Author Topic: The Corruption of the Clintons  (Read 10284 times)

hoping2retire35

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The Corruption of the Clintons
« on: September 28, 2016, 07:59:51 AM »
http://www.politifact.com/arizona/statements/2016/jul/11/donald-trump/did-hillary-clinton-take-money-countries-treat-wom/

I guess no one cares.

Based on her rhetoric I would put the trump equivalent of him or his foundation taking money like this form the 'Mexican Manufacturing Business Interest' or the 'Chinese International Shipping Conglomerate'. I made up both of those btw, just demonstrating the point, except of course the Clinton one is still way worse for ignoring violations of human rights!

J_Stache

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 08:30:26 AM »
Or Trump manufacturing his products in China and Mexico...oh wait, he does. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2016/08/26/how-many-trump-products-were-made-overseas-heres-the-complete-list/

As for human rights, Donald Trump spoke highly of the great airports of the world.  Dubai, China, etc.  All these airports were built with no concern for the rights of workers.  http://www.citylab.com/commute/2016/09/why-is-the-dubai-airport-so-nice/501800/

Is Hillary the greatest choice ever?  No.  Is Donald Trump one of the worst choices ever?  Yes.  Voting against a candidate is perfectly reasonable, but the main reason that we have anything resembling a close race is because a lot of US voters don't care about treating gays or women fairly.

trailrated

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 09:08:22 AM »
I think they are both horrific candidates but my mind was made up last week when Clinton stated she has a plan to increase the estate tax to 65%. Is this vote selfish because this is one thing that will directly affect me? Sure I can admit that. http://www.wsj.com/articles/hillary-clinton-proposes-65-tax-on-largest-estates-1474559914

End of the day I hope whoever gets elected is blocked left and right by congress on their agenda and is replaced by a decent candidate of either party in 4 years. How did we come to this?

PathtoFIRE

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 09:18:00 AM »
my mind was made up last week when Clinton stated she has a plan to increase the estate tax to 65%

You expect to inherit or bequeath hundreds of millions of dollars? I say good job to you sir or madam!

MasterStache

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2016, 09:25:04 AM »
http://www.politifact.com/arizona/statements/2016/jul/11/donald-trump/did-hillary-clinton-take-money-countries-treat-wom/

I guess no one cares.

Based on her rhetoric I would put the trump equivalent of him or his foundation taking money like this form the 'Mexican Manufacturing Business Interest' or the 'Chinese International Shipping Conglomerate'. I made up both of those btw, just demonstrating the point, except of course the Clinton one is still way worse for ignoring violations of human rights!

Clinton herself took no money directly from any of these countries. If she herself had a long history of deplorable human rights decisions, I might agree with you. But you seem to be grasping at straws.

Don't forget Trump has manufacturing facilities (or Trump branded facilities) in other countries known for human rights violations. In fact Trump t-shirts were contracted out to a company in Honduras that paid slave wages, abused and "silenced" workers. That's not to say anything of his "mysterious" Chinese factories.

Do you own anything Apple? Apple is well known for numerous human rights violations in their Chinese facilities. If you own something with the Apple logo does that mean you support human rights violations. I am not making excuses, just pointing out technically we ALL could be found guilty of supporting this type of thing. So again your grasping at straws.   

Gin1984

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 09:28:34 AM »
http://www.politifact.com/arizona/statements/2016/jul/11/donald-trump/did-hillary-clinton-take-money-countries-treat-wom/

I guess no one cares.

Based on her rhetoric I would put the trump equivalent of him or his foundation taking money like this form the 'Mexican Manufacturing Business Interest' or the 'Chinese International Shipping Conglomerate'. I made up both of those btw, just demonstrating the point, except of course the Clinton one is still way worse for ignoring violations of human rights!
Because she did not, her foundation did and is using the money to do good.  It does not stop her from responding in an appropriated way.

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 09:39:27 AM »
You sure you want to go down this path?

Clinton's never took a dime from the foundation. No salary, nothing.

The foundation has saved millions of lives: http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2016/08/25/clinton_foundation_scandal_aids_relief_work_is_a_success.html

Charity Navigator and other charity rating services give the Clinton Foundation the highest rating: https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=16680

Meanwhile, Trump Foundation hasn't proved to save 1 life.

However, it did illegally used funds to bribe the Florida AG to not bring a case on Trump U (he was fined by the IRS for this): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/01/trump-pays-irs-a-penalty-for-his-foundation-violating-rules-with-gift-to-florida-attorney-general/

And he has used funds (given to him by others) to pay personal legal fees: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-used-258000-from-his-charity-to-settle-legal-problems/2016/09/20/adc88f9c-7d11-11e6-ac8e-cf8e0dd91dc7_story.html

acroy

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 09:41:48 AM »
The entire history of the Clintons is one of corruption.

A guide to the 'Top 21' (!)
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

NPR has a guide as well
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/12/481718785/clinton-scandals-a-guide-from-whitewater-to-the-clinton-foundation

And right now, the FBI director Comey is testifying due to 'handing out immunity like candy' to 5 of Hillary's top aides and IT professionals.

The amazing thing about the Clintons is that they are defined by scandals. 'Ah another one. Carry on.' Their mode of operation is "Deny, Lie, Obfuscate'. They follow this pattern every single time. Quite tiring really.

MasterStache

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 09:57:50 AM »
The entire history of the Clintons is one of corruption.

A guide to the 'Top 21' (!)
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

NPR has a guide as well
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/12/481718785/clinton-scandals-a-guide-from-whitewater-to-the-clinton-foundation

And right now, the FBI director Comey is testifying due to 'handing out immunity like candy' to 5 of Hillary's top aides and IT professionals.

The amazing thing about the Clintons is that they are defined by scandals. 'Ah another one. Carry on.' Their mode of operation is "Deny, Lie, Obfuscate'. They follow this pattern every single time. Quite tiring really.

Oh geez, I stopped at 2. Bill cheated on his wife and Benghazi has been beaten to death. 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/oct/12/hillary-clinton/clinton-there-have-been-7-benghazi-probes-so-far/

Dee18

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 09:59:08 AM »
I'm totally in favor of an estate tax for estates over $50 million, or even over $5 million.  One more reason I'm happy to vote for Clinton.

trailrated

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 10:00:24 AM »
I'm totally in favor of an estate tax for estates over $50 million, or even over $5 million.  One more reason I'm happy to vote for Clinton.

The tax is already there at roughly 40% after the threshold but she wants to further increase that to 65%.

infogoon

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2016, 11:39:12 AM »
Oh geez, I stopped at 2. Bill cheated on his wife and Benghazi has been beaten to death. 

Maybe we should have another Congressional hearing on Benghazi. Has Trey Gowdy recovered from the epic whooping he got before slinking away from the last one?

Rocket

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2016, 12:10:31 PM »
pathetic. 

The entire history of the Clintons is one of corruption.

A guide to the 'Top 21' (!)
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/12/bill-clinton-hillary-clinton-scandals-ranked-from-/

NPR has a guide as well
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/12/481718785/clinton-scandals-a-guide-from-whitewater-to-the-clinton-foundation

And right now, the FBI director Comey is testifying due to 'handing out immunity like candy' to 5 of Hillary's top aides and IT professionals.

The amazing thing about the Clintons is that they are defined by scandals. 'Ah another one. Carry on.' Their mode of operation is "Deny, Lie, Obfuscate'. They follow this pattern every single time. Quite tiring really.

Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2016, 12:16:13 PM »
This is absurd. Donald Trump is spectacularly, hilariously corrupt, and transparently so. He practically brags about it. Yet somehow the narrative in the media and popular culture is that Clinton is the one who's not trustworthy? I feel like the world has gone crazy.

Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2016, 12:18:16 PM »

acroy

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2016, 12:18:35 PM »
Oh geez, I stopped at 2. Bill cheated on his wife and Benghazi has been beaten to death. 

There were 19 more to go - In the abbreviated list. Surely there is something for everyone there! :)

partgypsy

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2016, 12:29:40 PM »
Oh geez, I stopped at 2. Bill cheated on his wife and Benghazi has been beaten to death. 

There were 19 more to go - In the abbreviated list. Surely there is something for everyone there! :)

Did you actually read all the outcomes of the investigations? Or are you one of those people who believe that Hillary is a closet lesbian who seduced Vince Foster and then killed him, murdered Ron Brown, as well Bill Clinton being involved in the serial killings of African American boys in Atlanta (well I worked with someone who believed those among other improbable things).
Wow they are so good at killing people and getting away with it maybe they're behind 9/11 (just kidding). I do believe Bill is a horndog and decent sax player, plenty of evidence for that.

 
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 12:31:32 PM by partgypsy »

Norioch

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a plan comes together

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2016, 12:39:47 PM »
It's funny to me that under 26 years of intense public scrutiny, the 2 most egregious things against her are:
1. She used a personal email server under the advisement of Colin Powell (her Republican predecessor). All govt. related emails are on govt. servers. She's said it was a mistake and has taken responsibility for it. No laws were broken. Nothing has been shown to have been hacked.
2. Republicans spent millions in taxpayer dollars and held 5 separate witchhunts... errr investigations to try to blame her for something in Benghazi, and weren't able to find anything substantive (with Gowdy basically walking away in shame after the last 12-hour hearing). In a way, they were successful, because they created a news cycle that implied guilt and the haters ate it up as the truth, and could run with the 'dishonest/corrupt' narrative. Many have come out after admitting it was just a witch hunt.

If a Republican politician had 26 years like that, that person would be deemed a saint.

Meanwhile, Trump has 2 worse scandals per week, but he's not corrupt at all. People are either lying to themselves to make themselves feel better about supporting a complete scumbag or they lack any mental capacity.


MasterStache

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2016, 12:47:56 PM »
Oh geez, I stopped at 2. Bill cheated on his wife and Benghazi has been beaten to death. 

There were 19 more to go - In the abbreviated list. Surely there is something for everyone there! :)

Umm no, considering the first two "scandals" centered around a horny husband and multiple investigations that yielded nothing. Although it was a scandal as it wasted millions of taxpayer dollars all for a political witch hunt.

infogoon

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2016, 12:57:36 PM »
If Hillary Clinton has actually been a deeply corrupt Machiavellian criminal for the last twenty-plus years without so much as a single indictment to show for it, she's going to be our most effective President ever. She might end up on Mount Rushmore by the time her second term is up.

GAR

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2016, 12:59:27 PM »
I'm totally in favor of an estate tax for estates over $50 million, or even over $5 million.  One more reason I'm happy to vote for Clinton.

The tax is already there at roughly 40% after the threshold but she wants to further increase that to 65%.

This may not affect your view, but as I read her proposal, the 65% rate is to apply to estates of over a billion.  https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2016/01/12/investing-in-america-by-restoring-basic-fairness-to-our-tax-code/

And given that the estate tax in general affects such a very small percentage of the US population, I would hope voters would pick a candidate based on issues that affect a bigger portion of the population.

Schrodengerscat

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2016, 03:16:15 PM »
I'm totally in favor of an estate tax for estates over $50 million, or even over $5 million.  One more reason I'm happy to vote for Clinton.

The tax is already there at roughly 40% after the threshold but she wants to further increase that to 65%.

This may not affect your view, but as I read her proposal, the 65% rate is to apply to estates of over a billion.  https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2016/01/12/investing-in-america-by-restoring-basic-fairness-to-our-tax-code/

And given that the estate tax in general affects such a very small percentage of the US population, I would hope voters would pick a candidate based on issues that affect a bigger portion of the population.
To put this in context, some people were ok with Jim Crow laws because it "affected a small portion of the population that wasn't like them".

The only difference is one is something that a person can't help, and the other is. It's easy to vote laws into existence that don't affect you.

Note: I'm not saying the two instances are equal in terms of magnitude, I am just using it an example of how awful that line of thinking is.

Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2016, 03:25:48 PM »
Jim Crow laws were morally reprehensible on their face. There is nothing immoral about inheritance tax, since nobody has a moral claim to wealth they didn't earn simply by virtue of winning the genetic lottery. There is no equivalence here.

trailrated

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2016, 04:26:00 PM »
There is nothing immoral about inheritance tax, since nobody has a moral claim to wealth they didn't earn simply by virtue of winning the genetic lottery. There is no equivalence here.

I am not saying that this tax should be abolished, but it currently stands at 40% after a certain threshold and Hillary wants to increase that to 65%. Essentially my vote for president is against the person wanting to raise that potential tax rate another 25%. So for purely selfish reasons, yes I would prefer to vote against the candidate that wants to tax me 25% more in the future.

I don't see this as morally reprehensible, there are plenty of people that vote for a candidate based on their one hot button issue. To some it is for (or against) gun rights, for some it is for (or against) pro life/pro choice, for some it is immigration policy. For me it is what I stated above.



Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 04:31:01 PM »
If you're voting pragmatically rather than morally, and your objection to Clinton's inheritance tax proposal is openly self-serving, then rest assured you have nothing to worry about. The proposal will never actually affect you since it will never become law since it will never pass Congress.

Schrodengerscat

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2016, 04:36:08 PM »
Jim Crow laws were morally reprehensible on their face. There is nothing immoral about inheritance tax, since nobody has a moral claim to wealth they didn't earn simply by virtue of winning the genetic lottery. There is no equivalence here.

I never, ever said that they weren't morally reprehensible. That is not up for debate or question. But how can you not see that if you are "white", and possibly male, you won the "genetic lottery" yourself? There is absolutely valid argument here. Note: I never said equivalent, just a valid argument.   

Let's extrapolate worldwide, you are now in that "group" of billionaires relative to the world population and now we are going to take 65% of your assets when you die and divide it up among the "common". Are you ok with it then? Are you willing to forfeit 65% of your assets on death that you would have left to your family? If not, how can you reasonably ask someoen else to do that?  What makes them different from you that you feel it is ok to just take from them how you wouldn't voluntarily give from yourself?

trailrated

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2016, 04:41:45 PM »
If you're voting pragmatically rather than morally, and your objection to Clinton's inheritance tax proposal is openly self-serving, then rest assured you have nothing to worry about. The proposal will never actually affect you since it will never become law since it will never pass Congress.

True, haha the fact that I am a voter in California doubly ensures my vote for POTUS will not count.

Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2016, 04:42:48 PM »
I am white, and I am male, and I was born to rich parent, and I will likely receive a huge inheritance when they die (though not huge enough to be subject to any inheritance tax, even under Clinton's proposal). I definitely did win the genetic lottery, and I know it. It's comically unfair in my favor. I don't have a spouse or any children of my own, by choice. If I die before my sister does (which is likely) then she'll probably inherit most of my wealth, but I know that isn't fair, either. The fair thing to do would be to take 100% of my wealth and distribute it worldwide upon my death.

Schrodengerscat

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2016, 05:01:26 PM »
I am white, and I am male, and I was born to rich parent, and I will likely receive a huge inheritance when they die (though not huge enough to be subject to any inheritance tax, even under Clinton's proposal). I definitely did win the genetic lottery, and I know it. It's comically unfair in my favor. I don't have a spouse or any children of my own, by choice. If I die before my sister does (which is likely) then she'll probably inherit most of my wealth, but I know that isn't fair, either. The fair thing to do would be to take 100% of my wealth and distribute it worldwide upon my death.

So what is stopping you from doing that on your own accord? Why must we hold a gun to people's head to do this? Again, even you stated this doesn't actually affect you, so why are you making the choice about what should happen to their property upon death? I'm far from that threshold, however I believe strongly in personal liberty and I feel that if you earned it, then it is your choice to decide what happens with it upon your death. Whether it be to give it all away, or give it to your next closest relative. My estate will probably either go to my wife when I die, or her cousin since we will never have kids. (By choice, not biology) That being said, I would probably choose to give at minimum 50% for a scholarship program that benefits "adult" students since I realized how underserved that "group" really is. Again, I don't have any preconceived notions that government knows better how to handle my money than I do. Especially given that I have seen the federal budget.

Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2016, 05:24:02 PM »
If you really want a deep dive into this topic...

My sense of morality is based on pragmatism in pursuit of utilitarianism. The goal should be the greatest good for the greatest number of people, and the strategy to pursue that goal should be whatever works. 100% income tax wouldn't work. That's basically communism, and it's been tried, and it's failed spectacularly. People need to be able to keep some of the fruits of their labor so they have some incentive to actually produce things, or nothing gets done. Trickle down economics has also been tried before, and while it works wonderfully for a small class of super rich owners of capital, it doesn't work at all for most of the population, thus failing the "for the greatest number of people" part of utilitarianism. What does work is progressive taxation used to fund progressive wealth distribution, with very high (but not 100%) taxes for the very rich, sort of like exactly what Clinton is proposing.

Inheritance tax is not exactly the same as income tax, but it has some similarities. From a libertarian, rather than utilitarian, moral worldview, it seems like you have much more of a moral claim to wealth you've earned yourself rather than wealth you inherit, thereby making inheritance tax at least somewhat more morally justifiable than income tax. But, you could argue that you have a libertarian moral right to decide where your wealth will go after you die (this seems iffy to me... what difference does it make to you if you're already dead?) which could raise a libertarian moral objection to inheritance tax. From a pragmatic utilitarian moral worldview, a 65% inheritance tax on billion-dollar estates is a complete no-brainer. Yes, you do want to create incentives to be productive, and the possibility of leaving a large inheritance to your kids is a big incentive. But leaving 35% of any additional money you make beyond a billion dollars in plenty incentive enough, and the harm done by removing the incentive to make more money is far outweighed by the good done by reducing generational class stratification.

As for why I haven't yet given away all my money in pursuit of utilitarianism... well, I don't act 100% altruistically all the time. Guilty as charged. That isn't going to stop me from considering the good of others besides myself when deciding who I vote for.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 05:28:30 PM by Norioch »

trailrated

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2016, 06:01:52 PM »
From a pragmatic utilitarian moral worldview, a 65% inheritance tax on billion-dollar estates is a complete no-brainer.

As for why I haven't yet given away all my money in pursuit of utilitarianism... well, I don't act 100% altruistically all the time. Guilty as charged. That isn't going to stop me from considering the good of others besides myself when deciding who I vote for.

1) I believe the current rate is roughly 5 mil though others have thrown out hundreds of millions and billions in their examples
2) It is an interesting view I do appreciate the admission of not being 100% altruistic (which only makes you normal). While I hope for general prosperity for all, I feel an obligation to make sure the people I care about are taken care of first and foremost.

Norioch

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2016, 06:40:03 PM »
1) I believe the current rate is roughly 5 mil though others have thrown out hundreds of millions and billions in their examples
The estate taxes proposed by Clinton are tiered, just like income taxes. The highest rate (65%) would only apply to amounts in excess of $1 billion for a couple or $500 million for an individual.

trailrated

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 07:09:27 PM »
1) I believe the current rate is roughly 5 mil though others have thrown out hundreds of millions and billions in their examples
The estate taxes proposed by Clinton are tiered, just like income taxes. The highest rate (65%) would only apply to amounts in excess of $1 billion for a couple or $500 million for an individual.
Stolen from forbes, "Ms. Clinton previously called for whittling the $5.45 million figure down to $3.5 million, and upping the 40% tax rate to 45%. But those were modest hikes, and that was then. Now, with populist flair, she wants a 50%, 55%, and 65% rate. The 50% rate applies to estates worth over $10 million per person, 55% for estates over $50 million, and 65% for estates exceeding $500 million."


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swiper

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 09:51:29 PM »
If you really want a deep dive into this topic...

+1 well said

As for why I haven't yet given away all my money in pursuit of utilitarianism... well, I don't act 100% altruistically all the time. Guilty as charged. That isn't going to stop me from considering the good of others besides myself when deciding who I vote for.

I struggle with the above. I justify current investment growth as satisfying greater future utility. Whats funny is that  I've never really considered it highly altruistically, more like just picking the low hanging fruit ...

Mr Dorothy Dollar

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2016, 10:08:09 PM »
If you have the privilege of basing your vote on the single issue of estate taxes, perhaps you keep that issue between you and your estate attorney. Everyone else should rightfully view you as a person with more money in the bank than compassion and overall goodness in your heart.

To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

trailrated

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2016, 11:11:15 PM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2016, 05:04:19 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.
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If you vote Republican because you are worried that your inheritance will be limited after the first billion dollars, and a consequence of voting Republican is that you are supporting a party that supports custodial conversion of gay youth, then yes, a side effect of your support is to condone the involuntary torture of children for money.

It's a classic anti-democratic ploy: "vote for me because I'll give you all these nice things", voters then discount the illegal/nasty things which they think won't affect them for that personal benefit, and then it's too late.

davisgang90

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2016, 05:14:22 AM »
Well if her plan for higher taxes and more government regulation won't tempt businesses to move back to the US, I don't know what will!

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 05:20:39 AM »
My sense of morality is based on pragmatism in pursuit of utilitarianism. The goal should be the greatest good for the greatest number of people, and the strategy to pursue that goal should be whatever works.


and this is why the US loves drone strikes...

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 07:03:00 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

ender

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 07:12:22 AM »
This thread is so full of crazy I don't even know where to start.

This is absurd. Donald Trump is spectacularly, hilariously corrupt, and transparently so. He practically brags about it. Yet somehow the narrative in the media and popular culture is that Clinton is the one who's not trustworthy? I feel like the world has gone crazy.

Why does Trump's trustworthiness have any bearing on Clinton's?



If you really want a deep dive into this topic...

My sense of morality is based on pragmatism in pursuit of utilitarianism. The goal should be the greatest good for the greatest number of people, and the strategy to pursue that goal should be whatever works. 100% income tax wouldn't work. That's basically communism, and it's been tried, and it's failed spectacularly. People need to be able to keep some of the fruits of their labor so they have some incentive to actually produce things, or nothing gets done. Trickle down economics has also been tried before, and while it works wonderfully for a small class of super rich owners of capital, it doesn't work at all for most of the population, thus failing the "for the greatest number of people" part of utilitarianism. What does work is progressive taxation used to fund progressive wealth distribution, with very high (but not 100%) taxes for the very rich, sort of like exactly what Clinton is proposing.

Inheritance tax is not exactly the same as income tax, but it has some similarities. From a libertarian, rather than utilitarian, moral worldview, it seems like you have much more of a moral claim to wealth you've earned yourself rather than wealth you inherit, thereby making inheritance tax at least somewhat more morally justifiable than income tax. But, you could argue that you have a libertarian moral right to decide where your wealth will go after you die (this seems iffy to me... what difference does it make to you if you're already dead?) which could raise a libertarian moral objection to inheritance tax. From a pragmatic utilitarian moral worldview, a 65% inheritance tax on billion-dollar estates is a complete no-brainer. Yes, you do want to create incentives to be productive, and the possibility of leaving a large inheritance to your kids is a big incentive. But leaving 35% of any additional money you make beyond a billion dollars in plenty incentive enough, and the harm done by removing the incentive to make more money is far outweighed by the good done by reducing generational class stratification.

As for why I haven't yet given away all my money in pursuit of utilitarianism... well, I don't act 100% altruistically all the time. Guilty as charged. That isn't going to stop me from considering the good of others besides myself when deciding who I vote for.


You want to elect people who will compel other people to do things that you think are better from your moral perspective but don't even believe strongly enough in to do yourself?

I have a hard time with people who basically say, "I think it's really important to do X. I believe it's moral and everyone should be compelled to do X. But I'm not really going to do X myself."


If you have the privilege of basing your vote on the single issue of estate taxes, perhaps you keep that issue between you and your estate attorney. Everyone else should rightfully view you as a person with more money in the bank than compassion and overall goodness in your heart.

To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?


You are supporting a candidate who has consistently acted in favor of wars in the Middle East. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Republicans which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending bombs where children in the Middle East get killed?

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2016, 07:22:44 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2016, 07:28:37 AM »
Well if her plan for higher taxes and more government regulation won't tempt businesses to move back to the US, I don't know what will!

Just an example, but a pretty good one. Notice it has nothing to do with "taxes" or "regulations."

https://9to5mac.com/2016/06/13/iphone-made-in-usa-cost/

Rust belt type jobs are disappearing anyways, thanks to robots, computers and automation. Folks think Donald is going to bring these types of jobs back to the US. But how? He would have to lower wages and reduce/negate regulations for starters. But then how many jobs will that actually bring back? And at what cost? Who is going to work these types of slave wage jobs?

As a species we are not good at adapting. We always talk about the "good ole days." I worked in a factory for a couple years in my late teens/early 20s. That factory disappeared because it merged with a sister factory to streamline production, reduce cost etc. Lots of people lost jobs. I quite before they up and left. But I adapted, got an engineering degree. Now I design/program the automation for the machines.

Point being, as harsh as this might sound, we have to adapt to the labor market. It's precisely why I think cheaper education is key. More folks obtaining college degrees competing for the plethora of good paying jobs out here. This could just be in my area, but engineering, computers, IT, etc. are all jobs that are in great supply where I live. 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 07:52:15 AM by BeginnerStache »

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2016, 07:51:21 AM »
Back on topic:

Is there anyone here who would claim the Clintons are incorrupt?

If so, can you do it with a straight face?

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2016, 07:57:46 AM »

You want to elect people who will compel other people to do things that you think are better from your moral perspective but don't even believe strongly enough in to do yourself?

I have a hard time with people who basically say, "I think it's really important to do X. I believe it's moral and everyone should be compelled to do X. But I'm not really going to do X myself."

Hi, welcome to (US) liberalism, progressivism, and eventually socialism! The greater good trumps all (no pun), and no limitations on individual liberty, personal responsibility or choice is too great in the face of utility and "common good". Of course what's good is decided by a simple majority. You'd rather make different choices for yourself? Too bad! For the common good it's best if you give us nearly all your money and retire when we tell you to (we'll just let you keep some to buy yourself some bread and circus, simply to avoid street protest).

I lived under this in the scandinavian countries, which for some absurd reason some people here adore.. I'm no raging republican, but the anti-induvidual (and anti-liberty) "common good" nonsense is what I hate about the northern europe social democracies. There's no personal freedom you can't take away if you can cook up some collectivist argument. And with the state being 30-40% of the workforce it pretty much has a reason to get into everything.

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2016, 08:00:04 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2016, 08:01:08 AM »
Back on topic:

Is there anyone here who would claim the Clintons are incorrupt?

If so, can you do it with a straight face?

What does that mean? Have either of them been convicted of corruption? Not as far as I know. That is an actual crime you know, which the police investigate and stuff. And if proven put people in jail for. I'd say that's a pretty good argument they're not corrupt. Considering how public they are I don't really have the hubris to claim to know something the whole law enforcement system in the US haven't figured out..

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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2016, 08:02:48 AM »
To vote based on a fear of higher estate taxes you have to vote for the party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children aginst their will. How can you talk all high and mighty about the evils of Clinton Corruption which at best is dubious and think you have the moral high ground supporting a platform pro sending children to get zapped and burned genitals?

I for one support gay marriage and plenty of other liberal social issues. Claiming supporting the current estate taxes instead of raising them means I support involuntary torture of children is fucking delusional.



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You may not support it but by your actions you condone it.  You are saying I find the idea of paying more in taxes to be less acceptable than the consequences of electing Trump/GOP.  That those consequences include torture of children and women (anti-choice) etc, is reality.

Are you referring to Trumps waterboarding comments or something else in the torture reference?
No, I am referring to the above comment about a "party platform that includes custodial conversion therapy of gay youth. You are supporting electrodes being placed on genitals and zapping children against their will." and a party platform that includes tying women down to force them to give birth.  If you read what the GOP wants and you are ok with that, you need to own that.

This argument is pure bs. It's like trying to say anyone that voted for Obama is directly responsible for the bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital and all the women and children it maimed and killed and in fact they want more of that in the future. As said before you are delusional at best.




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Re: The Corruption of the Clintons
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2016, 08:03:51 AM »
Back on topic:

Is there anyone here who would claim the Clintons are incorrupt?

If so, can you do it with a straight face?

That's a rather odd question. I think Clinton is a human being and like every other human being on this planet, by definition, is inherently corrupt. Although 4% of your fellow country folk might think she is a shape shifting reptilian. No joke!

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!