Author Topic: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK  (Read 4014 times)

Wrenchturner

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"Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« on: December 15, 2019, 10:11:43 PM »
It's a clickbait title, I'll admit, and maybe an inflammatory one.  But given the election turnout in the UK and this podcast's base being in the UK, it is understandable.

Rebel Wisdom has some very interesting conversations about emerging trends in socio-culture.  This one is great, I think, in part because of its conciseness.  There are a couple great excerpts from some of their other interviews which seemed to make the material more approachable.  Often their interviews are too dense for me to listen to consistently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1l7zZjYRhw

Any thoughts?  I agree with most of what was said in this video and I think it sheds some light on why many left wing governments have been unable to maintain their relevance to the electorate.

Please note: when they talk about "green" in the context of integral thinking, it is not "green" in the sense of the environment, but a grouping within the integral theory, see the attached image.

bacchi

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2019, 02:13:50 PM »
There's some truth at 23:45 and not only as it relates to immigration. There's also some unintended irony with constructing a chart of development and self-assigning yourself to a higher tier (20:20). ("I've created this chart of good-thinking people and I'm at the top while those people are still in the bottom tier.")

I'm going to take a more Marxist approach of what we're seeing in the UK and suggest that the "theres" are a victim and need a scapegoat, or perpetrator (~27:00) to blame for their falling fortunes. (This is of course not what the Roshi meant at all -- he's putting blame on the post-modernist left.) When Labour is pro-immigrant, and the least-powerful other is easy to blame, then the "theres" vote for the anti-immigrant party. We've seen it in the past and we'll see it in the future.

In the end, this podcast is one-sided, except for a few places. It's like they're still in their bubble. Tribalism? A product of the left! Virtue signalling? The left do it! Being a victim? The left are eternal victims! The left, the left, the left are so wrong and need to adjust their thinking!!1!!

But maybe it is meant to be mainly a criticism of the left and they also criticize the right in other podcasts. Right?

They made an effort but Daniel Schmachtenberger is more unbiased.

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2019, 06:19:26 PM »
There's some truth at 23:45 and not only as it relates to immigration. There's also some unintended irony with constructing a chart of development and self-assigning yourself to a higher tier (20:20). ("I've created this chart of good-thinking people and I'm at the top while those people are still in the bottom tier.")

I'm going to take a more Marxist approach of what we're seeing in the UK and suggest that the "theres" are a victim and need a scapegoat, or perpetrator (~27:00) to blame for their falling fortunes. (This is of course not what the Roshi meant at all -- he's putting blame on the post-modernist left.) When Labour is pro-immigrant, and the least-powerful other is easy to blame, then the "theres" vote for the anti-immigrant party. We've seen it in the past and we'll see it in the future.

In the end, this podcast is one-sided, except for a few places. It's like they're still in their bubble. Tribalism? A product of the left! Virtue signalling? The left do it! Being a victim? The left are eternal victims! The left, the left, the left are so wrong and need to adjust their thinking!!1!!

But maybe it is meant to be mainly a criticism of the left and they also criticize the right in other podcasts. Right?

They made an effort but Daniel Schmachtenberger is more unbiased.

I agree it's fairly one sided. 

Not sure what you mean about the "theres", do you mean "others", as it was used in the video?  You make a good point about people scapegoating immigrants, but this is an issue of boundaries and nationalism, isn't it?  Does a given nation-state have an obligation to help people outside its borders?  What if it occurs at the expense of the nationals?  If protectionism(for higher wages, for instance) has some merit, then it should follow that an argument to reduce immigration also has some merit, and isn't simply a scapegoat(although it may partly be one).  Of course, the Roshi would say the nationals should be more responsible... to earn their higher wages through merit, I suppose, rather than protectionism.  But this seems to reflect more on the assumptions on the "sanctity" of the nation-state.  I think right-wingers point to the fact that they have their own domestic issues to deal with, and so even the most successful nations are not in a post-scarcity state, which means they must triage their resources still, so some amount of restriction on immigration remains necessary.

I haven't seen a large amount of their other content so I can't say for sure if they are more neutral in other podcasts.  From what I have seen, however, I'd say most are framed this way as well--not to say that they are necessarily blaming the left, more that the left is generally having a harder time bounding their ideological space to avoid virtue signaling, identity politics, puritanism, etc.  (I personally believe this will always be the case, as the left integrates chaos and the right imposes order, roughly speaking.  The left will always look chaotic at the moment and the right will always look dogmatic in retrospect). 

It seems to me that the right wing has done a pretty good job including progressive ideas that are clear cut, such as gay marriage or homosexuality generally, integrating atheism, avoiding xenophobia, etc but this could be my bias speaking.  There are certainly people on the right that are bigots but I do not think they are integrated into the right wing dialog to the degree that leftist ideologues are integrated into the left.

In any case, the question remains why left wing governments(with the rough exception of my home and native land) are typically losing elections.

bacchi

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2019, 07:59:36 PM »
I agree it's fairly one sided. 

Not sure what you mean about the "theres", do you mean "others", as it was used in the video? 

Oh, sorry, it was "anywheres" and "somewheres," where the "somewheres" live in the countryside. 22:30

Quote
You make a good point about people scapegoating immigrants, but this is an issue of boundaries and nationalism, isn't it?  Does a given nation-state have an obligation to help people outside its borders?  What if it occurs at the expense of the nationals?  If protectionism(for higher wages, for instance) has some merit, then it should follow that an argument to reduce immigration also has some merit, and isn't simply a scapegoat(although it may partly be one).  Of course, the Roshi would say the nationals should be more responsible... to earn their higher wages through merit, I suppose, rather than protectionism.  But this seems to reflect more on the assumptions on the "sanctity" of the nation-state.  I think right-wingers point to the fact that they have their own domestic issues to deal with, and so even the most successful nations are not in a post-scarcity state, which means they must triage their resources still, so some amount of restriction on immigration remains necessary.

Well, right, and that's the point the guy on the right made. There's the "NO" immigration side, the "YES" immigration side, and the more nuanced immigration side.

We've discussed this in an immigration thread. As I recall, most leftists on this forum understand that we can't just allow everyone into the country (US).

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It seems to me that the right wing has done a pretty good job including progressive ideas that are clear cut, such as gay marriage or homosexuality generally, integrating atheism, avoiding xenophobia, etc but this could be my bias speaking.  There are certainly people on the right that are bigots but I do not think they are integrated into the right wing dialog to the degree that leftist ideologues are integrated into the left.

Eh. Most US Democrats are moderate or conservative. That's why Biden and Buttigieg are so popular. It's only the outliers, like Warren or Sanders, that we hear about the most. Note that the far leftists in the Democratic primary have about 33% total.

In the US, the evangelical base is about 50% of the Republican party. They're the social conservative tail wagging the pro-business dog.

I don't know enough about the UK to know whether leftist ideologues control the Labour party.

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In any case, the question remains why left wing governments(with the rough exception of my home and native land) are typically losing elections.

The Democratic party in the US isn't doing badly either. Is Macron considered a liberal?

The wheel turns as one side reaches too far; as long as the wheel isn't broken, that side gets placed between the wheel and the ground eventually.

The "death of the left" is much ado about nothing.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 08:10:26 PM by bacchi »

ChpBstrd

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2019, 10:07:31 PM »
People seek a "tribe". Once they've found a tribe, they compete for status within it, and to not be outcast from the tribe. They do so by behaving like what they think a stereotypical member is supposed to do.

For the right-wing tribe, all one has to do is whatever the leader (media, religious, political) says. Do that and your place in the tribe is secure. Bonus: everyone is united. Downside: lack of checks and balances leading to inevitable servility and fascism.

For the left-wing tribe, there is less emphasis on obedience to any person, so people compete on the basis of using the right words, purging centrists from the tribe, virtue signaling, attention seeking no matter the cost to the movement, and other conspicuous displays of just how in-the-tribe they are. Bonus: ? Downside: political self-destruction is inevitable, leading to the consequences that happen when the right-wing tribe is dominant.

habanero

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2019, 01:37:24 AM »
The contents of "left" and "right" are quite different in Europe and the US and even more so if you move up to the Nordic countries. Pretty much any "right-wing" party we have in Norway would be considered borderline commies by US standards (i.e. there is no serious debate whatsoever if the health care system should be public or the educational system should be free for the most obvious examples).

cerat0n1a

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2019, 03:16:14 AM »
I don't know enough about the UK to know whether leftist ideologues control the Labour party.

They do. That, combined with a leader who opinion polls gave something like a -60% approval rating to before the election campaign began meant that the Labour party had no chance of actually winning. We were faced with a choice of Prime Minister between someone who even his own supporters consider an untrustworthy liar and someone who much of the electorate considers completely unsuitable for the job and who can easily be portrayed as a friend of Iran, Venezuela, Palestinian terrorists, Hugo Chavez the IRA etc. If the Labour party had selected someone who looked like Prime Minister material back in 2015, they'd be running the country next year. No need for a complicated psychological explanation. (Personal bias disclosure - I think 95% of what Ken Wilber says is nonsense.)

Even within the UK, the Scottish National Party is most-definitely left-wing and won almost a complete sweep of seats in Scotland. What looks like it's going to be the most right-wing government we've ever had is still proposing to employ 50 000 extra nurses and build 40 new hospitals for our free healthcare system (whether they actually do so remains to be seen). It's not America.

If you look at the new government, 3 of the top 4 positions are filled by the children of immigrants - foreign secretary Dominic Raab's father came to the UK from Czechoslovakia; home secretary Priti Patel's parents were Ugandan Indians and chancellor Sajid Javid is the son of Pakistani immigrants. Johnson could not be considered an immigrant, although he was born in the US, but has Muslim and Jewish great-grandparents and has called himself a one-man melting pot. So it seems pretty odd to be making the election a debate about immigration.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 03:46:03 AM by cerat0n1a »

habanero

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2019, 03:44:36 AM »
This is a pretty decent summary of what happened and why the conservatives won by a landslide, it touches upon, among others, the points made by the previous poster.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party

(for those who don't know the Guardian it's a very left-leaning newspaper in the UK)

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2019, 09:30:50 AM »
People seek a "tribe". Once they've found a tribe, they compete for status within it, and to not be outcast from the tribe. They do so by behaving like what they think a stereotypical member is supposed to do.

For the right-wing tribe, all one has to do is whatever the leader (media, religious, political) says. Do that and your place in the tribe is secure. Bonus: everyone is united. Downside: lack of checks and balances leading to inevitable servility and fascism.

For the left-wing tribe, there is less emphasis on obedience to any person, so people compete on the basis of using the right words, purging centrists from the tribe, virtue signaling, attention seeking no matter the cost to the movement, and other conspicuous displays of just how in-the-tribe they are. Bonus: ? Downside: political self-destruction is inevitable, leading to the consequences that happen when the right-wing tribe is dominant.

That's a good analysis.   I think the benefit on the left is something like "new tools to deal with developments in society".

@bacchi I'll get to your post when I'm back on my pc.  Nested quotes on mobile is no bueno.

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2019, 09:33:04 AM »
The contents of "left" and "right" are quite different in Europe and the US and even more so if you move up to the Nordic countries. Pretty much any "right-wing" party we have in Norway would be considered borderline commies by US standards (i.e. there is no serious debate whatsoever if the health care system should be public or the educational system should be free for the most obvious examples).

I think the Nordic countries are a sort of socio economic outlier.  They have good wealth, good societal integration of almost all people, and they don't have contentious histories of civil war.

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2019, 09:40:57 AM »
This is a pretty decent summary of what happened and why the conservatives won by a landslide, it touches upon, among others, the points made by the previous poster.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-party

(for those who don't know the Guardian it's a very left-leaning newspaper in the UK)

That's a pointed and balanced article, and fairly damning despite coming from the guardian.  I really wish they would open their comment sections more on articles like this.

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2019, 07:43:45 PM »
I agree it's fairly one sided. 

Not sure what you mean about the "theres", do you mean "others", as it was used in the video? 

Oh, sorry, it was "anywheres" and "somewheres," where the "somewheres" live in the countryside. 22:30
Now I understand.  So you said that the "somewheres" are (potentially) victims and need a scapegoat, for instance immigration.  I'm not sure if that's entirely right because not all the "somewheres" have had falling fortunes.  Some people choose to be more "somewhere" rather than "anywhere", and I think you could point to temperament as well as career choice for this.  Those people are likely to identify more with a national identity and I don't think this is wrong, persay, just a preference.  I personally don't see how we can abolish borders, for instance, and still celebrate different national or cultural identities.  I'm open to being wrong on this, I personally have elements of being a "somewhere" and being an "anywhere". 

The people in the middle are interesting as well.  I've heard it characterized like this: left wingers that don't like borders but live in gated communities.  Are they "somewheres" or "anywheres"?  Are they nationalistic?  Do they live in the same "where" as the "somewheres", given that they live in an enclave?  To what degree is the nationalism of the typical "somewhere" working-type a symptom of selfish scarcity-thinking, where the success of an immigrant(for instance) is seen as a loss for a local?  Is it zero-sum?  Hard to say...  Many immigrants are willing to work harder for less, is this something we should be encouraging in developed societies?  They might be more likely to break rules to get ahead, or to overlook safety or employment regulation issues, etc.  That might be an unfair generalization but it has been noted by Statistics Canada that large scale immigration does reduce incomes:
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2014364-eng.htm
"Overall a 10% immigration-induced increase in the labour supply, which is a very large supply increase, reduces wages of the Canadian-born by 3% to 4%. Immigration increases labour supply by perhaps 0.7% to 0.8% per year in Canada, which might reduce wages of the Canadian-born by around 0.3% according to this study."

Please note: I'm not totally obsessed with immigration, but it is a good place to have this conversation.

Quote
Well, right, and that's the point the guy on the right made. There's the "NO" immigration side, the "YES" immigration side, and the more nuanced immigration side.

We've discussed this in an immigration thread. As I recall, most leftists on this forum understand that we can't just allow everyone into the country (US).
I'd agree with that.

Quote
The "death of the left" is much ado about nothing.

I'd agree with you in the context of the US.  Several more moderate Democrats are getting their signals through.  But the Guardian article above makes some pretty clear points about the situation in the UK, that the Labour party has lost for nine years, and has lost seats each year.  It does suggest that they're getting something wrong.

To be fair, nine years isn't much longer than a two-term US president. 

Bloop Bloop

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2019, 01:46:56 AM »
Migration might decrease native-born wages somewhat but it sure as hell increases the wages of the migrants.

I don't see that as a bad thing - I'd like intelligent and hard-working people to do well, regardless of their place of birth. In my country I see waves of migrants - starting with the Greeks and Italians decades ago, then the Chinese and Vietnamese, now Indians and Sri Lankans - coming in here, initially starting out humbly by driving taxis or running milk bars, but then their kids turn out to be business owners, doctors, lawyers, accountants. I see it as a great thing. If it means that "native" Australians lose out on wages it doesn't worry me at all. I see it as a net benefit.

I don't know why the left struggles so much - maybe it's just wedged. Its progressive social policies don't appeal to the insular working class and its anti-free-market policies don't appeal to less insular working class like me and the ruling class will always have a conservative slant.

habanero

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2019, 03:33:58 AM »
I don't know why the left struggles so much - maybe it's just wedged. Its progressive social policies don't appeal to the insular working class and its anti-free-market policies don't appeal to less insular working class like me and the ruling class will always have a conservative slant.

A quite common explanation for at least part of the problem is an obsession with identity politics driven by some variation of an academic elite, and in the process pretty much loosing sight of what actually matters to most potential voters - and that ain't the rights of <fill in minority of your own choice>. Or put another way, they devout an awful lot of energy on causes that at best are tangential to most potential voters and for some downright off-putting.

In most European countries the classic big social-democratic parties have been somewhere between significantly weakened to decimated. In addition to identity politics immigration is often cited as a major source as it tends to affect the classic left-voters significantly more. In a tabloid way due to immigration I can buy goods and services much cheaper than otherwise, while those who used to perform those services or make those goods have seen their pay stagnate as their end of the labour market faces fierce competition from foreign workers and companies, while I'm - at least for now - pretty much sheltered from that competition. My job won't ever be transferred abroad and it cannot be performed by some immigrant with fairly basic qualifications.

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2019, 09:17:49 AM »
Migration might decrease native-born wages somewhat but it sure as hell increases the wages of the migrants.

I don't see that as a bad thing - I'd like intelligent and hard-working people to do well, regardless of their place of birth. In my country I see waves of migrants - starting with the Greeks and Italians decades ago, then the Chinese and Vietnamese, now Indians and Sri Lankans - coming in here, initially starting out humbly by driving taxis or running milk bars, but then their kids turn out to be business owners, doctors, lawyers, accountants. I see it as a great thing. If it means that "native" Australians lose out on wages it doesn't worry me at all. I see it as a net benefit.

I don't know why the left struggles so much - maybe it's just wedged. Its progressive social policies don't appeal to the insular working class and its anti-free-market policies don't appeal to less insular working class like me and the ruling class will always have a conservative slant.

Migration is certainly good for the migrants, no question there.  And you can't blame them for trying either.

Maybe the nationalist argument is a bad one, and the economic impact is the more significant one.  Immigrants do push down wages and that doesn't sit well with working class left leaners.  It also pushes down wages of future non-native populations as well.  We need more working middle class in most developed societies, it's something that's been dying off and it really affects society badly.

Insular economic stratification destroys ambition.  Just my opinion obviously.  It's no wonder companies can't find decent low level staff, those workers don't see opportunity in this situation.

I think your analyses are correct(also @habaneroNorway); that the so called liberal elite chose identity politics and other more superficial issues to drive their political pursuits, and they have abandoned the less elite lefties who might otherwise vote for them.

In context, the left in the US seems to be moving closer to the middle, but the left in the UK has evidently continued down this road for a while; it's not just that they have lost this election, but they have been losing seats for years.

I'm sure at some point their parties will hemmorhage the politics that voters aren't buying.

I don't know what that solution looks like.  Some people have suggested higher corporate taxes to pay for entitlements.  Voters will line their pockets somehow, and if they can't do it through wage negotiation they'll find another way.

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2019, 05:18:00 PM »
The contents of "left" and "right" are quite different in Europe and the US and even more so if you move up to the Nordic countries. Pretty much any "right-wing" party we have in Norway would be considered borderline commies by US standards (i.e. there is no serious debate whatsoever if the health care system should be public or the educational system should be free for the most obvious examples).

I think the Nordic countries are a sort of socio economic outlier.  They have good wealth, good societal integration of almost all people, and they don't have contentious histories of civil war.

In Canada there's very little debate about pay for play medicine, or private education replacing the multiple public options either, and our political parties are also much more left leaning.

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2019, 08:56:07 PM »
The contents of "left" and "right" are quite different in Europe and the US and even more so if you move up to the Nordic countries. Pretty much any "right-wing" party we have in Norway would be considered borderline commies by US standards (i.e. there is no serious debate whatsoever if the health care system should be public or the educational system should be free for the most obvious examples).

I think the Nordic countries are a sort of socio economic outlier.  They have good wealth, good societal integration of almost all people, and they don't have contentious histories of civil war.

In Canada there's very little debate about pay for play medicine, or private education replacing the multiple public options either, and our political parties are also much more left leaning.

Many Canadians use private medical care, I've considered it myself, and I have relatives that have gone to Mexico for medical work.  Possibly more popular in Alberta where private healthcare clinics are fairly common.  I would say there's a fair bit of debate about private medicine, and a number of private schools, although my experience is that private schooling isn't valued heavily.  Could be a sampling bias though.  I don't know anyone who went to a private school.

Our political parties are somewhat left leaning but also very crony-ist.  They definitely don't seem to support the working class.  No concern at all for the extraordinarily high private debt numbers, it seems. 

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2020, 08:03:49 AM »
There's some truth at 23:45 and not only as it relates to immigration. There's also some unintended irony with constructing a chart of development and self-assigning yourself to a higher tier (20:20). ("I've created this chart of good-thinking people and I'm at the top while those people are still in the bottom tier.")

I'm going to take a more Marxist approach of what we're seeing in the UK and suggest that the "theres" are a victim and need a scapegoat, or perpetrator (~27:00) to blame for their falling fortunes. (This is of course not what the Roshi meant at all -- he's putting blame on the post-modernist left.) When Labour is pro-immigrant, and the least-powerful other is easy to blame, then the "theres" vote for the anti-immigrant party. We've seen it in the past and we'll see it in the future.

In the end, this podcast is one-sided, except for a few places. It's like they're still in their bubble. Tribalism? A product of the left! Virtue signalling? The left do it! Being a victim? The left are eternal victims! The left, the left, the left are so wrong and need to adjust their thinking!!1!!

But maybe it is meant to be mainly a criticism of the left and they also criticize the right in other podcasts. Right?

They made an effort but Daniel Schmachtenberger is more unbiased.

Only watched parts, but yeah didn't seem very useful. He actually said "the people who are tolerant, are therefore intolerant of other's intolerance". Seems like standard left-strawmanning

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2020, 09:57:39 AM »
Only watched parts, but yeah didn't seem very useful. He actually said "the people who are tolerant, are therefore intolerant of other's intolerance". Seems like standard left-strawmanning

The leading left party in the UK hasn't won an election since 2005, with 35% of the vote.  Their support has been weak ever since.  They are clearly getting something wrong.  The party seems to be suffering from some type of Puritanism.

Scandium

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2020, 07:38:09 AM »
Only watched parts, but yeah didn't seem very useful. He actually said "the people who are tolerant, are therefore intolerant of other's intolerance". Seems like standard left-strawmanning

The leading left party in the UK hasn't won an election since 2005, with 35% of the vote.  Their support has been weak ever since.  They are clearly getting something wrong.  The party seems to be suffering from some type of Puritanism.

OK sure, but whining about lefty strawmen as they do in this video doesn't seem particularly useful.

Wrenchturner

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2020, 09:49:50 AM »
Only watched parts, but yeah didn't seem very useful. He actually said "the people who are tolerant, are therefore intolerant of other's intolerance". Seems like standard left-strawmanning

The leading left party in the UK hasn't won an election since 2005, with 35% of the vote.  Their support has been weak ever since.  They are clearly getting something wrong.  The party seems to be suffering from some type of Puritanism.

OK sure, but whining about lefty strawmen as they do in this video doesn't seem particularly useful.

Okay, would you care to offer an explanation for the problem?  Something is causing the labour party to keep losing.

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Re: &quot;Why the left keeps losing&quot; - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2020, 09:57:59 AM »
Only watched parts, but yeah didn't seem very useful. He actually said "the people who are tolerant, are therefore intolerant of other's intolerance". Seems like standard left-strawmanning

The leading left party in the UK hasn't won an election since 2005, with 35% of the vote.  Their support has been weak ever since.  They are clearly getting something wrong.  The party seems to be suffering from some type of Puritanism.

OK sure, but whining about lefty strawmen as they do in this video doesn't seem particularly useful.

Okay, would you care to offer an explanation for the problem?  Something is causing the labour party to keep losing.
No I won't, why should I? I was not the one making a video claiming to explain it! I'm confused why you would demand I explain the state of the labor party when I never claimed I could, bizarre..

I only know this video is full of shit. E.g. Whining about "pc culture and indenty politics", when polls say voters top concerns were NHS and brexit..? Seriously?

Wrenchturner

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Re: &quot;Why the left keeps losing&quot; - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2020, 10:28:57 AM »
No I won't, why should I?
Because I asked politely, and because you are commenting in a forum where people discuss things.

Quote
I'm confused why you would demand I explain the state of the labor party when I never claimed I could, bizarre..
No demand was made!

Quote
I only know this video is full of shit. E.g. Whining about "pc culture and indenty politics", when polls say voters top concerns were NHS and brexit..? Seriously?

Now we're getting somewhere!  Valid points on your part.  Perhaps it's projection by those who made the video.  Brexit does seem to have a politically correct narrative attached to it; that those supporting brexit are not inclusive enough or that they are not team players.  Maybe Labour simply bit off more than they could chew(or indeed, that the electorate could chew):

From the guardian article above:

"Well, guess what. Labour’s “radical” manifesto of 2019 achieved precisely nothing. Not one proposal in it will be implemented, not one pound in it will be spent. It is worthless. And if judged not by the academic standard of “expanding the discourse”, but by the hard, practical measure of improving actual people’s actual lives, those hate figures of Corbynism – Tony Blair and Gordon Brown – achieved more in four hours than Corbyn achieved in four years. Why? Because they did what it took to win power.

That’s what a political party is for. It’s not a hobby; it’s not a pressure group that exists to open the Overton window a little wider; it’s not an association for making friends or hosting stimulating conversations and seminars; it’s not “a 30-year project”. Its purpose is to win and exercise power in the here and now. It is either a plausible vehicle for government or it is nothing."

You see, my disagreeableness is more topical than my conservatism.  So despite my preference for conservative strategies, I know that a weak left wing has its own set of moral hazards.  A weak left makes a careless right.  And it poisons the well of the sociopolitical system where people lose confidence in it.  This is unwise in our otherwise effective and privileged western societies.

marty998

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2020, 01:01:03 PM »
No I won't, why should I?
Because I asked politely, and because you are commenting in a forum where people discuss things.

Quote
I'm confused why you would demand I explain the state of the labor party when I never claimed I could, bizarre..
No demand was made!

Quote
I only know this video is full of shit. E.g. Whining about "pc culture and indenty politics", when polls say voters top concerns were NHS and brexit..? Seriously?

Now we're getting somewhere!  Valid points on your part.  Perhaps it's projection by those who made the video.  Brexit does seem to have a politically correct narrative attached to it; that those supporting brexit are not inclusive enough or that they are not team players.  Maybe Labour simply bit off more than they could chew(or indeed, that the electorate could chew):

From the guardian article above:

"Well, guess what. Labour’s “radical” manifesto of 2019 achieved precisely nothing. Not one proposal in it will be implemented, not one pound in it will be spent. It is worthless. And if judged not by the academic standard of “expanding the discourse”, but by the hard, practical measure of improving actual people’s actual lives, those hate figures of Corbynism – Tony Blair and Gordon Brown – achieved more in four hours than Corbyn achieved in four years. Why? Because they did what it took to win power.

That’s what a political party is for. It’s not a hobby; it’s not a pressure group that exists to open the Overton window a little wider; it’s not an association for making friends or hosting stimulating conversations and seminars; it’s not “a 30-year project”. Its purpose is to win and exercise power in the here and now. It is either a plausible vehicle for government or it is nothing."

You see, my disagreeableness is more topical than my conservatism.  So despite my preference for conservative strategies, I know that a weak left wing has its own set of moral hazards.  A weak left makes a careless right.  And it poisons the well of the sociopolitical system where people lose confidence in it.  This is unwise in our otherwise effective and privileged western societies.

Ahh this hits several nails on the head. The left in Australia suffers from the same malaise.

The Green Party would rather remain ideologicallly pure than electable. Their polling has been stuck at 10% for 30 years. What is interesting though is that the spread of their voters is narrowing to several inner city areas and coastal holiday spots, and is collapsing in suburbia. So the density of votes in some areas is actually helping them to win a couple of seats, allowing them to claim success and bask in it, while masking the underlying stagnation.

The main left wing party, the Labor Party, are simply too afraid to upset anyone. The electorate recognised that sometimes in politics you need to make tough decisions. You need to be tough enough to cut spending, take away benefits*, use the stick instead of the carrot, and yes, be seen to be tough on illegal immigrants.

The conservatives (Liberal Party) are not afraid to do that and hence seem to have a lock on government 70% of the time. Every now and again they push too far and when people can’t stomach it we punish them and give the other mob a go. But soon enough, we re-elect a Tory government to go back and fix things.

I don’t consider myself right wing. Just calling it how I see it.

*At the last election Labor did propose to cut a whole lot of tax concessions and raise a shit load of money. Two problems with that - it upset a lot of electorally powerful old people, and no one believed them that they would use the money responsibly to pay off the deficit and debt. People knew that they would massively increase spending with not much to show for it.

They were politically risky and yep, it achieved precisely nothing because they lost.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 01:03:13 PM by marty998 »

ChpBstrd

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Re: "Why the left keeps losing" - Rebel Wisdom podcast, UK
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2020, 01:39:59 PM »
Perhaps the difference is that people on the left primarily want to be ethically good people, and people on the right primarily want to be in control.

These different objectives lead to varying strategies, for the leftists can still get what they want by being perpetual losers and a permanent opposition, and it’s easier to get it that way too.