Author Topic: The Teacher Pay Thread  (Read 8032 times)

Telecaster

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The Teacher Pay Thread
« on: March 03, 2016, 03:39:44 PM »
Quote from: arebelspy
IMO we need to raise pay, but get rid of unions and seniority, and get higher quality into the profession via the higher pay. There's not a lot of incentive to become a teacher from a capitalistic perspective, so we get a lot of people who want to or who can't do anything else, but doesn't mean they're good at it.

Probably a longer discussion for a different thread though. :)

Here's my humble proposal (not really mine, but an amalgam of other people's thoughts).  Studies have shown that the top 1% of teachers are like ten times more effective than the average teacher.  Looking back at my education, I had a very few teachers who were amazing, quite a large number who were competent, and a smaller, but still distressingly large number, of teachers who were knuckleheads.   

So how do we pack the schools full of the top performers, so all students are getting the benefits of the rock star teachers?    Here's what we do:

A teaching job, fresh out of college would pay like $110,000/year, with a five year contract.  Of course, you have to be a top performer and demonstrate some aptitude to get a job like that.   At the end of five years you are re-evaluated.  If you are a rock star, then you get another contract, say 10 years at $150,000/year.  Whatever it is.  If you are not great at what you do, then you're done. Sorry.  And there would be a re-evaluation period every 10 years say.  to keep the job, you have to do great work and you can't coast. 

Point is, a teaching position would be viewed as a plumb job, and the best and the brightest would seriously consider taking one.  And the deadwood wouldn't remain in the system for more than a few years.  Harsh for those with the desire but not the aptitude, but sometimes desire isn't enough. 

Question:  How do you evaluate teacher performance?  That's a really good question, and I'm not an expert in that area, but I'm sure it can be done in a thoughtful, smart, and effective manner.

Question:  Wouldn't it cost a lot.  Yes.  Who cares?  The schools would be packed full of great teachers instead of knuckleheads.  The results would pay for themselves.

What is the next problem you would like me to solve? 





ncornilsen

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2016, 03:58:38 PM »
Sorry, but you've done exactly zero of the heavy lifting. The WHOLE problem is evaluating a teacher. As a conservative, I'd be all for a merit based bonus or whatnot, except it will inevitably drive worse results depending on what you evaluate.

A standardized test?
Surveys from students?
Surveys from the principle?
Surveys from the peers?

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the pitfalls with each of those.

That is where the whole thing falls apart.

Also, teacher's unions would prevent anything like this too.

Kris

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2016, 05:02:51 PM »
Sorry, but you've done exactly zero of the heavy lifting. The WHOLE problem is evaluating a teacher. As a conservative, I'd be all for a merit based bonus or whatnot, except it will inevitably drive worse results depending on what you evaluate.

A standardized test?
Surveys from students?
Surveys from the principle?
Surveys from the peers?

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the pitfalls with each of those.

That is where the whole thing falls apart.

Also, teacher's unions would prevent anything like this too.

I don't think you would have teachers unions if teachers were respected, well compensated members of the upper-middle class, as telecaster is suggesting.   You don't see a lot of engineers' unions.

Nor would you need all this micromanaging BS evaluation either, in my opinion. If teachers were truly respected, valued and compensated, the field would be in such demand that you would have a ton of rock stars, and people would be seriously on their game. You wouldn't need to offer tenure as a job-security carrot either, to be a consolation prize for lack of good pay, and it could instead go back to being what it was meant to be: a guarantor of intellectual free speech, so you couldn't get fired for teaching evolution in a school with a creationist PTO.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 05:57:27 AM by Kris »

mrpercentage

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2016, 12:42:31 AM »
I'm not a teacher and therefore not an expert but...

It is totally subjective.

Good at teaching what?
Independent thinking
Fanning creative flames
Supporting actual interests
or just ramming stuff in peoples head so they get the right bubble penciled in on a sheet?

Schools today are set up to teach worker bees to fall in line, do what they are told, and report to assembly lines on time that no longer exist in this country. They are also very good at rewarding supporting the teachers opinion just like corporate america wants. Worker bees.

Meanwhile, everyone gets a trophy, shop class is closed, music lessons are gone, art isn't important, but you should apply for the football team.

Did someone forget that teaching is an art? Just like all the arts schools no longer adequately support.

The world poisoned Socrates. They killed the worlds greatest teacher for corrupting the youth. He taught them that questions where more valuable than answers. He taught them that when questioned far enough-- most experts don't really know much

Cassie

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2016, 02:31:01 PM »
I agree that if teachers were paid a fair wage you would see the quality go up immensely.  I teach an online uni class and the students evaluate me each semester. I offer extra credit to fill out the evaluation so most of the class does it.  I am sure that if I consistently got terrible reviews that they would not renew my contract for the next semester.  You always have a few students that are not happy but if you have a ton of students not happy then that is a problem.  This is fine for the college level but you couldn't use student reviews at the lower grade level.

bwall

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2016, 06:01:52 PM »
Sorry, but you've done exactly zero of the heavy lifting. The WHOLE problem is evaluating a teacher. As a conservative, I'd be all for a merit based bonus or whatnot, except it will inevitably drive worse results depending on what you evaluate.

A standardized test?
Surveys from students?
Surveys from the principle?
Surveys from the peers?

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the pitfalls with each of those.

Very good observation. The problem is in evaluation. Perhaps the best way would be to weight each of those four values at 25% each. So everyone has a say, but no one group has too much power.

Psychstache

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2016, 06:26:08 PM »
Sorry, but you've done exactly zero of the heavy lifting. The WHOLE problem is evaluating a teacher. As a conservative, I'd be all for a merit based bonus or whatnot, except it will inevitably drive worse results depending on what you evaluate.

A standardized test?
Surveys from students?
Surveys from the principle?
Surveys from the peers?

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the pitfalls with each of those.

Very good observation. The problem is in evaluation. Perhaps the best way would be to weight each of those four values at 25% each. So everyone has a say, but no one group has too much power.

The issue is their are huge problems with accuracy in all of these areas.

What kind of results are good on standardized tests? If I teach 8th grade, and bring kids from a 2nd grade reading level to a 5th grade reading level in one school year, but they all bomb the tests because they are written at an 8th grade reading level, am I a bad teacher that should have a bad evaluation in this area? Should I be punished i my evaluation for teaching special ed or ESL instead of AP?

For the students, how can you get good info from 5 year olds? If the kids love Mrs. Smith because she gives us extra recess and play with iPads most of the day and rate her higher than Mrs. Jones who makes them do work all day, does that make sense? I imagine there would be some significant bias issues going on with many teenage students as well.

Principals should certainly have feedback as well, but often it is hard for them to continue to have a good understanding and reasonable way to judge a teacher's effectiveness. They are called to do 1001 things and don't spend much time in classrooms, and if you are more than a few years removed from the classroom, it is a challenge to be able to judge it. So then they rely on tests scores, which we discussed above.

I think it would be a huge improvement to incorporate more peer feedback into teacher evaluations. No real issues here other than the same kinds of biases that can exist with any of the parties mentioned, but at least you can diffuse that by having a wider range of peers responding.

libertarian4321

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2016, 06:47:35 AM »
Quote from: arebelspy
IMO we need to raise pay, but get rid of unions and seniority, and get higher quality into the profession via the higher pay. There's not a lot of incentive to become a teacher from a capitalistic perspective, so we get a lot of people who want to or who can't do anything else, but doesn't mean they're good at it.

Probably a longer discussion for a different thread though. :)

Here's my humble proposal (not really mine, but an amalgam of other people's thoughts).  Studies have shown that the top 1% of teachers are like ten times more effective than the average teacher.  Looking back at my education, I had a very few teachers who were amazing, quite a large number who were competent, and a smaller, but still distressingly large number, of teachers who were knuckleheads.   

So how do we pack the schools full of the top performers, so all students are getting the benefits of the rock star teachers?    Here's what we do:

A teaching job, fresh out of college would pay like $110,000/year, with a five year contract.  Of course, you have to be a top performer and demonstrate some aptitude to get a job like that.   At the end of five years you are re-evaluated.  If you are a rock star, then you get another contract, say 10 years at $150,000/year.  Whatever it is.  If you are not great at what you do, then you're done. Sorry.  And there would be a re-evaluation period every 10 years say.  to keep the job, you have to do great work and you can't coast. 

Point is, a teaching position would be viewed as a plumb job, and the best and the brightest would seriously consider taking one.  And the deadwood wouldn't remain in the system for more than a few years.  Harsh for those with the desire but not the aptitude, but sometimes desire isn't enough. 

Question:  How do you evaluate teacher performance?  That's a really good question, and I'm not an expert in that area, but I'm sure it can be done in a thoughtful, smart, and effective manner.

Question:  Wouldn't it cost a lot.  Yes.  Who cares?  The schools would be packed full of great teachers instead of knuckleheads.  The results would pay for themselves.

What is the next problem you would like me to solve?

Not sure if this is a serious post.  Or at least one written by a (sober) adult?

Lski'stash

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2016, 08:26:14 AM »
https://edpolicy.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/publications/secret-finland%E2%80%99s-success-educating-teachers.pdf

Finland has the best education system in the world. How does this happen? Here is a quote from the above article which I think will sum it up:

Becoming a primary school teacher
in Finland is a very competitive process, and only
Finland’s best and brightest are able to fulfill those
professional dreams. Every spring, thousands of
high school graduates submit their applications
to the Departments of Teacher Education in eight
Finnish universities. Normally it’s not enough to
complete high school and pass a rigorous matriculation
examination, successful candidates must
have the highest scores and excellent interpersonal
skills. Annually only about 1 in every 10 applicants
will be accepted to study to become a teacher
in Finnish primary schools, for example. Among
all categories of teacher education, about 5,000
teachers are selected from about 20,000 applicants.

In America, teachers are generally from the bottom third of college applicants. The low pay/high stress of it ensures that either people go into it who can't think of anything else to do, or the occasional bleeding heart accomplished student with super high morals that wants to teach. In addition, American teachers spend far more time working than teachers in Finland for significantly less pay. Their teachers are viewed (and paid) comparatively to doctors and lawyers. They also provide well-supported, continuous professional development for their teachers, ensuring that even the worst teachers become better.

That about sums it up. They are not evaluated in the way that American educators are. If you start off with the best and brightest, you end up with better quality teachers.

seattlecyclone

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2016, 09:18:15 AM »
Pay is clearly a big issue. When you offer enough money that you attract more applicants, you're allowed to be more selective, so quality goes up.

As a parent, I want high-quality teachers for my kid. As a taxpayer, I don't want to pay more than necessary. So it's a fine line: what is the lowest salary you can offer, while still attracting enough applicants of acceptable quality?

This amount may be different for different subjects. Starting salary in the Seattle school district is $46,728 for all teachers. This may actually be a pretty competitive offer for many college graduates, but seems rather low for good science/technology teachers. When software companies offer good engineers $100k out of college, attracting a qualified computer science teacher at less than half the pay is no easy task. I do wish the unions would allow some flexibility in this area.

maizefolk

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2016, 09:28:22 AM »
What kind of results are good on standardized tests? If I teach 8th grade, and bring kids from a 2nd grade reading level to a 5th grade reading level in one school year, but they all bomb the tests because they are written at an 8th grade reading level, am I a bad teacher that should have a bad evaluation in this area? Should I be punished i my evaluation for teaching special ed or ESL instead of AP?

The way to deal with this is called value-added modeling.* Essentially if I know how all your students scored on tests at the end of 7th grade and I know how they scored on tests at the end of 8th, as well as similar data for student scores in 7th and 8th grade for students who had other teachers in 8th grade, I can isolate the the per-student effects,** the students growing a year older effects, and the effect of spending that year specifically in your classroom. For added accuracy, I can track how well students who took your class perform in 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th grades, after correcting for the estimated teacher effects of each future teacher they take classes with, and identify 8th grade teachers who produce long lasting benefits or inflict long lasting harm on students.

Now statistics are never going to capture everything so you don't want an entirely automated system where principal (or peers) cannot weigh in and have flexibility when, for example, a teacher happens to have multiple students in their class whose parents get divorced over the year. But we really do have much more sophisticated options available for interpreting test scores than firing whichever teacher has students with the lowest scores on a standardized test and sending the teacher whose students score the highest to Hawaii.

I'm not saying there isn't also a huge amount of value in student, peer, or principal evaluations of teacher effectiveness. Analyzing scores is just the area where I have the expertise to point out how some of the the obvious concerns can be dealt with. Frankly ANY system to try to get rid of some of the worst teachers and retain more of the excellent ones would be better than just throwing our hands up and saying "we can't measure it perfectly so let's not even try."

*Statisticians are not good at giving catchy and/or politically savvy names to things.

**Negative per student effects might result from poor teachers in earlier years, learning disabilities, bad home environments, all sorts of things. Positive per student effects might result from coming in with excellent prior preparation, coming from a rich family that can afford to hire private tutors, coming from a FIRE family with parents who are engaged and helping the student learn on their own every night or other factors. In either case, these have nothing to do with the talent of the teacher, but can have strong influences on test scores.

Tom Bri

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2016, 01:10:02 PM »
In my district, the lowest paid teacher makes a bit over 40K, the highest about $110K. The average is over $60K. This area is fairly low cost of living; a nice, modern, middle-class home sells for <$150K. Teacher pay is more than sufficient. Average student spending is $11K/head. Neither the school district nor the teachers need more money.
Typically, in this area, teachers come as married pairs. We have quite a few teachers here who are married to teachers. So, double that figure for family income. These families lead a life of luxury and affluence, with boats, sports cars, lengthy vacations and pensions.

mxt0133

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2016, 03:25:56 PM »
I find it absurd that teachers are being measured and ranked on a measures that have so many factors beyond the teacher's abilities or efforts.  If I were a teacher and my performance were based on how my students perform on a test, how much they understand a concept, or how much they enjoyed learning.  I would focus all of my effort into getting a job at a school district where all the upper and upper middle class students go, I wouldn't even bother trying to improving my teaching skills at all.  Because of all the research that shows that student academic achievement is primarily dependent on parental involvement, peer influence, social expectations, and socioeconomic status.  Unfortunately most people still think students are empty vessels that knowledge can just simply be poured in to as easily as water into a cup, without taking into account individual experiences, home environments, and learning styles.

As a software engineer, there is no way in hell I would agree to have my performance evaluated as a developer, if the software I create can be run in any type of hardware or environment with no guaranties of network connectivity or continuous power supply.  Worse they can be used by users that range from being non-English speaking, illiterate, or have learning disabilities. 

And people wonder why some teachers and school districts literally take the tests and change them to the right answers when their school and individual performance are on the line.

mrpercentage

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2016, 07:28:51 PM »
I find it absurd that teachers are being measured and ranked on a measures that have so many factors beyond the teacher's abilities or efforts.  If I were a teacher and my performance were based on how my students perform on a test, how much they understand a concept, or how much they enjoyed learning.  I would focus all of my effort into getting a job at a school district where all the upper and upper middle class students go, I wouldn't even bother trying to improving my teaching skills at all.  Because of all the research that shows that student academic achievement is primarily dependent on parental involvement, peer influence, social expectations, and socioeconomic status.  Unfortunately most people still think students are empty vessels that knowledge can just simply be poured in to as easily as water into a cup, without taking into account individual experiences, home environments, and learning styles.

As a software engineer, there is no way in hell I would agree to have my performance evaluated as a developer, if the software I create can be run in any type of hardware or environment with no guaranties of network connectivity or continuous power supply.  Worse they can be used by users that range from being non-English speaking, illiterate, or have learning disabilities. 

And people wonder why some teachers and school districts literally take the tests and change them to the right answers when their school and individual performance are on the line.

Amen. You can't create something that doesn't exist. You can't teach someone how to invent an iPhone. You cant build a good student but you can improve one. That is hard to measure but standardized testing isn't the answer to everything. Jobs are not leaving because we are not qualified. Jobs leave for cheap labor

RurallyFrugal

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2016, 08:14:19 PM »
I'm a teacher.
I have a bachelor's in Mathematics and two master's degrees.
I have twelve years of seniority.
I am not a member of our state teacher union.
I gross $52,000 per year.
My contract is for 185 days per year.

I probably put in fewer non-pay days than anybody in my school. I'd say I work less than seven days off-contract in a school year (Saturday's, summer, etc.) Those aren't expected by my superiors, but sometimes you just have to to make sure you're ready to go.

I never complain about my pay. I make a middle class living working about sixty or so days less than everybody else. If you scale that figure up to a full working year it would be around $70k, and that ain't bad money for most people.

I think most states probably spend plenty per student. The problem is so little of it makes it to my level. By the time the district offices all get renovated every five years, and every supervisory position gets an assistant AND a secretary, and they all get new district-issued top of the line technology to play with to look busy, most budget increases don't make it very far. This situation is systemic in my state. But the unions stay happy because they have more dues-paying membership that way.

The problem with any evaluation based on test scores is the obvious incentive to cheat. I honestly believe if we could do away with tenure, and let those jobs be competed for every year, the average quality of teacher would go up markedly based on that alone. Twenty years of retirement-in-place is way too much. Would there be abuse of that system? Absolutely. But it couldn't be any worse for the student than what we've got now.

Fortunately, I teach at a school that has been consistently in the top ten schools in my state (both testing AND parent/teacher/student surveyed) for the last several years.

mrpercentage

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2016, 08:30:32 PM »
By the time the district offices all get renovated every five years, and every supervisory position gets an assistant AND a secretary, and they all get new district-issued top of the line technology to play with to look busy, most budget increases don't make it very far. This situation is systemic in my state. But the unions stay happy because they have more dues-paying membership that way.

The problem with any evaluation based on test scores is the obvious incentive to cheat.

Both of these plague every level of government I have ever run into. Every single one. I think its a culture problem and its wide spread.

Chris22

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2016, 07:20:23 AM »
I find it absurd that teachers are being measured and ranked on a measures that have so many factors beyond the teacher's abilities or efforts.

Sure.  But I think everyone has had excellent teachers, and everyone has had poor ones.  What we need to do is to find a system to identify each, and then have the freedom to treat them appropriately, with increased wages or pink slips.  I'll be the first to admit I haven't the faintest idea how to fairly evaluate teachers.  But we have plenty of smart people in this country who could determine a good system.  I don't really care what it is, but it needs to be done.

The other huge scope creep is administration size and pay.  I have no problem paying a generous wage for the people actually teaching my kid, but 'round these parts of Chicagoland, administrators are getting damned near $200k/yr and that is eligible for pensions, etc.  Personally, I hear about them laying off teachers all the time, but never the administrators.  And I think you need a model where the "on field talent" makes more than the coaching staff.  But I'm an outsider, maybe there's more there than I understand.

Kris

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2016, 09:21:24 AM »
To respond to Chris22^^^:

In America, teachers are generally from the bottom third of college applicants. The low pay/high stress of it ensures that either people go into it who can't think of anything else to do, or the occasional bleeding heart accomplished student with super high morals that wants to teach. In addition, American teachers spend far more time working than teachers in Finland for significantly less pay. Their teachers are viewed (and paid) comparatively to doctors and lawyers. They also provide well-supported, continuous professional development for their teachers, ensuring that even the worst teachers become better.

That about sums it up. They are not evaluated in the way that American educators are. If you start off with the best and brightest, you end up with better quality teachers.

I think that Lski'stach's quote here pretty much sums it up. I teach future teachers (I'm a university professor).  This is exactly what I would have written about the kids who go into teaching.  It absolutely is true, unfortunately, that the vast majority of my students who want to go into education are among my poorest-performing students.  This has been true for as long as I have been doing this (more than 20 years).  And then there is the occasional fantastic student who really wants to make a difference.  The problem with those students, unfortunately, is that the teacher training programs at universities have so much ridiculous hoop-jumping in the name of "assessment" and "accountability" that about half of those really fantastic students eventually drop out of the education piece and just do a non-education major in their discipline because the process disillusions them so much that they (rightly, in my view) cannot see themselves putting up with an entire career of similar drudgery for the relatively poor salary and long hours that they see as their likely future.

So, again, I will reiterate that if we made teachers' salaries very attractive and stopped thinking that the pathway to making good teachers was to evaluate them to death, we would likely see much better success.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 10:31:12 AM by Kris »

Hall11235

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2016, 02:20:58 PM »
To respond to Chris22^^^:

In America, teachers are generally from the bottom third of college applicants. The low pay/high stress of it ensures that either people go into it who can't think of anything else to do, or the occasional bleeding heart accomplished student with super high morals that wants to teach. In addition, American teachers spend far more time working than teachers in Finland for significantly less pay. Their teachers are viewed (and paid) comparatively to doctors and lawyers. They also provide well-supported, continuous professional development for their teachers, ensuring that even the worst teachers become better.

That about sums it up. They are not evaluated in the way that American educators are. If you start off with the best and brightest, you end up with better quality teachers.

I think that Lski'stach's quote here pretty much sums it up. I teach future teachers (I'm a university professor).  This is exactly what I would have written about the kids who go into teaching.  It absolutely is true, unfortunately, that the vast majority of my students who want to go into education are among my poorest-performing students.  This has been true for as long as I have been doing this (more than 20 years).  And then there is the occasional fantastic student who really wants to make a difference.  The problem with those students, unfortunately, is that the teacher training programs at universities have so much ridiculous hoop-jumping in the name of "assessment" and "accountability" that about half of those really fantastic students eventually drop out of the education piece and just do a non-education major in their discipline because the process disillusions them so much that they (rightly, in my view) cannot see themselves putting up with an entire career of similar drudgery for the relatively poor salary and long hours that they see as their likely future.

So, again, I will reiterate that if we made teachers' salaries very attractive and stopped thinking that the pathway to making good teachers was to evaluate them to death, we would likely see much better success.

This was me in a nutshell. My student teaching coordinator said I was one of the best natural teachers she'd ever seen. Teaching jobs are few and far between for secondary history teachers (my bad, I should have studied math), so, I accepted a job in the corporate world making literally tens of thousands of dollars more for FAR less work. I deserve a heart face punch for my college degree. Complete waste of my time.

I could not stand the BS that I had to go through to get my Ed degree. People who were garbage in the classroom, but could 'analyze' and 'reflect' well, outscored me on teaching assessments, even though I would tear it up in the classroom.

I think for me, teacher issues could be partly ameliorated by several factors:

1. Abolish unions - Control over the work force is essential. Good teachers are like porn - hard to describe, but you know it when you see it. Unions (at least in my limited teaching experience) prevent old bad teachers from being replaced by fresh and enthusiastic teachers.

2. Abolish the Nat'l dept. of Ed. Writing curriculum for 80 million kids is impossible. Writing curriculum for 100 was damn hard. The more we dilute the curriculum, the harder it becomes to assess both teachers and students. Curriculum should be done at the state or even the local level.

3. Pay good teachers more.

4. Allow students to chase their passions. How many people who went to school in the 60's felt that they loved their education? Wrote memorization is dead. We don't need to memorize times tables or dates in history. We have the the google for that and we should embrace that future instead of riling about how the 'young folk' are ruining America because they don't know when the Dec. of Ind. was signed. Education should be project based and the micromanaging of administrators prevents this.

5. Allow kids to go outside for class. When I student taught, I tried to get my kids outside for a lesson. In order for this to happen, I had to get signed permission from the parents of EVERY child, my coordinating teacher and my principal. The gripe is really about the absurd amount of bureaucracy that teachers have to go through on a daily basis.

6. Make teaching appealing to young people. At least two of my fellow ed students have dropped out of the profession in less than a year. The current educational system heavily favors the older teachers. You know, the ones who have taught the same lessons for 20 years and generally make students want to die from boredom (see abolish unions, point #1).

7. Eliminate standardized testing. Standardized testing is ridiculous. Literally every single human who has taught a group of children knows that those scores are garbage. What if Johnny's mom and dad kept him awake last night because they were fighting? Is Johnny a poor performer? As his teacher you would know the answer to that. In the eyes of the state, he is a poor performer, and because he did poorly, you (the teacher) also did poorly. Also, you only have two years of experience? Guess we're gonna have to let you go.

8. Pay student teachers. Probably the most whiny of my complaints. When I student taught, I worked my ass off. I drove to the school assigned to me (Wanted to bike like a good mustachian, but the principal would not allow me in the school before 7:10 to shower when school started at 7:25) using a friend's car, paid for gas, bought school supplies for some of my students who did not have them and worked for 50 hours a week. Developed, designed and implemented my own curriculum because my teaching coordinator's lessons were stale as hell. You should have seen the looks on my students' faces when I told them how much a paid per hour to be teaching them (still makes me chuckle more than a year later).

After a semester of that Garbage, there was no way I could remain idealistic about being a teacher.

I would still love to teach, maybe after I FIRE, work as a private school teacher or something like that, but, otherwise, you can have my teaching degree. I don't need it.

TL;DR - Teaching stinks from the teacher's perspective. Hard work, crappy pay, and no end in sight.

Kris

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2016, 07:47:32 PM »
To respond to Chris22^^^:

In America, teachers are generally from the bottom third of college applicants. The low pay/high stress of it ensures that either people go into it who can't think of anything else to do, or the occasional bleeding heart accomplished student with super high morals that wants to teach. In addition, American teachers spend far more time working than teachers in Finland for significantly less pay. Their teachers are viewed (and paid) comparatively to doctors and lawyers. They also provide well-supported, continuous professional development for their teachers, ensuring that even the worst teachers become better.

That about sums it up. They are not evaluated in the way that American educators are. If you start off with the best and brightest, you end up with better quality teachers.

I think that Lski'stach's quote here pretty much sums it up. I teach future teachers (I'm a university professor).  This is exactly what I would have written about the kids who go into teaching.  It absolutely is true, unfortunately, that the vast majority of my students who want to go into education are among my poorest-performing students.  This has been true for as long as I have been doing this (more than 20 years).  And then there is the occasional fantastic student who really wants to make a difference.  The problem with those students, unfortunately, is that the teacher training programs at universities have so much ridiculous hoop-jumping in the name of "assessment" and "accountability" that about half of those really fantastic students eventually drop out of the education piece and just do a non-education major in their discipline because the process disillusions them so much that they (rightly, in my view) cannot see themselves putting up with an entire career of similar drudgery for the relatively poor salary and long hours that they see as their likely future.

So, again, I will reiterate that if we made teachers' salaries very attractive and stopped thinking that the pathway to making good teachers was to evaluate them to death, we would likely see much better success.

This was me in a nutshell. My student teaching coordinator said I was one of the best natural teachers she'd ever seen. Teaching jobs are few and far between for secondary history teachers (my bad, I should have studied math), so, I accepted a job in the corporate world making literally tens of thousands of dollars more for FAR less work. I deserve a heart face punch for my college degree. Complete waste of my time.

I could not stand the BS that I had to go through to get my Ed degree. People who were garbage in the classroom, but could 'analyze' and 'reflect' well, outscored me on teaching assessments, even though I would tear it up in the classroom.

I think for me, teacher issues could be partly ameliorated by several factors:

1. Abolish unions - Control over the work force is essential. Good teachers are like porn - hard to describe, but you know it when you see it. Unions (at least in my limited teaching experience) prevent old bad teachers from being replaced by fresh and enthusiastic teachers.

2. Abolish the Nat'l dept. of Ed. Writing curriculum for 80 million kids is impossible. Writing curriculum for 100 was damn hard. The more we dilute the curriculum, the harder it becomes to assess both teachers and students. Curriculum should be done at the state or even the local level.

3. Pay good teachers more.

4. Allow students to chase their passions. How many people who went to school in the 60's felt that they loved their education? Wrote memorization is dead. We don't need to memorize times tables or dates in history. We have the the google for that and we should embrace that future instead of riling about how the 'young folk' are ruining America because they don't know when the Dec. of Ind. was signed. Education should be project based and the micromanaging of administrators prevents this.

5. Allow kids to go outside for class. When I student taught, I tried to get my kids outside for a lesson. In order for this to happen, I had to get signed permission from the parents of EVERY child, my coordinating teacher and my principal. The gripe is really about the absurd amount of bureaucracy that teachers have to go through on a daily basis.

6. Make teaching appealing to young people. At least two of my fellow ed students have dropped out of the profession in less than a year. The current educational system heavily favors the older teachers. You know, the ones who have taught the same lessons for 20 years and generally make students want to die from boredom (see abolish unions, point #1).

7. Eliminate standardized testing. Standardized testing is ridiculous. Literally every single human who has taught a group of children knows that those scores are garbage. What if Johnny's mom and dad kept him awake last night because they were fighting? Is Johnny a poor performer? As his teacher you would know the answer to that. In the eyes of the state, he is a poor performer, and because he did poorly, you (the teacher) also did poorly. Also, you only have two years of experience? Guess we're gonna have to let you go.

8. Pay student teachers. Probably the most whiny of my complaints. When I student taught, I worked my ass off. I drove to the school assigned to me (Wanted to bike like a good mustachian, but the principal would not allow me in the school before 7:10 to shower when school started at 7:25) using a friend's car, paid for gas, bought school supplies for some of my students who did not have them and worked for 50 hours a week. Developed, designed and implemented my own curriculum because my teaching coordinator's lessons were stale as hell. You should have seen the looks on my students' faces when I told them how much a paid per hour to be teaching them (still makes me chuckle more than a year later).

After a semester of that Garbage, there was no way I could remain idealistic about being a teacher.

I would still love to teach, maybe after I FIRE, work as a private school teacher or something like that, but, otherwise, you can have my teaching degree. I don't need it.

TL;DR - Teaching stinks from the teacher's perspective. Hard work, crappy pay, and no end in sight.

And again, I will reiterate re your points 1 and 3: if we paid all teachers well: a) unions would no longer be seen as necessary; and b) paying the "good" ones well would more or less take care of itself, because of increased competition. 

Rural

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2016, 05:22:46 AM »
To respond to Chris22^^^:

In America, teachers are generally from the bottom third of college applicants. The low pay/high stress of it ensures that either people go into it who can't think of anything else to do, or the occasional bleeding heart accomplished student with super high morals that wants to teach. In addition, American teachers spend far more time working than teachers in Finland for significantly less pay. Their teachers are viewed (and paid) comparatively to doctors and lawyers. They also provide well-supported, continuous professional development for their teachers, ensuring that even the worst teachers become better.

That about sums it up. They are not evaluated in the way that American educators are. If you start off with the best and brightest, you end up with better quality teachers.

I think that Lski'stach's quote here pretty much sums it up. I teach future teachers (I'm a university professor).  This is exactly what I would have written about the kids who go into teaching.  It absolutely is true, unfortunately, that the vast majority of my students who want to go into education are among my poorest-performing students.  This has been true for as long as I have been doing this (more than 20 years).  And then there is the occasional fantastic student who really wants to make a difference.  The problem with those students, unfortunately, is that the teacher training programs at universities have so much ridiculous hoop-jumping in the name of "assessment" and "accountability" that about half of those really fantastic students eventually drop out of the education piece and just do a non-education major in their discipline because the process disillusions them so much that they (rightly, in my view) cannot see themselves putting up with an entire career of similar drudgery for the relatively poor salary and long hours that they see as their likely future.

So, again, I will reiterate that if we made teachers' salaries very attractive and stopped thinking that the pathway to making good teachers was to evaluate them to death, we would likely see much better success.

This was me in a nutshell. My student teaching coordinator said I was one of the best natural teachers she'd ever seen. Teaching jobs are few and far between for secondary history teachers (my bad, I should have studied math), so, I accepted a job in the corporate world making literally tens of thousands of dollars more for FAR less work. I deserve a heart face punch for my college degree. Complete waste of my time.

I could not stand the BS that I had to go through to get my Ed degree. People who were garbage in the classroom, but could 'analyze' and 'reflect' well, outscored me on teaching assessments, even though I would tear it up in the classroom.

I think for me, teacher issues could be partly ameliorated by several factors:

1. Abolish unions - Control over the work force is essential. Good teachers are like porn - hard to describe, but you know it when you see it. Unions (at least in my limited teaching experience) prevent old bad teachers from being replaced by fresh and enthusiastic teachers.

....

3. Pay good teachers more.


And again, I will reiterate re your points 1 and 3: if we paid all teachers well: a) unions would no longer be seen as necessary; and b) paying the "good" ones well would more or less take care of itself, because of increased competition.


It's not the unions, or not just the unions. Everything Kris said above about teaching some education majors among the other students holds true in states like mine with no teachers' union.

ender

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2016, 05:35:06 AM »
To respond to Chris22^^^:

In America, teachers are generally from the bottom third of college applicants. The low pay/high stress of it ensures that either people go into it who can't think of anything else to do, or the occasional bleeding heart accomplished student with super high morals that wants to teach. In addition, American teachers spend far more time working than teachers in Finland for significantly less pay. Their teachers are viewed (and paid) comparatively to doctors and lawyers. They also provide well-supported, continuous professional development for their teachers, ensuring that even the worst teachers become better.

That about sums it up. They are not evaluated in the way that American educators are. If you start off with the best and brightest, you end up with better quality teachers.

I think that Lski'stach's quote here pretty much sums it up. I teach future teachers (I'm a university professor).  This is exactly what I would have written about the kids who go into teaching.  It absolutely is true, unfortunately, that the vast majority of my students who want to go into education are among my poorest-performing students.  This has been true for as long as I have been doing this (more than 20 years).  And then there is the occasional fantastic student who really wants to make a difference.  The problem with those students, unfortunately, is that the teacher training programs at universities have so much ridiculous hoop-jumping in the name of "assessment" and "accountability" that about half of those really fantastic students eventually drop out of the education piece and just do a non-education major in their discipline because the process disillusions them so much that they (rightly, in my view) cannot see themselves putting up with an entire career of similar drudgery for the relatively poor salary and long hours that they see as their likely future.

So, again, I will reiterate that if we made teachers' salaries very attractive and stopped thinking that the pathway to making good teachers was to evaluate them to death, we would likely see much better success.

I think this about describes why I did not ever consider becoming a teacher.

Instead, I chose engineering and am currently a software developer, making considerably more than teachers in my area and dealing with nearly none of the administrative BS associated with being a teacher.


tooqk4u22

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2016, 09:58:15 AM »
To respond to Chris22^^^:

In America, teachers are generally from the bottom third of college applicants. The low pay/high stress of it ensures that either people go into it who can't think of anything else to do, or the occasional bleeding heart accomplished student with super high morals that wants to teach. In addition, American teachers spend far more time working than teachers in Finland for significantly less pay. Their teachers are viewed (and paid) comparatively to doctors and lawyers. They also provide well-supported, continuous professional development for their teachers, ensuring that even the worst teachers become better.

That about sums it up. They are not evaluated in the way that American educators are. If you start off with the best and brightest, you end up with better quality teachers.

I think that Lski'stach's quote here pretty much sums it up. I teach future teachers (I'm a university professor).  This is exactly what I would have written about the kids who go into teaching.  It absolutely is true, unfortunately, that the vast majority of my students who want to go into education are among my poorest-performing students.  This has been true for as long as I have been doing this (more than 20 years).  And then there is the occasional fantastic student who really wants to make a difference.  The problem with those students, unfortunately, is that the teacher training programs at universities have so much ridiculous hoop-jumping in the name of "assessment" and "accountability" that about half of those really fantastic students eventually drop out of the education piece and just do a non-education major in their discipline because the process disillusions them so much that they (rightly, in my view) cannot see themselves putting up with an entire career of similar drudgery for the relatively poor salary and long hours that they see as their likely future.

So, again, I will reiterate that if we made teachers' salaries very attractive and stopped thinking that the pathway to making good teachers was to evaluate them to death, we would likely see much better success.

I think this about describes why I did not ever consider becoming a teacher.

Instead, I chose engineering and am currently a software developer, making considerably more than teachers in my area and dealing with nearly none of the administrative BS associated with being a teacher.


Me too.  I started as engineering student, decided I wanted to do something more purposeful with the math and science, took ed classes and did student teaching......no f'in way.  Everybody always thinks its about money...its not.  All the teachers I experienced and all the ones I know now liked the job.  Sure, Low'ish starting pay but it is higher than most jobs right out of college (not STEM of course), stays low for a while but then ramps up over time to pad the pension and benefits are typically covered so Total Compensation is usually not bad.  The #1 issue was the non-teaching bullshit - lack of support from administration, ridiculousness of parents (my little Timmy should have had an A because he is the smartest, if you don't change it then I will call the principal or superintendent for which they will side with the parent over the teacher), being forced to teach to the test and not actually teach to learn, class sizes.

I still have a desire to teach and may decided to do so because now FI I can do it on my terms, the money doesn't matter, and I am not tied into sticking it out if I have the wrong mix just to get a pension.  In some ways its good that I didn't become a teacher because one thing I have learned is that I like a change every few to years and that just doesn't jive with the way a teaching career is structured.

tooqk4u22

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2016, 10:06:57 AM »

The other huge scope creep is administration size and pay.  I have no problem paying a generous wage for the people actually teaching my kid, but 'round these parts of Chicagoland, administrators are getting damned near $200k/yr and that is eligible for pensions, etc.  Personally, I hear about them laying off teachers all the time, but never the administrators.  And I think you need a model where the "on field talent" makes more than the coaching staff.  But I'm an outsider, maybe there's more there than I understand.

This is a huge problem across the country, the administrative overhead grows. Unfortunately, they are the ones that have to decide who gets the ax, rarely will they choose themselves.  We have two high schools in my town, each with a principal making $175k, 4 assistant principals (non-teaching) making $150k, and countless assistant superintendents or directors of abc curriculum making from $125k to $160K.  While eliminated/reducing some of these may not afford higher wages for teachers (which I don't think they need) it would have saved the 8 teachers that got laid off, all of which were relatively newer making $50'ish because that's what the union contract dictates. 

Chris22

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2016, 10:45:29 AM »

The other huge scope creep is administration size and pay.  I have no problem paying a generous wage for the people actually teaching my kid, but 'round these parts of Chicagoland, administrators are getting damned near $200k/yr and that is eligible for pensions, etc.  Personally, I hear about them laying off teachers all the time, but never the administrators.  And I think you need a model where the "on field talent" makes more than the coaching staff.  But I'm an outsider, maybe there's more there than I understand.

This is a huge problem across the country, the administrative overhead grows. Unfortunately, they are the ones that have to decide who gets the ax, rarely will they choose themselves.  We have two high schools in my town, each with a principal making $175k, 4 assistant principals (non-teaching) making $150k, and countless assistant superintendents or directors of abc curriculum making from $125k to $160K.  While eliminated/reducing some of these may not afford higher wages for teachers (which I don't think they need) it would have saved the 8 teachers that got laid off, all of which were relatively newer making $50'ish because that's what the union contract dictates.

I have a view, somewhat cynical but still somewhat grounded in reality I think, that when choosing where to make cuts, administrators and school officials intentionally target painful things like cutting sports, arts, teacher headcount, etc, to persuade the public to reverse cuts or fund education higher.  If cutting $250k out of the budget meant cutting an administrator and tighter negotiations on, say, the text book supplier contract, no one would bat an eye.  But if they cut $250k worth of a music teacher and football buses and a couple teachers, everyone will flip out and demand the funding be restored. 

Papa Mustache

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2016, 01:16:29 PM »
Sorry, but you've done exactly zero of the heavy lifting. The WHOLE problem is evaluating a teacher. As a conservative, I'd be all for a merit based bonus or whatnot, except it will inevitably drive worse results depending on what you evaluate.

A standardized test?
Surveys from students?
Surveys from the principle?
Surveys from the peers?

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the pitfalls with each of those.

Very good observation. The problem is in evaluation. Perhaps the best way would be to weight each of those four values at 25% each. So everyone has a say, but no one group has too much power.

The issue is their are huge problems with accuracy in all of these areas.

What kind of results are good on standardized tests? If I teach 8th grade, and bring kids from a 2nd grade reading level to a 5th grade reading level in one school year, but they all bomb the tests because they are written at an 8th grade reading level, am I a bad teacher that should have a bad evaluation in this area? Should I be punished i my evaluation for teaching special ed or ESL instead of AP?

For the students, how can you get good info from 5 year olds? If the kids love Mrs. Smith because she gives us extra recess and play with iPads most of the day and rate her higher than Mrs. Jones who makes them do work all day, does that make sense? I imagine there would be some significant bias issues going on with many teenage students as well.

Principals should certainly have feedback as well, but often it is hard for them to continue to have a good understanding and reasonable way to judge a teacher's effectiveness. They are called to do 1001 things and don't spend much time in classrooms, and if you are more than a few years removed from the classroom, it is a challenge to be able to judge it. So then they rely on tests scores, which we discussed above.

I think it would be a huge improvement to incorporate more peer feedback into teacher evaluations. No real issues here other than the same kinds of biases that can exist with any of the parties mentioned, but at least you can diffuse that by having a wider range of peers responding.

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/

Looking back at professors I've known the college students certainly can pick out the lousy ones but their teachers'/professors' shortcomings are certainly not well defined on this website. What would the survey that you gave a child look like?

Kris

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2016, 02:29:53 PM »
Sorry, but you've done exactly zero of the heavy lifting. The WHOLE problem is evaluating a teacher. As a conservative, I'd be all for a merit based bonus or whatnot, except it will inevitably drive worse results depending on what you evaluate.

A standardized test?
Surveys from students?
Surveys from the principle?
Surveys from the peers?

I'm sure I don't need to spell out the pitfalls with each of those.

Very good observation. The problem is in evaluation. Perhaps the best way would be to weight each of those four values at 25% each. So everyone has a say, but no one group has too much power.

The issue is their are huge problems with accuracy in all of these areas.

What kind of results are good on standardized tests? If I teach 8th grade, and bring kids from a 2nd grade reading level to a 5th grade reading level in one school year, but they all bomb the tests because they are written at an 8th grade reading level, am I a bad teacher that should have a bad evaluation in this area? Should I be punished i my evaluation for teaching special ed or ESL instead of AP?

For the students, how can you get good info from 5 year olds? If the kids love Mrs. Smith because she gives us extra recess and play with iPads most of the day and rate her higher than Mrs. Jones who makes them do work all day, does that make sense? I imagine there would be some significant bias issues going on with many teenage students as well.

Principals should certainly have feedback as well, but often it is hard for them to continue to have a good understanding and reasonable way to judge a teacher's effectiveness. They are called to do 1001 things and don't spend much time in classrooms, and if you are more than a few years removed from the classroom, it is a challenge to be able to judge it. So then they rely on tests scores, which we discussed above.

I think it would be a huge improvement to incorporate more peer feedback into teacher evaluations. No real issues here other than the same kinds of biases that can exist with any of the parties mentioned, but at least you can diffuse that by having a wider range of peers responding.

http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/

Looking back at professors I've known the college students certainly can pick out the lousy ones but their teachers'/professors' shortcomings are certainly not well defined on this website. What would the survey that you gave a child look like?

Exactly.  And note, if you read a bunch of these, that "easiness" is a category that earns instructors high marks.  Add in helicopter parents and special snowflake children, and… well, you get my point.

RurallyFrugal

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2016, 05:22:26 AM »
To respond to Chris22^^^:

In America, teachers are generally from the bottom third of college applicants. The low pay/high stress of it ensures that either people go into it who can't think of anything else to do, or the occasional bleeding heart accomplished student with super high morals that wants to teach. In addition, American teachers spend far more time working than teachers in Finland for significantly less pay. Their teachers are viewed (and paid) comparatively to doctors and lawyers. They also provide well-supported, continuous professional development for their teachers, ensuring that even the worst teachers become better.

That about sums it up. They are not evaluated in the way that American educators are. If you start off with the best and brightest, you end up with better quality teachers.

I think that Lski'stach's quote here pretty much sums it up. I teach future teachers (I'm a university professor).  This is exactly what I would have written about the kids who go into teaching.  It absolutely is true, unfortunately, that the vast majority of my students who want to go into education are among my poorest-performing students.  This has been true for as long as I have been doing this (more than 20 years).  And then there is the occasional fantastic student who really wants to make a difference.  The problem with those students, unfortunately, is that the teacher training programs at universities have so much ridiculous hoop-jumping in the name of "assessment" and "accountability" that about half of those really fantastic students eventually drop out of the education piece and just do a non-education major in their discipline because the process disillusions them so much that they (rightly, in my view) cannot see themselves putting up with an entire career of similar drudgery for the relatively poor salary and long hours that they see as their likely future.

So, again, I will reiterate that if we made teachers' salaries very attractive and stopped thinking that the pathway to making good teachers was to evaluate them to death, we would likely see much better success.

I think this about describes why I did not ever consider becoming a teacher.

Instead, I chose engineering and am currently a software developer, making considerably more than teachers in my area and dealing with nearly none of the administrative BS associated with being a teacher.


Me too.  I started as engineering student, decided I wanted to do something more purposeful with the math and science, took ed classes and did student teaching......no f'in way.  Everybody always thinks its about money...its not.  All the teachers I experienced and all the ones I know now liked the job.  Sure, Low'ish starting pay but it is higher than most jobs right out of college (not STEM of course), stays low for a while but then ramps up over time to pad the pension and benefits are typically covered so Total Compensation is usually not bad.  The #1 issue was the non-teaching bullshit - lack of support from administration, ridiculousness of parents (my little Timmy should have had an A because he is the smartest, if you don't change it then I will call the principal or superintendent for which they will side with the parent over the teacher), being forced to teach to the test and not actually teach to learn, class sizes.

I still have a desire to teach and may decided to do so because now FI I can do it on my terms, the money doesn't matter, and I am not tied into sticking it out if I have the wrong mix just to get a pension.  In some ways its good that I didn't become a teacher because one thing I have learned is that I like a change every few to years and that just doesn't jive with the way a teaching career is structured.

I did the same. Started engineering, went to teaching. For me, it was more about staying in my community with my family more than anything else.

I do believe teachers that have some time in get compensated pretty adequately. New teachers don't make enough, especially because most states REQUIRE you to go get a Masters in the first 5-10 years of your career. More school equals more pay as you rank up. To make it the most cost effective, you try to finish as early as possible, and that's a ton more debt on a new teacher salary. And you hear about loan forgiveness programs for teachers, but they're mostly garbage.

One thing lately I've seen is more and more experienced teachers saying no to all the unpaid after school meetings, "required" trips to development meetings where you foot the bills, etc. Literally, there's some new initiative every term, with more paperwork, evidence, data-tracking, and so forth. Mostly it's to justify someone's job at the district office, or my new favorite, our educational cooperative office. The district office makes the principal send someone, and all the experienced (tenured) folks say hell no, I'm tired of them wasting my time. So it's the newbie that has to go, further straining his/her time and resources. It's the death of a thousand cuts.

hedgefund10

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2016, 07:50:25 PM »
They are overpaid. End of Story.

[MOD NOTE:  That's not particular helpful, nor does it make or address a logical argument or point.]


They are paid $60K for 8 months of babysitting.

(Mods you can lock this thread. No further discussion needed)

[MOD NOTE:  I don't see why that would be the case]


See above.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 08:57:47 PM by hedgefund10 »

Chris22

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2016, 08:38:51 AM »
Literally, there's some new initiative every term, with more paperwork, evidence, data-tracking, and so forth. Mostly it's to justify someone's job at the district office, or my new favorite, our educational cooperative office.

Always amuses me when teachers think this sort of thing is unique to their profession. 

gaja

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Re: The Teacher Pay Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2016, 09:11:35 AM »
To add to the Finland part of the discussion. Nearly all teachers in Finland are part of the Teacher's Union, and the government and union work together to improve the school: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/justin-snider/keys-to-finnish-education_b_836802.html

If you look at "the best and brightest" - what appeals to them in a job? What types of jobs do they thrive in, and what causes them to leave? Very often it has little to do with pay (as long as it is above a reasonable level), and a lot to do with freedom: Freedom to do the job in the way they think is best, freedom to use different techniques, freedom to spend as much or as little time on the different tasks as possible, and freedom from micromanagement.

I think we will attract the best teachers and achieve the best results if we set clear targets, give them a reasonable amount of resources to use as they see fit, and then, and this is the important part: Leave them the fuck alone to do the job they have spent years training for!