Author Topic: The Corruption of the Clintons  (Read 10252 times)

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2016, 08:04:38 AM »
Back on topic:

Is there anyone here who would claim the Clintons are incorrupt?

If so, can you do it with a straight face?

Corrupt is a completely subjective term. Have Clintons been in a few sticky situations over 26 years with intense media scrutiny? Sure. Who hasn't, with their level of exposure? If by corrupt, you mean that person has completed illegal acts that they should be prosecuted for, then, no, I do not believe they are corrupt.

If you look at the corrupt scale between Clintons and Trump, I think the Clintons are comparatively angels. If you look at the lie scale, same thing. Just look at all the fact checking over the previous week. Trump is one big fat walking lie.

Just today, news has come out that Trump illegally did business in Cuba during the embargo: http://www.newsweek.com/2016/10/14/donald-trump-cuban-embargo-castro-violated-florida-504059.html

And it seems like there's at least one similar Trump expose each week now, that the Clintons haven't even come close to matching over 26 years.

If you're voting for Trump b/c you feel Clintons are corrupt, I think you're horribly misguided. It's a foolish narrative.

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2016, 08:06:40 AM »
The Clintons are surely corrupt.  I can admit it and still vote for HRC.

If corruption were measured on an exponential scale like the Richter scale, I'd put their corruption level at about a 6/10.  I put Trump's corruption level at a 9.5.  I think the Clintons are ambitious and want power and money.  I also think they have a sense of social responsibility and public service.  Those things are not mutually incompatible.  I can actually point to specific ways the HRC has helped my family concretely.  Would I like it better if she were pure as the driven snow?  Yes, but that isn't the reality.

Trump does everything in his life for his own gain, full stop.  His drive to win the presidency isn't to help people.  It's to inflate his own ego and line his pockets.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is just falling for his con job. 

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2016, 08:14:11 AM »
Why does Trump's trustworthiness have any bearing on Clinton's?

Because our current system makes it an either or calculation.  Johnson and Stein are not going to win, so you get to pick between Clinton and Trump. 

Also, most people making claims about Clinton's lack of trustworthiness or corruption do not see those same issue as an impediment to voting for Trump.

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2016, 08:22:10 AM »


Trump does everything in his life for his own gain, full stop.  His drive to win the presidency isn't to help people.  It's to inflate his own ego and line his pockets.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is just falling for his con job.

Agree Trump is running for his ego, but how does winning (or even running) help line his pockets?  His reputation and brand have been harmed by running.

Gin1984

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2016, 08:22:36 AM »


Trump does everything in his life for his own gain, full stop.  His drive to win the presidency isn't to help people.  It's to inflate his own ego and line his pockets.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is just falling for his con job.

Agree Trump is running for his ego, but how does winning (or even running) help line his pockets?  His reputation and brand have been harmed by running.
How?

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2016, 08:25:35 AM »


Trump does everything in his life for his own gain, full stop.  His drive to win the presidency isn't to help people.  It's to inflate his own ego and line his pockets.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is just falling for his con job.

Agree Trump is running for his ego, but how does winning (or even running) help line his pockets?  His reputation and brand have been harmed by running.
How?

Among other things he's been labeled racist woman hater.  Whether that's true or not, it doesn't help branding.

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2016, 08:29:52 AM »


Trump does everything in his life for his own gain, full stop.  His drive to win the presidency isn't to help people.  It's to inflate his own ego and line his pockets.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is just falling for his con job.

Agree Trump is running for his ego, but how does winning (or even running) help line his pockets?  His reputation and brand have been harmed by running.
How?

Among other things he's been labeled racist woman hater.  Whether that's true or not, it doesn't help branding.

Maybe not to you. But for the alt-right news network he plans to start this would be a plus.
All PR good PR and all that..

Mr Dorothy Dollar

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2016, 08:34:12 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

This argument is pure bs. It's like trying to say anyone that voted for Obama is directly responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital and all the women and children it maimed and killed and in fact they want more of that in the future. As said before you are delusional at best.




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There is a significant difference in logic. Obama did not run saying that he would bomb women and children. The Republicans are running on the promise to attach electrodes to minor's genitals. So yes, I can still claim the high ground.  When you vote Republican picture a child crying while an abusive religious zealot of a parent approves of the smell of burning genital flesh. It is disgusting and more disgusting that you are apathetic towards the thought.

As to Clinton, she has had years of investigations and nothing has been proven not for lack of motivation. Even if Clinton is corrupt weigh that with the repulsiveness above.

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2016, 08:53:40 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

This argument is pure bs. It's like trying to say anyone that voted for Obama is directly responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital and all the women and children it maimed and killed and in fact they want more of that in the future. As said before you are delusional at best.




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There is a significant difference in logic. Obama did not run saying that he would bomb women and children. The Republicans are running on the promise to attach electrodes to minor's genitals. So yes, I can still claim the high ground.  When you vote Republican picture a child crying while an abusive religious zealot of a parent approves of the smell of burning genital flesh. It is disgusting and more disgusting that you are apathetic towards the thought.

As to Clinton, she has had years of investigations and nothing has been proven not for lack of motivation. Even if Clinton is corrupt weigh that with the repulsiveness above.
Trump has said some crazy shit but please cite your example of him wanting to do such.


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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2016, 08:57:44 AM »


Trump does everything in his life for his own gain, full stop.  His drive to win the presidency isn't to help people.  It's to inflate his own ego and line his pockets.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is just falling for his con job.

Agree Trump is running for his ego, but how does winning (or even running) help line his pockets?  His reputation and brand have been harmed by running.

In addition to the free publicity he has been getting (if he doesn't win, he's going to get paid shitloads for TV, book, media deals), there's also the fact that if he does win, he can line his pockets. He has already said he wants to get rid of the estate tax, which would give his kids an estimated $4B tax break. He also has business interests in dozens of countries, which could pose a significant financial conflict of interest: http://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/23/donald-trump-foreign-business-deals-national-security-498081.html

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2016, 08:59:14 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

Gin - Thanks for clarifying.  I'll look into the conversion therapy, but with regard to the tying down women claim you should probably take that hyperbole to the abortion thread.

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2016, 09:05:00 AM »


Trump does everything in his life for his own gain, full stop.  His drive to win the presidency isn't to help people.  It's to inflate his own ego and line his pockets.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is just falling for his con job.

Agree Trump is running for his ego, but how does winning (or even running) help line his pockets?  His reputation and brand have been harmed by running.

In addition to the free publicity he has been getting (if he doesn't win, he's going to get paid shitloads for TV, book, media deals), there's also the fact that if he does win, he can line his pockets. He has already said he wants to get rid of the estate tax, which would give his kids an estimated $4B tax break. He also has business interests in dozens of countries, which could pose a significant financial conflict of interest: http://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/23/donald-trump-foreign-business-deals-national-security-498081.html

Trump was already getting boat loads of money for TV, book and media deals.  The birther stupidity would have died down and many of these scandals wouldn't have arisen without him running.  I've heard all publicity is good publicity, but am not sure unless he wants to headline a skinhead convention if he loses.

IF he wins, he Might be able to get rid of the estate tax but is that worth ruining your reputation with 1/2 the country?

I'm not a Trump fan, but really don't believe he is running for money.

Gin1984

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2016, 09:46:16 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

Gin - Thanks for clarifying.  I'll look into the conversion therapy, but with regard to the tying down women claim you should probably take that hyperbole to the abortion thread.
That is not hyperbole, and the fact that you think it is, is a problem.  I can think of a case in Florida off the top of my head where a woman disagreed with her doctors and was tied down to force "bed rest" until she gave birth. 

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2016, 09:52:25 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

Gin - Thanks for clarifying.  I'll look into the conversion therapy, but with regard to the tying down women claim you should probably take that hyperbole to the abortion thread.
That is not hyperbole, and the fact that you think it is, is a problem.  I can think of a case in Florida off the top of my head where a woman disagreed with her doctors and was tied down to force "bed rest" until she gave birth.

Equating a pro-life position to torturing the mother is hyperbole.  If you want to argue abortion, there is a thread for doing so.

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2016, 09:54:29 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

Gin - Thanks for clarifying.  I'll look into the conversion therapy, but with regard to the tying down women claim you should probably take that hyperbole to the abortion thread.
That is not hyperbole, and the fact that you think it is, is a problem.  I can think of a case in Florida off the top of my head where a woman disagreed with her doctors and was tied down to force "bed rest" until she gave birth.

Equating a pro-life position to torturing the mother is hyperbole.  If you want to argue abortion, there is a thread for doing so.
Tying someone down and forcing them to accept what you want to do to them, is torture.  As is birth if you did not want it.  The GOP are the ones that keep bringing this into the news but cutting women's rights away. Until they stop, I plan to speak up about it when discussing them. 

Mr Dorothy Dollar

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2016, 09:55:01 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

This argument is pure bs. It's like trying to say anyone that voted for Obama is directly responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital and all the women and children it maimed and killed and in fact they want more of that in the future. As said before you are delusional at best.




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There is a significant difference in logic. Obama did not run saying that he would bomb women and children. The Republicans are running on the promise to attach electrodes to minor's genitals. So yes, I can still claim the high ground.  When you vote Republican picture a child crying while an abusive religious zealot of a parent approves of the smell of burning genital flesh. It is disgusting and more disgusting that you are apathetic towards the thought.

As to Clinton, she has had years of investigations and nothing has been proven not for lack of motivation. Even if Clinton is corrupt weigh that with the repulsiveness above.
Trump has said some crazy shit but please cite your example of him wanting to do such.


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It is not Trump it is the Republican party platform (I never said it was Trump). This is not just one crazy guy this is a whole party of crazy. The party platform is attached for your convenience.  Page 37 the word therapy is conversion therapy.  It was more explicit as to therapy being conversion therapy in the original draft according to Time's reporting (also attached for your convenience and so you actually understand that therapy is intended to be conversion therapy).  If the party did not intend conversion therapy to be covered after their prior stances they should have made it clearly excluded. Further, the party has not contradicted the media's coverage of this so it should be taken as a fact that therapy includes conversion therapy. If some media was saying that I got off on burning children's genitals I would at least tell them they are wrong.

https://prod-static-ngop-pbl.s3.amazonaws.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf

http://time.com/4401600/gop-platform-contemplates-anti-porn-provision-embrace-of-conversion-therapy/

Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2016, 10:44:19 AM »
You want to elect people who will compel other people to do things that you think are better from your moral perspective but don't even believe strongly enough in to do yourself?

I have a hard time with people who basically say, "I think it's really important to do X. I believe it's moral and everyone should be compelled to do X. But I'm not really going to do X myself."

Collective action problem. I could give away every penny I own and it would be a drop in the ocean in regards to reducing poverty even if limited in scope to just the US. But if everyone in the country at my income level and higher pays more in taxes, it's a huge amount. I'm in the 33% marginal tax bracket and I would gladly vote to see my own taxes raised.

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2016, 05:42:28 PM »
Collective action problem. I could give away every penny I own and it would be a drop in the ocean in regards to reducing poverty even if limited in scope to just the US. But if everyone in the country at my income level and higher pays more in taxes, it's a huge amount. I'm in the 33% marginal tax bracket and I would gladly vote to see my own taxes raised.

4 months of labor out of the year isn't enough for you to throw at government officials to waste? Land of the fee, home of the enslaved.


Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2016, 05:48:48 PM »
I'm in the 33% marginal tax bracket. That's a far cry from paying 33% of my entire income in taxes.

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2016, 05:58:31 PM »
I'm in the 33% marginal tax bracket. That's a far cry from paying 33% of my entire income in taxes.

Have you factored in fica, state and local?  Sales tax?  Property tax?

oldtoyota

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2016, 06:23:49 PM »
I think they are both horrific candidates but my mind was made up last week when Clinton stated she has a plan to increase the estate tax to 65%. Is this vote selfish because this is one thing that will directly affect me? Sure I can admit that. http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-proposes-65-tax-on-largest-estates-1474559914

End of the day I hope whoever gets elected is blocked left and right by congress on their agenda and is replaced by a decent candidate of either party in 4 years. How did we come to this?

I thought the estate tax only kicked in above $5MM. I wonder how many that would affect. Also, can't a trust prevent estate taxes? I'm not a lawyer. Anyone know?

oldtoyota

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2016, 06:34:07 PM »
The entire history of the Clintons is one of corruption.

A guide to the 'Top 21' (!)
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

NPR has a guide as well
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/12/481718785/clinton-scandals-a-guide-from-whitewater-to-the-clinton-foundation

And right now, the FBI director Comey is testifying due to 'handing out immunity like candy' to 5 of Hillary's top aides and IT professionals.

The amazing thing about the Clintons is that they are defined by scandals. 'Ah another one. Carry on.' Their mode of operation is "Deny, Lie, Obfuscate'. They follow this pattern every single time. Quite tiring really.

Well, Colin Powell and Condi Rice both consider Benghazi a witch hunt. Sure, if you have people coming after you all the time, your reputation can take a hit.  I have not seen much proof of anything out of the ordinary.

If their history is corruption, it's because Republicans have made it their mission to find any little doo-dad and take the Clintons to task for it.

Trump cheated on his wife, too.

At least Clinton doesn't make antisemitic remarks, call Mexicans rapists, accuse the first black president of being "foreign" or do all the numerous other crazy things he's done.

At least she is not a narcissist.

At least Clinton pays her income tax.

At least Clinton doesn't call Latino people "housekeepers."

At least Clinton didn't celebrate the housing crisis.

At least Clinton gave the order to take out bin laden (isn't that supposed to make folks like you happy?)

Aat least Clinton passed legislation to create CHIP so kids would have healthcare.

What did Trump do? Use his foundation to pay his bills? Use his foundation to pay for a painting OF HIMSELF.

There is no comparison between these two candidates.

One has years of experience. One doesn't.

One has traveled to over 100 countries. One hasn't.

One has helped millions of people. One hasn't.

I will never understand anyone--even if they hate HRC--thinking DT is better or more knowledgeable in any regard.

If you want a racist, bigoted, Putin-cowering, antisemitic, entitled narcissist as your President, have at it.





oldtoyota

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2016, 06:38:36 PM »
Back on topic:

Is there anyone here who would claim the Clintons are incorrupt?

If so, can you do it with a straight face?

Corrupt is a completely subjective term. Have Clintons been in a few sticky situations over 26 years with intense media scrutiny? Sure. Who hasn't, with their level of exposure? If by corrupt, you mean that person has completed illegal acts that they should be prosecuted for, then, no, I do not believe they are corrupt.

If you look at the corrupt scale between Clintons and Trump, I think the Clintons are comparatively angels. If you look at the lie scale, same thing. Just look at all the fact checking over the previous week. Trump is one big fat walking lie.

Just today, news has come out that Trump illegally did business in Cuba during the embargo: http://www.newsweek.com/2016/10/14/donald-trump-cuban-embargo-castro-violated-florida-504059.html

And it seems like there's at least one similar Trump expose each week now, that the Clintons haven't even come close to matching over 26 years.

If you're voting for Trump b/c you feel Clintons are corrupt, I think you're horribly misguided. It's a foolish narrative.

+1

Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2016, 07:43:54 PM »
I'm in the 33% marginal tax bracket. That's a far cry from paying 33% of my entire income in taxes.

Have you factored in fica, state and local?  Sales tax?  Property tax?
I just did a comprehensive calculation of my taxes and income 2015, including all taxes (income tax, social security, medicare, employer's share of social security and medicare, real estate, and state sales tax) and all income except unrealized capital gains (taxable wages, 401k and match, HSA and match, gift income, employer's share of social security and medicare, interest, realized capital gains). My total tax rate for 2015 was approximately 25.6%.

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2016, 08:31:30 AM »
I'm in the 33% marginal tax bracket. That's a far cry from paying 33% of my entire income in taxes.

Have you factored in fica, state and local?  Sales tax?  Property tax?
I just did a comprehensive calculation of my taxes and income 2015, including all taxes (income tax, social security, medicare, employer's share of social security and medicare, real estate, and state sales tax) and all income except unrealized capital gains (taxable wages, 401k and match, HSA and match, gift income, employer's share of social security and medicare, interest, realized capital gains). My total tax rate for 2015 was approximately 25.6%.

25% of your work to the government seems more than enough.

deadlymonkey

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2016, 08:39:55 AM »
For 30+ years the Clinton's have been under the spotlight from reporters and an entire political party hell bent on their destruction.  Thirty years of focused investigations into absolutely anything they have ever done in an attempt to bring up something that will ruin them politically or put them in jail.  For 30 years, NOTHING has been found, sure there might have been wisps of smoke here and there but if after all that investigation, no one has been able to find any fire. 

That means that either the Clinton's are the absolute super villains of the world, capable of committing any number of crimes and leaving no evidence for their bitter enemies to find OR maybe they haven't actually committed any crimes and all the corruption that supposedly pervades them is trumped up BS.

Donald Trump on the other hand, has never been under the public glare until recently.  Even without people trying to take him down he was implicated in numerous criminal and civil violations over the past 30 years.  Now that the glare is on him, more and more is being dug up, many of which have clear documented evidence of corruption and malfeasance, he and his organization are being sued in court for some of these now, and with more and more cases coming to light I expect more lawsuits and criminal complaints being filed....assuming statute of limitations hasn't expired. 

acroy

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2016, 11:01:17 AM »
Back on topic:

Is there anyone here who would claim the Clintons are incorrupt?

If so, can you do it with a straight face?

Corrupt is a completely subjective term. Have Clintons been in a few sticky situations over 26 years with intense media scrutiny? Sure. Who hasn't, with their level of exposure? If by corrupt, you mean that person has completed illegal acts that they should be prosecuted for, then, no, I do not believe they are corrupt.

If you look at the corrupt scale between Clintons and Trump, I think the Clintons are comparatively angels. If you look at the lie scale, same thing. Just look at all the fact checking over the previous week. Trump is one big fat walking lie.

Just today, news has come out that Trump illegally did business in Cuba during the embargo: http://www.newsweek.com/2016/10/14/donald-trump-cuban-embargo-castro-violated-florida-504059.html

And it seems like there's at least one similar Trump expose each week now, that the Clintons haven't even come close to matching over 26 years.

If you're voting for Trump b/c you feel Clintons are corrupt, I think you're horribly misguided. It's a foolish narrative.

+1

- inability to answer very simple question. 'completely subjective'. c'mon really? You sound like Bill! hahaha! learn from the best I guess.
- Deflect, deflect!! Trump is terrible! deflect!

Is that it?

Papa Mustache

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2016, 11:13:17 AM »
It's funny to me that under 26 years of intense public scrutiny, the 2 most egregious things against her are:
1. She used a personal email server under the advisement of Colin Powell (her Republican predecessor). All govt. related emails are on govt. servers. She's said it was a mistake and has taken responsibility for it. No laws were broken. Nothing has been shown to have been hacked.
2. Republicans spent millions in taxpayer dollars and held 5 separate witchhunts... errr investigations to try to blame her for something in Benghazi, and weren't able to find anything substantive (with Gowdy basically walking away in shame after the last 12-hour hearing). In a way, they were successful, because they created a news cycle that implied guilt and the haters ate it up as the truth, and could run with the 'dishonest/corrupt' narrative. Many have come out after admitting it was just a witch hunt.

If a Republican politician had 26 years like that, that person would be deemed a saint.

Meanwhile, Trump has 2 worse scandals per week, but he's not corrupt at all. People are either lying to themselves to make themselves feel better about supporting a complete scumbag or they lack any mental capacity.

Back in the 90s the GOP witch hunt trying to destroy Bill (and their marriage) over lying about a mistress when Trump and Gingrich both are multiple "offenders" on the very same topic. Wasn't it Gingrich who was leading the witch hunt on old Bill? Talk about HYPOCRISY!

My prediction is that our next election might feature strippers, circus acts, farm animals running for election and perhaps a genetic clone of someone famous from 200 years ago. It just gets crazier and crazier.

I wouldn't mind another Barack Obama / Jimmy Carter type candidate. Someone whose attention is on their job and who has some basic ethics that endure all the way through their presidency. Someone with some class. Hillary comes closest this time but I'd like to see someone besides her on the ticket.

Papa Mustache

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2016, 11:19:05 AM »
Jim Crow laws were morally reprehensible on their face. There is nothing immoral about inheritance tax, since nobody has a moral claim to wealth they didn't earn simply by virtue of winning the genetic lottery. There is no equivalence here.

I never, ever said that they weren't morally reprehensible. That is not up for debate or question. But how can you not see that if you are "white", and possibly male, you won the "genetic lottery" yourself? There is absolutely valid argument here. Note: I never said equivalent, just a valid argument.   

Let's extrapolate worldwide, you are now in that "group" of billionaires relative to the world population and now we are going to take 65% of your assets when you die and divide it up among the "common". Are you ok with it then? Are you willing to forfeit 65% of your assets on death that you would have left to your family? If not, how can you reasonably ask someone else to do that?  What makes them different from you that you feel it is ok to just take from them how you wouldn't voluntarily give from yourself?

So create a charitable foundation... Give money to your favorite schools or build something and put your name on it.

So give as much as you can possibly give to your children directly.

Can't you tie up your money in property and add your children's name to the property so they can sell it later? Can't you withdraw it in cash (yeah I know, not easy to move a billion dollars in cash) and hand it to the children over the course of 20+ years?

Can't you move it out of the country into a foreign bank where inheritance taxes are more relaxed?

I can't help but believe that the average billionaire is far smarter than just allowing the gov't to take 65% of their wealth upon their death.

Surely they would reclassify and redistribute their fortune long before their death? Reduce their 'exposure" to the tax.

Papa Mustache

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2016, 11:31:12 AM »
https://prod-static-ngop-pbl.s3.amazonaws.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf

http://time.com/4401600/gop-platform-contemplates-anti-porn-provision-embrace-of-conversion-therapy/

Wonder what that does to the holiday family dynamic.

Mom and Dad - remember that time you sent me for shock therapy to fix my gayness? I have to tell you a few things about that experience...

In any other context that would be considered torture.

I'll ask the group - better or worse than waterboarding???

To me that would be reason enough to run interventions to free children from these places and those kinds of people.

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2016, 11:37:25 AM »

Back in the 90s the GOP witch hunt trying to destroy Bill (and their marriage) over lying about a mistress when Trump and Gingrich both are multiple "offenders" on the very same topic. Wasn't it Gingrich who was leading the witch hunt on old Bill? Talk about HYPOCRISY!

Not a fan of Gingrich or Trump, but Bill didn't just have an affair.  He was fooling around with a 22 year old subordinate and lying about it.  In a corporate culture, this often results in an executive being fired.

Schrodengerscat

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2016, 11:38:04 AM »
Jim Crow laws were morally reprehensible on their face. There is nothing immoral about inheritance tax, since nobody has a moral claim to wealth they didn't earn simply by virtue of winning the genetic lottery. There is no equivalence here.

I never, ever said that they weren't morally reprehensible. That is not up for debate or question. But how can you not see that if you are "white", and possibly male, you won the "genetic lottery" yourself? There is absolutely valid argument here. Note: I never said equivalent, just a valid argument.   

Let's extrapolate worldwide, you are now in that "group" of billionaires relative to the world population and now we are going to take 65% of your assets when you die and divide it up among the "common". Are you ok with it then? Are you willing to forfeit 65% of your assets on death that you would have left to your family? If not, how can you reasonably ask someone else to do that?  What makes them different from you that you feel it is ok to just take from them how you wouldn't voluntarily give from yourself?

So create a charitable foundation... Give money to your favorite schools or build something and put your name on it.

So give as much as you can possibly give to your children directly.

Can't you tie up your money in property and add your children's name to the property so they can sell it later? Can't you withdraw it in cash (yeah I know, not easy to move a billion dollars in cash) and hand it to the children over the course of 20+ years?

Can't you move it out of the country into a foreign bank where inheritance taxes are more relaxed?

I can't help but believe that the average billionaire is far smarter than just allowing the gov't to take 65% of their wealth upon their death.

Surely they would reclassify and redistribute their fortune long before their death? Reduce their 'exposure" to the tax.
One would think they would be smarter than that.... But then that begs the question of what use is this law? Why add more laws that will just be circumvented? It doesn't seem like a good use of time or resources.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2016, 11:40:11 AM »
https://prod-static-ngop-pbl.s3.amazonaws.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf

http://time.com/4401600/gop-platform-contemplates-anti-porn-provision-embrace-of-conversion-therapy/

Wonder what that does to the holiday family dynamic.

Mom and Dad - remember that time you sent me for shock therapy to fix my gayness? I have to tell you a few things about that experience...

In any other context that would be considered torture.

I'll ask the group - better or worse than waterboarding???

To me that would be reason enough to run interventions to free children from these places and those kinds of people.

I would consider electroshock therapy in that context to be torture.  Does all conversion therapy include this feature?

MasterStache

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2016, 12:25:41 PM »
Back on topic:

Is there anyone here who would claim the Clintons are incorrupt?

If so, can you do it with a straight face?

Corrupt is a completely subjective term. Have Clintons been in a few sticky situations over 26 years with intense media scrutiny? Sure. Who hasn't, with their level of exposure? If by corrupt, you mean that person has completed illegal acts that they should be prosecuted for, then, no, I do not believe they are corrupt.

If you look at the corrupt scale between Clintons and Trump, I think the Clintons are comparatively angels. If you look at the lie scale, same thing. Just look at all the fact checking over the previous week. Trump is one big fat walking lie.

Just today, news has come out that Trump illegally did business in Cuba during the embargo: http://www.newsweek.com/2016/10/14/donald-trump-cuban-embargo-castro-violated-florida-504059.html

And it seems like there's at least one similar Trump expose each week now, that the Clintons haven't even come close to matching over 26 years.

If you're voting for Trump b/c you feel Clintons are corrupt, I think you're horribly misguided. It's a foolish narrative.

+1

- inability to answer very simple question. 'completely subjective'. c'mon really? You sound like Bill! hahaha! learn from the best I guess.
- Deflect, deflect!! Trump is terrible! deflect!

Is that it?

You realize you posted a link to alleged "Clinton scandals" whereby it was pointed out how subjective they were (one was a GOP scandal on the taxpayers)? Does that mean subjective only works if it fits your narrative? ( :

In the context of your question looking for a candidate, a politician, or an actual human who has never demonstrated any form of literal corruption is pretty close to impossible. We've all lied at some point for personal gain. I think it is more than fair to compare the corruption of Clinton to that of Trump.

Gin1984

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2016, 12:47:31 PM »
https://prod-static-ngop-pbl.s3.amazonaws.com/media/documents/DRAFT_12_FINAL[1]-ben_1468872234.pdf

http://time.com/4401600/gop-platform-contemplates-anti-porn-provision-embrace-of-conversion-therapy/

Wonder what that does to the holiday family dynamic.

Mom and Dad - remember that time you sent me for shock therapy to fix my gayness? I have to tell you a few things about that experience...

In any other context that would be considered torture.

I'll ask the group - better or worse than waterboarding???

To me that would be reason enough to run interventions to free children from these places and those kinds of people.
Many end up killing themselves after going through it, I don't think there is an context where it is not torture.

oldtoyota

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #85 on: October 01, 2016, 09:12:37 PM »

Back in the 90s the GOP witch hunt trying to destroy Bill (and their marriage) over lying about a mistress when Trump and Gingrich both are multiple "offenders" on the very same topic. Wasn't it Gingrich who was leading the witch hunt on old Bill? Talk about HYPOCRISY!

Not a fan of Gingrich or Trump, but Bill didn't just have an affair.  He was fooling around with a 22 year old subordinate and lying about it.  In a corporate culture, this often results in an executive being fired.

I'm sure Trump and Gingrich would have told the truth had they been in the same position. LOL.

Midwest

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2016, 09:05:57 AM »

Back in the 90s the GOP witch hunt trying to destroy Bill (and their marriage) over lying about a mistress when Trump and Gingrich both are multiple "offenders" on the very same topic. Wasn't it Gingrich who was leading the witch hunt on old Bill? Talk about HYPOCRISY!

Not a fan of Gingrich or Trump, but Bill didn't just have an affair.  He was fooling around with a 22 year old subordinate and lying about it.  In a corporate culture, this often results in an executive being fired.

I'm sure Trump and Gingrich would have told the truth had they been in the same position. LOL.

Trump and Gingrich were not caught fooling around with the their 22 year old subordinate so they didn't need to lie about that particular issue.

oldtoyota

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2016, 03:05:38 PM »

Back in the 90s the GOP witch hunt trying to destroy Bill (and their marriage) over lying about a mistress when Trump and Gingrich both are multiple "offenders" on the very same topic. Wasn't it Gingrich who was leading the witch hunt on old Bill? Talk about HYPOCRISY!

Not a fan of Gingrich or Trump, but Bill didn't just have an affair.  He was fooling around with a 22 year old subordinate and lying about it.  In a corporate culture, this often results in an executive being fired.

I'm sure Trump and Gingrich would have told the truth had they been in the same position. LOL.

Trump and Gingrich were not caught fooling around with the their 22 year old subordinate so they didn't need to lie about that particular issue.

Right. And that is why I said: "I'm sure Trump and Gingrich would have told the truth had they been in the same position. LOL."

Trump is so truthful after all.