Author Topic: The Silent Generation  (Read 3090 times)

blue_green_sparks

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The Silent Generation
« on: May 26, 2025, 07:01:50 AM »
They sure get the rose-colored glasses treatment these days by post-boomers. Their point of reference is "Saving Private Ryan". We could point out the isolationists standing by and watching fascism take over Europe, Nazi rallies in New York or perhaps we could mention the Archie Bunker prototype that was pretty much dead-on with every pre-boomer in my family. They did save the "free world", but the hippies had more than a few valid points of protest. Now many of that same generation that spawned hippies is looking to revert to pre-1960s way of life?

I realize now that "taught history" is a merely reflection of current and local attitudes. I should have realized this when I was taught about the "war of northern aggression" when we relocated to 1970s Florida. Robert E Lee was this mythical gentleman hero. Streets and schools. I'll give credit to post-boomers on that. There is right now a picture of me (on the fridge), playing bass guitar at a high-school event, standing in front of a huge Confederate battle flag. I guess I could photo-shop it to reflect my current thoughts now. I will leave there as a stark reminder. It is all about context.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2025, 08:27:05 AM »
This is very US specific.

Canada,  Australia and New Zealand , among others, declared war very soon after Britain did.  They poured people and supplies into the war effort.

My FIL was in the Canadian Air Force.  My father tried to enlist 3 times, but was refused because he was in an essential civilian occupation.  He was on the first convoy into the Mediterranean, the ship next to his was hit and limped to Tripoli.  It could have been his ship.

Gentile Danes saved 90% of Jewish Danes when Germany decided to round them up.

Lots of inspiring actions before and during WWII.

Metalcat

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2025, 09:01:16 AM »
They sure get the rose-colored glasses treatment these days by post-boomers. Their point of reference is "Saving Private Ryan". We could point out the isolationists standing by and watching fascism take over Europe, Nazi rallies in New York or perhaps we could mention the Archie Bunker prototype that was pretty much dead-on with every pre-boomer in my family. They did save the "free world", but the hippies had more than a few valid points of protest. Now many of that same generation that spawned hippies is looking to revert to pre-1960s way of life?

I realize now that "taught history" is a merely reflection of current and local attitudes. I should have realized this when I was taught about the "war of northern aggression" when we relocated to 1970s Florida. Robert E Lee was this mythical gentleman hero. Streets and schools. I'll give credit to post-boomers on that. There is right now a picture of me (on the fridge), playing bass guitar at a high-school event, standing in front of a huge Confederate battle flag. I guess I could photo-shop it to reflect my current thoughts now. I will leave there as a stark reminder. It is all about context.

Take a look at the book Prequel by Rachel Maddow if you want a really thorough exploration of that time in American history.

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2025, 09:57:15 AM »
Also check out the 1991 book Generations by William Strauss and Neil Howe.

In their model, American history can be explained through the lens of four generational archetypes ranging from the heroic and sacrificial civilization-savers to more indulgent, rebellious, and tear-it-all-down generations. Boomers rebelled against the strict hierarchies, rules, roles, and collectivist norms instituted by their parents' generation to get though the hard times of depression and war. GenX doubled down with cynicism and distrust of institutions, and even greater individualism. Through the Strauss and Howe lens, we're now (80 years or 4 generations past the end of WW2) probably close to peak individualistic indulgence and a full teardown of the post WW2 order, lining ourselves up for the next period of crisis in which a generation (Alpha?) will have to sacrifice and work collectively to struggle through.

Strauss and Howe trace the same pattern back through earlier 4-generation cycles. For example, the Revolution and the Civil War were won by heroic generational archetypes, four generations apart and also four generations from WW2.

Chris Pascale

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2025, 12:30:08 PM »
There is right now a picture of me (on the fridge), playing bass guitar at a high-school event, standing in front of a huge Confederate battle flag. I guess I could photo-shop it to reflect my current thoughts now. I will leave there as a stark reminder. It is all about context.

In Leesville, Louisiana they kept the separate water fountains at City Hall for this reason.

DoubleDown

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2025, 12:54:37 PM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.

RetiredAt63

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2025, 02:20:05 PM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.

I think back to WWII and the merchant marines running supplies in the North Atlantic.   If they were torpedoed they were just dead as if they were in the navy.  The weather was vicious.

What about the civilians on the first convoy into the Mediterranean?  They were taking as big a risk as the navy.

And they were not eligible for military benefits.

I point this out not to downgrade the forces, but to show  that in times of war a lot of civilians are in harm's way by virtue of their jobs.

Nords

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2025, 05:53:47 PM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.
You're welcome, and thanks for your support.

I served for over two decades to help protect your First Amendment right to write paragraphs like that.

Dicey

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2025, 07:17:07 PM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.
You're welcome, and thanks for your support.

I served for over two decades to help protect your First Amendment right to write paragraphs like that.
Thanks, Nords. I wouldn't have said that as eloquently as you did. Thank you for your service. Of course, I mean you singular and you plural.

DoubleDown

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2025, 09:02:16 PM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.
You're welcome, and thanks for your support.

I served for over two decades to help protect your First Amendment right to write paragraphs like that.

This is exactly the kind of reaction I feared and, unfortunately, it kind of proves my point. I do not intend to convey ingratitude. You and other military members do have my support, and those that made sacrifices to protect all of our rights deserve gratitude. I also served (in a slightly different capacity) for about 20 years, right alongside great military members. I don't expect any platitudes about my "service." But why interpret my statement as ingratitude? Why assume I'm not aware of my rights and how they've been protected? My point is that not all military members are great -- that's all.

My apologies that my statement caused offense. I would also invite you to reflect on why my saying that not all military members are heroes causes such a reaction and assumption that I am ungrateful. Some military members have done tremendous things for the country and given their lives in service. Some have been supreme a-holes. And most have been somewhere in-between. Does the current POTUS deserve a very special "thanks for his service" as Commander in Chief (twice, no less)?

Metalcat

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2025, 04:50:57 AM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.
You're welcome, and thanks for your support.

I served for over two decades to help protect your First Amendment right to write paragraphs like that.

This is exactly the kind of reaction I feared and, unfortunately, it kind of proves my point. I do not intend to convey ingratitude. You and other military members do have my support, and those that made sacrifices to protect all of our rights deserve gratitude. I also served (in a slightly different capacity) for about 20 years, right alongside great military members. I don't expect any platitudes about my "service." But why interpret my statement as ingratitude? Why assume I'm not aware of my rights and how they've been protected? My point is that not all military members are great -- that's all.

My apologies that my statement caused offense. I would also invite you to reflect on why my saying that not all military members are heroes causes such a reaction and assumption that I am ungrateful. Some military members have done tremendous things for the country and given their lives in service. Some have been supreme a-holes. And most have been somewhere in-between. Does the current POTUS deserve a very special "thanks for his service" as Commander in Chief (twice, no less)?

Up here in Canada we're in the midst of a massive leadership crisis over grievous misconduct within our military that leadership has ignored and suppressed for years. A quote from CBC:

"Experts say they can't think of another military anywhere else in the world that has seen so many senior leaders swept up in scandal at the same time."

So yeah, we're very comfortable up here with holding two things at once: intense respect and gratitude for what our military does for us, and heavy criticism of profoundly unethical conduct at the same time.

Two things can be true at once, both at the organizational level and at the individual level. Our military is simultaneously deserving of respect AND deserving of condemnation. And we have individual soldiers who been exemplary soldiers AND are horrible, unethical people and have ended up in jail for it. 

As a parallel, there are plenty of healthcare professionals who are also deserving of criticism and prosecution, and don't get a universal pass for their behaviour just because either they save lives or their profession does.

Holding organizations and the people within them accountable is how we keep them ethical and effective. Suppressing criticism is how institutions develop the kind of toxic culture the Canadian military is struggling to fix, and failing miserably to do so I might add.

One of our most prominent female military service members literally quit a few years ago because the reports on the massive scandal and the extent of the silence and lack of accountability was so disgusting that she saw no path forward. That's what happens when there's a lack of accountability for awfulness.

She publicly asserted that the military should even drop the name "Operation Honour" from its current campaign to address the problems because the problem is so pervasive and so unfixable that the name is a meaningless joke at this point.

Should our militaries and the people who serve it be respected for the massive benefits it/they provide to our countries? Absolutely. Should that absolve them from criticism? Absolutely not.

One of my close friends is a General and we've had so many deep, difficult, complex conversations that veer into profoundly existential territory because of his lifelong dedication to military service and his full awareness and participation in the unavoidable practice of not taking accountability.  He says that with each increase in rank, he takes a step closer to being targeted in this issue because it's literally impossible to have any leadership in the military and not be complicit. The only way to not be part of the problem is to not serve, and that's a brutal rock and hard place to be stuck between.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2025, 07:20:05 AM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.
You're welcome, and thanks for your support.

I served for over two decades to help protect your First Amendment right to write paragraphs like that.

This is exactly the kind of reaction I feared and, unfortunately, it kind of proves my point. I do not intend to convey ingratitude. You and other military members do have my support, and those that made sacrifices to protect all of our rights deserve gratitude. I also served (in a slightly different capacity) for about 20 years, right alongside great military members. I don't expect any platitudes about my "service." But why interpret my statement as ingratitude? Why assume I'm not aware of my rights and how they've been protected? My point is that not all military members are great -- that's all.

My apologies that my statement caused offense. I would also invite you to reflect on why my saying that not all military members are heroes causes such a reaction and assumption that I am ungrateful. Some military members have done tremendous things for the country and given their lives in service. Some have been supreme a-holes. And most have been somewhere in-between. Does the current POTUS deserve a very special "thanks for his service" as Commander in Chief (twice, no less)?

When I saw your post I immediately understood where you were coming from.  But then I’m in Law Enforcement and at times I have been assigned to protect some military EOD techs in the US as they are working in a more civilian capacity on US soil conducting bomb sweeps.  I also work with a lot of veterans in that capacity, many are awesome, some I wonder how they survived past age 5.

Morning Glory

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2025, 09:10:35 AM »
In addition to the accountability thing, I think to hold any professional group up as "heroes" (or whatever the term du jour is) does them a disservice by creating unrealistic expectations in the minds of the public in terms of how much sacrifice  is expected. This can result in lower compensation and worse working conditions compared to workers with the same education level in non "heroic" professions.  All workers have the same human needs and human frailties.

 If your job has an "appreciation week", you are probably underpaid.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2025, 09:12:06 AM by Morning Glory »

classicrando

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2025, 08:49:01 AM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.
You're welcome, and thanks for your support.

I served for over two decades to help protect your First Amendment right to write paragraphs like that.

This is exactly the kind of reaction I feared and, unfortunately, it kind of proves my point. I do not intend to convey ingratitude. You and other military members do have my support, and those that made sacrifices to protect all of our rights deserve gratitude. I also served (in a slightly different capacity) for about 20 years, right alongside great military members. I don't expect any platitudes about my "service." But why interpret my statement as ingratitude? Why assume I'm not aware of my rights and how they've been protected? My point is that not all military members are great -- that's all.

My apologies that my statement caused offense. I would also invite you to reflect on why my saying that not all military members are heroes causes such a reaction and assumption that I am ungrateful. Some military members have done tremendous things for the country and given their lives in service. Some have been supreme a-holes. And most have been somewhere in-between. Does the current POTUS deserve a very special "thanks for his service" as Commander in Chief (twice, no less)?

I get where you're coming from.  Though, personally, I'm a little foggy on which circumstances the military actively and successfully protected my rights in my lifetime.  Is this supposed to be a metaphorical or theoretical protection; or am I missing a specific operation where our sovereignty was threatened by a foreign power?

DoubleDown

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2025, 03:33:27 PM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.
You're welcome, and thanks for your support.

I served for over two decades to help protect your First Amendment right to write paragraphs like that.

This is exactly the kind of reaction I feared and, unfortunately, it kind of proves my point. I do not intend to convey ingratitude. You and other military members do have my support, and those that made sacrifices to protect all of our rights deserve gratitude. I also served (in a slightly different capacity) for about 20 years, right alongside great military members. I don't expect any platitudes about my "service." But why interpret my statement as ingratitude? Why assume I'm not aware of my rights and how they've been protected? My point is that not all military members are great -- that's all.

My apologies that my statement caused offense. I would also invite you to reflect on why my saying that not all military members are heroes causes such a reaction and assumption that I am ungrateful. Some military members have done tremendous things for the country and given their lives in service. Some have been supreme a-holes. And most have been somewhere in-between. Does the current POTUS deserve a very special "thanks for his service" as Commander in Chief (twice, no less)?

I get where you're coming from.  Though, personally, I'm a little foggy on which circumstances the military actively and successfully protected my rights in my lifetime.  Is this supposed to be a metaphorical or theoretical protection; or am I missing a specific operation where our sovereignty was threatened by a foreign power?

May I assume you are directing your question to Nords, and not me?

classicrando

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2025, 05:51:16 AM »
I have definitely also noticed the OP's experience with the "silent aka greatest generation" being treated with rose-colored glasses, and the reference to "Saving Private Ryan!" It's right there in the name, and I thought it was ridiculous when I first heard it. It is very similar to the hero worship that is often afforded to every single member of the military, which I also do not understand. There are so many other people/professions that make sacrifices and do amazing things, but somehow if you're in the military you're instantly a hero that should be stopped on the street and thanked for your service. I have plenty of gratitude for people in the military who have made sacrifices, but I'm also keenly aware that the military is a large cross-section of society complete with murderers, rapists, drug dealers, racists, just a person looking for a job, and plenty of regular folks just getting by. And as Jack Reacher points out at some time in the novel series, there's a non-trivial number who specifically sign up to kill other people. But they are to be stopped and thanked too because, you know, military.
You're welcome, and thanks for your support.

I served for over two decades to help protect your First Amendment right to write paragraphs like that.

This is exactly the kind of reaction I feared and, unfortunately, it kind of proves my point. I do not intend to convey ingratitude. You and other military members do have my support, and those that made sacrifices to protect all of our rights deserve gratitude. I also served (in a slightly different capacity) for about 20 years, right alongside great military members. I don't expect any platitudes about my "service." But why interpret my statement as ingratitude? Why assume I'm not aware of my rights and how they've been protected? My point is that not all military members are great -- that's all.

My apologies that my statement caused offense. I would also invite you to reflect on why my saying that not all military members are heroes causes such a reaction and assumption that I am ungrateful. Some military members have done tremendous things for the country and given their lives in service. Some have been supreme a-holes. And most have been somewhere in-between. Does the current POTUS deserve a very special "thanks for his service" as Commander in Chief (twice, no less)?

I get where you're coming from.  Though, personally, I'm a little foggy on which circumstances the military actively and successfully protected my rights in my lifetime.  Is this supposed to be a metaphorical or theoretical protection; or am I missing a specific operation where our sovereignty was threatened by a foreign power?

May I assume you are directing your question to Nords, and not me?

Yeah, I but I was riffing off of what you said about knowing how your rights had been protected.  I genuinely can't think of a historical circumstance where the US military actively, and in a concrete manner (not theoretical "we fight the 'bad guys' there so we don't fight them here" sort of way), protected the rights of US citizens.

I dunno, maybe if the Marines sent to LA mutiny against illegal orders?  That would be a pretty active preservation of rights.

Sailor Sam

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2025, 08:07:39 AM »
I genuinely can't think of a historical circumstance where the US military actively, and in a concrete manner (not theoretical "we fight the 'bad guys' there so we don't fight them here" sort of way), protected the rights of US citizens.

I dunno, maybe if the Marines sent to LA mutiny against illegal orders?  That would be a pretty active preservation of rights.

This is not a suggestion that the military has always gotten it right, but for concrete examples: WWII, desegregation, the Rodney King riots, every hurricane that needed federal aid to survive and recover from, every cyber attack that has been prevented, the daily use of unspoofed GPS. Americans have (had?) genuine freedom to (mostly*) walk down the street without fear, and part of that is the unholy might of the US military. The US military is doing a metric ton of stuff behind the scenes that most citizens don't know about. Debating the limits of those actions is a great, and required, thing, but assuming they aren't happening because you can't see them is a simplistic world view.


*I acknowledge this is changing, which is deeply concerning. And that historically certain groups had far more freedom than others. In aggregate I hold by the statement.

Nords

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2025, 09:30:51 AM »
I get where you're coming from.  Though, personally, I'm a little foggy on which circumstances the military actively and successfully protected my rights in my lifetime.  Is this supposed to be a metaphorical or theoretical protection; or am I missing a specific operation where our sovereignty was threatened by a foreign power?
We swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign & domestic. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services_Oath_of_Office

And yes, American military forces have carried out a number of operations where sovereignty was (and is) perceived to be threatened by foreign powers.  That deterrence happened before our lifetimes, during mine (and hopefully yours), and it's expected to carry on after we're gone.

If you want to state that it's metaphorical or theoretical then that's fine too-- it's your right.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2025, 12:00:09 PM by Nords »

classicrando

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2025, 10:04:40 AM »
I genuinely can't think of a historical circumstance where the US military actively, and in a concrete manner (not theoretical "we fight the 'bad guys' there so we don't fight them here" sort of way), protected the rights of US citizens.

I dunno, maybe if the Marines sent to LA mutiny against illegal orders?  That would be a pretty active preservation of rights.

This is not a suggestion that the military has always gotten it right, but for concrete examples: WWII, desegregation, the Rodney King riots, every hurricane that needed federal aid to survive and recover from, every cyber attack that has been prevented, the daily use of unspoofed GPS. Americans have (had?) genuine freedom to (mostly*) walk down the street without fear, and part of that is the unholy might of the US military. The US military is doing a metric ton of stuff behind the scenes that most citizens don't know about. Debating the limits of those actions is a great, and required, thing, but assuming they aren't happening because you can't see them is a simplistic world view.


*I acknowledge this is changing, which is deeply concerning. And that historically certain groups had far more freedom than others. In aggregate I hold by the statement.

Thank you for answering, I appreciate you taking the time to do that.  Your response is literally what I was looking for when I asked, even if some of the responses are before my time.  I did not know the military was involved in thwarting cyber attacks, as I thought all that fell under NSA/FBI collaboration.  Regarding hurricanes/natural disasters, yes, the National Guard does do a lot of work in the wake of those.  I will admit that often forget they are actually a military service and part of the Department of Defense.  It always feels like they should be part of the Department of the Interior or something.  That is totally my oversight.

To be clear--I am not trying to be a dick with these questions, but what is the functional difference between a bridge built by the Army Corps of Engineers, and one built by the Works Progress Administration?  Did we specifically need the Army to build that bridge and should its construction be justification of/credit to military expenditure?  Why does it feel like everything in this country needs to be tied in to the military somehow; like every other public service--construction, disaster response, search and rescue, higher educational access, etc.--is secondary to and contingent on combat readiness?

classicrando

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2025, 10:11:41 AM »
If you want to state that it's metaphorical or theoretical then that's fine too-- it's your right.

I'm getting my sass out while it's still largely unpunishable to do so.  ;p

Sailor Sam

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2025, 12:03:39 PM »
Thank you for answering, I appreciate you taking the time to do that.  Your response is literally what I was looking for when I asked, even if some of the responses are before my time.  I did not know the military was involved in thwarting cyber attacks, as I thought all that fell under NSA/FBI collaboration.  Regarding hurricanes/natural disasters, yes, the National Guard does do a lot of work in the wake of those.  I will admit that often forget they are actually a military service and part of the Department of Defense.  It always feels like they should be part of the Department of the Interior or something.  That is totally my oversight.

To be clear--I am not trying to be a dick with these questions, but what is the functional difference between a bridge built by the Army Corps of Engineers, and one built by the Works Progress Administration?  Did we specifically need the Army to build that bridge and should its construction be justification of/credit to military expenditure?  Why does it feel like everything in this country needs to be tied in to the military somehow; like every other public service--construction, disaster response, search and rescue, higher educational access, etc.--is secondary to and contingent on combat readiness?

My personal take on why the military is different is the intensity of sacrifices made. Service members have voluntarily given up many constitutional civil rights, and are instead subjects under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Enlisted members are continually under service obligations (they re-enlist every time their current contract expires), and commissioned officers enter and exit service agreements several times in a career based on schooling and billet posting, meaning they can't just quit. They move every 2-3 years, which has multiple repercussions for friendships and family. They deploy to unstable places, and get injured. They experience intense situations that most of society cannot relate to. Once indoctrinated into a service, they will never return to being a civilian, and reintegration into that world can be very alienating and difficult. They sometimes die.

There are other jobs that demand quite a bit of sacrifice, but I honestly can't think of one besides military service that has all of the sacrifices made by service members. I don't like being thanked for service. It makes me squirm, and is generally icky. But I will stand by the fact that the bridge built by the SeaBees is different than the bridge built by the WPA.

That said, I think there are reasonable questions as to why the SeeBees needed to be building that particular bridge, and what America is gaining from it.

GuitarStv

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2025, 12:38:34 PM »
I get where you're coming from.  Though, personally, I'm a little foggy on which circumstances the military actively and successfully protected my rights in my lifetime.  Is this supposed to be a metaphorical or theoretical protection; or am I missing a specific operation where our sovereignty was threatened by a foreign power?
We swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign & domestic. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services_Oath_of_Office

The problem though, is that this oath is purely window dressing.  It holds no basis in reality.  The US military operates under a chain of command and when the head of that chain is bad, the military will happily follow that regardless of any oath related to the Constitution.

Quote
I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

Off the top of my head:

- The first amendment prohibits government retaliation for constitutionally protected speech - including based upon viewpoint.  Trump's administration has retaliated against legal firms and universities for holding views he didn't like.

- Trump has proposed ending (and his administration has gamed out ways to deny people) birthright citizenship in violation of the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment.  Trump has repeatedly denied due process for people he has deported, in violation of the Due Process Clause of the 14th amendment.

- Trump has violated the Emoluments Clause (Article I, Section 9, Clause 8) multiple times, most recently by formally accepting a 400 million dollar jet from Qatar.

- Trump has violated the 10th amendment by deploying the national guard (and now the US military) in California to suppress protest, against the wishes of the governor of the state.


As we can see, Trump has violated the US constitution multiple times already.  The US military is not defending the US constitution against the president.  The oath is therefore worthless.

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Re: The Silent Generation
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2025, 09:29:41 AM »
I want to point out that you are talking about the Greatest Generation, Not the Silent Generation. The GG were adults during WWII, “Saving Private Ryan”.  The Silent Generation were children during the war. My parents were both born during WWII and are silent generation.  I don’t think that generation is looked at with rose coloured glasses. That generation, much like their Gen X children are generally ignored, or confused with being a part of the generation before.