Author Topic: There is no puppet master pitting us against each other to keep us distracted  (Read 1916 times)

J Boogie

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This is going to be a pretty unstructured rant. I apologize in advance if it feels disjointed.

Just had to get this off my chest. Way too many people in my feeds echo this idea that just kind of "feels" right, in my opinion because it won't anger the folks on the right or the left too much and might even end up in some high-fiving across the aisle. Both will blame social media for some of it, because the content moderating folks there have a liberal bias angering the conservatives - and liberals take issue with the platforming, networking, and radicalizing that social media has provided for the far right. But these companies are largely just after profits. They want your data because they can sell better targeted ads with it, not because they're in on the great conspiracy.


The idea that we have been fooled into thinking we are each others' enemies is indeed a false one, but I will argue here that we have mostly fooled ourselves. We are the ones who have divided and distracted ourselves, and we are the ones who have the power to reverse course.

There is a desire to draw a line of distinction between ourselves, the citizens, the everyday people, from the puppet masters. The elites. The global elites. The party of Davos. The Bilderberg attendees. The Kochs. Soros. Even the mild-mannered life-saving Bill Gates. And of course many of these theories, not the ones YOU believe of course, place Jews at the center of this evil global cabal.

These powerful, wealthy, and influential people do exist. The question is whether their intentions, as stated on the about sections of the websites of their charitable foundations, should be taken at face value - and if not, what the their true motivations might be (beyond retaining/growing their wealth and keeping the pitchforks away) and why they seek to deceive.

Would they be any different than ours, those who haven't accumulated unthinkable amounts of power and wealth?

It's just too convenient. It corresponds perfectly to our desire to make sense of the world in a tidy way that can be summarized as good (us) vs evil (them). And it absolves us of blame. The burden of being better listeners, offering the benefit of the doubt, and arguing in good faith is off our shoulders. The burden of being well informed can easily be outsourced to whoever lambastes the other side and is most frequently links them to the despised elites.

The tricky part is that we do know people like Epstein existed, and that he hosted far too many people who occupy positions of influence and power. Guilt by association might not be completely fair, but the alibi of someone like Dershowitz that he never took his underwear off during a massage certainly doesn't inspire confidence. I don't think it's unfair to informally conclude, for our purposes, that Dershowitz was at least somewhat complicit in Epstein's pedo/human trafficking ring. Like other Epstein associates, he possesses a certain amount of power that could shield him from legal consequences.

My theory is that powerful people are just like many of us who do things like binge on netflix and stay up until 4am even though we have work in the morning. And then we show up at 9:05 because we showed up at 9:04 the day before and everything was fine. And before you know it we're strolling in at 11. I imagine the powerful experience a tremendous absence of regular person boundaries that results in some of them nibbling around the edges of socially deviant behavior until they finally take a bite.

Perhaps this boundary-pushing behavior occasionally manifests itself in the form of seeking greater and greater power and influence. We've certainly seen powerful people seeking more power in unscrupulous ways. But outside of scenarios where hostile foreign governments seek to divide us with strategic propaganda (they often create unsympathetic first person narratives supposedly as a historically oppressed person, to generate hate from the right, and hate for the right from the left, etc), I'm not sure I've seen much evidence of division being used as a tool to increase power over one's own subjects.

I consider it possible as a side effect, as the increase in partisanship here in the US often results in an excess of power at the federal executive level. But this is actually presidents doing the will of the voters who are expecting them to deliver on their campaign promises via executive order rather than scold them that they didn't deliver the midterm votes needed to get majorities needed to pass legislation.

Perhaps we act more as bees and ants than we know, and explicit cooperation and conspiration isn't the point. Maybe the outcome is no different. After all, the Boomers and Silents in power have collectively settled upon a system of interest rates going to zero while asset prices go to a million. Meanwhile they own property so housing costs skyrocketing is good, not bad for them. They went to college long ago so tuition costs don't mean a thing to them. Current healthcare premiums subsidize them far more than their healthy young peasant counterparts. You can't lay the blame squarely at the feet of the President, the fed chair, or any one single group it seems.

I believe it's more of an anti-conspiracy - most in power probably observe self-serving phenomena similar to what I've alluded to and DON'T get together with their peers in attempt to mitigate the ill effects of the policies that benefit them.

This is in line with Robert Conquest's 3rd law of politics: The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies.

A less conspiratorial reading of that, as interpreted by Milton Friedman, is that bureaucratic resource allocation involves spending other people’s money on other people, so there are no compelling reasons to control either cost or quality — but a bureaucrat will learn, given time, how to “spend on others” in such a fashion that the primary benefit flows to him or herself.

And I think that is collectively accomplished with zero acknowledgment between would-be conspirators. Because to admit grift to others would first require admitting it to oneself, and I think we've all internalized this idea that we're the good guys. Even if we have an extra slice of cake when no one's looking or stay up an extra hour binging.  Or write a long-winded rant during working hours :)








EvenSteven

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Quote
This is in line with Robert Conquest's 3rd law of politics: The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies.

It's also in line with Coughlin's Law:

"There are two kinds of people in this world, the workers and the hustlers. The hustlers never work and the workers never hustle."

J Boogie

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Quote
This is in line with Robert Conquest's 3rd law of politics: The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies.

It's also in line with Coughlin's Law:

"There are two kinds of people in this world, the workers and the hustlers. The hustlers never work and the workers never hustle."

Hmm... My sense is that humans do not fit into such neat binary categories.

Montecarlo

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I don’t think there is a surreptitious cartel deliberately fomenting civil discord, but I do think the capitalist elites are very, very happy with the current state of things.

It’s gotta be great to be in their position.  No matter which party wins, they win, and nothing ever changes.

AnnaGrowsAMustache

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I don't think there's a conspiracy. Why? Because the kind of self absorbed, ego-maniacal arseholes that might be interested in one tend not to work well together. Whatever shit show humanity has going on, (and I'm not even going to address whether or not your take on it is or isn't a realistic assessment), it's evolving in an entirely organic way. The real question is, is that better or worse than a conspiracy?

J Boogie

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I don't think there's a conspiracy. Why? Because the kind of self absorbed, ego-maniacal arseholes that might be interested in one tend not to work well together. Whatever shit show humanity has going on, (and I'm not even going to address whether or not your take on it is or isn't a realistic assessment), it's evolving in an entirely organic way. The real question is, is that better or worse than a conspiracy?

I think there are genuine conspiracies of folks like Bill Gates who get together and try to solve the world's problems. I think they are often seen in a negative light because solving problems often involve tradeoffs - and these tradeoffs often involve issues that people are emotionally or religiously attached to.

Regarding your question, I think it's probably worse, as people conspiring to do evil might occasionally have a change of heart which could ripple throughout the group (think Lincoln project). Whereas the organic hive mind reality of many people independently acting in their own best interest at the expense of society means one change of heart at a time.

Metalcat

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No, there is no mastermind behind all of it coordinating the whole thing, but there are very clear and intentional forces promoting the individual conflicts that make up the whole.

Just a moderate amount of reading about history makes that self evident.

Chomsky's Who Rules The World is one particular take, and a good gathering of factual examples of organized and intentional stoking of sentiment and discontent. Regardless of your stance on his interpretations or his politics, his research and accounts are worth reading.

Also, read a detailed account of Reagan's presidency, the cold war, and the orchestration of public sentiment about war and conflict, it makes a lot of sense of US politics over the following decades. I only started reading in detail about Reagan a few years ago, and it helped frame a lot of things for me. I'm not American, so I took little interest until recently.

It also helps to understand the geo political history of the oil industry and the rises and falls of various powers in the middle East, Africa, and obviously Russia. Then there's China, but that's a beast to try and understand.

Once you start wrapping your mind around the flux of power and money, it starts being pretty intuitive how and why public sentiment is maneuvered. An obvious, classic, and entirely transparent example is the role big tobacco played in the rise of feminism.

Public sentiment needs to exist for it to be capitalized upon. Therefore, of course there are a multitude of systems at play to both promote and harness public sentiment.

So yeah, if there's social conflict, you can absolutely guarantee that there are many interested parties involved and a lot of money and power being mobilized around it.

Basically, the moment there's anything in this world that captures a bit of attention, there's an army of folks circling to try and capture the value of that attention and amplify it for their benefit.

To put it simply, none of us hold an opinion that someone else didn't actively want us to hold. It's worth trying to understand where those opinions come from.

chemistk

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I'm sure you've probably heard of the show Adam Ruins Everything, but if not now's a great time to look it up (and his [Adam Conover's] podcasts too). I know the show is kind of goofy, but there's really a lot of great things that he gets into and he's got a LOT of sources.

The full episode isn't currently available for free, but if you're so inclined you can look up pirated versions on YT (or pay, if that's your jam) - "Adam Ruins Conspiracy Theories". Here's a link to the sources that he uses to construct the handful of narratives in the episode: https://www.trutv.com/shows/adam-ruins-everything/articles/adam-ruins-conspiracy-theories.

The last 1/3 of the quotes really help to frame your (J Boogie's) explanation. Cognitive biases are borderline overused to justify things (in my opinion) but in this instance, Adam/his researchers-writers are totally spot on with the simple explanation as to why conspiracies exist - when things start to seem out of order and/or too broad for us to comprehend, we don't like it and our biases take over. We look up for patterns and make up explanations that recreate order in the chaos.

Much easier to blame the shadow-man for things than to accept that we really don't fully comprehend the world. Of course, it's totally driven by the vast amounts of information at our fingertips coupled with the constant refrain that we are being fed fake news. Logically, we assign the blame to that person we don't understand who has the means to execute the contrived motive. Deepfakes and the like certainly don't help things, either.

Perfect example of why tuning out most of the news and social media can be very healthy.

Especially to Malcat's point - the driving forces behind our perceived boogeypeople are often right in front of us. I can tell you firsthand that marketing has so much more power in crafting peoples' views of the world than any of us want to admit. Heck, just watch Mad Men to understand that.


Metalcat

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I'm sure you've probably heard of the show Adam Ruins Everything, but if not now's a great time to look it up (and his [Adam Conover's] podcasts too). I know the show is kind of goofy, but there's really a lot of great things that he gets into and he's got a LOT of sources.

The full episode isn't currently available for free, but if you're so inclined you can look up pirated versions on YT (or pay, if that's your jam) - "Adam Ruins Conspiracy Theories". Here's a link to the sources that he uses to construct the handful of narratives in the episode: https://www.trutv.com/shows/adam-ruins-everything/articles/adam-ruins-conspiracy-theories.

The last 1/3 of the quotes really help to frame your (J Boogie's) explanation. Cognitive biases are borderline overused to justify things (in my opinion) but in this instance, Adam/his researchers-writers are totally spot on with the simple explanation as to why conspiracies exist - when things start to seem out of order and/or too broad for us to comprehend, we don't like it and our biases take over. We look up for patterns and make up explanations that recreate order in the chaos.

Much easier to blame the shadow-man for things than to accept that we really don't fully comprehend the world. Of course, it's totally driven by the vast amounts of information at our fingertips coupled with the constant refrain that we are being fed fake news. Logically, we assign the blame to that person we don't understand who has the means to execute the contrived motive. Deepfakes and the like certainly don't help things, either.

Perfect example of why tuning out most of the news and social media can be very healthy.

Especially to Malcat's point - the driving forces behind our perceived boogeypeople are often right in front of us. I can tell you firsthand that marketing has so much more power in crafting peoples' views of the world than any of us want to admit. Heck, just watch Mad Men to understand that.

This is very, very true.

The most powerful manipulative/marketing force is to detect where there is a lack of information, a desire for an answer, and then to fabricate a convincing enough answer to largely unanswerable questions. It takes advantage of the very common sense suspicions that people have about their own systems, and then purports to provide them a "wiser" perspective. It's classic snake oil salesmanship.

This is what's behind anti-vaxxers. It's easy to see that you can't exactly trust the industrial medical complex, especially in the US, and it provides an entire framework through which to feel empowered by "knowledge". Like, yeah, the industrial medical complex *is* wildly corrupt, but so is the force that's trying to sell you on an altered-facts reality.

What people fail to anticipate is that there's just as much of a sale of the counter-opinions as there is of the mainstream opinions. Just because a perspective goes against the established grain, doesn't mean that perspective is any less commodified.

ctuser1

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I am surprised nobody cited this:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905

tl;dr
Clandestine conspiracies are not viable at any scale because the failure probability (of keeping it secret) rises exponentially with the number of people involved.

This paper made into prominent headlines some years ago. I remembered it from one of the major publications back in 2016.

Or, maybe I was fooled into my cocoon by the news algorithms, and served me what I would be interested in!! Who knows?!!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2020, 08:25:08 AM by ctuser1 »

Metalcat

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I am surprised nobody cited this:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905

tl;dr
Clandestine conspiracies are not viable at any scale because the failure probability (of keeping it secret) rises exponentially with the number of people involved.

This paper made into prominent headlines some years ago. I remembered it from one of the major publications back in 2016.

Or, maybe I was fooled into my cocoon by the news algorithms, and served me what I would be interested in!! Who knows?!!

This reminds me of when that documentary about root canals causing cancer and the "big medicine" conspiracy to cover it up.

I laughed my ass off every time a patient would bring it up, and would explain very, very clearly how it would take an enormous amount of collaboration between all international medical, university, and drug companies to protect the income of root canal specialists...meanwhile, no one gives a flying fuck about the incomes of root canal specialists. These are a small subset of independent small business owners who have no influence whatsoever on any industry, much less a global impact over some of the largest industries in the world.

Root canal specialists don't even have a significant impact on dentistry, much less other industries.

Absolutely hilarious.

OtherJen

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I am surprised nobody cited this:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0147905

tl;dr
Clandestine conspiracies are not viable at any scale because the failure probability (of keeping it secret) rises exponentially with the number of people involved.

This paper made into prominent headlines some years ago. I remembered it from one of the major publications back in 2016.

Or, maybe I was fooled into my cocoon by the news algorithms, and served me what I would be interested in!! Who knows?!!

This reminds me of when that documentary about root canals causing cancer and the "big medicine" conspiracy to cover it up.

I laughed my ass off every time a patient would bring it up, and would explain very, very clearly how it would take an enormous amount of collaboration between all international medical, university, and drug companies to protect the income of root canal specialists...meanwhile, no one gives a flying fuck about the incomes of root canal specialists. These are a small subset of independent small business owners who have no influence whatsoever on any industry, much less a global impact over some of the largest industries in the world.

Root canal specialists don't even have a significant impact on dentistry, much less other industries.

Absolutely hilarious.

Oh lord, yes. Or when I was a PhD-level cancer researcher, and my relatives who had barely (or not even) finished high school would complain about our (researchers') apparent big conspiracy to prevent a ubiquitous "cure for cancer" because we would stop making money. I mean, never mind that all cancers are different and have different genetic abnormalities, and even a metastasis or recurrence is different from the primary cancer (so the same treatment probably won't work twice), and that we've finally figured out how to kill cancer cells without also killing the host but that's an imperfect system...

I gave up bothering with those conversations ages ago. They're going to believe what they want, whether it's a cancer conspiracy or that brown people are taking their lazy children's jobs or that their sky daddy cares about the outcome of a college football match.

trollwithamustache

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You gotta play the hand you are dealt.

J Boogie

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No, there is no mastermind behind all of it coordinating the whole thing, but there are very clear and intentional forces promoting the individual conflicts that make up the whole.

----

So yeah, if there's social conflict, you can absolutely guarantee that there are many interested parties involved and a lot of money and power being mobilized around it.

Basically, the moment there's anything in this world that captures a bit of attention, there's an army of folks circling to try and capture the value of that attention and amplify it for their benefit.

To put it simply, none of us hold an opinion that someone else didn't actively want us to hold. It's worth trying to understand where those opinions come from.

Totally agree.

I should probably have drawn a clear line between the "divided and distracted" conspiracy theory vs all of the public sentiment massaging that individuals and groups orchestrate.

I think there ARE folks who are attempting to divide and distract, but they tend to be known entities, groups that we have already identified as hostile foreign enemies hoping we (in the case, US citizens) get divided and distracted.

The thing that I'm calling out is the vague idea that a secret group of global elites are trying to divide and distract as part of their strategy to, you know, form a one world govt & currency. Side note, this is kind of hilarious that if you search "New World Order" on youtube you'll find that this video title is used by many international relations type folks to describe an emerging state of geopolitics - and their videos all have tons of thumbs down from people who are using the search term to find like minded NWO conspiracy theorists but instead stumbled across some very dull speeches from foreign policy wonks who, I would be willing to bet, they listened to for no more than 15 seconds before deciding these boring folks are their enemy.

Wow, I used "folks" 3 times here. I must be nostalgic for Obama...

Metalcat

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No, there is no mastermind behind all of it coordinating the whole thing, but there are very clear and intentional forces promoting the individual conflicts that make up the whole.

----

So yeah, if there's social conflict, you can absolutely guarantee that there are many interested parties involved and a lot of money and power being mobilized around it.

Basically, the moment there's anything in this world that captures a bit of attention, there's an army of folks circling to try and capture the value of that attention and amplify it for their benefit.

To put it simply, none of us hold an opinion that someone else didn't actively want us to hold. It's worth trying to understand where those opinions come from.

Totally agree.

I should probably have drawn a clear line between the "divided and distracted" conspiracy theory vs all of the public sentiment massaging that individuals and groups orchestrate.

I think there ARE folks who are attempting to divide and distract, but they tend to be known entities, groups that we have already identified as hostile foreign enemies hoping we (in the case, US citizens) get divided and distracted.

The thing that I'm calling out is the vague idea that a secret group of global elites are trying to divide and distract as part of their strategy to, you know, form a one world govt & currency. Side note, this is kind of hilarious that if you search "New World Order" on youtube you'll find that this video title is used by many international relations type folks to describe an emerging state of geopolitics - and their videos all have tons of thumbs down from people who are using the search term to find like minded NWO conspiracy theorists but instead stumbled across some very dull speeches from foreign policy wonks who, I would be willing to bet, they listened to for no more than 15 seconds before deciding these boring folks are their enemy.

Wow, I used "folks" 3 times here. I must be nostalgic for Obama...

That's kind of my point though.

Some of the influences are transparent and some aren't. It's fair to say that we can't possibly know all of the influences behind the scenes or even how they are influencing.

What's ironic is that people then get influenced on the flip side when someone points this out to them. They're very willing to open their eyes to how they might be manipulated, but then buy in to a packaged conspiracy explanation, which is just as manipulative and contrived as what they think they're resisting in the first place.

Message:
You can't trust Hillary, here's the evidence that she's enormously influenced and beholden to huge corporations.

Response:
Wow, I had no idea, that's so scary.

Follow up message:
And she's part of a liberal elite pedophile sex cult that runs out of a pizza shop and ships children in wood wardrobes that you can buy on Wayfair! #savethechildren

Response:
Fuck! That's crazy! I'm so glad I found you, oh unquestionable arbiter of truth who first opened my eyes to reality!

So yes, there are puppet masters pulling strings, and some of them are frankly nefarious, and no, you can't trust what you are told at face value. However, the logical response to this is NOT to then trust a different source of information at face value. That's just absurd, but it's exactly how most people respond.

They learn they're in the matrix and then buy in 100% to the red pill version of reality because it's too uncomfortable to accept what they don't and can't necessarily know.

Montecarlo

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Message:
You can't trust Hillary, here's the evidence that she's enormously influenced and beholden to huge corporations.

Response:
Wow, I had no idea, that's so scary.

Follow up message:
And she's part of a liberal elite pedophile sex cult that runs out of a pizza shop and ships children in wood wardrobes that you can buy on Wayfair! #savethechildren

Response:
Fuck! That's crazy! I'm so glad I found you, oh unquestionable arbiter of truth who first opened my eyes to reality!

Haha that was a great example, so funny!

Bloop Bloop

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If people are too dumb to think for themselves-  whether or not there is a puppet master behind the scenes (and frankly I don't care) - then they deserve to get whatever they vote for.

I'm against vote rigging and the like, but as long as there's a fair election, and access to information on the internet, then the outcome is what society wants, whether they realise it or not.

Montecarlo

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Message:
You can't trust Hillary, here's the evidence that she's enormously influenced and beholden to huge corporations.

Response:
Wow, I had no idea, that's so scary.

Follow up message:
And she's part of a liberal elite pedophile sex cult that runs out of a pizza shop and ships children in wood wardrobes that you can buy on Wayfair! #savethechildren

Response:
Fuck! That's crazy! I'm so glad I found you, oh unquestionable arbiter of truth who first opened my eyes to reality!

Haha that was a great example, so funny!

I didn’t realize this is actually half real conspiracy theory - yikes!

skp

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And Trump hired prostitutes to pee on a bed