Author Topic: These Magic Kids  (Read 9418 times)

Glenstache

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These Magic Kids
« on: March 27, 2018, 09:41:33 AM »
This essay was on Medium, and is worth a read:

https://midcenturymodernmag.com/these-magic-kids-1aefbbeb81cd

I think it does a good job of putting context of what happens between generations. Kids have an amazing ability to learn from previous generations and push the ball forward. I think the author casts too uniform a light on the next generation. There are differences of opinion, for example the student from MJD high school who has been making the rounds on media opposing gun control. I think it is a piece worth discussing, though. Thoughts?

Poundwise

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2018, 10:04:05 AM »
I feel that we older folks are putting too much hope and pressure on these kids to fix our problems for us.

It's time that we stop being cowards and cynics, and put our middle-aged strength to the service of our country.  As a Gen Xer, I think that it is time that we flexed our muscles and lent the kids a hand.

Jenny Wren

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2018, 10:24:44 AM »
Thank you for posting this, a moving read.

I also agree with the previous poster that we need to lend these young adults a hand. Most of them can't vote yet, but we can. I know in my house prior to an election we sit with our teens and discuss the candidates and issues and take their thoughts into consideration when choosing our votes. (In the words of my son after the last election: "Lovely. I get to reach the age of majority and be forced to join the selective service under the rule of a man I wasn't even allowed to vote against.")

But in lending a hand we can't take over. I'm from the jaded, cynical generation. The generation of degreed waiters living in mom's basement. My goal is to cultivate idealism instead of the cynicism that was cultivated in me. To cultivate empowerment instead of hopelessness. For me, at least, my part in the future is a support role for the next generation. A safe home to return to, guidance and discussion on important questions, a ride to a protest or an action meeting, help in contacting a congressperson or demanding that a congressperson take the time to listen, voting with my dollars and my actions, providing a shoulder to cry on and a supportive sounding board for new ideas.

This isn't my war anymore. We gave up, rolled over, bought in. We can still serve in the infantry, but we aren't the leaders anymore. So many problems in the world could be avoided if the generals of the old generation knew when to pass the baton to the next generation instead of declaring war on their own children.

I don't expect today's kids to solve my problems. I hope they can solve their kids' problems -- something my generation obviously failed to do.

trollwithamustache

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2018, 10:39:23 AM »
meh. Its a well orchestrated, well funded movement. The kids are being prepped, trained, handled and used by a existing political/anti gun groups. 18 year olds aren't all as a group that well groomed for national media. If you want to see gun control legislation this may actually be totally OK, but make no mistake these kids are 100% being used.

Now, each generation certainly learns from the previous ones mistakes. Those dam millennial aren't borrowing enough money! they will kill Detroit by not buying SUVs.  Egads!  This generation will be no different, they will do a whole bunch of things different in an attempt to avoid the problems they see, and us old guys will get our panties all bunched up over it.


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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2018, 11:07:26 AM »
meh. Its a well orchestrated, well funded movement. The kids are being prepped, trained, handled and used by a existing political/anti gun groups. 18 year olds aren't all as a group that well groomed for national media. If you want to see gun control legislation this may actually be totally OK, but make no mistake these kids are 100% being used.

Yeah, the article mentioned your viewpoint.

Quote from: From the article
The NRA and their sad, angry ilk have a ready made explanation: They’re actors. They’re following a script. They’re shills of Big Peace.

Just Joe

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2018, 01:41:24 PM »
Thank you for posting this, a moving read.

I also agree with the previous poster that we need to lend these young adults a hand. Most of them can't vote yet, but we can. I know in my house prior to an election we sit with our teens and discuss the candidates and issues and take their thoughts into consideration when choosing our votes. (In the words of my son after the last election: "Lovely. I get to reach the age of majority and be forced to join the selective service under the rule of a man I wasn't even allowed to vote against.")

But in lending a hand we can't take over. I'm from the jaded, cynical generation. The generation of degreed waiters living in mom's basement. My goal is to cultivate idealism instead of the cynicism that was cultivated in me. To cultivate empowerment instead of hopelessness. For me, at least, my part in the future is a support role for the next generation. A safe home to return to, guidance and discussion on important questions, a ride to a protest or an action meeting, help in contacting a congressperson or demanding that a congressperson take the time to listen, voting with my dollars and my actions, providing a shoulder to cry on and a supportive sounding board for new ideas.

This isn't my war anymore. We gave up, rolled over, bought in. We can still serve in the infantry, but we aren't the leaders anymore. So many problems in the world could be avoided if the generals of the old generation knew when to pass the baton to the next generation instead of declaring war on their own children.

I don't expect today's kids to solve my problems. I hope they can solve their kids' problems -- something my generation obviously failed to do.

Move to a red state. Its really simple. Just vote straight ticket against the GOP. Not much choice on the Dems side. Not nearly enough nuance on the GOP side. Classic platform politics.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 01:42:55 PM by Just Joe »

TrudgingAlong

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2018, 02:27:44 PM »
meh. Its a well orchestrated, well funded movement. The kids are being prepped, trained, handled and used by a existing political/anti gun groups. 18 year olds aren't all as a group that well groomed for national media. If you want to see gun control legislation this may actually be totally OK, but make no mistake these kids are 100% being used.

Yeah, the article mentioned your viewpoint.

Quote from: From the article
The NRA and their sad, angry ilk have a ready made explanation: They’re actors. They’re following a script. They’re shills of Big Peace.

I wonder if they said the same things about the Vietnam protestors, most of whom were young and hoping not to be sent to war?

MDM

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2018, 02:59:02 PM »
I wonder if they said the same things about the Vietnam protestors, most of whom were young and hoping not to be sent to war?
Probably.

Might also have said the same about protestors wanting to lower the drinking age from 21 to 18.

Kids may sometimes see things without the constraints of expected behavior: "The Emperor's New Clothes" is probably the most well known version.

Kids may also look at things immaturely because, well, they are kids.  Nothing inherently magic about kids' opinions.

PoutineLover

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2018, 03:07:12 PM »
I'm glad that a bunch of teenagers are getting together to create a movement about something bigger than themselves, that their parents and grandparents are currently unwilling/unable to fix. I hope that it does actually result in change, and that everyone sees the value of getting involved and advocating for causes that are important to them.
They may not be right about everything, there may be issues with their proposals, and I'm not saying we should go and do whatever they say right away because there is something to be said for experience and research and debate. But democracy only works if the people get involved, so we should be encouraging this kind of activism.

RangerOne

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2018, 03:28:58 PM »
If people want to argue over removing guns all together versus dealing with the extremists who are committing mass shootings and keeping all of our guns those are legitimate arguments.

But we all absolutely agree to dismantle organizations which use blatant sick lies to discredit opposition. The NRA was once a reasonable organization but it has been decades since that was true and now it is just a machine hell bent on propping up gun sales no matter how ridiculous or sick its lies and fear mongering have to be.

The fact that it has taken this many shootings to get an organized sustained movement to push for some kind of gun control is ludicrous. I do think young people tend to be more comfortable with political activism. As we all get older we generally become less likely to want to rock the boat. High school students are prime age to form strong opinions about inequities in their lives so it does make some sense that a mass shooting at a college or high school was more likely to trigger this kind of response.

I am kind of glad its coming from a high school in a more conservative state because I think it does make it harder to write this all off as a liberal bubble.

Chris22

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2018, 08:19:13 PM »
If people want to argue over removing guns all together versus dealing with the extremists who are committing mass shootings and keeping all of our guns those are legitimate arguments.

But we all absolutely agree to dismantle organizations which use blatant sick lies to discredit opposition. The NRA was once a reasonable organization but it has been decades since that was true and now it is just a machine hell bent on propping up gun sales no matter how ridiculous or sick its lies and fear mongering have to be.

The fact that it has taken this many shootings to get an organized sustained movement to push for some kind of gun control is ludicrous. I do think young people tend to be more comfortable with political activism. As we all get older we generally become less likely to want to rock the boat. High school students are prime age to form strong opinions about inequities in their lives so it does make some sense that a mass shooting at a college or high school was more likely to trigger this kind of response.

I am kind of glad its coming from a high school in a more conservative state because I think it does make it harder to write this all off as a liberal bubble.

What lies specifically are your referring to?

Poundwise

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2018, 08:41:45 PM »
The following article breaks my heart.

Yes, the youth are leading, because we failed to do so.  I will not sit back and let these kids be cannon fodder. We adults have to work to make the changes in both laws and in hearts, even if it takes time out of our busy schedules, and ruins our dinner party conversations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/nikolas-cruz-shooting-florida.html

Anger, sorrow, mistakes, and mental illness happen in every country... there is no need for these to be as fatal as they are here in the U.S. While there are many "good guys with a gun" who think that guns are for protection,  having firearms only raises the stakes. For every gun a good guy owns, a bad guy can have the same and more. De-escalation is needed.

I think that the NRA makes a great mistake here. By taking such a hard line on any regulation whatsoever, they decrease the safety of gun use, and turn public sentiment against them.  It would be better to back down and compromise.


Chris22

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2018, 08:45:52 PM »
The following article breaks my heart.

Yes, the youth are leading, because we failed to do so.  I will not sit back and let these kids be cannon fodder. We adults have to work to make the changes in both laws and in hearts, even if it takes time out of our busy schedules, and ruins our dinner party conversations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/nikolas-cruz-shooting-florida.html

Anger, sorrow, mistakes, and mental illness happen in every country... there is no need for these to be as fatal as they are here in the U.S. While there are many "good guys with a gun" who think that guns are for protection,  having firearms only raises the stakes. For every gun a good guy owns, a bad guy can have the same and more. De-escalation is needed.

I think that the NRA makes a great mistake here. By taking such a hard line on any regulation whatsoever, they decrease the safety of gun use, and turn public sentiment against them.  It would be better to back down and compromise.

What does that word mean to you?  Because in my world, “compromise” means each side does some give and take. What is the “take” for the NRA perspective?  What are we getting in return for more half-assed legislation?

Poundwise

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2018, 08:51:35 PM »
Quote
I think that the NRA makes a great mistake here. By taking such a hard line on any regulation whatsoever, they decrease the safety of gun use, and turn public sentiment against them.  It would be better to back down and compromise.

What does that word mean to you?  Because in my world, “compromise” means each side does some give and take. What is the “take” for the NRA perspective?  What are we getting in return for more half-assed legislation?

It means, that instead of  everyone getting to keep whatever guns you want, wherever, and however-- that we close loopholes in background checks, limit the number of bullets per second that you can shoot without reloading, limit the amount of ammunition you can purchase in a given time period, that with a court order, we temporarily limit arms possession for people who are depressed or have domestic violence records... there are a lot of things that can be done to increase safety but you-- won't-- give-- an-- inch!

In return, you get the public off your backs, and your kids don't get shot in school, and you stop living in fear.

Chris22

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2018, 08:55:14 PM »
Quote
I think that the NRA makes a great mistake here. By taking such a hard line on any regulation whatsoever, they decrease the safety of gun use, and turn public sentiment against them.  It would be better to back down and compromise.

What does that word mean to you?  Because in my world, “compromise” means each side does some give and take. What is the “take” for the NRA perspective?  What are we getting in return for more half-assed legislation?

It means, that instead of  everyone getting to keep whatever guns you want, wherever, and however-- that we close loopholes in background checks, limit the number of bullets per second that you can shoot without reloading, limit the amount of ammunition you can purchase in a given time period, that with a court order, we temporarily limit arms possession for people who are depressed or have domestic violence records... there are a lot of things that can be done to increase safety but you-- won't-- give-- an-- inch!

In return, you get the public off your backs, and your kids don't get shot in school, and you stop living in fear.

I don’t believe the first two and I don’t understand what the third one refers to.

Poundwise

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2018, 09:09:25 PM »
1. Public off your backs.
If there weren't so many people injured and killed by guns a year-- which would happen if guns were more strongly regulated so that access for impulsive or careless people was harder-- fewer families would be affected, and therefore there would be a dropoff in public outrage.

2. Kids won't get shot in school
What's your solution then? Kids getting shot in school, or at home, or on the street, is wrong and should not be normal.

3. Stop living in fear
What the heck is all the talk about your guns protecting against bad guys and tyranny, if not fear? You're brave, just like to be prepared?  What if the bad guys were just armed with knives and the tyrants with billy clubs, wouldn't that be a little better?  To get back to that point, you have to make it harder for some people to get guns, especially the types who torture animals and hit girlfriends.

Chris22

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2018, 09:15:52 PM »
1. Public off your backs.
If there weren't so many people injured and killed by guns a year-- which would happen if guns were more strongly regulated so that access for impulsive or careless people was harder-- fewer families would be affected, and therefore there would be a dropoff in public outrage.

2. Kids won't get shot in school
What's your solution then? Kids getting shot in school, or at home, or on the street, is wrong and should not be normal.

I don’t believe either of those things would be the outcomes of what you proposed. They wouldn’t stop school shootings, and once there’s another school shooting, there would be demands for more legislation.

Quote
3. Stop living in fear
What the heck is all the talk about your guns protecting against bad guys and tyranny, if not fear? You're brave, just like to be prepared?  What if the bad guys were just armed with knives and the tyrants with billy clubs, wouldn't that be a little better?  To get back to that point, you have to make it harder for some people to get guns, especially the types who torture animals and hit girlfriends.

I don’t believe this fantasy world where you can prevent more illegal guns with an additional law.

Poundwise

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2018, 09:33:36 PM »
1. Public off your backs.
If there weren't so many people injured and killed by guns a year-- which would happen if guns were more strongly regulated so that access for impulsive or careless people was harder-- fewer families would be affected, and therefore there would be a dropoff in public outrage.

2. Kids won't get shot in school
What's your solution then? Kids getting shot in school, or at home, or on the street, is wrong and should not be normal.

I don’t believe either of those things would be the outcomes of what you proposed. They wouldn’t stop school shootings, and once there’s another school shooting, there would be demands for more legislation.

Quote
3. Stop living in fear
What the heck is all the talk about your guns protecting against bad guys and tyranny, if not fear? You're brave, just like to be prepared?  What if the bad guys were just armed with knives and the tyrants with billy clubs, wouldn't that be a little better?  To get back to that point, you have to make it harder for some people to get guns, especially the types who torture animals and hit girlfriends.

I don’t believe this fantasy world where you can prevent more illegal guns with an additional law.

Then I can't help you, and I pray for your soul.

Chris22

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2018, 09:37:11 PM »
Appreciate it. But maybe now you understand why your word compromise is absurd to the NRA. 

GuitarStv

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2018, 08:20:07 AM »
Appreciate it. But maybe now you understand why your word compromise is absurd to the NRA.

Of course it is.

The NRA has won on every front for decades by not compromising.  It's possible to openly carry a firearm in 45 states, to covertly carry a firearm in every state, to own any type of firearm (yes, you have to pay more for machine guns and sawwed of shotguns).  It's not necessary to have a background check to buy a firearm from someone.  No record of private sales is kept in most states.  No registry of ownership is kept in most states.  It's illegal to keep usable, searchable records of firearms sales for police use.

The NRA has all the power.  They have purchased most of the Republican party, and get the legislation that they want passed.  They have been able to place supreme court judges in power who have altered interpretation of the US Constitution to be more friendly to their cause.  They have deep pockets, which they use to fuel a vast media and advertising empire.  Best of all, they have a sizable army of gun advocates who value their firearms much more than the lives of other people, and who are perfectly happy with the way things are.

When you're asking for 'compromise' it's a bit disingenuous.  That's like the Nazis saying they'll negotiate with Jews in the concentration camp, and then leaving the discussion in a huff because they didn't get enough concessions.  "The Jews want food, water, medicine, and to not be gassed to death . . . but they're not willing to offer us anything!  They're obviously not negotiating in good faith.  Maybe they'll come back to the table later when they're serious.  Until then I guess it's best we just carry on with the status quo."

acroy

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2018, 08:27:48 AM »
Bullchit dystopian article. For instance:

"They are looking square into a future denuded of the possibilities we older folks took for granted. They can see, quite clearly, that like plagues of locust, our grown-up generations have stripped the nation’s resources, beshitted the global environment like we had a spare planet tucked in the garage under a tarp, presided over the destruction of our own middle class, and for a kicker, welcomed a parade of nationalist buffoons with fascist tendencies back into power."

Nope. This is the author's view. He's already given up and is projecting it on kids. he needs some optimism, starting here https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/03/the-practical-benefits-of-outrageous-optimism/

PoutineLover

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2018, 09:16:34 AM »
Bullchit dystopian article. For instance:

"They are looking square into a future denuded of the possibilities we older folks took for granted. They can see, quite clearly, that like plagues of locust, our grown-up generations have stripped the nation’s resources, beshitted the global environment like we had a spare planet tucked in the garage under a tarp, presided over the destruction of our own middle class, and for a kicker, welcomed a parade of nationalist buffoons with fascist tendencies back into power."

Nope. This is the author's view. He's already given up and is projecting it on kids. he needs some optimism, starting here https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/03/the-practical-benefits-of-outrageous-optimism/

But what about that is untrue? As a young person today, I would really like to know why previous generations have continued destroying the planet for profit while half of the world starves to death and gets displaced by war and natural disasters (exacerbated by climate change). The reports on global warming, deforestation, extinction, etc. keep getting worse and the longer we wait to fix it the harder and more expensive and less effective it will be. But there seems to be zero political will to do anything about it from the people currently in power.
I'm still optimistic for the future, because I think my generation has a much more holistic mindset that might help us get on a better track. But for that to happen, we need the rich selfish assholes currently in charge to get out of the way. They aren't the ones suffering as a result of their greed, and they won't get to see the end results of the destruction they've put into motion.

Just Joe

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2018, 09:43:40 AM »
meh. Its a well orchestrated, well funded movement. The kids are being prepped, trained, handled and used by a existing political/anti gun groups. 18 year olds aren't all as a group that well groomed for national media. If you want to see gun control legislation this may actually be totally OK, but make no mistake these kids are 100% being used.

Yeah, the article mentioned your viewpoint.

Quote from: From the article
The NRA and their sad, angry ilk have a ready made explanation: They’re actors. They’re following a script. They’re shills of Big Peace.

I wonder if they said the same things about the Vietnam protestors, most of whom were young and hoping not to be sent to war?

Remember the Vietnam protesters were commie infiltrators and dirty hippies... Not just people who wanted an end to the war. It couldn't be that people just wanted to stop sending their brothers, boyfriends and husbands off to die in a pointless war.

I'm confident that the NRA has some very smart people working out their strategy. After all - must protect billions in profit.

They are a dozen steps ahead of the rest of us. They have a formula/strategy that they will use until it doesn't work.

Its all just a marketing strategy. So is patriotism, flag waving, statements like "you're either for us or against us", and needless wars in middle eastern places.

They'll stall any gun regulations so they can stick another 50 billion dollars in the bank over the next decade b/c dollars matter more than lives. Plenty of other solutions being discussed here rather than letting the country go to crap and then killing whatever bad guy that pops up.

How about we give help to the druggies, the mentally sick, and fine tune our economy to serve more people besides the folks at the top? A person getting affordable treatment and people with a future don't feel cornered so that they want to end their life in hail of bullets killing anyone that ever looked at them sideways.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 10:05:40 AM by Just Joe »

MDM

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2018, 09:45:55 AM »
But what about that is untrue?
On balance, pretty much all of it.  YMMV.

partgypsy

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2018, 09:55:14 AM »
I feel that we older folks are putting too much hope and pressure on these kids to fix our problems for us.

It's time that we stop being cowards and cynics, and put our middle-aged strength to the service of our country.  As a Gen Xer, I think that it is time that we flexed our muscles and lent the kids a hand.
Agree. I am in awe of my oldest kid, she is far more aware and socially conscious than I was at her age. But we caused a lot of these problems. I'm so glad she is engaged, but we are the adults who are letting them down.

Just Joe

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2018, 10:06:08 AM »
I feel that we older folks are putting too much hope and pressure on these kids to fix our problems for us.

It's time that we stop being cowards and cynics, and put our middle-aged strength to the service of our country.  As a Gen Xer, I think that it is time that we flexed our muscles and lent the kids a hand.
Agree. I am in awe of my oldest kid, she is far more aware and socially conscious than I was at her age. But we caused a lot of these problems. I'm so glad she is engaged, but we are the adults who are letting them down.

+1! Absolutely. I think the party who doesn't want to actually accomplish anything (GOP) is fucked a few years into the future.

partgypsy

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2018, 10:53:38 AM »
I feel that we older folks are putting too much hope and pressure on these kids to fix our problems for us.

It's time that we stop being cowards and cynics, and put our middle-aged strength to the service of our country.  As a Gen Xer, I think that it is time that we flexed our muscles and lent the kids a hand.
Agree. I am in awe of my oldest kid, she is far more aware and socially conscious than I was at her age. But we caused a lot of these problems. I'm so glad she is engaged, but we are the adults who are letting them down.

+1! Absolutely. I think the party who doesn't want to actually accomplish anything (GOP) is fucked a few years into the future.
I hope so. I'm all for fiscal responsibility for the gov, but they are even f-king that up.

DarkandStormy

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2018, 11:18:21 AM »
For those saying the kids are being used, you might want to read about their "movement."

http://time.com/longform/never-again-movement/

Quote
Inside the office, there is no adult supervision beyond Matt Deitsch and Kaylyn Pipitone, two 20-year-old college students and recent Stoneman Douglas alums who help with things that only adults can do, like signing contracts and insurance forms and paperwork for their 501(c)(4). “We want the grownups we need in this, and nothing more,” says Kasky. “We only have people doing the things that as 17-year-olds we cannot.” At an early #NeverAgain meeting, parents asked how they could help, recalls Alex Wind’s mother.

The answer came back: “Order pizza.”

Just Joe

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2018, 11:32:24 AM »
I feel that we older folks are putting too much hope and pressure on these kids to fix our problems for us.

It's time that we stop being cowards and cynics, and put our middle-aged strength to the service of our country.  As a Gen Xer, I think that it is time that we flexed our muscles and lent the kids a hand.
Agree. I am in awe of my oldest kid, she is far more aware and socially conscious than I was at her age. But we caused a lot of these problems. I'm so glad she is engaged, but we are the adults who are letting them down.

+1! Absolutely. I think the party who doesn't want to actually accomplish anything (GOP) is fucked a few years into the future.
I hope so. I'm all for fiscal responsibility for the gov, but they are even f-king that up.

I'm for fiscal responsibility too but the GOP doesn't even seem to live by the platforms they espouse. Here's hoping the other guys that replace them can be more effective. Plenty of the government mechanism needs creative solutions and fine tuning. 

caracarn

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2018, 11:38:34 AM »
For those saying the kids are being used, you might want to read about their "movement."

http://time.com/longform/never-again-movement/

Quote
Inside the office, there is no adult supervision beyond Matt Deitsch and Kaylyn Pipitone, two 20-year-old college students and recent Stoneman Douglas alums who help with things that only adults can do, like signing contracts and insurance forms and paperwork for their 501(c)(4). “We want the grownups we need in this, and nothing more,” says Kasky. “We only have people doing the things that as 17-year-olds we cannot.” At an early #NeverAgain meeting, parents asked how they could help, recalls Alex Wind’s mother.

The answer came back: “Order pizza.”
Yes we read this this weekend when the magazine showed up in our mailbox.  Very impressive drive and I'm sure reminds all us oldsters when he had the energy and passion to do things on our own before we relied on others like Dana Loesch and the NRA to do the arguing for us (just an example, not an NRA supporter at all.  They are about as useful as other organizations in this country that throw out a fringe agenda to feverishly loyal followers). 

Having kids in this age group myself who I am also certain are not being used by anyone but who have the same fervor over the topic, I think they just might get things changed as they age enough to vote and get rid of the politicians that are the barriers to change and become the politicians themselves.  Sadly that still means slow change, but I have hope on this topic of making this a less gun heavy country for the first time in my lifetime.  I've had a few very eye opening conversations with my kids about what drives them on this and it is a deep visceral hatred of being made to feel scared and unsafe, the same argument that the gun owners march out about their scared selves and why they need a metal protrusion in their hand to make themselves feel safe.  Kind of ironic.  Just seems the kids are focused on a more fruitful and less negative viewpoint.  They believe we can protect ourselves by being decent human beings who love each other and care for each other rather than assuming we are all out to hurt each other so we must shoot first and ask questions later.  A few comments about how having these active shooter drills and all the inaction they see around them were very enlightening.  Honestly made me ashamed to be a 40 something who cannot answer why as adults we can't get our shit together and figure this out.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 11:40:59 AM by caracarn »

acroy

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2018, 01:11:04 PM »
Bullchit dystopian article. For instance:

"They are looking square into a future denuded of the possibilities we older folks took for granted. They can see, quite clearly, that like plagues of locust, our grown-up generations have stripped the nation’s resources, beshitted the global environment like we had a spare planet tucked in the garage under a tarp, presided over the destruction of our own middle class, and for a kicker, welcomed a parade of nationalist buffoons with fascist tendencies back into power."

Nope. This is the author's view. He's already given up and is projecting it on kids. he needs some optimism, starting here https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/10/03/the-practical-benefits-of-outrageous-optimism/

But what about that is untrue? As a young person today, I would really like to know why previous generations have continued destroying the planet for profit while half of the world starves to death and gets displaced by war and natural disasters (exacerbated by climate change). The reports on global warming, deforestation, extinction, etc. keep getting worse and the longer we wait to fix it the harder and more expensive and less effective it will be. But there seems to be zero political will to do anything about it from the people currently in power.
I'm still optimistic for the future, because I think my generation has a much more holistic mindset that might help us get on a better track. But for that to happen, we need the rich selfish assholes currently in charge to get out of the way. They aren't the ones suffering as a result of their greed, and they won't get to see the end results of the destruction they've put into motion.
to start with
- https://www.amazon.com/Rational-Optimist-Prosperity-Evolves-P-s/dp/0061452068
- see poverty histogram attached
- look up Greening of Planet Earth, one of the most under-reported incredible stories of the last decades. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-36130346

I used to think much like you, till the facts started not lining up with the depressing predictions, year after year after year.... and I started to dig into what was actually going on.

I think it is 'in style' to be depressed and dystopian about the future; a cultural phenomena, not backed up by the facts. Why I don't know. Maybe because bad news sells? no one will click links that say 'hey the world is 2% better this year!'? Look at the life and work by Paul Ehrlich for instance. I grew up in fear of the population bomb. Turns out the guy is at best a bad-news salesman.

The failure of the bad-news bears has turned me into the cynical contrary optimist I am today. In fact that is why you and I are on this site. You and I have already been woke to FIRE through Financial Badassity, waving a cheery middle finger to the societal/cultural norm of debt slavery, clown-like consumption and working for the system for life. Wake a bit more!!

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2018, 01:48:11 PM »
These magic kids who could not reach out a hand and try and be a friend when someone in school was struggling. Where is the call to support and be a friend to someone who is obviously lonely and depressed? That of course would take them admitting that they probably did the opposite, ridiculed him and drove him deeper into depression. Most of his behavior was so obviously a cry for help that went ignored over and over. Kids don't act out with their behavior because they are bad kids or "rotten apples" they do it because they need something they are not getting. Unfortunately help was not provided.

I mean, even the superintendent of the school asks what's the point of trying to help:

"“Based on what’s reported in the media, here’s a kid who’s lost both parents, he’s obviously got some mental health challenges,” Runcie said. “Let me just say if we provided every service that we could and did all that in exemplary fashion, if he can still get access to guns what’s the point of all this?”

But nope, let's focus on guns, not helping people that need it. Sad that this is the point we reach. We do not want to tackle the root problem of a broken society and instead focus on the shiny object, or call him mentally ill to shift focus away from our own responsibility and onto the "other". None of these kids will say that they ignored him, made fun of him, did not try and be a friend. Instead they now have national notoriety, wiki pages, and countless articles about them, Hogg wants to be a journalist, ya know. There's nothing magical about seizing an opportunity for your own gain.


mm1970

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2018, 02:05:48 PM »
Appreciate it. But maybe now you understand why your word compromise is absurd to the NRA.
Because they really don't care.  And I say this as someone whose nephew is a fucking director at the fucking NRA.

Australia, Canada, England

Oh wait, we don't give a shit.

Just Joe

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2018, 02:07:54 PM »
These magic kids who could not reach out a hand and try and be a friend when someone in school was struggling. Where is the call to support and be a friend to someone who is obviously lonely and depressed? That of course would take them admitting that they probably did the opposite, ridiculed him and drove him deeper into depression. Most of his behavior was so obviously a cry for help that went ignored over and over. Kids don't act out with their behavior because they are bad kids or "rotten apples" they do it because they need something they are not getting. Unfortunately help was not provided.

I mean, even the superintendent of the school asks what's the point of trying to help:

"“Based on what’s reported in the media, here’s a kid who’s lost both parents, he’s obviously got some mental health challenges,” Runcie said. “Let me just say if we provided every service that we could and did all that in exemplary fashion, if he can still get access to guns what’s the point of all this?”

But nope, let's focus on guns, not helping people that need it. Sad that this is the point we reach. We do not want to tackle the root problem of a broken society and instead focus on the shiny object, or call him mentally ill to shift focus away from our own responsibility and onto the "other". None of these kids will say that they ignored him, made fun of him, did not try and be a friend. Instead they now have national notoriety, wiki pages, and countless articles about them, Hogg wants to be a journalist, ya know. There's nothing magical about seizing an opportunity for your own gain.

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/at-one-high-school-no-one-eats-lunch-alone/

It happens. Room for improvement? Sure. The kids need to be doing it and so do the school's faculty and staff.

PoutineLover

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2018, 02:08:33 PM »
@acroy: Okay, so I am an optimist about my own personal life, and I am glad that I'm not trapped in the debt/consumption cycle that is so common in developed nations. But I realize that I was extremely lucky to be born into probably the top 10% of the world, and that the vast majority of people on our never had/will have the opportunities and quality of life that I take for granted.
I also agree that over time, we have been able make progress on issues like extreme poverty, life expectancy, education. But just because we make some progress on some fronts doesn't mean we can excuse all the other problems, and I think that there are still many reasons to be concerned about our global trajectory.
There are still way too many people living on way too little, despite there being enough calories of food produced to feed everyone, if we could fix access/distribution/waste problems. Environmentally, that article even says that the benefits of CO2 will be outweighed by the negatives. Even if it does increase biomass to a certain extent, it doesn't outweigh the habitat loss, erosion, and diversity loss of deforestation. I think that humans have the technology and tools in place to build global systems in which everyone has access to food, sanitation, medical care, education and safety. But I think that we are currently in a state of inequality where a small percentage of humans hoard most of the resources of the world, while exploiting the environment and leaving most of the consequences to be borne by people in other countries and the next generation. I like to consider myself more of a realist than a pessimist, but I definitely don't have the same optimism that you seem to possess.

and @zoltani: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/nikolas-cruz-shooting-florida.html
« Last Edit: March 28, 2018, 02:18:47 PM by PoutineLover »

mm1970

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2018, 02:11:56 PM »
These magic kids who could not reach out a hand and try and be a friend when someone in school was struggling. Where is the call to support and be a friend to someone who is obviously lonely and depressed? That of course would take them admitting that they probably did the opposite, ridiculed him and drove him deeper into depression. Most of his behavior was so obviously a cry for help that went ignored over and over. Kids don't act out with their behavior because they are bad kids or "rotten apples" they do it because they need something they are not getting. Unfortunately help was not provided.

I mean, even the superintendent of the school asks what's the point of trying to help:

"“Based on what’s reported in the media, here’s a kid who’s lost both parents, he’s obviously got some mental health challenges,” Runcie said. “Let me just say if we provided every service that we could and did all that in exemplary fashion, if he can still get access to guns what’s the point of all this?”

But nope, let's focus on guns, not helping people that need it. Sad that this is the point we reach. We do not want to tackle the root problem of a broken society and instead focus on the shiny object, or call him mentally ill to shift focus away from our own responsibility and onto the "other". None of these kids will say that they ignored him, made fun of him, did not try and be a friend. Instead they now have national notoriety, wiki pages, and countless articles about them, Hogg wants to be a journalist, ya know. There's nothing magical about seizing an opportunity for your own gain.

Actually, let's blame the kids.  It's their fault!  It's not easy access to semi-automatic rifles.  Nope. It's that they didn't make friends with the "weird kid" or the "lonely kid".  Oh, it's not that the system failed some kids, who end up  homeless with no family.  Nope, it's those damned teenagers own fault!

This whole "hand up" movement is bullshit.  It's victim blaming at its best.

And I say this as someone who was BULLIED through high school, sometimes relentlessly.  You cannot be friends with everyone.  My kid gets bullied sometimes too.  I just teach him to be NICE.  But he doesn't have to be FRIENDS with everyone because he doesn't have to LIKE everyone.  Just like they aren't gonna like him.  He's a nerd, he talks too much, and he talks about weird stuff!  But he has to treat others with RESPECT.

Shoot, 2/3 of my high school class said "you were bullied?"  Man, they were effing OBLIVIOUS because it wasn't happening to them!

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Carrie

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2018, 02:22:46 PM »
Please don't blame kids for not doing enough to help or befriend a psychopath.  That's pretty shitty victim blaming.

zoltani

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2018, 02:33:11 PM »
Please don't blame kids for not doing enough to help or befriend a psychopath.  That's pretty shitty victim blaming.

I'm actually blaming an overall failure of society and the school system at large.

I see many of you would agree with the superintendent "no point", right?


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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2018, 02:35:07 PM »
Please don't blame kids for not doing enough to help or befriend a psychopath.  That's pretty shitty victim blaming.

Seriously.

And apparently Nikolas Cruz was abusive to an ex-girlfriend, and got expelled for picking a fight with her new boyfriend.

So I guess the solution is for girls to submit themselves to asshole boys who abuse them so they won’t get their feelings hurt and shoot up a school. Yeah, totally the girl’s fault for breaking up with him.

FFS.

Carrie

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2018, 02:48:11 PM »
Please don't blame kids for not doing enough to help or befriend a psychopath.  That's pretty shitty victim blaming.

I'm actually blaming an overall failure of society and the school system at large.

I see many of you would agree with the superintendent "no point", right?

I must have misread your first paragraph. I thought you were saying if these kids were so magic why did they not reach out enough to the weird kid. Sounded like victim blaming to me.
 

Davnasty

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2018, 02:48:37 PM »
Please don't blame kids for not doing enough to help or befriend a psychopath.  That's pretty shitty victim blaming.

I'm actually blaming an overall failure of society and the school system at large.

I see many of you would agree with the superintendent "no point", right?

We can work towards fixing societal problems like loneliness and depression but these problams have existed since the beginning of civilization and while I'm pretty optimistic I don't think we're ever going to fix something like that entirely. We may even be going in the wrong direction with increasing isolation through technology.

Either way though, can't we do both? Try to help our fellow humans AND have a rational discussion about guns?

As has been stated again and again, this is not a discussion about whether we should ban some weapons, that's already been decided and we decided yes, we should. The current discussion is about which ones.

Davnasty

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2018, 02:56:29 PM »
Please don't blame kids for not doing enough to help or befriend a psychopath.  That's pretty shitty victim blaming.

I'm actually blaming an overall failure of society and the school system at large.

I see many of you would agree with the superintendent "no point", right?

I must have misread your first paragraph. I thought you were saying if these kids were so magic why did they not reach out enough to the weird kid. Sounded like victim blaming to me.

Hmm, no I think your reading comprehension skills are fine

These magic kids who could not reach out a hand and try and be a friend when someone in school was struggling.

That of course would take them admitting that they probably did the opposite, ridiculed him and drove him deeper into depression.

DarkandStormy

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2018, 03:04:24 PM »

Just Joe

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2018, 03:59:12 PM »
Wait - I thought only liberals could be snowflakes... ;)

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2018, 02:18:48 PM »
I don't jive with this piece even remotely. I was among almost exclusively accomplished AP kids when I was in high school some 2 decades ago, and they were just as composed. They just didn't have any medium, because the media was not particularly interested in giving them a medium.

What's changed is the media landscape, not the kids. Every generation produces respectable young people.

And, oh my god, this is moronically stupid:
Quote
Not for nothing, these are the kids that were born, literally, in the months after September 11, 2001. They came into a world at war. They grew up in the shadow of ever-threatening “Red Alert Levels” and endless “Active Shooter Drills” and the ubiquity of “Rekt” videos on 4Chan. They did not know one day of school before Columbine. They did not know one day of life without the threat of terrorism.
Gen Z lives through nothing unique, except an epoch that is uniquely safe. And perhaps 24/7 media scares. Al Qaeda has nothing on the USSR.

The rest of the post is just stuff I don't agree with, while saying:
Quote
These kids might just be learning to shave, but Occam’s razor is intuitive. You need to train yourself into NOT believing obvious truths

I was a pretty engaged kid when I was younger, but I am assuming the author would call me brainwashed because I disagreed with his opinions.

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2018, 05:35:35 PM »
David Hogg, the well spoken Parkland student-activist has been vilified by the douche Laura Ingraham because he got rejected from some colleges despite his 4.2 gpa.  A boycott of her advertisers has been issued and has been successful.  You can support David by contacting the advertisers and letting them know what you think...Check out the story here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/29/laura-ingraham-savaged-for-taunting-parkland-activist-over-college-rejections/?utm_term=.94653d2fc707

Also, regarding college applications:  David most likely submitted his applications LONG before the Parkland shooting.  Since then he has changed the world with his activism.  Since most colleges want people who will make an impact on the world, I'm sure he would have got into almost all of the universities he applied to, if they knew how impactful his voice would become.

One school that rejected him was UCLA.  I have two students there and would be honored to have him as a classmate.  I have tweeted UCLA and asked them to reconsider his application--and would like to start a petition for reconsideration, but I"m not the most computer savvy person...Anyone have any suggestions?

BlueHouse

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2018, 06:14:54 PM »
These magic kids who could not reach out a hand and try and be a friend when someone in school was struggling. Where is the call to support and be a friend to someone who is obviously lonely and depressed? That of course would take them admitting that they probably did the opposite, ridiculed him and drove him deeper into depression. Most of his behavior was so obviously a cry for help that went ignored over and over. Kids don't act out with their behavior because they are bad kids or "rotten apples" they do it because they need something they are not getting. Unfortunately help was not provided.

I mean, even the superintendent of the school asks what's the point of trying to help:

"“Based on what’s reported in the media, here’s a kid who’s lost both parents, he’s obviously got some mental health challenges,” Runcie said. “Let me just say if we provided every service that we could and did all that in exemplary fashion, if he can still get access to guns what’s the point of all this?”

But nope, let's focus on guns, not helping people that need it. Sad that this is the point we reach. We do not want to tackle the root problem of a broken society and instead focus on the shiny object, or call him mentally ill to shift focus away from our own responsibility and onto the "other". None of these kids will say that they ignored him, made fun of him, did not try and be a friend. Instead they now have national notoriety, wiki pages, and countless articles about them, Hogg wants to be a journalist, ya know. There's nothing magical about seizing an opportunity for your own gain.

Nice victim-blaming.

Read this:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/03/27/opinion/nikolas-cruz-shooting-florida.html

Quote
....
This deeply dangerous sentiment, expressed under the #WalkUpNotOut hashtag, implies that acts of school violence can be prevented if students befriend disturbed and potentially dangerous classmates. The idea that we are to blame, even implicitly, for the murders of our friends and teachers is a slap in the face to all Stoneman Douglas victims and survivors.

A year after I was assaulted by Mr. Cruz, I was assigned to tutor him through my school’s peer counseling program. Being a peer counselor was the first real responsibility I had ever had, my first glimpse of adulthood, and I took it very seriously.

Despite my discomfort, I sat down with him, alone. I was forced to endure his cursing me out and ogling my chest until the hourlong session ended. When I was done, I felt a surge of pride for having organized his binder and helped him with his homework.

Looking back, I am horrified. I now understand that I was left, unassisted, with a student who had a known history of rage and brutality.

Like many pre-teenage and teenage girls, I possessed — and still, to an extent, possess — a strong desire to please. I strive to win the praise of the adults in my life and long to be seen as mature beyond my years. I would have done almost anything to win the approval of my teachers.
....


BlueHouse

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Re: These Magic Kids
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2018, 06:42:38 PM »
meh. Its a well orchestrated, well funded movement. The kids are being prepped, trained, handled and used by a existing political/anti gun groups. 18 year olds aren't all as a group that well groomed for national media. If you want to see gun control legislation this may actually be totally OK, but make no mistake these kids are 100% being used.

Ages of our founding fathers in 1776:
"They're just kids.  What do they know?"
Marquis de Lafayette, 18
James Monroe, 18
Charles Pinckney, 18
Henry Lee III, 20
Gilbert Stuart, 20
John Trumbull, 20
Aaron Burr, 20
John Marshall, 20
Nathan Hale, 21
Banastre Tarleton, 21
Alexander Hamilton, 21*
John Laurens, 21
Benjamin Tallmadge, 22
Betsy Ross, 24
William Washington, 24
James Madison, 25
Henry Knox, 25
John Andre, 26
Thomas Lynch, Jr., 26^