Senate

I'm sorry, the last I heard, Feinstein and one of the Republicans had trades that were clearly unlinked to any action on their part, but not so for other Republican(s). Is there new info?

Glenstache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1788 on: May 01, 2020, 11:36:36 AM »
see no evil approach on the insider trading in the Senate

I'm sorry, the last I heard, Feinstein and one of the Republicans had trades that were clearly unlinked to any action on their part, but not so for other Republican(s). Is there new info?
My info may be out of date. I'll have to dig in again.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1789 on: May 01, 2020, 12:15:08 PM »
see no evil approach on the insider trading in the Senate

I'm sorry, the last I heard, Feinstein and one of the Republicans had trades that were clearly unlinked to any action on their part, but not so for other Republican(s). Is there new info?
My info may be out of date. I'll have to dig in again.

It was her husband, Richard Blum, that made the trade. He goes in and out of stocks a lot because he owns an investment company. Blum's first sale was on 1/13, before the 1/24 intel meeting that Feinstein didn't attend.

Senator Inhofe's sales were also before the meeting and also on the 13th.

Senator Loeffler, however, sold stocks after attending the 1/24 meeting.

Senator Burr also sold stocks after the 1/24 meeting. In fact, he specifically sold hotel stocks. He then gave a speech to his donors about how bad it'll be.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/coronavirus-stocks-senators-insider-trading-richard-burr-a9463331.html

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1790 on: May 01, 2020, 12:18:20 PM »
Feinstein's trades took place within a blind trust. Also Feinstein did not attend the closed-door briefing that Burr attended shortly before his trades.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Dianne-Feinstein-richard-burr-senate-intelligence-15146178.php

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1791 on: May 01, 2020, 04:49:36 PM »
It's still a bit unclear when/if you are angry at specific posters such as myself, or at the foreign policies of the United States in general.  You have quoted specific posts and in your response have said some very aggressive things.  It's hard not to interpret that as a direct ans personal attack, even if that was not the intention.  Perhaps if we tone down the rhetoric we can have a more productive  dialog and understand each other better.
I wont presume to talk for AnnaGrowsAMustache but from an outsider looking in, none of her comments seem at all personally directed.  All her comments seem directed at "Americans" or "America" in general and not at any specific poster regardless of quoting certain posts.
Quote from: nereo
Personally, I don't see many here 'lauding' the US for being 'the global protector and purveyor of world peace'.
This is a "Trump outrage of the day" thread after all so I would not expect many posts lauding the US in general to be in this thread.  Having said that, not every post in a thread must be about the specific posters within that thread must they?

Surely you must admit that the general flavour of USA rhetoric, and the general belief of a large part of the USA population in general, is that the USA stands for "truth, justice and the American way!" so to speak.  The USA certainly portrays itself as the global protector and spreader of democracy, peace and generally all that is good and wholesome in the world.

I'm pretty sure that is what AnnaGrowsAMustache was referring to.
Quote from: nereo
Most - myself included - have tried to explain the role that the US has played with international commerce while simultaneously saying it doesn't need to be this way and that it's primarily been about protecting our own interests.  Ironically, you seem to be in agreement with Trump here that the US ought to contribute far less in these matters and other partner nations (or which NZ is one) should play a much greater role. @sixwings does bring up a good and valid point, which is that under this post-WWII order the large, all-out wars between many large, powerful countries with massive death tolls have not happened, and instead we get these much smaller conflicts that last longer but are orders of magnitude less in terms of casualties and involvement.  Now, one can argue this is because of US foreign policy; in-spite-of US policy, or completely indifferent to the US.  Those are big discussions among our own own political factions here.  Correlation isn't causation, and I'm not sure either side has it right.
As someone mentioned previously, the relative peace in the world is definitely a bonus to the "developed western world".  The same benefits have not flowed nearly so much to the middle east, south east Asia and many other parts of the world.  In short, fighting proxy wars in other regions of the globe is certainly beneficial to the Western World and the absolute numbers of dead are much less than in the past.  It's just a bit annoying to those other regions that they are the ones paying the cost of this relative peace.

As for whether this is because of US foreign policy, I think the mere fact that the USA actively instigated and supported the continuation of many of these proxy wars is evidence enough that US foreign policy is the cause .

Dr. Pepper

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1792 on: May 03, 2020, 09:08:47 PM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  It’s also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  There’s a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.

No, not at all.  you're missing entirely what's being said.  The US currently does these things, in large part because that's been their role since WWII.  It doesn't mean they have to do these things, or that other nations or groups couldn't.  They simply haven't, and currently don't have the bandwidth to do so.

I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....
Bingo.  Also, it should be pointed out that the US does these things first and foremost because it's in the interests of the United States.  It's always been about protecting [our] global commerce.

Looking at it from a slightly New Zealand perspective, when freight is shipped to NZ from Bangkok or into the Med that route is largely secured via the US Navy and the US-backed NATO.

What a lot of utter bollocks. Feel free to take the US Navy and shove it where the sun don't shine. Pretty sure we'll all get along just fine without some self declared and painfully annoying "big brother".

When you say get along just fine, do you mean that New Zealand would be able to defend itself without US Naval support? Given that NZ has around 8 ships in it's Navy (2 of which are combat oriented) and only spends 5 billion NZD (~3 billion USD) a year on defense (roughly equivalent to 1.5% of GDP) do you think this would require a significant shift in spending priorities?

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1793 on: May 03, 2020, 11:02:44 PM »
When you say get along just fine, do you mean that New Zealand would be able to defend itself without US Naval support? Given that NZ has around 8 ships in it's Navy (2 of which are combat oriented) and only spends 5 billion NZD (~3 billion USD) a year on defense (roughly equivalent to 1.5% of GDP) do you think this would require a significant shift in spending priorities?
Your question presumes that A) NZ is in danger of being attacked and B) wants to defend against that.

I heard that Mexico has a small army for the simple reason that there are only 2 countries they could reasonably expect a war with: USA and Guatemala.
In case of Guatemala they would easily win, in case of the US they would not be able to win whatever they spend. So they don't.

What about NZ is in a similar position? The mostly poor neighbors are not able to mount an Island invasion. And everyone who is would simply overrun even a 10% defense budget.
Not to mention that the islanders maybe don't want to lose everything (including their lifes) in a war even if they are attacked.

And why would anyone even attack?

And in the end let's not forget that you only need an army because other have it. If nobody has an army, nobody needs an army. And it is often the US who prevents arming-down initiatives.
That is how they won the Cold War after all, by simply using their superior economical position to outspend the other countries.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1794 on: May 04, 2020, 12:13:55 AM »
When you say get along just fine, do you mean that New Zealand would be able to defend itself without US Naval support?
From whom?

LennStar

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1795 on: May 04, 2020, 04:02:32 AM »
RE: Army Budget

If the US would HALVE their expenses I think they would still come close behind China (which has 5 times as many people and internal needs for an army). Instead of bombing the Middle East the US could use that money to e.g. do a "become more climate friendly" economy relief scheme, thus lowering terrorism, help saving the world from the real biggest thread and give work to unemployed in the Corona Crisis.

But I know that would be leftist extremist politics, so it won't happen.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1796 on: May 04, 2020, 04:47:40 AM »
When you say get along just fine, do you mean that New Zealand would be able to defend itself without US Naval support?
From whom?

The hordes of Sydneysiders who have to leave because climate change has burned the bush to the west and eroded the beaches to the east.

Seriously though, @AnnaGrowsAMustache, given the choice, the US for all it's faults it's much more preferable to me than the Panda to the North.

You do well to look through the propaganda and double speak that passes for "friendship". It scares the hell out of me how He Who Must Not Be Named has managed to quell and control 1.4 billion people. They won't stop until the entire world comes under Chinese influence and control.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1797 on: May 04, 2020, 06:47:59 AM »
While it may be hip/edgy to forecast the downfall of the USA, I don't think the USA is going anywhere. The military is too strong and too influential on the global economy. The US Navy controls all global shipping and the USAF controls all air shipping. In the global economy countries like China need goods both shipped to them and they need to ship goods to other countries. Their air force and navy is a loooooooooooooong way from being able to rival the USA and it's very possible they may never be able to. Until star trek style replicators are created whoever controls the flow of goods will control the global economy and the USA has such a head start and advantage that it will be so difficult/impossible for other countries to gain a foothold. There might be some fraying of the edges but that influence/control is not on the verge of collapse because Trump's a moron.

How does the US navy control all global shipping?? NZ ships stuff all over the place and I've never heard one single mention of the US navy being required. Do you even have a presence in the Tasman Sea?? Ditto air shipping?

Short version:  the USN patrols the overwhelming majority of international waters, and is the only country with a Navy even remotely large and diverse enough to do so.  It’s also the most often nation to respond to distress in international waters.  There’s a few hot-spots of pirate activity, but by-and-large cargo ships get to and from their destinations unmolested.

As for air shipping, as mentioned earlier the entire air traffic control network is underpinned by the US.  Which is why an international flight with a German pilot on a German airline coming into Berlin will still be directed in English until the flight is taken over by ground control in Germany.

Domestic flights and shipping are another story, handled entirely by the sovereign country (with some exceptions).

Are you under the impression that Europe could not manage it's own bloody flight traffic without the US??? You can't even manage your own domestic issues, currently.

No, not at all.  you're missing entirely what's being said.  The US currently does these things, in large part because that's been their role since WWII.  It doesn't mean they have to do these things, or that other nations or groups couldn't.  They simply haven't, and currently don't have the bandwidth to do so.

I think the US might have a fairly inflated idea of it's own global importance....
Pretty damn sure that China and Russia are more than capable of protecting their own shipping routes. If protection is even required.
To how much of China's South China Sea land and maritime claims do you suggest Indonesia, the Philippines, and other directly affected countries acquiesce?

It's probably not an issue of protecting China's shipping....
Bingo.  Also, it should be pointed out that the US does these things first and foremost because it's in the interests of the United States.  It's always been about protecting [our] global commerce.

Looking at it from a slightly New Zealand perspective, when freight is shipped to NZ from Bangkok or into the Med that route is largely secured via the US Navy and the US-backed NATO.

What a lot of utter bollocks. Feel free to take the US Navy and shove it where the sun don't shine. Pretty sure we'll all get along just fine without some self declared and painfully annoying "big brother".

When you say get along just fine, do you mean that New Zealand would be able to defend itself without US Naval support? Given that NZ has around 8 ships in it's Navy (2 of which are combat oriented) and only spends 5 billion NZD (~3 billion USD) a year on defense (roughly equivalent to 1.5% of GDP) do you think this would require a significant shift in spending priorities?

Who do you imagine is going to mount an attack on an island country as far away as we are???? Our armed forces are peacekeeping, search and rescue and patrolling our waters for incursions - and we're talking rickety old boats from asia with a crew of a dozen who come in to poach fish. We don't stomp around the globe making enemies, we have good relationships with our neighbours and the rest of the pacific, we're on respectful terms with superpowers. Seriously dude.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1798 on: May 04, 2020, 06:50:34 AM »
When you say get along just fine, do you mean that New Zealand would be able to defend itself without US Naval support?
From whom?

Fuck only knows. Anyone wanting to target us would have to be based in Aus. And if you guys wanted to annex us, we'd probably just have a vote or something. Since you keep sending us back kiwi troublemakers, I'm guessing it's unlikely we'll be an aussie state anytime soon.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1799 on: May 04, 2020, 06:59:41 AM »
Just to return to the sight off-topic, since I've been quoted as being "infatuated" with China and hating the US...

None of the super powers are fabulous, China included. All of them are guilty of deliberately interfering in other countries politics, usually in order to underhandedly strike at one of the other super powers. However, America is the only one lauding itself as the global protector and purveyor of world peace, which is so frickin beyond belief it makes me angry just to type it. That part of American culture, I do absolutely hate, yes. There are even a whole lot of other parts of American culture that I think are pointless BS right through to morally bankrupt. I don't hate the entire country. If I did, I wouldn't be so worked up about the failings of the big orange twat. I'm also not "infatuated" with China. I think they're much the same as the US, except for the fact we trade more them. And I'd much rather have Xi than Trump, ta very much. I have far more respect for their 5000 year old cultural history also. Much of it managed without jumbo serves of coca cola, even.

It's still a bit unclear when/if you are angry at specific posters such as myself, or at the foreign policies of the United States in general.  You have quoted specific posts and in your response have said some very aggressive things.  It's hard not to interpret that as a direct ans personal attack, even if that was not the intention.  Perhaps if we tone down the rhetoric we can have a more productive  dialog and understand each other better.

Personally, I don't see many here 'lauding' the US for being 'the global protector and purveyor of world peace'.  Most - myself included - have tried to explain the role that the US has played with international commerce while simultaneously saying it doesn't need to be this way and that it's primarily been about protecting our own interests.  Ironically, you seem to be in agreement with Trump here that the US ought to contribute far less in these matters and other partner nations (or which NZ is one) should play a much greater role. @sixwings does bring up a good and valid point, which is that under this post-WWII order the large, all-out wars between many large, powerful countries with massive death tolls have not happened, and instead we get these much smaller conflicts that last longer but are orders of magnitude less in terms of casualties and involvement.  Now, one can argue this is because of US foreign policy; in-spite-of US policy, or completely indifferent to the US.  Those are big discussions among our own own political factions here.  Correlation isn't causation, and I'm not sure either side has it right.

...as for the repeated mentions of 'jumbo serves of coca cola'... that seems to come out nowhere and I don't know how it fits into the broader conversation.  It's just an attack for the sake of being mean.  I don't think anyone here will argue that the US is facing an obesity crisis.  What makes that specific dig odd is that most developed countries - NZ included - are having similar epidemics.  It's certainly easier to point out the flaws in another's culture to feel smug.  Ironically, one of the lead stories in US newspapers has been the long lines at fast-food restaurants in NZ.

First of all, we've had long lines at fast food outlets because we were in total lock down for 5 weeks. No shops were open at all except for supermarkets and pharmacies. The country is in fast food cold turkey!

Secondly, you're interpreting your posts in a way that takes into account your intent, and interpreting mine in a way that does not take into account mine. I'm not targeting you specifically. Despite the fact that your post could be interpreted as promoting a super-arrogant US attitude.

Thirdly, I'm not angry at the US. If the US was a person, it'd be an arrogant overbred fucktard of a man and I'd have to punch him. If NZ was a person, we'd be some slightly nerdy kid with an inferiority disorder who just wants to hang out with the big kids. If Aus was a person, it'd be the younger sidekick of the US who isn't too sure they really want to be in that position but enjoys yelling 'Yeah! What he said!".