The Election Results Thread

[music lover]

Sigh... Even more willfully obtuse. If you can't even admit that maybe, just maybe Trump just did the tiniest, ittiest little bit of courting bigots and xenophobes for their votes, there's no helping you. I'm not even asking you to acknowledge that Trump himself is a bigot or that he might be a bad president. Are you trolling or do you really think him literally saying "it's ok to hate" is what we're talking about here?!? smh.

Assume that is true. Now look at the other side. Are you willing to admit that Hillary courted BLM racist thugs and people that are in the country illegally?

What's the difference?

[frugalnacho]

It's crazy.  There was never any hatred towards gays/trans/blacks/women/etc until trump was elected.  /s

Are you being willfully obtuse here? The point is that the (soon to be) most powerful person on the planet has basically just told these bigots that their hate is not only OK, but that they should feel comfortable expressing it as they see fit. Can you seriously not understand how this is terrifying to groups that are potential targets of that hate?

His privilege is showing... And for those who say that white privilege is a myth... this is what it looks like.

Yes I am an intelligent, straight, white male living in america.  On the entire spectrum of humanity I hit the jackpot and I realize it.

I never said that Trumps views are ok, nor did I say I can't understand how it's not terrifying to groups that are targets of that hatred.  In fact I said the exact opposite, I can totally understand it, however committing suicide because of it is a completely unreasonable  and extreme over reaction.

Or the straw that broke the camels back right?

I know you have acknowledged your privilege before, but do you stand up for people that you see on the streets being picked on?  Do you tell your coworkers to stop the racist or homophobic talk at work?  or do you just listen and laugh...

More white males like you, like me need to step up and say something.

The straw that broke the camels back?  Back to my original point: He literally just got elected and isn't even in office for another 2 1/2 months.  He talks a lot of shit, but nothing is even happening yet.  I think suicide in the event that he actually follows through on repealing/overturning legislation and every worst case scenario for [insert oppressed minority] is an extreme over reaction. But committing suicide months before he even takes office, on the chance he might repeal some law, or officially promote hatred/discrimination? That is even more extreme.  I wish I had a word that was even more extreme than extreme. 

Yes I stand up for people if I see them being discriminated against.  I openly speak out when I hear people expressing discriminatory views.  I don't like it and I think the world would be a better place if people just stopped hating other people for no reason. 

[Lagom]

Sigh... Even more willfully obtuse. If you can't even admit that maybe, just maybe Trump just did the tiniest, ittiest little bit of courting bigots and xenophobes for their votes, there's no helping you. I'm not even asking you to acknowledge that Trump himself is a bigot or that he might be a bad president. Are you trolling or do you really think him literally saying "it's ok to hate" is what we're talking about here?!? smh.

Assume that is true. Now look at the other side. Are you willing to admit that Hillary courted BLM racist thugs and people that are in the country illegally?

What's the difference?

LOL. I don't have the time or inclination to educate you enough on civil rights and privilege for you to know why that comparison is asinine. Plus I very much doubt you would be receptive to learning anyway. So feel free to think I'm a liberal shill.

[TexasRunner]

The truth is that the hate has always been here.  But Trump has normalized it again.  He has basically said it is ok to hate. 

Yes there are laws in place, but Trump has said that he will do everything in his power to repeal these laws, so many are already not following them.  many feel that all process in the LGBT movement will be lost with trump as president, and that is a fair thought, in my opinion.

People brushing it off as if it always has been there, we cant fix it, there is no point in trying is a large part of the issue.  We need to take a stand for the betterment of the whole human race.

(1) Show me where and how Trump said "It is ok to hate"

and

(2) I'm pretty sure Trump isn't going to be repealing any laws about assault- seeing as that is what frugalnacho was talking about.

1. Watch any of his early rallies.  Where he is saying he will pay the lawyer bills if the beat the shit out of some one who disagrees.  Where he makes fun of the handicapped person, where he grabs women by the pussy... come on why do I have to even explain this.

2. repeal, maybe not, but complete disregard...

Specific links?  Seriously.

Edit:  I'm asking for specific examples because it is apparent (from the election results) that half the country (or nearly half) has been talking in an echo chamber without actually listening to the other side.  Combine that with the media that has been cramming HRC down everyone's throat as well as teaming up (across the left and the right) to paint Trump as a homicidal maniac in the primaries and you get the result of people genuinely not understanding the other side.

Because of this, Yes, I legitimately question why you think he said "It is ok to hate" because you have been primed and framed to see him as such.  If you would revisit what he said now, with the context of this election behind us, you might just realize that he didn't say what you heard (and were told by the media).

[former player]

I never said that Trumps views are ok, nor did I say I can't understand how it's not terrifying to groups that are targets of that hatred.  In fact I said the exact opposite, I can totally understand it, however committing suicide because of it is a completely unreasonable  and extreme over reaction.

Look, you don't get to say that.  You are not that person, you don't understand their situation.  It may look "unreasonable" to you, or an "extreme over reaction" to you.  But you are not walking in their shoes and don't get to say how they feel or how they should or should not react. You don't get to judge their reaction by your own standards and situation, and by your own lack of understanding and empathy.

If you want to carry on with making such statements, you need to qualify them.  Instead of making the bald statement that someone else's actions are unreasonable and extreme, you would do better to acknowledge that there are people, who are American citizens just like you, who are being pushed to extremes you can't fathom because they are being subjected to levels of pain which are outside your experience and understanding.

[Jack]

(1) Show me where and how Trump said "It is ok to hate"

Because unlimited bigotry and hate is A-OK as long as it's not explicitly stated?

Are you willing to admit that Hillary courted BLM racist thugs and people that are in the country illegally?

Contrary to your apparent delusion, BLM isn't racist. And WTF do illegal immigrants have to do with any of this? It's like you're playing bigoted dog-whistle bingo or something.

[Lagom]

The truth is that the hate has always been here.  But Trump has normalized it again.  He has basically said it is ok to hate. 

Yes there are laws in place, but Trump has said that he will do everything in his power to repeal these laws, so many are already not following them.  many feel that all process in the LGBT movement will be lost with trump as president, and that is a fair thought, in my opinion.

People brushing it off as if it always has been there, we cant fix it, there is no point in trying is a large part of the issue.  We need to take a stand for the betterment of the whole human race.

(1) Show me where and how Trump said "It is ok to hate"

and

(2) I'm pretty sure Trump isn't going to be repealing any laws about assault- seeing as that is what frugalnacho was talking about.

1. Watch any of his early rallies.  Where he is saying he will pay the lawyer bills if the beat the shit out of some one who disagrees.  Where he makes fun of the handicapped person, where he grabs women by the pussy... come on why do I have to even explain this.

2. repeal, maybe not, but complete disregard...

Specific links?  Seriously.

Edit:  I'm asking for specific examples because it is apparent (from the election results) that half the country (or nearly half) has been talking in an echo chamber without actually listening to the other side.  Combine that with the media that has been cramming HRC down everyone's throat as well as teaming up (across the left and the right) to paint Trump as a homicidal maniac in the primaries and you get the result of people genuinely not understanding the other side.

Because of this, Yes, I legitimately question why you think he said "It is ok to hate" because you have been primed and framed to see him as such.  If you would revisit what he said now, with the context of this election behind us, you might just realize that he didn't say what you heard (and were told by the media).

These things were extremely widely reported on and there are numerous video clips where you can see these sorts of words come directly out of Donald Trump's mouth. No media spin, no agenda, just his words to your ears. Google is your friend. The fact that you don't even believe these literal quotes from Trump actually happened shows pretty clearly that we are not the ones brainwashed by slanted media.

[hoping2retire35]

The truth is that the hate has always been here.  But Trump has normalized it again.  He has basically said it is ok to hate. 

Yes there are laws in place, but Trump has said that he will do everything in his power to repeal these laws, so many are already not following them.  many feel that all process in the LGBT movement will be lost with trump as president, and that is a fair thought, in my opinion.

People brushing it off as if it always has been there, we cant fix it, there is no point in trying is a large part of the issue.  We need to take a stand for the betterment of the whole human race.

(1) Show me where and how Trump said "It is ok to hate"

and

(2) I'm pretty sure Trump isn't going to be repealing any laws about assault- seeing as that is what frugalnacho was talking about.

1. Watch any of his early rallies.  Where he is saying he will pay the lawyer bills if the beat the shit out of some one who disagrees.  Where he makes fun of the handicapped person, where he grabs women by the pussy... come on why do I have to even explain this.

2. repeal, maybe not, but complete disregard...

"...they let you do this..."
not assault

btw, he wasn't the male that would be in the whitehouse with a string of sexual assault accusations
\


not sure why I am even bothering...

[Jack]

The straw that broke the camels back?  Back to my original point: He literally just got elected and isn't even in office for another 2 1/2 months.  He talks a lot of shit, but nothing is even happening yet.

What do you mean, "nothing is even happening yet?" The bigots' opinions have been vindicated (in their minds) by winning the election. They think they have a majority, and they think that makes it okay to wear their abusiveness on their sleeves in ways they didn't before. That's far from "nothing!"

[dycker1978]

You realize that suicide is always an extreme reaction right.  That people who come to that decision in their lives honestly feel that it cannot possibly get better, no matter what happens.  You understand that right?  This is not something people just od... they think about this and ponder it for many many years some times...

LGBT people have among the highest rates for attempted suicide in North America(41% of LGBT youth attempt suicide before age 20).  This is 22 times the national average.  Now there are always many complex reasons to why someone may decide to take their own life. But societal bullying is the most common reason to those who are in the LGBT community. 

My son get bullied every single day.  Every one, there is not a day that goes by where he doesn't face bullying.  Now my son has a very stable home, and me and his mom will fight for him no matter what, and he know that.  But he still faces depression and anxiety. 

The reason that I am telling you this is because 4/5 or 80% of LGBT youth is not supported by their families.  Of that many get kicked out of their homes etc.  Now if you are not supported at home, bullied every day in public, and then get the blow that the new leader of your country is going to repeal all of the progress that has been made to your freedoms.  And you are already at the end of your rope, yes suicide becomes a very real option.

So step off your high horse.  We all realize that suicide is an extreme option.  But these people feel this is the end of the line for them anyway.  The likely hood that this may or may not happen is not even coming into play here.  These youth are already at the end of their ropes, and this becomes the only option they can imagine.

[Lagom]

This was on another thread. I'm sure you pro-Trump guys will rationalize or dismiss it, but if you have any actual empathy for the oppressed, this is just a mere glimpse into the potential pandora's box he opened:

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/moments/796417517157830656?m=1

I truly hope this is just a spasm of hate and not the start of something broader and more sinister. Either way, you can be damn sure those who stand by in silence are well on the wrong side of history.

[dycker1978]

The truth is that the hate has always been here.  But Trump has normalized it again.  He has basically said it is ok to hate. 

Yes there are laws in place, but Trump has said that he will do everything in his power to repeal these laws, so many are already not following them.  many feel that all process in the LGBT movement will be lost with trump as president, and that is a fair thought, in my opinion.

People brushing it off as if it always has been there, we cant fix it, there is no point in trying is a large part of the issue.  We need to take a stand for the betterment of the whole human race.

(1) Show me where and how Trump said "It is ok to hate"

and

(2) I'm pretty sure Trump isn't going to be repealing any laws about assault- seeing as that is what frugalnacho was talking about.

1. Watch any of his early rallies.  Where he is saying he will pay the lawyer bills if the beat the shit out of some one who disagrees.  Where he makes fun of the handicapped person, where he grabs women by the pussy... come on why do I have to even explain this.

2. repeal, maybe not, but complete disregard...

"...they let you do this..."
not assault

btw, he wasn't the male that would be in the whitehouse with a string of sexual assault accusations
\


not sure why I am even bothering...

I am going to post this https://www.google.ca/search?q=dose&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&gfe_rd=cr&ei=6t0kWIi8B4iN8QeFgLLIBQ#q=donald+trump+going+to+court+for+sexual+assault&safe=off&tbm=nws. 

It is just a Google search so allow me to post some links as well.

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13501364/trump-rape-13-year-old-lawsuit-katie-johnson-allegation
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/11/donald-trump-university-lawsuit
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/donald-trump-faces-hearing-for-trump-university-case.html
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-president-elect-faces-court-date-fraud-case

Now I know that these are all media related, but there must be something right?  Thought so

[frugalnacho]

I never said that Trumps views are ok, nor did I say I can't understand how it's not terrifying to groups that are targets of that hatred.  In fact I said the exact opposite, I can totally understand it, however committing suicide because of it is a completely unreasonable  and extreme over reaction.

Look, you don't get to say that.  You are not that person, you don't understand their situation.  It may look "unreasonable" to you, or an "extreme over reaction" to you.  But you are not walking in their shoes and don't get to say how they feel or how they should or should not react. You don't get to judge their reaction by your own standards and situation, and by your own lack of understanding and empathy.

If you want to carry on with making such statements, you need to qualify them.  Instead of making the bald statement that someone else's actions are unreasonable and extreme, you would do better to acknowledge that there are people, who are American citizens just like you, who are being pushed to extremes you can't fathom because they are being subjected to levels of pain which are outside your experience and understanding.

Well I just did say it. 

I guess it's a completely reasonable reaction to have though.  In fact I guess every single reaction anyone has to anything ever is completely reasonable and no one can pass judgement on any other person because no one can possibly understand what's going on inside any other person's mind.

[dycker1978]

I never said that Trumps views are ok, nor did I say I can't understand how it's not terrifying to groups that are targets of that hatred.  In fact I said the exact opposite, I can totally understand it, however committing suicide because of it is a completely unreasonable  and extreme over reaction.

Look, you don't get to say that.  You are not that person, you don't understand their situation.  It may look "unreasonable" to you, or an "extreme over reaction" to you.  But you are not walking in their shoes and don't get to say how they feel or how they should or should not react. You don't get to judge their reaction by your own standards and situation, and by your own lack of understanding and empathy.

If you want to carry on with making such statements, you need to qualify them.  Instead of making the bald statement that someone else's actions are unreasonable and extreme, you would do better to acknowledge that there are people, who are American citizens just like you, who are being pushed to extremes you can't fathom because they are being subjected to levels of pain which are outside your experience and understanding.

Well I just did say it. 

I guess it's a completely reasonable reaction to have though.  In fact I guess every single reaction anyone has to anything ever is completely reasonable and no one can pass judgement on any other person because no one can possibly understand what's going on inside any other person's mind.

I know you said that tongue in cheek, but it is the truth.  I am sure you have had a bad day, then someone says the wrong thing to you, and you snap a little bit.  Their thought is that asshole, but is that the case?  I doubt it, just a bad day. 

[TexasRunner]

I never said that Trumps views are ok, nor did I say I can't understand how it's not terrifying to groups that are targets of that hatred.  In fact I said the exact opposite, I can totally understand it, however committing suicide because of it is a completely unreasonable  and extreme over reaction.

Look, you don't get to say that.  You are not that person, you don't understand their situation.  It may look "unreasonable" to you, or an "extreme over reaction" to you.  But you are not walking in their shoes and don't get to say how they feel or how they should or should not react. You don't get to judge their reaction by your own standards and situation, and by your own lack of understanding and empathy.

If you want to carry on with making such statements, you need to qualify them.  Instead of making the bald statement that someone else's actions are unreasonable and extreme, you would do better to acknowledge that there are people, who are American citizens just like you, who are being pushed to extremes you can't fathom because they are being subjected to levels of pain which are outside your experience and understanding.

Well I just did say it. 

I guess it's a completely reasonable reaction to have though.  In fact I guess every single reaction anyone has to anything ever is completely reasonable and no one can pass judgement on any other person because no one can possibly understand what's going on inside any other person's mind.

I know you said that tongue in cheek, but it is the truth.  I am sure you have had a bad day, then someone says the wrong thing to you, and you snap a little bit.  Their thought is that asshole, but is that the case?  I doubt it, just a bad day.

So if someone snaps and murders another person, no passing judgement because you "just can't understand whats going on in their head".  No way that murder was "an extreme overreaction"...  /[sarcasm off]

Sheesh, and I'm the one being accused of mental gymnastics.

[acroy]

The truth is that the hate has always been here.  But Trump has normalized it again.  He has basically said it is ok to hate. 

The actual hate and violence I've seen is from the anti-Trumpers.
Heck it's going on now. mini-riots, property damage, calls for violence and assassination on social media.
Why do they always only come out at night? bunch of cockroaches..

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13501364/trump-rape-13-year-old-lawsuit-katie-johnson-allegation
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/11/donald-trump-university-lawsuit
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/donald-trump-faces-hearing-for-trump-university-case.html
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-president-elect-faces-court-date-fraud-case

Now I know that these are all media related, but there must be something right?  Thought so

Lousy sources, proven to be divisive, alarmist, hateful, biased, untrustworthy.

[dycker1978]

I never said that Trumps views are ok, nor did I say I can't understand how it's not terrifying to groups that are targets of that hatred.  In fact I said the exact opposite, I can totally understand it, however committing suicide because of it is a completely unreasonable  and extreme over reaction.

Look, you don't get to say that.  You are not that person, you don't understand their situation.  It may look "unreasonable" to you, or an "extreme over reaction" to you.  But you are not walking in their shoes and don't get to say how they feel or how they should or should not react. You don't get to judge their reaction by your own standards and situation, and by your own lack of understanding and empathy.

If you want to carry on with making such statements, you need to qualify them.  Instead of making the bald statement that someone else's actions are unreasonable and extreme, you would do better to acknowledge that there are people, who are American citizens just like you, who are being pushed to extremes you can't fathom because they are being subjected to levels of pain which are outside your experience and understanding.

Well I just did say it. 

I guess it's a completely reasonable reaction to have though.  In fact I guess every single reaction anyone has to anything ever is completely reasonable and no one can pass judgement on any other person because no one can possibly understand what's going on inside any other person's mind.

I know you said that tongue in cheek, but it is the truth.  I am sure you have had a bad day, then someone says the wrong thing to you, and you snap a little bit.  Their thought is that asshole, but is that the case?  I doubt it, just a bad day.

So if someone snaps and murders another person, no passing judgement because you "just can't understand whats going on in their head".  No way that murder was "an extreme overreaction"...  /[sarcasm off]

Sheesh, and I'm the one being accused of mental gymnastics.

Wow... Just wow...

[frugalnacho]

The straw that broke the camels back?  Back to my original point: He literally just got elected and isn't even in office for another 2 1/2 months.  He talks a lot of shit, but nothing is even happening yet.

What do you mean, "nothing is even happening yet?" The bigots' opinions have been vindicated (in their minds) by winning the election. They think they have a majority, and they think that makes it okay to wear their abusiveness on their sleeves in ways they didn't before. That's far from "nothing!"

I mean that nothing had officially happened yet.  My original response was to this quote:

I am a member of a support based group for transgender teens in North America.  We have seen the lose of numerous youth 16-22(there have been 15 since the election results)  The notes have one thing in common.  That we cannot be ourselves now...

You may argue that adults have caused this, but trump said he would repel the marriage equality law.  The VP said that he was for shock therapy to "fix" the gays... this is an issue.  This is who was voted for

Marriage equality hasn't been repealed, and no one is administering shock therapy to gays.  Nor will they.  I have my doubts either of those things could even possibly happen, once he takes office.  But he isn't even in office yet, he is just president elect.  An LGBT person killing themselves is (in my opinion) a complete over reaction to the situation, and is very premature if it's for the reasons given. 

Someone being the direct victim of a hate crime is a separate issue, and if people are ramping up bigotry and performing hate crimes because they feel vindicated that trump has been elected it is shameful and I feel sorry for their victims.  Those assholes have been here all along though.  I still don't think suicide is the most rational and reasonable reaction though, even if they are currently being victimized by bigoted assholes that some how feel it's ok now that trump is president elect.  I don't think (certainly hope) that this is just a temporary lashing out by those assholes, and won't be tolerated long term. 

[music lover]

Are you willing to admit that Hillary courted BLM racist thugs and people that are in the country illegally?

Contrary to your apparent delusion, BLM isn't racist. And WTF do illegal immigrants have to do with any of this? It's like you're playing bigoted dog-whistle bingo or something.

Bigoted dog whistle? Lol...all you're doing is repeating a Democrat talking point.

BLM does contain plenty of racists...you just won't see the evidence watching mainstream media. As to illegal immigrants...well, first of all, they are NOT immigrants. They are people who are in the US illegally. Try to grasp that simple fact.

Hillary played on the fears that people in the US illegally might be deported and accused Trump of racism for wanting to uphold existing immigration laws. Only brainwashed progressives see this as racism. Everyone else sees it as a country protecting the sanctity of their borders.

[dycker1978]

The truth is that the hate has always been here.  But Trump has normalized it again.  He has basically said it is ok to hate. 

The actual hate and violence I've seen is from the anti-Trumpers.
Heck it's going on now. mini-riots, property damage, calls for violence and assassination on social media.
Why do they always only come out at night? bunch of cockroaches..

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13501364/trump-rape-13-year-old-lawsuit-katie-johnson-allegation
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/11/donald-trump-university-lawsuit
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/donald-trump-faces-hearing-for-trump-university-case.html
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-president-elect-faces-court-date-fraud-case

Now I know that these are all media related, but there must be something right?  Thought so

Lousy sources, proven to be divisive, alarmist, hateful, biased, untrustworthy.

In other words you disagree with them.

The people who are rioting now should be ashamed as well.  If you feel the need to protest that is your right in the USA, but do it peacefully.

[dycker1978]

The truth is that the hate has always been here.  But Trump has normalized it again.  He has basically said it is ok to hate. 

The actual hate and violence I've seen is from the anti-Trumpers.
Heck it's going on now. mini-riots, property damage, calls for violence and assassination on social media.
Why do they always only come out at night? bunch of cockroaches..

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/3/13501364/trump-rape-13-year-old-lawsuit-katie-johnson-allegation
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/11/donald-trump-university-lawsuit
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/11/donald-trump-faces-hearing-for-trump-university-case.html
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/the-president-elect-faces-court-date-fraud-case

Now I know that these are all media related, but there must be something right?  Thought so

Lousy sources, proven to be divisive, alarmist, hateful, biased, untrustworthy.

In other words you disagree with them.

The people who are rioting now should be ashamed as well.  If you feel the need to protest that is your right in the USA, but do it peacefully.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/trump-due-in-court-for-fraud-trial-before-assuming-office/article32785783/

Globe and mail good enough for you?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/campaign-2016-donald-trump-trial-date-set-in-trump-university-lawsuit/

CBS?

[JLee]

The straw that broke the camels back?  Back to my original point: He literally just got elected and isn't even in office for another 2 1/2 months.  He talks a lot of shit, but nothing is even happening yet.

What do you mean, "nothing is even happening yet?" The bigots' opinions have been vindicated (in their minds) by winning the election. They think they have a majority, and they think that makes it okay to wear their abusiveness on their sleeves in ways they didn't before. That's far from "nothing!"

I mean that nothing had officially happened yet.  My original response was to this quote:

I am a member of a support based group for transgender teens in North America.  We have seen the lose of numerous youth 16-22(there have been 15 since the election results)  The notes have one thing in common.  That we cannot be ourselves now...

You may argue that adults have caused this, but trump said he would repel the marriage equality law.  The VP said that he was for shock therapy to "fix" the gays... this is an issue.  This is who was voted for

Marriage equality hasn't been repealed, and no one is administering shock therapy to gays.  Nor will they.  I have my doubts either of those things could even possibly happen, once he takes office.  But he isn't even in office yet, he is just president elect.  An LGBT person killing themselves is (in my opinion) a complete over reaction to the situation, and is very premature if it's for the reasons given. 

Someone being the direct victim of a hate crime is a separate issue, and if people are ramping up bigotry and performing hate crimes because they feel vindicated that trump has been elected it is shameful and I feel sorry for their victims.  Those assholes have been here all along though.  I still don't think suicide is the most rational and reasonable reaction though, even if they are currently being victimized by bigoted assholes that some how feel it's ok now that trump is president elect.  I don't think (certainly hope) that this is just a temporary lashing out by those assholes, and won't be tolerated long term.

Suicide in general is not a rational and reasonable reaction. Your apparent utter void of empathy isn't making you look very human, though.  Whether it is the case or not, you are giving the impression that their concerns are invalid and premature and they're silly for committing suicide.

Well, they're gone now, while you brush off their concerns as ridiculous.

[acroy]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/trump-due-in-court-for-fraud-trial-before-assuming-office/article32785783/

Globe and mail good enough for you?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/campaign-2016-donald-trump-trial-date-set-in-trump-university-lawsuit/

CBS?

accusation of fraud =/ hate

In other words you disagree with them.

No. Very different. C'mon, be logical.

[music lover]

Ever notice that it's always the left that riot in the street when they don't get their way?

[frugalnacho]

The straw that broke the camels back?  Back to my original point: He literally just got elected and isn't even in office for another 2 1/2 months.  He talks a lot of shit, but nothing is even happening yet.

What do you mean, "nothing is even happening yet?" The bigots' opinions have been vindicated (in their minds) by winning the election. They think they have a majority, and they think that makes it okay to wear their abusiveness on their sleeves in ways they didn't before. That's far from "nothing!"

I mean that nothing had officially happened yet.  My original response was to this quote:

I am a member of a support based group for transgender teens in North America.  We have seen the lose of numerous youth 16-22(there have been 15 since the election results)  The notes have one thing in common.  That we cannot be ourselves now...

You may argue that adults have caused this, but trump said he would repel the marriage equality law.  The VP said that he was for shock therapy to "fix" the gays... this is an issue.  This is who was voted for

Marriage equality hasn't been repealed, and no one is administering shock therapy to gays.  Nor will they.  I have my doubts either of those things could even possibly happen, once he takes office.  But he isn't even in office yet, he is just president elect.  An LGBT person killing themselves is (in my opinion) a complete over reaction to the situation, and is very premature if it's for the reasons given. 

Someone being the direct victim of a hate crime is a separate issue, and if people are ramping up bigotry and performing hate crimes because they feel vindicated that trump has been elected it is shameful and I feel sorry for their victims.  Those assholes have been here all along though.  I still don't think suicide is the most rational and reasonable reaction though, even if they are currently being victimized by bigoted assholes that some how feel it's ok now that trump is president elect.  I don't think (certainly hope) that this is just a temporary lashing out by those assholes, and won't be tolerated long term.

Suicide in general is not a rational and reasonable reaction. Your apparent utter void of empathy isn't making you look very human, though.  Whether it is the case or not, you are giving the impression that their concerns are invalid and premature and they're silly for committing suicide.

Well, they're gone now, while you brush off their concerns as ridiculous.

I don't understand how i'm being void of empathy. I don't understand why I can't have the opinion that their concerns are invalid/premature either.  Maybe I should kill myself because some people on the internet disagree with me? Or maybe because my local sports team lost last night? Are those valid reasons be default because you'd be an inhuman monster to pass judgement that maybe it was an over reaction?

This thread has gotten way off topic and getting hard to keep up with all the replies.

[Lagom]

Sure, we're the ones doing mental gymnastics... You Trump supports are all doing a bang-up job avoiding quite a few things that have been said that have any chance of causing icky cognitive dissonance and/or that can't be "debunked" through sloppy generalities, ignorance stated as fact, or whopping red herrings.

To repeat, for the purpose of our current discussion, you don't have to even admit Trump himself is a racist. I'll even let you claim he will be a "great" president. That doesn't chance some simple fundamental facts about how he has very obviously influenced certain less savory segments of the population. And you don't even have the decency to say something like "yes, that is a regrettable side-effect of his campaign, but I'm confident he will do good in the long run."

[JLee]

The straw that broke the camels back?  Back to my original point: He literally just got elected and isn't even in office for another 2 1/2 months.  He talks a lot of shit, but nothing is even happening yet.

What do you mean, "nothing is even happening yet?" The bigots' opinions have been vindicated (in their minds) by winning the election. They think they have a majority, and they think that makes it okay to wear their abusiveness on their sleeves in ways they didn't before. That's far from "nothing!"

I mean that nothing had officially happened yet.  My original response was to this quote:

I am a member of a support based group for transgender teens in North America.  We have seen the lose of numerous youth 16-22(there have been 15 since the election results)  The notes have one thing in common.  That we cannot be ourselves now...

You may argue that adults have caused this, but trump said he would repel the marriage equality law.  The VP said that he was for shock therapy to "fix" the gays... this is an issue.  This is who was voted for

Marriage equality hasn't been repealed, and no one is administering shock therapy to gays.  Nor will they.  I have my doubts either of those things could even possibly happen, once he takes office.  But he isn't even in office yet, he is just president elect.  An LGBT person killing themselves is (in my opinion) a complete over reaction to the situation, and is very premature if it's for the reasons given. 

Someone being the direct victim of a hate crime is a separate issue, and if people are ramping up bigotry and performing hate crimes because they feel vindicated that trump has been elected it is shameful and I feel sorry for their victims.  Those assholes have been here all along though.  I still don't think suicide is the most rational and reasonable reaction though, even if they are currently being victimized by bigoted assholes that some how feel it's ok now that trump is president elect.  I don't think (certainly hope) that this is just a temporary lashing out by those assholes, and won't be tolerated long term.

Suicide in general is not a rational and reasonable reaction. Your apparent utter void of empathy isn't making you look very human, though.  Whether it is the case or not, you are giving the impression that their concerns are invalid and premature and they're silly for committing suicide.

Well, they're gone now, while you brush off their concerns as ridiculous.

I don't understand how i'm being void of empathy. I don't understand why I can't have the opinion that their concerns are invalid/premature either.  Maybe I should kill myself because some people on the internet disagree with me? Or maybe because my local sports team lost last night? Are those valid reasons be default because you'd be an inhuman monster to pass judgement that maybe it was an over reaction?

This thread has gotten way off topic and getting hard to keep up with all the replies.

You may have any opinion you wish.  I'm just pointing out to you how you appear.

However, as you just equated LGBT oppression, hatred, harassment, and unequal rights with your local sports team losing a game, I think any productive discussion is simply impossible. You don't have a clue.

[frugalnacho]

Sure, we're the ones doing mental gymnastics... You Trump supports are all doing a bang-up job avoiding quite a few things that have been said that have any chance of causing icky cognitive dissonance and/or that can't be "debunked" through sloppy generalities, ignorance stated as fact, or whopping red herrings.

To repeat, for the purpose of our current discussion, you don't have to even admit Trump himself is a racist. I'll even let you claim he will be a "great" president. That doesn't chance some simple fundamental facts about how he has very obviously influenced certain less savory segments of the population. And you don't even have the decency to say something like "yes, that is a regrettable side-effect of his campaign, but I'm confident he will do good in the long run."

Are you under the impression I am pro trump?

You may have any opinion you wish.  I'm just pointing out to you how you appear.

However, as you just equated LGBT oppression, hatred, harassment, and unequal rights with your local sports team losing a game, I think any productive discussion is simply impossible. You don't have a clue.

You didn't really answer me.  I thought my extreme satirical example was obvious.  Just for the record that has actually happened before.  Some people take their sports very seriously.  Clearly we can simply dismiss them as over reacting though.

[Jack]

BLM does contain plenty of racists...

By the nature of the problem, every group trying to address racial issues is going to contain some racists. There is no evidence whatsoever that BLM contains even an average proportion of them, let alone "plenty," and even less that Clinton was courting specifically the "racist thugs" in BLM rather than aligning herself with BLM in general.

As to illegal immigrants...well, first of all, they are NOT immigrants. They are people who are in the US illegally. Try to grasp that simple fact.

"People who are in the US illegally" have committed a moral offense orders of magnitude less bad than people who commit bigotry (at least in the opinion of anyone who isn't a bigot himself). And you're the one who tried to equate Hillary courting immigrants with Trump courting bigots, as if they were somehow equivalent!

Oh, by the way: try to grasp the fact that "immigrant" as a definition relates to the purpose for which the people are here (i.e., that they intend to stay permanently and aren't merely on vacation or a business trip or something). It has nothing to do with whether they've followed the rules or not. Illegal immigrants are still immigrants.

What do you mean, "nothing is even happening yet?" The bigots' opinions have been vindicated (in their minds) by winning the election. They think they have a majority, and they think that makes it okay to wear their abusiveness on their sleeves in ways they didn't before. That's far from "nothing!"

I mean that nothing had officially happened yet.  My original response was to this quote:

I am a member of a support based group for transgender teens in North America.  We have seen the lose of numerous youth 16-22(there have been 15 since the election results)  The notes have one thing in common.  That we cannot be ourselves now...

You may argue that adults have caused this, but trump said he would repel the marriage equality law.  The VP said that he was for shock therapy to "fix" the gays... this is an issue.  This is who was voted for

Marriage equality hasn't been repealed, and no one is administering shock therapy to gays.  Nor will they.  I have my doubts either of those things could even possibly happen, once he takes office.  But he isn't even in office yet, he is just president elect.  An LGBT person killing themselves is (in my opinion) a complete over reaction to the situation, and is very premature if it's for the reasons given. 

I understand the point you're trying to make. However, the real, "official" thing that has happened is that the probability of any of those policies passing has just gone from "remote" to "likely." That's not a hypothetical change.

[Lagom]

Are you under the impression I am pro trump?

Not necessarily in your case, although (correct me if I'm wrong) you still seem unwilling to acknowledge that his campaign was based in part on stoking bigotry among his base or that having a presidential candidate do such things with no consequences directly empowers an increase in related public rhetoric and hate-crimes.

The posters who clearly are pro-Trump deny/ignore this, I presume, because they either sympathize with those bigoted views, think race-baiting/xenophobia/homophobia is no big deal, or possibly just refuse to admit any flaw in their chosen one (and/or that they would vote for such a person) and thus lie to themselves about it.

[MDM]

Unfortunately, crying wolf like the person who made up a story about two men attacking her and stealing her wallet and hijab on Wednesday doesn't help anyone. 

I believe the LGBT kids who committed suicide felt real pain.  I believe that, if those kids had a better appreciation of the very low likelihood that Trump/Pence will bring to fruition any of the extreme things Trump/Pence have been accused of planning to implement, said kids would not have felt as much pain.

...his campaign was based in part on stoking bigotry among his base...

Of course it was.  So was Clinton's.  Attacking LGBT people and police are both deplorable, but the "win at all costs" philosophy of both major parties leads to those results.

[TexasRunner]

Are you under the impression I am pro trump?

Not necessarily in your case, although (correct me if I'm wrong) you still seem unwilling to acknowledge that his campaign was based in part on stoking bigotry among his base or that having a presidential candidate do such things with no consequences directly empowers an increase in related public rhetoric and hate-crimes.

The posters who clearly are pro-Trump deny/ignore this, I presume, because they either sympathize with those bigoted views, think race-baiting/xenophobia/homophobia is no big deal, or possibly just refuse to admit any flaw in their chosen one (and/or that they would vote for such a person) and thus lie to themselves about it.

Or we recognize the extreme stretching that comes from the left in taking what he said and turning it into something completely different.  As such, I wanted him to (but I know he wont) go re-watch the exact things Trump said or did that "said its ok to hate".  There aren't any.  It is all fabricated by cognitive dissonance.  Because of this, it doesn't matter that Trump may be one of the best things that happens to the socially liberal minded segment of the US because they wont see or listem to what he is actually saying/doing.

I'll give you an example from this forum:

Point of order, I'm no Trump supporter, but most of his policies that people get their panties in a wad over are not about CITIZENS, they're targeted at immigrants (Mexican and Muslim). 

I also think it used to be okay to be against ILLEGAL immigration and be for vetting potential immigrants without being racist up until anti-Trumpers decided to make sure everyone felt it was default racist.

Except that he vilifies plenty of citizens - remember the judge of Mexican heritage?  OR:

1. “President Obama is the least transparent president in the history of this country.”

I refuse to believe the FBI did a thorough background check the FBI did on this n-gger. He is too dark to be my president.

2. “I’m very honored to have gotten him to release his long form birth certificate, or whatever it may be.”

You see how much power I have? i got the only n-gger president to do what I told him to.

3. “I have a deal for the president. A deal that I don’t believe he can refuse.”

Naturally, I believe I’m mentally superior you n-ggers. Hopefully, you won’t realize I’m offering one of the shittiest deals in the history of business and dealing.

4. “If Barack Obama opens up and gives his college records and application, and if he gives his passport applications and records, I will give to a charity of his choice–Inner City Children in Chicago, the American Cancer Society, AIDS research, anything he wants–immediately a check for $5 million.”

If that boy shows me his freedom papers, I’ll an amount of money I wipe my ass with to a little negro organization you choose to champion. If you break it down, Donald Trump’s $5 million equals $91 of poor people money.

[Lagom]

Ah yes, that strategy. Claim the "other side" does the same thing by drawing false parallels. Of course, even if these were in fact reasonable comparisons, the principled thing to do is still to admit that your candidate has behaved in a dangerous fashion that is demonstrably stoking hatred and potentially (but hopefully not) could lead us down a very ugly road.

[TexasRunner]

Ah yes, the other strategy. Claim the "other side" does the same thing by drawing false parallels. Of course, even if these were in fact reasonable comparisons, the principled thing to do is still admit that your candidate has behaved in a dangerous fashion that is already stoking hatred and potentially (but hopefully not) could lead us down a very ugly road.

Nope. Nope. Nope, nopitty nope and nope.  I am saying the other side has taken his statements out of context (action A) not that his statements are as disparaging as the actions of the other side (which would be Action B).  It is not 'the other', separate actions means you are not actually recognizing my argument.

(IE, 'the other' is that group A did 'Action A' so when group B does 'Action A' it is acceptable.  I am stating the actions are different). 

[Lagom]

Got it. I've highlighted the relevant portion of my above post for you:

The posters who clearly are pro-Trump deny/ignore this, I presume, because they either sympathize with those bigoted views, think race-baiting/xenophobia/homophobia is no big deal, or possibly just refuse to admit any flaw in their chosen one (and/or that they would vote for such a person) and thus lie to themselves about it.

Edit - And before you try to disagree with that, go back through the last couple pages of the thread and carefully note which posts asked questions or provided information that you completely ignored. Cognitive dissonance is certainly uncomfortable, but sometimes we have to face our demons.

[TexasRunner]

I'll certainly admit that he's lewd and crass.  And definitely misogynistic to the extent that most (dare I saw all) men are. But insofar as labeling him a racist its your cognitive dissonance that painted that picture.  Trump won 8% of the black vote.  If he is nearly as racist as he has been painted, why did 1.4 million black voters pick him?...

Edit - And before you try to disagree with that, go back through the last couple pages of the thread and carefully note which posts asked questions or provided information that you completely ignored. Cognitive dissonance is certainly uncomfortable, but sometimes we have to face our demons.

And can you point out what, exactly, I'm ignoring?

My point is, the image of Trump that has been painted by the media and the destructive campaigning by both sides has resulted in a bitter election where we have riots and people polling for the electoral college to abandon our government's structure.  There is a window, right now, for the democratic party to step out of the echo chamber and find common ground that will advance the nation as a whole- but it only happens if people realize Trump isn't the Hilteresque monster that he is painted as. 

Just out of curiosity, did you watch his victory speech?  It might surprise you.


Edit: apparently I received a warning for the text in red above.  Sorry for offending anyone with my opinion and view of reality.  Please feel free to directly point it out next time.  Funny that my warning level was increased, but the mod didn't feel the need to modify or clarify this post in any manner.  Whatever.

[bacchi]

Nope. Nope. Nope, nopitty nope and nope.  I am saying the other side has taken his statements out of context (action A) not that his statements are as disparaging as the actions of the other side (which would be Action B). 

So when Trump stated that Mexico is sending us "not the right people" and "people with lots of problems," what do you think he meant? "They're rapists," he claimed. How is that taken of context? He did walk it back a bit with an, "And some, I assume, are good people" but the overall message is not stoking hatred towards immigrants?

I have some framers working on a garage in my backyard. Should I be worried about them because they're most likely druggies and rapists? Or maybe these guys, while "not the right people," are the "some" who are "good people?"

[dragoncar]

Or we recognize the extreme stretching that comes from the left in taking what he said and turning it into something completely different.  As such, I wanted him to (but I know he wont) go re-watch the exact things Trump said or did that "said its ok to hate".  There aren't any.  It is all fabricated by cognitive dissonance.  Because of this, it doesn't matter that Trump may be one of the best things that happens to the socially liberal minded segment of the US because they wont see or listem to what he is actually saying/doing.

I have no idea if Trump is actually a racist, and to my knowledge he's always been good about maintaining plausible deniability in all of his statements.  But he is definitely cultivating xenophobia and hate.  He would constantly throw out the shape of a racist idea and then backpedal, reeling the hook in:

Lets ban muslims from entering the country, you know that's not very different from the Japanese internment camps, oh I don't like the idea of internment camps but can't say for sure either way, but we definitely have to do something, like maybe a Muslim database, well maybe I won't have a Muslim database after all.

or:

Oh, my supporters beat up an (ethnic) homeless man?  That might be a shame, but either way at least they are very passionate!  Oh, a black protester got beat up at my rally?  Maybe he should have been beat up, but I wouldn't really know the details.

I get it.  Trump is a super intellectual and therefore cannot say very much for sure because of course everything depends heavily on the exact circumstances.  But any reasonable politician NOT courting the racist demographic would definitively come out against these actions, and any future violence. 

Trump never outright said "it's OK to hate, " he demonstrated that it's ok to hate by condoning the hate.

Think what you want of Clinton (I sure do), but when her supporters attacked Trump supporters, she immediately denounced it.  Obviously, there are assholes in all parties, and she may be insincere, but she did what she could to stop violence.  The same cannot be said of Trump.

[Apples]

A coworker's high school children were told today to start packing their bags, they're going to be deported come January.  By their classmates at a fairly selective school.  Two boys even offered to tell the police their address so when Trump started rounding people up they could find them faster.  The children are third generation Americans.  This is harassment, intimidation, and threats that are new and in the open and directly related to the election of Trump.  Before yesterday, the worst thing that happened is everyone assumed they spoke Spanish, and some people assumed they didn't speak much English.  They are fluent.

[Lagom]

Just out of curiosity, did you watch his victory speech?  It might surprise you.

Everyone knows what he said in his victory speech. It was all over the news, even if I hadn't watched it. I was glad he tried to be presidential for once, but that doesn't change anything about the damage that now needs to be undone. This persecution complex among his supporters is really something else. Look, I get it. You get a lot of hate thrown your way by liberals who really don't bother to to think outside of their usual box. If it helps bring perspective, I probably would have voted for Kaisch, or possibly for Romney if he had run again. No way on Ted Cruz, and #neverTrump for reasons that far transcend any liberal lean I might have.

Clearly we all need to collaborate if we want to move forward productively, but as already been pointed out ad naseum, we know Republicans  in congress are vehemently opposed to reaching across the aisle and the incoming administration appears at least as unwilling to try. One need only read through the info on probable cabinet members to see the picture there.

Regardless, none of that invalidates the already demonstrable increase in blatant bigotry across the country since Trump started intentionally stoking those fires. You can call it a tactic and claim he won't actually enact policy based on that tactic all you want, but at least admit that this is not just the same as it ever was. People like you need to do this if any sort of collaborative healing is actually going to happen. And Trumpites need to stop comparing BLM or Planned Parenthood to the KKK or neo-nazi groups if you want to be taken seriously that you actually want to work together to heal our social wounds.

[TexasRunner]

I have no idea if Trump is actually a racist, and to my knowledge he's always been good about maintaining plausible deniability in all of his statements.  But he is definitely cultivating xenophobia and hate.  He would constantly throw out the shape of a racist idea and then backpedal, reeling the hook in:

Lets ban muslims from entering the country, you know that's not very different from the Japanese internment camps, oh I don't like the idea of internment camps but can't say for sure either way, but we definitely have to do something, like maybe a Muslim database, well maybe I won't have a Muslim database after all.

Be sure to let me know when Islam becomes a race.  In the meanwhile, I'll continue to support the idea that we need to ban or postpone immigration from a geopolitical area that has a faction with "Death to America" on its official flag.  (Sources because I don't like being in a bubble: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_America as well as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthis and: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/who-are-yemen-s-houthis-what-do-they-want-n665636)

or:

Oh, my supporters beat up an (ethnic) homeless man?  That might be a shame, but either way at least they are very passionate!  Oh, a black protester got beat up at my rally?  Maybe he should have been beat up, but I wouldn't really know the details.

I actually don't know of these two quotes. Do you have a video link to them?...

I get it.  Trump is a super intellectual and therefore cannot say very much for sure because of course everything depends heavily on the exact circumstances.  But any reasonable politician NOT courting the racist demographic would definitively come out against these actions, and any future violence. 

Trump never outright said "it's OK to hate, " he demonstrated that it's ok to hate by condoning the hate.

Think what you want of Clinton (I sure do), but when her supporters attacked Trump supporters, she immediately denounced it.  Obviously, there are assholes in all parties, and she may be insincere, but she did what she could to stop violence.  The same cannot be said of Trump.

And, FYI, the party that is encouraging violence isn't the party that one.  (DNC strongly encouraged violence: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/21/us/politics/video-dnc-trump-rallies.html

[dragoncar]

I have no idea if Trump is actually a racist, and to my knowledge he's always been good about maintaining plausible deniability in all of his statements.  But he is definitely cultivating xenophobia and hate.  He would constantly throw out the shape of a racist idea and then backpedal, reeling the hook in:

Lets ban muslims from entering the country, you know that's not very different from the Japanese internment camps, oh I don't like the idea of internment camps but can't say for sure either way, but we definitely have to do something, like maybe a Muslim database, well maybe I won't have a Muslim database after all.

Be sure to let me know when Islam becomes a race.  In the meanwhile, I'll continue to support the idea that we need to ban or postpone immigration from a geopolitical area that has a faction with "Death to America" on its official flag.  (Sources because I don't like being in a bubble: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_America as well as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthis and: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/who-are-yemen-s-houthis-what-do-they-want-n665636)

Uh, I didn't say Islam was a race.  I said Trump courts xenophobia.  Islam is certainly an outsider religion.  But hey, be sure to let me know when Islam becomes a geopolitical region.  It ain't.  I'm sure there are plenty of British, German, and U.S. born Muslims who are being harassed (and remember, the majority of "Japanese" internees were U.S. citizens).

or:

Oh, my supporters beat up an (ethnic) homeless man?  That might be a shame, but either way at least they are very passionate!  Oh, a black protester got beat up at my rally?  Maybe he should have been beat up, but I wouldn't really know the details.

I actually don't know of these two quotes. Do you have a video link to them?...

Homeless man:  Here's an article where he said "I haven’t heard about that ... It would be a shame, but I haven’t heard about that. I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate. I will say that, and everybody here has reported it.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/08/21/trump-says-fans-are-very-passionate-after-hearing-one-of-them-allegedly-assaulted-hispanic-man/

Four days later, he did tweet: "Boston incident is terrible. We need energy and passion, but we must treat each other with respect. I would never condone violence."

So that's good for him, but it certainly sends a mixed message at first, and it fits my impression of his strategy to hit his most zealous followers with a message they can internalize and later walk it back.

Black protester:  Here's an article with video of the "roughing up" and later trump saying "maybe he should have been roughed up"
 http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2015/11/22/donald-trump-protester-roughed-up-fox-and-friends-alabama-sot.cnn

I personally think protesting a rally is kinda a dick move, but I still don't think non-violent protesters should be roughed up and I believe the ambiguity of Trump's message is calculated to tacitly approve while at the same technically not an endorsement.

I get it.  Trump is a super intellectual and therefore cannot say very much for sure because of course everything depends heavily on the exact circumstances.  But any reasonable politician NOT courting the racist demographic would definitively come out against these actions, and any future violence. 

Trump never outright said "it's OK to hate, " he demonstrated that it's ok to hate by condoning the hate.

Think what you want of Clinton (I sure do), but when her supporters attacked Trump supporters, she immediately denounced it.  Obviously, there are assholes in all parties, and she may be insincere, but she did what she could to stop violence.  The same cannot be said of Trump.

And, FYI, the party that is encouraging violence isn't the party that one.  (DNC strongly encouraged violence: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/21/us/politics/video-dnc-trump-rallies.html

If your argument is that Clinton's supporters tried to antagonize Trump supporters, well I guess it worked.  I don't have much love for Clinton, and I personally hope Trump turns out to be a good president, but "she poked me first" isn't really a valid excuse for the results of his campaign.

[TexasRunner]

I have no idea if Trump is actually a racist, and to my knowledge he's always been good about maintaining plausible deniability in all of his statements.  But he is definitely cultivating xenophobia and hate.  He would constantly throw out the shape of a racist idea and then backpedal, reeling the hook in:

Lets ban muslims from entering the country, you know that's not very different from the Japanese internment camps, oh I don't like the idea of internment camps but can't say for sure either way, but we definitely have to do something, like maybe a Muslim database, well maybe I won't have a Muslim database after all.

Be sure to let me know when Islam becomes a race.  In the meanwhile, I'll continue to support the idea that we need to ban or postpone immigration from a geopolitical area that has a faction with "Death to America" on its official flag.  (Sources because I don't like being in a bubble: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_America as well as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houthis and: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/who-are-yemen-s-houthis-what-do-they-want-n665636)

Uh, I didn't say Islam was a race.  I said Trump courts xenophobia.  Islam is certainly an outsider religion.  But hey, be sure to let me know when Islam becomes a geopolitical region.  It ain't.  I'm sure there are plenty of British, German, and U.S. born Muslims who are being harassed (and remember, the majority of "Japanese" internees were U.S. citizens).

And Trump actually said he was for a ban on immigration of refugees and persons from majority-Muslim countries.  Not actually a religious requirement.  It is a painful and sad condition but then again if we stayed out then maybe it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem now (yes, I recognize that was/is a bipartisan problem).

or:

Oh, my supporters beat up an (ethnic) homeless man?  That might be a shame, but either way at least they are very passionate!  Oh, a black protester got beat up at my rally?  Maybe he should have been beat up, but I wouldn't really know the details.

I actually don't know of these two quotes. Do you have a video link to them?...

Homeless man:  Here's an article where he said "I haven’t heard about that ... It would be a shame, but I haven’t heard about that. I will say that people who are following me are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate. I will say that, and everybody here has reported it.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/08/21/trump-says-fans-are-very-passionate-after-hearing-one-of-them-allegedly-assaulted-hispanic-man/

Four days later, he did tweet: "Boston incident is terrible. We need energy and passion, but we must treat each other with respect. I would never condone violence."

So that's good for him, but it certainly sends a mixed message at first, and it fits my impression of his strategy to hit his most zealous followers with a message they can internalize and later walk it back.

Are you kidding me?  He literally said "that would be a shame but I haven't heard about it"...  Then he tried to steer the conversation by turning to something more positive.  That isn't his failure but rather the media taking a 'nothing' event and making something out of it.  If you want a similar example, remember the outcry that Trump didn't denounce the KKK "quick enough" when he was on a talk show.

Black protester:  Here's an article with video of the "roughing up" and later trump saying "maybe he should have been roughed up"
 http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2015/11/22/donald-trump-protester-roughed-up-fox-and-friends-alabama-sot.cnn

I personally think protesting a rally is kinda a dick move, but I still don't think non-violent protesters should be roughed up and I believe the ambiguity of Trump's message is calculated to tacitly approve while at the same technically not an endorsement.

And what you see as a stamp of approval, I see as the nominee not wanting to alienate his own supporters.  What you said ("I personally think protesting a rally is kinda a dick move") is something I see as the equivalent of Trump saying "maybe he should have been roughed up".  It is the same sentiment-  plus you gotta remember that the Drumf is from New York, viewing him in that context is important.

I get it.  Trump is a super intellectual and therefore cannot say very much for sure because of course everything depends heavily on the exact circumstances.  But any reasonable politician NOT courting the racist demographic would definitively come out against these actions, and any future violence. 

Trump never outright said "it's OK to hate, " he demonstrated that it's ok to hate by condoning the hate.

Think what you want of Clinton (I sure do), but when her supporters attacked Trump supporters, she immediately denounced it.  Obviously, there are assholes in all parties, and she may be insincere, but she did what she could to stop violence.  The same cannot be said of Trump.

And, FYI, the party that is encouraging violence isn't the party that one.  (DNC strongly encouraged violence: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/21/us/politics/video-dnc-trump-rallies.html

If your argument is that Clinton's supporters tried to antagonize Trump supporters, well I guess it worked.  I don't have much love for Clinton, and I personally hope Trump turns out to be a good president, but "she poked me first" isn't really a valid excuse for the results of his campaign.

I completely agree!  But as you even noted above, I don't see him "not denouncing" violence based on the quotes.  I do see cognitive dissonance and the media skewing things into something they are not.

[Metric Mouse]

Unfortunately, crying wolf like the person who made up a story about two men attacking her and stealing her wallet and hijab on Wednesday doesn't help anyone. 

I believe the LGBT kids who committed suicide felt real pain.  I believe that, if those kids had a better appreciation of the very low likelihood that Trump/Pence will bring to fruition any of the extreme things Trump/Pence have been accused of planning to implement, said kids would not have felt as much pain.

...his campaign was based in part on stoking bigotry among his base...

Of course it was.  So was Clinton's.  Attacking LGBT people and police are both deplorable, but the "win at all costs" philosophy of both major parties leads to those results.

Thank you for this (yet again) well-reasoned post MDM. Instead of stoking fear and blasting the horrors that could (but largely most likely won't) happen, perhaps supporters of LGBT supporters should step out of their bubble and help concerned citizens find positive action and understanding of the low likelihood of drastic changes to their daily lives in the near future. 

Trump won. He's the president, and his party have majorities in both the Senate and the HOR. One half of the country had better step out of their bubble and start finding some fucking common ground with the other half of the country that has felt its been ignored and marginalized for the better part of a decade or the self-fulfilling prophecy will come to pass and no progress will be had with President Trump, either.

I'll certainly admit that he's lewd and crass.  And definitely misogynistic to the extent that most (dare I saw all) men are.  But insofar as labeling him a racist its your cognitive dissonance that painted that picture.  Trump won 8% of the black vote.  If he is nearly as racist as he has been painted, why did 1.4 million black voters pick him?...

Edit - And before you try to disagree with that, go back through the last couple pages of the thread and carefully note which posts asked questions or provided information that you completely ignored. Cognitive dissonance is certainly uncomfortable, but sometimes we have to face our demons.

And can you point out what, exactly, I'm ignoring?

My point is, the image of Trump that has been painted by the media and the destructive campaigning by both sides has resulted in a bitter election where we have riots and people polling for the electoral college to abandon our government's structure.  There is a window, right now, for the democratic party to step out of the echo chamber and find common ground that will advance the nation as a whole- but it only happens if people realize Trump isn't the Hilteresque monster that he is painted as. 

Just out of curiosity, did you watch his victory speech?  It might surprise you.

  One would think that with so much evidence of Trump's calling for violence and hate and racisim, there would be more links and videos of him saying these things directly...

Just out of curiosity, did you watch his victory speech?  It might surprise you.

Everyone knows what he said in his victory speech. It was all over the news, even if I hadn't watched it. I was glad he tried to be presidential for once, but that doesn't change anything about the damage that now needs to be undone......

Clearly we all need to collaborate if we want to move forward productively, but as already been pointed out ad naseum, we know Republicans  in congress are vehemently opposed to reaching across the aisle and the incoming administration appears at least as unwilling to try. One need only read through the info on probable cabinet members to see the picture there.

And the bubble stays in tact, safely contained in the echo chamber of similar opinions and sound bites taken protectively out of context.

[JLee]

One would think that with so much evidence of Trump's calling for violence and hate and racisim, there would be more links and videos of him saying these things directly...

http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#YESzSDUpziqb

Complete with video.

[TexasRunner]

One would think that with so much evidence of Trump's calling for violence and hate and racisim, there would be more links and videos of him saying these things directly...

http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#YESzSDUpziqb

Complete with video.

Five quotes taken out of context and turned into sound bites.  Great reporting...  :rolleyes:

[former player]

One would think that with so much evidence of Trump's calling for violence and hate and racisim, there would be more links and videos of him saying these things directly...

http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#YESzSDUpziqb

Complete with video.

Five quotes taken out of context and turned into sound bites.  Great reporting...  :rolleyes:

Can you explain how the quotes were taken "out of context"?  The context of election speeches at a podium is clear.  The events leading up to the quotes are explained.  What about those quotes is unexplained?

[JLee]

One would think that with so much evidence of Trump's calling for violence and hate and racisim, there would be more links and videos of him saying these things directly...

http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#YESzSDUpziqb

Complete with video.

Five quotes taken out of context and turned into sound bites.  Great reporting...  :rolleyes:

Can you explain how the quotes were taken "out of context"?  The context of election speeches at a podium is clear.  The events leading up to the quotes are explained.  What about those quotes is unexplained?

Clearly it doesn't fit the narrative, therefore the facts are invalid.

[TexasRunner]

One would think that with so much evidence of Trump's calling for violence and hate and racisim, there would be more links and videos of him saying these things directly...

http://mashable.com/2016/03/12/trump-rally-incite-violence/#YESzSDUpziqb

Complete with video.

Five quotes taken out of context and turned into sound bites.  Great reporting...  :rolleyes:

Can you explain how the quotes were taken "out of context"?  The context of election speeches at a podium is clear.  The events leading up to the quotes are explained.  What about those quotes is unexplained?

How about the 30-40 seconds before and after those clips that puts it in the context of jokes (albeit probably inappropriate) or tough New York guy talk.  If you miss the framing you don't see the picture as it was intended.

[DavidAnnArbor]

Donald Trump is facing a federal fraud trial for Trump University on Nov. 28th. Incredible how people voted for this guy.