Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 852860 times)

Davnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7750 on: July 12, 2019, 08:54:22 AM »
As an example, here's an article written by Joseph Bast of the Heartland institute in 1998, which I'm surprised is still up on their website:

https://www.heartland.org/publications-resources/publications/july-1998-five-lies-about-tobacco-the-tobacco-bill-wasnt-about-kids

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Several experts (including two who are very anti-smoking) have told me that smoking fewer than seven cigarettes a day does not raise a smoker's risk of lung cancer.

And here's one he co-authored in 2018:

https://www.heartland.org/news-opinion/news/the-ipcc-is-still-wrong-on-climate-change-scientists-prove-it

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Sixteen of 25 identified impacts of fossil fuels are net positive, eight uncertain.  Only one is net negative.  Areas of impact measured include agriculture, air quality, extreme weather events, and human health.

And one more just because it's funny:

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Forcing a transition from fossil fuels to wind and solar power would inflict tremendous economic hardship, reducing world GDP by some 96 percent and plunging the world back to economic conditions last seen in the 1820s and 1830s.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 09:08:10 AM by Dabnasty »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7751 on: July 12, 2019, 09:26:27 AM »
“Doubt is our product, since it is the best means of competing with the ‘body of fact’ that exists in the mind of the general public. It is also a means of establishing controversy.”

Jesus, seeing the tobacco industry (now Republican) policy laid out so bare is unsettling.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7752 on: July 12, 2019, 09:31:30 AM »
I'm presently reading Falter:Has the Human Game Begun to Play Itself Out?
by Bill McKibben.  I would recommend this book to everyone on this thread, it addresses virtually everything we are discussing.  And it is profoundly depressing so far.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7753 on: July 12, 2019, 09:37:56 AM »
Much of the general population is preconditioned to believe the misinformation about climate change. It is FAR easier to think it is a hoax, or not that big of a deal than to actually confront and understand what is a complex, non linear and scary future under climate change. Many of the bad things are going to happen at this point, it is mostly just a question of how severely we fuck things up over the coming decades with impacts to be felt for centuries (barring some tech miracle, which I'm not counting on happening).

Even people I know who are educated on climate change and have the means to make changes still fly a lot. The carbon offset programs (for the small % that actually use them) do actually help, but the programs mostly go to mitigating bad behavior in other places where there is no economic or regulatory incentive to do so. Yes, a carbon offset that is based on installing landfill gas control at a landfill in the Philippines will have a measurable positive effect, but it is not the same as not having the emissions in the first place.

The Pentagon has been clear that climate change presents specific and describable national security threats for going on 20 years. Insurance companies (who foot some of the bill and have to include it in their rate calculations) have understood the impacts for years as well. The only people denying it are those who have financial or political interests in the status quo. It is greed. And they are willing to lie and suppress information to keep things the way they are.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7754 on: July 12, 2019, 09:59:13 AM »
Britain has Project Lifeboat which is how to cope with floods of climate change refugees - it is very secret, you will not find it online.  I heard about it in a presentation by an investigative reporter several years ago.

The US is large enough that climate change refugees from Central and South America will get stopped, but I wonder what Canada will do about the flood of American climate change refugees down the road?  Maybe we need a wall?  We are not going to be in great shape ourselves.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7755 on: July 12, 2019, 04:58:48 PM »
Lots of farmers in the Midwest experienced global climate change effects when they couldn't plant corn or soybeans in late May, early June, because of the extreme wet weather. The weather was unlike any had ever seen in the 50 years they'd been farming.

geekette

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7756 on: July 12, 2019, 05:50:43 PM »
Temp and precip graphs by county (in the US), and how it's changed in the last 100 years or so. 

Annual US Climate Stripes

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7757 on: July 12, 2019, 06:14:05 PM »
Much of the general population is preconditioned to believe the misinformation about climate change. It is FAR easier to think it is a hoax, or not that big of a deal than to actually confront and understand what is a complex, non linear and scary future under climate change.
The issue is, rather, "well okay if that's true... what do I do about it?"

The most immediate impact anyone can have is to consume less. Drive less, use less gas and electricity, buy less junk you'll just throw away in a few months or years anyway. Other stuff like solar panels and electric vehicles or hyperloops or whatever simply can't have the magnitude of impact of: consume less. Now, once everyone is consuming less, the other stuff will start to matter. But until then it's majoring in the minors.

But as people on a frugality forum know, the message "consume less" goes against the whole culture of the West. It's not a popular message, and it's also not popular amongst those speaking most fervently about climate change. This is because, as much as we like to make noise about ideological divides, a strong divide across the West is class. And the greenies are typically upper middle class, so they like their flights and shiny cars and piles of junk to buy.

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Even people I know who are educated on climate change and have the means to make changes still fly a lot.
Indeed. I am just reading a book called 2040, about changes the authour would like to see. He talks about going all over the world to learn about things, he'd mention if he were sailing or something so he must have been flying. Flying to a climate change conference is like hosting an abolitionists' conference at a slave plantation.

If actions speak louder than words, then even most greenies are climate change denialists.

FIPurpose

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7758 on: July 12, 2019, 08:02:26 PM »
Much of the general population is preconditioned to believe the misinformation about climate change. It is FAR easier to think it is a hoax, or not that big of a deal than to actually confront and understand what is a complex, non linear and scary future under climate change.
The issue is, rather, "well okay if that's true... what do I do about it?"

The most immediate impact anyone can have is to consume less. Drive less, use less gas and electricity, buy less junk you'll just throw away in a few months or years anyway. Other stuff like solar panels and electric vehicles or hyperloops or whatever simply can't have the magnitude of impact of: consume less. Now, once everyone is consuming less, the other stuff will start to matter. But until then it's majoring in the minors.

But as people on a frugality forum know, the message "consume less" goes against the whole culture of the West. It's not a popular message, and it's also not popular amongst those speaking most fervently about climate change. This is because, as much as we like to make noise about ideological divides, a strong divide across the West is class. And the greenies are typically upper middle class, so they like their flights and shiny cars and piles of junk to buy.

Quote
Even people I know who are educated on climate change and have the means to make changes still fly a lot.
Indeed. I am just reading a book called 2040, about changes the authour would like to see. He talks about going all over the world to learn about things, he'd mention if he were sailing or something so he must have been flying. Flying to a climate change conference is like hosting an abolitionists' conference at a slave plantation.

If actions speak louder than words, then even most greenies are climate change denialists.

On that one I disagree. Hyperloop has the potential to easily replace 60% of flying. For the Missouri route that they are currently doing a feasibility study on right now, they think they can get the route from St. Louis - Kansas City to be faster and cheaper than driving. No doubt cutting 60-80% of cars off the road.

You can always consume less, but there are serious investments that our society has to start making now in order to make these decisions obvious to make. People will stop driving when it's stupid to drive. People will stop flying when it's cheaper and faster to do something else.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7759 on: July 12, 2019, 08:17:41 PM »
There may be serious investments and large infrastructure which needs to be done and built, but you or I can't do anything about that as individuals. I am now answering what are the global long-lasting solutions, I am answering why people are climate change deniers in word (like conservatives) or deed (like most greenies) - it's because as an individual, what should I do?

And the only answer for an individual is "consume less", which in the modern West goes down about as well as eating bacon at Shabbat dinner.

FIPurpose

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7760 on: July 12, 2019, 08:53:25 PM »
There may be serious investments and large infrastructure which needs to be done and built, but you or I can't do anything about that as individuals. I am now answering what are the global long-lasting solutions, I am answering why people are climate change deniers in word (like conservatives) or deed (like most greenies) - it's because as an individual, what should I do?

And the only answer for an individual is "consume less", which in the modern West goes down about as well as eating bacon at Shabbat dinner.

Yeah saying people flying to a climate conference are hypocrites is like saying that it's hypocritical to use solar panels because they were fabricated with oil. Individuals that are capable of making big changes absolutely should be making those investments and flying to international conferences.

People flying for fun on the other hand... yes you're right.

LennStar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7761 on: July 13, 2019, 12:14:35 AM »
There may be serious investments and large infrastructure which needs to be done and built, but you or I can't do anything about that as individuals. I am now answering what are the global long-lasting solutions, I am answering why people are climate change deniers in word (like conservatives) or deed (like most greenies) - it's because as an individual, what should I do?

And the only answer for an individual is "consume less", which in the modern West goes down about as well as eating bacon at Shabbat dinner.

Yeah saying people flying to a climate conference are hypocrites is like saying that it's hypocritical to use solar panels because they were fabricated with oil. Individuals that are capable of making big changes absolutely should be making those investments and flying to international conferences.

People flying for fun on the other hand... yes you're right.

Not to mention that buying a boat and hire a crew for weeks of sailing there surely produces more CO2. 

What really needs to be stopped are short range overland flights. Most energy is spend when taking off. There are generally trains connected to the aiports used. It is not even faster in many cases. Just cheaper because airplanes enjoy heavy taxpayer subventions.
At a short distance fly (like 300 miles) an airplane uses 4 times as much for taking off and gaining hight as the actual distance costs.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7762 on: July 13, 2019, 08:49:54 AM »
But we certainly have the technology for some of these meetings to be video teleconferenced.  That would reduce emissions from the travel.

FIPurpose

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7763 on: July 13, 2019, 08:55:17 AM »
But we certainly have the technology for some of these meetings to be video teleconferenced.  That would reduce emissions from the travel.

Maybe some, but the work that happens in these conferences especially the ones attended by country leaders is not at the meetings. It's what happens around the meetings. Attending is the only way to have one-off conversations and asides with other leaders. That just doesn't happen over computer.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7764 on: July 13, 2019, 09:10:58 AM »
Much of the general population is preconditioned to believe the misinformation about climate change. It is FAR easier to think it is a hoax, or not that big of a deal than to actually confront and understand what is a complex, non linear and scary future under climate change.
The issue is, rather, "well okay if that's true... what do I do about it?"

The most immediate impact anyone can have is to consume less. Drive less, use less gas and electricity, buy less junk you'll just throw away in a few months or years anyway. Other stuff like solar panels and electric vehicles or hyperloops or whatever simply can't have the magnitude of impact of: consume less. Now, once everyone is consuming less, the other stuff will start to matter. But until then it's majoring in the minors.

But as people on a frugality forum know, the message "consume less" goes against the whole culture of the West. It's not a popular message, and it's also not popular amongst those speaking most fervently about climate change. This is because, as much as we like to make noise about ideological divides, a strong divide across the West is class. And the greenies are typically upper middle class, so they like their flights and shiny cars and piles of junk to buy.

Quote
Even people I know who are educated on climate change and have the means to make changes still fly a lot.
Indeed. I am just reading a book called 2040, about changes the authour would like to see. He talks about going all over the world to learn about things, he'd mention if he were sailing or something so he must have been flying. Flying to a climate change conference is like hosting an abolitionists' conference at a slave plantation.

If actions speak louder than words, then even most greenies are climate change denialists.

That's true.  But it's easier for people to just complain about Trump and whine about the government not doing enough, while absolving themselves of all responsibility.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7765 on: July 13, 2019, 09:31:22 AM »
Much of the general population is preconditioned to believe the misinformation about climate change. It is FAR easier to think it is a hoax, or not that big of a deal than to actually confront and understand what is a complex, non linear and scary future under climate change.
The issue is, rather, "well okay if that's true... what do I do about it?"

The most immediate impact anyone can have is to consume less. Drive less, use less gas and electricity, buy less junk you'll just throw away in a few months or years anyway. Other stuff like solar panels and electric vehicles or hyperloops or whatever simply can't have the magnitude of impact of: consume less. Now, once everyone is consuming less, the other stuff will start to matter. But until then it's majoring in the minors.

But as people on a frugality forum know, the message "consume less" goes against the whole culture of the West. It's not a popular message, and it's also not popular amongst those speaking most fervently about climate change. This is because, as much as we like to make noise about ideological divides, a strong divide across the West is class. And the greenies are typically upper middle class, so they like their flights and shiny cars and piles of junk to buy.

Quote
Even people I know who are educated on climate change and have the means to make changes still fly a lot.
Indeed. I am just reading a book called 2040, about changes the authour would like to see. He talks about going all over the world to learn about things, he'd mention if he were sailing or something so he must have been flying. Flying to a climate change conference is like hosting an abolitionists' conference at a slave plantation.

If actions speak louder than words, then even most greenies are climate change denialists.

That's true.  But it's easier for people to just complain about Trump and whine about the government not doing enough, while absolving themselves of all responsibility.

Anecdotal but the only folks I know who absolve themselves are the ones who deny climate change is happening. Those of us who aren't science deniers understand we are contributing to it as well. There are threads about things many of us do trying to limit our impact. We can all make small changes and most of us certainly are. I guess it's just easier for you to complain about those people though absolving yourself of all responsibility of trying to educate yourself. How's that for irony?

People are free to criticize the government. In fact they are doing more (I fully 100% support this case):
https://www.ourchildrenstrust.org/juliana-v-us

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7766 on: July 13, 2019, 10:21:13 AM »
Much of the general population is preconditioned to believe the misinformation about climate change. It is FAR easier to think it is a hoax, or not that big of a deal than to actually confront and understand what is a complex, non linear and scary future under climate change.
The issue is, rather, "well okay if that's true... what do I do about it?"

The most immediate impact anyone can have is to consume less. Drive less, use less gas and electricity, buy less junk you'll just throw away in a few months or years anyway. Other stuff like solar panels and electric vehicles or hyperloops or whatever simply can't have the magnitude of impact of: consume less. Now, once everyone is consuming less, the other stuff will start to matter. But until then it's majoring in the minors.

But as people on a frugality forum know, the message "consume less" goes against the whole culture of the West. It's not a popular message, and it's also not popular amongst those speaking most fervently about climate change. This is because, as much as we like to make noise about ideological divides, a strong divide across the West is class. And the greenies are typically upper middle class, so they like their flights and shiny cars and piles of junk to buy.

Quote
Even people I know who are educated on climate change and have the means to make changes still fly a lot.
Indeed. I am just reading a book called 2040, about changes the authour would like to see. He talks about going all over the world to learn about things, he'd mention if he were sailing or something so he must have been flying. Flying to a climate change conference is like hosting an abolitionists' conference at a slave plantation.

If actions speak louder than words, then even most greenies are climate change denialists.

That's true.  But it's easier for people to just complain about Trump and whine about the government not doing enough, while absolving themselves of all responsibility.

Anecdotal but the only folks I know who absolve themselves are the ones who deny climate change is happening. Those of us who aren't science deniers understand we are contributing to it as well. There are threads about things many of us do trying to limit our impact. We can all make small changes and most of us certainly are. I guess it's just easier for you to complain about those people though absolving yourself of all responsibility of trying to educate yourself. How's that for irony?

I was responding to Kyle.  Apparently you didn't read his post.

And I bet I contribute to climate change far less than you or most people.  So who needs educated here?  LOL
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 10:23:21 AM by FIREstache »

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7767 on: July 13, 2019, 10:41:58 AM »
Much of the general population is preconditioned to believe the misinformation about climate change. It is FAR easier to think it is a hoax, or not that big of a deal than to actually confront and understand what is a complex, non linear and scary future under climate change.
The issue is, rather, "well okay if that's true... what do I do about it?"

The most immediate impact anyone can have is to consume less. Drive less, use less gas and electricity, buy less junk you'll just throw away in a few months or years anyway. Other stuff like solar panels and electric vehicles or hyperloops or whatever simply can't have the magnitude of impact of: consume less. Now, once everyone is consuming less, the other stuff will start to matter. But until then it's majoring in the minors.

But as people on a frugality forum know, the message "consume less" goes against the whole culture of the West. It's not a popular message, and it's also not popular amongst those speaking most fervently about climate change. This is because, as much as we like to make noise about ideological divides, a strong divide across the West is class. And the greenies are typically upper middle class, so they like their flights and shiny cars and piles of junk to buy.

Quote
Even people I know who are educated on climate change and have the means to make changes still fly a lot.
Indeed. I am just reading a book called 2040, about changes the authour would like to see. He talks about going all over the world to learn about things, he'd mention if he were sailing or something so he must have been flying. Flying to a climate change conference is like hosting an abolitionists' conference at a slave plantation.

If actions speak louder than words, then even most greenies are climate change denialists.

That's true.  But it's easier for people to just complain about Trump and whine about the government not doing enough, while absolving themselves of all responsibility.

Anecdotal but the only folks I know who absolve themselves are the ones who deny climate change is happening. Those of us who aren't science deniers understand we are contributing to it as well. There are threads about things many of us do trying to limit our impact. We can all make small changes and most of us certainly are. I guess it's just easier for you to complain about those people though absolving yourself of all responsibility of trying to educate yourself. How's that for irony?

I was responding to Kyle.  Apparently you didn't read his post.

And I bet I contribute to climate change far less than you or most people.  So who needs educated here?  LOL

Sure I read his post. Like I said, educate yourself. You keep making baseless assumptions. Good for you if you have a small environmental impact. I have no desire to engage in” I’m better than you” childish pissing contest. I’m a bit too old and mature.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7768 on: July 14, 2019, 09:28:16 AM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692


Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7769 on: July 14, 2019, 10:21:08 AM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

Racist tweet from a racist president.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7770 on: July 14, 2019, 12:35:51 PM »
Much of the general population is preconditioned to believe the misinformation about climate change. It is FAR easier to think it is a hoax, or not that big of a deal than to actually confront and understand what is a complex, non linear and scary future under climate change.
The issue is, rather, "well okay if that's true... what do I do about it?"

The most immediate impact anyone can have is to consume less. Drive less, use less gas and electricity, buy less junk you'll just throw away in a few months or years anyway. Other stuff like solar panels and electric vehicles or hyperloops or whatever simply can't have the magnitude of impact of: consume less. Now, once everyone is consuming less, the other stuff will start to matter. But until then it's majoring in the minors.

But as people on a frugality forum know, the message "consume less" goes against the whole culture of the West. It's not a popular message, and it's also not popular amongst those speaking most fervently about climate change. This is because, as much as we like to make noise about ideological divides, a strong divide across the West is class. And the greenies are typically upper middle class, so they like their flights and shiny cars and piles of junk to buy.

Quote
Even people I know who are educated on climate change and have the means to make changes still fly a lot.
Indeed. I am just reading a book called 2040, about changes the authour would like to see. He talks about going all over the world to learn about things, he'd mention if he were sailing or something so he must have been flying. Flying to a climate change conference is like hosting an abolitionists' conference at a slave plantation.

If actions speak louder than words, then even most greenies are climate change denialists.

That's true.  But it's easier for people to just complain about Trump and whine about the government not doing enough, while absolving themselves of all responsibility.

Anecdotal but the only folks I know who absolve themselves are the ones who deny climate change is happening. Those of us who aren't science deniers understand we are contributing to it as well. There are threads about things many of us do trying to limit our impact. We can all make small changes and most of us certainly are. I guess it's just easier for you to complain about those people though absolving yourself of all responsibility of trying to educate yourself. How's that for irony?

I was responding to Kyle.  Apparently you didn't read his post.

And I bet I contribute to climate change far less than you or most people.  So who needs educated here?  LOL

Sure I read his post. Like I said, educate yourself. You keep making baseless assumptions. Good for you if you have a small environmental impact. I have no desire to engage in” I’m better than you” childish pissing contest. I’m a bit too old and mature.

LOL.  If you're reading, then you're still making false assumptions, because you made assumptions that I am not educated on climate change, but it's old news to me, way before I ever read the MMM forum.  And you simply posting on this forum about it doesn't mean you are taking personal responsibility.  At least I have been, so I'm trying to set an example for those like you to follow.  I won't bother giving my opinion on your maturity, but I would suggest taking a look at yourself before criticizing others.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7771 on: July 14, 2019, 12:42:31 PM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

There's not anything racist there.  I suspect it's because of their often displayed anti-American rhetoric, not anything to do with their color.  At least one of them was born in another country, so there's nothing racist in stating that fact.

Kudos to Trump on the ICE raids... we need to uphold the rule of law despite a few inconveniences it may bring.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 12:46:59 PM by FIREstache »

OtherJen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7772 on: July 14, 2019, 12:49:58 PM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

There's not anything racist there.  I suspect it's because of their often displayed anti-American rhetoric, not anything to do with their color.  At least one of them was born in another country, so there's nothing racist in stating that fact.


They're all women of color, and all but one was born on US soil. Trump started the Obama birther nonsense. This follows his pattern. Don't kid yourself that he isn't a racist.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7773 on: July 14, 2019, 12:54:14 PM »
At least one of them was born in another country....
...all but one was born on US soil.
Good to see that you agree with each other. ;)

OtherJen

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7774 on: July 14, 2019, 12:56:08 PM »
At least one of them was born in another country....
...all but one was born on US soil.
Good to see that you agree with each other. ;)

Not funny to me. We agree on very little, apparently. Very different concepts of morality and justice.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7775 on: July 14, 2019, 01:05:58 PM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

There's not anything racist there.  I suspect it's because of their often displayed anti-American rhetoric, not anything to do with their color.  At least one of them was born in another country, so there's nothing racist in stating that fact.


They're all women of color, and all but one was born on US soil. Trump started the Obama birther nonsense. This follows his pattern. Don't kid yourself that he isn't a racist.

If he only ever criticized women of color, you would have a point there, but he's sent out many tweets about Pelosi and others, who are white Americans, so you can't conclude he's a racist just because he is critical of non-whites as well.  It seems like your primary complaint is that he doesn't cast a wide enough net with every tweet, but that's not very realistic or practical.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7776 on: July 14, 2019, 01:06:55 PM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

There's not anything racist there.  I suspect it's because of their often displayed anti-American rhetoric, not anything to do with their color.  At least one of them was born in another country, so there's nothing racist in stating that fact.


They're all women of color, and all but one was born on US soil. Trump started the Obama birther nonsense. This follows his pattern. Don't kid yourself that he isn't a racist.

If he only ever criticized women of color, you would have a point there, but he's sent out many tweets about Pelosi and others, who are white Americans, so you can't conclude he's a racist just because he is critical of non-whites as well.  It seems like your primary complaint is that he doesn't cast a wide enough net with every tweet, but that's not very realistic or practical.

He hasn't told Pelosi to go back home, and she has a funny foreign name.


Oh, she's white.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7777 on: July 14, 2019, 01:40:04 PM »
Quote
So interesting to see “Progressive” Democrat Congresswomen, who originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe, the worst, most corrupt and inept anywhere in the world (if they even have a functioning government at all), now loudly......

....and viciously telling the people of the United States, the greatest and most powerful Nation on earth, how our government is to be run. Why don’t they go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came. Then come back and show us how....

....it is done. These places need your help badly, you can’t leave fast enough. I’m sure that Nancy Pelosi would be very happy to quickly work out free travel arrangements!
- https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1150381394234941448



Certainly keeping in line with calling African nations 'shithole countries', claiming that Obama wasn't a real American, saying that everyone in Haiti has AIDS, not renting to black people in New York, advocating for the death sentence for 5 black kids wrongly accused of rape, etc.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7778 on: July 14, 2019, 01:44:15 PM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

There's not anything racist there.  I suspect it's because of their often displayed anti-American rhetoric, not anything to do with their color.  At least one of them was born in another country, so there's nothing racist in stating that fact.

Kudos to Trump on the ICE raids... we need to uphold the rule of law despite a few inconveniences it may bring.
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
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runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7779 on: July 14, 2019, 01:47:48 PM »

If he only ever criticized women of color, you would have a point there, but he's sent out many tweets about Pelosi and others, who are white Americans, so you can't conclude he's a racist just because he is critical of non-whites as well.  It seems like your primary complaint is that he doesn't cast a wide enough net with every tweet, but that's not very realistic or practical.

I really hope this is cheap and idiotic trolling, because the idea that anyone is disgusting enough to seriously argue that is just deeply depressing.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 01:49:24 PM by runbikerun »

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7780 on: July 14, 2019, 01:48:23 PM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

My theory is that Trump does this to yank people's chains, and, to amuse his base.

Watching the Dem women beat each other up is fun. Pass the popcorn.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 01:51:18 PM by KBecks »

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7781 on: July 14, 2019, 01:53:00 PM »
My theory is that Trump does this to yank people's chains, and, to amuse his base.

Watching the Dem women beat each other up is fun. Pass the popcorn.

It takes a certain attitude to watch the man who should be representing your nation racially abuse elected officials, and to find it amusing.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7782 on: July 14, 2019, 02:00:15 PM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

There's not anything racist there.  I suspect it's because of their often displayed anti-American rhetoric, not anything to do with their color.  At least one of them was born in another country, so there's nothing racist in stating that fact.

Kudos to Trump on the ICE raids... we need to uphold the rule of law despite a few inconveniences it may bring.
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?

Yes. You may not have seen many of their posts reported because they've more or less kept it civil, but responding while completely ignoring the content of previous posters is their standard. Bringing up divisive issue that no one else was discussing is pretty common too.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7783 on: July 14, 2019, 02:02:16 PM »
Trump tells congresswomen to go back to the countries they came from. Apparently, he does not consider them to be “real” American citizens.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/14/trump-congress-go-back-where-they-came-from-1415692

There's not anything racist there.  I suspect it's because of their often displayed anti-American rhetoric, not anything to do with their color.  At least one of them was born in another country, so there's nothing racist in stating that fact.

Kudos to Trump on the ICE raids... we need to uphold the rule of law despite a few inconveniences it may bring.
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?

Did you mean me or the person I responded to?  Definitely not me, although I differ in opinion than some others here, so those particular people may get stirred up, but my intention is only to voice my opinion on what is being discussed.  I'm also not the one who starts any of these threads or brings up any of these these topics and usually avoid much political discussion, but I unfortunately have gotten sucked into some of the discussion before bowing out.  Some who have differing opinions than me would like to censor my comments, but there are others with a more conservative viewpoint who agree with me to show some semblance of balance.  As someone else said, I try to keep it civil despite some of the name-calling and attacks that I've been on the receiving end of - I try to just ignore those posts rather than lowering myself to their level.  I enjoy the MMM forum in general and didn't come here for the politics.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 02:43:13 PM by FIREstache »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7784 on: July 14, 2019, 02:02:50 PM »
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
If by "troll" you mean state things from a different, but still defensible, perspective than many other posters have, yes.

KBecks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7785 on: July 14, 2019, 02:04:05 PM »
My theory is that Trump does this to yank people's chains, and, to amuse his base.

Watching the Dem women beat each other up is fun. Pass the popcorn.

It takes a certain attitude to watch the man who should be representing your nation racially abuse elected officials, and to find it amusing.

The funny part is watching the liberal women not getting along.  Well done, ladies.  Now Trump has helped Pelosi move to support the extremists.

Trump is reporting 94% approval among Republicans. (I do not know his source.) Hopefully that means that some of the never-Trumpers have seen the light.  AOC brings Republicans together.

Here's a Maureen Dowd piece in defense of Nancy Pelosi:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/13/opinion/sunday/scaling-wokeback-mountain.html

Note the photo caption:  AOC could become Republicans' not-so-secret weapon in 2020.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 02:16:14 PM by KBecks »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7786 on: July 14, 2019, 02:07:19 PM »

If he only ever criticized women of color, you would have a point there, but he's sent out many tweets about Pelosi and others, who are white Americans, so you can't conclude he's a racist just because he is critical of non-whites as well.  It seems like your primary complaint is that he doesn't cast a wide enough net with every tweet, but that's not very realistic or practical.

I really hope this is cheap and idiotic trolling, because the idea that anyone is disgusting enough to seriously argue that is just deeply depressing.

What do you mean? His sexism is clear evidence that he isn't racist.

Sarcasm aside, it's a bad argument for other reasons as well. If he called them dumb or some other insult then sure, maybe we could chalk it up to sexism, but he told them to go back to their country. This is their country. What else could he have possibly been referring to?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 02:12:30 PM by Dabnasty »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7787 on: July 14, 2019, 02:11:26 PM »
My theory is that Trump does this to yank people's chains, and, to amuse his base.

Watching the Dem women beat each other up is fun. Pass the popcorn.

It takes a certain attitude to watch the man who should be representing your nation racially abuse elected officials, and to find it amusing.

The funny part is watching the liberal women not getting along.  Well done, ladies.  Now Trump has helped Pelosi move to support the extremists.

Trump is reporting 94% approval among Republicans. (I do not know his source.) Hopefully that means that some of the never-Trumpers have seen the light.  AOC brings Republicans together.

94%!  That is amazing.  I read that somewhere, but I think it was in a Trump tweet, and I didn't verify it.

Davnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7788 on: July 14, 2019, 02:17:44 PM »
My theory is that Trump does this to yank people's chains, and, to amuse his base.

Watching the Dem women beat each other up is fun. Pass the popcorn.

It takes a certain attitude to watch the man who should be representing your nation racially abuse elected officials, and to find it amusing.

The funny part is watching the liberal women not getting along.  Well done, ladies.  Now Trump has helped Pelosi move to support the extremists.

Trump is reporting 94% approval among Republicans. (I do not know his source.) Hopefully that means that some of the never-Trumpers have seen the light.  AOC brings Republicans together.

94%!  That is amazing.  I read that somewhere, but I think it was in a Trump tweet, and I didn't verify it.

This explains a lot

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7789 on: July 14, 2019, 02:21:54 PM »
My theory is that Trump does this to yank people's chains, and, to amuse his base.

Watching the Dem women beat each other up is fun. Pass the popcorn.

It takes a certain attitude to watch the man who should be representing your nation racially abuse elected officials, and to find it amusing.

The funny part is watching the liberal women not getting along.  Well done, ladies.  Now Trump has helped Pelosi move to support the extremists.

Trump is reporting 94% approval among Republicans. (I do not know his source.) Hopefully that means that some of the never-Trumpers have seen the light.  AOC brings Republicans together.

94%!  That is amazing.  I read that somewhere, but I think it was in a Trump tweet, and I didn't verify it.

This explains a lot

Gtrsteve linked to Trump's twitter earlier - can't say I normally follow anyone's tweets.

runbikerun

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7790 on: July 14, 2019, 02:23:30 PM »
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7791 on: July 14, 2019, 02:53:28 PM »
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
If by "troll" you mean state things from a different, but still defensible, perspective than many other posters have, yes.

Lies are not defensible. I highly advise you dig a bit deeper about who you are trying to defend. It doesn’t look good for you.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7792 on: July 14, 2019, 02:58:33 PM »
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
If by "troll" you mean state things from a different, but still defensible, perspective than many other posters have, yes.

Lies are not defensible. I highly advise you dig a bit deeper about who you are trying to defend. It doesn’t look good for you.

You really shouldn't call someone a liar simply because they have a difference of opinion from you.  Please keep the discussion civil.

arebelspy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7793 on: July 14, 2019, 03:01:37 PM »
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
If by "troll" you mean state things from a different, but still defensible, perspective than many other posters have, yes.

That's not what I mean, no.

I mean purposefully stating inflammatory things to aggravate others, and arguing in bad faith; not discussing things in order to learn, or even to educate others or genuinely debate an issue, but to make people upset.

Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.

Is that the case?

@Masterstache - I assume that reply means you agree with Dabnasty?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 03:04:29 PM by arebelspy »
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and are now settled with three kids.
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MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7794 on: July 14, 2019, 03:02:33 PM »
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
If by "troll" you mean state things from a different, but still defensible, perspective than many other posters have, yes.

Lies are not defensible. I highly advise you dig a bit deeper about who you are trying to defend. It doesn’t look good for you.
Thank you for that advice.  I will give it due consideration.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7795 on: July 14, 2019, 03:05:18 PM »


This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
If by "troll" you mean state things from a different, but still defensible, perspective than many other posters have, yes.

That's not what I mean, no.

I mean purposefully stating inflammatory things to aggravate others, and arguing in bad faith; not discussing things in order to learn, or even to educate others or genuinely debate an issue, but to make people upset.

Is that the case?
Can't speak to anyone's motivation, but "inflammatory" is subjective.  E.g., take "I think Obama was a great president" and "I think Trump is a great president".  Both of those will aggravate others, just not the same others.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7796 on: July 14, 2019, 03:11:50 PM »
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
If by "troll" you mean state things from a different, but still defensible, perspective than many other posters have, yes.

That's not what I mean, no.

I mean purposefully stating inflammatory things to aggravate others, and arguing in bad faith; not discussing things in order to learn, or even to educate others or genuinely debate an issue, but to make people upset.

Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.

Is that the case?

@MasterStache - I assume that reply means you agree with Dabnasty?

I’d say your edit is pretty accurate.

FIREstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7797 on: July 14, 2019, 03:16:32 PM »
It wouldn't surprise me that posters who disagree with my conservative viewpoints would want to censor me.  I think it's better to have more of a balance of opinions instead of people just agreeing with each other.  I differ in opinion than some others here, so those particular people may get stirred up, but my intention is only to voice my opinion on what is being discussed.  I'm also not the one who starts any of these threads or brings up any of these these topics and usually avoid much political discussion, but I unfortunately have gotten sucked into some of the discussion before bowing out.  Some who have differing opinions than me would like to censor my comments, but there are others with a more conservative viewpoint who agree with me to show some semblance of balance.  As someone else said, I try to keep it civil despite some of the name-calling and attacks that I've been on the receiving end of - I try to just ignore those posts rather than lowering myself to their level - those are the only ones I ignore provided I have time to read other responses - so I'm sure I miss a few from time to time.  Otherwise, I have an open mind and am open to hear someone else's case to see if they can refute anything I've said and also for seeing others' viewpoints, so that we can all learn from each other.  I would like to see everyone keep it civil.  I enjoy the MMM forum in general and didn't come here for the politics.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 03:23:04 PM by FIREstache »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7798 on: July 14, 2019, 03:20:26 PM »
This poster is just a troll, right?

I don't read the off topics enough to always catch this stuff, but the last few days the posts by this guy just seem like he's being contrary just to stir up *.

Am I reading that correctly?
If by "troll" you mean state things from a different, but still defensible, perspective than many other posters have, yes.

That's not what I mean, no.

I mean purposefully stating inflammatory things to aggravate others, and arguing in bad faith; not discussing things in order to learn, or even to educate others or genuinely debate an issue, but to make people upset.

Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.

Is that the case?

@MasterStache - I assume that reply means you agree with Dabnasty?

Yep. Been called out multiple times for making false claims but proceeded to double down and/or ignore.

MDM

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7799 on: July 14, 2019, 03:23:46 PM »
Edit: This bad faith is especially often seen when someone posts something, is refuted, but ignores the posts refuting it, rather than engaging them, and then continues to repeat the same assertion that has been argued against. This behavior is often just straight trolling, meant to annoy the people who are disagreeing by ignoring them, but posting the same thing they already responded to as if it were fact;  although the troll won't defend it, they'll keep posting it.  /End edit.
That's a more objective definition, and seems reasonable.

runbikerun makes a humorously good point:
If I saw a Trump tweet saying the sun rises in the east, I'd Google it to be certain he wasn't lying.

Yes, Trump tweets things that can easily be disproved - the size of his inauguration crowd being just one.  But FIREstache's point about these recent tweets hasn't been refuted, just argued against.