Author Topic: Trump outrage of the day  (Read 155613 times)

OzzieandHarriet

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OzzieandHarriet

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1251 on: March 22, 2020, 11:29:56 AM »
Actually not clear exactly when the letter was sent. Though the administration verified sending it (per the news stories).

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1252 on: March 22, 2020, 11:31:54 AM »
My question is:  How bad is the pandemic in North Korea?

GreenEggs

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1253 on: March 22, 2020, 01:10:03 PM »
It seems COVID-19 is putting a new spin on the MAGA theme.  Hopefully, we will learn to be a more generous, thoughtful, and united society.   


Trump was a symptom of what we had become. 

Travis

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1254 on: March 22, 2020, 05:41:58 PM »
My question is:  How bad is the pandemic in North Korea?

How is _____ in North Korea?

Great question. One of life's mysteries.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1255 on: March 23, 2020, 10:41:15 AM »
Fauci was seen doing a face palm over Trump's "Deep State" remark. He replied, in an interview, that Trump makes false statements about the coronavirus.

"I canít jump in front of the microphone and push him down."

What's his timeline before he gets shitcanned leaves to pursue private practice? End of April, when it's "Mission Accomplished!" with the virus? In 2 weeks, which Trump is now hinting could be the end of the closures?

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1256 on: March 23, 2020, 11:07:49 AM »
Fauci was seen doing a face palm over Trump's "Deep State" remark. He replied, in an interview, that Trump makes false statements about the coronavirus.

"I canít jump in front of the microphone and push him down."

What's his timeline before he gets shitcanned leaves to pursue private practice? End of April, when it's "Mission Accomplished!" with the virus? In 2 weeks, which Trump is now hinting could be the end of the closures?

I think sooner.  Trump doesnít like where this is going, and his MO is to find someone to blame (ďYouíre FIRED!Ē).  My random-ass-guess is that by next week when the numbers continue to escalate and people start commenting on how the market was higher under Obama heíll start ripping into Fauci on twitter, and then heíll leave/be fired in some humiliating way, like learning about it while giving a briefing to staff in the CDC.

scottish

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1257 on: March 23, 2020, 03:04:10 PM »
Trump now seems to be changing his mind about trying to stop the virus.   The economic cost will be too great.

Apparently a man in critical condition in Florida took some Plaquenil (hydroxycholoroquine) and miraculously recovered.    So all we have to do is give everyone lots of plaquenil.

BTW, I take plaquenil.    When i first started it made me nauseous and dizzy.    After the first month I was  just mildly dizzy/vertiginous.    And I still am, 10 years on. 

This drug is used to treat some nasty auto-immune disorders.   It's not something you want to take on spec.    The Chinese doctors who tried it were using 2.5x the standard dose.

Hopefully the orange baboon won't create an unnecessary shortage as he flings his latest pile of shit about.


ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1258 on: March 23, 2020, 03:17:40 PM »
Trump now seems to be changing his mind about trying to stop the virus.   The economic cost will be too great.

Apparently a man in critical condition in Florida took some Plaquenil (hydroxycholoroquine) and miraculously recovered.    So all we have to do is give everyone lots of plaquenil.

BTW, I take plaquenil.    When i first started it made me nauseous and dizzy.    After the first month I was  just mildly dizzy/vertiginous.    And I still am, 10 years on. 

This drug is used to treat some nasty auto-immune disorders.   It's not something you want to take on spec.    The Chinese doctors who tried it were using 2.5x the standard dose.

Hopefully the orange baboon won't create an unnecessary shortage as he flings his latest pile of shit about.

There are reports of overdoses because he said "we know" rather than "we are studying."

Meanwhile, all of the Trump supporters are swearing at Democrats for wanting some restrictions on how we bail out corporations.

American GenX

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1259 on: March 23, 2020, 03:22:23 PM »
In 2 weeks, which Trump is now hinting could be the end of the closures?

Yeah, he is more concerned about the effect on the economy (and his re-election) than he is about American lives and overwhelmed hospitals.  That is very clear.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1260 on: March 23, 2020, 03:48:54 PM »


Hopefully the orange baboon won't create an unnecessary shortage as he flings his latest pile of shit about.


Ha ha!

"Orange baboon" is chucklesome.

When he was guest speaker at the Commonwealth Club, George Takei ("Mr. Sulu") called Trump an "orangutan."

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1261 on: March 23, 2020, 05:28:43 PM »
Trump now seems to be changing his mind about trying to stop the virus.   The economic cost will be too great.

Apparently a man in critical condition in Florida took some Plaquenil (hydroxycholoroquine) and miraculously recovered.    So all we have to do is give everyone lots of plaquenil.

BTW, I take plaquenil.    When i first started it made me nauseous and dizzy.    After the first month I was  just mildly dizzy/vertiginous.    And I still am, 10 years on. 

This drug is used to treat some nasty auto-immune disorders.   It's not something you want to take on spec.    The Chinese doctors who tried it were using 2.5x the standard dose.

Hopefully the orange baboon won't create an unnecessary shortage as he flings his latest pile of shit about.

There are reports of overdoses because he said "we know" rather than "we are studying."

Meanwhile, all of the Trump supporters are swearing at Democrats for wanting some restrictions on how we bail out corporations.

Use a medication in increased doses for ailments it was never tested for across a wide swath of the population?  What could possibly go wrong!?

Trump is grasping for a lifeline here. Sadly there isnít likely to be a quick, painless fix.

DaMa

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1262 on: March 23, 2020, 09:02:42 PM »
Dr. Fauci was not there for the briefing today.  This is not a good sign.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1263 on: March 23, 2020, 09:09:54 PM »
Dr. Fauci was not there for the briefing today.  This is not a good sign.

He did a few interviews over the weekend. He may have been Trumped. No, it is not a good sign. He may have been the only one with any good sense on that task force.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1264 on: March 24, 2020, 06:54:04 AM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1265 on: March 24, 2020, 07:02:49 AM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

If Trump says that it's safe and sends everyone back to work, go.  That means that the US has entirely given up on quarantine measures . . . and they don't work if only a few people do it, so there's not much point in trying on your own.  You might get sick.  You might die.  You might have permanent lung problems.  But you'll get them anyway if the quarantine is over and most of the people around you are also infected.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1266 on: March 24, 2020, 07:58:27 AM »
Trump can't "re-open" anything because he hasn't shut anything down.  It's been left up to the states.

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1267 on: March 24, 2020, 08:25:53 AM »
Trump can't "re-open" anything because he hasn't shut anything down.  It's been left up to the states.

He doesn't understand that his refusal to order a nationwide shut-down means that he can't reverse the state-level orders.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1268 on: March 24, 2020, 08:38:22 AM »
Trump can't "re-open" anything because he hasn't shut anything down.  It's been left up to the states.

He doesn't understand that his refusal to order a nationwide shut-down means that he can't reverse the state-level orders.

Most states with a Republican governor will follow Trump's lead. Then they'll stop testing to keep the numbers down.

Look at the toady West Virginia governor -- he was receiving accolades from Trump about being the last state without a case. See https://time.com/5805571/james-vigil-west-virginia/.


OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1269 on: March 24, 2020, 08:41:04 AM »
Trump can't "re-open" anything because he hasn't shut anything down.  It's been left up to the states.

He doesn't understand that his refusal to order a nationwide shut-down means that he can't reverse the state-level orders.

Most states with a Republican governor will follow Trump's lead. Then they'll stop testing to keep the numbers down.

Look at the toady West Virginia governor -- he was receiving accolades from Trump about being the last state without a case. See https://time.com/5805571/james-vigil-west-virginia/.

Unfortunately, you're probably right. I don't understand the cult worship in that party.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1270 on: March 24, 2020, 08:42:05 AM »
Trump can't "re-open" anything because he hasn't shut anything down.  It's been left up to the states.

He doesn't understand that his refusal to order a nationwide shut-down means that he can't reverse the state-level orders.

State rights*!!!!

*when we see fit - Republicans

ixtap

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1271 on: March 24, 2020, 08:46:38 AM »
Wrong answer deleted
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 09:03:53 AM by ixtap »

OtherJen

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1272 on: March 24, 2020, 08:47:51 AM »
Trump can't "re-open" anything because he hasn't shut anything down.  It's been left up to the states.

He doesn't understand that his refusal to order a nationwide shut-down means that he can't reverse the state-level orders.

State rights*!!!!

*when we see fit - Republicans

Pretty much.

bacchi

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1273 on: March 24, 2020, 09:05:53 AM »
With students returning to Liberty after spring break, that should be fixed....

It'll be a good test of Trump's "Mission Accomplished!" I'm glad it's them and not my local university.

Liberty students do have a few things going for them. They probably congregated less over Spring Break, in smaller groups. They might also be from less populated areas, which means a slower rate of infection.

But as some epidemiologist said, no area is going to escape this.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1274 on: March 24, 2020, 09:40:43 AM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

If Trump says that it's safe and sends everyone back to work, go.  That means that the US has entirely given up on quarantine measures . . . and they don't work if only a few people do it, so there's not much point in trying on your own.  You might get sick.  You might die.  You might have permanent lung problems.  But you'll get them anyway if the quarantine is over and most of the people around you are also infected.

I don't agree.  You can't stop community-level spread unless everyone is participating, but you can protect your own family. Continue to self-isolate and you drastically reduce the likelihood that you and your family will come down with the virus.

FWIW we're facing a similar question @talltexan  - Spouse's workplace is debating right now whether to forge on ahead with a multi-year project that will involve a lot of travel and a lot of people interacting in the field, in close proximity to one another.  A vocal faction of this group are conservative types that are arguing this isn't a big deal ("it's like the flu!").  They are certainly influenced by the fact that - as of right now - zero cases have been reported in their county and they think it's a foreign, mostly urban problem that "might go away when it warms up".

Regardless, I think in 7-10 days the domestic numbers will climb so rapidly that even Trump supporters will have to view this as a serious problem.  Of course they are already laying the groundwork to absolve themselves of all blame.

Today's latest argument from team-Trump:  The [FAKE!] impeachment trial prevented Trump from addressing this crisis.  It's all the Dem's fault!
.... because apparently his refusal to realize there was a problem was directly tied to his impeachment.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1275 on: March 24, 2020, 11:33:12 AM »
Perhaps it is distracting to have Congress asking you for all those documents. It takes a lot of time to track them down, and you can't remember quite where some are, so you have to look for them. Trump must have spent all of January looking for the documents the House asked him to provide.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1276 on: March 24, 2020, 11:43:16 AM »
Perhaps it is distracting to have Congress asking you for all those documents. It takes a lot of time to track them down, and you can't remember quite where some are, so you have to look for them. Trump must have spent all of January looking for the documents the House asked him to provide.

I'm certain an impeachment is very distracting.  But a well-functioning executive branch has dozens of competent department heads all leading their various bureaus.  Even during a crisis within the WH the remainder should continue to function well - Clinton is an example. 

But Trump has replaced competence with loyalist-toadies, and has decided he alone can and should set the path for the entire government (not just the executive branch), randomly altering programs and missions with little input from the people implementing them.  It's textbook micromanagement gone horribly wrong. Ergo, the blame is his.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1277 on: March 24, 2020, 01:00:43 PM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

If Trump says that it's safe and sends everyone back to work, go.  That means that the US has entirely given up on quarantine measures . . . and they don't work if only a few people do it, so there's not much point in trying on your own.  You might get sick.  You might die.  You might have permanent lung problems.  But you'll get them anyway if the quarantine is over and most of the people around you are also infected.

I don't agree.  You can't stop community-level spread unless everyone is participating, but you can protect your own family. Continue to self-isolate and you drastically reduce the likelihood that you and your family will come down with the virus.


If your whole community is infected and passing around the virus . . . you're fucked.  You need food and supplies somehow, and a way to pay for them.  You need to leave your home regularly.  I don't care how careful you are, you'll slip up.  Maybe your nose is itchy after you pick up that parcel of food.  Maybe someone sneezes from their balcony, it's caught in the wind, and a tiny drop lands in your eye.  They'll get you sooner or later.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1278 on: March 24, 2020, 01:07:14 PM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

If Trump says that it's safe and sends everyone back to work, go.  That means that the US has entirely given up on quarantine measures . . . and they don't work if only a few people do it, so there's not much point in trying on your own.  You might get sick.  You might die.  You might have permanent lung problems.  But you'll get them anyway if the quarantine is over and most of the people around you are also infected.

I don't agree.  You can't stop community-level spread unless everyone is participating, but you can protect your own family. Continue to self-isolate and you drastically reduce the likelihood that you and your family will come down with the virus.


If your whole community is infected and passing around the virus . . . you're fucked.  You need food and supplies somehow, and a way to pay for them.  You need to leave your home regularly.  I don't care how careful you are, you'll slip up.  Maybe your nose is itchy after you pick up that parcel of food.  Maybe someone sneezes from their balcony, it's caught in the wind, and a tiny drop lands in your eye.  They'll get you sooner or later.

Is this kind of thinking that leads people to conclude: why bother.
Peoples with autoimmune diseases deal with this everyday, successfully. Getting the Coronavirus is not a foregone conclusion, even if you are in a hotspot.
You CAN reduce your risk of exposure.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1279 on: March 24, 2020, 01:15:09 PM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

If Trump says that it's safe and sends everyone back to work, go.  That means that the US has entirely given up on quarantine measures . . . and they don't work if only a few people do it, so there's not much point in trying on your own.  You might get sick.  You might die.  You might have permanent lung problems.  But you'll get them anyway if the quarantine is over and most of the people around you are also infected.

I don't agree.  You can't stop community-level spread unless everyone is participating, but you can protect your own family. Continue to self-isolate and you drastically reduce the likelihood that you and your family will come down with the virus.


If your whole community is infected and passing around the virus . . . you're fucked.  You need food and supplies somehow, and a way to pay for them.  You need to leave your home regularly.  I don't care how careful you are, you'll slip up.  Maybe your nose is itchy after you pick up that parcel of food.  Maybe someone sneezes from their balcony, it's caught in the wind, and a tiny drop lands in your eye.  They'll get you sooner or later.

Is this kind of thinking that leads people to conclude: why bother.
Peoples with autoimmune diseases deal with this everyday, successfully. Getting the Coronavirus is not a foregone conclusion, even if you are in a hotspot.
You CAN reduce your risk of exposure.

You can reduce risk . . . but be honest.  This is an extremely contagious disease, and I'm an uneducated idiot with whatever supplies I bought when this seemed like a pipe dream a couple weeks ago.  Even well trained, well equipped doctors occasionally fuck up.  You can put it off for a while . . . but you're definitely going to get the disease if everyone else out there has it.  Quarantining draws strength from the fact that everyone's doing it . . . so when you fuck up it's a lot less likely that you'll fuck up in a way that transmits the disease.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1280 on: March 24, 2020, 02:21:07 PM »
Perhaps it is distracting to have Congress asking you for all those documents. It takes a lot of time to track them down, and you can't remember quite where some are, so you have to look for them. Trump must have spent all of January looking for the documents the House asked him to provide.

I'm certain an impeachment is very distracting.  But a well-functioning executive branch has dozens of competent department heads all leading their various bureaus.  Even during a crisis within the WH the remainder should continue to function well - Clinton is an example. 

But Trump has replaced competence with loyalist-toadies, and has decided he alone can and should set the path for the entire government (not just the executive branch), randomly altering programs and missions with little input from the people implementing them.  It's textbook micromanagement gone horribly wrong. Ergo, the blame is his.

Truth. Add to it the fact that Trump just basically failed to produce the documents, betting that Democrats would proceed without them in the House (they did), and betting that the Senate would give him a mulligan (to their embarrassment, they did).

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1281 on: March 24, 2020, 02:39:59 PM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

If Trump says that it's safe and sends everyone back to work, go.  That means that the US has entirely given up on quarantine measures . . . and they don't work if only a few people do it, so there's not much point in trying on your own.  You might get sick.  You might die.  You might have permanent lung problems.  But you'll get them anyway if the quarantine is over and most of the people around you are also infected.

I don't agree.  You can't stop community-level spread unless everyone is participating, but you can protect your own family. Continue to self-isolate and you drastically reduce the likelihood that you and your family will come down with the virus.


If your whole community is infected and passing around the virus . . . you're fucked.  You need food and supplies somehow, and a way to pay for them.  You need to leave your home regularly.  I don't care how careful you are, you'll slip up.  Maybe your nose is itchy after you pick up that parcel of food.  Maybe someone sneezes from their balcony, it's caught in the wind, and a tiny drop lands in your eye.  They'll get you sooner or later.

Is this kind of thinking that leads people to conclude: why bother.
Peoples with autoimmune diseases deal with this everyday, successfully. Getting the Coronavirus is not a foregone conclusion, even if you are in a hotspot.
You CAN reduce your risk of exposure.

You can reduce risk . . . but be honest.  This is an extremely contagious disease, and I'm an uneducated idiot with whatever supplies I bought when this seemed like a pipe dream a couple weeks ago.  Even well trained, well equipped doctors occasionally fuck up.  You can put it off for a while . . . but you're definitely going to get the disease if everyone else out there has it.  Quarantining draws strength from the fact that everyone's doing it . . . so when you fuck up it's a lot less likely that you'll fuck up in a way that transmits the disease.
Iíll give you that the likelihood of contracting the disease is >0% even with the best precautions, but itís also much, much less than 100%. Several million people in Wuhan whoíve managed to not contact the virus is evidence enough

Also important to consider - unlike, Say, HIV - a person who gets the virus isnít contagious forever. And someone who has already gotten the virus appears to be resilient to getting it again. Guidance says that process happens in just a few weeks. So outbreaks will eventually subside as the number of available hosts decreases. It will remain in all likelihood, but you simply canít have a large portion of the community be contagious for months on end. I

MKinVA

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1282 on: March 24, 2020, 02:41:09 PM »
You can also reduce your risk long enough that there is better treatment, available services and beds, long enough that maybe the dose of virus is less virulent. Just stay home. The rich cats want you to go to work and make money for them. Is Gary Cohn going to work in a bus? On the subway? Is he even gonna go to work or is he going to work, as he is now, from his hideaway in the Catskills (or somewhere similar)? The people who will have to go to work are those without insurance, without a safety net, and whose work brings them in contact with the most people on a daily basis: deli guy, bus driver, taxi, uber, lyft driver, the secretary and runner on the exchange, the lady who cleans houses for a living, etc. These people will die because they don't have health insurance, don't have the luxury of running to the doctor cause they have a headache, and won't be tested for the virus cause that's for rich people.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1283 on: March 24, 2020, 02:43:10 PM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

If Trump says that it's safe and sends everyone back to work, go.  That means that the US has entirely given up on quarantine measures . . . and they don't work if only a few people do it, so there's not much point in trying on your own.  You might get sick.  You might die.  You might have permanent lung problems.  But you'll get them anyway if the quarantine is over and most of the people around you are also infected.

I don't agree.  You can't stop community-level spread unless everyone is participating, but you can protect your own family. Continue to self-isolate and you drastically reduce the likelihood that you and your family will come down with the virus.


If your whole community is infected and passing around the virus . . . you're fucked.  You need food and supplies somehow, and a way to pay for them.  You need to leave your home regularly.  I don't care how careful you are, you'll slip up.  Maybe your nose is itchy after you pick up that parcel of food.  Maybe someone sneezes from their balcony, it's caught in the wind, and a tiny drop lands in your eye.  They'll get you sooner or later.

Is this kind of thinking that leads people to conclude: why bother.
Peoples with autoimmune diseases deal with this everyday, successfully. Getting the Coronavirus is not a foregone conclusion, even if you are in a hotspot.
You CAN reduce your risk of exposure.

You can reduce risk . . . but be honest.  This is an extremely contagious disease, and I'm an uneducated idiot with whatever supplies I bought when this seemed like a pipe dream a couple weeks ago.  Even well trained, well equipped doctors occasionally fuck up.  You can put it off for a while . . . but you're definitely going to get the disease if everyone else out there has it.  Quarantining draws strength from the fact that everyone's doing it . . . so when you fuck up it's a lot less likely that you'll fuck up in a way that transmits the disease.
Iíll give you that the likelihood of contracting the disease is >0% even with the best precautions, but itís also much, much less than 100%. Several million people in Wuhan whoíve managed to not contact the virus is evidence enough

Also important to consider - unlike, Say, HIV - a person who gets the virus isnít contagious forever. And someone who has already gotten the virus appears to be resilient to getting it again. Guidance says that process happens in just a few weeks. So outbreaks will eventually subside as the number of available hosts decreases. It will remain in all likelihood, but you simply canít have a large portion of the community be contagious for months on end. I

In Wuhan everyone followed quarantine.  Agreed, that's what works.  We were taking about a situation where most people do not though.  I don't think the Wuhan numbers would be anywhere near as good if they didn't have a radical and well-followed shutdown.

talltexan

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1284 on: March 24, 2020, 02:53:40 PM »
That Wuhan shutdown appears to have reduced consumer spending for all of China by 15%-20% (think of Wuhan as the equivalent of Memphis where all the Fedex hubs are).

I think it's obvious that Trump cannot accept an American economy with that kind of reduction in spending for whatever reasons.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1285 on: March 24, 2020, 04:54:25 PM »
Living as a #nevertrump Republican in a conservative state generally means I keep my head down.

I have no idea what I would do if Trump "reopened" the economy next week, and I was asked to report to work, and the send my children to school. If Trump tells us it's safe, I simply don't know how I could take the statement as accurate. Most other information sources say it's not. If I had an employer who weighed Trump's statement as equal to others, what recourse would there be?

If Trump says that it's safe and sends everyone back to work, go.  That means that the US has entirely given up on quarantine measures . . . and they don't work if only a few people do it, so there's not much point in trying on your own.  You might get sick.  You might die.  You might have permanent lung problems.  But you'll get them anyway if the quarantine is over and most of the people around you are also infected.

I don't agree.  You can't stop community-level spread unless everyone is participating, but you can protect your own family. Continue to self-isolate and you drastically reduce the likelihood that you and your family will come down with the virus.


If your whole community is infected and passing around the virus . . . you're fucked.  You need food and supplies somehow, and a way to pay for them.  You need to leave your home regularly.  I don't care how careful you are, you'll slip up.  Maybe your nose is itchy after you pick up that parcel of food.  Maybe someone sneezes from their balcony, it's caught in the wind, and a tiny drop lands in your eye.  They'll get you sooner or later.

Is this kind of thinking that leads people to conclude: why bother.
Peoples with autoimmune diseases deal with this everyday, successfully. Getting the Coronavirus is not a foregone conclusion, even if you are in a hotspot.
You CAN reduce your risk of exposure.

You can reduce risk . . . but be honest.  This is an extremely contagious disease, and I'm an uneducated idiot with whatever supplies I bought when this seemed like a pipe dream a couple weeks ago.  Even well trained, well equipped doctors occasionally fuck up.  You can put it off for a while . . . but you're definitely going to get the disease if everyone else out there has it.  Quarantining draws strength from the fact that everyone's doing it . . . so when you fuck up it's a lot less likely that you'll fuck up in a way that transmits the disease.
Iíll give you that the likelihood of contracting the disease is >0% even with the best precautions, but itís also much, much less than 100%. Several million people in Wuhan whoíve managed to not contact the virus is evidence enough

Also important to consider - unlike, Say, HIV - a person who gets the virus isnít contagious forever. And someone who has already gotten the virus appears to be resilient to getting it again. Guidance says that process happens in just a few weeks. So outbreaks will eventually subside as the number of available hosts decreases. It will remain in all likelihood, but you simply canít have a large portion of the community be contagious for months on end. I

In Wuhan everyone followed quarantine.  Agreed, that's what works.  We were taking about a situation where most people do not though.  I don't think the Wuhan numbers would be anywhere near as good if they didn't have a radical and well-followed shutdown.
Not what i was getting at.

martyconlonontherun

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1286 on: March 24, 2020, 05:06:20 PM »
I hope the media hammers Trump on the consistent cruise industry bail out. So transparent he is just helping his friends with a non-essential, non-american, dirty business (labor laws and environmental issues).

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1287 on: March 24, 2020, 05:15:23 PM »
You cannot justify the bailout to the cruise industry, I agree. He said something about one of the company's CEOs saying he would lend the government a couple of ships and then today I saw an article about a I think Carnival Ship having COVID-19 detectable on surfaces after 17 days after probable infection. Those ships are disgusting!

I don't know why we wouldn't use the dormitories of all the public colleges that have closed. Use for hospital staff and for infected persons. Create some ICU's in other dorms, etc. 

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1288 on: March 25, 2020, 05:11:56 AM »
Quote
Several million people in Wuhan whoíve managed to not contact the virus is evidence enough
If you ask a Chinese from Wuhan about the "quarantine" in the US (or EU for that matter) they will probably say "you have a quarantine?".

As I like to say, you may not agree with a lot the Chinese government does, but they never do it half-way. If they decide to quarantine, nobody leaves the house except in emergency even in a 30 million area. Of course it helps dramatically that Chinese are a lot more likely to follow government orders, especially useful ones, than the US people.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1289 on: March 25, 2020, 07:13:22 AM »
I hope the media hammers Trump on the consistent cruise industry bail out. So transparent he is just helping his friends with a non-essential, non-american, dirty business (labor laws and environmental issues).

Why does America need to bail them out?  The ships are all based in countries with the most lax laws.  Let those countries bail them out.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1290 on: March 25, 2020, 08:29:40 AM »
I hope the media hammers Trump on the consistent cruise industry bail out. So transparent he is just helping his friends with a non-essential, non-american, dirty business (labor laws and environmental issues).

Why does America need to bail them out?  The ships are all based in countries with the most lax laws.  Let those countries bail them out.
The ships are based in those countries, the companies and employees are not.
Personally I hate the mega t ship industry (as someone who spend their 20s working for much smaller boats). But each one of those ship employ a thousand or more largely seasonal workers. For better or worse, ports of call have most of their economy dependent on the hundreds of thousands or tourists that drop in each season   

My feelings are if they get a bail out it ought to be like GM and Chrysler in the Great Recession... large loans with interest, and the government gets to hold an equity stake until its paid in full. As large and important seasonal employers they are an important part of many local economies. As for profit companies they need to have a profitable business or go through bankruptcy.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1291 on: March 25, 2020, 08:50:01 AM »
I hope the media hammers Trump on the consistent cruise industry bail out. So transparent he is just helping his friends with a non-essential, non-american, dirty business (labor laws and environmental issues).

Why does America need to bail them out?  The ships are all based in countries with the most lax laws.  Let those countries bail them out.
The ships are based in those countries, the companies and employees are not.
Personally I hate the mega t ship industry (as someone who spend their 20s working for much smaller boats). But each one of those ship employ a thousand or more largely seasonal workers. For better or worse, ports of call have most of their economy dependent on the hundreds of thousands or tourists that drop in each season.

So they want the taxpayers to bail them out but don't want to pay U.S. taxes or follow U.S. laws on their ships?  Got it.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1292 on: March 25, 2020, 09:13:11 AM »
I hope the media hammers Trump on the consistent cruise industry bail out. So transparent he is just helping his friends with a non-essential, non-american, dirty business (labor laws and environmental issues).

Why does America need to bail them out?  The ships are all based in countries with the most lax laws.  Let those countries bail them out.
The ships are based in those countries, the companies and employees are not.
Personally I hate the mega t ship industry (as someone who spend their 20s working for much smaller boats). But each one of those ship employ a thousand or more largely seasonal workers. For better or worse, ports of call have most of their economy dependent on the hundreds of thousands or tourists that drop in each season.

So they want the taxpayers to bail them out but don't want to pay U.S. taxes or follow U.S. laws on their ships?  Got it.
Yup. ItĎa a messed up system but is rooted in international maritime law, not unique to the United States. FWIW, Al shipping companies do this too- itís not unique to the cruise ship industry. Anything you buy which was transported on a ship almost certainly was on a ship registered to one of a handful of mostly island nations. This is true even if itís 100% American made.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1293 on: March 25, 2020, 09:20:25 AM »
I hope the media hammers Trump on the consistent cruise industry bail out. So transparent he is just helping his friends with a non-essential, non-american, dirty business (labor laws and environmental issues).

Why does America need to bail them out?  The ships are all based in countries with the most lax laws.  Let those countries bail them out.
The ships are based in those countries, the companies and employees are not.
Personally I hate the mega t ship industry (as someone who spend their 20s working for much smaller boats). But each one of those ship employ a thousand or more largely seasonal workers. For better or worse, ports of call have most of their economy dependent on the hundreds of thousands or tourists that drop in each season.

So they want the taxpayers to bail them out but don't want to pay U.S. taxes or follow U.S. laws on their ships?  Got it.
The companies can go bankrupt, the ships will still be there and up and running under new ownership in due course.  No need to bail out the current owners.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1294 on: March 25, 2020, 09:42:28 AM »
"The companies can go bankrupt, the ships will still be there and up and running under new ownership in due course.  No need to bail out the current owners."

Ditto.



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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1295 on: March 25, 2020, 09:50:51 AM »
I hope the media hammers Trump on the consistent cruise industry bail out. So transparent he is just helping his friends with a non-essential, non-american, dirty business (labor laws and environmental issues).

Why does America need to bail them out?  The ships are all based in countries with the most lax laws.  Let those countries bail them out.
The ships are based in those countries, the companies and employees are not.
Personally I hate the mega t ship industry (as someone who spend their 20s working for much smaller boats). But each one of those ship employ a thousand or more largely seasonal workers. For better or worse, ports of call have most of their economy dependent on the hundreds of thousands or tourists that drop in each season.

So they want the taxpayers to bail them out but don't want to pay U.S. taxes or follow U.S. laws on their ships?  Got it.
The companies can go bankrupt, the ships will still be there and up and running under new ownership in due course.  No need to bail out the current owners.

My question then becomes: what companies do we 'bail out'* and why?

*'Bailing out" is itself a loaded term.  What may be considered a tax-payer bail out of one sector can be seen as necessary measure to ensure the continued operation of an economically important business to another.  It's kind of like the tax code:  It's a "loophole" if you don't personally benefit, and an important "deduction/Credit" if you do.

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1296 on: March 25, 2020, 03:02:15 PM »
My question then becomes: what companies do we 'bail out'* and why?
Only such businesses that are necessary for the survival of the community.  Once "bailed out" they become wholly owned by the Government and run as an essential service with cost to end user set such that income from the business covers running costs, maintenance, and planned expansion to cope with population growth and no more.

All other business should be left to that venerated God of the Almighty Dollar known as the Free Market to either prosper or perish.  If privatising the profits is a concept of such unassailable goodness and purity when times are good then privatising the losses should be an equally unassailable concept when times are not so good.

nereo

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1297 on: March 25, 2020, 04:39:18 PM »
My question then becomes: what companies do we 'bail out'* and why?
Only such businesses that are necessary for the survival of the community.  Once "bailed out" they become wholly owned by the Government and run as an essential service with cost to end user set such that income from the business covers running costs, maintenance, and planned expansion to cope with population growth and no more.

All other business should be left to that venerated God of the Almighty Dollar known as the Free Market to either prosper or perish.  If privatising the profits is a concept of such unassailable goodness and purity when times are good then privatising the losses should be an equally unassailable concept when times are not so good.
And now weíve gone around in a circle... for some communities, the cruise ships are the overwhelming majority of their revenue.

We donít and have never had a truly ďfree marketĒ the way you have described, and thatís not a mistake. We publicly support and hinder businesses intentionally all the time

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1298 on: March 25, 2020, 07:38:59 PM »
And now weíve gone around in a circle... for some communities, the cruise ships are the overwhelming majority of their revenue.
"Majority of revenue" is not survival.  Even if you argue it is necessary for their economic survival, that also isn't a necessity for actual survival.  If cruise ships don't stop there anymore the town will die.  Many towns have died in the past and many more will do so in the future.  The people move on and survive.

Electricity, water, other essential utilities, perhaps you could argue internet in this day and age, telephone, health services, etc.  Essential services for community survival.

Cruise ships?  Not so much.  I live 6 hours from the sea and funnily enough my town survives just fine without cruise ships stopping by.
Quote from: nereo
We donít and have never had a truly ďfree marketĒ the way you have described, and thatís not a mistake. We publicly support and hinder businesses intentionally all the time
Totally agree with you.

The only part that is free about the free market is the accumulation of the profit into private hands with as little going to pay the true cost of acquiring those profits as is humanly possible.  That should end.  If those who espouse the free market philosophy actually want it, then they should be forced to take the costs as well as the profits.  Sometimes those costs mean the business goes bankrupt and so be it.

Just Joe

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Re: Trump outrage of the day
« Reply #1299 on: March 25, 2020, 09:23:12 PM »
I'm hearing (reading) some of the same GOP supporters who have blamed GM for taking bailouts in 2008 pronounce cruise ship bailouts as good and worthy... ?!?!?!