Author Topic: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy  (Read 85858 times)

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #350 on: February 11, 2016, 03:34:29 PM »
OK, I will start looking into home dentistry! Better to DIY!

enigmaT120

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #351 on: February 11, 2016, 04:39:25 PM »
OK, I will start looking into home dentistry! Better to DIY!

Whatever that stuff is that the dentists use for fillings sets up a lot faster than JB Weld. 


zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #352 on: February 11, 2016, 05:34:26 PM »
OK, I will start looking into home dentistry! Better to DIY!

Whatever that stuff is that the dentists use for fillings sets up a lot faster than JB Weld.

Thanks for the tip! I was a little nervous about putting caulk in my mouth!

Kris

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #353 on: February 11, 2016, 06:07:33 PM »
On a lighter note, I found this amusing:


lol, thanks for that

My immediate reaction, after laughing, was to think that the libertarian version of this would be a power strip that's not plugged into anything.

I think it would more likely be plug into a bike that you are peddling for power, since things are better if we do everything our selves...

But the point is that this meme mocks the drawbacks of the political stance. 

Which in the libertarian meme I proposed would be mocking the idea that libertarians think they do everything themselves, and don't notice all of the services that help them.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #354 on: February 12, 2016, 06:32:54 AM »
Kris thanks for defining what you meant!  I was curious.  So maybe it would be plugged into the system, but before the meter, so that the consumption isn't getting measured or billed.   :)

andy85

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #355 on: February 12, 2016, 08:43:38 AM »

But the point is that this meme mocks the drawbacks of the political stance. 

Which in the libertarian meme I proposed would be mocking the idea that libertarians think they do everything themselves, and don't notice all of the services that help them.
Since when do libertarians not notice this? Pretty sure libertarians dont think electricity should be free, but rather, they expect to pay market price for the service....that is if they aren't completely off the grid with solar panels :)

It's not that they don't notice the provided services, it is just that they believe the government isnt the answer to all services.

Jack

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #356 on: February 12, 2016, 09:24:08 AM »

But the point is that this meme mocks the drawbacks of the political stance. 

Which in the libertarian meme I proposed would be mocking the idea that libertarians think they do everything themselves, and don't notice all of the services that help them.
Since when do libertarians not notice this? Pretty sure libertarians dont think electricity should be free, but rather, they expect to pay market price for the service....that is if they aren't completely off the grid with solar panels :)

It's not that they don't notice the provided services, it is just that they believe the government isnt the answer to all services.

The electricity "grid" is completely and utterly incompatible with "the market." Even if you thought you wanted to deregulate the power plants themselves and let independent middlemen handle the billing, it's still subsidized. Why? Because the utility maintaining the power lines was granted (by government fiat) easement rights across everybody's property that it didn't have to pay for.

A "libertarian" solution would give the nutjob crank who owns the property up the street veto power over whether your property could get wired or not.

MoneyCat

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #357 on: February 12, 2016, 02:37:03 PM »
Haven't posted on this site for a very long time, but just wanted to comment that Bernie Sanders scares the hell out of me. His plans would probably crash our economy if they went into place. The job losses alone would be incredible. And I would lose a large portion of my income. He probably wouldn't be able to get his plans through the GOP Congress, so best case scenario would be absolutely nothing happening for four years.

Trump, on the other hand, is a sexist, racist, bigoted tyrant who doesn't understand the US Constitution or basic human rights.

It looks more and more like Sanders is going to win the Dems nomination and Trump the GOP, which leaves me with absolutely nobody to vote for.

It's all very strange to me. The new generation that appeared over the past ten years is extremist on both sides of the spectrum. You have leftists suggesting that prostitution is respectable and honorable work and that people should be paid for sitting around on their asses and get free college educations and then you have conservatives saying that all immigration has to be halted, we should have guns in schools, and all public services should be privatized for profit.

The world of normal moderate America that I once knew is now gone and probably will never return.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 02:38:40 PM by MoneyCat »

JLee

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #358 on: February 12, 2016, 02:50:10 PM »
Haven't posted on this site for a very long time, but just wanted to comment that Bernie Sanders scares the hell out of me. His plans would probably crash our economy if they went into place. The job losses alone would be incredible. And I would lose a large portion of my income. He probably wouldn't be able to get his plans through the GOP Congress, so best case scenario would be absolutely nothing happening for four years.

Trump, on the other hand, is a sexist, racist, bigoted tyrant who doesn't understand the US Constitution or basic human rights.

It looks more and more like Sanders is going to win the Dems nomination and Trump the GOP, which leaves me with absolutely nobody to vote for.

It's all very strange to me. The new generation that appeared over the past ten years is extremist on both sides of the spectrum. You have leftists suggesting that prostitution is respectable and honorable work and that people should be paid for sitting around on their asses and get free college educations and then you have conservatives saying that all immigration has to be halted, we should have guns in schools, and all public services should be privatized for profit.

The world of normal moderate America that I once knew is now gone and probably will never return.

Would it really be a whole lot?  I ran the calculator provided earlier with a $1,000,000 income and it showed a $40,000 increase in taxes...so 4% overall. A decent amount to be sure, but not the end of the world on a $1mil salary.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #359 on: February 12, 2016, 03:08:34 PM »
Haven't posted on this site for a very long time, but just wanted to comment that Bernie Sanders scares the hell out of me. His plans would probably crash our economy if they went into place. The job losses alone would be incredible. And I would lose a large portion of my income. He probably wouldn't be able to get his plans through the GOP Congress, so best case scenario would be absolutely nothing happening for four years.

Trump, on the other hand, is a sexist, racist, bigoted tyrant who doesn't understand the US Constitution or basic human rights.

It looks more and more like Sanders is going to win the Dems nomination and Trump the GOP, which leaves me with absolutely nobody to vote for.

It's all very strange to me. The new generation that appeared over the past ten years is extremist on both sides of the spectrum. You have leftists suggesting that prostitution is respectable and honorable work and that people should be paid for sitting around on their asses and get free college educations and then you have conservatives saying that all immigration has to be halted, we should have guns in schools, and all public services should be privatized for profit.

The world of normal moderate America that I once knew is now gone and probably will never return.

Would it really be a whole lot?  I ran the calculator provided earlier with a $1,000,000 income and it showed a $40,000 increase in taxes...so 4% overall. A decent amount to be sure, but not the end of the world on a $1mil salary.
Many people think that Calculator is not correct, but it doesn't matter because superdelegates. Sanders has like a 5% chance to get the nomination, and then only a 50% chance to win presidency, so a 2.5% chance of Sanders being president. Iowa and New Hampshire are 2 of the states he has always had the best support in, and thanks to superdelegates he still ended up losing both of those states.Hillary is expected to get about 700 out of about 715 superdelegates, over 400 of which already said they would vote for her

JLee

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #360 on: February 12, 2016, 03:19:36 PM »
Haven't posted on this site for a very long time, but just wanted to comment that Bernie Sanders scares the hell out of me. His plans would probably crash our economy if they went into place. The job losses alone would be incredible. And I would lose a large portion of my income. He probably wouldn't be able to get his plans through the GOP Congress, so best case scenario would be absolutely nothing happening for four years.

Trump, on the other hand, is a sexist, racist, bigoted tyrant who doesn't understand the US Constitution or basic human rights.

It looks more and more like Sanders is going to win the Dems nomination and Trump the GOP, which leaves me with absolutely nobody to vote for.

It's all very strange to me. The new generation that appeared over the past ten years is extremist on both sides of the spectrum. You have leftists suggesting that prostitution is respectable and honorable work and that people should be paid for sitting around on their asses and get free college educations and then you have conservatives saying that all immigration has to be halted, we should have guns in schools, and all public services should be privatized for profit.

The world of normal moderate America that I once knew is now gone and probably will never return.

Would it really be a whole lot?  I ran the calculator provided earlier with a $1,000,000 income and it showed a $40,000 increase in taxes...so 4% overall. A decent amount to be sure, but not the end of the world on a $1mil salary.
Many people think that Calculator is not correct, but it doesn't matter because superdelegates. Sanders has like a 5% chance to get the nomination, and then only a 50% chance to win presidency, so a 2.5% chance of Sanders being president. Iowa and New Hampshire are 2 of the states he has always had the best support in, and thanks to superdelegates he still ended up losing both of those states.Hillary is expected to get about 700 out of about 715 superdelegates, over 400 of which already said they would vote for her

If the nomination was decided entirely by superdelegates, he'd have a serious problem (though they can change their mind at any time - 400 now may not be 400 later), but there are 4,763 delegates for the Democratic party.  How do you figure he has a 5% chance?

He also did not lose NH. He won the popular vote by a landslide and the superdelegate count (assuming none change their minds later) made it a tie.

the_gastropod

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #361 on: February 12, 2016, 03:47:20 PM »
Haven't posted on this site for a very long time, but just wanted to comment that Bernie Sanders scares the hell out of me. His plans would probably crash our economy if they went into place. The job losses alone would be incredible.

How so? Do you have a source that explains this?

Quote from: MoneyCat
And I would lose a large portion of my income.

The lowest tax bracket that gets a tax bump is at $230k/year, and that's only a few percentage points. If you're pulling down that kind of cash, you should be able to retire in a couple of years, even with Bernie's modest proposed tax increase.

Quote from: MoneyCat
It's all very strange to me. The new generation that appeared over the past ten years is extremist on both sides of the spectrum. You have leftists suggesting that prostitution is respectable and honorable work and that people should be paid for sitting around on their asses and get free college educations

I'm not sure I follow the "prostitution is respectable and honorable work" claim. Are there liberal politicians stating this? Getting paid for "sitting around on their asses", I assume is referring to paying out welfare. Welfare is nothing new, nor is it extreme.

Free college? Free college is not new. The UC schools, for example, were tuition free until 1970. Today, they are still tuition-free for students whose parents earn under $60k/year. In Brazil, France, Germany, Finland, Scotland, Norway, Sweden, and many other countries, university is free for their citizens. I find it outrageous that people consider this "extreme". It's not extreme. It's a wise investment in our future.

Quote from: MoneyCat
and then you have conservatives saying that all immigration has to be halted, we should have guns in schools, and all public services should be privatized for profit.

Exactly. This is extreme. This is anti-American. These are positions no respectable international country advocates.

Quote from: MoneyCat
The world of normal moderate America that I once knew is now gone and probably will never return.

I really don't think so. Again, I do not think Bernie's positions are at all extreme. I think they are much more in line with the U.S.'s own policies prior to President Reagan.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #362 on: February 12, 2016, 04:29:56 PM »
Haven't posted on this site for a very long time, but just wanted to comment that Bernie Sanders scares the hell out of me. His plans would probably crash our economy if they went into place. The job losses alone would be incredible.

How so? Do you have a source that explains this?

Quote from: MoneyCat
And I would lose a large portion of my income.

The lowest tax bracket that gets a tax bump is at $230k/year, and that's only a few percentage points. If you're pulling down that kind of cash, you should be able to retire in a couple of years, even with Bernie's modest proposed tax increase.

Quote from: MoneyCat
It's all very strange to me. The new generation that appeared over the past ten years is extremist on both sides of the spectrum. You have leftists suggesting that prostitution is respectable and honorable work and that people should be paid for sitting around on their asses and get free college educations

I'm not sure I follow the "prostitution is respectable and honorable work" claim. Are there liberal politicians stating this? Getting paid for "sitting around on their asses", I assume is referring to paying out welfare. Welfare is nothing new, nor is it extreme.

Free college? Free college is not new. The UC schools, for example, were tuition free until 1970. Today, they are still tuition-free for students whose parents earn under $60k/year. In Brazil, France, Germany, Finland, Scotland, Norway, Sweden, and many other countries, university is free for their citizens. I find it outrageous that people consider this "extreme". It's not extreme. It's a wise investment in our future.

Quote from: MoneyCat
and then you have conservatives saying that all immigration has to be halted, we should have guns in schools, and all public services should be privatized for profit.

Exactly. This is extreme. This is anti-American. These are positions no respectable international country advocates.

Quote from: MoneyCat
The world of normal moderate America that I once knew is now gone and probably will never return.

I really don't think so. Again, I do not think Bernie's positions are at all extreme. I think they are much more in line with the U.S.'s own policies prior to President Reagan.


You ad me up until the bolded part. Reagan was a fucking god, made of solid gold, whose shit smelled of roses and unicorns. He single handedly destroyed communism and now you want it back. Whoah buddy!

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #363 on: February 12, 2016, 04:43:49 PM »
Haven't posted on this site for a very long time, but just wanted to comment that Bernie Sanders scares the hell out of me. His plans would probably crash our economy if they went into place. The job losses alone would be incredible. And I would lose a large portion of my income. He probably wouldn't be able to get his plans through the GOP Congress, so best case scenario would be absolutely nothing happening for four years.

Trump, on the other hand, is a sexist, racist, bigoted tyrant who doesn't understand the US Constitution or basic human rights.

It looks more and more like Sanders is going to win the Dems nomination and Trump the GOP, which leaves me with absolutely nobody to vote for.

It's all very strange to me. The new generation that appeared over the past ten years is extremist on both sides of the spectrum. You have leftists suggesting that prostitution is respectable and honorable work and that people should be paid for sitting around on their asses and get free college educations and then you have conservatives saying that all immigration has to be halted, we should have guns in schools, and all public services should be privatized for profit.

The world of normal moderate America that I once knew is now gone and probably will never return.

Would it really be a whole lot?  I ran the calculator provided earlier with a $1,000,000 income and it showed a $40,000 increase in taxes...so 4% overall. A decent amount to be sure, but not the end of the world on a $1mil salary.
Many people think that Calculator is not correct, but it doesn't matter because superdelegates. Sanders has like a 5% chance to get the nomination, and then only a 50% chance to win presidency, so a 2.5% chance of Sanders being president. Iowa and New Hampshire are 2 of the states he has always had the best support in, and thanks to superdelegates he still ended up losing both of those states.Hillary is expected to get about 700 out of about 715 superdelegates, over 400 of which already said they would vote for her

If the nomination was decided entirely by superdelegates, he'd have a serious problem (though they can change their mind at any time - 400 now may not be 400 later), but there are 4,763 delegates for the Democratic party.  How do you figure he has a 5% chance?

He also did not lose NH. He won the popular vote by a landslide and the superdelegate count (assuming none change their minds later) made it a tie.
NH is the state in which he was polling 2nd best out of all states and he tied it, so far they have gone to 2 states that are mainly white(he polls worse with states that have a higher percentage of minorities), and he is losing. Hillary is an establishment candidate, a large majority of superdelegates WILL support her. If Hillary get's 600 Superdelegates, she will only need 1700 regulate delegates to win the nomination, whereas Sanders will need 2900. He's currently losing, with projections to worse in almost every other state, he has a very low chance of winning the nom, I'd say about a 5% chance.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #364 on: February 12, 2016, 04:46:09 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #365 on: February 12, 2016, 04:53:34 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

I think there is scant chance of that. I have no doubt that Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary if she got the nomination.

JLee

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #366 on: February 12, 2016, 04:54:22 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

That's one thing the Democratic party will have to realize - if Bernie wins the popular vote but loses the nomination, they basically have no chance of winning since over half of their voter base are going to want to vote for Bernie.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #367 on: February 12, 2016, 04:55:42 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.
If I was a Bernie supporter, I would be against him running as a 3rd party candidate if he loses the nom, as that would make it where he wouldn't be able to run as a dem in 4 years, although he might be too old in 4 years anyhow. I'm not saying I'm happy that Sanders is going to lose the nom, I'm just saying he is going to. I'm supporting gary johnson anyways so it doesn't really matter, but I would vote for Rubio, Kasich, or Bush if they got the nom regardless of if they were against Sanders or Clinton

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #368 on: February 12, 2016, 05:00:45 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.
If I was a Bernie supporter, I would be against him running as a 3rd party candidate if he loses the nom, as that would make it where he wouldn't be able to run as a dem in 4 years, although he might be too old in 4 years anyhow. I'm not saying I'm happy that Sanders is going to lose the nom, I'm just saying he is going to. I'm supporting gary johnson anyways so it doesn't really matter, but I would vote for Rubio, Kasich, or Bush if they got the nom regardless of if they were against Sanders or Clinton

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/superdelegates-might-not-save-hillary-clinton/


It wouldn't be the first time it happened.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #369 on: February 12, 2016, 05:01:32 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

I think there is scant chance of that. I have no doubt that Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary if she got the nomination.

I agree with JLee on this one. If he gets the popular but loses the nom due to superdelagates then the dems will lose, due to a total lack of faith in the system.

beltim

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #370 on: February 12, 2016, 05:02:29 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.
If I was a Bernie supporter, I would be against him running as a 3rd party candidate if he loses the nom, as that would make it where he wouldn't be able to run as a dem in 4 years, although he might be too old in 4 years anyhow. I'm not saying I'm happy that Sanders is going to lose the nom, I'm just saying he is going to. I'm supporting gary johnson anyways so it doesn't really matter, but I would vote for Rubio, Kasich, or Bush if they got the nom regardless of if they were against Sanders or Clinton

It's way too early to claim the super delegates for Clinton. She had a similar lead among super delegates at this point 8 years ago and wound up not only losing the nomination, but also lost among superdelegates.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #371 on: February 12, 2016, 05:07:56 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

I think there is scant chance of that. I have no doubt that Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary if she got the nomination.

I agree with JLee on this one. If he gets the popular but loses the nom due to superdelagates then the dems will lose, due to a total lack of faith in the system.

I could see this thought process: "Bernie Sanders wants to reform the broken/rigged/paid-for political structure in American politics.  He wins the popular vote by a landslide, but loses the party nomination due to pre-arranged superdelegate votes...foiled by the system he is trying to fix. Vote Bernie Sanders to teach the Democratic party that they cannot tell us who we want for our President."

And then there's a split party vote, causing a massive Republican victory, which is another thing that the Democratic party does not want.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #372 on: February 12, 2016, 05:14:33 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

I think there is scant chance of that. I have no doubt that Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary if she got the nomination.

I agree with JLee on this one. If he gets the popular but loses the nom due to superdelagates then the dems will lose, due to a total lack of faith in the system.

Possibly. But that is not different from what I was saying. I said Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary. And I do think that is true. I said nothing about whether all of his supporters would follow him. I have no idea about that one way or another.

JLee

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #373 on: February 12, 2016, 05:17:23 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

I think there is scant chance of that. I have no doubt that Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary if she got the nomination.

I agree with JLee on this one. If he gets the popular but loses the nom due to superdelagates then the dems will lose, due to a total lack of faith in the system.

Possibly. But that is not different from what I was saying. I said Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary. And I do think that is true. I said nothing about whether all of his supporters would follow him. I have no idea about that one way or another.

It would be pretty nifty if he ended up running Independent and winning...that'd be a refreshing first in a country dominated by a two-party system.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #374 on: February 12, 2016, 05:21:23 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.
If I was a Bernie supporter, I would be against him running as a 3rd party candidate if he loses the nom, as that would make it where he wouldn't be able to run as a dem in 4 years, although he might be too old in 4 years anyhow. I'm not saying I'm happy that Sanders is going to lose the nom, I'm just saying he is going to. I'm supporting gary johnson anyways so it doesn't really matter, but I would vote for Rubio, Kasich, or Bush if they got the nom regardless of if they were against Sanders or Clinton

It's way too early to claim the super delegates for Clinton. She had a similar lead among super delegates at this point 8 years ago and wound up not only losing the nomination, but also lost among superdelegates.
a similar lead? BAH that's funny, it is not even close to the similar. Most superdelegates were undecided, and as the race went on many of them decided on Obama, a small percentage changed their vote. Currently there are over 400 that said they were voting Clinton, and less than 1/20th of that said they will vote for Sanders. As someone who has spent far too much time dealing with statistics, I can tell you that all of the statistics say Sanders chances are very slim.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #375 on: February 12, 2016, 05:23:35 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

I think there is scant chance of that. I have no doubt that Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary if she got the nomination.

I agree with JLee on this one. If he gets the popular but loses the nom due to superdelagates then the dems will lose, due to a total lack of faith in the system.

Possibly. But that is not different from what I was saying. I said Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary. And I do think that is true. I said nothing about whether all of his supporters would follow him. I have no idea about that one way or another.

It would be pretty nifty if he ended up running Independent and winning...that'd be a refreshing first in a country dominated by a two-party system.
there is no chance this will happen, not only because he would be splitting votes with hillary, but also because a lot of the people in the electoral college are establishment as well, and although they are supposed to vote the way their constituents vote, they don't have to.

beltim

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #376 on: February 12, 2016, 07:09:14 PM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.
If I was a Bernie supporter, I would be against him running as a 3rd party candidate if he loses the nom, as that would make it where he wouldn't be able to run as a dem in 4 years, although he might be too old in 4 years anyhow. I'm not saying I'm happy that Sanders is going to lose the nom, I'm just saying he is going to. I'm supporting gary johnson anyways so it doesn't really matter, but I would vote for Rubio, Kasich, or Bush if they got the nom regardless of if they were against Sanders or Clinton

It's way too early to claim the super delegates for Clinton. She had a similar lead among super delegates at this point 8 years ago and wound up not only losing the nomination, but also lost among superdelegates.
a similar lead? BAH that's funny, it is not even close to the similar. Most superdelegates were undecided, and as the race went on many of them decided on Obama, a small percentage changed their vote. Currently there are over 400 that said they were voting Clinton, and less than 1/20th of that said they will vote for Sanders. As someone who has spent far too much time dealing with statistics, I can tell you that all of the statistics say Sanders chances are very slim.

Clinton has about 350 superdelegates now compared to ~250 8 years ago.

Your appeal to authority fails.

MrStash2000

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #377 on: February 12, 2016, 07:59:11 PM »
Bernie Sanders is more communist than socialist. He tries to pass it off as European Socialism but it is NOT like that. Northern European countries are socialist but also identify as Capitalist.

Remember, Bernie has NEVER been a member of the Democratic Party. The only party he has been a member of was Liberty Union. Liberty Unions main ideology focuses onbeing anti-capitalism. Look it up if you'd like, it is true. Bernie is basically communism lite not a socialist.


Jack

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #378 on: February 12, 2016, 09:56:47 PM »
Again, I do not think Bernie's positions are at all extreme. I think they are much more in line with the U.S.'s own policies prior to President Reagan.

This bears repeating -- over and over again until people can get it through their thick skulls -- because it's true.

Bernie is a moderate, with policies that would have looked familiar to every President between FDR and Nixon. It is only in the context of neoconservative extremists that Bernie appears extreme.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #379 on: February 13, 2016, 02:54:34 AM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.
If I was a Bernie supporter, I would be against him running as a 3rd party candidate if he loses the nom, as that would make it where he wouldn't be able to run as a dem in 4 years, although he might be too old in 4 years anyhow. I'm not saying I'm happy that Sanders is going to lose the nom, I'm just saying he is going to. I'm supporting gary johnson anyways so it doesn't really matter, but I would vote for Rubio, Kasich, or Bush if they got the nom regardless of if they were against Sanders or Clinton

It's way too early to claim the super delegates for Clinton. She had a similar lead among super delegates at this point 8 years ago and wound up not only losing the nomination, but also lost among superdelegates.
a similar lead? BAH that's funny, it is not even close to the similar. Most superdelegates were undecided, and as the race went on many of them decided on Obama, a small percentage changed their vote. Currently there are over 400 that said they were voting Clinton, and less than 1/20th of that said they will vote for Sanders. As someone who has spent far too much time dealing with statistics, I can tell you that all of the statistics say Sanders chances are very slim.

Clinton has about 350 superdelegates now compared to ~250 8 years ago.

Your appeal to authority fails.
And how many does Sanders have compared to how many Obama had?

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #380 on: February 13, 2016, 02:57:27 AM »
Again, I do not think Bernie's positions are at all extreme. I think they are much more in line with the U.S.'s own policies prior to President Reagan.

This bears repeating -- over and over again until people can get it through their thick skulls -- because it's true.

Bernie is a moderate, with policies that would have looked familiar to every President between FDR and Nixon. It is only in the context of neoconservative extremists that Bernie appears extreme.
He is a socialist in a country that is considered capitalist, and that makes him extreme, if Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were alive they would call him absolutely mad

Jack

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #381 on: February 13, 2016, 07:41:24 AM »
Again, I do not think Bernie's positions are at all extreme. I think they are much more in line with the U.S.'s own policies prior to President Reagan.

This bears repeating -- over and over again until people can get it through their thick skulls -- because it's true.

Bernie is a moderate, with policies that would have looked familiar to every President between FDR and Nixon. It is only in the context of neoconservative extremists that Bernie appears extreme.
He is a socialist in a country that is considered capitalist, and that makes him extreme, if Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were alive they would call him absolutely mad

I could call myself a teapot, but that doesn't make me one. Labels are irrelevant, especially when they're used as a replacement for critical thinking.

Besides, Jefferson and Madison would call every mainstream candidate absolutely mad for supporting things like the 17th Amendment and the expansion of the Commerce Clause.

the_gastropod

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #382 on: February 13, 2016, 07:49:55 AM »
He is a socialist in a country that is considered capitalist, and that makes him extreme, if Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were alive they would call him absolutely mad

Socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive.

I'm from Virginia, and consequently a tremendous fan of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. It's interesting you chose these gentlemen for your appeal to authority, considering Thomas Jefferson is the man responsible for publicly funded education. That is a form of socialism.

Regardless, as Jack mentioned, it would be unsurprising if these 18th century men did have differences of opinion about how the US is run today. They would likely find our lack of slaves surprising. The automobile would be shocking. Computers used to argue with strangers across the country? Madness! Jefferson may have said it best: "The Earth belongs, in usufruct, to the living".

« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 07:53:58 AM by the_gastropod »

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #383 on: February 13, 2016, 11:06:28 AM »
In that case I would hope Bernie would be a 3rd party candidate. So now establishment politicians get to choose who our candidate is for us? Fuck that. I will gladly vote for Bernie as a 3rd party, and if that cause a split dem vote and it goes to Trump I will welcome our new overlord.

I think there is scant chance of that. I have no doubt that Bernie would immediately throw his support behind Hillary if she got the nomination.

I agree with JLee on this one. If he gets the popular but loses the nom due to superdelagates then the dems will lose, due to a total lack of faith in the system.

I could see this thought process: "Bernie Sanders wants to reform the broken/rigged/paid-for political structure in American politics.  He wins the popular vote by a landslide, but loses the party nomination due to pre-arranged superdelegate votes...foiled by the system he is trying to fix. Vote Bernie Sanders to teach the Democratic party that they cannot tell us who we want for our President."

And then there's a split party vote, causing a massive Republican victory, which is another thing that the Democratic party does not want.

The same principle applies to the Republican field as well. If (God forbid) Trump or Cruz wins the nomination, and the establishment does an about-face to conscript someone more favorable to them, the Republican party risks becoming fractured and/or irrelevant. The loss of faith in the party would doom it to failure. Wouldn't it be interesting to have 2 "establishment" candidates, one from each party, running against 2 "outsiders", one from each party, in a 4-way clusterfuck race? *gets out the popcorn*

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #384 on: February 13, 2016, 11:33:49 AM »
He is a socialist in a country that is considered capitalist, and that makes him extreme, if Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were alive they would call him absolutely mad

Socialism and capitalism are not mutually exclusive.

I'm from Virginia, and consequently a tremendous fan of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. It's interesting you chose these gentlemen for your appeal to authority, considering Thomas Jefferson is the man responsible for publicly funded education. That is a form of socialism.

Regardless, as Jack mentioned, it would be unsurprising if these 18th century men did have differences of opinion about how the US is run today. They would likely find our lack of slaves surprising. The automobile would be shocking. Computers used to argue with strangers across the country? Madness! Jefferson may have said it best: "The Earth belongs, in usufruct, to the living".
People can bring up presidents from fdr to Reagan but I can't bring up 2 of the most prominent founding fathers? One of which being the father of the Constitution, the document most look to, to see if their policies are constitutional. I was talking about their agrarianism, dislike for big government or debt, dislike for higher taxes, dislike for extreme socialist programs, etc. I think Jefferson said it best when he said, "that government is best which governs the least, because it's people discipline themselves." Or when he said "a government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have."

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #385 on: February 13, 2016, 11:45:35 AM »

He is a socialist in a country that is considered capitalist, and that makes him extreme, if Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were alive they would call him absolutely mad

Jefferson and Madison maintained their lifestyles by owning hundreds of slaves, too.

The world is a different place now.  It is okay to apply modern values to the modern world. 

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #386 on: February 13, 2016, 04:07:33 PM »

He is a socialist in a country that is considered capitalist, and that makes him extreme, if Thomas Jefferson or James Madison were alive they would call him absolutely mad

Jefferson and Madison maintained their lifestyles by owning hundreds of slaves, too.

The world is a different place now.  It is okay to apply modern values to the modern world.
FDR had to deal with the great depression and WW2,
The world is a different place now.

scottish

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #387 on: February 13, 2016, 05:35:29 PM »
this
Quote
Bernie is a moderate, with policies that would have looked familiar to every President between FDR and Nixon. It is only in the context of neoconservative extremists that Bernie appears extreme.
The US is the only G8 country that would consider Bernie a left wing extremist.   up here he would be slightly left of center.

Health care in the US kills me.   The wealthiest country in the world, and poor people can't get health care.   I'm constantly amazed at how so much of the US thinks that public health care is evil.

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #388 on: February 13, 2016, 05:47:49 PM »

I could see this thought process: "Bernie Sanders wants to reform the broken/rigged/paid-for political structure in American politics.  He wins the popular vote by a landslide, but loses the party nomination due to pre-arranged superdelegate votes...foiled by the system he is trying to fix. Vote Bernie Sanders to teach the Democratic party that they cannot tell us who we want for our President."

And then there's a split party vote, causing a massive Republican victory, which is another thing that the Democratic party does not want.

Exactly why Im voting Sanders or Trump regardless. I don't care if I have to write them in. Im tired of the lockstep mickey mouse crap our politicians have been doing. Obama: "Im going to pull out of the middle east." Later-- "We are using a South Korea model." That is code for screw your infrastructure, your health care, and all of your needs. We are going to spend your money showing the world we have a big penis while failing to spend money to protect us from the Chinese copying our penis. In fact, give us more money so we can still show China we have a bigger penis. Meanwhile mainstreet says: "you know we are on the verge of rioting right? Quit taking our shit from us to build a bigger penis to screw us all with."

scottish

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #389 on: February 13, 2016, 06:03:43 PM »
What does your ah male member have to do with anything?

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #390 on: February 13, 2016, 06:16:59 PM »
the penis is a metaphor for military occupation sir. We spend way too much on that crap and not enough on our own people. We need new pipes, new bridges, new power grids, and universal healthcare. The terrorist have done their job well. We have spent our money returning terror and greatly diminished the average living standard doing it while bringing home broken vets that we don't take care of on a state or federal level. If someone loses a leg fighting for some agenda of a fat politician that gets a life time retirement for a couple years of service--- they deserve the best prosthetic money can buy, the best counseling money can buy, the best health care money can buy now that they are no longer eligible for service thus getting screwed out of their retirement and now can't work while having a stay at home wife. It happens. It shouldn't but it happens.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 06:20:02 PM by mrpercentage »

MrStash2000

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #391 on: February 13, 2016, 09:35:19 PM »
Trump killed it tonight IMOP. He is moving to the center now that he has this.

I love that Donald doesnt get hung up about Reagan. Reagan is dead. Conservatism has failed to deliver prosperity to the blue collar worker. Trump understands the failures of "free trade".

Oh and of course the greatness that Bush lied... Didn't keep us safe during 9-11. And it was stupidest decision ever to invade middle east.
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 09:39:22 PM by clarkevii »

coolistdude

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #392 on: February 17, 2016, 09:15:54 PM »
Trump killed it tonight IMOP. He is moving to the center now that he has this.

I love that Donald doesnt get hung up about Reagan. Reagan is dead. Conservatism has failed to deliver prosperity to the blue collar worker. Trump understands the failures of "free trade".

Oh and of course the greatness that Bush lied... Didn't keep us safe during 9-11. And it was stupidest decision ever to invade middle east.

I watched the first half of the debate. Why was he the only guy with enough balls to state that WMD was a fib, and the Iraq war was a total mistake? The debate then proceeded with talking about how we need to find another war to start and Jeb Bush can sometimes decide if he is for or against failed wars. I like that Trump actually says the obvious even if I don't agree with his future plans.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #393 on: February 21, 2016, 12:08:49 PM »

The US is the only G8 country that would consider Bernie a left wing extremist.   up here he would be slightly left of center.

Putting things on a single spectrum is very problematic.  In some ways I find Canada to be very conservative relative to the US and in other ways Canada is very progressive or liberal. What seems familiar and sensible to one country appears extreme to the other.  On issues like gay marriage and abortion Canada has been much more accepting in recent decades.  Meanwhile, I find the state-sanctioned oligopolies (e.g. banks, telecoms) here in Canada to be surprisingly anti free-trade and closer to where the US was in the 1970s.  Canadians overwhelmingly support single-payer health care, while they are far less accepting of 'disruptive' businesses like Uber and Airbnb.  People in the US seem to be far more skeptical of their federal government.
So.... conservative/liberal... it's not really that straightforward.

Quote
Health care in the US kills me.   The wealthiest country in the world, and poor people can't get health care.   I'm constantly amazed at how so much of the US thinks that public health care is evil.

One interesting thing I've noticed having lived in both countries nad having had health-care in both countries: Both countries have an overwhelmingly negative opinion about the other country's health-care system.  I don't think the US health care system would work well in Canada, and I don't think the Canadian health care system would work well in the US.  Furthermore, I think both health care systems have some really crucial weak spots that they need to address.