Author Topic: Trans women and women's sports  (Read 9131 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2021, 08:12:29 AM »
Watching sports is stupid so nobody should care about them anyway. Go play some sports and get some exercise and stop watching other people get lots of money from endorsements and stuff for playing children’s games.

We're discussing the rules regarding inclusiveness and trans women competing in sport in general.  This is important from early childhood all the way up to adulthood, and typically doesn't involve televised sporting events.

Kris

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2021, 11:58:57 AM »
Interesting Twitter thread on this subject:

https://twitter.com/SportIsARight/status/1357723759910805505

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2021, 01:47:52 PM »
Interesting Twitter thread on this subject:

https://twitter.com/SportIsARight/status/1357723759910805505


Thank you for the link!



When you include the extreme outliers of hyperandrogenism, there is indeed some overlap between men and women in testosterone levels (as long as we conveniently ignore the male entries above 33 nmol/L - but it seems weird to ignore the edge case men when we're including the edge case women in order to claim 'total overlap').  If you look closely at the big pink spike the overwhelming majority of elite women athletes fall into the 'way less testosterone levels than men' category - below 5 nmol/L.

There is indeed a wide range of testosterone levels among elite male athletes.  As mentioned earlier in our discussion above though, current testosterone levels do not tell the whole story.  The amount of testosterone present when a person goes through puberty significantly alters the way the body develops as far as muscle mass, bone density, and tendon strength.  In her argument for ignoring testosterone differences between men and women in sport she mentions this: 
Quote
This means that there are elite male athletes with 0.5nmol/L competing with no disadvantage next to guys with 40nmol/L (that's 80x difference!!).

But that also means that there are cis female athletes with 3nmol/L competing and LOSING to those 0.5nmol/L men (6x).
Which is troubling to me.  That seems to indicate that there may be no fair way for trans women to compete against natural women.  Given that Dr. Ivy (formerly Dr. Rachel McKinnon) is a trans woman cyclist who currently holds the world record in the women's 200m sprint, ages 34–39 and is the women's world track cyclist sprint champion in the same age group.  It is strange to me that she would make this statement.

Dr. Ivy (Doctorate in Philosophy) claims that there is no evidence that endogenous testosterone has a relationship to sport performance.  A cursory examination of available data indicates that this is untrue:
Quote
The available, albeit incomplete, evidence makes it highly likely that the sex difference in circulating testosterone of adults explains most, if not all, the sex differences in sporting performance. This is based on the dose-response effects of circulating testosterone to increase muscle mass and strength, bone size and strength (density), and circulating hemoglobin, each of which alone increases athletic capacity, as well as other possible sex dichotomous, androgen-sensitive contributors such as mental effects (mood, motivation, aggression) and muscle myoglobin content. These facts explain the clear sex difference in athletic performance in most sports, on which basis it is commonly accepted that competition has to be divided into male and female categories.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6391653/

"Effects of moderately increased testosterone concentration on physical performance in young women: a double blind, randomised, placebo controlled study:
...
The study supports a causal effect of testosterone in the increase in aerobic running time as well as lean mass in young, physically active women."
https://www.doping.nl/media/kb/6140/Hirschberg%20et%20al%202019.pdf




I don't see the complete overlap between men and women's height and weight that the twitter poster is claiming . . . despite men clearly showing measured weights (240lbs+) well above that of women, and measured heights (6'7"+) well above those of the women.  Indeed, average, median, and maximum weights and heights are larger for men in the graphs provided.

That said, her point is well taken that there is large variation among elite woman athletes with respect to height and weight.  I don't believe that height or weight are good ways of separating men and women.

scottish

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2021, 03:15:50 PM »
What would happen if we left men's and women's categories the way they are now, and created two new transgender categories for trans athletes?

So that all trans athletes have to be outed and isolated from CIS athletes?

Also, trans is not a monolithic experience or advantage. So lumping all trans athletes together doesn't even biologically make much sense.

I agree.

A policy of 'separate but equal' for trans people in sports really seems like the wrong path to take.  Off the top of my head, three things immediately jump out:
- At best, you're talking about a few percentage points of people in a given population . . . so the actual competition in trans sports would be severely restricted most places to the point of non-existent.  This has the likely effect of simply shutting down trans sport altogether.
- It's already difficult finding viewership for women's sports.  I'd have to imagine that trans specific sport would be even lower than that.  Reducing money tends to mean reduced opportunity for training, less available equipment, less funding for instruction.
- It's an exclusive way to single out the trans people as different, rather than trying to inclusively bring everyone together.  I believe that this would have the impact of inflaming rather than reducing tensions with transphobic people.

Transgendered people are experiencing prejudice just as homosexuals have, and don't want their birth gender to be known.   So this is a valid argument.

Sports have already established that lumping genders together makes sense, so I don't know why you say "it doesn't even make sense", Malcat.   Care to elaborate?

A trans man is someone who identifies as a man, but is in a woman's body, correct?   And s/he may have medication or surgery to adjust this.    But an elite trans male athlete would have difficulty competing with elite cisgender male athletes.    And they can't compete with female athletes, because they aren't considered to be female.   so who do they compete with?

As for the trans woman case, I think there's a huge perception problem that transgender female athletes are actually men and they shouldn't be competing with women, no matter how much medical therapy they've had.    But maybe the perception problem isn't important, because it's not about providing entertainment for an audience is it?   It's providing a venue for someone to reach their potential in a sport...

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2021, 04:10:54 PM »
What would happen if we left men's and women's categories the way they are now, and created two new transgender categories for trans athletes?

So that all trans athletes have to be outed and isolated from CIS athletes?

Also, trans is not a monolithic experience or advantage. So lumping all trans athletes together doesn't even biologically make much sense.

I agree.

A policy of 'separate but equal' for trans people in sports really seems like the wrong path to take.  Off the top of my head, three things immediately jump out:
- At best, you're talking about a few percentage points of people in a given population . . . so the actual competition in trans sports would be severely restricted most places to the point of non-existent.  This has the likely effect of simply shutting down trans sport altogether.
- It's already difficult finding viewership for women's sports.  I'd have to imagine that trans specific sport would be even lower than that.  Reducing money tends to mean reduced opportunity for training, less available equipment, less funding for instruction.
- It's an exclusive way to single out the trans people as different, rather than trying to inclusively bring everyone together.  I believe that this would have the impact of inflaming rather than reducing tensions with transphobic people.

Transgendered people are experiencing prejudice just as homosexuals have, and don't want their birth gender to be known.   So this is a valid argument.

Sports have already established that lumping genders together makes sense, so I don't know why you say "it doesn't even make sense", Malcat.   Care to elaborate?

A trans man is someone who identifies as a man, but is in a woman's body, correct?   And s/he may have medication or surgery to adjust this.    But an elite trans male athlete would have difficulty competing with elite cisgender male athletes.    And they can't compete with female athletes, because they aren't considered to be female.   so who do they compete with?

Trans men get testosterone as part of their hormone replacement, and studies have shown improved athletic performance after doing so.  I've been able to find trans men who have outperformed (or at least been able to hang in with) natural born men on many occasions in high level competition:
https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/trans-man-wins-debut-pro-boxer-pat-manuel-771783/
https://www.espn.com/espnw/voices/story/_/id/27652214/what-does-journey-transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-teach-us
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/508283-kye-allums-get-caught-up-on-story-around-transgender-ncaa-hoops-player
https://gocrimson.com/sports/mens-swimming-and-diving/roster/schuyler-bailar/7065
https://www.npr.org/2012/05/24/153589689/transgender-athlete-competes-for-olympic-spot

I suspect that you don't hear as much about them because it's harder to thump your chest and get upset about someone born a woman who beats men . . .  there's an element of macho-shame that contributes to a more protective silence on the issue than trans women face.


As for the trans woman case, I think there's a huge perception problem that transgender female athletes are actually men and they shouldn't be competing with women, no matter how much medical therapy they've had.    But maybe the perception problem isn't important, because it's not about providing entertainment for an audience is it?   It's providing a venue for someone to reach their potential in a sport...

I think that the perception problem comes largely from two sources:
- concern that there exists an unfair advantage from being born male
- transphobia

If we can address the first point scientifically and in a reasonable manner, then it should be easier to stamp out the second.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2021, 04:58:25 PM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

darkadams00

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #56 on: July 05, 2021, 06:41:42 PM »
I think that the perception problem comes largely from two sources:
- concern that there exists an unfair advantage from being born male
- transphobia

If we can address the first point scientifically and in a reasonable manner, then it should be easier to stamp out the second.

I can respect the effort to have dialog on this issue, but why is there no room in your thought process to address the fact that many people just don’t understand the trans issue more than a definition? I know hundreds of people across several socioeconomic, racial, educational, and religious levels who don’t know a transgender person in their entire life experience. They’re wondering about transgender athletes playing on their Little League and PeeWee teams—even though they’re totally fine with coed sports at that level. Boys/girls on the same team—no issue for almost twenty years. But media feeds are beginning to exceed life experience for many people, and as soon as they ask questions and express sincere doubts, they’re labeled, “trans phobes”? I work in a global company with >10k employees and consult with similar size companies and govt agencies, and I only know two. How quickly would that go to zero for people with a smaller work/social circle?

Also, “stamping out” is not an appropriate mindset. It pushes the argument into an “us” vs “them” and asserts your position is the most preferable/enlightened based on your opinion. If you’re really having a dialog, is there a possibility that you’re wrong? When we’re still dealing with > 100 years of loaded race language and still discussing mainstream LGBT issues from the 00s, it’s a lot to ask culturally to just keep expanding the dialog/group/idea before we’ve come close to addressing earlier issues across the various social/public/private sectors. And that’s just the biology. Then there’s all the questions about the language and grammar that’s being changed. Where’s the liberty to say, “Wait! What?” without a label or assigning bad character/judgment.

No need to derail the dialog here, but language like this does begin to wander into virtue signaling territory (IMO). Sometimes respect is demonstrated in the words not said. Declaring a dialog doesn’t make it so. Carry on.

darkadams00

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #57 on: July 05, 2021, 07:19:20 PM »

I think that the perception problem comes largely from two sources:
- concern that there exists an unfair advantage from being born male

Agreed. I think the only way to give this due diligence will require two things: (1) time to study/research to a level that people can be reasonably expected to trust and (2) rules implemented/enforced by a governing body that people feel will act in an unbiased manner. The time issue will be difficult for current athletes to deal with because it would take them out of play, perhaps for their career while paving the way for future athletes. The governing body question is difficult because decisions by governing bodies are so frequently questioned anyway, e.g. see several past rulings related to the NCAA, IOC, and the Tour de France protest last week.

And anywhere boys/girls already compete together frequently this should be more quickly accepted. Where there are strict policies (and records are kept), acceptance should be required to pass a higher bar that could be met at some point in time by the governing body. Otherwise there is a risk of erasing records that may/may not be shown to need to be reinstated later when we know more about the science (or asterisks take over the rule book).

With that said, in middle/high school sports particularly, there are still significant social issues to address such as locker rooms. Regardless of how a person identifies, there will be pushback when movies are rated R/MA for nudity although a biologically male-endowed but female identifying person is showering and dressing after the game with a JV team of ninth graders. In team sports, is it really possible to not be “out” to your teammates if you’re trans?

All in all, administrators, students, and PTAs are being asked to address this question theoretically with policies—even if it’s never happened to them before. That’s not a trivial exercise of hypothetical when they have 2-3 kids in school and they’re just trying to figure all this out. And that goes beyond the more general “school bathroom” question which has already flamed political crossfire.

scottish

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2021, 07:33:34 PM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

This isn't something I think about very much at all.     I find the whole transgender thing a bit strange, and I don't really understand it.   But it's not really any of my business.   I don't care how people dress, or what washroom they use or who they choose for intimate partners.   The only reason I replied was because I saw an article about Laurel Hubbard and it was fresh in my mind.   But now that I'm here, can you explain

Why is "assigned female" preferred to physical gender of female, or woman's body, or natural born?    And who made the assignment?

norajean

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2021, 09:08:01 PM »
I don’t really have a horse in this race.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2021, 09:53:10 PM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

This isn't something I think about very much at all.     I find the whole transgender thing a bit strange, and I don't really understand it.   But it's not really any of my business.   I don't care how people dress, or what washroom they use or who they choose for intimate partners.   The only reason I replied was because I saw an article about Laurel Hubbard and it was fresh in my mind.   But now that I'm here, can you explain

Why is "assigned female" preferred to physical gender of female, or woman's body, or natural born?    And who made the assignment?

Saying that someone has a “physically” or “naturally” whatever body reinforces the incorrect idea there is only one way to be be a man/woman/etc and invalidates the identity of trans persons.

Trans persons were assigned a gender at birth based on their external genitalia or characteristics but that wasn’t necessarily the correct sex or gender of that person.

Metalcat

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2021, 09:53:57 PM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

This isn't something I think about very much at all.     I find the whole transgender thing a bit strange, and I don't really understand it.   But it's not really any of my business.   I don't care how people dress, or what washroom they use or who they choose for intimate partners.   The only reason I replied was because I saw an article about Laurel Hubbard and it was fresh in my mind.   But now that I'm here, can you explain

Why is "assigned female" preferred to physical gender of female, or woman's body, or natural born?    And who made the assignment?

I know you're not asking me, but whatever, I'll answer anyway.

There is no such thing as physical gender. There are primary sex features and secondary sex features, but no physical gender. Male and female are genders. Primary sex features are genitals, both internal and external, secondary sex features are build, body shape, breasts, body hair, etc, all of which show up in puberty.

The most important thing to note is that being trans is not a choice, gender is not a choice. If a girl is born with male genitalia, she was never a boy, she was always a girl, it just takes time for her to be able to understand and communicate that.

So if she was always a girl, then why did she have to struggle, why was it hard for her to figure out that she was a girl? Because the appearance of her genitals made everyone treat her like a boy. That's what is meant by assigned.

The moment doctors and parents see what an infant's genitals look like, they assign a gender to the child, even if it's the wrong gender. Trans people usually start knowing something is wrong very very young, well before they can do anything about it. They didn't choose the gender they were raised as, someone assigned it to them based on what their genitals look like. They don't choose to be trans. They can choose to transition, but they never choose to be trans.

Now that doesn't just apply to trans people. So called "intersex" children deal with the same problem. An infant can be born with external genitals that appear a certain way, but their internal sex organs may be the opposite, this means that they will be assigned one gender at birth, but develop like the opposite gender at puberty. Sometimes the assigned gender matches their identity, so they take the same meds as trans folks to stay with their assigned gender. Other times they transition to the gender that matches their new hormones.

Now, some of these cases aren't detected until puberty, so the kids are often consulted as to which gender they identify with. However, when the external genitals are ambiguous, doctors used to always decide for the child based on which correction was easiest. This lead to an enormous number of problems, so now the advice is to wait until the child can understand and communicate which gender they actually are.

The point is, the practice of assigning gender to infants based on the appearance of their genitals is typically accurate, which is why we've always done it, but sometimes isn't, for multiple reasons.

[ETA: by "we", I mean western culture. Other cultures aren't always as assigning of gender. Indigenous cultures I particular often make a lot of space for self identification of gender, point being, it's a cultural practice that gender is assigned, not a given because of genitals and secondary sex features]

Now, a lot of people don't really care because these misgendered kids are relatively rare, so unless you know and love one yourself, it's hard to grasp what it means. The magnitude of what this means for them and their safety.

However, it is VERY important because most people care about kids dying, and that's the consequence of society not caring about trans kids. They tend to die. Like, horrifying percentages of them die. Having gender mis-assigned at birth is one of the deadliest and most dangerous conditions for children if they don't have proper supports.

A misgendered child who doesn't have adequate support is virtually guaranteed to suffer debilitating mental health issues and likely commit suicide. On the flip side, a misgendered kid who receives a ton of support often ends up a pretty normal, happy kid. But that support needs to be societal as well.

So when we use language like "born a boy", that invalidates that the trans girl is a girl, was always a girl, and was only raised as a boy because of what their genitals looked like. It communicates to trans people that you think they were actually a boy and they chose to be a girl. It invalidates how necessary it was for them to be their true self, which they *always* were, the people around them just didn't know it because they were born with the wrong genitals.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2021, 06:38:19 AM by Malcat »

MudPuppy

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2021, 10:01:45 PM »
Thanks for lending your eloquence, @Malcat


I also want to remind people that the rate of intersex conditions (not even trans persons!) is about 2% and that’s not terribly far from the rate of redheads. These are “rare” circumstances but I think people underestimate their own contact with the circumstances.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2021, 06:04:53 AM »
I think that the perception problem comes largely from two sources:
- concern that there exists an unfair advantage from being born male
- transphobia

If we can address the first point scientifically and in a reasonable manner, then it should be easier to stamp out the second.

I can respect the effort to have dialog on this issue, but why is there no room in your thought process to address the fact that many people just don’t understand the trans issue more than a definition? I know hundreds of people across several socioeconomic, racial, educational, and religious levels who don’t know a transgender person in their entire life experience. They’re wondering about transgender athletes playing on their Little League and PeeWee teams—even though they’re totally fine with coed sports at that level. Boys/girls on the same team—no issue for almost twenty years. But media feeds are beginning to exceed life experience for many people, and as soon as they ask questions and express sincere doubts, they’re labeled, “trans phobes”? I work in a global company with >10k employees and consult with similar size companies and govt agencies, and I only know two. How quickly would that go to zero for people with a smaller work/social circle?

Also, “stamping out” is not an appropriate mindset. It pushes the argument into an “us” vs “them” and asserts your position is the most preferable/enlightened based on your opinion. If you’re really having a dialog, is there a possibility that you’re wrong? When we’re still dealing with > 100 years of loaded race language and still discussing mainstream LGBT issues from the 00s, it’s a lot to ask culturally to just keep expanding the dialog/group/idea before we’ve come close to addressing earlier issues across the various social/public/private sectors. And that’s just the biology. Then there’s all the questions about the language and grammar that’s being changed. Where’s the liberty to say, “Wait! What?” without a label or assigning bad character/judgment.

No need to derail the dialog here, but language like this does begin to wander into virtue signaling territory (IMO). Sometimes respect is demonstrated in the words not said. Declaring a dialog doesn’t make it so. Carry on.

I've interpreted the gist of your bolded argument as the idea that cis people should be allowed time to come to an understanding of the new terms being created and used, and to be allowed to ask wtf they mean, without being labeled as transphobic. Have I got that correct?

In the interest of time, I'm going to rely to what I believe you're arguing. If I'm wrong, then correct me and we can move along.

The error in the argument you've set up is egocentrism. The terms being created aren't for you. They are for trans, non-binary, genderqueer people. The pace of these non-cis people's development, and their creation of new language has nothing to do with you.  The fact that you don't understand the new language is not the problem of the non-cis folks.

It's true that sometimes those who are truly seeking understanding and harmony ask questions, and get called names they don't like. The proper response, as an adult, is to figure out the right way to ask questions. My suggestion, particularly if you're lacking non-cis friends, is to figure out how to become involved in a young teenager's life. It's a three-fold solution. The kids are still young enough they just assume you won't be cool, so you don't have to front; the kids get the benefit of getting to guide an adult, which is a great life lesson; and you walk away educated, without offending anyone.

The kids are all right, and they are hella queer. They don't have to wait for permission to start using the language they want to use.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2021, 07:51:38 AM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

This is an interesting conundrum you've highlighted here, and it really made me think.  The problem is caused by the imprecision of the English language.

Male/female denotes sex:
Sex - either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

To say 'assigned female at birth' is incorrect when discussing sex.  There's no assignment going on, just an accounting of the equipment you're born with.


Male/female also denotes gender though:
Gender - either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

To say 'assigned female at birth' would be correct when discussing gender (since gender refers to changeable social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).


Sex and gender have been used interchangeably for a long time, so this way of thinking about things is different for me.  The way to distinguish between the two is by determining the context of usage.  When discussing 'women's sport' that includes trans women we must be using the gender 'women' rather than the sex - so I think your request makes sense, and I won't use the term 'natural woman' in the future.

As to the content of the request though, 'assigned female at birth' is a pretty clunky way to refer to someone.  If it's acceptable, the terms cis-woman / trans-woman seem to work better for me, and would be my preferred method of address.



The most important thing to note is that being trans is not a choice, gender is not a choice. If a girl is born with male genitalia, she was never a boy, she was always a girl, it just takes time for her to be able to understand and communicate that.

So if she was always a girl, then why did she have to struggle, why was it hard for her to figure out that she was a girl? Because the appearance of her genitals made everyone treat her like a boy. That's what is meant by assigned.

I disagree with you on this - your definition is overly restrictive.  Gender (while typically assumed based upon sex characteristics) must indeed be a choice.  I say 'must' because there exist people who transition and then de-transition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition).  ie, a man who transitions to woman, then de-transitions back to a man.  Was that person born a man, or a woman?  According to your example above, they would have been born a gendered woman when they were transitioning . . . then born a gendered man when de-transitioning.  Therefore - there must be some element of choice in the matter.



So when we use language like "born a boy", that invalidates that the trans girl is a girl, was always a girl, and was only raised as a boy because of what their genitals looked like. It communicates to trans people that you think they were actually a boy and they chose to be a girl. It invalidates how necessary it was for them to be their true self, which they *always* were, the people around them just didn't know it because they were born with the wrong genitals.

Part of the problem here (I think) is the imprecision of the English language.  We use the same terms to denote gender and sex.  If someone says that another person was born a boy, they could be denoting the sex of the other person (which would be accurate) or the gender of the person (which would be inaccurate).  This language is context dependent and seems prone to misinterpretation.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2021, 08:05:02 AM »
I think that the perception problem comes largely from two sources:
- concern that there exists an unfair advantage from being born male
- transphobia

If we can address the first point scientifically and in a reasonable manner, then it should be easier to stamp out the second.

I can respect the effort to have dialog on this issue, but why is there no room in your thought process to address the fact that many people just don’t understand the trans issue more than a definition? I know hundreds of people across several socioeconomic, racial, educational, and religious levels who don’t know a transgender person in their entire life experience. They’re wondering about transgender athletes playing on their Little League and PeeWee teams—even though they’re totally fine with coed sports at that level. Boys/girls on the same team—no issue for almost twenty years. But media feeds are beginning to exceed life experience for many people, and as soon as they ask questions and express sincere doubts, they’re labeled, “trans phobes”? I work in a global company with >10k employees and consult with similar size companies and govt agencies, and I only know two. How quickly would that go to zero for people with a smaller work/social circle?

My circle of friends and family has (thinking back) actually been pretty diverse and accepting in this area, so it's not something I thought of.  But fair point, and one that I'll need to remember.


Also, “stamping out” is not an appropriate mindset. It pushes the argument into an “us” vs “them” and asserts your position is the most preferable/enlightened based on your opinion. If you’re really having a dialog, is there a possibility that you’re wrong? When we’re still dealing with > 100 years of loaded race language and still discussing mainstream LGBT issues from the 00s, it’s a lot to ask culturally to just keep expanding the dialog/group/idea before we’ve come close to addressing earlier issues across the various social/public/private sectors. And that’s just the biology. Then there’s all the questions about the language and grammar that’s being changed. Where’s the liberty to say, “Wait! What?” without a label or assigning bad character/judgment.

My position is not the most preferable or enlightened.  I have many questions about this whole thing, which is why I've been discussing it and researching it.  Honest confusion is not trans-phobia - this is a big change, and questions/confusion I think are a reasonable thing to feel initially.  Questions (and arguments) about grammar - certainly not trans-phobia.  This is a big change, and I don't expect that it's going to happen overnight.

But I'd define trans-phobia as hate.  It's an unreasoning dislike of and prejudice against trans people simply for being trans.  Similar to homophobia, or racism.  I don't believe that a reasonable argument can be made to normalize or accept this line of thought . . . hence the 'stamping out' language.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2021, 08:08:36 AM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

As to the content of the request though, 'assigned female at birth' is a pretty clunky way to refer to someone.  If it's acceptable, the terms cis-woman / trans-woman seem to work better for me, and would be my preferred method of address.

The abbreviations AFAB and AMAB are also used.
Whether or not something is a clunky way to refer to someone should be of lesser importance than those one is referring to asking to be referred to in that (potentially clunky) manner.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2021, 08:14:34 AM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

This is an interesting conundrum you've highlighted here, and it really made me think.  The problem is caused by the imprecision of the English language.

Male/female denotes sex:
Sex - either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.

To say 'assigned female at birth' is incorrect when discussing sex.  There's no assignment going on, just an accounting of the equipment you're born with.


Male/female also denotes gender though:
Gender - either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.

To say 'assigned female at birth' would be correct when discussing gender (since gender refers to changeable social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).


Sex and gender have been used interchangeably for a long time, so this way of thinking about things is different for me.  The way to distinguish between the two is by determining the context of usage.  When discussing 'women's sport' that includes trans women we must be using the gender 'women' rather than the sex - so I think your request makes sense, and I won't use the term 'natural woman' in the future.

As to the content of the request though, 'assigned female at birth' is a pretty clunky way to refer to someone.  If it's acceptable, the terms cis-woman / trans-woman seem to work better for me, and would be my preferred method of address.



The most important thing to note is that being trans is not a choice, gender is not a choice. If a girl is born with male genitalia, she was never a boy, she was always a girl, it just takes time for her to be able to understand and communicate that.

So if she was always a girl, then why did she have to struggle, why was it hard for her to figure out that she was a girl? Because the appearance of her genitals made everyone treat her like a boy. That's what is meant by assigned.

I disagree with you on this - your definition is overly restrictive.  Gender (while typically assumed based upon sex characteristics) must indeed be a choice.  I say 'must' because there exist people who transition and then de-transition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition).  ie, a man who transitions to woman, then de-transitions back to a man.  Was that person born a man, or a woman?  According to your example above, they would have been born a gendered woman when they were transitioning . . . then born a gendered man when de-transitioning.  Therefore - there must be some element of choice in the matter.



So when we use language like "born a boy", that invalidates that the trans girl is a girl, was always a girl, and was only raised as a boy because of what their genitals looked like. It communicates to trans people that you think they were actually a boy and they chose to be a girl. It invalidates how necessary it was for them to be their true self, which they *always* were, the people around them just didn't know it because they were born with the wrong genitals.

Part of the problem here (I think) is the imprecision of the English language.  We use the same terms to denote gender and sex.  If someone says that another person was born a boy, they could be denoting the sex of the other person (which would be accurate) or the gender of the person (which would be inaccurate).  This language is context dependent and seems prone to misinterpretation.

I was clear. Transitioning is a choice, being trans isn't.

A kid is what a kid is. Whether they choose to take the enormous risk to express that is a different matter. Whether one gender construct fully works for them is also a different matter.

Their identity is what it is, how they express it though can be complicated.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2021, 08:22:07 AM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

As to the content of the request though, 'assigned female at birth' is a pretty clunky way to refer to someone.  If it's acceptable, the terms cis-woman / trans-woman seem to work better for me, and would be my preferred method of address.

The abbreviations AFAB and AMAB are also used.
Whether or not something is a clunky way to refer to someone should be of lesser importance than those one is referring to asking to be referred to in that (potentially clunky) manner.

The clunkyness of the term is of lesser importance, that's why I was asking.  Is 'cis-woman' not acceptable to use then?

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2021, 08:33:38 AM »
There are more than two options when it comes to sex, speaking both of chromosomes and of external genitalia. Assigned at birth is the most precise way to reference the persons’ sex/gender, particularly when they do not identify with the box that was checked for them at birth.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2021, 09:00:28 AM »
There are more than two options when it comes to sex, speaking both of chromosomes and of external genitalia.

This is true.  While rare, intersex people certainly exist.  There used to (and still does in some places) exist a policy of assigning sex and performing surgeries to push an infant closer to one sex or another.  In that case 'assigned at birth' is very valid when referring to sex.


Assigned at birth is the most precise way to reference the persons’ sex/gender, particularly when they do not identify with the box that was checked for them at birth.

If a child is born with a vagina, ovaries, and XX chromosomes they aren't 'assigned' female sex, they are of female sex by definition.  They aren't 'assigned' anything, are they?

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2021, 09:09:21 AM »
I propose that we use “assigned female/male at birth” rather than using phrases such as “natural born” or “man/woman’s body”.

As to the content of the request though, 'assigned female at birth' is a pretty clunky way to refer to someone.  If it's acceptable, the terms cis-woman / trans-woman seem to work better for me, and would be my preferred method of address.

The abbreviations AFAB and AMAB are also used.
Whether or not something is a clunky way to refer to someone should be of lesser importance than those one is referring to asking to be referred to in that (potentially clunky) manner.

The clunkyness of the term is of lesser importance, that's why I was asking.  Is 'cis-woman' not acceptable to use then?
Probably? I'm not entirely sure, but I know I have seen AFAB and AMAB used so I wanted to mention it.


There are more than two options when it comes to sex, speaking both of chromosomes and of external genitalia.

This is true.  While rare, intersex people certainly exist.  There used to (and still does in some places) exist a policy of assigning sex and performing surgeries to push an infant closer to one sex or another.  In that case 'assigned at birth' is very valid when referring to sex.


Assigned at birth is the most precise way to reference the persons’ sex/gender, particularly when they do not identify with the box that was checked for them at birth.

If a child is born with a vagina, ovaries, and XX chromosomes they aren't 'assigned' female sex, they are of female sex by definition.  They aren't 'assigned' anything, are they?
When a child is born you don't know if they have ovaries or what chromosomes they have.*  Isn't that kind of the point? A binary decision is made based only on external genitalia, which may give the full picture in a majority of cases but definitely don't give a full picture in all cases.



* I don't think so anyway. Not having any kids myself, I'm really not sure if any kind of tests in this direction are carried out. It feels like the kind of thing everyone would know about, though.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2021, 09:14:13 AM »
@GuitarStv if any label is placed, regardless of being “correct” by genitalia, chromosome, gonads, whatever, an assignment is made.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2021, 10:07:48 AM »
It is getting more and more common place to have Amniocentesis testing done. My wife did that with our 3rd as it was advised since she was over 35. That tells you with certainly the chromosomal make up. So you have chromosomes and genitalia to tell you the sex/gender when the baby is born.

How often does someone have chromosomes and genitalia backing the same sex and end up identifying as the other sex? It's got to be a pretty low %. Not arguing its 0% but it seems knowing those 2 factors give you good odds at getting the "assignment" correct.


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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2021, 10:10:06 AM »
0.6% is the figure for transgendered persons. There is obviously not going to be chromosomal data for all of these.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2021, 10:20:07 AM »
0.6% is the figure for transgendered persons. There is obviously not going to be chromosomal data for all of these.

Yes of course.

But, for the ones who do have the chromosomal data ( along with seeing the genitalia at birth ) we can conclude without much fear of being incorrect that we know the gender.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2021, 10:27:03 AM »
What’s your point? Assigning gender based on external genitalia is an educated guess. The topic of conversation here is persons who represent exceptions to this system of educated guessing.

Tyler durden

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2021, 10:38:25 AM »
What’s your point? Assigning gender based on external genitalia is an educated guess. The topic of conversation here is persons who represent exceptions to this system of educated guessing.

Upthread Guitarstv made a point about knowing the chromosomes and seeing the genitalia and how that isn't really "assignment" Moonwaves then commented that we dont know the childs chromosomes. So i chimed in with the fact its getting more common to actually know what the chromosomes are.

Whats my point? No more than you stated. That an educated guess with the above data is likely to be correct.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2021, 10:44:29 AM »
Oh yeah, for sure it’s usually correct. But it’s still an assignment, even if it’s correct.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2021, 10:48:23 AM »
So, important to note . . . I was talking about sex, not gender.

Gender cannot be known until the child is old enough to tell us what it is.

darkadams00

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2021, 11:03:51 AM »
I think that the perception problem comes largely from two sources:
- concern that there exists an unfair advantage from being born male
- transphobia

If we can address the first point scientifically and in a reasonable manner, then it should be easier to stamp out the second.

I can respect the effort to have dialog on this issue, but why is there no room in your thought process to address the fact that many people just don’t understand the trans issue more than a definition? I know hundreds of people across several socioeconomic, racial, educational, and religious levels who don’t know a transgender person in their entire life experience. They’re wondering about transgender athletes playing on their Little League and PeeWee teams—even though they’re totally fine with coed sports at that level. Boys/girls on the same team—no issue for almost twenty years. But media feeds are beginning to exceed life experience for many people, and as soon as they ask questions and express sincere doubts, they’re labeled, “trans phobes”? I work in a global company with >10k employees and consult with similar size companies and govt agencies, and I only know two. How quickly would that go to zero for people with a smaller work/social circle?

Also, “stamping out” is not an appropriate mindset. It pushes the argument into an “us” vs “them” and asserts your position is the most preferable/enlightened based on your opinion. If you’re really having a dialog, is there a possibility that you’re wrong? When we’re still dealing with > 100 years of loaded race language and still discussing mainstream LGBT issues from the 00s, it’s a lot to ask culturally to just keep expanding the dialog/group/idea before we’ve come close to addressing earlier issues across the various social/public/private sectors. And that’s just the biology. Then there’s all the questions about the language and grammar that’s being changed. Where’s the liberty to say, “Wait! What?” without a label or assigning bad character/judgment.

No need to derail the dialog here, but language like this does begin to wander into virtue signaling territory (IMO). Sometimes respect is demonstrated in the words not said. Declaring a dialog doesn’t make it so. Carry on.

I've interpreted the gist of your bolded argument as the idea that cis people should be allowed time to come to an understanding of the new terms being created and used, and to be allowed to ask wtf they mean, without being labeled as transphobic. Have I got that correct?

In the interest of time, I'm going to rely to what I believe you're arguing. If I'm wrong, then correct me and we can move along.

The error in the argument you've set up is egocentrism. The terms being created aren't for you. They are for trans, non-binary, genderqueer people. The pace of these non-cis people's development, and their creation of new language has nothing to do with you.  The fact that you don't understand the new language is not the problem of the non-cis folks.

It's true that sometimes those who are truly seeking understanding and harmony ask questions, and get called names they don't like. The proper response, as an adult, is to figure out the right way to ask questions. My suggestion, particularly if you're lacking non-cis friends, is to figure out how to become involved in a young teenager's life. It's a three-fold solution. The kids are still young enough they just assume you won't be cool, so you don't have to front; the kids get the benefit of getting to guide an adult, which is a great life lesson; and you walk away educated, without offending anyone.

The kids are all right, and they are hella queer. They don't have to wait for permission to start using the language they want to use.

Language was a smaller focus in my comment. I agree that language can and will change—but only as meaningfully as the broader society adopts such changes into the mainstream (e.g. numerous minority-related names/terms have fallen in/out of favor).  Trans-related language is changing so rapidly, it may take a long time just to stabilize enough to become part of the accepted mainstream. We already have policies with included definitions and guidelines that are outdated before they are approved—and some of these claim to be based on science which is also still in flux. If the expectation is for the general population to adopt and use trans-related terms and definitions in policies, guidelines, etc, there has to be a period where an established lexicon of sorts is communicated and discussed and in some cases terms even becoming a public no-no (I say lexicon because there is much more language in play here than just moving from one noun to another). Minorities could prefer certain terms to be used/not used, but for that to happen takes time—not the speed of IG/FB. The group members can call themselves whatever they want, but until the broader audience can catch up, many “outsiders” will just throw up their hands and say “Get back to me when you figure it out.” If the broader audience can’t use “correct terminology,” then the conversation to actual policies breaks down because activist members who live their experience daily often insist that “you can’t make policy about us if you don’t understand us and you can’t understand us if you can’t call us by the correct names.” And policy makers (the real focus of this discussion) are usually going to be outsiders to this group if for no other reason than sample size. So yes, words do matter, and a group has to choose if that’s just going to be words in the street or not. They have to learn to communicate to policy makers if they want policies enacted on their behalf.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2021, 11:04:56 AM »
Right. But it is still an assignment. If I put the socks in the sock drawer I still assigned the the socks drawer.

Jenny Wren

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2021, 11:55:41 AM »


Language was a smaller focus in my comment. I agree that language can and will change—but only as meaningfully as the broader society adopts such changes into the mainstream (e.g. numerous minority-related names/terms have fallen in/out of favor).  Trans-related language is changing so rapidly, it may take a long time just to stabilize enough to become part of the accepted mainstream.

I'm not sure what the pushback is on preferred language. The way preferred language becomes known is exactly what happened upthread. Someone used a term that is considered hurtful by the community, someone else shared the preferred terminology. There was no need for anyone to be offended on either side. All that is done is the individuals note the preference and move forward and try to respect it. Sure, it takes time to become widespread in use, but it starts with providing correction when the non-preferred terms are used.

An example that isn't charged socially or politically: My name is Jen. If someone calls me Jennifer, I tell them I prefer Jen and we continue the conversation. They don't explain to me how they have never known a Jen before and only Jennifers and that it is going to take time for them and everyone like them that has only known Jennifers to remember to call me Jen. It doesn't matter if the mainstream usage for people named Jen remains Jennifer, it only matters if those who have learned the preferred term continue to use Jennifer against my wishes. Know better, do better, and all of that. Preferred terminology, no matter the group we are talking about, is ideally handled the exact same way.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #83 on: July 06, 2021, 12:04:55 PM »
I've interpreted the gist of your bolded argument as the idea that cis people should be allowed time to come to an understanding of the new terms being created and used, and to be allowed to ask wtf they mean, without being labeled as transphobic. Have I got that correct?

In the interest of time, I'm going to rely to what I believe you're arguing. If I'm wrong, then correct me and we can move along.

The error in the argument you've set up is egocentrism. The terms being created aren't for you. They are for trans, non-binary, genderqueer people. The pace of these non-cis people's development, and their creation of new language has nothing to do with you.  The fact that you don't understand the new language is not the problem of the non-cis folks.

It's true that sometimes those who are truly seeking understanding and harmony ask questions, and get called names they don't like. The proper response, as an adult, is to figure out the right way to ask questions. My suggestion, particularly if you're lacking non-cis friends, is to figure out how to become involved in a young teenager's life. It's a three-fold solution. The kids are still young enough they just assume you won't be cool, so you don't have to front; the kids get the benefit of getting to guide an adult, which is a great life lesson; and you walk away educated, without offending anyone.

The kids are all right, and they are hella queer. They don't have to wait for permission to start using the language they want to use.

Language was a smaller focus in my comment. I agree that language can and will change—but only as meaningfully as the broader society adopts such changes into the mainstream (e.g. numerous minority-related names/terms have fallen in/out of favor).  Trans-related language is changing so rapidly, it may take a long time just to stabilize enough to become part of the accepted mainstream. We already have policies with included definitions and guidelines that are outdated before they are approved—and some of these claim to be based on science which is also still in flux. If the expectation is for the general population to adopt and use trans-related terms and definitions in policies, guidelines, etc, there has to be a period where an established lexicon of sorts is communicated and discussed and in some cases terms even becoming a public no-no (I say lexicon because there is much more language in play here than just moving from one noun to another). Minorities could prefer certain terms to be used/not used, but for that to happen takes time—not the speed of IG/FB. The group members can call themselves whatever they want, but until the broader audience can catch up, many “outsiders” will just throw up their hands and say “Get back to me when you figure it out.” If the broader audience can’t use “correct terminology,” then the conversation to actual policies breaks down because activist members who live their experience daily often insist that “you can’t make policy about us if you don’t understand us and you can’t understand us if you can’t call us by the correct names.” And policy makers (the real focus of this discussion) are usually going to be outsiders to this group if for no other reason than sample size. So yes, words do matter, and a group has to choose if that’s just going to be words in the street or not. They have to learn to communicate to policy makers if they want policies enacted on their behalf.

Okay, what is the larger focus of your comment?

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2021, 12:21:30 PM »
Right. But it is still an assignment. If I put the socks in the sock drawer I still assigned the the socks drawer.


I'm going to be super pedantic here to explain my reasoning on rejecting your logic, please forgive me.

If you see a sock which that meets whatever the definition of a sock is, the sock is a sock.  It doesn't need to be 'assigned' the name sock.  Moving the sock into a sock drawer simply moves it's location.  It doesn't assign it to become a sock.  It just is a sock - by definition.  The sock would still be a sock if you called it a 'potato'.  Assignment in this instance doesn't really come into play - just recognition that an object meets the definition of the word.

By the same token, a person who was born fully meeting the definition of 'female sex' is female sex.  This is true if the doctor writes down 'girl' on a form, or if the baby is born in the woods somewhere and nobody observes the event.  It's even true if the doctor writes down 'boy' by accident on the form.  No assignment ever needs to take place for the baby to be sexually female.

Sex and gender are different in this regard.  Gender is a flexible societally created and loosely defined construct.  There's lots of leeway here, so I can see the argument that this is always a judgement call (or assignment).  There are clear biological definitions for sex though, male and female (and the occasional edge case of intersex).  Biological sexing is not an assignment (it doesn't create a male or female), it's a recognition of something meeting the definition of a term.

MudPuppy

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2021, 12:51:14 PM »
I don’t know that we’re going to agree here. Sex doesn’t exist as an exclusive binary any more than gender does, there just happen to be more tangible markers to point to if you’re looking for a box to check.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2021, 01:01:50 PM »
I don’t know that we’re going to agree here. Sex doesn’t exist as an exclusive binary any more than gender does, there just happen to be more tangible markers to point to if you’re looking for a box to check.

I don't believe that I said that sex exists as an exclusive binary, and am a little confused by your fixation on checking boxes.  No box needs to be checked to recognize the biological sex of a person or animal.  There is no subjective decision being made in recognizing sex.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2021, 01:04:16 PM »

Okay, what is the larger focus of your comment?

Attributing bad intent (transphobia) to people as the only other option does nothing to move the needle in the dialog. There are real reasons why people form their opinions, and to not give them any air to voice their opinion without judgment simply swings the pendulum from favoring the majority to favoring the minority without convincing the majority of the why. It does nothing to help either side come to any understanding of the other. I work in fraud and compliance. All fraud can be demonstrated as a form of non-compliance, but not all non-compliance is fraud. Fraud speaks to intent. Transphobia speaks to intent. GuitarStv concurred with his follow-up that his “stamping out” verbiage on his part was related to his connection to transphobic intent, not to this more general disagreement.

The quick (and sometimes unintended) tendency to jump to the negative extreme label, “x”-phobe, can be a lazy way to say “I don’t respect your opinion.” A disagreement is not always hate. A different opinion is not always hate. A different personal preference is not always hate. But they can be. Online/mainstream media and social platforms are full of “you’re either with me, or you’re “x”-phobic.” The bar for hate labeling is extremely low, and discussions can easily devolve into two sides unless conscious efforts are taken to keep the open minds requested in a opening comment. And I doubt calling anyone a transphobe in or related to a policy decision will gain much favor. After all, the easiest course of action is to just say “No. Next!”

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2021, 02:31:34 PM »
In biology, we don't assign sex arbitrarily via genitalia and chromosomes anymore. The defining characteristics of sex are still in flux as we learn more about everything from the human genome to neuroscience, but it is now accepted scientifically that there aren't  only two sexes. Sexual organs are typically (although not always, i.e. androgen sensitivity syndrome) determined by the XY chromosomal distribution, there are other factors beyond these chromosomes that also impact sex both physically and chemically/hormonally. This Scientific American article touches on the subject shallowly, but there is no shortage of in depth studies on the subject of biological sex in humans that are easy enough to find if one is interested in reading further.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

Sex, like gender, is a spectrum. Sex is influenced by a variety of biological factors and then assigned at birth using those factors that are the easiest to recognize and test for, but this is not truly accurate. For most people it is accurate enough for us to get through life, but this is not always the case.


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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2021, 02:51:06 PM »
As I read this thread and the other one about whats wrong with men, I'm going to attempt to tie them together a little. This thread started off with trans women and their involvement in sports.

Per the whats wrong with men thread - in short as ive been reading it, it confirms what most people know. Since oh... forever, women have been getting the short end of the stick. And continue to do so in terms of sexual harassments etc.

What this thread is talking about, is making way for trans women to be in sports. My concern is now once again women / young girls are going to be the ones who end up getting screwed over. It all depends on what type of accommodations we make for trans women in the sports world. Already one women lost her spot to a biological man in that weighlifting competition. sooo what ? to bad so sad for her?

Someone mentioned upthread .6% of people are trans. I'm going to stick with that. Women/girls make up what? 49.5% of the population. I dont like the idea of making the 49.5% suffer ( suffer might be to strong a word referring to playing sports ) needlessy more to accommodate such a small %. If sports are opened up and we dont have the boy girl men women leagues like we do now, i think that ends very poorly for women who play sports. Men will be fine. Men sports will be fine. There will be no negative impact.

Take a typical highschool in the US. Their are 4 teams for most major sports. Varsity JV Mens an  Varsity JV womens. In the pros its the same separation. Same for college. If at any level it was just who ever is best gets to play their would be no women in sports. And when i say none, i mean virtually none.

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

15 year old boys, roust the best women in the world in soccer. There would be no women left in sports if it were left to pure athletic ability.

I want to see Serena Williams play tennis. She is remarkable.

https://www.essentiallysports.com/tennis-news-wta-atp-i-would-lose-6-0-6-0-in-five-minutes-serena-williams-on-playing-against-andy-murray/

“If I were to play Andy Murray, I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes. No, it’s true. It’s a completely different sport. The men are a lot faster and they serve harder, they hit harder, it’s just a different game.”

This is a ramble, but the point im attempting to make is this. I hope we find a way to let trans people play sports ( they dont need to suffer more either ) and at the same time dont completely ruin sports for girls by eliminating the boy/girl divide.

I dont have much to contribute in terms of what people should be called or any of that.

CodingHare

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2021, 03:04:57 PM »
The way I look at it, trans women may have some advantage over cis women in a given sport.  But I don't see why that should matter.

Should basketball forbid men over a certain height from playing?  After all, modern pro basketball discriminates against short men.  Shouldn't we level the playing field?

Should Michael Phelps be stripped of his Olympic medals? Just look at the guy, his genetics gave him the perfect body for swimming.  Why shouldn't we discount his effort in training and say it is not fair for him to compete with other men due to his biology?  Make a Phelps only league?

To me, trans women are women.  They work just as hard as any other athlete to perfect their sport.  I don't feel devalued as a woman because other women are better at soccer than me, or weight lifting, or judo.  I know they a) worked their asses off to be able to compete and b) probably had better genetics than me.  It's okay for people to be naturally better at things than other people.  Not everything has to split into tiny boxes so we can all get a gold star.

Also I think it's crappy that the only major trans issues being talked about in the general media is how trans people are *gasp* using the bathroom for their gender and *gasp* daring to play sports in public.  Because obviously we must devote all of our time and air to worry about how things impact cis people, nevermind how many trans teens are dying due to unsupportive environments.  But think of the sportsball!

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #91 on: July 06, 2021, 03:23:24 PM »
Very interesting, there's a difference between gender and sex!     I feel like I've completely missed this aspect of society's development.    I take it this is now pretty mainstream?   The government of Canada even has an official definition:

Quote
Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.

Is there any other terminology I should know about?   IIRC Jordan Peterson was going on about using a new pronoun, zhe, or something similar.

Is there a name for a gender that is the equivalent of a hermaphrodite sex?   i.e. both male and female at the same time?


GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #92 on: July 06, 2021, 03:29:33 PM »
In biology, we don't assign sex arbitrarily via genitalia and chromosomes anymore. The defining characteristics of sex are still in flux as we learn more about everything from the human genome to neuroscience, but it is now accepted scientifically that there aren't  only two sexes. Sexual organs are typically (although not always, i.e. androgen sensitivity syndrome) determined by the XY chromosomal distribution, there are other factors beyond these chromosomes that also impact sex both physically and chemically/hormonally. This Scientific American article touches on the subject shallowly, but there is no shortage of in depth studies on the subject of biological sex in humans that are easy enough to find if one is interested in reading further.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

I don't get it.

Unless I'm misreading it, there isn't anything in that article that contradicts what I've been typing.  The vast majority of people fall into male/female classification, the occasional exceptions are considered intersex.  The article goes into significant detail covering the entire gamut of rare intersex conditions - from hermaphroditism, to chromosomal/gonadal mismatch due to mutation or chimarism, mosaicism due to absorption of a fetal twin, etc. - but doesn't seem to add anything new or different to the discussion of biological sex.  The click-bait-y title is also a bit off-putting - given that doctors and scientists have known of intersex people since Richard Goldschmidt coined the term in 1917.  The idea that there is more than just male/female is more than a century old, so certainly not all that new.

There doesn't seem to be anything written there that argues that the 'male' and 'female' sexes don't clearly exist and that people aren't predominantly one or the other, with rare instances of instances of intersex occurring occasionally.

Am I being obtuse?

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #93 on: July 06, 2021, 03:37:15 PM »
The way I look at it, trans women may have some advantage over cis women in a given sport.  But I don't see why that should matter.

Should basketball forbid men over a certain height from playing?  After all, modern pro basketball discriminates against short men.  Shouldn't we level the playing field?

Should Michael Phelps be stripped of his Olympic medals? Just look at the guy, his genetics gave him the perfect body for swimming.  Why shouldn't we discount his effort in training and say it is not fair for him to compete with other men due to his biology?  Make a Phelps only league?

To me, trans women are women.  They work just as hard as any other athlete to perfect their sport.  I don't feel devalued as a woman because other women are better at soccer than me, or weight lifting, or judo.  I know they a) worked their asses off to be able to compete and b) probably had better genetics than me.  It's okay for people to be naturally better at things than other people.  Not everything has to split into tiny boxes so we can all get a gold star.

Do you believe that women's sport should exist at all, or should there just be one category of sport that allows any athlete to play?




Also I think it's crappy that the only major trans issues being talked about in the general media is how trans people are *gasp* using the bathroom for their gender and *gasp* daring to play sports in public.  Because obviously we must devote all of our time and air to worry about how things impact cis people, nevermind how many trans teens are dying due to unsupportive environments.  But think of the sportsball!

I think that this occurs not because sport is more important than anything else . . . but simply because sport is extremely visible and out there for everyone to see.  (The bathroom thing always seemed to me like a carefully chosen issue that transphobic folks hoped would build anti-trans support, although I'm open to other interpretations.)

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #94 on: July 06, 2021, 03:38:37 PM »
@GuitarStv the point is that nature doesn’t rubber stamp creatures with a male/female/neither/both stamp. The need to assign a category to sex is uniquely human, because nature doesn’t give a shit.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #95 on: July 06, 2021, 03:45:28 PM »
Very interesting, there's a difference between gender and sex!     I feel like I've completely missed this aspect of society's development.    I take it this is now pretty mainstream?   The government of Canada even has an official definition:

Quote
Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.

Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people. It influences how people perceive themselves and each other, how they act and interact, and the distribution of power and resources in society. Gender identity is not confined to a binary (girl/woman, boy/man) nor is it static; it exists along a continuum and can change over time. There is considerable diversity in how individuals and groups understand, experience and express gender through the roles they take on, the expectations placed on them, relations with others and the complex ways that gender is institutionalized in society.

Is there any other terminology I should know about?   IIRC Jordan Peterson was going on about using a new pronoun, zhe, or something similar.

Is there a name for a gender that is the equivalent of a hermaphrodite sex?   i.e. both male and female at the same time?


For pronouns, just ask someone what their pronouns are! It’s no weirder than making sure you’re pronouncing their name correctly or using a preferred nickname. I think it’s easy to get bogged down in “new” pronouns because we are forgetting that language is constantly evolving and that it’s happening in real time. Language adds and subtracts and borrows and morphs words all the time. Neo pronouns like zhe are just our languages adapting to the messages we need to communicate.

The term for “both” male and female is intersex. I think https://www.genderbread.org/ is a decent place to start if you’re looking to learn more about sex/gender identity/gender expression/sexual attraction.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #96 on: July 06, 2021, 03:46:50 PM »
@GuitarStv the point is that nature doesn’t rubber stamp creatures with a male/female/neither/both stamp. The need to assign a category to sex is uniquely human, because nature doesn’t give a shit.

As a child who tried unsuccessfully to breed two male turtles for years, I can attest that nature does sometimes give a shit.  :P

Classification basically is biology, isn't it?  Kingdom-Phylum-Class-Order-Family-Genus-Species and all that - the whole science is based upon observing and classifying.  Or did I just have a shitty biology class with lots of memorizing?

MudPuppy

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #97 on: July 06, 2021, 03:56:22 PM »
Nature also do not give a shit about that the names we give species. As far breeding two male turtles, that means they didn’t work for that purpose, not that there was anything weird about the turtles a male and female turtle in which one member was infertile or for whatever reasons the other breeding conditions were not met would have had the same outcome.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #98 on: July 06, 2021, 04:03:29 PM »

Okay, what is the larger focus of your comment?

Attributing bad intent (transphobia) to people as the only other option does nothing to move the needle in the dialog. There are real reasons why people form their opinions, and to not give them any air to voice their opinion without judgment simply swings the pendulum from favoring the majority to favoring the minority without convincing the majority of the why. It does nothing to help either side come to any understanding of the other. I work in fraud and compliance. All fraud can be demonstrated as a form of non-compliance, but not all non-compliance is fraud. Fraud speaks to intent. Transphobia speaks to intent. GuitarStv concurred with his follow-up that his “stamping out” verbiage on his part was related to his connection to transphobic intent, not to this more general disagreement.

The quick (and sometimes unintended) tendency to jump to the negative extreme label, “x”-phobe, can be a lazy way to say “I don’t respect your opinion.” A disagreement is not always hate. A different opinion is not always hate. A different personal preference is not always hate. But they can be. Online/mainstream media and social platforms are full of “you’re either with me, or you’re “x”-phobic.” The bar for hate labeling is extremely low, and discussions can easily devolve into two sides unless conscious efforts are taken to keep the open minds requested in a opening comment. And I doubt calling anyone a transphobe in or related to a policy decision will gain much favor. After all, the easiest course of action is to just say “No. Next!”

Okay, I understand your argument better now. Thank you for the elaboration. You’ve got two main thrusts:

1. The language used to talk about trans folx is evolving fast, and good faith efforts to keep up should not be condemned as x-phobic if the cis person uses terminology the non-cis interloqutor doesn’t prefer. Agreed! In this situation (in a perfect world) what @Botany Bae said would kick in. The interlocutor would correct, and the cis person could say ‘cool, thanks. I’ll try and remember. If I slip, I’ll correct myself.’

2. Trans folx need to codify their language, so that the mainstream isn’t inconvenienced or frustrated by the pace of evolution, or the weariness of having to learn major sub-groups of thought. Particularly important for trans folx because the lack of rigidly defined platform will cause those in power will become frustrated, and refuse policy discussions out of pique.

You’re opinion is that not all disagreement is hate. Okay. Agreed. Disagreement can also be ennui, casual disregard, and laziness. I see your posts as tipping firmly into those latter categories.

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Re: Trans women and women's sports
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2021, 04:38:14 PM »
Quote
I agree for recreational sport.  Problems happen when this is applied to competitive sports though.  If you take two high level soccer teams, one mixed and one all male, the all male one will win the majority of the time.

Why do you make that assumption?

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I suppose that rules could be enacted to require a certain number of female players for both sides.  Is that what you mean?

No.