Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 852236 times)

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14294
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7800 on: July 14, 2019, 03:30:35 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.



Actually, Dabnasty pretty effectively refuted FIREstache's argument with his comments here:


If he only ever criticized women of color, you would have a point there, but he's sent out many tweets about Pelosi and others, who are white Americans, so you can't conclude he's a racist just because he is critical of non-whites as well.  It seems like your primary complaint is that he doesn't cast a wide enough net with every tweet, but that's not very realistic or practical.

I really hope this is cheap and idiotic trolling, because the idea that anyone is disgusting enough to seriously argue that is just deeply depressing.

What do you mean? His sexism is clear evidence that he isn't racist.

Sarcasm aside, it's a bad argument for other reasons as well. If he called them dumb or some other insult then sure, maybe we could chalk it up to sexism, but he told them to go back to their country. This is their country. What else could he have possibly been referring to?

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7801 on: July 14, 2019, 03:42:14 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

If you'd like a better example:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414299/#msg2414299

This point is refuted in various ways over the next page, yet the "average" claim keeps coming up. Other posters asked questions to better understood what he meant by "average" but those were ignored.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7802 on: July 14, 2019, 03:55:46 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

If you'd like a better example:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414299/#msg2414299

This point is refuted in various ways over the next page, yet the "average" claim keeps coming up. Other posters asked questions to better understood what he meant by "average" but those were ignored.

Why would there be a question about what the word average means?  But more importantly, I think the part about the average American missed the point I was trying to make about the senator's claims vs. the reality, and I think this pretty much settled it.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414573/#msg2414573

I thought we put that discussion behind us.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7803 on: July 14, 2019, 04:05:02 PM »
Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

Actually, Dabnasty pretty effectively refuted FIREstache's argument with his comments here:

If nothing I stated was incorrect, then my comment was not refuted, and someone simply disagreed with my opinion.

Also, I didn't ignore it and follow up with a response, and his post was actually in quoting a follow-up post, not directly to me, and despite my opinion not being swayed, I didn't respond after the name-calling directed towards me.  He is welcome to his own opinion.  Hopefully we are all allowed to express differing opinions here without personal attacks.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 04:08:48 PM by FIREstache »

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11681
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7804 on: July 14, 2019, 04:07:19 PM »
Why would there be a question about what the word average means? 

There are 4 "averages", the arithmetic mean, the geometric mean, the median and the mode.  "Average" usually means the arithmetic mean, but can also mean any of the others.  Given the people on this forum, precision of language is expected.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7805 on: July 14, 2019, 04:11:18 PM »
Why would there be a question about what the word average means? 

There are 4 "averages", the arithmetic mean, the geometric mean, the median and the mode.  "Average" usually means the arithmetic mean, but can also mean any of the others.  Given the people on this forum, precision of language is expected.

I use median where it applies.  For average, "an amount that is calculated by adding several numbers together and dividing the total by the original number of things you added together"

Not that it matters at this point, but just so you know.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1155
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7806 on: July 14, 2019, 04:21:35 PM »
Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

Actually, Dabnasty pretty effectively refuted FIREstache's argument with his comments here:

If nothing I stated was incorrect, then my comment was not refuted, and someone simply disagreed with my opinion.

Also, I didn't ignore it and follow up with a response, and his post was actually in quoting a follow-up post, not directly to me, and despite my opinion not being swayed, I didn't respond after the name-calling directed towards me.  He is welcome to his own opinion.  Hopefully we are all allowed to express differing opinions here without personal attacks.

FIREstache you have constantly over and over again shown that you don't know how to conduct a discussion on this forum. Even in this response you seem to not understand how people are refuting your arguments nor what an "opinion" even is.

Here is the general flow of the conversation:

FIREstache: "I believe x"
Anyone else: Well x cannot be true because of evidence a, b, and c
FIREstache: <nothing>

2 pages later

FIREstache: "Well since x is obviously true"
Everyone else: "Hey you never actually responded to anyone's comment and just started repeating the same things."
FIREstache: "Don't kick me out just because I have a different opinion!"

This isn't facebook. This is a place where hopefully we discuss and debate matters. But you don't, you don't engage. Maybe you're not a troll, but the way that you behave in this thread and all the other political off topic ones is exactly how trolls operate. Learn to refute, debate, and think in a conversation. If you're just here to state your opinion and nothing else, then you're not adding to the conversation.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7807 on: July 14, 2019, 04:30:23 PM »
This isn't facebook. This is a place where hopefully we discuss and debate matters. But you don't, you don't engage. Maybe you're not a troll, but the way that you behave in this thread and all the other political off topic ones is exactly how trolls operate. Learn to refute, debate, and think in a conversation. If you're just here to state your opinion and nothing else, then you're not adding to the conversation.

Sorry, but you are stating an opinion, not the facts of what is actually happening in this thread.  The fake dialogue you posted may seem clever to you, but it never happened - a bad generalization using selective memory at best.  It seems the more liberal posters would like to oust a more outspoken conservative poster who has a different opinion and will challenge them on things.

See my post above to see where I'm coming from:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/so-let's-speculate-about-the-future-of-a-full-trump-presidency/msg2416516/#msg2416516

This reminds me of this thread when we unfortunately lost one of our most valuable forum members, who had more conservative views as was discussed:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/a-last-goodbye-to-the-forum/

It seems like anything other than attacking the President of the United States is frowned upon in this thread.  What a crazy world we live in.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 04:41:06 PM by FIREstache »

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 640
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7808 on: July 14, 2019, 04:47:10 PM »
I think I'll take a break from posting to these threads for a while.  Then you won't have to worry as much about someone with an opposite opinion responding.   Good luck and keep an open mind.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4580
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7809 on: July 14, 2019, 04:48:46 PM »
I think I'll take a break from posting to these threads for a while.  Then you won't have to worry as much about someone with an opposite opinion responding.   Good luck and keep an open mind.

Lol

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9712
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7810 on: July 14, 2019, 06:41:12 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

If you'd like a better example:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414299/#msg2414299

This point is refuted in various ways over the next page, yet the "average" claim keeps coming up. Other posters asked questions to better understood what he meant by "average" but those were ignored.
Yes, a very good example of one person saying the sky is blue, the other saying the grass is green, and neither being willing to admit the other has a good point.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7811 on: July 14, 2019, 07:53:29 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

If you'd like a better example:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414299/#msg2414299

This point is refuted in various ways over the next page, yet the "average" claim keeps coming up. Other posters asked questions to better understood what he meant by "average" but those were ignored.
Yes, a very good example of one person saying the sky is blue, the other saying the grass is green, and neither being willing to admit the other has a good point.

I am confused by this. So when it was pointed out that a claim that was made was factually incorrect, with links to supporting evidence, you determined the claim to be factual as well? I mean it was pretty obvious FIREstache knew he posted something factually incorrect when they tried to claim it was no longer important and their point was made. Not arguing in good faith, yeah that’s trolling. You didn’t heed my advice I see. Not good dude, not good.

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9712
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7812 on: July 14, 2019, 08:11:30 PM »
You didn’t heed my advice I see. Not good dude, not good.
I gave your advice the consideration it was due.

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7813 on: July 14, 2019, 08:22:27 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

If you'd like a better example:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414299/#msg2414299

This point is refuted in various ways over the next page, yet the "average" claim keeps coming up. Other posters asked questions to better understood what he meant by "average" but those were ignored.
Yes, a very good example of one person saying the sky is blue, the other saying the grass is green, and neither being willing to admit the other has a good point.

I asked what type of "average" he was referring to and explained that I was asking because there is in fact more than one type of average. As evidenced by his post in this thread he never read or perhaps ignored that point.

I was asking because the arithmetic mean that I thought he was referring to (and he was) made no sense given the context. It led him to the false conclusion that:

It turns out the amount of American Indian ancestry DNA she has in her is within a range that overlaps the amount in an average American, which means she likely has no more American Indian DNA in her than the average American

If you have a small portion of the population with a high percentage of Native American DNA, it pulls the mean up, but the majority of the population can still be well below that average.

Not to mention, the way we (I include myself in this) are discussing genetics would make anyone who works in the field cringe. It's just not that straightforward. Several articles were provided which gave a more in depth explanation of how genetic testing works and what conclusions can be drawn from those tests. All ignored.

And I know all of this is quibbling over details, but the larger point I and clearly others on this forum want to make is that facts matter. Spout off with accusations that aren't true and they're going to get checked.

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9712
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7814 on: July 14, 2019, 09:07:56 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

If you'd like a better example:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414299/#msg2414299

This point is refuted in various ways over the next page, yet the "average" claim keeps coming up. Other posters asked questions to better understood what he meant by "average" but those were ignored.
Yes, a very good example of one person saying the sky is blue, the other saying the grass is green, and neither being willing to admit the other has a good point.

I asked what type of "average" he was referring to and explained that I was asking because there is in fact more than one type of average. As evidenced by his post in this thread he never read or perhaps ignored that point.

I was asking because the arithmetic mean that I thought he was referring to (and he was) made no sense given the context. It led him to the false conclusion that:

It turns out the amount of American Indian ancestry DNA she has in her is within a range that overlaps the amount in an average American, which means she likely has no more American Indian DNA in her than the average American

If you have a small portion of the population with a high percentage of Native American DNA, it pulls the mean up, but the majority of the population can still be well below that average.

Not to mention, the way we (I include myself in this) are discussing genetics would make anyone who works in the field cringe. It's just not that straightforward. Several articles were provided which gave a more in depth explanation of how genetic testing works and what conclusions can be drawn from those tests. All ignored.

And I know all of this is quibbling over details, but the larger point I and clearly others on this forum want to make is that facts matter. Spout off with accusations that aren't true and they're going to get checked.
I agree with all your points about what the average meant, and whether Warren has a higher or lower certain DNA percentage than the majority of the population, and that FIREstache didn't address that.

I also agree with those who say listing her race as "American Indian" was inappropriate.

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7815 on: July 14, 2019, 09:13:34 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

If you'd like a better example:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414299/#msg2414299

This point is refuted in various ways over the next page, yet the "average" claim keeps coming up. Other posters asked questions to better understood what he meant by "average" but those were ignored.
Yes, a very good example of one person saying the sky is blue, the other saying the grass is green, and neither being willing to admit the other has a good point.

I asked what type of "average" he was referring to and explained that I was asking because there is in fact more than one type of average. As evidenced by his post in this thread he never read or perhaps ignored that point.

I was asking because the arithmetic mean that I thought he was referring to (and he was) made no sense given the context. It led him to the false conclusion that:

It turns out the amount of American Indian ancestry DNA she has in her is within a range that overlaps the amount in an average American, which means she likely has no more American Indian DNA in her than the average American

If you have a small portion of the population with a high percentage of Native American DNA, it pulls the mean up, but the majority of the population can still be well below that average.

Not to mention, the way we (I include myself in this) are discussing genetics would make anyone who works in the field cringe. It's just not that straightforward. Several articles were provided which gave a more in depth explanation of how genetic testing works and what conclusions can be drawn from those tests. All ignored.

And I know all of this is quibbling over details, but the larger point I and clearly others on this forum want to make is that facts matter. Spout off with accusations that aren't true and they're going to get checked.
I agree with all your points about what the average meant, and whether Warren has a higher or lower certain DNA percentage than the majority of the population, and that FIREstache didn't address that.

I also agree with those who say listing her race as "American Indian" was inappropriate.

As do I. At no point have I endorsed that decision. I also mentioned in that thread that I'm no fan of Warren. (Not that I know much about her)

This argument is about a specific detail, it's impossible to argue every aspect of the situation at once.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 09:15:27 PM by Dabnasty »

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9712
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7816 on: July 14, 2019, 09:36:42 PM »
I agree with all your points about what the average meant, and whether Warren has a higher or lower certain DNA percentage than the majority of the population, and that FIREstache didn't address that.

I also agree with those who say listing her race as "American Indian" was inappropriate.

As do I. At no point have I endorsed that decision. I also mentioned in that thread that I'm no fan of Warren. (Not that I know much about her)

This argument is about a specific detail, it's impossible to argue every aspect of the situation at once.
I'll drink to that!

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7817 on: July 14, 2019, 09:39:04 PM »
And in Firestache's defense, demanding facts probably doesn't happen often enough in the other direction. This forum leans left, at least on the US scales, so those arguing on the right are typically the minority. I know from experience that being with the minority in a debate can be frustrating. 5 people at once demanding an answer from you? It's hard to keep track of it all.

But at some point, it's laid out so plainly that we have to wonder.


Wexler

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7818 on: July 14, 2019, 10:17:34 PM »
I don't have particularly strong feeling about Elizabeth Warren saying she was a Native American on her bar application, though the inaccuracy that she received some kind of employment boost from it persists:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html

"In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."

Does this fact sway anyone?  I doubt it.  But what really just makes my head spin is that even if you think Elizabeth Warren just flat out lied (I think she just honestly thought she had the heritage but was wrong) she has 5000 more lies left to make before she catches up to Donald Trump on the day he announced his candidacy.   

What doesn't Donald Trump lie about?  If Elizabeth Warren's lie disqualifies her, what do Trump's lies do?  If your single issue is "truthful candidate", you can't vote for Donald Trump.  And if you voted for Donald Trump, then you must be fine with a candidate lying to advance their own interests, so Elizabeth Warren's lies are just a drop in the bucket. 

I refuse to buy into the convenient framing that a liberal must be 100% truthful but a conservative can lie from sun up to sun down. 

I almost provided a list of Trump's lies, but even his supporters don't really need a citation.  They know he's a fucking liar.  They've just gotten better and better at lying to themselves.


 

dang1

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7819 on: July 14, 2019, 11:44:14 PM »
It seems like anything other than attacking the President of the United States is frowned upon in this thread.  What a crazy world we live in.
well, everything that comes out of Trump's mouth, and does, is garbage

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11681
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7820 on: July 15, 2019, 06:35:51 AM »
It seems like anything other than attacking the President of the United States is frowned upon in this thread.  What a crazy world we live in.
well, everything that comes out of Trump's mouth, and does, is garbage

Criticizing your politicians isn't a national sport?  I have had fun criticizing every Canadian Prime Minister, and every provincial premier in provinces I have lived in.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14294
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7821 on: July 15, 2019, 06:51:59 AM »
I agree with all your points about what the average meant, and whether Warren has a higher or lower certain DNA percentage than the majority of the population, and that FIREstache didn't address that.

I also agree with those who say listing her race as "American Indian" was inappropriate.

As do I. At no point have I endorsed that decision. I also mentioned in that thread that I'm no fan of Warren. (Not that I know much about her)

This argument is about a specific detail, it's impossible to argue every aspect of the situation at once.
I'll drink to that!

But then it brings up the question . . . "If that was his cause, who was FIREStache arguing with?".  Near as I can figure, there was nobody in that whole thread who endorsed Warren's decision to list herself as an American Indian (and then voluntarily remove that listing a few years later when she realized her mistake).

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7822 on: July 15, 2019, 07:08:19 AM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.

If you'd like a better example:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/are-social-conservatives-always-wrong/msg2414299/#msg2414299

This point is refuted in various ways over the next page, yet the "average" claim keeps coming up. Other posters asked questions to better understood what he meant by "average" but those were ignored.
Yes, a very good example of one person saying the sky is blue, the other saying the grass is green, and neither being willing to admit the other has a good point.

I asked what type of "average" he was referring to and explained that I was asking because there is in fact more than one type of average. As evidenced by his post in this thread he never read or perhaps ignored that point.

I was asking because the arithmetic mean that I thought he was referring to (and he was) made no sense given the context. It led him to the false conclusion that:

It turns out the amount of American Indian ancestry DNA she has in her is within a range that overlaps the amount in an average American, which means she likely has no more American Indian DNA in her than the average American

If you have a small portion of the population with a high percentage of Native American DNA, it pulls the mean up, but the majority of the population can still be well below that average.

Not to mention, the way we (I include myself in this) are discussing genetics would make anyone who works in the field cringe. It's just not that straightforward. Several articles were provided which gave a more in depth explanation of how genetic testing works and what conclusions can be drawn from those tests. All ignored.

And I know all of this is quibbling over details, but the larger point I and clearly others on this forum want to make is that facts matter. Spout off with accusations that aren't true and they're going to get checked.
I agree with all your points about what the average meant, and whether Warren has a higher or lower certain DNA percentage than the majority of the population, and that FIREstache didn't address that.

I also agree with those who say listing her race as "American Indian" was inappropriate.

Curious if you agree with the assertion that the mass influx of immigrants is because of the “Trump economy,” as it was stated? It was a claim that Trump himself made originally.

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2710
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7823 on: July 15, 2019, 08:16:36 AM »
Why would there be a question about what the word average means? 

There are 4 "averages", the arithmetic mean, the geometric mean, the median and the mode.  "Average" usually means the arithmetic mean, but can also mean any of the others.  Given the people on this forum, precision of language is expected.

You left out the harmonic mean.

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2710
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7824 on: July 15, 2019, 08:25:58 AM »
I don't have particularly strong feeling about Elizabeth Warren saying she was a Native American on her bar application, though the inaccuracy that she received some kind of employment boost from it persists:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html

"In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."

Does this fact sway anyone?  I doubt it.  But what really just makes my head spin is that even if you think Elizabeth Warren just flat out lied (I think she just honestly thought she had the heritage but was wrong) she has 5000 more lies left to make before she catches up to Donald Trump on the day he announced his candidacy.   

What doesn't Donald Trump lie about?  If Elizabeth Warren's lie disqualifies her, what do Trump's lies do?  If your single issue is "truthful candidate", you can't vote for Donald Trump.  And if you voted for Donald Trump, then you must be fine with a candidate lying to advance their own interests, so Elizabeth Warren's lies are just a drop in the bucket. 

I refuse to buy into the convenient framing that a liberal must be 100% truthful but a conservative can lie from sun up to sun down. 

I almost provided a list of Trump's lies, but even his supporters don't really need a citation.  They know he's a fucking liar.  They've just gotten better and better at lying to themselves.

I would say that the conservative position is:

Donald Trump describes narratives within a world that align with our understanding, and his statements are twisted by a media that simply wish to make him look bad.

It's not about lies or facts because the frame of those things has been completely changed within conservative media. They exist to tell a story, to rally conservatives around something epistemologically different than true/false.

Trump's lies are necessary because they're the only thing that can expose the corruption inherent in media.

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1155
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7825 on: July 15, 2019, 08:35:19 AM »
I don't have particularly strong feeling about Elizabeth Warren saying she was a Native American on her bar application, though the inaccuracy that she received some kind of employment boost from it persists:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html

"In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."

Does this fact sway anyone?  I doubt it.  But what really just makes my head spin is that even if you think Elizabeth Warren just flat out lied (I think she just honestly thought she had the heritage but was wrong) she has 5000 more lies left to make before she catches up to Donald Trump on the day he announced his candidacy.   

What doesn't Donald Trump lie about?  If Elizabeth Warren's lie disqualifies her, what do Trump's lies do?  If your single issue is "truthful candidate", you can't vote for Donald Trump.  And if you voted for Donald Trump, then you must be fine with a candidate lying to advance their own interests, so Elizabeth Warren's lies are just a drop in the bucket. 

I refuse to buy into the convenient framing that a liberal must be 100% truthful but a conservative can lie from sun up to sun down. 

I almost provided a list of Trump's lies, but even his supporters don't really need a citation.  They know he's a fucking liar.  They've just gotten better and better at lying to themselves.

I would say that the conservative position is:

Donald Trump describes narratives within a world that align with our understanding, and his statements are twisted by a media that simply wish to make him look bad.

It's not about lies or facts because the frame of those things has been completely changed within conservative media. They exist to tell a story, to rally conservatives around something epistemologically different than true/false.

Trump's lies are necessary because they're the only thing that can expose the corruption inherent in media.

So you see it as a religion? That's comforting.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14294
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7826 on: July 15, 2019, 08:36:15 AM »
So . . . total denial of reality.  At which point, lies are equivalent to truth and therefore unimportant.

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7827 on: July 15, 2019, 09:04:25 AM »
I don't have particularly strong feeling about Elizabeth Warren saying she was a Native American on her bar application, though the inaccuracy that she received some kind of employment boost from it persists:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html

"In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."

Does this fact sway anyone?  I doubt it.  But what really just makes my head spin is that even if you think Elizabeth Warren just flat out lied (I think she just honestly thought she had the heritage but was wrong) she has 5000 more lies left to make before she catches up to Donald Trump on the day he announced his candidacy.   

What doesn't Donald Trump lie about?  If Elizabeth Warren's lie disqualifies her, what do Trump's lies do?  If your single issue is "truthful candidate", you can't vote for Donald Trump.  And if you voted for Donald Trump, then you must be fine with a candidate lying to advance their own interests, so Elizabeth Warren's lies are just a drop in the bucket. 

I refuse to buy into the convenient framing that a liberal must be 100% truthful but a conservative can lie from sun up to sun down. 

I almost provided a list of Trump's lies, but even his supporters don't really need a citation.  They know he's a fucking liar.  They've just gotten better and better at lying to themselves.

I would say that the conservative position is:

Donald Trump describes narratives within a world that align with our understanding, and his statements are twisted by a media that simply wish to make him look bad.

It's not about lies or facts because the frame of those things has been completely changed within conservative media. They exist to tell a story, to rally conservatives around something epistemologically different than true/false.

Trump's lies are necessary because they're the only thing that can expose the corruption inherent in media.

I think this article is more or less in line with your reasoning here:

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/can_the_science_of_lying_explain_trumps_support/success

If someone truly sees the other side as the enemy, they don't care what tactics are used to defeat them. Lies are just another tool in the toolbox.

Now I don't think many of his supporters would admit that this is how they feel, perhaps not even to themselves, but the brain has ways around that. Simply avoiding sources that refute his statements or labeling them as the lie works most of the time. In the cases where it's an obvious lie without even checking the source, they can chalk it up to tactics. After all, Trump is a tactical genius, right?

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4742
  • Location: Avalon
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7828 on: July 15, 2019, 09:17:37 AM »
All of which explains why no Republican in Congress ever read a Trump tweet or listened to a Trump rally or press conference.

Decline and Fall, folks, Decline and Fall.

Barbaebigode

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 164
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7829 on: July 15, 2019, 09:25:41 AM »
I don't have particularly strong feeling about Elizabeth Warren saying she was a Native American on her bar application, though the inaccuracy that she received some kind of employment boost from it persists:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/09/01/did-claiming-native-american-heritage-actually-help-elizabeth-warren-get-ahead-but-complicated/wUZZcrKKEOUv5Spnb7IO0K/story.html

"In the most exhaustive review undertaken of Elizabeth Warren’s professional history, the Globe found clear evidence, in documents and interviews, that her claim to Native American ethnicity was never considered by the Harvard Law faculty, which voted resoundingly to hire her, or by those who hired her to four prior positions at other law schools. At every step of her remarkable rise in the legal profession, the people responsible for hiring her saw her as a white woman."

Does this fact sway anyone?  I doubt it.  But what really just makes my head spin is that even if you think Elizabeth Warren just flat out lied (I think she just honestly thought she had the heritage but was wrong) she has 5000 more lies left to make before she catches up to Donald Trump on the day he announced his candidacy.   

What doesn't Donald Trump lie about?  If Elizabeth Warren's lie disqualifies her, what do Trump's lies do?  If your single issue is "truthful candidate", you can't vote for Donald Trump.  And if you voted for Donald Trump, then you must be fine with a candidate lying to advance their own interests, so Elizabeth Warren's lies are just a drop in the bucket. 

I refuse to buy into the convenient framing that a liberal must be 100% truthful but a conservative can lie from sun up to sun down. 

I almost provided a list of Trump's lies, but even his supporters don't really need a citation.  They know he's a fucking liar.  They've just gotten better and better at lying to themselves.

I would say that the conservative position is:

Donald Trump describes narratives within a world that align with our understanding, and his statements are twisted by a media that simply wish to make him look bad.

It's not about lies or facts because the frame of those things has been completely changed within conservative media. They exist to tell a story, to rally conservatives around something epistemologically different than true/false.

Trump's lies are necessary because they're the only thing that can expose the corruption inherent in media.

I think this article is more or less in line with your reasoning here:

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/can_the_science_of_lying_explain_trumps_support/success

If someone truly sees the other side as the enemy, they don't care what tactics are used to defeat them. Lies are just another tool in the toolbox.

Now I don't think many of his supporters would admit that this is how they feel, perhaps not even to themselves, but the brain has ways around that. Simply avoiding sources that refute his statements or labeling them as the lie works most of the time. In the cases where it's an obvious lie without even checking the source, they can chalk it up to tactics. After all, Trump is a tactical genius, right?

That would explain how in face of overt racism one can rejoice that it caused some infighting among the enemy.

Sometimes I think americans are too touchy about matters of race and racism (intended or not), but telling your countrymen and women to go back to their countries is exactly what racists do.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 10:28:22 AM by Barbaebigode »

talltexan

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2710
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7830 on: July 15, 2019, 09:43:44 AM »
I actually think the last few comments have really moved things forward.

In response to journalism bringing down one of its most successful politicians (Nixon), the conservative movement successfully dismantled journalism by creating this whole alternative ecosystem represented by talk radio and FoxNews. Doing this was basically a response to the fact that reality is so complex that facts could easily be displaced by, ahem, "narrative".

It's a nice biproduct--as viewed by conservatives--that this also stopped the bleeding after a dramatic increase in the size of the state under Presidents Wilson, Roosevelt, and Johnson.

Davnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2101
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7831 on: July 15, 2019, 09:56:04 AM »
All of which explains why no Republican in Congress ever read a Trump tweet or listened to a Trump rally or press conference.

Decline and Fall, folks, Decline and Fall.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but I'll add to my last point that I wasn't referring to members of congress, I was referring to the general population. Members of congress obviously have the resources and knowledge to understand that Trump is lying and their continued support is much more telling of their true nature.

dang1

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 167
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7832 on: July 15, 2019, 10:22:02 AM »
....

I would say that the conservative position is:

Donald Trump describes narratives within a world that align with our understanding, and his statements are twisted by a media that simply wish to make him look bad.

It's not about lies or facts because the frame of those things has been completely changed within conservative media. They exist to tell a story, to rally conservatives around something epistemologically different than true/false.

Trump's lies are necessary because they're the only thing that can expose the corruption inherent in media.

So you see it as a religion? That's comforting.
it's beyond a religion, it's a death cult

Shinplaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1389
  • Location: up in Canada complaining about the weather
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7833 on: July 15, 2019, 10:26:41 AM »
It seems like anything other than attacking the President of the United States is frowned upon in this thread.  What a crazy world we live in.
well, everything that comes out of Trump's mouth, and does, is garbage

Criticizing your politicians isn't a national sport?  I have had fun criticizing every Canadian Prime Minister, and every provincial premier in provinces I have lived in.

And if you claim to live in a democracy, it is not just a right but a duty as a citizen to criticize your leaders.  They (supposedly) work for you, and all employees need feedback as to their job performance.   You can applaud when they do well, but should also call them out when they don't.


nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11081
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7834 on: July 15, 2019, 10:46:16 AM »
It seems like anything other than attacking the President of the United States is frowned upon in this thread.  What a crazy world we live in.
well, everything that comes out of Trump's mouth, and does, is garbage

Criticizing your politicians isn't a national sport?  I have had fun criticizing every Canadian Prime Minister, and every provincial premier in provinces I have lived in.

And if you claim to live in a democracy, it is not just a right but a duty as a citizen to criticize your leaders.  They (supposedly) work for you, and all employees need feedback as to their job performance.   You can applaud when they do well, but should also call them out when they don't.
^this.  I'm sick and tired of people implying I'm not patriotic by opposing many of the actions and policies of the current administration. I want what I believe is in the best, long-term interests of both our country and our planet. FWIW I was critical at times of the Obama, Bush and Clinton administrations as well.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4580
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7835 on: July 15, 2019, 11:01:47 AM »
If you are wondering, like I have been, what those BLATANTLY racist tweets about the four Democratic congresswomen was designed to distract people from...

Here's the lawsuit against Trump and Epstein that one of the Jane Does dropped shortly before the election because she was receiving death threats.

https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/jeffrey-epstein-lawsuit-docs-signed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR147lslsFw1rx2SIHs24ET1CbO7FBLIz7_yxCiyf1ynus6ehv1tZq1cHUw


JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5690
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7836 on: July 15, 2019, 01:00:05 PM »
jesus christ.

And here's our president...

RetiredAt63

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 11681
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7837 on: July 15, 2019, 02:06:34 PM »
It seems like anything other than attacking the President of the United States is frowned upon in this thread.  What a crazy world we live in.
well, everything that comes out of Trump's mouth, and does, is garbage

Criticizing your politicians isn't a national sport?  I have had fun criticizing every Canadian Prime Minister, and every provincial premier in provinces I have lived in.

And if you claim to live in a democracy, it is not just a right but a duty as a citizen to criticize your leaders.  They (supposedly) work for you, and all employees need feedback as to their job performance.   You can applaud when they do well, but should also call them out when they don't.
^this.  I'm sick and tired of people implying I'm not patriotic by opposing many of the actions and policies of the current administration. I want what I believe is in the best, long-term interests of both our country and our planet. FWIW I was critical at times of the Obama, Bush and Clinton administrations as well.

Yes.  The Canadian system has lots of flaws, but at least the official name of the opposition is "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition".  In other words, your job is not to oppose for the sake of opposing, but to make the best government possible happen, because your loyalty is to the country (as embodied by the Queen), not to your party.  Of course, in reality this is more ignored than observed, there is masses of partisan politics.  Governments need criticism from both the opposition and the citizens.

Omy

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 352
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7838 on: July 15, 2019, 02:11:21 PM »
If you are wondering, like I have been, what those BLATANTLY racist tweets about the four Democratic congresswomen was designed to distract people from...

Here's the lawsuit against Trump and Epstein that one of the Jane Does dropped shortly before the election because she was receiving death threats.

https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/jeffrey-epstein-lawsuit-docs-signed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR147lslsFw1rx2SIHs24ET1CbO7FBLIz7_yxCiyf1ynus6ehv1tZq1cHUw

If this lawsuit didn't affect his ability to get elected, why would it concern him now?

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4742
  • Location: Avalon
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7839 on: July 15, 2019, 02:15:58 PM »
  Governments need criticism from both the opposition and the citizens.

Yes.  When all sides agree on a course of action it is quite likely to be wrong - the second Iraq war being a case in point.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7840 on: July 15, 2019, 03:01:25 PM »
jesus christ.

And here's our president...

Eh, he's one person. Just think of all the folks who decided this was ok, chose to support him and continue to support him.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4580
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7841 on: July 15, 2019, 03:34:45 PM »
If you are wondering, like I have been, what those BLATANTLY racist tweets about the four Democratic congresswomen was designed to distract people from...

Here's the lawsuit against Trump and Epstein that one of the Jane Does dropped shortly before the election because she was receiving death threats.

https://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/jeffrey-epstein-lawsuit-docs-signed.pdf?fbclid=IwAR147lslsFw1rx2SIHs24ET1CbO7FBLIz7_yxCiyf1ynus6ehv1tZq1cHUw

If this lawsuit didn't affect his ability to get elected, why would it concern him now?

To be honest, I've been asking that for a while, about lots of stuff that he denies. I don't even know why he bothers lying about the shit he does anymore.

Decades-long reflexes, I guess.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14294
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7842 on: July 15, 2019, 03:48:49 PM »
Gotta learn to grab 'me by the pussy somewhere.  Don't like it?  Go back to the shithole country where you come from.  If you don't leave, Trump has some very fine supporters that he'll introduce you to to help with that.

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5690
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7843 on: July 15, 2019, 03:52:57 PM »
Gotta learn to grab 'me by the pussy somewhere.  Don't like it?  Go back to the shithole country where you come from.  If you don't leave, Trump has some very fine supporters that he'll introduce you to to help with that.

Or go back to the shithole country where you look like you came from, because he's telling people who were born in the US (even with parents born in the US) that they should "go back" to "their countries."

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 14294
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7844 on: July 15, 2019, 04:01:39 PM »
Gotta learn to grab 'me by the pussy somewhere.  Don't like it?  Go back to the shithole country where you come from.  If you don't leave, Trump has some very fine supporters that he'll introduce you to to help with that.

Or go back to the shithole country where you look like you came from, because he's telling people who were born in the US (even with parents born in the US) that they should "go back" to "their countries."

Well yeah.  It's not like he wants his imported wives to go back to where they come from.  He's tired of those troublesome blacks.  And Mexicans.  Muslims.  Gay people too, because fuck them for being weird (getting peed on is normal when it's female prostitutes - amirite guys?).  Native Americans too.  They need to go back to wherever the hell their non-white asses came from.

Not pure blooded Germans like Donald Drumpf of course.  White America Great Again!  Time to get back to those halcyon days of the slave trade.


Samuel

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
  • Location: the slippery slope
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7845 on: July 15, 2019, 04:21:31 PM »
Gotta learn to grab 'me by the pussy somewhere.  Don't like it?  Go back to the shithole country where you come from.  If you don't leave, Trump has some very fine supporters that he'll introduce you to to help with that.

Or go back to the shithole country where you look like you came from, because he's telling people who were born in the US (even with parents born in the US) that they should "go back" to "their countries."

Especially baffling since he's a 3rd generation immigrant* telling that to 2nd generation immigrants*. None of Trump's grandparents were born in the US, only one of his parents was (Obama being the only other President in that situation), and only 1 of his 3 wives was (and the current one likely broke immigration law by working here while on a tourist visa).

AOC should have responded with something to the effect of: "Like Donald Trump my father was born in New York and my mother was an immigrant. Out of love for my country I will volunteer to immigrate to her country of birth if he agrees to do the same."


Edit: *something like that. Gets confusing.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 04:44:38 PM by Samuel »

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5690
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7846 on: July 15, 2019, 04:32:24 PM »
Gotta learn to grab 'me by the pussy somewhere.  Don't like it?  Go back to the shithole country where you come from.  If you don't leave, Trump has some very fine supporters that he'll introduce you to to help with that.

Or go back to the shithole country where you look like you came from, because he's telling people who were born in the US (even with parents born in the US) that they should "go back" to "their countries."

Especially baffling since he's a 3rd generation immigrant telling that to 2nd generation immigrants. None of Trump's grandparents were born in the US, only one of his parents was (Obama being the only other President in that situation), and only 1 of his 3 wives was (and the current one likely broke immigration law by working here while on a tourist visa).

AOC should have responding with something to the effect of: "Like Donald Trump my father was born in New York and my mother was an immigrant. Out of love for my country I will volunteer to immigrate to her country of birth if he agrees to do the same."

AOC's mother was born in Puerto Rico, so she'd be immigrating to the USA...which makes that option even better, lol (just a slight wording change because neither of her parents are immigrants).

FIPurpose

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1155
  • Location: WA
    • FI With Purpose
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7847 on: July 15, 2019, 04:33:07 PM »
Gotta learn to grab 'me by the pussy somewhere.  Don't like it?  Go back to the shithole country where you come from.  If you don't leave, Trump has some very fine supporters that he'll introduce you to to help with that.

Or go back to the shithole country where you look like you came from, because he's telling people who were born in the US (even with parents born in the US) that they should "go back" to "their countries."

Especially baffling since he's a 3rd generation immigrant telling that to 2nd generation immigrants. None of Trump's grandparents were born in the US, only one of his parents was (Obama being the only other President in that situation), and only 1 of his 3 wives was (and the current one likely broke immigration law by working here while on a tourist visa).

AOC should have responding with something to the effect of: "Like Donald Trump my father was born in New York and my mother was an immigrant. Out of love for my country I will volunteer to immigrate to her country of birth if he agrees to do the same."

AOC's mother was born in Puerto Rico, so she'd be immigrating to the USA.

Shh... Trump doesn't know that yet.

Samuel

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 355
  • Location: the slippery slope
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7848 on: July 15, 2019, 04:37:45 PM »
AOC's mother was born in Puerto Rico, so she'd be immigrating to the USA...which makes that option even better, lol (just a slight wording change because neither of her parents are immigrants).

Ha, I forgot that bit too. That's delicious.

And even more pointed: "Like Donald Trump my father was born in New York and my mother was not. Out of love for my country I will volunteer to return to her country of birth if he agrees to do the same."
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 04:46:10 PM by Samuel »