Author Topic: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy  (Read 85873 times)

the_gastropod

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2016, 11:40:49 AM »
Never said it was not necessary, I just said pay MORE in taxes.

So only paying MORE taxes than right now is it an evil act of violence to collect your taxes? What if you were working before Ronald Reagan was president? Then it would be acceptable? Please state your point...

Quote from: Killerbrandt
Also, by you saying they pay taxes in Sales, ect.., then why is it fair to only tax the "rich" federal income tax and all those other taxes as well?

Again. Do you understand how marginal taxes work? These 47% don't earn enough to hit the first tax bracket. The rich don't pay taxes on their first ~$13,000 either. You do get this, yes?

Quote from: Killerbrandt
Also you do know the 1 percent is fluid, it changes all the time, so maybe tomorrow you figure out an invention and move up to the one percent, are you now immoral and evil just because you suddenly gained a lot of money? What if all that money gained is invested in the market or going towards new research? which most likely it is, so its already creating more jobs and new businesses. Why is it so immoral to earn money? and moral to force it from people's pockets?

1. Not as often as you might think. The U.S. has pretty high intergenerational income elasticity. In the U.S., your parents' income determines ~40% of your income. That is massive, especially when compared to the traditionally socialist countries people like to mock.
2. Nobody is demonizing the top 1%! This is a straw man. It is you who seem to think that we only raise taxes on those we hate. It is not immoral to earn more. Paying 4% more than the current rate is NOT confiscatory—it's 4%! Please answer my question: what is your point? Where do you draw the line between what amount of taxation is acceptable, and what amount becomes "forcing it from people's pockets"?

Killerbrandt

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #101 on: February 05, 2016, 11:49:30 AM »
Quote
Also, by you saying they pay taxes in Sales, ect.., then why is it fair to only tax the "rich" federal income tax and all those other taxes as well? Also you do know the 1 percent is fluid, it changes all the time, so maybe tomorrow you figure out an invention and move up to the one percent, are you now immoral and evil just because you suddenly gained a lot of money? What if all that money gained is invested in the market or going towards new research? which most likely it is, so its already creating more jobs and new businesses. Why is it so immoral to earn money? and moral to force it from people's pockets?

Putting aside morality for a moment, can you point me to a society where the government didn't use force to exact taxation?

Exactly my point! So you force even more from people and that is moral?

onlykelsey

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #102 on: February 05, 2016, 11:51:54 AM »
Quote
Exactly my point! So you force even more from people and that is moral?

Sorry, I'm not following.  I'm asking for an example of how else human society could work, if we didn't have taxation and a government that can extract resources from its citizens.

aFrugalFather

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #103 on: February 05, 2016, 11:55:36 AM »
Why can't we teach individuals to become more responsible instead?

How would you propose to do that?

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #104 on: February 05, 2016, 11:59:45 AM »
are we really having a "taxation is forced theft here"?

The argument seems a bit flimsy given that the taxpayer has a lot of control over how much he/she pays in taxes.  Tax-advantaged accounts, charitable donations, even the choice of income.  If the government just decided to charge everyone a set amount regardless of circumstances that argument would hold more water.

Also - this whole argument that assumes we have no say in the tax code.  In survey after survey and election after election we collectively keep saying that we want to keep our public services.  No one seems to agree with anyone about the particular level such-and-such a program should be funded, but we keep voting for the very people who keep taxing us.

Killerbrandt

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2016, 12:07:19 PM »
Never said it was not necessary, I just said pay MORE in taxes.

So only paying MORE taxes than right now is it an evil act of violence to collect your taxes? What if you were working before Ronald Reagan was president? Then it would be acceptable? Please state your point...

Quote from: Killerbrandt
Also, by you saying they pay taxes in Sales, ect.., then why is it fair to only tax the "rich" federal income tax and all those other taxes as well?

Again. Do you understand how marginal taxes work? These 47% don't earn enough to hit the first tax bracket. The rich don't pay taxes on their first ~$13,000 either. You do get this, yes?

Quote from: Killerbrandt
Also you do know the 1 percent is fluid, it changes all the time, so maybe tomorrow you figure out an invention and move up to the one percent, are you now immoral and evil just because you suddenly gained a lot of money? What if all that money gained is invested in the market or going towards new research? which most likely it is, so its already creating more jobs and new businesses. Why is it so immoral to earn money? and moral to force it from people's pockets?

1. Not as often as you might think. The U.S. has pretty high intergenerational income elasticity. In the U.S., your parents' income determines ~40% of your income. That is massive, especially when compared to the traditionally socialist countries people like to mock.
2. Nobody is demonizing the top 1%! This is a straw man. It is you who seem to think that we only raise taxes on those we hate. It is not immoral to earn more. Paying 4% more than the current rate is NOT confiscatory—it's 4%! Please answer my question: what is your point? Where do you draw the line between what amount of taxation is acceptable, and what amount becomes "forcing it from people's pockets"?

If you are not demonizing the 1 percent, then why do you care how much they make? You should not give a damn to what they use their money on and if you knew anything about the market, then you would know their money is going back into society and creating jobs. How else does it earn interest? That money is funding corporations and businesses to grow and expand.

Yeah I know how marginal tax works, so you think its fair that some put no skin in the game, while other put a ton into the system and you want to take even more?

I believe we are paying enough! we could easily cut costs to balance the budget and not have to force more from people.

MrStash2000

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2016, 12:08:34 PM »
I see this thread has blown up.

I have a couple serious questions to the MMM Sanders supporters on here....

1. Do you really think Wall Street is a complete fraud?

2. Do you really think "the game is rigged" against people achieving the American Dream?

Both questions are using Sanders own words and I in no way agree with his statement. I am trying to see how you rationalize this while you know that they are false since you are on this site and know about low cost index funds and how to build wealth by living within your means.
 

onlykelsey

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2016, 12:17:37 PM »
Not a Sanders supporter, but I'll bite:

1.  No.  But I do think it is given an inexcusably light treatment in the criminal justice system.  If anything I think it may be over or inefficiently regulated, but the individual decision makers have socialized the effects of their bad choices over and over and made the rest of us pay the price (while escaping with a criminal slap on the wrist, if anything, and a small fee).  I'm more with Clinton or Kasich on Wall Street, but I don't think he's crazy, and I do think he's tapping a widely held sentiment.

2.  Yes. Your race and parents' class are very big predictors of your success, and more powerful now than they have been before. You say " I am trying to see how you rationalize this while you know that they are false since you are on this site and know about low cost index funds and how to build wealth by living within your means."  I truly think this is beyond many peoples' abilities.  Intelligent people raised to have self-control, no.  But that's not all of us, and it never will be.  I don't think all members of a society need to have an equivalent standard of living, but I am okay with my ~30% effective income tax rate to equalize things out.

I don't think you can make #2 a moral matter, really.  There is pretty widely accepted empirical research on what social spending does and does not produce efficient results.  People disagree on, for example, whether the efficient capital gains rate is 20 or 30, but no research indicates that having it at 0 or 90 produces efficient outcomes. 

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2016, 12:19:50 PM »
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

onlykelsey

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2016, 12:22:42 PM »
Quote
I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

Agreed. I've lived medium- and long-term in Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Russia, and even in Russia I think the bottom 50% of the population got better care than our bottom 50%.  There are other trade offs, and liberals claiming we should just copy Sweden's policies without taking into account huge differences drive me up a wall, but American infrastructure and medicine is decades behind everywhere I've lived in northern Europe.  I was embarrassed.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #110 on: February 05, 2016, 12:27:09 PM »
In France I went for an infection in my foot and the doctor asked me about sleeping habits, eating habits and other things that affect my health. Imagine that, a doctor that cares about overall health instead of just pushing drugs!

ncornilsen

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #111 on: February 05, 2016, 12:27:14 PM »
Tell me how they are last generation GOP? Liberals still want to tax us a ton (same as when taxes went up to 90 percent)

No, less than when taxes were 90 percent -- which, by the way, was during the Eisenhower (Republican) administration. They started getting lowered during Kennedy's (Democrat) term.

(And don't you dare claim you object to them being raised to pay for WWII, Mr. DoD Analyst! The point is, Eisenhower is the one who kept them high during relative peacetime -- Korea and Vietnam were vastly cheaper than WWII.)

This is a really lame argument.  A marginal rate of 90% back then would be nowhere near as extractive as a rate half that would be now. Go look at tax revenue versus GDP, and at effective tax rates, for those periods. A move back to those marginal rates without the truck sized loopholes and deductions that went with them WOULD be disastrous.

Jack

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #112 on: February 05, 2016, 12:30:31 PM »
I have a couple serious questions to the MMM Sanders supporters on here....

1. Do you really think Wall Street is a complete fraud?

2. Do you really think "the game is rigged" against people achieving the American Dream?

Both questions are using Sanders own words and I in no way agree with his statement. I am trying to see how you rationalize this while you know that they are false since you are on this site and know about low cost index funds and how to build wealth by living within your means.

1. No, the fraud is only partial. It does not lie within stuff like stock trading and mutual funds; it lies within opaque, complicated stuff like credit default swaps, collateralized debt obligations, etc.

2. Yes, at least a little. If nothing else, the fact that "financial advisers" do not have a fiduciary duty to their clients is an example of said rigging.

That is not to say Sanders isn't exaggerating; of course he is! But that I can rationalize by understanding the difference between rhetoric and policy.

Sanders' rhetoric (e.g. calling himself a "socialist" when most of his positions are moderate, as well as the bits you mentioned) is what I like least about him. But I'd certainly rather tolerate bad rhetoric than bad policy, and all the other candidates' policies tend to be some combination of totalitarian, Dominionist, shortsighted or downright insane.

A move back to those marginal rates without the truck sized loopholes and deductions that went with them WOULD be disastrous.

Well if that's the case, then it's a good thing no candidate -- not even Sanders -- has proposed such a thing!

JLee

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #113 on: February 05, 2016, 12:39:18 PM »
Bernies biggest obstacle is that many Americans think they are soon to be billionaires and he will steal their money...realistically the majority will benefit from his policies.

People mock the democratic socialist countries he cites often....they could teach America a lot.....http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/27/464586586/what-were-the-least-and-most-corrupt-countries-in-2015

As for Trump, he'll probably deport me.

So because the majority will benefit from his policies, it's justifiable to take money from the minority and give out free shit for everyone?

The majority in the US supported slavery too.

Our political system is supposed to protect against "tyranny of the majority" aka mob rule

I am with you Armueller!

The Majority wouldn't even benefit from Sanders policies. It would for a fact affect everyone's personal finances by lowering take home pay, destroy the stock market, give lower quality medical services to all, lower individual freedoms, decrease the overall economy, punish people that want to become innovative, punish small business, ect. Why can't we teach individuals to become more responsible instead? instead of taxing us to death and trying to copy other countries that have proven that socialism is a failed system. All those examples of Norway and Denmark are completely false. They only point out a few positives, but even those are false! Free educations? that is a lie! Most have to test to even get into college, you can't just jump into any degree you want. Medical? Yeah majority are put on waiting lists or go to other countries for medical care. Also, their economies are crashing! That is why there have been recent trends in those countries voting conservative parties and HUGE decreases in social programs. These countries are going dirt broke trying to provide for all. Did any of you watch the prime minister of Denmark recently? He told Sanders to stop using them as an example, they are and have been moving away from the old socialist way for years now. In addition, most those countries have no military at all! There is no way we could drop our military to their levels and not be threatened to death by Russia, China and many other nations that would take advantage of that weakness in a heartbeat. Just a few months ago one of the Scandinavian countries couldn't even find a Russian sub in their harbor, after a few days they called the USA, which found it in less than an hour and forced them to leave. How pathetic is that? Why do we want to keep trying to be like other countries?

Quick blerp, back when my family was living in Okinawa on Kadena AFB, the base and the Japanese government got news from Russia that if the USA ever left Okinawa, Russia would claim it right way. This threat was given when the USA was thinking about closing the base or reorganizing its structure. These are real threats in the world, we don't live in a world of just hugs, so no lowering the military budget like some have said before, would be a huge mistake, just so we could for a short time cover people for mediocre medical care and schooling.
You should use your skills as a prophet to benefit yourself in the stock market.

Incidentally, the US spends more per capita on health care than any other country - and on top of that, our quality of care lags behind.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective

Quote from: Killerbrandt
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

Your post sounds like it comes from someone who thinks the USA is the omg best thing everrr and wouldn't even dream of considering that other countries may have figured out how to do something better than us.   How much time have you spent in countries outside the US?

cheapass

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #114 on: February 05, 2016, 12:44:21 PM »
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

There are tradeoffs however. Good luck saving enough money to become wealthy and retire early with their confiscatory tax rates. I'd rather have more money in my pocket and be able to choose how to spend it - on medical care, on charity, on plastic flamingoes, or on mutual fund shares, whatever.

JLee

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #115 on: February 05, 2016, 12:49:13 PM »
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

There are tradeoffs however. Good luck saving enough money to become wealthy and retire early with their confiscatory tax rates. I'd rather have more money in my pocket and be able to choose how to spend it - on medical care, on charity, on plastic flamingoes, or on mutual fund shares, whatever.

See the link I just posted. France spends less per capita (less than half) on health care than the US does. They have superior health care for less money overall, so in theory if this could be replicated the US would actually save money.

Killerbrandt

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #116 on: February 05, 2016, 12:54:01 PM »
Bernies biggest obstacle is that many Americans think they are soon to be billionaires and he will steal their money...realistically the majority will benefit from his policies.

People mock the democratic socialist countries he cites often....they could teach America a lot.....http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/01/27/464586586/what-were-the-least-and-most-corrupt-countries-in-2015

As for Trump, he'll probably deport me.

So because the majority will benefit from his policies, it's justifiable to take money from the minority and give out free shit for everyone?

The majority in the US supported slavery too.

Our political system is supposed to protect against "tyranny of the majority" aka mob rule

I am with you Armueller!

The Majority wouldn't even benefit from Sanders policies. It would for a fact affect everyone's personal finances by lowering take home pay, destroy the stock market, give lower quality medical services to all, lower individual freedoms, decrease the overall economy, punish people that want to become innovative, punish small business, ect. Why can't we teach individuals to become more responsible instead? instead of taxing us to death and trying to copy other countries that have proven that socialism is a failed system. All those examples of Norway and Denmark are completely false. They only point out a few positives, but even those are false! Free educations? that is a lie! Most have to test to even get into college, you can't just jump into any degree you want. Medical? Yeah majority are put on waiting lists or go to other countries for medical care. Also, their economies are crashing! That is why there have been recent trends in those countries voting conservative parties and HUGE decreases in social programs. These countries are going dirt broke trying to provide for all. Did any of you watch the prime minister of Denmark recently? He told Sanders to stop using them as an example, they are and have been moving away from the old socialist way for years now. In addition, most those countries have no military at all! There is no way we could drop our military to their levels and not be threatened to death by Russia, China and many other nations that would take advantage of that weakness in a heartbeat. Just a few months ago one of the Scandinavian countries couldn't even find a Russian sub in their harbor, after a few days they called the USA, which found it in less than an hour and forced them to leave. How pathetic is that? Why do we want to keep trying to be like other countries?

Quick blerp, back when my family was living in Okinawa on Kadena AFB, the base and the Japanese government got news from Russia that if the USA ever left Okinawa, Russia would claim it right way. This threat was given when the USA was thinking about closing the base or reorganizing its structure. These are real threats in the world, we don't live in a world of just hugs, so no lowering the military budget like some have said before, would be a huge mistake, just so we could for a short time cover people for mediocre medical care and schooling.
You should use your skills as a prophet to benefit yourself in the stock market.

Incidentally, the US spends more per capita on health care than any other country - and on top of that, our quality of care lags behind.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective

Quote from: Killerbrandt
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

Your post sounds like it comes from someone who thinks the USA is the omg best thing everrr and wouldn't even dream of considering that other countries may have figured out how to do something better than us.   How much time have you spent in countries outside the US?

So with your logic since we already spend more on health and we spend more on students than any other nation, we should throw more money at the problem? Yeah that will work!!!

Oh sorry that I do love this country! Half my life has been outside this country and not a moment would I want to leave it permanently for another country. Yes, other nations are beautiful and have amazing cultures, but nothing matches the USA! We are very unique in how we function and for centuries it has worked fine, but now we need to copy Europe with socialism? Also, what is working in those nations? Healthcare? They are ALL are going broke (more so than us)!! Military? They have almost none and ask us all the time for help! Schooling? We still have some of the best Universities in the world. Economy? We dominate compared to anyone else. Yeah we have our flaws, but for the most part, those flaws are my responsibly and if I care so, I can help my fellow man, out with being told to.

Killerbrandt

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #117 on: February 05, 2016, 12:55:06 PM »
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

There are tradeoffs however. Good luck saving enough money to become wealthy and retire early with their confiscatory tax rates. I'd rather have more money in my pocket and be able to choose how to spend it - on medical care, on charity, on plastic flamingoes, or on mutual fund shares, whatever.

^^^^THIS!

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #118 on: February 05, 2016, 12:59:55 PM »
Last year there were approximately 380,000 bankruptcies due to healthcare costs last year in the US.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2016, 01:02:18 PM »
"The American Journal of Medicine reports that even well educated, middle class home owners are subject to overwhelming medical bills. People are forced to get a second mortgage on their home to pay their medical bills. Another problem is that because of medical bills, people are using credit cards to pay for day to day expenses such as groceries and gas. Doing so places individuals and families more and more in debt."

http://thelawdictionary.org/article/how-many-americans-go-bankrupt-due-to-medical-purposes-each-year/

So in the US you have more chance to become wealthy, retire early, etc, unless you have unforeseen medical costs I guess.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2016, 01:06:23 PM »
Last year there were approximately 380,000 bankruptcies due to healthcare costs last year in the US.

Those were the poors.  They don't count, because they obviously weren't trying hard enough.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2016, 01:08:34 PM »
More interesting statistics:

"Administrative costs in the United States consumed an estimated $156 billion in 2007, with projections to reach $315 billion by 2018 (Collins et al., 2009). With the time, costs, and personnel necessary to process billing and insurance-related (BIR) activities from contracting to payment validation on the provider side and the needs of payers to process claims and credential providers, significant redundancy and inefficiency arises from healthcare administration. Adding to concerns is emerging evidence of an inverse relationship between administrative complexity and quality of care (Himmelstein and Woolhandler, 2002)."

Emphasis mine. Reduce administrative costs due to insurance and billing through a single payer system and care goes up.


Jack

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #122 on: February 05, 2016, 01:08:45 PM »
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

There are tradeoffs however. Good luck saving enough money to become wealthy and retire early with their confiscatory tax rates. I'd rather have more money in my pocket and be able to choose how to spend it - on medical care, on charity, on plastic flamingoes, or on mutual fund shares, whatever.

^^^^THIS!

Did you read JLee's post? I'll quote it in case you missed it:

See the link I just posted. France spends less per capita (less than half) on health care than the US does. They have superior health care for less money overall, so in theory if this could be replicated the US would actually save money.

Anyway, you (Killerbrandt, not JLee) don't get it: even if France's tax rates are confiscatory, that's irrelevant because they're apparently spending that money on something other than health care! Just because a country has high tax and nationalized health care does not mean it has high tax because it has nationalized health care. It's sloppy reasoning that leads to an erroneous conclusion.

In reality, France's model suggests that we could cut costs by half and simultaneously improve quality by eliminating the insurance industry middlemen. And nothing about that forces us to institute evil socialism in any other aspect of society, or raise taxes for other stuff.

beltim

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #123 on: February 05, 2016, 01:09:39 PM »
Last year there were approximately 380,000 bankruptcies due to healthcare costs last year in the US.

I certainly think this is a problem that needs to be addressed, but most of the numbers out there are wildly inaccurate, reporting anyone with any medical debt when they declare bankruptcy as "medical related bankruptcies."  The actual number of people who declare bankruptcy because of healthcare costs is dramatically lower:
http://content.healthaffairs.org/content/25/2/w74.full

Killerbrandt

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #124 on: February 05, 2016, 01:13:37 PM »
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

There are tradeoffs however. Good luck saving enough money to become wealthy and retire early with their confiscatory tax rates. I'd rather have more money in my pocket and be able to choose how to spend it - on medical care, on charity, on plastic flamingoes, or on mutual fund shares, whatever.

^^^^THIS!

Did you read JLee's post? I'll quote it in case you missed it:

See the link I just posted. France spends less per capita (less than half) on health care than the US does. They have superior health care for less money overall, so in theory if this could be replicated the US would actually save money.

Anyway, you (Killerbrandt, not JLee) don't get it: even if France's tax rates are confiscatory, that's irrelevant because they're apparently spending that money on something other than health care! Just because a country has high tax and nationalized health care does not mean it has high tax because it has nationalized health care. It's sloppy reasoning that leads to an erroneous conclusion.

In reality, France's model suggests that we could cut costs by half and simultaneously improve quality by eliminating the insurance industry middlemen. And nothing about that forces us to institute evil socialism in any other aspect of society, or raise taxes for other stuff.

GREAT!! Then tell us that plan! :) I will gladly support a new health policy that cuts the costs in half and doesn't raise our taxes. So far Sanders plan does not show that or any other plan proposed out there. Since I don't get it, please show me this plan.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #125 on: February 05, 2016, 01:20:22 PM »
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

There are tradeoffs however. Good luck saving enough money to become wealthy and retire early with their confiscatory tax rates. I'd rather have more money in my pocket and be able to choose how to spend it - on medical care, on charity, on plastic flamingoes, or on mutual fund shares, whatever.

^^^^THIS!

Did you read JLee's post? I'll quote it in case you missed it:

See the link I just posted. France spends less per capita (less than half) on health care than the US does. They have superior health care for less money overall, so in theory if this could be replicated the US would actually save money.

Anyway, you (Killerbrandt, not JLee) don't get it: even if France's tax rates are confiscatory, that's irrelevant because they're apparently spending that money on something other than health care! Just because a country has high tax and nationalized health care does not mean it has high tax because it has nationalized health care. It's sloppy reasoning that leads to an erroneous conclusion.

In reality, France's model suggests that we could cut costs by half and simultaneously improve quality by eliminating the insurance industry middlemen. And nothing about that forces us to institute evil socialism in any other aspect of society, or raise taxes for other stuff.

GREAT!! Then tell us that plan! :) I will gladly support a new health policy that cuts the costs in half and doesn't raise our taxes. So far Sanders plan does not show that or any other plan proposed out there. Since I don't get it, please show me this plan.

https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/friedman-memo-1.pdf

"The net savings from single payer come from reduced spending on administrative activities, in both
private insurers and providers’ offices, reduced spending on monopoly prices for pharmaceuticals and
medical devices, and a slowdown in the growth of spending because of controls on administrative costs
and drug prices. While these savings come to over $10 trillion in 10 years, they are offset by increased
spending because of the extension of coverage to the uninsured and increases in utilization with the
removal of copayments and deductibles."


You hear taxes and you scream, cause taxes are baaaad. You are failing to see the big picture.

"It is possible to calculate the savings to families from the Sanders single payer program. For a
middle-class family of four with an income from wages of $50,000 and an employer-provided
family plan of an average price, the Sanders program would save $5,807, or 12% of income."

"Employers would save money, giving them an incentive to hire more workers. Instead of paying
premiums for employer-provided health insurance that often come to well over 10% of payroll,
employers would pay only 6.2% towards financing the program. In the case of a worker who
earns $50,000 and has an average family health plan with $12,591 employer contribution, the
employer would save over $9,400 per worker."
« Last Edit: February 05, 2016, 01:22:33 PM by zoltani »

Killerbrandt

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2016, 01:23:47 PM »
Most Americans preach this socialism idea without ever even leaving the country or experiencing first hand, sorry but most the people that I know that have, they would disagree with all of you also. Even a simple history book would show the downfall of socialism in almost every country.

I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

There are tradeoffs however. Good luck saving enough money to become wealthy and retire early with their confiscatory tax rates. I'd rather have more money in my pocket and be able to choose how to spend it - on medical care, on charity, on plastic flamingoes, or on mutual fund shares, whatever.

^^^^THIS!

Did you read JLee's post? I'll quote it in case you missed it:

See the link I just posted. France spends less per capita (less than half) on health care than the US does. They have superior health care for less money overall, so in theory if this could be replicated the US would actually save money.

Anyway, you (Killerbrandt, not JLee) don't get it: even if France's tax rates are confiscatory, that's irrelevant because they're apparently spending that money on something other than health care! Just because a country has high tax and nationalized health care does not mean it has high tax because it has nationalized health care. It's sloppy reasoning that leads to an erroneous conclusion.

In reality, France's model suggests that we could cut costs by half and simultaneously improve quality by eliminating the insurance industry middlemen. And nothing about that forces us to institute evil socialism in any other aspect of society, or raise taxes for other stuff.

GREAT!! Then tell us that plan! :) I will gladly support a new health policy that cuts the costs in half and doesn't raise our taxes. So far Sanders plan does not show that or any other plan proposed out there. Since I don't get it, please show me this plan.

https://berniesanders.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/friedman-memo-1.pdf

But that plan raises taxes. I though France had it right you said! We already pay double almost, so why do we need to raise taxes? Where is the plan to just cut costs if we go a full socialist health route?

beltim

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2016, 01:26:30 PM »
But that plan raises taxes. I though France had it right you said! We already pay double almost, so why do we need to raise taxes? Where is the plan to just cut costs if we go a full socialist health route?

I think you may be confusing comparisons.

The US pays double in health care costs.  Moving to a single payer system would involve taking dollars that currently go to insurance companies, and sending them to the government.  The idea is that yes, taxes would go up, but by less than the amount that currently goes to insurance companies.  This saves money overall.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2016, 01:30:10 PM »
But that plan raises taxes. I though France had it right you said! We already pay double almost, so why do we need to raise taxes? Where is the plan to just cut costs if we go a full socialist health route?

I think you may be confusing comparisons.

The US pays double in health care costs.  Moving to a single payer system would involve taking dollars that currently go to insurance companies, and sending them to the government.  The idea is that yes, taxes would go up, but by less than the amount that currently goes to insurance companies.  This saves money overall.

But but but TAXES

TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES
TAXES TAXES

cheapass

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #129 on: February 05, 2016, 01:53:22 PM »

You hear taxes and you scream, cause taxes are baaaad. You are failing to see the big picture.

"It is possible to calculate the savings to families from the Sanders single payer program. For a
middle-class family of four with an income from wages of $50,000 and an employer-provided
family plan of an average price, the Sanders program would save $5,807, or 12% of income."

"Employers would save money, giving them an incentive to hire more workers. Instead of paying
premiums for employer-provided health insurance that often come to well over 10% of payroll,
employers would pay only 6.2% towards financing the program. In the case of a worker who
earns $50,000 and has an average family health plan with $12,591 employer contribution, the
employer would save over $9,400 per worker."

Yeah, I totally trust the government to manage programs without totally fucking it up. See "Post Office"

Gin1984

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #130 on: February 05, 2016, 02:03:07 PM »

You hear taxes and you scream, cause taxes are baaaad. You are failing to see the big picture.

"It is possible to calculate the savings to families from the Sanders single payer program. For a
middle-class family of four with an income from wages of $50,000 and an employer-provided
family plan of an average price, the Sanders program would save $5,807, or 12% of income."

"Employers would save money, giving them an incentive to hire more workers. Instead of paying
premiums for employer-provided health insurance that often come to well over 10% of payroll,
employers would pay only 6.2% towards financing the program. In the case of a worker who
earns $50,000 and has an average family health plan with $12,591 employer contribution, the
employer would save over $9,400 per worker."

Yeah, I totally trust the government to manage programs without totally fucking it up. See "Post Office"
Sure let's look at the post office. 
"Five years ago, during the Bush administration, the Postal Service handled the largest volume of mail ever seen in its 236-year history. It was in that year, that the Republican controlled Congressed passed the Postal Accountability Enhancement Act (PAEA). As Truth-Out.org's Allison Kilkenny recently reported, by passing PAEA, Congressional Republicans mandated that within 10 years the United States Postal Service would have to fully fund retirement health care benefits for the next 75 years. Or to put it more plainly, the Postal Service had a decade to fully fund the retirement health care benefits for future employees that will not even be born until 2057 at the earliest."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karl-frisch/postal-service-cuts_b_961602.html
Why did the GOP do this, when the post office cost the tax payers nothing and was enumerated in our Constitution?

"In the end, Republicans know the Postal Service is a government agency that works well for Americans. And you know the GOP cannot have an example of good government floating around out there lest it get in the way of their political aspirations."

Jack

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #131 on: February 05, 2016, 02:03:56 PM »
But that plan raises taxes. I though France had it right you said! We already pay double almost, so why do we need to raise taxes? Where is the plan to just cut costs if we go a full socialist health route?

So let me get this straight: instead of paying $X to the government for healthcare, you'd rather pay 2 * $X to UnitedHealth Group etc.?

Yeah, I totally trust the government to manage programs without totally fucking it up. See "Post Office"

Propping something up as an example of failure because Republicans sabotaged it is dishonest.

Telecaster

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #132 on: February 05, 2016, 02:05:22 PM »
Yeah, I totally trust the government to manage programs without totally fucking it up. See "Post Office"

I think the Post Office is awesome!  I can send a letter to BFE Montana and Post Office will deliver it for 42 cents.   If I'm sending something across town it is usually delivered the next day.   I think the Post Office rocks.   

onlykelsey

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #133 on: February 05, 2016, 02:09:45 PM »

You hear taxes and you scream, cause taxes are baaaad. You are failing to see the big picture.

"It is possible to calculate the savings to families from the Sanders single payer program. For a
middle-class family of four with an income from wages of $50,000 and an employer-provided
family plan of an average price, the Sanders program would save $5,807, or 12% of income."

"Employers would save money, giving them an incentive to hire more workers. Instead of paying
premiums for employer-provided health insurance that often come to well over 10% of payroll,
employers would pay only 6.2% towards financing the program. In the case of a worker who
earns $50,000 and has an average family health plan with $12,591 employer contribution, the
employer would save over $9,400 per worker."

Yeah, I totally trust the government to manage programs without totally fucking it up. See "Post Office"
Sure let's look at the post office. 
"Five years ago, during the Bush administration, the Postal Service handled the largest volume of mail ever seen in its 236-year history. It was in that year, that the Republican controlled Congressed passed the Postal Accountability Enhancement Act (PAEA). As Truth-Out.org's Allison Kilkenny recently reported, by passing PAEA, Congressional Republicans mandated that within 10 years the United States Postal Service would have to fully fund retirement health care benefits for the next 75 years. Or to put it more plainly, the Postal Service had a decade to fully fund the retirement health care benefits for future employees that will not even be born until 2057 at the earliest."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/karl-frisch/postal-service-cuts_b_961602.html
Why did the GOP do this, when the post office cost the tax payers nothing and was enumerated in our Constitution?

"In the end, Republicans know the Postal Service is a government agency that works well for Americans. And you know the GOP cannot have an example of good government floating around out there lest it get in the way of their political aspirations."


Yeah, I thought what you said about the post office was a left-wing conspiracy until I looked in to it.  What a strange, utterly non-productive program.  USPS is awesome.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #134 on: February 05, 2016, 02:12:24 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

Jack

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #135 on: February 05, 2016, 02:19:47 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

Even under the current system, you pay for it anyway. The difference is that the costs are inflated by middlemen and obscured by layers of abstraction.

Instead of directly, via taxes, you pay for it by things including the following:
  • increased health insurance premiums
  • increased property taxes for things like emergency medical services and subsidized hospital emergency rooms
  • Lower overall economic output (GDP) due to a generally less-healthy population

woopwoop

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #136 on: February 05, 2016, 02:29:11 PM »
I have a couple serious questions to the MMM Sanders supporters on here....

1. Do you really think Wall Street is a complete fraud?

2. Do you really think "the game is rigged" against people achieving the American Dream?
I don't think your questions are serious, but I'll answer them anyway. 1. Yes, Wall Street is incredibly fraudulent. Did you see the Big Short? If you're not knowledgeable about the level of fraudulent activities on Wall Street, it's a decent introduction to how absolutely fucked the systems can be. Big money wields power and influence to the extent that bankers don't have to worry about facing criminal repurcussions for stealing money or committing fraud. Insurance companies are allowed to scam the elderly with "investments" that kick back hefty commissions to their "financial advisors." Lack of fiduciary duty is rife among big banks, and people are getting fucked over all the time by banks that know they can get away with it.

2. If you don't think the system is rigged against the poor and disenfranchised in our country, I think you're seriously ignorant and in need of a heavy dose of compassion for those less fortunate than you. Every day we get more and more unequal in society. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, and those who escape their upbringings are rare exceptions to an unfortunate rule - that if you're born without power and money, you will serve those who are born with it. The idea of America as a meritocracy is dying a slow death.

Apart from all that, the main reason I support Sanders has nothing to do with the economy - it's because I see climate change as a much greater threat than any tax hike or economic downturn, and he's the candidate I trust to put forward initiatives to alter the way we're fucking over our environment.

I would rather my kids inherit clean air and water than any amount of money.

the_gastropod

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #137 on: February 05, 2016, 02:32:40 PM »
If you are not demonizing the 1 percent, then why do you care how much they make?

What? I don't... Again, progressive income taxes are nothing new. Please state your point! Is your point that progressive income taxes are unfair? Is your point that tweaking our existing progressive income tax brackets is unfair?

Quote from: Killerbrandt
You should not give a damn to what they use their money on and if you knew anything about the market, then you would know their money is going back into society and creating jobs.

Incorrect. 100% of government spending contributes to GDP. Since wealthy people tend to spend a lower percentage of their income than poorer people, they're also poor vehicles for GDP growth. "Trickle down" economics is not taken seriously by any serious modern economists.

Quote from: Killerbrandt
Yeah I know how marginal tax works, so you think its fair that some put no skin in the game, while other put a ton into the system and you want to take even more?

I believe we are paying enough! we could easily cut costs to balance the budget and not have to force more from people.

Again, the 42% not paying income tax DO have "skin in the game". They are paying sales tax, property tax, and payroll taxes. If you are earning $10,000,000 per year, you have options if you don't want to pay 12% more in taxes! You could: donate more to charity, lower your salary to pay your employees better, use your salary to hire more employees, quit your job, or any number of other things. Making $10M/year is an OPTION. An option millions of less fortunate Americans could only dream of having.

PKFFW

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #138 on: February 05, 2016, 02:53:00 PM »
I have a question for those against raising taxes on the top earners.

Do you honestly believe those people will actually have to pay any significant amount more in taxes?

The rich effectively make the rules.  They have always had the ability to ensure the rules are written to benefit them.  If not then at least to have a loop hole written into the rule so they can avoid it.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #139 on: February 05, 2016, 03:07:39 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

the_gastropod

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #140 on: February 05, 2016, 03:21:07 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

This. Also, you're already paying for unhealthy people via your health insurance premiums.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #141 on: February 05, 2016, 03:25:59 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

Even under the current system, you pay for it anyway. The difference is that the costs are inflated by middlemen and obscured by layers of abstraction.

Instead of directly, via taxes, you pay for it by things including the following:
  • increased health insurance premiums
  • increased property taxes for things like emergency medical services and subsidized hospital emergency rooms
  • Lower overall economic output (GDP) due to a generally less-healthy population
I pay $30/month for my insurance, my company pays for the rest of it, it also has it's own health care facility as well as it's own gym which together have brought the insurance costs of my company down as well. I pay $800/year in property taxes, in a town that doesn't even have a hospital or doctors office. The last one I don't have much control over.
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

This. Also, you're already paying for unhealthy people via your health insurance premiums.
see above
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?
You shouldn't, I'm glad you agree with me that we shouldn't have a single tax payer system. That being said, me being in the road playing with my toy is safer than being at home watching TV

dycker1978

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #142 on: February 05, 2016, 03:28:39 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

Or God forbid you end up with a congenital defect that was unknown, but could be life threatening.  I find that last statement about being lazy and unhealthy quite offensive and pretty ignorant.   All though activity level has something to do with health, it is not the only factor.  That, to me, is like saying all homeless are lazy bumbs.  It is completely not true.

Kris

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #143 on: February 05, 2016, 03:35:36 PM »
Quote
I disagree with you. I lived in France and experienced the best care I have ever received there. Coming back to the US healthcare was really depressing to me.

Agreed. I've lived medium- and long-term in Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Russia, and even in Russia I think the bottom 50% of the population got better care than our bottom 50%.  There are other trade offs, and liberals claiming we should just copy Sweden's policies without taking into account huge differences drive me up a wall, but American infrastructure and medicine is decades behind everywhere I've lived in northern Europe.  I was embarrassed.

Count me as another who has lived in Europe more than once and has seen the benefits of their health care. 

Jack

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #144 on: February 05, 2016, 03:36:58 PM »
I pay $30/month for my insurance, my company pays for the rest of it

Nope. You pay for all of it, because if the company weren't paying it you could have had a salary that much higher instead. You also pay for your share of the company's health care facility and gym, for the same reason. Money is fungible.

I pay $800/year in property taxes, in a town that doesn't even have a hospital or doctors office. The last one I don't have much control over.

Ah, so that means you and the rest of the residents of your town are getting subsidized by people elsewhere in your county and/or state, because when you have a medical emergency you use the ambulance they pay for to travel over the roads they pay for to get to the hospital they pay for.

beltim

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #145 on: February 05, 2016, 03:40:44 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

Or God forbid you end up with a congenital defect that was unknown, but could be life threatening.  I find that last statement about being lazy and unhealthy quite offensive and pretty ignorant.   All though activity level has something to do with health, it is not the only factor.  That, to me, is like saying all homeless are lazy bumbs.  It is completely not true.

This is a good point.  The last time I got people to look at it, I thought there was good support for about one-quarter of health-care spending being avoidable based on lifestyle changes:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/avoidable-health-care-costs/

Kris

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #146 on: February 05, 2016, 03:40:50 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

Or God forbid you end up with a congenital defect that was unknown, but could be life threatening.  I find that last statement about being lazy and unhealthy quite offensive and pretty ignorant.   All though activity level has something to do with health, it is not the only factor.  That, to me, is like saying all homeless are lazy bumbs.  It is completely not true.

It would serve him right for having genetically imperfect parents.  Taker.

dycker1978

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #147 on: February 05, 2016, 03:46:44 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

Or God forbid you end up with a congenital defect that was unknown, but could be life threatening.  I find that last statement about being lazy and unhealthy quite offensive and pretty ignorant.   All though activity level has something to do with health, it is not the only factor.  That, to me, is like saying all homeless are lazy bumbs.  It is completely not true.

It would serve him right for having genetically imperfect parents.  Taker.

Awesome!  this fourm needs a like button..

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #148 on: February 05, 2016, 03:49:46 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

Or God forbid you end up with a congenital defect that was unknown, but could be life threatening.  I find that last statement about being lazy and unhealthy quite offensive and pretty ignorant.   All though activity level has something to do with health, it is not the only factor.  That, to me, is like saying all homeless are lazy bumbs.  It is completely not true.
I said "for the Americans that have health problems FROM being lazy and unhealthy." I know their are many other types of health problems. But it's a fact that people who exercise regularly and eat healthy will spend A LOT less in health care on average.
here are some quotes from MMM

"sure, there’s always a chance that some hidden bits of my genetic code will give me some unexpected form of cancer, or a freaky accident will bust me up. But when you look at the odds of these events by reviewing the statistics for a healthy population of people, they are very low."

"If you’re a lean and highly active person who leads a low-stress life and eats healthy foods, the odds are nicely in your favor that you will coast gracefully well into your 60s before you have any sort of medical issues. "

He did say he would support a full public health insurance(single tax payer) system though.

zoltani

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Re: Trump and Bernie would destroy the US economy
« Reply #149 on: February 05, 2016, 04:03:42 PM »
I have one problem with a single tax payer system which some will probably find ridiculous. I take good care of myself, I eat healthy and workout. The only time I've had surgery was when I got my wisdom teeth removed. I don't want to pay for the millions of Americans that have health problems from being lazy and unhealthy.

You're out cycling one day, being healthy and getting some exercise. BAM you get hit by a car (hit and run) and need major surgery and rehabilitation. Why should I have to pay for you to be in the road playing with your toy when you could have been safe at home watching TV like the rest of us?

Or God forbid you end up with a congenital defect that was unknown, but could be life threatening.  I find that last statement about being lazy and unhealthy quite offensive and pretty ignorant.   All though activity level has something to do with health, it is not the only factor.  That, to me, is like saying all homeless are lazy bumbs.  It is completely not true.
I said "for the Americans that have health problems FROM being lazy and unhealthy." I know their are many other types of health problems. But it's a fact that people who exercise regularly and eat healthy will spend A LOT less in health care on average.
here are some quotes from MMM

How will you determine which health problems are from being lazy and unhealthy, which are from genetics, and which are from plain ole bad luck?

I like to participate in what some would consider "risky activities" where do I fall in your spectrum?