Tariff Insanity

[rosarugosa]

Well here we go, 25% on everthing from Mexico and Canada (except energy which is 10%, but expect canada and mexico to add export tariffs to that), he also apparently announced what appear to be export tariffs on american agricultural products, telling farmers they will be producing exclusively for american consumers now. I guess RFK thinks soybeans and corn are a balanced diet.

Export tariffs are unconstitutional.  When the thing was new and had to be sold to the states, almost everyone's livelihood was impacted by export economy.  Never could have passed with export taxes.

Fortunately your constitution doesn't apply to exports from the Great White North...    I'm going to miss my Florida orange juice though.

Sadly, our constitution doesn't seem to apply here anymore either.

[LennStar]

There should be more produce available to Americans from American farms, now that there is such a small market for it here. 

The produce is there,  but we're working on making sure nobody is around to harvest it....

I am sure proud Proud Boys and the other MAGAs will make sure that not a single American produce will be left on the fields. They will go out in 35°C sunshine and bow down the whole day to get everything! While only paid with proud patriotism!

[SunnyDays]

There should be more produce available to Americans from American farms, now that there is such a small market for it here. 

The produce is there,  but we're working on making sure nobody is around to harvest it....

Easy solution.  Turn all the fields into U Picks.

[RetiredAt63]

Well, Mexico and Canada are now in a trade war with the US.  Neither country knuckled under.

If I were religious I would be saying God have mercy on us all.

Since I'm not, karma is all I can hope for.  Since no impeachment seems likely, a heart attack or stroke for Trump, a fatal ski accident for Vance.  I saw video of him on a ski hill and he sucks at skiing.  Vance, meet tree.  Tree, meet trophy kill.

I am so pissed off at Trump. This was not necessary.

But if speculation is correct and he is is putin's puppet,  all is going according to plan.

Oh, and apparently Trump's nominee for ambassador to NATO wants all NATO countries to up military spending to 5% of GDP.  Ok, that will give us more protection against US aggression.  Do these people think?  And since when did one member get to change the rules on everyone else?

[jrhampt]

I'm also pretty pissed off.  I'm glad Canada and Mexico are standing their ground because at least that way there's a chance the U.S. administration learns something from this (might be overly optimistic) or (more likely?) the U.S. populace suffers enough for MAGA to get really pissed off at Trump, but this is so incredibly stupid and pointless.  Trump took a perfectly good economy/stock market/relationship w Canada/Mexico and is doing his best to tank it.  Ugh.

[PeteD01]

...

But if speculation is correct and he is is putin's puppet,  all is going according to plan.

...

Let me just say that here: Trump acting as Putin's agent against US interests is much more than mere speculation but rather an abductive inference.

Abductive reasoning

Abductive reasoning (also called abduction,[1] abductive inference,[1] or retroduction[2]) is a form of logical inference that seeks the simplest and most likely conclusion from a set of observations. It was formulated and advanced by American philosopher and logician Charles Sanders Peirce beginning in the latter half of the 19th century.

Abductive reasoning, unlike deductive reasoning, yields a plausible conclusion but does not definitively verify it. Abductive conclusions do not eliminate uncertainty or doubt, which is expressed in retreat terms such as "best available" or "most likely". While inductive reasoning draws general conclusions that apply to many situations, abductive conclusions are confined to the particular observations in question.

In the 1990s, as computing power grew, the fields of law,[3] computer science, and artificial intelligence research[4] spurred renewed interest in the subject of abduction.[5] Diagnostic expert systems frequently employ abduction.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning#:~:text=Abductive%20reasoning%20(also%20called%20abduction,from%20a%20set%20of%20observations.

[RetiredAt63]

...

But if speculation is correct and he is is putin's puppet,  all is going according to plan.

...

Let me just say that here: Trump acting as Putin's agent against US interests is much more than mere speculation but rather an abductive inference.

Abductive reasoning

Abductive reasoning (also called abduction,[1] abductive inference,[1] or retroduction[2]) is a form of logical inference that seeks the simplest and most likely conclusion from a set of observations. It was formulated and advanced by American philosopher and logician Charles Sanders Peirce beginning in the latter half of the 19th century.

Abductive reasoning, unlike deductive reasoning, yields a plausible conclusion but does not definitively verify it. Abductive conclusions do not eliminate uncertainty or doubt, which is expressed in retreat terms such as "best available" or "most likely". While inductive reasoning draws general conclusions that apply to many situations, abductive conclusions are confined to the particular observations in question.

In the 1990s, as computing power grew, the fields of law,[3] computer science, and artificial intelligence research[4] spurred renewed interest in the subject of abduction.[5] Diagnostic expert systems frequently employ abduction.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning#:~:text=Abductive%20reasoning%20(also%20called%20abduction,from%20a%20set%20of%20observations.

I was being cautious in my wording.  Plus he's not my president so I am biting my tongue, so to speak.   I'd give high odds he is.

[GuitarStv]

Plus he's not my president

I guess all bets are off when we become the 51st state in another few months.

[PeteD01]

Plus he's not my president

I guess all bets are off when we become the 51st state in another few months.

Well, they might be too busy in another few months with unforeseen problems if they are actually able to continue with the implementation of their master plan:

Democracy Is Done: The Rise of Corporate Monarchy
The Real Agenda Behind Elon's Coup & Trump's Chaotic First 3 Weeks
Shane Almgren
Feb 14, 2025

Alright, it's finally time to answer the million-dollar question that's on everyone's mind: WHY IS ALL THIS INSANITY HAPPENING IN OUR GOVERNMENT ALL OF A SUDDEN???

If you don't know what the ultimate agenda is, this first 3 weeks of Trump's presidency sure looks like a chaotic, haphazard, nonsensical 3-ring circus dumpster fire.

Absolutely none of it makes any sense.

Only it actually does...in a terrifying sort of way.

The first thing to remember is that real life isn't like a movie where the bad guys are all part of the same unified organization trying to take over the world. There are a number of bad actors with secret goals, and the one thing we may have working in our favor is that the ones we do know about clearly have different objectives, so it's entirely possible they sabotage each other before any of them successfully pull off their own batty agendas.

https://tinyurl.com/CorporateMonarchy

[reeshau]

Don't worry, everyone.  Trump is going to offer a way out on Wednesday.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5176167-lutnick-trump-may-announce-tariff-compromise-with-canada-mexico-on-wednesday/

Tariffs, following the DOGE formula for execution.

[Fru-Gal]

Plus he's not my president

I guess all bets are off when we become the 51st state in another few months.

Well, they might be too busy in another few months with unforeseen problems if they are actually able to continue with the implementation of their master plan:

Democracy Is Done: The Rise of Corporate Monarchy
The Real Agenda Behind Elon's Coup & Trump's Chaotic First 3 Weeks
Shane Almgren
Feb 14, 2025

Alright, it's finally time to answer the million-dollar question that's on everyone's mind: WHY IS ALL THIS INSANITY HAPPENING IN OUR GOVERNMENT ALL OF A SUDDEN???

If you don't know what the ultimate agenda is, this first 3 weeks of Trump's presidency sure looks like a chaotic, haphazard, nonsensical 3-ring circus dumpster fire.

Absolutely none of it makes any sense.

Only it actually does...in a terrifying sort of way.

The first thing to remember is that real life isn't like a movie where the bad guys are all part of the same unified organization trying to take over the world. There are a number of bad actors with secret goals, and the one thing we may have working in our favor is that the ones we do know about clearly have different objectives, so it's entirely possible they sabotage each other before any of them successfully pull off their own batty agendas.

https://tinyurl.com/CorporateMonarchy

Good overview article, fun writing style. I knew most of the stuff, but I did find his comment that for billionaires democracy is a step down to be somewhat explanatory. I also think that the article got it right that we’re talking about a coalition of malicious actors each with their own agenda.

We need a new thread about the presence of Nazis in American political history. Because like most people, I thought thought we were thoroughly done with them and it turns out that there are very deep connections. I had already known about operation paper clip, and our space program. But there’s much more to it, and I think we should delve into it.

[RetiredAt63]

Don't worry, everyone.  Trump is going to offer a way out on Wednesday.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5176167-lutnick-trump-may-announce-tariff-compromise-with-canada-mexico-on-wednesday/

Tariffs, following the DOGE formula for execution.

Like we are going to believe anything he says?

When he gives a formal public apology for all his 51st state comments we might thaw a tiny Itty bitty bit.  But this mess has shown us that too much of the US does not respect our sovereignty.  And lots of us knew we were too dependent on trade with the US because of NAFTA and it's successor.  This has been a wakeup call and we are paying attention. 

Two invasions plus Fenian raids may be in the past, but je me souviens.

[Travis]

Apparently Lutnick spent some time today on the phone with Ford. Ford was not having it.

https://x.com/l_stone/status/1897066443721888147?s=46&t=nzn3KruyGV0LzAK6Q2_NxQ

[RetiredAt63]

What I don't understand is US news outlets talking about Canada's and Mexico's "shocking/surprising responses" to the tariffs. We both said in February what our responses would be. We just got an extra month to prepare.

Did Donnie think he could win at Chicken?  All he had to do was see how strongly the Mexican🇲🇽 and Canadian🇨🇦 people supported resistance.  Hell, Canadians have been mounting an economic protest all on their own.

[Travis]

What I don't understand is US news outlets talking about Canada's and Mexico's "shocking/surprising responses" to the tariffs. We both said in February what our responses would be. We just got an extra month to prepare.

Did Donnie think he could win at Chicken?  All he had to do was see how strongly the Mexican🇲🇽 and Canadian🇨🇦 people supported resistance.  Hell, Canadians have been mounting an economic protest all on their own.

Bullies are most shocked when they get punched in return.

[Omy]

There's more support in the US for Canada and Mexico than there is for Trump.

[bmjohnson35]

What I don't understand is US news outlets talking about Canada's and Mexico's "shocking/surprising responses" to the tariffs. We both said in February what our responses would be. We just got an extra month to prepare.

Did Donnie think he could win at Chicken?  All he had to do was see how strongly the Mexican🇲🇽 and Canadian🇨🇦 people supported resistance.  Hell, Canadians have been mounting an economic protest all on their own.

Yes. US news = Media = Entertainment   

[Travis]

So now our tariff targets include the entire western hemisphere, Japan, China, and South Korea.

[sixwings]

So now our tariff targets include the entire western hemisphere, Japan, China, and South Korea.

Huh? Were more tariffs announced I’m unaware of?

With Trump, SK needs nukes FAST.  They are prrobably the democracy most at risk right (other than Ukraine obv).

[Cassie]

I know that Canadians don’t hate Americans. Canada has been threatened by trump and has to protect themselves. I’m doing everything I can to fight this coup. Canada should use everything at their disposal to fight against this evil.

[Travis]

So now our tariff targets include the entire western hemisphere, Japan, China, and South Korea.

Huh? Were more tariffs announced I’m unaware of?

With Trump, SK needs nukes FAST.  They are prrobably the democracy most at risk right (other than Ukraine obv).

Trump declared he wanted tariffs on the EU, China, Brazil, India, Mexico, Canada, and South Korea, with a new set to go into effect on April 2nd.

[Fru-Gal]

How is it allowable for the president to continuously threaten the sovereignty of our allies?

Is there not a single conservative voter who would find this ludicrous given that prior to the election it had never once occurred to them to acquire Panama, Greenland, or Canada?

[Gremlin]

How is it allowable for the president to continuously threaten the sovereignty of our allies?

Is there not a single conservative voter who would find this ludicrous given that prior to the election it had never once occurred to them to acquire Panama, Greenland, or Canada?

I don't see any evidence that you're threatening the sovereignty of your allies.  Only former allies.

[Travis]

How is it allowable for the president to continuously threaten the sovereignty of our allies?

Is there not a single conservative voter who would find this ludicrous given that prior to the election it had never once occurred to them to acquire Panama, Greenland, or Canada?

CBS speech poll: out of 50% Republicans, 25% Independents, and 25% Democrats polled who watched the speech:

75% liked it and most aspects of it

[Fru-Gal]

How is it allowable for the president to continuously threaten the sovereignty of our allies?

Is there not a single conservative voter who would find this ludicrous given that prior to the election it had never once occurred to them to acquire Panama, Greenland, or Canada?

I don't see any evidence that you're threatening the sovereignty of your allies.  Only former allies.

Yes, I understand, the damage is done. But the question isn’t entirely rhetorical.

I suppose it goes back to Trump 1.0, constantly menacing us with WWIII on Twitter, pumping and dumping, breaking every tradition that wasn’t nailed down such as releasing taxes or divesting or involving his family in his cabinet or holding court for high bidders at MAL etc.

America has been groomed for this moment, like an abuser grooms his victims, continuously eroding boundaries until something so catastrophically unacceptable as this is not only allowed, but applauded. To be clear, I’m not absolving us citizens for Trump’s crimes… the groomers were a howling pack of grifters, and the structures and institutions that allowed the wealthiest to evade consequences.

Unfortunately what comes next is something I don’t wish to be the first to write about on this forum. But I don’t believe it will be something outside of the US, but rather an internal rift. And sadly, some of his cabinet (Tulsi) have often spoken of such an outcome.

Not to mention Putin, who loves to encourage separatist movements outside of Russia

https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/moscow-holds-conference-to-encourage-european-and-american-separatists/

[Panly]

To avoid becoming the 51st state:  sell Canada to Blackrock!

[RetiredAt63]

To avoid becoming the 51st state:  sell Canada to Blackrock!

You know, at this point, that is not funny.  Not funny as in insulting.  If you haven't yet figured it out, what has Canadians so mad is the 51st state shit.  The tariff garbage didn't surprise us, Canada has been expanding its trade treaties since last time.  But we have zero desire to be states 51-60.  You've already invaded us twice and been kicked out twice.   Look at the date of Confederation.   1867. Your civil war ended and you had that army all well trained and you were looking north.  So instead of saying, sure, let's join the US, we purposely joined together to be stronger against you.

So as our PRIME MINISTER said, never never never will we be a state.

Trump is targeting allies and making them wary allies who are soon not going to be allies at all.  In the process we are all drawing closer together.

Canada can make things tougher in the US with retaliatory tariffs and energy surcharges, but only Americans can fix this.

And I'm not going to say sorry for the history lesson rant. 

[MustacheAndaHalf]

Is there not a single conservative voter who would find this ludicrous given that prior to the election it had never once occurred to them to acquire Panama, Greenland, or Canada?

To avoid becoming the 51st state:  sell Canada to Blackrock!

"A Hong Kong-based company has agreed to sell most of its stake in two key ports on the Panama Canal to a group led by US investment firm BlackRock.

The sale comes after weeks of complaining by President Donald Trump that the canal is under Chinese control and that the US should take control of the major shipping route."

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyzlk259g2o

[PeteD01]

...

But if speculation is correct and he is is putin's puppet,  all is going according to plan.

...

Let me just say that here: Trump acting as Putin's agent against US interests is much more than mere speculation but rather an abductive inference.

Abductive reasoning

Abductive reasoning (also called abduction,[1] abductive inference,[1] or retroduction[2]) is a form of logical inference that seeks the simplest and most likely conclusion from a set of observations. It was formulated and advanced by American philosopher and logician Charles Sanders Peirce beginning in the latter half of the 19th century.

Abductive reasoning, unlike deductive reasoning, yields a plausible conclusion but does not definitively verify it. Abductive conclusions do not eliminate uncertainty or doubt, which is expressed in retreat terms such as "best available" or "most likely". While inductive reasoning draws general conclusions that apply to many situations, abductive conclusions are confined to the particular observations in question.

In the 1990s, as computing power grew, the fields of law,[3] computer science, and artificial intelligence research[4] spurred renewed interest in the subject of abduction.[5] Diagnostic expert systems frequently employ abduction.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning#:~:text=Abductive%20reasoning%20(also%20called%20abduction,from%20a%20set%20of%20observations.

I was being cautious in my wording.  Plus he's not my president so I am biting my tongue, so to speak.   I'd give high odds he is.

Yes, high odds indeed. Here is a Grok (Musk's LLM) conversation about this issue:

Grok Conversation

What is the likelihood from 1-100 that Trump is a Putin compromised asset. Use all publicly available information from 1980 on and his failure to ever say anything negative about Putin but has no issue attacking allies?

Assessing the likelihood that Donald Trump is a compromised asset of Vladimir Putin, based on publicly available information from 1980 onward, involves analyzing a complex web of financial ties, personal interactions, political behavior, and circumstantial evidence. This is not a definitive determination but an estimation grounded in patterns and data accessible as of March 4, 2025. The question highlights Trump’s consistent reluctance to criticize Putin juxtaposed against his frequent attacks on U.S. allies, which is a key behavioral indicator to consider alongside historical and financial context.
From the 1980s onward, Trump’s business dealings provide a starting point. Public records show he pursued real estate ventures with significant Russian financial involvement. In 1987, Trump visited Moscow, a trip facilitated by Soviet officials, sparking speculation about early cultivation by Russian intelligence—speculation later fueled by former KGB agent Yuri Shvets, who claimed Trump was targeted as a potential asset due to his ego and financial vulnerabilities. Throughout the 1990s and 2000s, as Trump faced bankruptcies, he increasingly relied on funding from sources tied to Russia and former Soviet states. His sons, Donald Jr. and Eric, made statements reinforcing this: Donald Jr. in 2008 said, “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets,” and Eric in 2014 claimed, “We have all the funding we need out of Russia.” The Trump Organization’s partnerships, like with the Bayrock Group (led by Tevfik Arif and Felix Sater, the latter with known Russian mafia ties), and sales of properties to Russian oligarchs (e.g., Dmitry Rybolovlev’s 2008 purchase of a Trump property for $95 million), suggest a dependency on Russian money that could create leverage.
Intelligence reports and investigations add weight. The 2017 U.S. Intelligence Community assessment concluded Putin authorized interference in the 2016 election to favor Trump, a finding supported by the Mueller Report, which, while not proving criminal conspiracy, documented extensive Trump campaign-Russia contacts (over 100 by some counts). The unverified Steele Dossier alleges kompromat from Trump’s 2013 Moscow trip during the Miss Universe pageant, a claim echoed by speculation about earlier visits. Leaked Kremlin documents reported by The Guardian in 2021 suggest Putin personally approved a 2016 operation to back Trump, viewing him as “mentally unstable” and exploitable, with potential compromising material from past Moscow visits. The disappearance of a classified binder of Russia intelligence post-Trump term, as reported by Reuters in 2023, further stokes suspicions of hidden ties.
Trump’s behavior as president and beyond is striking. He has never directly criticized Putin, even when pressed—e.g., at the 2018 Helsinki summit, he sided with Putin’s denial of election interference over U.S. intelligence. Post-presidency, Bob Woodward’s 2024 book War alleges Trump spoke to Putin up to seven times, including a secretive 2024 call at Mar-a-Lago. Contrast this with his attacks on NATO allies, calling them “delinquent” on payments, or his 2025 Oval Office clash with Ukraine’s Zelenskyy, where he blamed Ukraine for Russia’s invasion—echoing Kremlin talking points. This pattern deviates from decades of U.S. policy and aligns with Russian interests, like weakening NATO and Ukraine.
Counterarguments exist: Trump’s administration imposed sanctions on Russia (e.g., over Skripal poisoning in 2018), expelled diplomats, and armed Ukraine—actions Putin wouldn’t favor. Some argue his pro-Russia stance reflects a misguided belief he can outmaneuver Putin, not compromise. Yet these measures were often driven by Congress or aides over Trump’s objections, and he downplayed their significance, maintaining personal warmth toward Putin.
Weighing this, the financial ties (decades-long, opaque, and substantial), intelligence suggesting Russian intent, and Trump’s unwavering refusal to criticize Putin despite attacking allies tilt the scale. The lack of transparency—e.g., hiding tax returns, seizing interpreter notes after Putin talks—amplifies suspicion. No smoking gun proves direct control, but the “useful idiot” scenario, where Trump’s ego and debts make him unwittingly pliable, fits the evidence. Adjusting for uncertainty and alternative explanations (e.g., ideological alignment or naivety), I estimate a 75-85% likelihood Trump is a Putin-compromised asset, leaning toward the higher end due to the consistency of his behavior and the depth of historical ties. This range reflects the strength of circumstantial evidence tempered by the absence of conclusive proof, a gap unlikely to close without classified data.


https://x.com/i/grok/share/WQepvCpIJl2EJ0F7tHNbLAhm6

[sixwings]

So now our tariff targets include the entire western hemisphere, Japan, China, and South Korea.

Huh? Were more tariffs announced I’m unaware of?

With Trump, SK needs nukes FAST.  They are prrobably the democracy most at risk right (other than Ukraine obv).

Trump declared he wanted tariffs on the EU, China, Brazil, India, Mexico, Canada, and South Korea, with a new set to go into effect on April 2nd.

RIP to the US economy I guess.

[Sibley]

There's more support in the US for Canada and Mexico than there is for Trump.

Count me in that number. At this point, the US has earned a good walloping. And yes, I'm American and live in a red state. I read an article yesterday about what the impact of the loss of federal funding is going to have on my state. It's not pretty. And that doesn't factor in price increases due to trade wars. All due to magical thinking of the uneducated.

[Travis]

Now that Trump's ego nuked the stock market for a second time, they're thinking about rolling back auto tariffs (to no doubt play this game again in a month)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-05/us-weighs-one-month-delay-of-auto-tariffs-on-canada-mexico?embedded-checkout=true

[RetiredAt63]

Now that Trump's ego nuked the stock market for a second time, they're thinking about rolling back auto tariffs (to no doubt play this game again in a month)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-05/us-weighs-one-month-delay-of-auto-tariffs-on-canada-mexico?embedded-checkout=true

Like Canadians trust anything this regime does.  I'm sure Mexicans and their government feel much the same.

Trust is broken.   Trump is the guy who pretends to throw the ball for his dog, and laughs when the dog goes chasing off and is upset it can't find the ball.

We'll apply pressure but Americans are going to have to fix this.  I hope you all like bourbon,  because Kentucky has lost its major international market.

Hmm, maybe that is part of the problem?   The US doesn't see us as an international market?  We are just there to be useful?   Believe me, Canadians are not appreciating a lot of what is coming out of the US these days.

I know he's a nut job, but wvoathkeeper is showing the bad side of American attitudes to us.  He would love to be part of an invasion force.

Btw, what is Vance's stance on all this?  Looking at videos, Donald is not a well man.  Even if everyone around him is covering for his narcissism and developing dementia, it is going to be difficult to support a president who  is having strokes. Or whatever.

[Travis]

Hmm, maybe that is part of the problem?   The US doesn't see us as an international market?  We are just there to be useful?   Believe me, Canadians are not appreciating a lot of what is coming out of the US these days.

This is how Donald Trump sees people in general. He's transactional with his blood relatives.

Apparently he and Trudeau just had a call that went nowhere with Trump still using the Fent excuse.

[Omy]

"We'll apply pressure but Americans are going to have to fix this."

Any ideas? I voted, donated, wrote postcards, protested, called my members of congress, boycotted. And I will continue to do those things.

Unfortunately, the coup seems firmly entrenched at this point. Republicans in congress fear Elon will primary them or that some proud boy will harm them or their families. Our media is owned by the oligarchs. Trump is likely a Putin asset and the election may have been compromised.

Is violence all that we have left?

[GuitarStv]

"We'll apply pressure but Americans are going to have to fix this."

Any ideas? I voted, donated, wrote postcards, protested, called my members of congress, boycotted. And I will continue to do those things.

Unfortunately, the coup seems firmly entrenched at this point. Republicans in congress fear Elon will primary them or that some proud boy will harm them or their families. Our media is owned by the oligarchs. Trump is likely a Putin asset and the election may have been compromised.

Is violence all that we have left?

The US has never before faced a plan to dismantle all checks and balances simultaneously.  It's floundering.  I don't know if a peaceful route to resolve the problem that you've created exists any more.  Let's see if those 2nd Amendment supporters were all full of shit and just wanted to collect guns, or if all the claims of 'I can fight off a despotic government' live up to the hype.

[Poundwise]

"We'll apply pressure but Americans are going to have to fix this."

Any ideas? I voted, donated, wrote postcards, protested, called my members of congress, boycotted. And I will continue to do those things.

Unfortunately, the coup seems firmly entrenched at this point. Republicans in congress fear Elon will primary them or that some proud boy will harm them or their families. Our media is owned by the oligarchs. Trump is likely a Putin asset and the election may have been compromised.

Is violence all that we have left?

The US has never before faced a plan to dismantle all checks and balances simultaneously.  It's floundering.  I don't know if a peaceful route to resolve the problem that you've created exists any more.  Let's see if those 2nd Amendment supporters were all full of shit and just wanted to collect guns, or if all the claims of 'I can fight off a despotic government' live up to the hype.

40% of the motivation of the 2nd Amendment people is wanting to collect guns, 60% is wanting to BE the despotic government. 

We're struggling.  Most people have their heads in the sand and are trying to live their lives as usual.  For them, action consists of reading some article about the latest destruction, and complaining about it.  It's not going to end well for us, please pray for us and try to keep this from happening to you. Campaign finance and a press that's free of billionaire influence are the hills to die on.

[Fru-Gal]

"We'll apply pressure but Americans are going to have to fix this."

Any ideas? I voted, donated, wrote postcards, protested, called my members of congress, boycotted. And I will continue to do those things.

Unfortunately, the coup seems firmly entrenched at this point. Republicans in congress fear Elon will primary them or that some proud boy will harm them or their families. Our media is owned by the oligarchs. Trump is likely a Putin asset and the election may have been compromised.

Is violence all that we have left?

Trump has frequently encouraged his followers to be violent.

Peaceful protest is what he hates most.

Peaceful protest is accessible to the most people, including elderly and women. Note how much he threatened voters during the election, and more recently students at universities, for showing up or peacefully showing solidarity against him. History shows that when just over 3% of the population participates in protests, regime change happens.

Encouraging or discouraging violence among Trump’s resistors is moot. If it happens, it will be due to pent up frustration that cannot be expressed any other way.

We should not pre-comply. While I think it’s wonderful that we bravely show our faces at this juncture, eventually this could be a bad idea. Do not bring your smart phone and consider wearing a mask, sunglasses, hat, or other clothing that can make you less recognizable.

[RetiredAt63]

No suggestions. 

Your police are armed to the teeth, so peaceful protests can be easily squashed. 

Your system depends so much on checks and balances that when they are all neutralized there is nothing really left.

Really, if I am being pessimistic, go read Heinlein, he predicted this, including the religious theocracy and the revolution.

What has happened in other countries is a military coup.  Not sure if this would happen in the US.  Not sure what would be necessary to have the high ranks (or Colonels, other places it seems the colonels do the revolutions) go against their Commander-in-Chief.


We have other protections - election campaign contribution rules, and hands-off electoral systems (Elections Canada determines riding boundaries, no Gerry-mandering).  But I am not sure it is proof against a huge pile of money - especially since we know there is American money (Koch for one) in our right-wing think tanks.  Why go to the effort of taking us over when we can be talked into delivering ourselves?  Donald may have done us a favour by showing how Maple Maga PP is.

But with a strong majority in the House a PM is dictator until the term ends.  So we have our own vulnerabilities.

[Travis]

Doesn't look like Canada is going to settle for another month of rugpulling.

https://www.cp24.com/news/2025/03/05/zero-tariffs-were-not-gonna-budge-ford-says-trumps-delay-on-auto-tariffs-not-good-enough/

[Sibley]

I do think its going to end in blood. Widescale mass peaceful protests will start peaceful and end in blood thanks to the militarized police. Or just skip that part and go straight to the violent civil war. Or assassinations.

It might take a while, but the US is fundamentally not Russia. Russia has centuries of history and cultural programming which has resulted in revolution after revolution leading to another authoritarian regime. The US' culture is built on very different bedrock principals. All the people right now cheering on Trump will eventually be under the boot, and eventually they'll wake up.

[RetiredAt63]

Doesn't look like Canada is going to settle for another month of rugpulling.

https://www.cp24.com/news/2025/03/05/zero-tariffs-were-not-gonna-budge-ford-says-trumps-delay-on-auto-tariffs-not-good-enough/

We don't want to be Charlie Brown to trump's Lucie. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UsolxctGzU

[mtnrider]

Doesn't look like Canada is going to settle for another month of rugpulling.

https://www.cp24.com/news/2025/03/05/zero-tariffs-were-not-gonna-budge-ford-says-trumps-delay-on-auto-tariffs-not-good-enough/

We don't want to be Charlie Brown to trump's Lucie. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UsolxctGzU

It's good to hear this.  I was around some MAGA-type Albertans last year and was wondering if the whole continent had changed while I had my head down.

[Travis]

Doesn't look like Canada is going to settle for another month of rugpulling.

https://www.cp24.com/news/2025/03/05/zero-tariffs-were-not-gonna-budge-ford-says-trumps-delay-on-auto-tariffs-not-good-enough/

We don't want to be Charlie Brown to trump's Lucie. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UsolxctGzU

It's good to hear this.  I was around some MAGA-type Albertans last year and was wondering if the whole continent had changed while I had my head down.

Funniest part of this whole debacle is Trump seems to have united most of Canada. External threats tend to do that. Two months it looked like Trudeau would resign in disgrace and his party would wither. Now Pierre has nothing to talk about without coming off as a Petain.

[Christof]

It might take a while, but the US is fundamentally not Russia. Russia has centuries of history and cultural programming which has resulted in revolution after revolution leading to another authoritarian regime. The US' culture is built on very different bedrock principals. All the people right now cheering on Trump will eventually be under the boot, and eventually they'll wake up.

I love your optimism, I really do!

Trump's grandfather is German. He moved to Alaska, made money illegally with hotels, moved back to Germany (Bavaria at that time), was rejected, because he was seen as someone who emigrated to avoid military service and ruled to be an illegal immigrant to Bavaria. He was promptly sent back to the US along with his six month pregnant wife. Trump's father was conceived in Germany (well, Bavaria) and only missed being a German by about 80 days.

Elon Musk is born in South Africa and has a Canadian mother. South Africa has relationships (to call it nicely) with the Netherlands. The Netherlands are a country next to Germany that is culturally very similar to us, except we invaded and destroyed it in WW2. We kind of go along now, but obviously trust has been lost. Just in case you should know about a similar situation in North America.

Peter Thiel (PayPal, Palantir) was born in Germany after WW2 (obviously) and emigrated to the US.

The Koch family originally is from the Netherlands, from the Northern part that shares language and history with the Friesisch part of Germany.

BTW, Putin speaks fluently German. He has been stationed in Eastern Germany for many years and learnt a lot about German mentally.

Our grand parents, they never really changed their minds in 60 years. That made for some uncomfortable encounters between them and us, as their grandchildren and our kids.

In the US, you have the saying "Been there, done that". I'm not saying that the previous sentence is related in any way with anything else I wrote.

[Fru-Gal]

https://www.democracynow.org/2025/2/10/elon_musk_doge_south_africa_apartheid

Who are the PayPal mafia, and how are they linked to apartheid-era South Africa?

CHRIS McGREAL: Well, they’re a group of men who were at the top, the founding of PayPal, all of whom, in some way or other, grew up in South Africa as children. You’ve got Musk himself, who was born in South Africa and lived there, went to high school there ’til he was 18, and then moves to Canada.

You’ve got Peter Thiel, who was a co-founder with Musk of PayPal. Thiel was born in Germany but brought to South Africa as a young child. His father was a mining engineer, lived in Johannesburg and then moved to South West Africa, which was then a South African colony, is now Namibia. And he went to school in Swakopmund, which was notorious as probably the last place on the planet where people still openly greeted each other with “Heil Hitler” and celebrated Hitler’s birthday. He went to a German school there before moving to the United States when he was 10 or 11.

You’ve got David Sacks, who was born in Cape Town. He was big in PayPal and is now Trump’s AI and crypto czar. He moved to Tennessee as a relatively young child but grew up in the white South African diaspora there.

And you’ve got Roelof Botha, who is the son of Pik Botha — sorry, the grandson of Pik Botha, the last foreign minister of apartheid South Africa. He was the acceptable face of apartheid. You will remember, he used to run around the United States trying to put a gloss on how they were reforming things and that everything was getting better, which apparently it wasn’t.

But, so, you see those four key people at the top of PayPal, and they all have this very intimate connection to South Africa.

[Sibley]

It might take a while, but the US is fundamentally not Russia. Russia has centuries of history and cultural programming which has resulted in revolution after revolution leading to another authoritarian regime. The US' culture is built on very different bedrock principals. All the people right now cheering on Trump will eventually be under the boot, and eventually they'll wake up.

I love your optimism, I really do!

Trump's grandfather is German. He moved to Alaska, made money illegally with hotels, moved back to Germany (Bavaria at that time), was rejected, because he was seen as someone who emigrated to avoid military service and ruled to be an illegal immigrant to Bavaria. He was promptly sent back to the US along with his six month pregnant wife. Trump's father was conceived in Germany (well, Bavaria) and only missed being a German by about 80 days.

Elon Musk is born in South Africa and has a Canadian mother. South Africa has relationships (to call it nicely) with the Netherlands. The Netherlands are a country next to Germany that is culturally very similar to us, except we invaded and destroyed it in WW2. We kind of go along now, but obviously trust has been lost. Just in case you should know about a similar situation in North America.

Peter Thiel (PayPal, Palantir) was born in Germany after WW2 (obviously) and emigrated to the US.

The Koch family originally is from the Netherlands, from the Northern part that shares language and history with the Friesisch part of Germany.

BTW, Putin speaks fluently German. He has been stationed in Eastern Germany for many years and learnt a lot about German mentally.

Our grand parents, they never really changed their minds in 60 years. That made for some uncomfortable encounters between them and us, as their grandchildren and our kids.

In the US, you have the saying "Been there, done that". I'm not saying that the previous sentence is related in any way with anything else I wrote.

Realism. Not optimism. I fully expect that the US is going to hit rock bottom before it has a chance of getting better. And yes, there are some people who will never change their minds or wake up to reality. But you're misunderstanding my point. At root, there is a thread of independence and defiance wound through the American mindset. It causes a lot of problems - people who refuse to trust the "govubmnt" or vaccines or whatever, "you can't tell me what to do!" and so on. Ever hear of Sovereign Citizens? It also enabled a lot of things - the exploration of the west, the transcontinental railway, the very founding of the country. But it will also, ultimately, be the redemption (or the destruction) of the US. It might take decades, and it certainly won't be easy or clean, but the worse things get in the US the more likely it is that the spark will be ignited.

Everyone is saying that the US populace isn't reacting right now. And we're not. We're too comfortable. Yes, the federal government is slipping into fascism and all that, but my internet still works, my power, my water isn't disgusting. There's still food in my fridge and cupboards. If I get sick, there's still a doctor I can see and medicine I can take. There's nothing that is pushing me to desperation. And it's not just me, its me times 200 million people. We're not desperate yet. There will come a point where people are desperate enough, are angry enough, and that's when the shit will really hit the fan.

It's not optimism. Because I don't think everything will be all right, not for a long time. I hope the world is ready for a wild ride, because like it not, we are not going to keep our problems to ourselves.

[Poundwise]

The "people will eventually get fed up with Trump to fight" optimism hope posits that the rain of pain will fall equally on red and blue.  But DOGE should be able to partition the American public into red and blue as easily as any marketer, and will be able to redirect resources towards their base.  Some people will get their tax refunds, some people won't.  Some people will get grants, and some people won't.  Think zersetzung.

[Sibley]

The "people will eventually get fed up with Trump to fight" optimism hope posits that the rain of pain will fall equally on red and blue.  But DOGE should be able to partition the American public into red and blue as easily as any marketer, and will be able to redirect resources towards their base.  Some people will get their tax refunds, some people won't.  Some people will get grants, and some people won't.  Think zersetzung.

You are discounting the impacts that are not controllable by anyone in the US. Canada is putting tariffs on the US. And they're cancelling contracts with US companies. And they're banning US companies from governmental contracts going forward. And apparently the entire country is removing all US made alcohol from their store shelves. Kentucky makes bourbon, and it is a large portion of their economy. Exports to Canada is massive for those distilleries. If their sales fall to the point that they have to downsize or close entirely, that will devastate Kentucky's economy. Can those people afford to feed their children if that happens?

I don't have a crystal ball. But people who don't have a lot of options now are only going to be in worse shape when some of their existing options are removed.

I could be wrong. We could easily go limping on for quite some time. I'm not measuring in months or even a few years. I'm looking at what's happening now, seeing the damage that is being incurred, and I know that the rest of the world is going to adapt. And eventually, it's going to be ugly. It might take 50 years. The arc of history is long. I am very tired of living in interesting times.

[bacchi]

I could be wrong. We could easily go limping on for quite some time. I'm not measuring in months or even a few years. I'm looking at what's happening now, seeing the damage that is being incurred, and I know that the rest of the world is going to adapt. And eventually, it's going to be ugly. It might take 50 years. The arc of history is long. I am very tired of living in interesting times.

Failed states (and by "states" I also mean provinces and countries) can continue on for a long time. Look at North Korea, which is constantly at or near starvation levels. In the US, look at Mississippi, which has been near the bottom for education and health care and per capita income for decades.

It's very possible that we can continue our foolish, anti-science, policies for years, all in the name of freedom or spite.