Author Topic: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site  (Read 12382 times)

SimpleCycle

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Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« on: July 01, 2017, 02:21:02 PM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

firechief

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2017, 02:37:36 PM »
I fail to see what your are talking about in either of the posts you mentioned. I guess in this day and age of safe spaces and over reaching PC, everything seems racist or homophobic to some people.

Johnez

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2017, 02:39:48 PM »
The Indian thread was called out immediately, and eventually shut down. The gay post is pretty damn blatant though. I have to say, this is one of the most "forward thinking" forums I've been on, and mods seem to do an excellent job of tamping down aggressive posts while letting discussion flourish. You reference 2 incidents a month apart, one of which already dealt with, the other not yet. In a forum this big, that's pretty good in my opinion. People are jerks, some show up here, mods deal with them. I don't see tolerance of anything like bigotry, and if two examples a month apart in a forum containing some 30,000 members and a million plus posts is all ya got, I think we have a good thing here.

Since tolerating bigotry is not a thing here, members speak up, and mods act judiciously I'm not sure what you're asking for here.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 02:41:54 PM by Johnez »

undercover

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2017, 03:36:13 PM »
I fail to see what your are talking about in either of the posts you mentioned. I guess in this day and age of safe spaces and over reaching PC, everything seems racist or homophobic to some people.
Attack the person pointing out the intellerant and improper behavior as "over PC" who "ruins the fun of us good ol boys" is a classic tactic used by bullies to create a safe space for their insentive remarks.

Every solution has a problem

retiringearly

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2017, 03:46:50 PM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.
I have not looked at the second thread you linked, but the first thread contained blatant homophobia.  And that is coming form a guy that is conservative.

privatevoid

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2017, 04:11:51 PM »
I fail to see what your are talking about in either of the posts you mentioned. I guess in this day and age of safe spaces and over reaching PC, everything seems racist or homophobic to some people.
Attack the person pointing out the intellerant and improper behavior as "over PC" who "ruins the fun of us good ol boys" is a classic tactic used by bullies to create a safe space for their insentive remarks.

While i am not accusing you of racism or homophobic or insensitive remarks, I suggest you examine your own motives for posting this response.  Some people are deeply hurt by remarks like these.  I wonder who or what are you trying to defend?  Free speach for haters?  Rationalization of racism, bullying and similar behaviors is never a good look.

PS  i dont find this site very insentitive as a rule, and i agree those examples were not the worst ever,  but still it is good if we all try to be civil and on our best, non trollish behavior.

+1. It's not funny.

deborah

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2017, 04:41:51 PM »
Yes, comments are moderated when necessary. Yes, it sometimes takes time for the moderators to get to them. Are you volunteering to become a moderator? We have very few moderators and they work for free, so it's extremely difficult for them to keep on top of things immediately.



Paul der Krake

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2017, 05:15:23 PM »
There is a fine line between criticizing shitty aspects of a culture and lumping an entire group together. It's not always super obvious where the line stands. Mods here have traditionally been pretty hands-off, with the policy of letting idiots biggots out themselves.

marty998

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2017, 05:23:15 PM »
There is a view that opinions (however insensitive, cruel or bigoted) should be left up to be debated and defeated through proper argument and exchange of words, as opposed to being censored.

I have no doubt the community will point out bad behaviour when it is required. In the first case you pointed it out, so there was no need for the world and his dog to pile on afterwards. In the case of the second the mods got around to it - bear in mind the mods have lives too, they can't read a thousand posts per day, all day everyday.

People are permitted/free to have a voice without being censored, provided laws are not being broken (no one in particular is being defamed in that post). You are in turn also free to shout them down, without also being censored.

Mac_MacGyver

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 04:52:05 AM »
There is a view that opinions (however insensitive, cruel or bigoted) should be left up to be debated and defeated through proper argument and exchange of words, as opposed to being censored.

I have no doubt the community will point out bad behaviour when it is required. In the first case you pointed it out, so there was no need for the world and his dog to pile on afterwards. In the case of the second the mods got around to it - bear in mind the mods have lives too, they can't read a thousand posts per day, all day everyday.

People are permitted/free to have a voice without being censored, provided laws are not being broken (no one in particular is being defamed in that post). You are in turn also free to shout them down, without also being censored.

+ 1

GrumpyPenguin

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2017, 05:50:18 AM »
I agree with the OP.  However, at some point, arguing with the "I don't mean to be racist/homophobic, but..." people won't go anywhere and it's probably best to just flag the moderators. 

This isn't a censorship/freespeech issue either.  The forum is part of MMM's house and it plays by his rules.  I think the mods have generally done a good job at balancing the options of allowing debate and shutting threads down that violate the terms of the forum.

GrumpyPenguin

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2017, 05:51:49 AM »
I fail to see what your are talking about in either of the posts you mentioned. I guess in this day and age of safe spaces and over reaching PC, everything seems racist or homophobic to some people.
Attack the person pointing out the intellerant and improper behavior as "over PC" who "ruins the fun of us good ol boys" is a classic tactic used by bullies to create a safe space for their insentive remarks.

While i am not accusing you of racism or homophobic or insensitive remarks, I suggest you examine your own motives for posting this response.  Some people are deeply hurt by remarks like these.  I wonder who or what are you trying to defend?  Free speach for haters?  Rationalization of racism, bullying and similar behaviors is never a good look.

PS  i dont find this site very insentitive as a rule, and i agree those examples were not the worst ever,  but still it is good if we all try to be civil and on our best, non trollish behavior.

+1. It's not funny.

+2!

Moonwaves

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2017, 06:06:52 AM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.
I don't want to comment on the actual discussion at this stage but just wanted to point out that that first post was up for 12 hours, from what I can see, before your response. And since those 12 hours were from 8 in the evening to 8 in the morning, presumably quite a few people were asleep. Don't want to excuse the homophobia at all but just wanted to mention that. And maybe it doesn't matter anyway, with people in different timezones and probably just as many night-owls here as anywhere else.
It is, of course, also true that even those who do notice these things very often don't call them out, either online or in real life.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2017, 06:21:01 AM »
Yes, comments are moderated when necessary. Yes, it sometimes takes time for the moderators to get to them. Are you volunteering to become a moderator? We have very few moderators and they work for free, so it's extremely difficult for them to keep on top of things immediately.

I think you're missing my point.  I'm not saying we need more moderation and I think our mods do a great job.  I'd like to see a shift toward more people stepping up to name racist and homophobic behavior when they see it, rather than reading past it and thinking "oh, I hope a mod takes care of that".  There is generally a thought that the community will set norms and self-police.  I personally am disappointed with the lack of response and support on these issues.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2017, 06:27:20 AM »
I have not looked at the second thread you linked, but the first thread contained blatant homophobia.  And that is coming form a guy that is conservative.

I appreciate this and your support in the other thread.

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2017, 06:44:46 AM »
There's usually no point debating with racists, homophobes, sexists (I've seen plenty of sexism on this board too.) At some point I flagged a conversation that seemed blatantly sexist to me, and the person got a warning, but didn't see their views as sexist at all and started to cry censorship. Whatever. I tried to point out why their comments were offensive, but they couldn't see or were unwilling to understand my POV and were far more upset about being censored, as though they were the victim of the situation. No acknowledgment or willingness to see another point of view.

Overall I find the mods reasonably willing to shut down offensive commenters or threads. In the thread linked to above, it seemed as though the OP has shut down the BMI conversation well enough. What else can you do other than call them out on it? Either in a comment or by flagging the mods? IRL I do not engage in debates with bigoted people, because in my experience they have chosen this viewpoint and do not want to change it. The conversation goes nowhere. All I can do is say "that's sexist / racist" and walk away from them before they start in with the usual anti-liberal rhetoric (see post above.)

There's a difference between tolerating bigoted behaviour and disengaging with it. If anyone has a better solution, I would love to hear. It would solve a lot of problems in the world today if people could have real, open minded, thoughtful and engaging conversations about these issues. But most people are not interested in engaging beyond the usual automatic responses to criticism (claiming censorship, using anti-liberal rhetoric, denying and deflecting, etc).

In the case of the BMI thread, what else can be said? I 100% agree with OPs comment there but I see the thread and think it's already been shut down and I have nothing to add.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 07:37:23 AM by Mmm_Donuts »

rothnroll

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2017, 06:49:40 AM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

You are really easily offended. Must be hard living in that bubble.
I want this website to be welcoming as well. However, I don't really care if this website fits everyone's world view. I come here for investment and money saving advice, not as a way to stand on a podium and preach to others how I think the world should be.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 06:55:07 AM by rothnroll »

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2017, 06:52:10 AM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

You are really easily offended. Must be hard living in that bubble.


Aaaaaaaand, case in point.

rothnroll

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2017, 06:56:40 AM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

You are really easily offended. Must be hard living in that bubble.


Aaaaaaaand, case in point.
Aaaaaaaaaaad, what was homophobic and racist about what I said?

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2017, 06:58:39 AM »
I was referring to my post above, about the usual anti liberal rhetoric and how difficult it is to have actual conversations about racism, sexism and homophobia. Then you came in with some anti liberal rhetoric to illustrate my point.

rothnroll

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2017, 07:08:58 AM »
I was referring to my post above, about the usual anti liberal rhetoric and how difficult it is to have actual conversations about racism, sexism and homophobia. Then you came in with some anti liberal rhetoric to illustrate my point.
That wasn't anti liberal. I wasn't condoning or supporting any action. Please do not pigeonhole me to into a category so that you can try to minimize me.
I was simply stating "don't get so easily offended."
Annnnnnddd in the next post after me someone got offended by me saying don't get easily offended. Ironic.

rothnroll

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2017, 07:11:02 AM »
But most people are not interested in engaging beyond the usual automatic responses to criticism (claiming censorship, anti liberal rhetoric, denial, etc).
That is exactly what you did to me. lol.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2017, 07:17:56 AM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

You are really easily offended. Must be hard living in that bubble.
I want this website to be welcoming as well. However, I don't really care if this website fits everyone's world view. I come here for investment and money saving advice, not as a way to stand on a podium and preach to others how I think the world should be.

What do you mean by "fits everyone's worldview"?

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2017, 07:24:07 AM »
I was referring to my post above, about the usual anti liberal rhetoric and how difficult it is to have actual conversations about racism, sexism and homophobia. Then you came in with some anti liberal rhetoric to illustrate my point.
That wasn't anti liberal. I wasn't condoning or supporting any action.

You were accusing the OP of being over sensitive. Rhetoric or not, anti-liberal or not, you were trying to delegitimize his/her viewpoint.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2017, 07:48:34 AM »
I was referring to my post above, about the usual anti liberal rhetoric and how difficult it is to have actual conversations about racism, sexism and homophobia. Then you came in with some anti liberal rhetoric to illustrate my point.
That wasn't anti liberal. I wasn't condoning or supporting any action. Please do not pigeonhole me to into a category so that you can try to minimize me.
I was simply stating "don't get so easily offended."
Annnnnnddd in the next post after me someone got offended by me saying don't get easily offended. Ironic.

Saying the correct action is to not get offended by a remark is condoning that remark.  When asked to choose between putting responsibility on the homophobe or racist or the one pointing it out, you chose the latter.

Also, as a gay person I am probably more attuned to homophobia than average, but me noticing it doesn't make it less homophobic.

rothnroll

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2017, 08:16:58 AM »
I was referring to my post above, about the usual anti liberal rhetoric and how difficult it is to have actual conversations about racism, sexism and homophobia. Then you came in with some anti liberal rhetoric to illustrate my point.
That wasn't anti liberal. I wasn't condoning or supporting any action. Please do not pigeonhole me to into a category so that you can try to minimize me.
I was simply stating "don't get so easily offended."
Annnnnnddd in the next post after me someone got offended by me saying don't get easily offended. Ironic.

Saying the correct action is to not get offended by a remark is condoning that remark.  When asked to choose between putting responsibility on the homophobe or racist or the one pointing it out, you chose the latter.
Not getting offended by something... does not mean you condone the action. It's a choice that everyone has. Please take a breath of fresh air.
I would never condone a racist or homophobic act.
Your second sentence makes no sense to me, because I did not read either thread. Also no responsibility was put on you.
I do not care what your race, gender, ethnicity, age, is. That is irrelevant.
Getting offended and trying to turn this place into some sort of utopia that fits your own "inset view here" is ridiculous.

SachaFiscal

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2017, 09:50:50 AM »
I think you are right, it is important to call out the the people making these comments even if they don't listen.  I typically don't, but I will try to do it in the future. I was very offended by the thread about Indian managers as I am Indian and supervise/lead others but definitely make an effort not to micromanage but just guide members of my team (micromanaging just annoys people and doesn't allow them to take responsibility, it doesn't grow leaders).

I think it may be a common thing for many people to try and find patterns of behavior and try to assign them to a particular race, gender, etc.  For example, you happen to have three different managers who micromanage and are of the same race so you attribute micro-managing to that race.  But to know if that is really attributable to the race you would have to do a huge study of many employees with managers of different races to determine if one race did it statistically significantly more than another. 

The truth is that there are so many factors that determine our personalities and behaviors.  Each of us has a unique combination of those factors. If we always place a race, gender, economic, sexual preference filter on when we meet and interact with people then we're just assuming a lot about them based on our own biased, probably inaccurate view based on other people who looked like them or had the same accent that we've met in the past or heard about in the news.  I would invite you over the next few weeks to try and remove that filter when interacting with people and experience what that is like. Or when you meet someone of a particular race, pretend that they are a different race and see how your thoughts about them change, if they do.

deborah

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2017, 03:37:18 PM »
If others have made my point, I don't respond. If someone obstinately sticks to a fallacy, despite others pointing it out, there is no point in continuing the thread - it just becomes adversarial.



seattlecyclone

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2017, 03:59:10 PM »
Some people are more comfortable publicly calling out insensitive speech than others. I think it's perfectly fine to refer something to the mods to have it dealt with more officially if you aren't inclined to call it out yourself. However you can't just hope the mods notice it. There are only a handful of mods and hundreds (thousands?) of new posts daily. You need to click the "Report to moderator" button to bring something to their attention.
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EnjoyIt

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2017, 04:35:22 PM »
There are two extremes: One is blatant racism which should not be tolerated in any form. The other is over reading into a comment calling it racist when there is no racism whatsoever. The rest is in the middle where there is a line between ignorance and true racism.  Some people say things not realizing they may be insensitive with absolutely no intension of insulting anyone. Some light education can help them realize their mistake.


mm1970

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2017, 04:52:04 PM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

Probably not everyone read it.  It was a blatantly homophobic comment, and completely uncalled for.

But it happened at 8:30 on a Friday night.  I rarely come to the forums on the weekend.  Today is an exception!

AZDude

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2017, 05:28:16 PM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

Do not feed the trolls. Best way to prevent that sort of thing is to ignore it and let the mods take care of things.

seattlecyclone

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2017, 05:59:32 PM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

Do not feed the trolls. Best way to prevent that sort of thing is to ignore it and let the mods take care of things.

But see my earlier post. Mods can't be expected to "take care of things" until they're alerted a problem exists. There are too many posts for the mods to read them all on their own. Click the "Report to moderator" button when warranted.
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SimpleCycle

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2017, 08:29:49 AM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

Probably not everyone read it.  It was a blatantly homophobic comment, and completely uncalled for.

But it happened at 8:30 on a Friday night.  I rarely come to the forums on the weekend.  Today is an exception!

This is fair, and on a holiday weekend.

SimpleCycle

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2017, 08:32:00 AM »
I want to start a discussion of what seems to me like an emerging issue of tolerating racism and homophobia on this site.  I personally would like to make it clear that this sort of behavior should not be tolerated in this community by users of this forum, and that we should be shutting this behavior down as members of the community rather than counting on mods to take care of it.

For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Another example is this thread, which went on for three days until a mod eventually shut it down:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/our-new-indian-overlords/

I personally value this community and want it to be welcoming for all members.  Threads and comments like these make our community less welcoming and reflect poorly on all of us for tolerating them.

Do not feed the trolls. Best way to prevent that sort of thing is to ignore it and let the mods take care of things.

But see my earlier post. Mods can't be expected to "take care of things" until they're alerted a problem exists. There are too many posts for the mods to read them all on their own. Click the "Report to moderator" button when warranted.

FWIW I both reported it to the mods and responded.

TimmyTightWad

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2017, 09:30:29 AM »
The anonymity of the internet encourages people to say things they normally wouldn't say in public. Despite the hundreds of years of evidence of homophobia and racism in our country I'm still kind of shocked at the passion and fervor that some people still have in those views. The comment section of a website that covers local news in my city is essentially full of racists filling up every article with racist rants. I find that these kind of people don't have a good grasp of history and don't really know a lot of context or nuances around certain events.

NYCMustachian

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2017, 09:38:14 AM »
I was referring to my post above, about the usual anti liberal rhetoric and how difficult it is to have actual conversations about racism, sexism and homophobia. Then you came in with some anti liberal rhetoric to illustrate my point.
That wasn't anti liberal. I wasn't condoning or supporting any action. Please do not pigeonhole me to into a category so that you can try to minimize me.
I was simply stating "don't get so easily offended."
Annnnnnddd in the next post after me someone got offended by me saying don't get easily offended. Ironic.

Saying the correct action is to not get offended by a remark is condoning that remark.  When asked to choose between putting responsibility on the homophobe or racist or the one pointing it out, you chose the latter.
Not getting offended by something... does not mean you condone the action. It's a choice that everyone has. Please take a breath of fresh air.
I would never condone a racist or homophobic act.
Your second sentence makes no sense to me, because I did not read either thread. Also no responsibility was put on you.
I do not care what your race, gender, ethnicity, age, is. That is irrelevant.
Getting offended and trying to turn this place into some sort of utopia that fits your own "inset view here" is ridiculous.

Often times getting offended is not a choice. I'm not sure who you are but is it possible that you're not offended or affected by these words because you're privileged? When people make sexist comments about women it would be so easy for me to ignore them because I'm a man.  But I try to put myself in other people's shoes to see how they would feel. With the understanding that I can never fully understand the other persons emotions because I don't have the same experiences as them. Because I'm a privileged white male. So even if I think "oh I wouldn't be offended by that if I was a woman " I give women the benefit of the doubt because I dot have the same life experiences as them. I don't put up with the same crap on an institutional level that they do.

Furthermore, stating that such homophobic or racist utterances are no big deal, normalizes the statements and therfore the racist or homophobic viewpoint.

Moonwaves

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2017, 09:47:02 AM »
Often times getting offended is not a choice. I'm not sure who you are but is it possible that you're not offended or affected by these words because you're privileged? When people make sexist comments about women it would be so easy for me to ignore them because I'm a man.  But I try to put myself in other people's shoes to see how they would feel. With the understanding that I can never fully understand the other persons emotions because I don't have the same experiences as them. Because I'm a privileged white male. So even if I think "oh I wouldn't be offended by that if I was a woman " I give women the benefit of the doubt because I dot have the same life experiences as them. I don't put up with the same crap on an institutional level that they do.

Furthermore, stating that such homophobic or racist utterances are no big deal, normalizes the statements and therfore the racist or homophobic viewpoint.
In this regard, not sure if everyone/anyone is familiar with Panti's Noble Call. It's in a similar vein and well worth a look, I think. It's on youtube (about ten minutes long): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXayhUzWnl0

Khanjar

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2017, 09:52:20 AM »
Quote
Often times getting offended is not a choice.
I disagree, and I do not manufacture people to get offended on behalf of.

NYCMustachian

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #39 on: July 03, 2017, 09:58:00 AM »
Quote
Often times getting offended is not a choice.
I disagree, and I do not manufacture people to get offended on behalf of.

Can you clairify? I don't understand what you're saying.

arebelspy

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #40 on: July 03, 2017, 12:06:52 PM »
For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Click the "Report to moderator" button when warranted.

FWIW I both reported it to the mods and responded.

I haven't read this thread (or the other thread) yet, but clicking on that link it looks to me like one of the mods edited it.

So what's the problem? 

It apparently was over the line (I haven't even read the comment, I just see moderator red text), was reported, a moderator had some time to go through and clean up reports, they agreed it broke the forum rules, and they edited it.

That seems to me like how the system should work.

Can someone explain to me the issue?
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OneCoolCat

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #41 on: July 03, 2017, 12:43:02 PM »
For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Click the "Report to moderator" button when warranted.

FWIW I both reported it to the mods and responded.

I haven't read this thread (or the other thread) yet, but clicking on that link it looks to me like one of the mods edited it.

So what's the problem? 

It apparently was over the line (I haven't even read the comment, I just see moderator red text), was reported, a moderator had some time to go through and clean up reports, they agreed it broke the forum rules, and they edited it.

That seems to me like how the system should work.

Can someone explain to me the issue?

Enlightened OP wants passive visitors to be more engaged in calling out ignorance so site is more welcoming to everyone despite their race or sexual orientation.  OP thought he/she should champion the cause by making a thread on the issue to point out our communities shortfalls in not disavowing ignorant post fast enough. 
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SimpleCycle

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2017, 12:51:46 PM »
For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Click the "Report to moderator" button when warranted.

FWIW I both reported it to the mods and responded.

I haven't read this thread (or the other thread) yet, but clicking on that link it looks to me like one of the mods edited it.

So what's the problem? 

It apparently was over the line (I haven't even read the comment, I just see moderator red text), was reported, a moderator had some time to go through and clean up reports, they agreed it broke the forum rules, and they edited it.

That seems to me like how the system should work.

Can someone explain to me the issue?

I am not criticising the moderation, I think the moderators do a good job on this site.

I am disappointed that there seems to be plenty of tolerance of these attitudes among posters, as evidenced by people who have posted here that a) there is no problem with those threads and b) I am too easily offended.  I was hoping there would be more consensus that posters should step up to set community norms that don't tolerate that behavior, but apparently I was wrong.

If the consensus is this is a function for moderation, I can abide by that.

arebelspy

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2017, 01:05:28 PM »
For example, this homophobic comment has been posted for almost 24 hours with the only response coming from me.
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/what's-your-bmi/msg1608883/#msg1608883

Click the "Report to moderator" button when warranted.

FWIW I both reported it to the mods and responded.

I haven't read this thread (or the other thread) yet, but clicking on that link it looks to me like one of the mods edited it.

So what's the problem? 

It apparently was over the line (I haven't even read the comment, I just see moderator red text), was reported, a moderator had some time to go through and clean up reports, they agreed it broke the forum rules, and they edited it.

That seems to me like how the system should work.

Can someone explain to me the issue?

I am not criticising the moderation, I think the moderators do a good job on this site.

I am disappointed that there seems to be plenty of tolerance of these attitudes among posters, as evidenced by people who have posted here that a) there is no problem with those threads and b) I am too easily offended.  I was hoping there would be more consensus that posters should step up to set community norms that don't tolerate that behavior, but apparently I was wrong.

If the consensus is this is a function for moderation, I can abide by that.

Ah, gotcha.

Yes, I agree with you.

We should all try to gently call out behaviors that are not in keeping with the type of community we'd like to cultivate.

In general, it'd be nice not to see a lot of threads devolve into calling each other out, but a gentle reminder ("That's uncalled for" type message) is a great idea.

If they're extremely blatant, mod reporting should be done as well.

I follow now; this thread is more a call to other members to step up our expectations of what others post. I agree, that would be nice. Hopefully a few people will read this, and act accordingly. That's about all we can do. :)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 01:07:02 PM by arebelspy »
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AZDude

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2017, 03:49:04 PM »
The anonymity of the internet encourages people to say things they normally wouldn't say in public. Despite the hundreds of years of evidence of homophobia and racism in our country I'm still kind of shocked at the passion and fervor that some people still have in those views. The comment section of a website that covers local news in my city is essentially full of racists filling up every article with racist rants. I find that these kind of people don't have a good grasp of history and don't really know a lot of context or nuances around certain events.

Those are trolls. People who get their kicks saying inflammatory things in order to elicit an emotional response from others. They then laugh at the hysteria. Worst thing you can do to them is ignore(and report, as others suggested). Do not respond, no matter what. Responding is what they want.

AlienRobotAnthropologist

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2017, 09:06:19 PM »
Fuck thought policing! I see absolutely nothing wrong with either of SimpleCycle's linked posts. Sure, if you try to be obtuse you can misconstrue them and find a way to be offended, but this is absolutely ridiculous! I am vehemently opposed to shutting down, censoring, or controlling the discourse of any conversations.

If you think they are legitimately racist or homophobic as you claim, (they're clearly not) the appropriate course of action is to explain why you think they are being illogical or factually incorrect in their assertions. Punishing anybody that doesn't share your views never convinces anybody that you're right but shows the affected people and all bystanders/lurkers that you're an ideological bully without real arguments. Seriously, it's been well documented that the postmodernist progressive approach to identity politics consistently drives opinion in the opposite direction because people hate being censored or otherwise controlled.

freshstash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2017, 09:50:10 PM »
If you think they are legitimately racist or homophobic as you claim, (they're clearly not) the appropriate course of action is to explain why you think they are being illogical or factually incorrect in their assertions.

Turning every conversation into a lengthy debate on why stereotyping is both factually and morally indefensible sounds exhausting and pointless, actually. This shit is stupid asshole behavior. There's no actual obligation to engage in lengthy logical debates with people who have already established themselves as assholes.

You don't have to be a "legitimate" homophobe or member of the Westboro Baptist Church to say something homophobic without thinking and get told, hey, that was an asshole thing to say. If you get told that a lot and you're not willing to take peoples' words for it, perhaps you are just doubling down on being an asshole?

arebelspy

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2017, 11:50:00 PM »
Turning every conversation into a lengthy debate on why stereotyping is both factually and morally indefensible sounds exhausting and pointless, actually. This shit is stupid asshole behavior.

+1

Fuck thought policing! I see absolutely nothing wrong with either of SimpleCycle's linked posts. Sure, if you try to be obtuse you can misconstrue them and find a way to be offended, but this is absolutely ridiculous! I am vehemently opposed to shutting down, censoring, or controlling the discourse of any conversations.

You apparently misunderstand the purpose of these forums. It is not to debate and discuss anything one wants, with anything goes.

It is to promote Mustachianism. It is to give a place to Mustachians, or potential Mustachians, to learn, get encouragement, track their progress, celebrate wins, etc.

A general life/philosophy forum, sure. I agree with you.

That's not what's going on here.

To our ends, someone being an asshole isn't helping our community, but hurting it.

Please, go share you opinion (the royal you,  racist or misoganyst in this case), but go share it where it's appropriate. Start a blog. Find a forum for discussing those things.

But here, on the MMM forums?  No, thanks, we're good.
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with a kid.
If you want to know more about me, or how we did that, or see lots of pictures, this Business Insider profile tells our story pretty well.
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You can also read my forum "Journal."

MoseyingAlong

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #48 on: July 04, 2017, 12:01:37 AM »
I've been disappointed by how threads or conversations IRL are stopped cold in their tracks by blunt accusations of homophobia/racism/sexism/ageism/etc. Sometimes that's appropriate when the speaker is being an ass on purpose. Other times it's a missed opportunity to have a discussion.

Maybe the speaker didn't realize how it sounded. Maybe they have solid reasons/evidence to back up their thought. Maybe they are looking for education. Maybe the listeners is attributing bad intentions when there aren't any.

For example, I thought the premise of the influence of gay people on fashion ideals was interesting. Yes, I understand there is a wide variety of what people find attractive. However, I could see that premise being covered in a dissertation of the influence of gay men on women's fashion and I'd like to know more about it, perhaps unconsciously. In my small, totally unscientific, non-fashion-centric world, I haven't heard anyone talk about how attractive anorexic models are. I've heard people say they can't relate to them or envision the clothes on themselves since their shape is so different. I've heard the models look unhealthy. So why is that the look designers use for their campaigns? Interesting question that could be a teachable moment, both for myself and for younger women who are looking at those models as the ideal.

There was another thread where people were sharing their experiences hanging out with older people. I thought it was a nice thread with people sharing good experiences, even if they were a little surprised by them, and might open others to the opportunity to connect with a different group of people. And someone chimed in to say it was ageism and they were more than a number. Yes, we all get that. No one was saying they only hang out with 73-year-olds, any other age is not acceptable. The ageism accusation put a damper on the conversation so instead of celebrating the relationships, it was hidden again. What good did "calling that out" do?

freshstash

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Re: Tolerance of racism and homophobia on this site
« Reply #49 on: July 04, 2017, 12:34:12 AM »
I've been disappointed by how threads or conversations IRL are stopped cold in their tracks by blunt accusations of homophobia/racism/sexism/ageism/etc. Sometimes that's appropriate when the speaker is being an ass on purpose. Other times it's a missed opportunity to have a discussion.

(...)

The ageism accusation put a damper on the conversation so instead of celebrating the relationships, it was hidden again. What good did "calling that out" do?

I want to respond to this briefly because it's a point that's very, very personally important to me. Please consider what stops the conversation in examples you are citing. Is it the callout, or is it people being uncomfortable with being called out? If people could just accept criticism and the fact that sometimes their words will carry unintended implications, the issue wouldn't exist. I could tell someone "dude that's hella homophobic" and they'd go "shit, sorry" and, I don't know, read a book and figure out why, due to taking responsibility for their own behavior. The original conversation could resume normally.

Unfortunately, what normally happens is people react defensively. This is expressed either by arguing and digging in (now derailing the original conversation) or discomfort. "Arguing" doesn't always have to take a belligerent tone, though it sometimes does. When arguing, the original offender often takes an attitude of puzzlement. The things you're saying make no sense! Please explain it to me again, in different words, five times! I just still can't see it. The person who asked them to stop can't change their entire worldview in a forum conversation somehow, and the original conversation is still thoroughly distracted from. Derailment complete and nothing of value gained.

(I'm not saying the please-explain people aren't ever sincere. Sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. But either way they're making the conversation about their inability to accept criticism and go independently figure their shit out.)

In forums, cases of arguing can lead to either belligerent or please-explain people eventually being slapped down by the mods, but sometimes the topic has to be locked anyway. Other times people are just so uncomfortable with criticism existing in a space that they leave the conversation. The mods can't stop the latter. In both cases, it wouldn't be a problem if people didn't get so defensive about it.

The point of the callout is typically to cue the offender to stop the behavior and reconsider it in light of the fact that people are letting them know they've (hopefully unintentionally) fucked up, so the original conversation can smoothly resume, and harmful shit doesn't just sit there unchallenged in the meantime. I agree that the defensiveness of people who get called out can lead to those conversations ending anyway. But I don't agree that we should sacrifice the ability to call out harmful shit on the altar of people being too defensive to take the criticism and keep the conversation going.