The Money Mustache Community
Other => Off Topic => Topic started by: LennStar on January 25, 2017, 05:23:10 AM
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original with picture and better formatting: https://steemit.com/politics/@lennstar/to-the-us-people-those-who-don-t-learn-from-history
The world looks aghast at the USA. The new president Trump is what nobody wanted to believe - as bad as he said he is. Or even worse.
He already stopped grants to science (people don't even know if they get paid at the end of month). After the White House webpages on climate change got deleted on the day of inauguration, now the EPA has to delete them, too. (Did you really think, after Trump asked for a list of scientist and staff, he will do nothing?)
The Department of Agriculture is also banned from speaking about scientific results - as are others.
Today Trump will announce the building of a great wall after already stopping a lot of immigration possibilities.
His Propaga... sorry, Speaker. His speaker already, on his first day, told blatant lies in the face of journalists, and talking about an "alternative" truth.
No, that is not idiocy or incompetence or anything on that line. That is part of establishing a new "truth"!
Why can I say that? First, because nobody that is as dumb as all this looks gets into power.
Second because I am from Germany. We already had all that.
We had someone who said "Germany first! Make Germany great again!".
We had someone who only took from other countries and not giving anything back.
We had it that university departments where closed and new ones were established, that teached "Rassenkunde".
We had it that people from a certain background were harassed, regardless of their personal conduct.
We had it that scientific results were destroyed so that nobody could use them. Of course, that was before the time of the internet. You could not just delete websites that didn't fit into your ideology back then. You needed a bit of physical work for that.
Don't say you weren't warned. You were. Several month ago. Don't feign ignorance.
Do not accept that your president decides what the truth is or who is from "a good race" or not.
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength - George Orwell, 1984
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As big of a troublemaker Clodius was, it wasn't until the Roman establishment killed him that the true demise of the Republic began.
Fear not the populist, fear the inevitable backlash against the populist.
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War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength - George Orwell, 1984
Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies). I'm in the centre and some of the things we've seen come out of liberal policies in the name of empathy are equally fucking terrifying (and possibly moreso?) because they're so insidious. They're the actual masters of doublespeak.
This is how post-modern Marxism works its magic: Keep creating victim groups indefinitely to undermine the whole fabric of existing society. The more "victims" you create, the more people don't get along, the more government steps in with laws, the bigger government becomes, the closer you are to communism. Good times, huh?
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Well, I didn't vote for him. I'm not happy about him. But there is only so much I can actually DO.
In a month or two I might be able to say "I told you so. Hope you're happy." to my mom. But right now, I doubt she'll listen. Then again, my sister did ask quite seriously if it was possible that she had some brain damage from chemotherapy, so who knows.
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A scared as I am, and rightly so, I have to say that I am very heartened by the rush of "alt" twitter accounts created for the EPA, NASA, the national parks service, and more. #resist
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Remember, the majority of Americans did not vote for the shriveled tangerine.
I'm looking aghast at the USA and I live here.
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Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies).
Huh? No, that is completely incorrect. Read Homage to Catelonia. Orwell fought the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and was explicitly, consistently, antifascist. Overall his philosophy was anti-totalitarian, which includes both fascism and the Soviet versions of communism.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
I hated Obama and what he did to the military. When he gave an order I disagreed with I saluted and moved out to implement them because he was the CDR and Chief.
Trump will be no different he will give orders I agree with and others I disagree with either way as a citizen it is my job to support him.
We had the worst choice of Presidents in American history we had to pick one of them.
I always tell my German coworkers the American two party system is like:
Someone asks would you rather I hit you with a hammer or baseball bat?
Most sane people would say neither; I don't want you to hit me at all!
In America they say that isn't a choice which one do you want.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
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The number of Godwin's Law participants on the left is really quite hilarious. I hope you guys can keep it up all 4 years. That would ensure a second term.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Sir (or Ma'am), I value your service, but this was really poor form.
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Germany simply remembers that the last time they were complicit or stood by idly while masses of people were displaced and killed history did not look too kindly upon them. Perhaps there is a lesson there that we are refusing to learn, huh?
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Trump will be no different he will give orders I agree with and others I disagree with either way as a citizen it is my job to support him.
Dead wrong. Your military oath is to defend the US constitution, not support the president.
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Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies).
Huh? No, that is completely incorrect. Read Homage to Catelonia. Orwell fought the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and was explicitly, consistently, antifascist. Overall his philosophy was anti-totalitarian, which includes both fascism and the Soviet versions of communism.
Was overgeneralizing somewhat but Orwell designed "1984" to sound the alarm in Western nations still unsure about how to approach the rise of communism. And that involves authoritarian left-wing ideologies. I am not completely incorrect at all.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
Holy fucking shit. You just out post-modernized SuperMex (and maybe even the world). Those are outrageous statements. You got everything emotive in there. Sure you don't want to add kicking puppies too?
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Trump will be no different he will give orders I agree with and others I disagree with either way as a citizen it is my job to support him.
Dead wrong. Your military oath is to defend the US constitution, not support the president.
You are correct I was referring to lawful orders. I have personally on a few occasions refused to follow orders both in and out of combat that I felt were unlawful.
Obama that I can remember never asked us to do anything unlawful.
His orders were always things that destroyed the militaries ability to fight and win or placed us in greater danger. Neither of these two items are unlawful in anyway.
As of yet a whopping 5-6 days I can't say that Trump has given any unlawful orders either.
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Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies).
Huh? No, that is completely incorrect. Read Homage to Catelonia. Orwell fought the fascists in the Spanish Civil War, and was explicitly, consistently, antifascist. Overall his philosophy was anti-totalitarian, which includes both fascism and the Soviet versions of communism.
Was overgeneralizing somewhat but Orwell designed "1984" to sound the alarm in Western nations still unsure about how to approach the rise of communism. And that involves authoritarian left-wing ideologies. I am not completely incorrect at all.
Orwell considered Soviet communism to be an extreme right ideology. He was a socialist.
The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero? What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?
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The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.
Maybe not, but the election of Trump was. People might not be able to put a finger on it, but the fear of left-wing authoritarianism was real enough to get a crazy person elected instead.
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The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.
Maybe not, but the election of Trump was. People might not be able to put a finger on it, but the fear of left-wing authoritarianism was real enough to get a crazy person elected instead.
Eh, Obama was going to steal all the guns. The fear of left-wing authoritarianism has been around for a while.
What got Trump elected was lower numbers of Democrats voting, and only within the margin of error. Clinton did not inspire. People who are worried about their guns and socialism wouldn't have voted for Sanders either.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero? What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?
Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case. I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.
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You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
Neither are Jews. It didn't stop people exactly like you from killing millions of them in the name of racial purity.
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law. There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people. To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.
By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero?
I guess the number saved depends on how public we make the crimes perpetrated by you and your coworkers. If talking about it can reduce the murder and torture down to zero I'd be pretty happy. Sadly, we're far from that at the moment . . . and the new president has indicated plans to ramp up both.
What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?
The neighhourhood that I live in is predominantly Hindu, Sunni Muslim, and Sikh. I've got plenty of experience living and working with people who are Muslim, and have many friends and neighbours who belong to the religion. I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.
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The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.
Maybe not, but the election of Trump was. People might not be able to put a finger on it, but the fear of left-wing authoritarianism was real enough to get a crazy person elected instead.
Eh, Obama was going to steal all the guns. The fear of left-wing authoritarianism has been around for a while.
What got Trump elected was lower numbers of Democrats voting, and only within the margin of error. Clinton did not inspire. People who are worried about their guns and socialism wouldn't have voted for Sanders either.
I see it totally different. Obama, who I am not a fan of overall but I give him a nod when he says something that is correct, observed that you have to be President of everybody. You can't just cast aside the people you don't agree with.
Clinton's infamous basket of deplorables comment showed how arrogant and clueless the political establishment was going into this election. It was hers to lose. I think most Americans would overlook her foreign bribes and criminal actions since we are used to that level of corruption, but the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.
You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him. Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.
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You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law. There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people. To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.
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I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.
That's a pretty good double-standard you got going on there considering the things you said about the members of the US military being like a bunch of rapist, racist, concentration camp guards. ...You know without them there's be a pretty good chance we'd all be speaking German or Japanese, right?
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero? What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?
Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case. I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.
I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.
The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.
Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.
I spent three years in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. For a complete year I lived with the Iraqi military in a remote area with 10 other Soldiers far away from any U.S. base. Before going on this mission we trained for four months in a special program that included daily Arabic language and culture classes.
We each had our own Iraqi interpreter, we taught them how to shoot, fight, and lived 24 hours a day with them for a year. We lost one to a suicide bomber. We armed them to keep them alive at a time when they were being target and killed while coming or going from leave. Ultimately we were able to get citizenship for two of them. One is a college professor and the other works translating documents for the U.S. government.
Another year I was part of a reconstruction team that managed the building of infrastructure including schools, clinics, and water supplies.
I have pulled injured Iraqis out of burning cars. I've kept them alive when wounded, I even have a crooked nose from when I was working on a wounded terrorist who regained consciousness and broke my nose while I was keeping him alive. I had to choke him unconscious and then went back to stopping his bleeding.
The bottom line is there are good and bad Muslims but to place 1.5 million individuals with a totally different cultural value system into a socialist country where women are equal to men and expect anything less than chaos is ignorant indeed.
The bottom line is I understand Arab and Muslim culture I even speak a little bit of modern standard Arabic.
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You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law. There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people. To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.
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I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.
That's a pretty good double-standard you got going on there considering the things you said about the members of the US military being like a bunch of rapist, racist, concentration camp guards. ...You know without them there's be a pretty good chance we'd all be speaking German or Japanese, right?
tu quoque
You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.
Pronounced too-kwo-kwee. Literally translating as 'you too' this fallacy is also known as the appeal to hypocrisy. It is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off someone having to defend their argument, and instead shifts the focus back on to the person making the criticism.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
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You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero? What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?
One of my best friends is a practicing Muslim. Nicest person you ever met. Gets a bit cranky during Ramadan, but I let that pass. I guess I have never "saved" her, but I have helped her out on many occasions, just as you would anyone else who is a friend.
Muslims aren't a race, no. So are you implying that all or even most Muslims are rapists, thieves and terrorists? How are we going to test if someone is a Muslim? Serious question, because I have never heard an answer that doesn't involve profiling by race, in which case you are going to miss a lot of guilty people and hurt a lot of innocents.
Islam isn't the same as radical islam. Just the same as I don't judge Christians by the most extreme members of their religion.
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...the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.
You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him. Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.
Yep! I sit in the center, but knew how this was going to play out. The smugness and PC preaching of the Democrats (while incessantly making fun of conservative values) was headed for a massive backlash. I have friends who laughed when I told them that would happen. It's conservative values that generally keep a society/community functioning in a more or less peaceful way. Unless there are general things, frameworks and certain beliefs in place we can all agree on, eveything will fall into chaos. Ridiculing it and taking repeated small axe swings at its foundations, was bound to raise severe ire.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero? What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?
Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case. I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.
I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.
The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.
Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.
I spent three years in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. For a complete year I lived with the Iraqi military in a remote area with 10 other Soldiers far away from any U.S. base. Before going on this mission we trained for four months in a special program that included daily Arabic language and culture classes.
We each had our own Iraqi interpreter, we taught them how to shoot, fight, and lived 24 hours a day with them for a year. We lost one to a suicide bomber. We armed them to keep them alive at a time when they were being target and killed while coming or going from leave. Ultimately we were able to get citizenship for two of them. One is a college professor and the other works translating documents for the U.S. government.
Another year I was part of a reconstruction team that managed the building of infrastructure including schools, clinics, and water supplies.
I have pulled injured Iraqis out of burning cars. I've kept them alive when wounded, I even have a crooked nose from when I was working on a wounded terrorist who regained consciousness and broke my nose while I was keeping him alive. I had to choke him unconscious and then went back to stopping his bleeding.
The bottom line is there are good and bad Muslims but to place 1.5 million individuals with a totally different cultural value system into a socialist country where women are equal to men and expect anything less than chaos expect 1.5 million individuals who are escaping murder, rape, famine, and torture by terrorists in their own country to stay there instead of fleeing for their lives is ignorant indeed.
The bottom line is I understand Arab and Muslim culture I even speak a little bit of modern standard Arabic.
FTFY.
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tu quoque
You avoided having to engage with criticism by turning it back on the accuser - you answered criticism with criticism.
Pronounced too-kwo-kwee. Literally translating as 'you too' this fallacy is also known as the appeal to hypocrisy. It is commonly employed as an effective red herring because it takes the heat off someone having to defend their argument, and instead shifts the focus back on to the person making the criticism.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
I know, I know--I took the course. :) ...And that's another way Trump one this: http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/23/donald-trump-first-president-turn-postmodernism/ (http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/23/donald-trump-first-president-turn-postmodernism/)
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero? What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?
Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case. I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.
Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.
You aren't stating a fact. But you are in fact being culturally racist. First of all they are "refugees" not "refuges." Secondly you are lumping ALL 1.5 million into the same broad culturally racist category.
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You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law. There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people. To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.
...
I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.
That's a pretty good double-standard you got going on there considering the things you said about the members of the US military being like a bunch of rapist, racist, concentration camp guards.
Everything that I said about the US military is current fact.
- They support child rapists in Afghanistan.
- They torture innocent people.
- They murder civilians regularly (Official count for 2016 from the White House was 64 murders, the number is put much higher by independent reporting).
- They run a concentration camp where Muslims are held indefinitely without trial or evidence (and where several suspicious 'suicides' have taken place under military watch).
...You know without them there's be a pretty good chance we'd all be speaking German or Japanese, right?
Yep. The US military did some great stuff 70 years ago, and continues to do some good around the world. That doesn't make the evil that it commits any more acceptable. You don't just get to murder your neighbour and torture his wife after living a pious life for fifty years. If anything, you should be more upset at the modern actions of the military. These people know better.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt because I have a different opinion. Listen to Fox News for five minutes, and they don't bother with mild condescension, just blatant disdain and hatred of liberals.
I have heard my whole life that liberals are stupid, naive, cowardly. That they are tyrannical and want to control peoples lives, that they are godless and soulless and hate babies.
SO PLEASE, stop the hypocrisy.
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The increased sales of '1984' in the last week is not from fear of Clinton.
Maybe not, but the election of Trump was. People might not be able to put a finger on it, but the fear of left-wing authoritarianism was real enough to get a crazy person elected instead.
+1
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You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
Germany needs to more carefully police the refugees that they've brought in, and should crack down harshly on those who have broken the law. There absolutely is a minority of violent and dangerous people. To suggest that all refugees are at fault, or all Muslims are at fault would be incorrect though.
...
I've done plenty in my whole life to help people and (this may be a shock to you) Muslims are just people, like you and me.
That's a pretty good double-standard you got going on there considering the things you said about the members of the US military being like a bunch of rapist, racist, concentration camp guards. ...You know without them there's be a pretty good chance we'd all be speaking German or Japanese, right?
This is one of the most annoying myths of WW2 that I hear from people that makes me want to rage. By the time America entered the second world war, the Germans were already being pushed back by the Russians. Please see Stalingrad.
I think it should at this point be well understood that the Americans accelerated the length that the war was won but it most certainly could have and would have been won without them.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt because I have a different opinion. Listen to Fox News for five minutes, and they don't bother with mild condescension, just blatant disdain and hatred of liberals.
I have heard my whole life that liberals are stupid, naive, cowardly. That they are tyrannical and want to control peoples lives, that they are godless and soulless and hate babies.
SO PLEASE, stop the hypocrisy.
First, I am a liberal--and score 10 on that in the Big 5 personality traits. Or, at least I thought I was until they alienated everyone by letting moonbats run the circus. And Fox? Ugh, man.... That's setting the bar low for any sort of news. I can't even watch the "five minutes" worth you're talking about. I'm saying I understand why Trump won, where it came from, and I'm actually pissed off at the liberals for going bully and freakazoid. (And for going more and more Marxist--because that's a ticket to badness.) Maybe they picked up traits from Republican outrage? I don't know. But I do know that in the past 3 or 4 years things in the left side have been getting whacky and more authoritarian than the very people they're against.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt because I have a different opinion. Listen to Fox News for five minutes, and they don't bother with mild condescension, just blatant disdain and hatred of liberals.
I have heard my whole life that liberals are stupid, naive, cowardly. That they are tyrannical and want to control peoples lives, that they are godless and soulless and hate babies.
SO PLEASE, stop the hypocrisy.
Oh come on, you don't find the condescension towards condescending liberals to be at least a little bit funny?
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.
Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is. They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions. (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
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Whether other groups are condescending or not isn't really the issue. The issue is that when you are the establishment and you are against a populist, showing such an extreme disdain for people who are genuinely skeptical of your suitability is going to damage your cause and play into the rhetoric of your opponent.
Romney got stomped because he called 45 percent of Americans parasites, so there's definitely the same behavior on both sides, but the point here is because Clinton's position in popular standing was as the establishment candidate (see all the Never Trump republicans who wanted her to win), the move was especially disastrous for her candidacy.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.
Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is. They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions. (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
I dunno. In my experience growing up in a Southern town full of religious right people, anything that wasn't "in the Bible" was evil. Harry Potter was evil, Power Rangers, trading card games, video games, anime, dancing (seriously I could keep going). Any idea labeled "liberal" was what they called "an attack on Christianity". Not exactly open minded. Just my own experience though.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.
Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is. They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions. (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
I dunno. In my experience growing up in a Southern town full of religious right people, anything that wasn't "in the Bible" was evil. Harry Potter was evil, Power Rangers, trading card games, video games, anime, dancing (seriously I could keep going). Any idea labeled "liberal" was what they called "an attack on Christianity". Not exactly open minded. Just my own experience though.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
This was basically my experience as well. My extended family is still religious and have a pattern of vehemently shutting down anyone that is outside of their belief system.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.
Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is. They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions. (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
I dunno. In my experience growing up in a Southern town full of religious right people, anything that wasn't "in the Bible" was evil. Harry Potter was evil, Power Rangers, trading card games, video games, anime, dancing (seriously I could keep going). Any idea labeled "liberal" was what they called "an attack on Christianity". Not exactly open minded. Just my own experience though.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
This was basically my experience as well. My extended family is still religious and have a pattern of vehemently shutting down anyone that is outside of their belief system.
Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.
Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. When I think about them, and how I'm sure they mock "liberal condescension" in their conversations with each other... it's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
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That's sad. Maybe it's where many people are failing and where all the disdain is coming from? I think there's very much a "Game of Thrones," mentality going on out there--"If you don't agree with me on all things, I will see you burn!" It's been my experience traveling the south that I can talk to most people freely without them freaking out. (Though they might raise an eyebrow here or there.) The range of taboo topics seems a little narrower. I'm pretty sure (thankfully!) that by definition of being on MMM most of us here are fairly receptive to trying on new ideas and approaches.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.
Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is. They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions. (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
I dunno. In my experience growing up in a Southern town full of religious right people, anything that wasn't "in the Bible" was evil. Harry Potter was evil, Power Rangers, trading card games, video games, anime, dancing (seriously I could keep going). Any idea labeled "liberal" was what they called "an attack on Christianity". Not exactly open minded. Just my own experience though.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
This was basically my experience as well. My extended family is still religious and have a pattern of vehemently shutting down anyone that is outside of their belief system.
Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.
Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. It's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
Similar experiences as well. My "alt-right" family members despise the fact the I tend to care about folks of all skin colors other than myself. That I support gay marriage etc. And my experience outside of my own family to religious types have no really bode well for me. I was much less accepting of other's views when I myself was more fully engrained in religion and considered myself a Republican based on my other views. Thankfully that was in the past. I much prefer representing myself rather than a political ideology.
I don't think there is some sort of statistic that can rightfully claim the left is more tolerant or the right is more tolerant. We all have our own experiences. As of right now trump isn't proving to anyone he is tolerant of anyone's views but his own. That doesn't bode well for the right.
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Source (several years ago): http://ava.publicreligion.org/ (http://ava.publicreligion.org/)
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Actually, Orwell was against Marxism (left-wing ideologies) and not so much facism (right-wing ideologies). I'm in the centre and some of the things we've seen come out of liberal policies in the name of empathy are equally fucking terrifying (and possibly moreso?) because they're so insidious. They're the actual masters of doublespeak.
Orwell was a deeply committed socialist, and strongly opposed to fascism. He was opposed to all forms of authoritarianism (hence his rejection of the Soviet socialist model) and believed deeply in individual rights.
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Source (several years ago): http://ava.publicreligion.org/ (http://ava.publicreligion.org/)
Well, not sure what prompted them to unfollow, but in my case, the Trump supporters on my wall openly call for Hillary being raped or killed, scream in ALL CAPS that Muslims need to all be in jail or even put to a violent death, and their friends have attacked me and threatened my personal safety. Including people who have gone out of their way to tell me how ugly I am and how my husband hates me and can't stand having sex with me. (One PMed me to tell me they can figure out where I live from my online presence and implying that it would be easy to come to my house and do me harm.)
So, you know, there's another side to this that your nice little graph isn't really taking into account.
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Source (several years ago): http://ava.publicreligion.org/ (http://ava.publicreligion.org/)
That's an irrelevant and potentially misleading data point. I don't make a habit of following friends who constantly post hateful stuff, deliberately refuse to acknowledge the views of others, and are incapable of holding a respectful and intelligent discussion. Every conversation I've had (or tried to have) with a Trump supporter has devolved into a constant slew of logical fallacies thrown at me in response.
Here's a very brief example. I have yet to experience a mutually beneficial discussion with a Trump supporter. I'm sure there are some out there, but I have not ran across any yet.
(http://i.imgur.com/U5UkwfF.png)
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Source (several years ago): http://ava.publicreligion.org/ (http://ava.publicreligion.org/)
^LMAO
I blocked someone once who wouldn't stop posting about what they ate. I suppose I am intolerant of food. I truly hope that isn't the source of your original claim. Because that is pretty freaking bad. Pretty funny though. I'll give you that.
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Source (several years ago): http://ava.publicreligion.org/ (http://ava.publicreligion.org/)
Well, not sure what prompted them to unfollow, but in my case, the Trump supporters on my wall openly call for Hillary being raped or killed, scream in ALL CAPS that Muslims need to all be in jail, and their friends have attacked me and threatened my personal safety. Including people who have gone out of their way to tell me how ugly I am and how my husband hates me and can't stand having sex with me. (One PMed me to tell me they can figure out where I live from my online presence and implying that it would be easy to come to my house and do me harm.)
So, you know, there's another side to this that your nice little graph isn't really taking into account.
Not my "nice little graph". "Nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to research to help journalists, opinion leaders, scholars, clergy, and the general public better understand debates."
I saved it years ago doing my own serious research because I couldn't figure out why exactly my northern friends were losing their shit all the time (!!) over politics even though the POTUS was the one they wanted. Meanwhile, most of the people in the south rarely did the angry rant thing. Came to the realization it was probably the snow--they get shut-in, watch too much media, go a little crazy, so lash out at the world. Never seems so bad during the summer months.
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You know, you guys, you could just ... not argue. Back in the day I ran a website that the right loved to go after, but they stopped when they realized my response would be something along the line of "okay" or "you're entitled to your beliefs." They're so used to those on the left constantly arguing with them that it throws them off when someone on the left doesn't freak out over their opinions. YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THEIR MINDS THOUGH ARGUING. EVER. The only thing that ever changes their minds is a negative personal experience. Period. But no, it's so much FUN proving your perceived superiority, right? Right!
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You know, you guys, you could just ... not argue. Back in the day I ran a website that the right loved to go after, but they stopped when they realized my response would be something along the line of "okay" or "you're entitled to your beliefs." They're so used to those on the left constantly arguing with them that it throws them off when someone on the left doesn't freak out over their opinions. YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE THEIR MINDS THOUGH ARGUING. EVER. The only thing that ever changes their minds is a negative personal experience. Period. But no, it's so much FUN proving your perceived superiority, right? Right!
That's a pervasive attitude that extends to politicians as well. To some people, there is a difference between a conversation and an argument.
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I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.
The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.
At least you admit that Trump is a problem. Admitting it is always the first step.
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I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.
The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.
At least you admit that Trump is a problem. Admitting it is always the first step.
The irony of the bolded phrase is quite incredible (https://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html).
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The irony of the bolded phrase is quite incredible (https://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html).
That's a good list (I mean that, sincerely) except that where the author thinks the US military was in the wrong he uses descriptors like "massacre", "seize", "attack", and "occupy" and where he believes they (might have been) in the right he uses nothing positive at all. :/
I wouldn't want to be accused of ad hominem again, but possibly the longest SJW biography I have ever seen: "Native American and World Indigenous Peoples Studies, Global ethnic relations and nationalism, U.S. racial relations, Crosscultural alliances, Racist/white supremacist and anti-racist movements, Environmental Justice and climate justice, Social movements, Maps and historical cartography, Geopolitics and globalization, Military interventions and military bases network."
^^ (Holy shitballs.) Nope, no preconceived notions/agendas coming out of there.
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The irony of the bolded phrase is quite incredible (https://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html).
That's a good list (I mean that, sincerely) except that where the author thinks the US military was in the wrong he uses descriptors like "massacre", "seize", "attack", and "occupy" and where he believes they (might have been) in the right he uses nothing positive at all. :/
I wouldn't want to be accused of ad hominem again, but possibly the longest SJW biography I have ever seen: "Native American and World Indigenous Peoples Studies, Global ethnic relations and nationalism, U.S. racial relations, Crosscultural alliances, Racist/white supremacist and anti-racist movements, Environmental Justice and climate justice, Social movements, Maps and historical cartography, Geopolitics and globalization, Military interventions and military bases network."
^^ (Holy shitballs.) Nope, no preconceived notions/agendas coming out of there.
I'm using that strictly for a list of dates/incidents of foreign intervention. The author's opinion doesn't change that. :)
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Thanks for that, LennStar. My German friends IRL are freaking out, too. They have been very concerned, and also really nice (offering essentially asylum if it comes to that!). One of them lived here in the US for many years during graduate school, and she was constantly a little on edge at all the flags. I hadn't known how not-OK flag waving is in Germany, except of course for football games. I hope you and your fellow citizens can continue Merkel's leadership, despite the headwinds of far-right takeovers and influence from Russia.
I find it interesting and sobering to hear perspectives from other countries, and from people here who are immigrants. I lived in Arizona during the anti-immigration upswing there, and even the Canadians I knew at work were worried about that. I can't even imagine what they think right now...though if I were Canadian I would probably think about leaving the US in case things get really bad.
Finally, I hope it gives you hope to know that there is an active and rising resistance. We are very conscious of how authoritarianism can turn out, and although many of these efforts will fail individually, my hope is that the constant pressure will prevent a complete descent into fascism. But yeah, it is worrisome. Not least of which due to the Trump supporters ready and willing to accept "alternative facts" because everything will be "tremendous" if they do.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.
IN FACT "they" did not do this.
If you compare crime rate of asylum seekers with germans, then they are roughly the same.
BUT just comparing is not enough.
If you also consider factors like age and sex (most crimes are done by young men, and that -surprise! - is also true for muslims) then their crime rate is lower.
THEN you also have to take out crimes a German cannot even do - violating movement restrictions, working without permit etc.
In the end the asylum seekers crime rate is lower then that of average German.
If you remember that we talk here about often traumatised people, often far from a family that is still in danger, pressed into a small room with several unknown people, that is really remarkable.
There were more several hundred serious attacks (like arsen) against asylum seekers (the building they were living in) though.
My friend always say how friendly and helpful to each other "his" asylum seekers are (he is working in one of the homes).
I guess muslims have the undeniable positive that they dont drink. Alcohol often makes a stressed situation dangerous.
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oh, by the way: When talking about rape please do not forget the most dangerous persons for a child are the family and friends. The uncle is way more likely (like multiples) to rape the girl then any stranger, whatever the religion of that stranger might be.
That is also the reason why the real amount of rapes differs so much from report to report. The high number of unreported cases because of those close connections.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt because I have a different opinion. Listen to Fox News for five minutes, and they don't bother with mild condescension, just blatant disdain and hatred of liberals.
I have heard my whole life that liberals are stupid, naive, cowardly. That they are tyrannical and want to control peoples lives, that they are godless and soulless and hate babies.
Yup. I spent how many years listening to Sarah Palin et al. tell me I wasn't a 'real American' because... I take public transportation to work and support gay marriage? Or hearing about how we liberals don't really love our country simply because we tend to be more skeptical of using military force. Is that not contempt, condescension, derision?
You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him. Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.
And what about all the Americans Trump has heaped scorn on? I keep hearing on the one hand that Trump was elected because people felt condescended to and insulted, and on the other that liberals need to take this as a lesson, to eat humble pie and show more empathy. But you get that liberals are people too, right? That when you elect not just a normal Republican but someone who has insulted myself and the people I love, that then asking for me to 'reach out' and 'be understanding' is asking for almost superhuman willpower?
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And what about all the Americans Trump has heaped scorn on? I keep hearing on the one hand that Trump was elected because people felt condescended to and insulted, and on the other that liberals need to take this as a lesson, to eat humble pie and show more empathy. But you get that liberals are people too, right? That when you elect not just a normal Republican but someone who has insulted myself and the people I love, that then asking for me to 'reach out' and 'be understanding' is asking for almost superhuman willpower?
The difference is Trump was the underdog populist candidate. Being acerbic and ridiculous works when you position yourself as the voice of the frustrated and unrepresented. Hillary was campaigning like she was the underdog when she wasn't.
When the dominant candidate apes the political tactics of the underdog, they undermine themselves. Hillary fashioned herself as a champion of groups which are already powerful, Trump was savvy enough to understand how to motivate those who are not happy with the status quo. When Hillary made such a broad condescending statement it harmed her standing a great deal. Trump saying outrageous things doesn't hurt him because he is a demagogue.
It's not a question of whether the other side does it too, it's a question of grasping the mindset of the electorate. When the establishment candidate lowers herself to the level of the populist candidate to a sufficient degree, it undermines her greatest assets of better public presence and greater perceived stability.
Hillary Clinton knows better but she was arrogant as were most of the elite. All Clinton had to do was not sabotage herself.
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Hillary Clinton knows better but she was arrogant as were most of the elite. All Clinton had to do was not sabotage herself.
I agree--growing up the Democrats seemed to be the party representing the hard-working blue collar citizens. At what point they decided to shift their entire platform focus to be the party of academic social engineers, climate, and identity politics, I have no idea? Most people I know have no problem whatsoever with the last two ideas but they'd rather talk about utility bills and jobs in their own communities. Even farming or urban development would be subjects which would reach more people personally. You know when you have an acquaintance who only ever wants to talk about one or two things, subjects which have no bearing whatsoever on most, and you get bored to death? The guy who wants to tell you the entire background of every single "Star Wars" character because he read the books? That. Why they decided to continually flog dead horses instead of reviving their giant wave of blue collar supporters, I don't know. (Sort of alienated and treated that group with disdain instead. ...Which is crazy.)
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Hillary Clinton knows better but she was arrogant as were most of the elite. All Clinton had to do was not sabotage herself.
I agree--growing up the Democrats seemed to be the party representing the hard-working blue collar citizens. At what point they decided to shift their entire platform focus to be the party of academic social engineers, climate, and identity politics, I have no idea? Most people I know have no problem whatsoever with the last two ideas but they'd rather talk about utility bills and jobs in their own communities. Even farming or urban development would be subjects which would reach more people personally. You know when you have an acquaintance who only ever wants to talk about one or two things, subjects which have no bearing whatsoever on most, and you get bored to death? The guy who wants to tell you the entire background of every single "Star Wars" character because he read the books? That. Why they decided to continually flog dead horses instead of reviving their giant wave of blue collar supporters, I don't know. (Sort of alienated and treated that group with disdain instead. ...Which is crazy.)
Well, it wouldn't be the first time the Democrats and Republicans have switched constituencies. It is odd how that happens, but not unprecedented.
For what anecdotes are worth, I grew up in a solid blue Yellow Dog Democrat family and Republicans were considered the black sheep. And for what it's worth, I come from what polite society calls white trash. My parents are the first generation in their respective families to be college graduates.
I have shaken hands with Charlie Stenholm on multiple occassions as a youngster. That's how Democrat we were.
My grandmother to this day believes that Republicans created cancer, worship Satan, and are responsible for the spread of homosexuality and just blames them for the weather and everything else. That's how Democrat this family was.
For a long time I considered myself a Democrat, and there are some figures in that party I still think are good people and there are some I think are good politicians. For instance I think Barack Obama is an all right fellow, but his political agenda is not something I would ever endorse. To mention him again, I think Charlie Stenholm was a pretty good legislator overall despite a few things he voted on I didn't completely agree with. I don't shit on them because of their label, but I definitely do not associate myself with that party either.
Nor am I a Republican. The Republicans often have some ideas I agree with, but as a party I think they're part of the problem.
In some ways I'm glad they're more in charge locally than the Democrats, but I also am not truly happy with the way they do things and I think there's much better ways.
However, as I grew up, I began to notice that my parents felt more and more frustrated with the Democrats. My father really was excited about Bill Clinton, until he began to do questionable things and ultimately my father said to me Clinton should have been impeached or at least resigned.
My parents are/were very politically moderate. In their view, the best president ever in their lifetime was Kennedy. They both believed that the amount and kind of government we had circa 1965 or so was perfect.
My Democrat grandparents were poor sharecroppers, who honestly believed themselves to be far better off than so many, they believed the welfare state was expanding too much when people in their economic strata became eligible for foodstamps and other services.
Overall both generations believed in welfare, but only for the truly helpless, and thought basically if you weren't an invalid you needed to pull your weight as best you could, and the government's role for most people was to stay out of the way and operate as inexpensively as possible. Basically in their worldview, the truly despondent and helpless, which is a small group of people to them, must live off the largesse of the majority. The more the Democrats strayed from this, the less loyal they were, but most of my grandparents died before SJW were a thing.
The Democrats first began to lose my parents on wedge issues like second amendment rights and abortion, and eventually, it has got to the point my mother now votes for Republicans, and my siblings and I are all fiercely independent. According to my mother, the modern Democrats are often insane and the ones that aren't seem to genuinely mean well but don't think about what they're doing.
I haven't seen an old school Southern-style Democrat in many a year. I think Charlie Stenholm was the last one.
So whatever they're doing, it's shifting their base considerably.
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Hillary Clinton knows better but she was arrogant as were most of the elite. All Clinton had to do was not sabotage herself.
I agree--growing up the Democrats seemed to be the party representing the hard-working blue collar citizens. At what point they decided to shift their entire platform focus to be the party of academic social engineers, climate, and identity politics, I have no idea? Most people I know have no problem whatsoever with the last two ideas but they'd rather talk about utility bills and jobs in their own communities. Even farming or urban development would be subjects which would reach more people personally. You know when you have an acquaintance who only ever wants to talk about one or two things, subjects which have no bearing whatsoever on most, and you get bored to death? The guy who wants to tell you the entire background of every single "Star Wars" character because he read the books? That. Why they decided to continually flog dead horses instead of reviving their giant wave of blue collar supporters, I don't know. (Sort of alienated and treated that group with disdain instead. ...Which is crazy.)
Eh, the death of the Democratic party is greatly exaggerated. One could say the same about the GOP. When did they get taken over by Tea Partiers worried about gay people? Now that that one is lost, they're moving on to...porn?!? Or maybe Mexicans -- who can tell.
Trump is an outlier. Did Rubio or Jeb or Cruz care about the pissed off union people in Michigan? Fuck no. They would've continued the same ol' appeal to Big Business that's been done by Bush and Bush. Trump appealed to people who felt like outliers being left behind and that's why he won the nomination.
The question is whether Trump can change the entire GOP party. It usually aligns with the President but there is substantial resistance, mostly because Trump is by himself -- even the Freedom Caucus was like "WTF?" on some of his ideas.
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bacchi --> Agree with that, as well! And I know this was a very difficult vote for some of my friends. The hostile polarization created by extremists has left many (sane) people feeling stranded. Indeed, they're tuning out completely and it's hard to blame them. When it comes down to building a wall or protests because someone won't make a gay wedding cake many are thinking--"Seriously--that's what you got?!! What the FUCK is going on out there?" The media likes to frenzy fringe issues but the politicians are the ones who keep feeding them.
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RESIST!
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Source (several years ago): http://ava.publicreligion.org/ (http://ava.publicreligion.org/)
Well, not sure what prompted them to unfollow, but in my case, the Trump supporters on my wall openly call for Hillary being raped or killed, scream in ALL CAPS that Muslims need to all be in jail, and their friends have attacked me and threatened my personal safety. Including people who have gone out of their way to tell me how ugly I am and how my husband hates me and can't stand having sex with me. (One PMed me to tell me they can figure out where I live from my online presence and implying that it would be easy to come to my house and do me harm.)
So, you know, there's another side to this that your nice little graph isn't really taking into account.
Not my "nice little graph". "Nonprofit, nonpartisan organization dedicated to research to help journalists, opinion leaders, scholars, clergy, and the general public better understand debates."
I saved it years ago doing my own serious research because I couldn't figure out why exactly my northern friends were losing their shit all the time (!!) over politics even though the POTUS was the one they wanted. Meanwhile, most of the people in the south rarely did the angry rant thing. Came to the realization it was probably the snow--they get shut-in, watch too much media, go a little crazy, so lash out at the world. Never seems so bad during the summer months.
Way to completely ignore every single thing I said in that post.
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I remember when Obama was elected. He was being equated to the Anti-Christ, Hitler, and a communist.
This time, the opposing crowd says Trump is a racist, he is anti-science, and is gonna destroy the environment.
The difference is.....Trump has ran on and is hellbent on convincing all his supporters and detractors of these very things. Obama never ran on taking your guns or wealth redistribution or being Antichrist. It is absolutely nuts. Trump has, or will have every branch of govt on his side. The difference is stark. We're in for a ride. Obama's years will probably be looked at as some of the best after Trump is out. Just like Clinton's years were looked back on wistfully by many after Bush. We'll see.
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Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.
Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. When I think about them, and how I'm sure they mock "liberal condescension" in their conversations with each other... it's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
This is the problem with both sides, the us vs. them mentality. They're people too (families are divided on this), they also deserve compassion. They might be jerks to you that mocked you but the President needs to represent their interests as well. The democratic bent of mocking them is a big part of electing Trump, I don't think Trump won the election, the Democrats handed it to him.
Now its time to move on and figure out where to go from here. The first party to figure out how to reach across to the other side will win the next election. Right now the Democrats are setting up to hand Trump another win. If you can't feel compassion, you will be handing Trump his second term. I don't think you want that, you need to harness the power of grassroots to get what you want. It's not just you of course, I have the same problem with my family mocking my lifestyle. I agree with your anger, I'm hoping you harness it to improve the political system on both sides.
Overall I think having Republicans and Democrats in the same family is great, its when it turns into name-calling and fighting that the beauty of public discourse fails the world.
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Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.
Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. When I think about them, and how I'm sure they mock "liberal condescension" in their conversations with each other... it's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
This is the problem with both sides, the us vs. them mentality. They're people too (families are divided on this), they also deserve compassion. They might be jerks to you that mocked you but the President needs to represent their interests as well. The democratic bent of mocking them is a big part of electing Trump, I don't think Trump won the election, the Democrats handed it to him.
Now its time to move on and figure out where to go from here. The first party to figure out how to reach across to the other side will win the next election. Right now the Democrats are setting up to hand Trump another win. If you can't feel compassion, you will be handing Trump his second term. I don't think you want that, you need to harness the power of grassroots to get what you want. It's not just you of course, I have the same problem with my family mocking my lifestyle. I agree with your anger, I'm hoping you harness it to improve the political system on both sides.
Overall I think having Republicans and Democrats in the same family is great, its when it turns into name-calling and fighting that the beauty of public discourse fails the world.
I agree. I do have to say, though, that I feel this is far more common coming from the right than the left. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence but I unfollowed a family member on Facebook because my feed was polluted with hatred. My liberal friends are concerned for the future of this country, but what I'm seeing from the conservative side is basically rants, insults, and fallacies. A conversation is impossible.
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I'm tired of hearing how condescending liberals are.....so tired of it. Stop being a snowflake who has their feelings hurt...
Were you trying to be ironic?
Condescension may hurt people's feelings, but when those people have enoigh numbers to win elections, don't be shocked that they are not very receptive to the condescending people's concerns.
The religious right is not known for being receptive to anyone else's concerns, condescending or not.
Ummm... As long as we're talking about incorrect here, it's been shown the right in the US is more open to new/conflicting ideas than the left is. They're also more tolerant of someone with different opinions. (Now don't bring up Westboro on me--there's only 45 members of that church, hardly enough to sway an election.)
Citation please.
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Me, too. My mom's entire side of the family openly mocked me when I decided to go to college. When I graduated and went on to grad school, holy hell, did the mockery get worse. Literally everything that came out of my mouth was liberal bullshit. I was essentially a laughing stock because I wanted an education.
Now, when I see them they often moan about how hard it is to make ends meet, and how "lucky" I am that I have such a good job and get to travel all around the world. I bet almost every single one of them voted for Trump. When I think about them, and how I'm sure they mock "liberal condescension" in their conversations with each other... it's kinda hard to feel a lot of compassion.
This is the problem with both sides, the us vs. them mentality. They're people too (families are divided on this), they also deserve compassion. They might be jerks to you that mocked you but the President needs to represent their interests as well. The democratic bent of mocking them is a big part of electing Trump, I don't think Trump won the election, the Democrats handed it to him.
Now its time to move on and figure out where to go from here. The first party to figure out how to reach across to the other side will win the next election. Right now the Democrats are setting up to hand Trump another win. If you can't feel compassion, you will be handing Trump his second term. I don't think you want that, you need to harness the power of grassroots to get what you want. It's not just you of course, I have the same problem with my family mocking my lifestyle. I agree with your anger, I'm hoping you harness it to improve the political system on both sides.
Overall I think having Republicans and Democrats in the same family is great, its when it turns into name-calling and fighting that the beauty of public discourse fails the world.
I agree. I do have to say, though, that I feel this is far more common coming from the right than the left. Granted, this is anecdotal evidence but I unfollowed a family member on Facebook because my feed was polluted with hatred. My liberal friends are concerned for the future of this country, but what I'm seeing from the conservative side is basically rants, insults, and fallacies. A conversation is impossible.
I must agree. All the political posts I see from the right on my social media feed -- like literally, every single thing I see in the course of a day -- is essentially mockery and hatred directed towards liberals.
All of it.
Whenever I try to get into a discussion with one of the conservative people on my feed or a friend's feed, I am IMMEDIATELY met with insults and attacks. Almost 100% of the time. Even when I try to deescalate and say, "I have been nothing but respectful to you, can we please try to have a discussion about the issues," every subsequent comment is peppered with "whiny libtard," etc.
It's exhausting. Seriously. It's enough to make one think actual dialogue is impossible.
Thankfully, I have made some progress with the Republicans in my life who didn't support Trump. But the Trump supporters seem to be unreachable.
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Source (several years ago): http://ava.publicreligion.org/ (http://ava.publicreligion.org/)
That actually is not a source that defends your position. If I unfriend someone who tells me that I should be raped because I did not vote for the anti-choice candidate, am I somehow not open to new/conflicting ideas (and yes this did happen)? No, I am removing someone dangerous from my life. Same with someone who keeps attacking you, you keep yourself safe. So again, please post a citation that actually says what you are saying.
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Obama never ran on taking your guns
Point of order, he always said "I'm not going to take your rifle, shotgun, or handgun". Considering the so-called "Assault rifle" is one of the most popular firearms and is widely owned, telling people "I'm not going to take your guns but I want to ban assault rifles" is like saying "If you like your car you can keep your car but I'm going to ban Ford F-150s, Dodge Rams, and Chevy Silverados."
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/02/did-obama-flip-flop-on-gun-control/
: So my belief is that, a., we have to enforce the laws we’ve already got, make sure that we’re keeping guns out of the hands of criminals, those who are mentally ill. We’ve done a much better job in terms of background checks, but we’ve got more to do when it comes to enforcement.
But I also share your belief that weapons that were designed for soldiers in war theaters don’t belong on our streets. And so what I’m trying to do is to get a broader conversation about how do we reduce the violence generally. Part of it is seeing if we can get an assault weapons ban reintroduced, but part of it is also looking at other sources of the violence — because, frankly, in my hometown of Chicago there’s an awful lot of violence, and they’re not using AK-47s, they’re using cheap handguns.
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I must agree. All the political posts I see from the right on my social media feed -- like literally, every single thing I see in the course of a day -- is essentially mockery and hatred directed towards liberals.
All of it.
Whenever I try to get into a discussion with one of the conservative people on my feed or a friend's feed, I am IMMEDIATELY met with insults and attacks. Almost 100% of the time. Even when I try to deescalate and say, "I have been nothing but respectful to you, can we please try to have a discussion about the issues," every subsequent comment is peppered with "whiny libtard," etc.
It's exhausting. Seriously. It's enough to make one think actual dialogue is impossible.
Thankfully, I have made some progress with the Republicans in my life who didn't support Trump. But the Trump supporters seem to be unreachable.
I'm an outsider looking in, thankfully insulated from most of it.
The numbers from the election indicate that the presidential race isn't won by converting everyone, it's won by converting about 5% of the population. Trump won by a few million votes in certain states, ignore the total popular vote, its not important since you don't need to win the most votes, just the most in certain states. Take Wisconsin as an example. it was won by 23,000 votes out of 2,800.000, less than 1%. All that needs to happen is 25,000 friends in Wisconsin need to change their minds, that's the part to remember, the margins are tiny.
Keep having polite conversations, that's the path to change. The takeaway from this election is the angrier people got at each other the more people turned to Trump. Trump will have a second term unless the vitriol is turned down fast. Every person who says "Fascist, dictator, liar" is really helping him out. His path to success was paved by those insults, although it felt fun to say those insults it was the democratic party who danced to his tune. He outsmarted the Dem's now he's the President (he got the prize, he might not be the smartest guy on earth but he knew how to pick a better team to win with).
Hopefully Americans are wiser for it in the next election, I hope they learn their lesson and take democracy seriously next time. The election is over, get ready for the next one or its going to have the same result.
Obama won by bringing people together, Trump won by dividing.
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This thread has, like others, devolved into partisan fighting among Americans. I would like to bring it back to the original poster's subject, that the world is watching in horror (Putin and Erdogan, and maybe a couple others excepted). I saw this the other day and wanted to send it out to our international friends, because the blogger here expressed the sentiment better than I probably could have:
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/01/28/dear-world-from-america/
Dear World,
We felt we needed to say something while saying something is still allowed.
We know many of you have lived under malevolent, unhinged Dictators before, but this is new for us. For its history our nation has been led by men who, despite their varying flaws and deficiencies, some of which were quite disturbing—were by and large, normal human beings. Whatever darkness in them, they had at the very least, a baseline of humanity and decency that more often than not insured rational behavior.
This man is not normal.
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I hated Obama and what he did to the military. When he gave an order I disagreed with I saluted and moved out to implement them because he was the CDR and Chief.
So, tell us; what did he do to the military?
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As those of you in Europe look to the US in horror the same thing is happening right under your noses.
I sincerely doubt that all of this is just happening without serious planning and effort. There are forces at work greater than you or I could imagine.
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Some of the leaders or people running in Europe are scary also.
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...the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.
You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him. Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.
Yep! I sit in the center, but knew how this was going to play out. The smugness and PC preaching of the Democrats (while incessantly making fun of conservative values) was headed for a massive backlash. I have friends who laughed when I told them that would happen. It's conservative values that generally keep a society/community functioning in a more or less peaceful way. Unless there are general things, frameworks and certain beliefs in place we can all agree on, eveything will fall into chaos. Ridiculing it and taking repeated small axe swings at its foundations, was bound to raise severe ire.
Shouldn't those "general things and frameworks we can agree on" include acceptance of science and facts? This era of "alternative facts" and the idea that belief/opinion outweighs objective reality is the most disturbing thing I've ever encountered.
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...the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.
You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him. Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.
Yep! I sit in the center, but knew how this was going to play out. The smugness and PC preaching of the Democrats (while incessantly making fun of conservative values) was headed for a massive backlash. I have friends who laughed when I told them that would happen. It's conservative values that generally keep a society/community functioning in a more or less peaceful way. Unless there are general things, frameworks and certain beliefs in place we can all agree on, eveything will fall into chaos. Ridiculing it and taking repeated small axe swings at its foundations, was bound to raise severe ire.
Shouldn't those "general things and frameworks we can agree on" include acceptance of science and facts? This era of "alternative facts" and the idea that belief/opinion outweighs objective reality is the most disturbing thing I've ever encountered.
Yes, acceptance of fact and science is very important as a corner stone for society and discourse.
I don't see that the current 'fake news' and 'alt facts' thing is about a direct rejection of facts, science, etc. It's about that some conservatives don't trust mainstream news, for real and fabricated betrays of objectivity. Trump capitalized on that, talk radio has been beating the drum for years. So into that vacuum is the fake news guys.
Please keep in mind also, liberals have blind spots to science and facts as well. Economics, the whole GMO thing, Vaccines (though that line of crazy seems to have been adopted by some of the right wingers recently.)
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
You do know that these "refuges" that Murkel invited into her Country against the will of the majority of her citizens have in fact raped, robed, and terrorized the German populace don't you?
By the way how many Muslims have you ever saved hero? What do you really know about them and their culture, have you ever done anything at all in your whole life to help a Muslim?
Muslim isn't a race. But cultural racism could be applied in your case. I find the rest of your comment at odds with your initial comment of applying cultural racism to 1.5 million Muslims. I mean if perpetuating cultural racism is your version of "helping" you are really confused.
I'll try to explain it to you in a more detailed way.
The individual who was giving Americans a history lesson and telling Americans what we need to do stated they were German. I was telling this individual you have your own problems why don't you stick to solving them and let us Americans worry about our own problems.
Right now the biggest problem in Germany is the 1.5 million Muslim refugees. Those refuges have in fact created havoc by raping, robing, and terrorism. If stating a fact makes me a cultural racist then I am guilty.
I spent three years in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. For a complete year I lived with the Iraqi military in a remote area with 10 other Soldiers far away from any U.S. base. Before going on this mission we trained for four months in a special program that included daily Arabic language and culture classes.
We each had our own Iraqi interpreter, we taught them how to shoot, fight, and lived 24 hours a day with them for a year. We lost one to a suicide bomber. We armed them to keep them alive at a time when they were being target and killed while coming or going from leave. Ultimately we were able to get citizenship for two of them. One is a college professor and the other works translating documents for the U.S. government.
Another year I was part of a reconstruction team that managed the building of infrastructure including schools, clinics, and water supplies.
I have pulled injured Iraqis out of burning cars. I've kept them alive when wounded, I even have a crooked nose from when I was working on a wounded terrorist who regained consciousness and broke my nose while I was keeping him alive. I had to choke him unconscious and then went back to stopping his bleeding.
The bottom line is there are good and bad Muslims but to place 1.5 million individuals with a totally different cultural value system into a socialist country where women are equal to men and expect anything less than chaos is ignorant indeed.
The bottom line is I understand Arab and Muslim culture I even speak a little bit of modern standard Arabic.
I think you are forgetting that it's because your Commander In Chief sent you to Iraq/Afghanistan is the sole reason why those millions of refugees are fleeing to Europe.
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I think you are forgetting that it's because your Commander In Chief sent you to Iraq/Afghanistan is the sole reason why those millions of refugees are fleeing to Europe.
Not quite correct.
Current refugees are mainly from Syria.
And they started to come in "waves" after the money of the UN run out, nobody wanted to pay the 600 million €, and the camps in and around Syria could no longer provide even anything to eat.
2-3 month later there was a sudden, totally surprising rise in refugess from there. Why I wonder...
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I think you are forgetting that it's because your Commander In Chief sent you to Iraq/Afghanistan is the sole reason why those millions of refugees are fleeing to Europe.
Not quite correct.
Current refugees are mainly from Syria.
And they started to come in "waves" after the money of the UN run out, nobody wanted to pay the 600 million €, and the camps in and around Syria could no longer provide even anything to eat.
2-3 month later there was a sudden, totally surprising rise in refugess from there. Why I wonder...
I'm talking about the needless US invasion of the Middle East and the resulting power vacuum.
Coming up on 20 years ago now....
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You do understand that Muslims aren't all one race right?
Neither are Jews. It didn't stop people exactly like you from killing millions of them in the name of racial purity.
[/quote]
The Jews actually are technically a race, in as much as we care to scientifically define racial groups. They have a distinguishable racial and genetic lineage that can easily be traced back thousands of years.
That of course is entirely not possible with Muslims and Christians which are religions of conversion which seek to envelope everyone.
Jews inherit their religion for the most part with most conversions only occurring due to outsiders marrying into a Jewish family. Jews historically traced Jewish heritage through the mothers bloodline to guarantee the children are certain to have at least 50% Jewish heritage. The the religion in effect spawn a race.
The use of the word racism to apply to people who are say anti Muslim I think gets the point across that the person is probably being closed minded or assigning too many assumption to a group based on one shared attribute. People who bitch about the use either are just being nit picky, which is fine, or triggered by the use of the term racist.... I think in general we can use racism as a lazy synonym for bigotry of any sort.
I don't in particular like arguing too much about words like this as it is simply usually a means to distract from the core conversation. Each group and conversation needs to quickly agree on terminology and definitions to have a clear discussion. The only time language matters is in legal writing where the agreed definitions have to be as clear as possible. I think smaller groups can take liberties with definitions to adjust for common interpretations of meanings.
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...the sheer disdain and dismissal of people who honestly have a difference of opinion as mere racists or whatever galvanized the fence sitters and rallied her opponents to a fevered pitch.
You want to get an American motivated to do something, heap scorn upon him. Yankee Doodle didn't become a popular song here because we take derision lying down.
Yep! I sit in the center, but knew how this was going to play out. The smugness and PC preaching of the Democrats (while incessantly making fun of conservative values) was headed for a massive backlash. I have friends who laughed when I told them that would happen. It's conservative values that generally keep a society/community functioning in a more or less peaceful way. Unless there are general things, frameworks and certain beliefs in place we can all agree on, eveything will fall into chaos. Ridiculing it and taking repeated small axe swings at its foundations, was bound to raise severe ire.
Shouldn't those "general things and frameworks we can agree on" include acceptance of science and facts? This era of "alternative facts" and the idea that belief/opinion outweighs objective reality is the most disturbing thing I've ever encountered.
Yes, acceptance of fact and science is very important as a corner stone for society and discourse.
I don't see that the current 'fake news' and 'alt facts' thing is about a direct rejection of facts, science, etc. It's about that some conservatives don't trust mainstream news, for real and fabricated betrays of objectivity. Trump capitalized on that, talk radio has been beating the drum for years. So into that vacuum is the fake news guys.
Please keep in mind also, liberals have blind spots to science and facts as well. Economics, the whole GMO thing, Vaccines (though that line of crazy seems to have been adopted by some of the right wingers recently.)
This is certainly true anti-science is a bipartisan and somewhat innately human failing. Science has always had to contend with, bad reporting, human intuition and peoples general distrust of things they can't easily understand. To top it all off science can be wrong in which case the best advice to follow at the moment can become the worst advice 10 years from now. That has always been a tough pill for people to swallow...
The current brand of Republicans though are famous for certain kinds of anti-science. Mainly environmental. Republicans for that last 20-30 years have been almost laughably opposed to nearly all forms of Federal environmental regulation.
Sadly I think the only thing that will change the parties tune is for the reality of mismanagement of the environment to return many parts of the country to an obvious state of health crises due to pollution. This is what made the initial founding of the EPA bipartisan and popular...
I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
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I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
[/quote]
I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring. Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
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I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring. Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
[/quote]
I actually think that this is playing a big role in Chinas undertaking of clean energy - the lawakers have to meet in Beijin regularily. And they are mostly older people who have more problems with smog. So if you have to carry around an oxygen tank in your marathon meetings it does tend to concentrate your thinking on the environmental problems, I think.
Also the loss of face is greatly felt there. You can't even keep your capital city's air breathable?
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I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
You seem to understand it, but for the benefit of others, the economic term for this is a "(negative) externality". There are cases of positive externalities, but you don't often hear about them.
It is up to the Government or Regulator to set the rules of the game so that society at large is not penalised by private profit generators.
Put another way, to dictate that a knight can move in an L shape, but to leave the choice of move up to the private sector.
The problem with taking away too many rules is that you end up with 16 queens on one side of the chess board. It's no longer a fair fight.
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I see/hear what I believe to be the GOP discussion "breaking words" so that their meanings are no longer clear. One consequence is it breaks discussion too. I think the more common word for this is "dog whistle politics".
Yes, it is a shame that we can't have political conversations using the same words, same meanings and come to some sort of happy middle ground.
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Well, I didn't vote for him. I'm not happy about him. But there is only so much I can actually DO.
In a month or two I might be able to say "I told you so. Hope you're happy." to my mom. But right now, I doubt she'll listen. Then again, my sister did ask quite seriously if it was possible that she had some brain damage from chemotherapy, so who knows.
Update! Mom has stopped screaming at me every time current events or politics come up (which I and sister avoid like the devil). Still screams at my sister, but she's more liberal than me. She's also starting to sound like she's no longer neutral on Trump. Probably because we looked at the GOP's current health care bill and told her quite bluntly that if it passes as is, she won't have health insurance.
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I suspect that the healthcare bill will get the attention of many people who voted for him...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp74MQBGMnk
Assuming that the problem is Trump is a serious simplification of what is going on in the world as a whole. IMO Trump is not the disease, he is merely a symptom.
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I suspect that the healthcare bill will get the attention of many people who voted for him...
And hasn't the promise that he does this got their attention?
It was one of his biggest election promises - after building THE WALL and THE BAN.
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I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring. Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
[/quote]
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
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Hey anything within reason that empties the roads and encourages people to walk and bike would be okay with me... I see much of this technology we are so damn dependent on (including my own Linux powered computer) as unsustainable in its current form.
We can't continue to dig raw materials out of the earth's crust at ever faster paces and then dump the two year old gadgets in a landfill. And we can't function as a nation with a political system that rejects environmental protections.
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Hey anything within reason that empties the roads and encourages people to walk and bike would be okay with me... I see much of this technology we are so damn dependent on (including my own Linux powered computer) as unsustainable in its current form.
We can't continue to dig raw materials out of the earth's crust at ever faster paces and then dump the two year old gadgets in a landfill. And we can't function as a nation with a political system that rejects environmental protections.
Absolutely. The functioning of the nation should be balanced with the protection of the environment; it's a tricky line in reality, but I feel we are generally moving in the right direction, over the past several decades.
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I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring. Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
[/quote]
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
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I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring. Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
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Or the head of the EPA (or at least several EPA employees) after the Animus River spill.
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Hey anything within reason that empties the roads and encourages people to walk and bike would be okay with me... I see much of this technology we are so damn dependent on (including my own Linux powered computer) as unsustainable in its current form.
We can't continue to dig raw materials out of the earth's crust at ever faster paces and then dump the two year old gadgets in a landfill. And we can't function as a nation with a political system that rejects environmental protections.
Absolutely. The functioning of the nation should be balanced with the protection of the environment; it's a tricky line in reality, but I feel we are generally moving in the right direction, over the past several decades.
I'd like to see our town build some bike paths that separate the pedestrians and bikers from the cars rather than widen another street or build a new street. Basically a cart path.
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I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring. Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
Or the head of the EPA (or at least several EPA employees) after the Animus River spill.
[/quote]
You mean the spill of chemicals that the private owner of the Gold King mine abandoned in 1923, that was slowly leaking out and poisoning the river anyway? Don't get me wrong, the EPA totally mishandled the situation there (and discipline should be meted out to responsible parties) . . . but the root of the problem was not the EPA.
The Gold King mine is a great example of how the free market utterly fails to handle long term pollution related problems.
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And the conservatives have a history of allowing companies not be required to label ingredients or define fracking fluids.
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I guess its easy to forget that the free market and competition among states actually encourages some states to become ridiculous polluters to bring in jobs. And often the negative impacts of pollution while greatly felt by the local population often have no negative impact on the offenders profit margin... therefor the free market's natural optimizations end up having no positive impact on protecting our air or water...
I always thought it would be nice to have a law that executives of polluting corporations and their enabling politicians should be required to live where the pollution is occurring. Think CAFOs and manure lagoons -- those guys should have to live right next door!
I agree! Imagine electric car manufacturers living right next door to the open out aluminum mine, or taking their well water from the grounds of a battery disposal site. Might see some significant changes.
Seriously, I get why you need corporations, for the liabilty of the shareholders, but still someone needs to be accountable if it goes really bad; the CEO. Think the BP oil spill. Their CEO, or at least a US representative, should have been under house arrest until it was resolved, but no, just bailout or in that case ignore.
Or the head of the EPA (or at least several EPA employees) after the Animus River spill.
You mean the spill of chemicals that the private owner of the Gold King mine abandoned in 1923, that was slowly leaking out and poisoning the river anyway? Don't get me wrong, the EPA totally mishandled the situation there (and discipline should be meted out to responsible parties) . . . but the root of the problem was not the EPA.
The Gold King mine is a great example of how the free market utterly fails to handle long term pollution related problems.
[/quote]
come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
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come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!
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come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!
Actually, as GuitarStv pointed out, the Government did find a solution. The private industry couldn't figure out how to stop the chemicals from slowly leaking into the river, so the government took over and dumped them all into the river at once. A great display of aptitude by two different systems trying to solve the same problem.
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This is how post-modern Marxism works its magic: Keep creating victim groups indefinitely to undermine the whole fabric of existing society. The more "victims" you create, the more people don't get along, the more government steps in with laws, the bigger government becomes, the closer you are to communism. Good times, huh?
Awesome construct you have there. Utterly without evidence, but fantastic nonetheless.
In practice we've seen a steady (and accelerating) increase in quality of life across the board - with some local exceptions. Globally and in our own countries. A big part of that is the gradual movement from 'us and them' into 'people are people'.
You seem to think society is perfect, and any effort to improve it is some form of marxist plot. I call bullshit.
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come'on. 90+ years and you can't figure out a solution????
Yeah, the free market would have found a solution in just 90 days!!!!
Actually, as GuitarStv pointed out, the Government did find a solution. The private industry couldn't figure out how to stop the chemicals from slowly leaking into the river, so the government took over and dumped them all into the river at once. A great display of aptitude by two different systems trying to solve the same problem.
It was a colossal screw up on the part of the federal agency in charge. Absolutely, people should be pissed about that. It's important to remember though, that this only happened because of the utter failure of the free market to find a solution . . . particularly in a thread where people are claiming that the free market would solve the problem.
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This is how post-modern Marxism works its magic: Keep creating victim groups indefinitely to undermine the whole fabric of existing society. The more "victims" you create, the more people don't get along, the more government steps in with laws, the bigger government becomes, the closer you are to communism. Good times, huh?
Awesome construct you have there. Utterly without evidence, but fantastic nonetheless.
In practice we've seen a steady (and accelerating) increase in quality of life across the board - with some local exceptions. Globally and in our own countries. A big part of that is the gradual movement from 'us and them' into 'people are people'.
You seem to think society is perfect, and any effort to improve it is some form of marxist plot. I call bullshit.
For some fascinating insights into this I suggest listening to some of Dr. Jordan Peterson's lectures, blogs, and podcasts.
Here's a start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VwG6oaFxJs
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WHOA! hold the phone here. to all foreign people who for some reason all of a sudden have a internet platform to throw in their two cents on how the States conducts itself here is what I've got to say to you!
You don't get to warn us about shit while within one human life time your country was responsible for one of the biggest most notable human genocides in history. PERIOD. Your country is still notorious for spying on it's citizens in a very similar way as it has done for the last 80 years. Where do you think we learned from?
You strike me as someone who reads and watches a lot of liberal news and forms a rash opinion and is easily made emotionally triggered. Anyone truly familiar with American politics would know that while trump is not what people wanted to vote in. He WAS voted in to send a message to the Clinton/Bush/Kennedy ect monarchy that seems to keep popping it's head up every election year.(To say we are tired of your bullshit) So that message was sent that we are using every tool we have to take the old trash out even if it means moving more but different trash in.
Lastly we need to really say this to ALOT of people. YOU ARE NOT A AMERICAN CITIZEN! Your opinion means jack shit. It means especially less given the history of WW2 WW1 and others going back 200 years. The German barbarians have been a bane on European existence for sometime now. So why don't you build your house out of something besides glass before you start skipping stones across the pond you kraut.
[MOD NOTE: Permanently banned for using racist terms and generally breaking rule #1.]
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
Not trying to get in the middle of this. Muslim is not a race it's a religion. Can't be racist against it.
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You strike me as someone who reads and watches a lot of liberal news and forms a rash opinion and is easily made emotionally triggered.
Dependign on what you mean with liberal you are right on that. The other two points could not be farer from the truth for me, but it seems they are very true for you, judging from your post.
You don't get to warn us about shit while within one human life time your country was responsible for one of the biggest most notable human genocides in history.
That is exactly WHY I warn you. I know (better then you "Amercian", who has no right to say anything about Germany according to your own words) how it happened. One mile away from where I am sitting "unworthy life" was gassed. I do not want that to happen again, anywhere on the world.
Lastly we need to really say this to ALOT of people. YOU ARE NOT An AMERICAN CITIZEN! Your opinion means jack shit.
I think that is the core of most of the problems the US has with other countries. If you ignore the opinion of other people - especially when your AMERICAN firms take away their land or water, your secret services incite wars or coups against democratically elected governments (US still holds the record here by far), or your army downright terror-kill their relatives - people tend to get angry and eventually shoot back in whatever way they can.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
Not trying to get in the middle of this. Muslim is not a race it's a religion. Can't be racist against it.
There are no human races, so you can't be a racist then.
Really that straw man is so old nobody even wants to write the correction. Just google it.
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You are drastically incorrect. Scientifically speaking. There are different races of humans but only one species. I think this is where you are confused. However..... Stv who this comment was aimed at not you used religion in the context of racism. You can't be racist to a religion. I think you are the one that needs to do the googleing.
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You strike me as someone who reads and watches a lot of liberal news and forms a rash opinion and is easily made emotionally triggered.
Dependign on what you mean with liberal you are right on that. The other two points could not be farer from the truth for me, but it seems they are very true for you, judging from your post.
How could it be true for me? all I am pointing out is your emotional triggers on the subject I've known of my own so far on this subject. Your post was the one that was all heated.
You don't get to warn us about shit while within one human life time your country was responsible for one of the biggest most notable human genocides in history.
That is exactly WHY I warn you. I know (better then you "Amercian", who has no right to say anything about Germany according to your own words) how it happened. One mile away from where I am sitting "unworthy life" was gassed. I do not want that to happen again, anywhere on the world.
Friend.... the world knows. You don't have some special knowledge of the atrocities your country has committed. You are not a unique special snow flake. I'd go so far as to say the general population of my country has felt the loss more keenly as we had to come clean up the mess. It caused a generational impact here.
Lastly we need to really say this to ALOT of people. YOU ARE NOT An AMERICAN CITIZEN! Your opinion means jack shit.
I think that is the core of most of the problems the US has with other countries. If you ignore the opinion of other people - especially when your AMERICAN firms take away their land or water, your secret services incite wars or coups against democratically elected governments (US still holds the record here by far), or your army downright terror-kill their relatives - people tend to get angry and eventually shoot back in whatever way they can.
Ahhh here the truth comes out with the anti-American rhetoric. Yes we ignore your opinion because we are the super power who backs the worlds currency with the best most stable democratically elected government on the planet. American firms? The US government is not responsible for every international business making a splash. You have a problem with it appeal to your government to stop it. Stop meddling in mine. Until you pay taxes here and sign up for the military piss off.
this... "people tend to get angry and eventually shoot back in whatever way they can." you actually just defended terrorism. Can you prove we incited a war or a coup? What were the alternative actions that could have been taken? What would have happened If we didn't? do you have access to all the knowledge of these same agency's? If you democratically elect a barbarian in a fixed election are they really the defacto leader?
It seems again here you are some yuppie with no concept of world politics on the larger scale. It's all your liberal apologist non sense with little concept of real world experience. My country and capitalism has single handedly pulled the majority of the planet out of poverty. So you will have to excuse me if I don't take Hitler spawn very seriously.
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Anyone whose level of political analysis includes the phrase "Clinton/Bush/Kennedy ect (sic) monarchy" is a little tough to take seriously. Sorry, PAstash.
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WHOA! hold the phone here. to all foreign people who for some reason all of a sudden have a internet platform to throw in their two cents on how the States conducts itself here is what I've got to say to you!
You don't get to warn us about shit while within one human life time your country was responsible for one of the biggest most notable human genocides in history. PERIOD. Your country is still notorious for spying on it's citizens in a very similar way as it has done for the last 80 years. Where do you think we learned from?
They may have learned it from us, seeing as the US was responsible for the deaths of millions of native americans. Or perhaps we could discuss the American slave trade?
You are making America look really bad here PAstash. I am not sure whether you have actually studied world or US history outside of a high school classroom, but I suggest you inform yourself a little more broadly. Also, telling people they don't deserve to have an opinion based on where they were born is just dumb.
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Can you prove we incited a war or a coup?
Since you seem to be unable to use a search engine, I googled it for you, this was the second result:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
You can start your education there. And no, I didn't read it. I don't need to be informed about that.
you actually just defended terrorism
I always like that repeat, because I can then always point out that it were US financed and trained terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center. Yes, your actions do come back sometimes.
The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is just who is looking at them.
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Can you prove we incited a war or a coup?
Since you seem to be unable to use a search engine, I googled it for you, this was the second result:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
You can start your education there. And no, I didn't read it. I don't need to be informed about that.
you actually just defended terrorism
I always like that repeat, because I can then always point out that it were US financed and trained terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center. Yes, your actions do come back sometimes.
The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is just who is looking at them.
Relevant: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychology-writers/201208/why-bad-guys-think-theyre-good-guys
I also have a huge problem with the "You don't live here so your opinion doesn't matter" perspective. People need to break out of their bubbles (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/arts/the-battle-over-your-political-bubble.html) and realize that there are a lot of opinions out there, and they matter to those who have them -- "I'm right and you're obviously wrong so I won't even talk about it" is not a good way to solve problems.
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I also have a huge problem with the "You don't live here so your opinion doesn't matter" perspective. People need to break out of their bubbles (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/arts/the-battle-over-your-political-bubble.html) and realize that there are a lot of opinions out there, and they matter to those who have them -- "I'm right and you're obviously wrong so I won't even talk about it" is not a good way to solve problems.
Excellent post. I have the same problem with statements like that. Everyone says they want diversity of opinion and want to hear new ideas, but in reality we mostly just want to hear things that already conform to what we already believe. And that's exactly why we need to hear opinions that differ from our own.
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Can you prove we incited a war or a coup?
Since you seem to be unable to use a search engine, I googled it for you, this was the second result:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
You can start your education there. And no, I didn't read it. I don't need to be informed about that.
you actually just defended terrorism
I always like that repeat, because I can then always point out that it were US financed and trained terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center. Yes, your actions do come back sometimes.
The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is just who is looking at them.
Relevant: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychology-writers/201208/why-bad-guys-think-theyre-good-guys
I also have a huge problem with the "You don't live here so your opinion doesn't matter" perspective. People need to break out of their bubbles (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/arts/the-battle-over-your-political-bubble.html) and realize that there are a lot of opinions out there, and they matter to those who have them -- "I'm right and you're obviously wrong so I won't even talk about it" is not a good way to solve problems.
Interesting text.
The Hitler case is one more for the "karma" thing. Hitler certainly was no devil at birth. But there were experience he and his generation had that made some things possible.
The "Schandfrieden von Versailles" as they coined it, the peace traty after WW1, placed an objectively near-impossibe burden on Germany (I think their were reparations payments for 150 years). These, together with the general '29 crisis and some errors of the German government lead to the hyperinflation, a traumatic experience still lingering in the German psyche.
It were these experiences that fired an assortment of nationalistic movements, not only in Germany. Much like Trump today it was "Germany first" and "work for Germans" that made Hitler famous and getting elected, though it's a myth that Hitler started with the Autobahn, but he definitely build a lot of them. Projects like that gave a lot of families an income and of course were crucial to the Blitzkrieg war tactic.
Everything is connected. There is no single reason. Hitler did not become dictator from one day to the other. It was a slow process, and on the start (and even in early 1939) a lot of people said he isn't that bad or even that he can be used.
And in the end the people wondered how it could have happened.
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Can you prove we incited a war or a coup?
Since you seem to be unable to use a search engine, I googled it for you, this was the second result:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/20/mapped-the-7-governments-the-u-s-has-overthrown/
You can start your education there. And no, I didn't read it. I don't need to be informed about that.
you actually just defended terrorism
I always like that repeat, because I can then always point out that it were US financed and trained terrorists that destroyed the World Trade Center. Yes, your actions do come back sometimes.
The difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is just who is looking at them.
Relevant: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psychology-writers/201208/why-bad-guys-think-theyre-good-guys
I also have a huge problem with the "You don't live here so your opinion doesn't matter" perspective. People need to break out of their bubbles (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/03/arts/the-battle-over-your-political-bubble.html) and realize that there are a lot of opinions out there, and they matter to those who have them -- "I'm right and you're obviously wrong so I won't even talk about it" is not a good way to solve problems.
Interesting text.
The Hitler case is one more for the "karma" thing. Hitler certainly was no devil at birth. But there were experience he and his generation had that made some things possible.
The "Schandfrieden von Versailles" as they coined it, the peace traty after WW1, placed an objectively near-impossibe burden on Germany (I think their were reparations payments for 150 years). These, together with the general '29 crisis and some errors of the German government lead to the hyperinflation, a traumatic experience still lingering in the German psyche.
It were these experiences that fired an assortment of nationalistic movements, not only in Germany. Much like Trump today it was "Germany first" and "work for Germans" that made Hitler famous and getting elected, though it's a myth that Hitler started with the Autobahn, but he definitely build a lot of them. Projects like that gave a lot of families an income and of course were crucial to the Blitzkrieg war tactic.
Everything is connected. There is no single reason. Hitler did not become dictator from one day to the other. It was a slow process, and on the start (and even in early 1939) a lot of people said he isn't that bad or even that he can be used.
And in the end the people wondered how it could have happened.
I read a fascinating series of articles on the rise of Hitler a while ago - it's well worth the time: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/
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Excellent discussion. Thank you b/c it gives me hope that the thinkers of the world will hopefully continue to keep things on an even keel.
I'm sure there is a word for it but what do you call it when someone rejects a whole religion? Religions often come with cultural characteristics when people are full engaged with their religion - see the Jews and the Amish. This is different from others who proclaim themselves to be a certain religion but seldom "walk the walk".
Xenophobia doesn't fit I think. And neither does racism. What should I call it?
Am reading Howard Zinn's "People's History of the United States" as suggested by someone here in the forums. History as taught in the USA (grade school and intro to history in college) glosses over SO much. And it seldom looks at history from the perspective of the "little person". American history is not the shiny example of humanity that is taught to the young children. Our gov't has done some terrible things over the past 250 years.
Look at American history from the perspective of a slave or an American Indian or as a woman. Look at it from the perspective of the man with no property and thus unable to vote but expected to fight in the government's wars. Look at it from the perspective of the poor youth drafted and sent to Vietnam or Korea knowing that their college bound classmates are not obligated to serve and/or die for the Army.
Look at it from an oppressed minority (Negro slaves or American Indians or white indentured servants) whose back is up against the wall. Capitulate and be forced back into economic or literal slavery or fight and kill for your freedom. Yeah, they might be called a terrorist by the person/gov't putting economic or military pressure on a group of people. From their perspective they are resisting an invading army. I can assure you I would react badly to a drone shooting at me and mine.
http://www.historyisaweapon.com/zinnapeopleshistory.html
I won't brag on the American government any longer. At one time it was one of the greatest examples of democracy. Not anymore. First - start with the BLOTUS (Biggest Liar in the United States). Then the cronyism/nepotism is mind boggling. To me, i think the government is barely functioning as it is supposed to. It mostly functions as a lifetime meal ticket for the people willing to play favorites with rich donors.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
Not trying to get in the middle of this. Muslim is not a race it's a religion. Can't be racist against it.
I always find this to be an even lazier response than loosely using the term racism. In this context it is 100% clear that by invoking the term racism they are just referring to potential sign of bigotry. Trying to deflect by saying that something is not "racists" as if that dissolves the accusation is weak at best. We are all a little bigoted against groups far outside of our social norms.
No for a segue.
There is a fine line between being wary of a group because of a shared attribute that may lead to undesirable behavior and making simplistic sweeping generalized assumptions based on that attribute.
You could argue that racism is a special form of bigotry because you can chose a religion and you cant chose your race, therefor discriminating against an inherited group attribute is someone more harmful. But I don't believe that is 100% true either. The concept of race is largely not science based with a significant part of all historical racial identification being rooted in social constructs and visual observations with larges amounts of grey area and bias.
This is partly due to a lack of genetic science to adequately define the biological meaning of race over our long history of racial tribalism, and also partly due to the practice of racial categorization by firm genetically defined boundaries being frowned upon since it generally leads people down the path of eugenics and other socially unethical scientific pursuits.
Those genetic boundaries will deteriorate over time anyway if we maintain efficient global transportation long enough. Genetic isolation of particular groups will become more and more rare if say our industrialized world continues to progress for another few thousand years or more.
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I'm sure there is a word for it but what do you call it when someone rejects a whole religion?
Ostensibly by the very nature of religion if you are not a part of it you reject it. I don't think we need a word for that. In general if you project undue hate or disdain upon people in general based on a religion we should just refer to that a being generally bigoted or discriminatory.
But you have to look at policies and peoples attitudes against religious groups on a case by case basis. Avoiding discrimination for instance by refraining from all discussion and policies against religions which we may be spreading socially unjust practices is not a good idea. But there is a fine line to be walked to maintain a principle most of us find value, freedom of religion, and also acknowledging that many religions contain some teaching that by today's standards are morally reprehensible.
I personally think all religions are inherently harmful, stifle scientific progress, and are filled with opportunities for political abuse. But religion is, at least for now and the foreseeable future, part of the human condition and it does help some people become better stewards of society by helping them to emotionally deal with life's many challenges.
At this point I could not even grantee that if enough bad things happened to me I might not decide to walk back my general atheism and seek some sort of religious grounding, but I suspect I will always find a lot of things to dislike about organized religion.
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Worry about Angelica Merkel and your 1.5 million new Muslim citizens she welcomed in who are raping and pillaging and let the U.S. figure out our own problems.
Nice of you to add casual racism to the list of things that Americans can be proud of their soldiers for.
It's feedback from a voice in the same military that supports and aids child rape in Afghanistan, murders innocent civilians through drone strikes on a routine basis, and regularly tortures innocent people in an illegal prison . . . so you know that it really stands on high moral ground.
Hopefully your defense of 'just following orders' works better for you than the Nazis who used it during the Nuremberg trials. I mean, your organization has already set up a concentration camp where members of a particular religion are singled out, abducted, and tortured (and there are a lot of questions about the 'suicides' that have occurred under US military watch) without evidence or fair trial.
Not trying to get in the middle of this. Muslim is not a race it's a religion. Can't be racist against it.
I always find this to be an even lazier response than loosely using the term racism. In this context it is 100% clear that by invoking the term racism they are just referring to potential sign of bigotry. Trying to deflect by saying that something is not "racists" as if that dissolves the accusation is weak at best. We are all a little bigoted against groups far outside of our social norms.
No for a segue.
There is a fine line between being wary of a group because of a shared attribute that may lead to undesirable behavior and making simplistic sweeping generalized assumptions based on that attribute.
You could argue that racism is a special form of bigotry because you can chose a religion and you cant chose your race, therefor discriminating against an inherited group attribute is someone more harmful. But I don't believe that is 100% true either. The concept of race is largely not science based with a significant part of all historical racial identification being rooted in social constructs and visual observations with larges amounts of grey area and bias.
This is partly due to a lack of genetic science to adequately define the biological meaning of race over our long history of racial tribalism, and also partly due to the practice of racial categorization by firm genetically defined boundaries being frowned upon since it generally leads people down the path of eugenics and other socially unethical scientific pursuits.
Those genetic boundaries will deteriorate over time anyway if we maintain efficient global transportation long enough. Genetic isolation of particular groups will become more and more rare if say our industrialized world continues to progress for another few thousand years or more.
I think this is a little bit of an insincere accusation in a decent few cases. Racism is judging someone negatively not on the content of their character and their actions, but instead an arbitrary part of them that they have no control over. Judging someone negatively over their actions and/or beliefs is very different and conflating the two is a very dangerous proposition.
Are there people who are bigoted towards middle eastern people? Definitely and they can of course be racist.
However, it seems in many cases that making similar criticisms of Muslims and Islam in the way that many may criticize Christians and Christianity, which is absolutely not racism, is lumped in as racism/islamophobia and conflating the two is insincere and dangerous in both the sense that it devalues the legitimate stigma against those that would actually be racist, if criticism of belief becomes generally considered racist then being a racist isn't that bad a thing anymore, and at the same time shuts down conversations around beliefs and their impact on the world and people's behaviors.
A good example is Charlie Hebdo who mercilessly attacked the Christian Church/Vatican, Judaism etc and no one bats an eye. However when they do so in regards to Islam people come out of the woodwork to call them racist and Islamophobic and though the attacks are to be condemned it isn't unexpected that this may happen when you treat people this way...
Also your argument as far as that race isn't an inherited attribute is not true. Though through mixing of gene pools it is of course less and less likely for people to be 100% one race or another visually there are definitely genetic markers that are distinguished between races. This actually leads to certain health risks varying between different races due to the differences genetically. However, even disregarding this the point stands separate. I would say racism itself falls under the category of judging someone on something they have no control over, which is what makes it inherently wrong. There are some cases where discriminating on these kinds of characteristics might be valid, however these are extremely limited and should be kept to a minimum since I as many others believe that fairly rewarding someone for their actions/contributions makes for a better society than one where you are rewarded for innate qualities that did not impact your performance.
For example, is it completely fair that people who won the genetic lottery in regards to intelligence happen to dominate many high paying fields? No, but it is their performance and not the innate quality itself is what is appreciated. We are ok with judging based on this largely innate characteristic as it impacts performance and if it still requires hard work to make use of the innate quality.
Though most Muslims are middle eastern this is not the criteria for being a Muslim. You can be a non middle eastern Muslim and you can be middle eastern and not be a Muslim. In fact a large amount of muslims are either African or Asian.
In the end I find it a dangerous idea to equate bigotry in regards to someone's innate qualities whatever they may be to bigotry of ideas/religion. Unfortunately, people with good intent have used this idea to defend those they believe in need and meanwhile some with ill intent have managed to take it and run with it to the point where we have shielded an entire religion from criticism that most other religions in the west are not afforded, because in the end the actual racists aren't deterred by these accusations.
Also what is more racist? Criticizing all religions/beliefs regardless of what happens to be the skin colour of the majority of adherents? Or saying that it's ok to criticize Christianity because the "white" people are reasonable and can take it, but we don't want to offend "brown" people?
I find the latter to be far more insidious.
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I'm sure there is a word for it but what do you call it when someone rejects a whole religion?
Ostensibly by the very nature of religion if you are not a part of it you reject it. I don't think we need a word for that. In general if you project undue hate or disdain upon people in general based on a religion we should just refer to that a being generally bigoted or discriminatory.
But you have to look at policies and peoples attitudes against religious groups on a case by case basis. Avoiding discrimination for instance by refraining from all discussion and policies against religions which we may be spreading socially unjust practices is not a good idea. But there is a fine line to be walked to maintain a principle most of us find value, freedom of religion, and also acknowledging that many religions contain some teaching that by today's standards are morally reprehensible.
I personally think all religions are inherently harmful, stifle scientific progress, and are filled with opportunities for political abuse. But religion is, at least for now and the foreseeable future, part of the human condition and it does help some people become better stewards of society by helping them to emotionally deal with life's many challenges.
At this point I could not even grantee that if enough bad things happened to me I might not decide to walk back my general atheism and seek some sort of religious grounding, but I suspect I will always find a lot of things to dislike about organized religion.
Well you changed your point enough to make most of my response invalid, unfortunately the MMM forum has made it impossible for me to edit my own posts recently so I can't amend the previous post.
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I personally think all religions are inherently harmful, stifle scientific progress, and are filled with opportunities for political abuse.
I would argue that this is only true for institutionalized religion.
Though most Muslims are middle eastern
Actually most muslims are Oceanic. Biggest muslim country there too (in terms of population).
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I personally think all religions are inherently harmful, stifle scientific progress, and are filled with opportunities for political abuse.
I would argue that this is only true for institutionalized religion.
Though most Muslims are middle eastern
Actually most muslims are Oceanic. Biggest muslim country there too (in terms of population).
I would have to see the exact numbers to make sure, Indonesia has a lot of people, but it doesn't really address any of the central points of my rebuttal and would only strengthen my point against Muslim being linked to race.