Author Topic: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.  (Read 23237 times)

Syonyk

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So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« on: December 08, 2022, 10:11:04 PM »
Just close the thread, nothing of value in here, nothing of value lost, etc.  Don't waste your time.

=======

I've been doing a lot of evaluation lately on how I spend time, the value I get out of how I spend my time, etc.  Call it a midlife re-evaluation or something, since I've past 40, and while I still have plenty I care to get done, there's more and more that I simply don't care for anymore, and most of my interaction with the internet is in the second category - it's... a thing I do, but I can't exactly explain why other than "It's been a thing I've done, so I ought to keep doing it."  Which, of course, is the sunk cost fallacy.

But, beyond that... I look around this place and I just don't recognize it.  I've been a member for... some long while, almost a decade, and read a lot before I joined.  It used to be an interesting, refreshing place, because it was against the consumer defaults.  Facepunches abounded.  If you asked something stupid, you got plenty of replies telling you that, and suggesting some standard cliches about bicycles, but they weren't wrong either in many of the cases.  And it was a major influence in me deciding to work out ebikes for commuting, which worked better in Seattle than anything else, it's certainly shaped how I think about things, and I like to think that era is a major reason why I was able to reject "expanding my life to fit my income" and just live more simply.  My wife, certainly, is better at that than I am, and serves as a useful counterweight to some of my wasteful spending tendencies.

Lately?  I've been in and out erratically for periods of time, but I just don't recognize the place anymore.  Consumer Sukka Central is what I see, over and over.  Car's broken?  Well, there are deals on new cars!  You deserve it.  Consumer electronics, life, spending... the place is just mainline now.  "I want to spend money, help me justify it!"  There's none of the old scrappiness and sharp edged debate that used to make the forum fun.  I'll toss it in every now and then, but I feel like the lone voice in the wilderness more and more, saying "Turn your fucking lights off!" and "Fix your fucking car, it's a 100k mile Toyota, it's not end of life."

But more than that, I've concluded that consumer tech is just a dead end trap.  Whatever the promises of it in the 90s, or the early 2000s, it's turned into something else in the last decade.  A lot of people have recognized it, I'm a bit slow on the uptake there, probably because a lot of my life was connected with it somehow.  It's piles of broken complexity on top of piles of broken complexity on top of an environmental disaster.

Modern phones are just attention vampires - they've been weaponized against us, to make us "eyeballs" to "monetize" with "impressions."  After having collected all of our data, or whatever wasn't nailed down, to attempt to figure out how to best manipulate us to align with the goals of whoever's paying best for that capability.  The ways to interact with them can be reduced to the point that they're not doing anything particularly evil (mostly), and... at that point, what's the point?  It bugs me greatly how hard it is to live without a smartphone these days, and I say that having spent a year trying with KaiOS and a Flip IV.  Would still be using it, but the hardware failed - I could no longer text without constant corrections, and even dialing phone #s was getting erratic as the keypad died.  Texting is still how a lot of stuff is coordinated, so I need something, but... it can live on the counter.

The same goes for modern computers.  Windows 11, as being discussed elsewhere recently, is something resembling a train wreck that obsoleted a whole crapton of perfectly good computers because the OEMs pressured Microsoft.  The requirements are nonsensical on the face in many cases (this processor, well, unless it's a Microsoft Surface that shipped last year with an older one, so that particular system is stlil supported) and you can get around them without any real issues, but it's an OS fundamentally designed to collect your data and deliver ads to you - remember back in the beta when Explorer locked up because of a bad ad blob delivered by Microsoft?  That's how fundamentally tied advertising is to Windows 11.  We're heading for the Idiocracy TV, when a tiny bit of content is locked up in tons of advertising - again, to manipulate our attention and to attempt to make humans into profitably predictable little consumers.  Fuck.  That.

And it goes on and on.  A modern flagship game is a high cost purchase for a game that then tries to addict you into buying more.  It's Vegas, in your pocket, or on your TV, or computer.  Yay?  It can't be a complete and functional game, because then how will you drive people nuts to spend more?

I'm pretty sure modern LED lighting will eventually be determined to be nicely nasty for humans too - the blue it puts out (even the white ones - they're blue LEDs with some phosphor to shift some of the color energy around) is squarely in the chunk of spectrum humans use to determine that it's daytime (the blue suppresses melatonin production), so... yay, we've made homes that are impossible to sleep in.

And so it goes, and goes.

And I think I need to be done with the modern, digital, consumer tech ecosystem.  I still work in the space, but that sort of crap needs to be contained better to just that space.  I've been heading this way in stages, and in various hops and skips over the last 5 years, but it's come to a head, and I think the internet, even the useful corners like this, just needs to go back to the little box we kept it in during the 90s and early 2000s, when it wasn't everywhere, and it hadn't been weaponized against human attention like it is now.

So, I think I drop back to my little niche corner, go publish only with my blog for project documentation, and shake loose an awful lot of formerly wasted time to go work in the analog spaces that make up the interesting bits of reality.

Any lingering advice is simple: Use less energy, do your own solar, and fix your damned car.  Preferably doing all of these yourself.

So long and thanks for all the fish!

Telecaster

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2022, 11:27:20 PM »
Sorry to see you go man.  I often disagreed with your opinions, but always felt you were coming from a position of reason, which helped me refine my own opinions.  Your posting style has some sharp elbows, but I never felt you were coming from a position of malice, instead of blunt education.  I thought your posts were a breath of fresh air.  You will be missed.

englishteacheralex

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2022, 12:06:31 AM »
I had the 100k Toyota and you talked me into keeping it. But I understand wanting to be mindful in how you spend your time and deciding against an internet forum.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2022, 04:57:57 AM »
A construictive idea - if you find a better forum, I'd be curious about it.

If cluelessness is your biggest concern, that rules out most of reddit, which otherwise probably has every topic imaginable.

ATtiny85

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2022, 05:30:15 AM »
I was considering a new post to the Lottery Fantasy thread about this. I made the comment at a recent gathering that the first that would happen if I won the lottery, the very first fucking thing, would be to take my cellphone and toss it right in the trash. Done. The iPad, which serves as my e-reader, would be a tougher thing, but it likely would follow. That fantasy got me thinking about a broader fantasy. I would work to reconstruct the 90s, especially from a tech point of view.

So I get it. And I share your view of how this forum has evolved in a poor direction over the last decade.

If you find a better place, pop back in and tell us. Maybe I have still my Usenet cheatsheet somewhere.

jrhampt

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2022, 05:51:34 AM »
Well, I'll miss your car and solar/energy posts.  I was considering getting a new car for the first time in my life when my honda fit got totalled in an accident this summer and the used car market was at peak nuts, but in part your posts convinced me to go with (and stick with) an elderly prius that still hopefully has lots of life left in it.

TreeLeaf

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2022, 06:08:25 AM »
Sorry to see you go.

Your posting style and comments of randomly calling people ass holes can be harsh at times, but it also helped me to realize leaving lights on at night is an ass hole sort of behavior that I should stop doing. Thank you for helping me realize this.

You may feel more at home on the ERE forums...It is a more technical focused, lower income and more DIY focused forum. You should definitely check out those forums.

https://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/index.php

Good luck. :)

chemistk

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2022, 07:28:35 AM »
So long and thanks for all the fish!

If you ever come back here, I'll challenge you to be a little to a lot more flexible. If I didn't have any context from seeing your posts here over the years, I'd say this smells a bit like a frustration-induced tantrum.

Pardon my directness - you are fortunate to live and work in such a way that allows you to come to the conclusions you have reached. You have spent time in industries that enable you to have a number of perspectives and myriad experiences that none of us have. Many of us coming to this forum were raised and live in suburban and urban environments. We chose life paths long before stumbling across MMM that put us at a disadvantage to do what you do.

Your post reads as though you wish the community would be as like minded as you, and frankly many of your more recent responses to various threads (while thoughtful and helpful) have reinforced this tone. It's not exactly the easiest thing to do battery and engine work on a Prius when you live in a condo in Hawaii. I will eventually scrap rather than keep nursing my Focus, because eventually Ford will stop making TCM's and my transmission will brick itself. To not be able to work on a car, or to not be able to install your own solar, or to not know how to navigate the technical complexities of miscellaneous computer software and systems does not make anyone less of a frugal individual.

You're holding the community to a higher standard,  perhaps because when you joined the majority of people around here were technical/engineer minded folks who saw a reflection of themselves in Pete and in other FIRE personalities at the time.

But now many of those folks have moved on into the wind. This is okay, but it's not a reason to lament where the forums stand today.

If you are reading this and you do decide to hang around here, don't be angry at the world for having changed in ways that you don't enjoy. Most of us don't have clear and immediate paths to living out in the sticks on a self-sufficient mini solar ranch (I truly respect what you do). That's not a moral failing. But it's incumbent upon you, me, and others who see bullshit where there is bullshit to dole out facepunches.

Perhaps AI will ruin everything, or perhaps we'll collectively wake up and toss aside social media and hyperconnectivity. Your choice to escape from it is your own, and it is valid. But to be angry at others who participate in a system that can be beyond their own control is not a healthy voice to have.

ChpBstrd

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2022, 08:44:12 AM »
@Syonyk I agree with all the issues you cited, but my reaction has been different. I like the MMM forum BECAUSE it looks like some kind of artifact of the 1990s. There are no pop-up ads, sidebar ads, scrolling flashing bullshit, and only a handful of tracking cookies. Even better, it doesn't work very well on a mobile phone. It forces one to slow down, have a seat, and collect one's thoughts. That's why the discourse is so much higher quality here than, say, on Reddit.

You are also correct that people are getting soft. 15% savings rates, $1M houses, streaming subscriptions, and ownership of Teslas (with $50k+ 5-year costs of ownership) are talked about like they are good things. The old ethos of wasting as little as possible, of being a hardcore consumption nonconformist, and generating money in exponentially growing ways has faded away, perhaps due to a lack of fresh blog posts on those subjects by Pete. Similarly, there are a lot of people here in their 40s who are talking about retiring in their 60s, which was never the point.

There's a lot more interesting stuff to talk about now than ever before. Bonds are suddenly yielding something. Inflation is a new complication that demands our attention on the consumption side. There's mortgage arbitrage, how to play defense against a recession, side gig opportunities galore, jobs everywhere, work from home opportunities, and of course How To Not Become A Digital Slave as you brought up. I'd be more interested in this kind of stuff than the chatter about what's playing on Hulu or whether I should upgrade my Iphone 12 to an Iphone 13.

Yet one reaches a certain point of fatigue after facepunching the internet for the 250th time. Resisting popular culture and convincing others to join you is hard. How do you counter-program somebody whose entire life direction is being dictated through an addictive device they can't put down? Yes, I spend a lot of time on the MMM forum, but insights on these meta-questions are worth it to me.

GilesMM

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2022, 08:52:23 AM »
You are in good company with a long list of members who got angry and quit in a huff (or got angry enough to get banned). I believe most of them were also disillusioned millennials.

Fru-Gal

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2022, 08:59:45 AM »
Good rant.

dividendman

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2022, 11:25:03 AM »
There were a couple of threads a while back on "has the forum gone soft?"

The answer is yes. I pointed it out in that thread (and others) and then people got so defensive when I mentioned examples.

There are still nuggets of good info though, especially around investments and a bit around how to save more. I also like the in-depth do-it-yourselfers who lay everything out there, though I haven't done any projects myself.

I'm 40 and retired so I don't imagine I'll be quitting this forum anytime soon since I have ample time for all of the things I want to do.

I agree with you on your tech rant. I worked for many of these megacaps and they way they are productizing humans is crazy. They are also making things as addictive as possible. I wonder if sometime in the future they'll all be sued for damages just like the tobacco giants.

RWD

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2022, 11:52:46 AM »
Really sorry to see you go, but I understand. The forum really was at its best when there were many challenging voices.

The knowledge you brought to the forum has been invaluable. I'm sure I'll be cross-referencing your posts when we start looking into solar panels.

FiveSigmas

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2022, 02:14:09 PM »
So, I think I drop back to my little niche corner, go publish only with my blog for project documentation, and shake loose an awful lot of formerly wasted time to go work in the analog spaces that make up the interesting bits of reality.

I'm sad to see you go -- your posts around here have been a refreshing tug against prevailing winds.  That said, I understand.

Please do keep up with your blog. I really enjoy your deep dives into your varied interests (and I imagine that the pure documentation side must provide you some satisfaction and enjoyment).

GuitarStv

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2022, 02:23:40 PM »
Say 'Hi' to Sol for me in that vast emptiness away from the forum.

Poeirenta

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2022, 02:47:14 PM »
I'll miss having another rural perspective on the forum. To be clear,  I don't mean "rural" as a proxy for "conservative", I mean someone who gets what it's like to live in a place with a lot fewer humans around them. Plus, you know your way around an off grid pv system far better than I know my own!

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big_owl

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2022, 02:47:29 PM »
Cool story. Best of luck.   

Fru-Gal

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2022, 04:53:50 PM »
I should add you’ve helped me rethink a number of things around solar, energy conservation and car maintenance. Pragmatism such as yours is often lacking in frugal and environmental discussions. I like your perspective on having back-up energy sources instead of going all in on one particular modality. Your blog is great and I will definitely spend more time there.

maizefolk

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2022, 05:36:48 PM »
Understand where you are coming from. Are you closing out forums entirely or this one specifically? I think I've seen you around Ars Technica from time time time. Either wa, sorry to be seeing you go, @Syonyk. Have always found your posts fascinating, both the more tech focused stuff and the lifestyle it sounds like you've carved out for yourself and your family over the past decade.

Just Joe

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2022, 09:55:06 PM »
I'll hate to see you go too. I'm spending less time here too when the weather is nice b/c I'm not learning as much as I once did. I've learned so friggin' much here along the way.

We are alot alike. I'm driving a 20+ year old vehicle and doing all the repairs DIY. The cost is so low! DIY house repairs, antique technology. Linux. Etc, etc, etc. I absolutely still see value in swimming against the tides here in the USA of 2022. I hate waste.

I wish we were neighbors.

Do you have any favorite websites and forums that you'll continue to visit that you'd share with us?

Finishing rebuilding the OS on a Macbook OSX Lion tonight so my parents can get another few years out of this lightly used gadget. Linux is not an option for them yet but it does run well on it.

Good luck to you!

Metalcat

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2022, 05:58:11 AM »
Yep, this place has certainly gotten soft.

You can either see that as a good reason to stay or a good reason to go.

It certainly sounds like you still have a lot to say. So, enjoy the break, and maybe we'll see you back again.

fuzzy math

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2022, 08:56:37 AM »
Will miss you @Syonyk ! You might find you get just the right amount of the internets by continuing your blog. Maybe you just need to find the smaller subset of your tribe while you evaluate some of those larger life concerns. I get them too, some days I find the thought of AI or AI + Idiocracy super depressing. Keep doing what you're doing and hopefully you continue to inspire others along the way.


iris lily

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2022, 09:25:11 AM »
I was considering a new post to the Lottery Fantasy thread about this. I made the comment at a recent gathering that the first that would happen if I won the lottery, the very first fucking thing, would be to take my cellphone and toss it right in the trash. Done. The iPad, which serves as my e-reader, would be a tougher thing, but it likely would follow. That fantasy got me thinking about a broader fantasy. I would work to reconstruct the 90s, especially from a tech point of view.

So I get it. And I share your view of how this forum has evolved in a poor direction over the last decade.

If you find a better place, pop back in and tell us. Maybe I have still my Usenet cheatsheet somewhere.

I loved my mid 90s car and feel that is the most luxury that anyone in the world would ever need. Well, except for these back up cameras they’re pretty damn sweet.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 09:43:43 AM by iris lily »

ATtiny85

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2022, 11:06:43 AM »
Well, except for these back up cameras they’re pretty damn sweet.

Yeah, those cameras are right nice. I can’t come up a single benefit of something like power windows, but back up cameras have no downside that comes quickly to mind. Except deteriorating my skills I suppose.

GuitarStv

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2022, 11:11:52 AM »
Well, except for these back up cameras they’re pretty damn sweet.

Yeah, those cameras are right nice. I can’t come up a single benefit of something like power windows, but back up cameras have no downside that comes quickly to mind. Except deteriorating my skills I suppose.

I have a 2005 Corolla - easy to park with no backup camera.  My mom has a 2017 Corolla . . . very, very hard to park without using the backup camera.  The difference?  Visibility out the rear.  Not subtle at all, it's like night and day.

It seems like a great many cars are now being designed to be very difficult to see out of the rear window since they're assuming that the camera will compensate and I don't like it. 

iris lily

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2022, 11:23:27 AM »
Well, except for these back up cameras they’re pretty damn sweet.

Yeah, those cameras are right nice. I can’t come up a single benefit of something like power windows, but back up cameras have no downside that comes quickly to mind. Except deteriorating my skills I suppose.

Yes, deteriorating skills/lazy driver syndrome is a downside, as is “more shit to go wrong “as my dear old dad used to say.

Fru-Gal

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2022, 12:17:28 PM »
Quote
It seems like a great many cars are now being designed to be very difficult to see out of the rear window since they're assuming that the camera will compensate and I don't like it.

100% agree, my 25-year-old car is like the pope mobile, tons of visibility. Hate backup cameras!

Also agree with @iris lily that car tech peaked in the 90s. Having driven cars from the 60s to the 80s, my late 90s car has everything you need (power steering, air con, better handling, fuel economy, indestructibility, OBD2) and it was such a difference over those earlier cars. I never have found that the newer ones are that much improved. Parts for my car are cheap and available. Only thing I wish my car had is ABS but for some reason this particular model didn’t have it.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2022, 01:01:10 PM »
Well, except for these back up cameras they’re pretty damn sweet.

Yeah, those cameras are right nice. I can’t come up a single benefit of something like power windows, but back up cameras have no downside that comes quickly to mind. Except deteriorating my skills I suppose.

Power windows are very nice when you are the driver alone in the car, and you need to open the passenger side window.  I was driving a rental once with no power windows and had to do that - had to unbuckle my seat belt, lean over, roll down the window, interact with the person there, roll up the window, do up my seat belt and leave.  The drivers behind me were not thrilled.  If I had had a bad back or shoulder it would have been worse.

Plus power windows means you can control the back windows, which is important when you have young children in the car.

Yes I appreciate power windows.  I also appreciate cruise control.  And my new car has the backup camera and beeps when a car/pedestrian is close, which is very nice. 

My first car was old enough that it didn't even have seat belts (1970 or earlier Chevy Impala, it was a boat).  There are some things about the new cars I can easily live without, but most of them are nice to have or safer to have.

iris lily

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2022, 01:34:38 PM »
Quote
It seems like a great many cars are now being designed to be very difficult to see out of the rear window since they're assuming that the camera will compensate and I don't like it.

100% agree, my 25-year-old car is like the pope mobile, tons of visibility. Hate backup cameras!

Also agree with @iris lily that car tech peaked in the 90s. Having driven cars from the 60s to the 80s, my late 90s car has everything you need (power steering, air con, better handling, fuel economy, indestructibility, OBD2) and it was such a difference over those earlier cars. I never have found that the newer ones are that much improved. Parts for my car are cheap and available. Only thing I wish my car had is ABS but for some reason this particular model didn’t have it.

Yes, I went from a late 70’s car with automatic NOTHING  to that  luxe mobile circa 1994 with its automatic shift, power steering, power windows, power seat adjustment (nice for when there are two drivers of the same vehicle) plush cotton velveteen seats, cruise control (which I seldom use.)

I went backwards in luxe with the fairly stupid 2009 SUV I now have.

My 2017 sports car has heated seats ( stupid and unnecessary) and complicated digital readouts on the screen that require me to read a manual which I aint’t gonna do. Therefore, I am often unpleasantly surprised by what the car does of its own accord. But it is the one with the backup camera which isnt really necessary with the top down but becomes rather critical with the top up.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 06:33:30 PM by iris lily »

GuitarStv

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2022, 02:32:08 PM »
My dad was pretty sure that power windows were a step too far in the 90s.

"What's wrong with the crank?  People don't have arms now?"

GilesMM

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2022, 04:16:53 PM »


Power windows are very nice when you are the driver alone in the car, and you need to open the passenger side window.  I was driving a rental once with no power windows and had to do that - had to unbuckle my seat belt, lean over, roll down the window, interact with the person there, roll up the window, do up my seat belt and leave.  The drivers behind me were not thrilled.  If I had had a bad back or shoulder it would have been worse.

Plus power windows means you can control the back windows, which is important when you have young children in the car.
..

I grew up with a father who told us that power gizmos in cars (windows, locks, brakes, steering) are "just more junk to break", so we never had them.  We were agog when a neighbor had a suburban with a rear power window.  The old man finally relented on power steering and brakes when he didn't have much choice. But he held out on the power windows and door locks until he couldn't find a reasonable car without them.

I couldn't live without power windows.  The dog sits in the right rear passenger seat (and sometimes her sister behind me) and I have to be able to control the windows for them.  Mostly down on slow city streets. Half way up on back roads. Closed on freeways.

Our cars have rearview cameras.  We back them into parking spots and into the garage daily and it makes it wayyyyy easier to get the car parked exactly where you want it on the first try.  In contrast, I once owned a 234-inch long '76 Cadillac Fleetwood (in emerald green, no less) which took days to park and usually a couple spotters.  Steel bumpers hid a lot of little mistakes.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 06:47:37 PM by GilesMM »

Chaplin

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2022, 05:24:01 PM »
This thread turning into a debate about the pros and cons of power windows might be the most meta thing I've seen in a while. Sorry to see you go Syonk - I always appreciated your point of view and I also miss the forum era where the face-punches were an essential and necessary part of it. They were a necessary counter to the very human tendency to enable poor choices by others because we're basically nice and understanding, and see a bit of ourselves in the people we're enabling.

Fru-Gal

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2022, 06:13:55 PM »
I feel like the meta direction was the least we could do to honor a fallen member.

TreeLeaf

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2022, 06:29:14 PM »
I've never had power windows, or power locks, or a backup camera.

I'm 36 and the first car I have ever had air conditioning in is my current car...which is 16 years old. It has manual locks and windows.

I have noticed that since I have air conditioning now I feel like I must have air conditioning, even though I drove around with no AC for years and years and was just fine.

Perhaps to honor OP we should all spend some time debating if we need cars or if ebikes or road bikes or if el cheapo mountain bike bought at a garage sale is ok for transportation.

GilesMM

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2022, 06:48:43 PM »
I've never had power windows, or power locks, or a backup camera.

I'm 36 and the first car I have ever had air conditioning in is my current car...which is 16 years old. It has manual locks and windows.
...

AC is nice to have in some places and critical in others.  I presume you don't live in Houston, Miami or New Orleans?

Fru-Gal

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2022, 07:00:04 PM »
To honor the OP I definitely agree that cars of any form are not the solution to our environmental woes and we should all be biking as much as possible.

Fru-Gal

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2022, 07:04:10 PM »
My AC went out on my previous high mileage car after we were T-boned and I had to drive a few hours through 110 degree heat a number of times. I remember the first time it was awful. But then a funny thing happened, every time I had to go through that triple degree heat I made sure to drive in the very early morning. I also took the train, which has aircon.

TreeLeaf

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2022, 07:07:13 PM »
I've never had power windows, or power locks, or a backup camera.

I'm 36 and the first car I have ever had air conditioning in is my current car...which is 16 years old. It has manual locks and windows.
...

AC is nice to have in some places and critical in others.  I presume you don't live in Houston, Miami or New Orleans?

I live in Ohio. We don't need AC.

Of course we freeze every winter though, so that's the trade off.

GilesMM

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2022, 07:16:06 PM »
My AC went out on my previous high mileage car after we were T-boned and I had to drive a few hours through 110 degree heat a number of times. I remember the first time it was awful. But then a funny thing happened, every time I had to go through that triple degree heat I made sure to drive in the very early morning. I also took the train, which has aircon.

My AC went out my first summer in Houston so I went to work early and just suffered on the way home. At least we had covered parking.    That same summer my landlord yanked out my window unit AC and announced he was installing central AC. Yay!  Only, there was about a six-week gap between removal and installation. During July-August.  So, I would walk to the bookstore in the evenings (in 95F heat) to stay cool and read.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2022, 09:31:08 PM »
Re car (and house) AC - first of all I am older and it is harder to adjust to extreme temperatures.  Second, in my area summers are hotter and more humid than they used to be.  Even then, people went away for summer vacation to someplace cooler if they could.  Cottages were very popular to escape the city heat.  So I am not surprised at the increase in AC for houses and cars.  I mean, my houses and cars also have heating.

What I really appreciate in cars now is safety features.  Plus when I do want to cool the car fast I can just roll down my window and the right rear window and get nice airflow.  Can't do that with manual windows.   ;-) 

What the forums are good at is examining how much of the new tech in any area is useful and what is basically lifestyle fluff.  And how we can arrange our lives to optimize them.  It isn't really a financial forum anyway, in the basic sense, it is an examine and optimize your life forum.  So it is car use versus other forms of transportation, where to live and what kind of building to live in, how to provide the necessities (home cooking versus take-out and fast food), and on and on.

There is still good stuff here.  To quote Joan Baez, take what you need and leave the rest.  Sorry Syonyk isn't finding much here anymore.

TreeLeaf

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2022, 05:39:28 AM »
What's all this talk about cars? I mean aren't you all biking? And I mean real bikes not those electric Lazy-Boy bikes that you just sit on while a little battery does all the work for you. Jeeze the forums are getting soft ;-).

I guess my point for the OP is that one person's "soft" is another person's "hard" - even "very hard" - and judging their actions without knowing why can seen pretty harsh. TBH I have a barely veiled distain for electric bikes (sorry) over human powered bikes for healthy able bodied people - especially for recreation.  But I think they are a wonderful alternative for others who may not have the ability to ride a non-electric bike and, not knowing someone's situation, I'm not going to call them soft.

I agree with this.

Somewhat ironically the OP would be considered 'soft' on the ERE forums simply because he owns a car...so he may not like those forums also because they are too 'hard' for him. It's all relative.

Everyone's situation is unique and the quickest way to guarantee unhappiness in life is to get incredibly angry and judgmental at everyone who is slightly different than yourself and assume your way is the only way.

Some people outside of FIRE forums even see the entire concept of frugality as an assault on their existence and would be offended by this entire website because the whole idea of thinking or preparing for the future goes against the idea that they should only live for today's enjoyment.

It's not even about right or wrong or altruistic behavior for me. I just prefer to have a happy and peaceful existence. If I got angry and judgmental at everyone who was slightly different than myself this would interfere with my own peace and happiness and enjoyment of life.

So I deliberately try not to judge other people for my own selfish happiness reasons.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 05:51:01 AM by curious_george »

dividendman

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2022, 08:59:06 AM »
What's all this talk about cars? I mean aren't you all biking? And I mean real bikes not those electric Lazy-Boy bikes that you just sit on while a little battery does all the work for you. Jeeze the forums are getting soft ;-).

I guess my point for the OP is that one person's "soft" is another person's "hard" - even "very hard" - and judging their actions without knowing why can seen pretty harsh. TBH I have a barely veiled distain for electric bikes (sorry) over human powered bikes for healthy able bodied people - especially for recreation.  But I think they are a wonderful alternative for others who may not have the ability to ride a non-electric bike and, not knowing someone's situation, I'm not going to call them soft.

I don't know... I get what you're saying that there can be extenuating circumstances of why someone has chosen to be more wasteful, but the OP is making general comments about the forum. I don't think every instance of someone saying "I needed to drive my car down the block to my mailbox because it was raining and my ankle hurt." Is an extenuating circumstance.

I feel like the pendulum has swung, whereas a decade ago we might not have ever looked deeper into a particular situation, we now can't make any comments, even general ones about large populations as the OP did, without someone saying "well their specific situation may have dictated this."

Your situation is unique, just like everyone else. Does that mean everyone now gets a pass on any judgement on wastefulness? Especially here, this forum was built around face punches and doing things to reduce waste and consumerism, at least at first. Now there are multiple threads about how to spend money not on investments and "treating yourself". Can't people treat themselves to a walk in the park or a pick up soccer game instead of the iPhone 14xi with 5 cameras?

I get where the OP is coming from.


Villanelle

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2022, 11:21:09 AM »
What's all this talk about cars? I mean aren't you all biking? And I mean real bikes not those electric Lazy-Boy bikes that you just sit on while a little battery does all the work for you. Jeeze the forums are getting soft ;-).

I guess my point for the OP is that one person's "soft" is another person's "hard" - even "very hard" - and judging their actions without knowing why can seen pretty harsh. TBH I have a barely veiled distain for electric bikes (sorry) over human powered bikes for healthy able bodied people - especially for recreation.  But I think they are a wonderful alternative for others who may not have the ability to ride a non-electric bike and, not knowing someone's situation, I'm not going to call them soft.

I do wish we had more of the less-moderate voices that used to be here.  And I say that as someone who is nowhere near extreme.  But I found it motivated me and caused me to examine a lot more of my own thinking that the current vibe tends to.

I don't think anyone is obligated to post here if it doesn't work for them in some way.  But I also think leaving because they voice has shifted just perpetuates that, so if someone thinks it is a bad thing, staying and even posting more seems like the more sensible approach.  If no one is saying something you think needs to be said, say it.   Again, no one is obligated to do that, but I wish more people would.  The boards would benefit, individual posters would benefit (myself included), and I think maybe even the posters would benefit from the sense of contributing and advancing their values. 


Metalcat

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2022, 12:39:02 PM »
What's all this talk about cars? I mean aren't you all biking? And I mean real bikes not those electric Lazy-Boy bikes that you just sit on while a little battery does all the work for you. Jeeze the forums are getting soft ;-).

I guess my point for the OP is that one person's "soft" is another person's "hard" - even "very hard" - and judging their actions without knowing why can seen pretty harsh. TBH I have a barely veiled distain for electric bikes (sorry) over human powered bikes for healthy able bodied people - especially for recreation.  But I think they are a wonderful alternative for others who may not have the ability to ride a non-electric bike and, not knowing someone's situation, I'm not going to call them soft.

I do wish we had more of the less-moderate voices that used to be here.  And I say that as someone who is nowhere near extreme.  But I found it motivated me and caused me to examine a lot more of my own thinking that the current vibe tends to.

I don't think anyone is obligated to post here if it doesn't work for them in some way.  But I also think leaving because they voice has shifted just perpetuates that, so if someone thinks it is a bad thing, staying and even posting more seems like the more sensible approach.  If no one is saying something you think needs to be said, say it.   Again, no one is obligated to do that, but I wish more people would.  The boards would benefit, individual posters would benefit (myself included), and I think maybe even the posters would benefit from the sense of contributing and advancing their values.

To be fair, no one is obligated to feel this sense of responsibility.

If they're just not enjoying it here, then the wisest choice is to move on.

Villanelle

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2022, 12:59:37 PM »
What's all this talk about cars? I mean aren't you all biking? And I mean real bikes not those electric Lazy-Boy bikes that you just sit on while a little battery does all the work for you. Jeeze the forums are getting soft ;-).

I guess my point for the OP is that one person's "soft" is another person's "hard" - even "very hard" - and judging their actions without knowing why can seen pretty harsh. TBH I have a barely veiled distain for electric bikes (sorry) over human powered bikes for healthy able bodied people - especially for recreation.  But I think they are a wonderful alternative for others who may not have the ability to ride a non-electric bike and, not knowing someone's situation, I'm not going to call them soft.

I do wish we had more of the less-moderate voices that used to be here.  And I say that as someone who is nowhere near extreme.  But I found it motivated me and caused me to examine a lot more of my own thinking that the current vibe tends to.

I don't think anyone is obligated to post here if it doesn't work for them in some way.  But I also think leaving because they voice has shifted just perpetuates that, so if someone thinks it is a bad thing, staying and even posting more seems like the more sensible approach.  If no one is saying something you think needs to be said, say it.   Again, no one is obligated to do that, but I wish more people would.  The boards would benefit, individual posters would benefit (myself included), and I think maybe even the posters would benefit from the sense of contributing and advancing their values.

To be fair, no one is obligated to feel this sense of responsibility.

If they're just not enjoying it here, then the wisest choice is to move on.

Yes, which is why I said, twice, that no one is obligated to do that.  And I didn't even use the term "responsibility" because they definitely aren't responsible for doing it.

Metalcat

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2022, 01:07:19 PM »
What's all this talk about cars? I mean aren't you all biking? And I mean real bikes not those electric Lazy-Boy bikes that you just sit on while a little battery does all the work for you. Jeeze the forums are getting soft ;-).

I guess my point for the OP is that one person's "soft" is another person's "hard" - even "very hard" - and judging their actions without knowing why can seen pretty harsh. TBH I have a barely veiled distain for electric bikes (sorry) over human powered bikes for healthy able bodied people - especially for recreation.  But I think they are a wonderful alternative for others who may not have the ability to ride a non-electric bike and, not knowing someone's situation, I'm not going to call them soft.

I do wish we had more of the less-moderate voices that used to be here.  And I say that as someone who is nowhere near extreme.  But I found it motivated me and caused me to examine a lot more of my own thinking that the current vibe tends to.

I don't think anyone is obligated to post here if it doesn't work for them in some way.  But I also think leaving because they voice has shifted just perpetuates that, so if someone thinks it is a bad thing, staying and even posting more seems like the more sensible approach.  If no one is saying something you think needs to be said, say it.   Again, no one is obligated to do that, but I wish more people would.  The boards would benefit, individual posters would benefit (myself included), and I think maybe even the posters would benefit from the sense of contributing and advancing their values.

To be fair, no one is obligated to feel this sense of responsibility.

If they're just not enjoying it here, then the wisest choice is to move on.

Yes, which is why I said, twice, that no one is obligated to do that.  And I didn't even use the term "responsibility" because they definitely aren't responsible for doing it.

Perhaps I misinterpreted. I got from your post that people should feel a sense of responsibility. Sounds like my interpretation was wrong.

Miss Piggy

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2022, 05:47:13 PM »
I get where the OP is coming from.

Same. There was a thread recently, something about a car purchase decision with an atrocious APR. I really wanted to throw a facepunch, but I thought "Why bother...do people even do that here anymore?" I assumed I would be considered rude, so I didn't reply at all.

electriceagle

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2022, 07:21:21 PM »
Modern phones are just attention vampires - they've been weaponized against us, to make us "eyeballs" to "monetize" with "impressions."  After having collected all of our data, or whatever wasn't nailed down, to attempt to figure out how to best manipulate us to align with the goals of whoever's paying best for that capability.  The ways to interact with them can be reduced to the point that they're not doing anything particularly evil (mostly), and... at that point, what's the point?  It bugs me greatly how hard it is to live without a smartphone these days, and I say that having spent a year trying with KaiOS and a Flip IV.  Would still be using it, but the hardware failed - I could no longer text without constant corrections, and even dialing phone #s was getting erratic as the keypad died.  Texting is still how a lot of stuff is coordinated, so I need something, but... it can live on the counter.

The same goes for modern computers.  Windows 11, as being discussed elsewhere recently, is something resembling a train wreck that obsoleted a whole crapton of perfectly good computers because the OEMs pressured Microsoft.  The requirements are nonsensical on the face in many cases (this processor, well, unless it's a Microsoft Surface that shipped last year with an older one, so that particular system is stlil supported) and you can get around them without any real issues, but it's an OS fundamentally designed to collect your data and deliver ads to you - remember back in the beta when Explorer locked up because of a bad ad blob delivered by Microsoft?  That's how fundamentally tied advertising is to Windows 11.  We're heading for the Idiocracy TV, when a tiny bit of content is locked up in tons of advertising - again, to manipulate our attention and to attempt to make humans into profitably predictable little consumers.  Fuck.  That.

I agree with you that technology and internet services have changed for the worse -- they are no longer designed to help the user; they are designed to trap, traffic, and sell the user.

Fortunately, there are a couple of partial solutions. They attract smart people as users and need smart, motivated people to work on them. The center around Linux and the open source ecosystem. 

For instance, you can toss Windows 11 into the burning pit of fire where it belongs and install Linux. Ubuntu Linux is the easiest for newbies and best supported for the desktop, but other variants such as Red Hat, Debian, and even Slackware have their uses.

The lack of "clean" open source implementations on cellphones and tablets can be said to be the biggest problem. iPhones and Android phones both try to give advertisers better access to your computer than you yourself have, and do their best to lock themselves to the hardware in service of this goal. The 2020s cellphone ecosystem has taken the place of the PC ecosystem in the 90s. It is where most of the work is being done because it is where most of the users are. Its garbage, but its garbage that is too big to ignore.

Please give https://www.whiteboxcellphone.com a look -- people are building their own tablets and phones using Raspberry Pis (admittedly, the current RPi shortage is a problem). These devices can be made to run Google-free Android or switch between it and Linux. Since the hardware is open source, the advertisers and their enablers can't force themselves onto your machine.

Running away sounds nice, but doesn't work unless the (conceptual) place that you run to has a large enough population that large organizations can't afford to ignore them. What happens when you need to go to the DMV (or perform some other necessary function) and the only thing there is a sign that says "All functions can be performed using our app. There will be one teller available between 10 am and noon on Thursdays"?

iris lily

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2022, 07:29:32 PM »
What's all this talk about cars? I mean aren't you all biking? And I mean real bikes not those electric Lazy-Boy bikes that you just sit on while a little battery does all the work for you. Jeeze the forums are getting soft ;-).

I guess my point for the OP is that one person's "soft" is another person's "hard" - even "very hard" - and judging their actions without knowing why can seen pretty harsh. TBH I have a barely veiled distain for electric bikes (sorry) over human powered bikes for healthy able bodied people - especially for recreation.  But I think they are a wonderful alternative for others who may not have the ability to ride a non-electric bike and, not knowing someone's situation, I'm not going to call them soft.

I do wish we had more of the less-moderate voices that used to be here.  And I say that as someone who is nowhere near extreme.  But I found it motivated me and caused me to examine a lot more of my own thinking that the current vibe tends to.

I don't think anyone is obligated to post here if it doesn't work for them in some way.  But I also think leaving because they voice has shifted just perpetuates that, so if someone thinks it is a bad thing, staying and even posting more seems like the more sensible approach.  If no one is saying something you think needs to be said, say it.   Again, no one is obligated to do that, but I wish more people would.  The boards would benefit, individual posters would benefit (myself included), and I think maybe even the posters would benefit from the sense of contributing and advancing their values.

I enjoy the rock ‘n’ roll of face punching and calling out stupid consumeristic behavior. Like I haven’t had my share of stupid behavior? And if/when I was called out on it it did not kill me. I do not require that every forum be a “ safe space. “
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 07:32:46 PM by iris lily »

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: So long. The forum is no longer recognizable.
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2022, 08:00:32 PM »
What's all this talk about cars? I mean aren't you all biking? And I mean real bikes not those electric Lazy-Boy bikes that you just sit on while a little battery does all the work for you. Jeeze the forums are getting soft ;-).

I guess my point for the OP is that one person's "soft" is another person's "hard" - even "very hard" - and judging their actions without knowing why can seen pretty harsh. TBH I have a barely veiled distain for electric bikes (sorry) over human powered bikes for healthy able bodied people - especially for recreation.  But I think they are a wonderful alternative for others who may not have the ability to ride a non-electric bike and, not knowing someone's situation, I'm not going to call them soft.

I do wish we had more of the less-moderate voices that used to be here.  And I say that as someone who is nowhere near extreme.  But I found it motivated me and caused me to examine a lot more of my own thinking that the current vibe tends to.

I don't think anyone is obligated to post here if it doesn't work for them in some way.  But I also think leaving because they voice has shifted just perpetuates that, so if someone thinks it is a bad thing, staying and even posting more seems like the more sensible approach.  If no one is saying something you think needs to be said, say it.   Again, no one is obligated to do that, but I wish more people would.  The boards would benefit, individual posters would benefit (myself included), and I think maybe even the posters would benefit from the sense of contributing and advancing their values.

To be fair, no one is obligated to feel this sense of responsibility.

If they're just not enjoying it here, then the wisest choice is to move on.

Yes, which is why I said, twice, that no one is obligated to do that.  And I didn't even use the term "responsibility" because they definitely aren't responsible for doing it.
I actually really appreciate that you call for it, because I find I have tended to tone myself down from challenging anyone since the forum atmosphere softened, instead offering bland encouragements; earlier today I almost deleted a post where I'd written out a response to a "budget challenge" before instead revising it to say that it was just MY budget & underlining several of the main privileges & quirks that made it possible for me. I don't really feel a responsibility to pose such a challenge, but I find the above statement affirming that it's still welcome & valuable to some.

It leaves me almost wishing that we had a facepunch-friendly subform, like a defined mosh pit for more raucous ideas. But does that obviate the original objective of the wider forum? The balance MMM hit - not a grinding quest for sterile logic but a seeking of joy & beauty in efficiency - was what made his angle on frugality stick for me, & it's become a lot harder to find here (or anywhere, considering I used to be able to simply come here) than it used to be.

Funny that the main blog talked just yesterday about the availability bias of our social bubble: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2022/12/10/the-california-effect/

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!