So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...

[GuitarStv]

If the felonious orange idiot goes to jail, does he still get Secret Service protection? (Maybe sorting this out is what's taking Mueller so long. :D) Lock him up!

Our judicial system is predicated on allowing convicted felons to serve out their sentences without fear of harm.  It sometimes doesn't succeed, but by-and-large even mass murders and serial rapists can count on living a long life behind bars.  Inmates that are particularly vulnerable to attack are segregated from the general prison population at the tax-payers' expense.

Our justice system hates vigilante justice.

1 in 5 prisoners in the Midwest report being coerced into sex, and 7% report being raped.  https://justdetention.org/  Because of the lack of adherence to basic food safety measures, inmates are 6 times more likely to become ill from the food they're served in prison.  https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2017/12/prison-food-sickness-america/549179/  In 17 states now, prison population exceeds the capacity of the prison system, leading to a variety of dangerous situations.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/09/20/prisons-in-these-17-states-are-filled-over-capacity/?utm_term=.ee67c555b67b

I'd argue that it's pretty common that harm of inmates takes place in US prisons, and that this harm is baked into the American idea of 'justice'.

[Roadrunner53]

This is a good read from the Huffington Post:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-trump-mueller-impeachment_us_5c0dee92e4b0a606a9aa1250

[former player]

Does anyone think the walls are closing in on Trump? There seems to be so much dirt on him but he manages to be a slippery eel and slithers away.

Of course they are.  The walls have been closing in on him since the moment he won the election.  I think history will look back on those photos of him looking frightened on election night with the context that this was the moment he knew he was going to jail.  You can only hide your sins for so long, and public office brings heightened scrutiny.

Trump has committed multiple felonies.  Remember that Bill Clinton was impeached for saying that a blowjob wasn't sex, and Congress decided that this was enough of a lie to make him morally unfit for office.  Trump lies that much every day before breakfast.  This morning, he was on twitter claiming that his payments to a porn star were unrelated to the election and weren't an attempt to conceal his marital infidelities from the public.

As for him being a "slippery eel", the only reason he has avoided prosecution so far is that precedent suggests we shouldn't indict a sitting President until after he leaves office, apparently because having a criminal president is better than replacing a president with a veep.  He's clearly guilty of multiple crimes, by his own admission and multiple lines of corroborating evidence.  There is literally tape of him on the phone with Cohen discussing the porn star payments he claimed he didn't know anything about.  Even if Republicans can continue to shield him from the Senate, Trump knows he's going to be indicted the minute he leaves office.  Everything he does now is on borrowed time, and I think it shows in his demeanor and disposition.  He's a dead man walking.

As for him being a "slippery eel", the only reason he has avoided prosecution so far is that precedent suggests we shouldn't indict a sitting President until after he leaves office, apparently because having a criminal president is better than replacing a president with a veep.

Why on earth would there be such a precedent that we can't indict a sitting president. He is evolving into a dictator. Stocks are dropping like a rock. He has no leadership ability. If this was a corporation, the bum would have been fired and a long time ago. New laws need to be enacted to prevent this from happening again. Now Kelley is leaving and what little 'control' he had to rein in this evil toddler will be gone. The White House will be in total chaos once he leaves.

The argument in favour of indicting a sitting President becomes incontrovertible, I would have thought, if the crimes being indicted are the fraudulent activities which enabled him to become President.  The "mustn't distract a sitting President from his job" argument can always be dealt with by temporarily passing his duties to the Vice-President, as is done when a President is ill.

The Department of Justice policy on not indicting a sitting President is only a policy, not a law.  Any government policy carries with it the possibility of making an exception to that policy - to say that there can be no exceptions unlawfully fetters the discretion of the decision-maker.  So either the Attorney General or his deputy could, if Mueller or the Southern District of New York asked, make an exception to the policy which would allow Trump to be indicted.

[sol]

the Attorney General or his deputy could, if Mueller or the Southern District of New York asked, make an exception to the policy which would allow Trump to be indicted.

That seems unlikely.  Let's not forget that Mueller is a life long republican.  Like James Comey, he may feel professionally bound to uphold the law regardless of where it leads, but he doesn't appear to have any personal desire to let progressive politicians have any more power than absolutely necessary.  These guys have spent decades backing the Bush/Reagan version of conservativism, and their current opposition to Trump is only because they personally favor politicians like Mike Pence, not because they have any love for liberals.

Indicting Trump, which is basically up to their personal discretion, would not advance the kind of policies they want to see.  If they feel it would harm the republican party, they'll look for some other option.  Comey has already called for an electoral solution.

I suspect that in four years time, we'll all look back on this era of Trump-cooperators as dark days for the republican party.  Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan will wage a PR campaign claiming they were forced to lay low to save the country, and that they never actually supported the traitor but were just trying to hold the union together at all costs.  Which will all be total bullshit, of course, given that they've already spent the last two years actively undermining the union instead, but I can't imagine any other potential narrative that doesn't mortally wound their party.

[Roadrunner53]

Okay, anyone think about Trump and his grand exit?

Remember he got out of going into the military because of heel spurs. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump throws in the 'D' (dementia) card and say he is sick and has to be cared for at home. Just like his taxes, he will deny access to his medical records due to the privacy act of HIPPA. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, a 1996 Federal law that restricts access to individuals' private medical information.

[nereo]

Okay, anyone think about Trump and his grand exit?

daily, unfortunately.

Remember he got out of going into the military because of heel spurs. I wouldn't be surprised if Trump throws in the 'D' (dementia) card and say he is sick and has to be cared for at home. Just like his taxes, he will deny access to his medical records due to the privacy act of HIPPA. Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, a 1996 Federal law that restricts access to individuals' private medical information.

I don't think he'd ever claim dementia.  His ego and pride won't allow it. True, his doctor said he had bone spurs to get him out of service in Vietnam, but there's not much of stigma with a vague foot problem and later on he said it 'cleared up on its own'.  You can't really do that with dementia, and it would counter all his claims of [being] "smarter than the generals / of very high intellegence / very stable genius / very good brain" (all statements he's made in public).

I don't know that there is a viable exit strategy for Trump.  He'll run, and if he loses it's be scorched-earth on whichever individual replaces him.  I expect that to be true even if he goes his full 8 years.  I'm betting 'avoiding publicly criticizing your successor' will be yet another norm he shatters.  I'm curious what his ceremonial letter to the president-elect will say.  "Dear Loser - the only reason you're allowed to sit in my office is because MILLIONS of illegals were bused in to vote for you, then they changed their hats and voted for you again. America won't stand for it! My GREAT legal team is going to sue, and then I'll Lock you up!  Sincerely, Donald J Trump."

[Roadrunner53]

He will do anything to avoid getting locked up. He would claim dementia to get out of his legal problems, then claim he went to some clinic and got the first cure ever for dementia. Probably because he was so smart and his gigantic brain was so big that it was able to fight the disease. Can't you imagine Trump telling that story?

[Just Joe]

Yeah I can't see him ever claiming sickness or age b/c that would be admitting some sort of weakness. I think he'd even stay even if he invented an ailment that required retirement.

He'd stand up there in front of his crowds and explain how the doctor says he needs rest and relaxation, how the family begs him to retire, and how he just can't leave the country in the hands of just anyone. Only he can protect America. The USA needs him in to steer it. Then he'd pump the crowd for cheers - You want me to stay? You understand that I need to stay? That America is doomed without me? Queue cheering and conservative people losing their minds just like they were 16 at a rock concert again...

[Glenstache]

More likely, if he was backed into a corner, he would claim that he was lied to (likely by omission), and that he is not responsible. He would then turn/flip on anyone he needed to to save his own skin. If it does go down, it will be a slow motion circular firing quad. Nobody will win in that scenario. Nobody in the Trump universe, nobody on the left. Nobody on the right. Nobody in the middle. I think so many witnesses will become unreliable that even Muller will not get much out of it for the proceedings that is durable. Side note, this may be part of Manafort's strategy: purposeful unreliability, and thus a tainted witness for the prosecution.

[nereo]

More likely, if he was backed into a corner, he would claim that he was lied to (likely by omission), and that he is not responsible. He would then turn/flip on anyone he needed to to save his own skin. If it does go down, it will be a slow motion circular firing quad. Nobody will win in that scenario. Nobody in the Trump universe, nobody on the left. Nobody on the right. Nobody in the middle. I think so many witnesses will become unreliable that even Muller will not get much out of it for the proceedings that is durable. Side note, this may be part of Manafort's strategy: purposeful unreliability, and thus a tainted witness for the prosecution.

The list of people who have left Trump's orbit worse off than when the entered it is long... Both former allies and adversaries.

[scottish]

Indeed.    John Kelly's planned replacement - Nick Ayers - declined to accept the position.

Can you imagine?   The role of a lifetime for a political operative and he turned it turn because Trump.

[bacchi]

Side note, this may be part of Manafort's strategy: purposeful unreliability, and thus a tainted witness for the prosecution.

Manafort is already an unreliable witness. Unfortunately, Mueller is a step ahead of him. He has the Word doc with the edit changes and he has the witness tampering texts. He's done -- stick a fork in him.

A pardon is also dangerous, even if Kavanuagh extends it to state charges. It voids the 5th and anymore lying gives Manafort a contempt charge. Can someone get 2 pardons? One for the original crime(s) and one for the contempt charge based on lying about the original crime(s)?

[dividendman]

Side note, this may be part of Manafort's strategy: purposeful unreliability, and thus a tainted witness for the prosecution.

Manafort is already an unreliable witness. Unfortunately, Mueller is a step ahead of him. He has the Word doc with the edit changes and he has the witness tampering texts. He's done -- stick a fork in him.

A pardon is also dangerous, even if Kavanuagh extends it to state charges. It voids the 5th and anymore lying gives Manafort a contempt charge. Can someone get 2 pardons? One for the original crime(s) and one for the contempt charge based on lying about the original crime(s)?

Pardon power is vast. You can be pardoned for all of the crimes you've committed in the past, even if you ahven't been charged with them or nobody knows you did them. See Nixon.

[bacchi]

Side note, this may be part of Manafort's strategy: purposeful unreliability, and thus a tainted witness for the prosecution.

Manafort is already an unreliable witness. Unfortunately, Mueller is a step ahead of him. He has the Word doc with the edit changes and he has the witness tampering texts. He's done -- stick a fork in him.

A pardon is also dangerous, even if Kavanuagh extends it to state charges. It voids the 5th and anymore lying gives Manafort a contempt charge. Can someone get 2 pardons? One for the original crime(s) and one for the contempt charge based on lying about the original crime(s)?

Pardon power is vast. You can be pardoned for all of the crimes you've committed in the past, even if you ahven't been charged with them or nobody knows you did them. See Nixon.

True but a pardon means that you can't be implicated in those crimes (for which you're pardoned). Pleading the 5th to those actions then becomes meaningless and doesn't apply -- there's no crime and one can't self-implicate.

A court could then compel Manafort to testify for his non-crimes. If he refused, or lied again, and faces contempt/perjury, would a pardon apply? Assuming that there's no state charges.

Trump: "This pardon is for all crimes related to Manafort's work related to Russia and the Ukraine, etc.. Oh, it's also a future pardon for when he refuses to testify, and for perjury, about his soon-to-be non-crimes related to Russia and the Ukraine."

It's almost a recursive pardon. One professor's opinon:

If President Trump provides a full Nixon-type pardon, and if the person pardoned still refuses to testify, that person could be held in contempt and jailed until he agrees to testify. But the president might pardon that as well.

It's all moot until the double jeopardy case makes its way to the SC. We'll then see how far Roberts will go to preserve Court credibility.

[former player]

Refusing to testify in court would be contempt of court.  Contempt is not a criminal offence. So no pardon for it.

[Roadrunner53]

Chris Christy's name is being thrown into the ring as a potential for Chief of Staff  .

He seems to have a short fuse. If he should get the job, how long before his head explodes?

[sol]

Chris Christy's name is being thrown into the ring as a potential for Chief of Staff  .

He seems to have a short fuse. If he should get the job, how long before his head explodes?

Seems incredibly unlikely that he gets the job.  Christie's father was responsible for sending Kushner's father to jail, so there is bad blood there.  Trump seems to hate Chris Christie with a burning passion.

[Roadrunner53]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

[sol]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

All of the same stuff that Trump is going to jail for:  campaign finance violations, tax evasion, and witness tampering.  That last one was salacious, involving hiring a hooker to seduce his brother in law and then sending the sex tape to his own sister, in retaliation for the brother in law cooperating with federal investigators.

[bacchi]

Refusing to testify in court would be contempt of court.  Contempt is not a criminal offence. So no pardon for it.

Trump, and the DOJ, would disagree. The Arpaio pardon was about criminal contempt. At worst, there was no punishment; at best, his record might be expunged.

[aspiringnomad]

Chris Christy's name is being thrown into the ring as a potential for Chief of Staff  .

He seems to have a short fuse. If he should get the job, how long before his head explodes?

Seems incredibly unlikely that he gets the job.  Christie's father was responsible for sending Kushner's father to jail, so there is bad blood there.  Trump seems to hate Chris Christie with a burning passion.

Even better than that - Christie himself successfully prosecuted Charles Kushner.

[marty998]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

All of the same stuff that Trump is going to jail for:  campaign finance violations, tax evasion, and witness tampering.  That last one was salacious, involving hiring a hooker to seduce his brother in law and then sending the sex tape to his own sister, in retaliation for the brother in law cooperating with federal investigators.

They certainly sound like perfect upstanding members of society. Role models we should all aspire to *gag*.

Dumb muppets.

[former player]

Refusing to testify in court would be contempt of court.  Contempt is not a criminal offence. So no pardon for it.

Trump, and the DOJ, would disagree. The Arpaio pardon was about criminal contempt. At worst, there was no punishment; at best, his record might be expunged.

Different type of contempt.  Arpaio was violating a court order to stop detaining immigrants.  Refusing to testify in court (ie how you behave in court rather than outside court) is a civil matter that just gets you sent to prison until you agree to do what the judge wants.

[nereo]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

All of the same stuff that Trump is going to jail for:  campaign finance violations, tax evasion, and witness tampering.  That last one was salacious, involving hiring a hooker to seduce his brother in law and then sending the sex tape to his own sister, in retaliation for the brother in law cooperating with federal investigators.

their family gatherings must be made-for-reality-tv...

[talltexan]

I acknowledge that the past five days have been extraordinarily bad for Trump, perhaps the worst five day stretch for a President since Reagan was wounded by Hinckley in 1981. As a consistent #nevertrumper , I've enjoyed myself greatly.

But why is everyone so sure he won't win re-election? Bill Clinton also had a disastrous first two years, culminating in the stunning election victory of the Republicans to take Congress in 1994. Alleged financial crimes of his led to the appointment of a special prosecutor. But none of those things were enough to end his Presidency early.

Trump's support seems very durable at some base level. And the Democrats will have to put forward a specific candidate, who can immediately be the target of a lot of slime from Republican institutions who will keep power at any cost. It's always easier to find flaws with a specific candidate than with a generic one.

[Poundwise]

Trump will most likely run in 2020 because if he wins another term, he may outrun the 5 year statute of limitations on his campaign finance violations while in office (assuming that he is untouchable while he remains a sitting President with a supportive Republican Senate).

On another note, he has a new legacy: The Bottomless Pinocchio
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/12/10/meet-bottomless-pinocchio-new-rating-false-claim-repeated-over-over-again

[GuitarStv]

Bill Clinton also had a disastrous first two years, culminating in the stunning election victory of the Republicans to take Congress in 1994. Alleged financial crimes of his led to the appointment of a special prosecutor. But none of those things were enough to end his Presidency early.

Which "alleged financial crimes" are you talking about?  Statutory rapey sex stuff, sure . . . but I don't remember financial crimes.

[former player]

Bill Clinton also had a disastrous first two years, culminating in the stunning election victory of the Republicans to take Congress in 1994. Alleged financial crimes of his led to the appointment of a special prosecutor. But none of those things were enough to end his Presidency early.

Which "alleged financial crimes" are you talking about?  Statutory rapey sex stuff, sure . . . but I don't remember financial crimes.

Whitewater?

[nereo]

But why is everyone so sure he won't win re-election? Bill Clinton also had a disastrous first two years, culminating in the stunning election victory of the Republicans to take Congress in 1994. Alleged financial crimes of his led to the appointment of a special prosecutor. But none of those things were enough to end his Presidency early.

I don't count him out, but I think he has a very tough road ahead for re-election. As you mentioned he has base level of support which seems unlikely abandon him regardless (though see: economy, stupid).But that support isn't enough going forward.  Trump has struggled to stay above the 40% approval rating during the best weeks of his presidency, and has frequently dipped down into the upper 30s.  More importantly, his disapproval rating has stayed above 50%, with more people saying they 'strongly disapprove' than 'strongly support'. The midterms seem to be a pretty good barometer of how unpopular DJT is throughout the suburbs.

Comparing to WJC and his presidency - Clinton's support was around 60% when impeachment proceedings began, and then went up from there as the public saw the charges against him as not sufficient for removal from office.  Without the senate Dems seem reluctant to go down the impeachment route, which seems smart IMO - better to investigate, expose and censure than fight a battle one cannot win.

Then there's the narrowness of his path to re-election.  DJT eeked out a win by losing the popular vote but winning the battleground states by just enough to get the all-important electoral college votes. He still needs to carry both Ohio and Florida, plus at least one of the following: Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin (states he won with < 1% of the vote), while holding onto North Carolina and Arizona (both states trending more purple).  He's currently less popular (and underwater) in all of those states than he was when he was elected. You are right that this is against a 'generic' Democratic opponent, and once that person is decided it will become more personal, but right now DJT has to convince a lot of people who "strongly disagree" that he's still a better choice.  That seems tough.  Adding to this challenge is an electorate that will be less white than in 2016, more educated and likely more urban and more motivated to vote.  Florida presents its own challenges, as an estimated ~200k citizens from Puerto Rico have settled there since Hurricane Maria, and as a block they are particularly resistant to Trump (note that Trump won Florida by just over 100k votes).

OTOH, Trump is the incumbent, has the power of the bully pulpit (which he's been shown to use, see: military deployed to the border).  His challenge and strategy will be to make whatever challenger he faces more vilified than he.  unlike Clinton, where the GOP had literally spent decades attacking her, virtually every candidate out there is much less well known and hasn't been as thoroughly tarred and feathered.

[MasterStache]

But why is everyone so sure he won't win re-election? Bill Clinton also had a disastrous first two years, culminating in the stunning election victory of the Republicans to take Congress in 1994. Alleged financial crimes of his led to the appointment of a special prosecutor. But none of those things were enough to end his Presidency early.

I don't count him out, but I think he has a very tough road ahead for re-election. As you mentioned he has base level of support which seems unlikely abandon him regardless (though see: economy, stupid).But that support isn't enough going forward.  Trump has struggled to stay above the 40% approval rating during the best weeks of his presidency, and has frequently dipped down into the upper 30s.  More importantly, his disapproval rating has stayed above 50%, with more people saying they 'strongly disapprove' than 'strongly support'. The midterms seem to be a pretty good barometer of how unpopular DJT is throughout the suburbs.

Comparing to WJC and his presidency - Clinton's support was around 60% when impeachment proceedings began, and then went up from there as the public saw the charges against him as not sufficient for removal from office.  Without the senate Dems seem reluctant to go down the impeachment route, which seems smart IMO - better to investigate, expose and censure than fight a battle one cannot win.

Then there's the narrowness of his path to re-election.  DJT eeked out a win by losing the popular vote but winning the battleground states by just enough to get the all-important electoral college votes. He still needs to carry both Ohio and Florida, plus at least one of the following: Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin (states he won with < 1% of the vote), while holding onto North Carolina and Arizona (both states trending more purple).  He's currently less popular (and underwater) in all of those states than he was when he was elected. You are right that this is against a 'generic' Democratic opponent, and once that person is decided it will become more personal, but right now DJT has to convince a lot of people who "strongly disagree" that he's still a better choice.  That seems tough.  Adding to this challenge is an electorate that will be less white than in 2016, more educated and likely more urban and more motivated to vote.  Florida presents its own challenges, as an estimated ~200k citizens from Puerto Rico have settled there since Hurricane Maria, and as a block they are particularly resistant to Trump (note that Trump won Florida by just over 100k votes).

OTOH, Trump is the incumbent, has the power of the bully pulpit (which he's been shown to use, see: military deployed to the border).  His challenge and strategy will be to make whatever challenger he faces more vilified than he.  unlike Clinton, where the GOP had literally spent decades attacking her, virtually every candidate out there is much less well known and hasn't been as thoroughly tarred and feathered.

If the market keeps plummeting combined with the dip in home and auto sales, the rise in delinquencies, interest rates rising, tariffs impacting industry and consumer products, then it would be rather tough to flout the economy. I don't see positive things right now in the near future for the economy itself. But hey lets build a wall. That will fix everything *rolls eyes* 

Oh and consumer debt has reached all time highs. That will work out well when it all comes crashing back down. We are already seeing huge cracks.

[OurTown]

President Pence, as odious as that sounds, would likely get rid of the tariffs and restore free trade.

[sol]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

All of the same stuff that Trump is going to jail for:  campaign finance violations, tax evasion, and witness tampering.  That last one was salacious, involving hiring a hooker to seduce his brother in law and then sending the sex tape to his own sister, in retaliation for the brother in law cooperating with federal investigators.

They certainly sound like perfect upstanding members of society. Role models we should all aspire to *gag*.

Dumb muppets.

Dumb muppets that hold the fate of the world in their hands.  Let's hope our institutions are strong enough to withstand a few years of gross national mismanagement.

I think Donald Trump is the inevitable conclusion to the baby boomer generation.  They inherited a postwar economy unlike anything every seen before, have amassed more personal wealth than any group of people in history, flagrantly strip mined the planet's resources to make it happen, then blamed their own children for ruining everything by being lazy and entitled.  What could be a more fitting capstone to their generation than electing their archetype to the presidency?

Like every other politicians of his era, Trump is a me me me right now kind of guy.  Screw the deficit, let's cut taxes!  Screw the environment, let's juice short term profits!  Screw the rule of law, there's power to be grabbed!  "Waaah, I was born rich and privileged but it's been so hard for me to continue being rich and privileged!"

America will have to pay for these sins eventually.  Today's youth seem unlikely to receive the same social security benefits that Donald Trump and his generation will get.  They will never have the protection of union jobs.  They will never be able to afford a college education by working a summer gig, and as a cohort they will never be able to afford to buy a house and raise a family in their 20s without a college degree.  For the first time in American history, the economic outlook for today's young people is not better than it was for their parents and it's the parent's fault for creating that situation.  We seem to have forsaken our sense of obligation to the future, of our country and of our own families.

This is the future America has built for itself, and it's the future Donald Trump is delivering as promised.  I'm really looking forward to reading the new history books when I am 100 years old.

Donald Trump has always been a con man, and I don't think he thought very carefully about how his malfeasance might be exposed if he became President.  Now that we have proof that he's committed multiple felonies, his political legacy is forever ruined.  Like Nixon, he will either go to jail or be pardoned and either way history will laugh at him.  From here on out, everything else he does while in office will just be an attempt to add spin to the overarching historical narrative of former President Trump as criminally corrupt.

[GuitarStv]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

All of the same stuff that Trump is going to jail for:  campaign finance violations, tax evasion, and witness tampering.  That last one was salacious, involving hiring a hooker to seduce his brother in law and then sending the sex tape to his own sister, in retaliation for the brother in law cooperating with federal investigators.

They certainly sound like perfect upstanding members of society. Role models we should all aspire to *gag*.

Dumb muppets.

Dumb muppets that hold the fate of the world in their hands.  Let's hope our institutions are strong enough to withstand a few years of gross national mismanagement.

I think Donald Trump is the inevitable conclusion to the baby boomer generation.  They inherited a postwar economy unlike anything every seen before, have amassed more personal wealth than any group of people in history, flagrantly strip mined the planet's resources to make it happen, then blamed their own children for ruining everything by being lazy and entitled.  What could be a more fitting capstone to their generation than electing their archetype to the presidency?

Like every other politicians of his era, Trump is a me me me right now kind of guy.  Screw the deficit, let's cut taxes!  Screw the environment, let's juice short term profits!  Screw the rule of law, there's power to be grabbed!  "Waaah, I was born rich and privileged but it's been so hard for me to continue being rich and privileged!"

America will have to pay for these sins eventually.  Today's youth seem unlikely to receive the same social security benefits that Donald Trump and his generation will get.  They will never have the protection of union jobs.  They will never be able to afford a college education by working a summer gig, and as a cohort they will never be able to afford to buy a house and raise a family in their 20s without a college degree.  For the first time in American history, the economic outlook for today's young people is not better than it was for their parents and it's the parent's fault for creating that situation.  We seem to have forsaken our sense of obligation to the future, of our country and of our own families.

This is the future America has built for itself, and it's the future Donald Trump is delivering as promised.  I'm really looking forward to reading the new history books when I am 100 years old.

Donald Trump has always been a con man, and I don't think he thought very carefully about how his malfeasance might be exposed if he became President.  Now that we have proof that he's committed multiple felonies, his political legacy is forever ruined.  Like Nixon, he will either go to jail or be pardoned and either way history will laugh at him.  From here on out, everything else he does while in office will just be an attempt to add spin to the overarching historical narrative of former President Trump as criminally corrupt.

It's really important to remember that the Republican party has continued to enable Donald Trump every step of the way.  There has been no opposition of note to anything that he has done as president from the party, just a few token soundbites of disapproval every now and then to achieve plausible deniability when the whole fiasco inevitably goes belly up.

[former player]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

All of the same stuff that Trump is going to jail for:  campaign finance violations, tax evasion, and witness tampering.  That last one was salacious, involving hiring a hooker to seduce his brother in law and then sending the sex tape to his own sister, in retaliation for the brother in law cooperating with federal investigators.

They certainly sound like perfect upstanding members of society. Role models we should all aspire to *gag*.

Dumb muppets.

Dumb muppets that hold the fate of the world in their hands.  Let's hope our institutions are strong enough to withstand a few years of gross national mismanagement.

I think Donald Trump is the inevitable conclusion to the baby boomer generation.  They inherited a postwar economy unlike anything every seen before, have amassed more personal wealth than any group of people in history, flagrantly strip mined the planet's resources to make it happen, then blamed their own children for ruining everything by being lazy and entitled.  What could be a more fitting capstone to their generation than electing their archetype to the presidency?

Like every other politicians of his era, Trump is a me me me right now kind of guy.  Screw the deficit, let's cut taxes!  Screw the environment, let's juice short term profits!  Screw the rule of law, there's power to be grabbed!  "Waaah, I was born rich and privileged but it's been so hard for me to continue being rich and privileged!"

America will have to pay for these sins eventually.  Today's youth seem unlikely to receive the same social security benefits that Donald Trump and his generation will get.  They will never have the protection of union jobs.  They will never be able to afford a college education by working a summer gig, and as a cohort they will never be able to afford to buy a house and raise a family in their 20s without a college degree.  For the first time in American history, the economic outlook for today's young people is not better than it was for their parents and it's the parent's fault for creating that situation.  We seem to have forsaken our sense of obligation to the future, of our country and of our own families.

This is the future America has built for itself, and it's the future Donald Trump is delivering as promised.  I'm really looking forward to reading the new history books when I am 100 years old.

Donald Trump has always been a con man, and I don't think he thought very carefully about how his malfeasance might be exposed if he became President.  Now that we have proof that he's committed multiple felonies, his political legacy is forever ruined.  Like Nixon, he will either go to jail or be pardoned and either way history will laugh at him.  From here on out, everything else he does while in office will just be an attempt to add spin to the overarching historical narrative of former President Trump as criminally corrupt.

It's really important to remember that the Republican party has continued to enable Donald Trump every step of the way.  There has been no opposition of note to anything that he has done as president from the party, just a few token soundbites of disapproval every now and then to achieve plausible deniability when the whole fiasco inevitably goes belly up.

I really don't understand the Republican party - the senators and House Representatives at least.  Trump has got a maximum of another 6 years, probably far less, before he becomes a name of disgrace for the ages.  Any senator or Representative who expects to live more than 6 years is going to see their reputation trashed for the rest of their lives for enabling a massively criminal and corrupt security risk to use the position of President to trash the safety, security and reputation of the USA around the world.

Can't they see that yet?  If not, why not?

[nereo]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

All of the same stuff that Trump is going to jail for:  campaign finance violations, tax evasion, and witness tampering.  That last one was salacious, involving hiring a hooker to seduce his brother in law and then sending the sex tape to his own sister, in retaliation for the brother in law cooperating with federal investigators.

They certainly sound like perfect upstanding members of society. Role models we should all aspire to *gag*.

Dumb muppets.

Dumb muppets that hold the fate of the world in their hands.  Let's hope our institutions are strong enough to withstand a few years of gross national mismanagement.

I think Donald Trump is the inevitable conclusion to the baby boomer generation.  They inherited a postwar economy unlike anything every seen before, have amassed more personal wealth than any group of people in history, flagrantly strip mined the planet's resources to make it happen, then blamed their own children for ruining everything by being lazy and entitled.  What could be a more fitting capstone to their generation than electing their archetype to the presidency?

Like every other politicians of his era, Trump is a me me me right now kind of guy.  Screw the deficit, let's cut taxes!  Screw the environment, let's juice short term profits!  Screw the rule of law, there's power to be grabbed!  "Waaah, I was born rich and privileged but it's been so hard for me to continue being rich and privileged!"

America will have to pay for these sins eventually.  Today's youth seem unlikely to receive the same social security benefits that Donald Trump and his generation will get.  They will never have the protection of union jobs.  They will never be able to afford a college education by working a summer gig, and as a cohort they will never be able to afford to buy a house and raise a family in their 20s without a college degree.  For the first time in American history, the economic outlook for today's young people is not better than it was for their parents and it's the parent's fault for creating that situation.  We seem to have forsaken our sense of obligation to the future, of our country and of our own families.

This is the future America has built for itself, and it's the future Donald Trump is delivering as promised.  I'm really looking forward to reading the new history books when I am 100 years old.

Donald Trump has always been a con man, and I don't think he thought very carefully about how his malfeasance might be exposed if he became President.  Now that we have proof that he's committed multiple felonies, his political legacy is forever ruined.  Like Nixon, he will either go to jail or be pardoned and either way history will laugh at him.  From here on out, everything else he does while in office will just be an attempt to add spin to the overarching historical narrative of former President Trump as criminally corrupt.

It's really important to remember that the Republican party has continued to enable Donald Trump every step of the way.  There has been no opposition of note to anything that he has done as president from the party, just a few token soundbites of disapproval every now and then to achieve plausible deniability when the whole fiasco inevitably goes belly up.

I really don't understand the Republican party - the senators and House Representatives at least.  Trump has got a maximum of another 6 years, probably far less, before he becomes a name of disgrace for the ages.  Any senator or Representative who expects to live more than 6 years is going to see their reputation trashed for the rest of their lives for enabling a massively criminal and corrupt security risk to use the position of President to trash the safety, security and reputation of the USA around the world.

Can't they see that yet?  If not, why not?

House members are focused on winning their next election in 2 years.  They don't take the long view, ever - they can't afford to.  Senators get a bit more time; some may simply be hoping to outlast him.  DJT's shown that he'll throw members of his own party under the bus.  He's correctly surmised that the political cost of opposing him is greater for most tthan meekly following along

Of course that in itself is a short-term strategy.  The GOP's tent is getting smaller while the country is becoming more of what the GOP is not (ethnically varied, socially inclusive, global, accepting of climate change). Not too long ago 'W' got 40% of the latino vote; hard to imagine this GOP cracking 30%. Political identity is forged in your 20s and 30s, and this demographic has turned its back on the GOP in droves.

[GuitarStv]

Oh, that would be juicy if Christy got in and there was bad blood! What did Kushner's father go to jail for?

All of the same stuff that Trump is going to jail for:  campaign finance violations, tax evasion, and witness tampering.  That last one was salacious, involving hiring a hooker to seduce his brother in law and then sending the sex tape to his own sister, in retaliation for the brother in law cooperating with federal investigators.

They certainly sound like perfect upstanding members of society. Role models we should all aspire to *gag*.

Dumb muppets.

Dumb muppets that hold the fate of the world in their hands.  Let's hope our institutions are strong enough to withstand a few years of gross national mismanagement.

I think Donald Trump is the inevitable conclusion to the baby boomer generation.  They inherited a postwar economy unlike anything every seen before, have amassed more personal wealth than any group of people in history, flagrantly strip mined the planet's resources to make it happen, then blamed their own children for ruining everything by being lazy and entitled.  What could be a more fitting capstone to their generation than electing their archetype to the presidency?

Like every other politicians of his era, Trump is a me me me right now kind of guy.  Screw the deficit, let's cut taxes!  Screw the environment, let's juice short term profits!  Screw the rule of law, there's power to be grabbed!  "Waaah, I was born rich and privileged but it's been so hard for me to continue being rich and privileged!"

America will have to pay for these sins eventually.  Today's youth seem unlikely to receive the same social security benefits that Donald Trump and his generation will get.  They will never have the protection of union jobs.  They will never be able to afford a college education by working a summer gig, and as a cohort they will never be able to afford to buy a house and raise a family in their 20s without a college degree.  For the first time in American history, the economic outlook for today's young people is not better than it was for their parents and it's the parent's fault for creating that situation.  We seem to have forsaken our sense of obligation to the future, of our country and of our own families.

This is the future America has built for itself, and it's the future Donald Trump is delivering as promised.  I'm really looking forward to reading the new history books when I am 100 years old.

Donald Trump has always been a con man, and I don't think he thought very carefully about how his malfeasance might be exposed if he became President.  Now that we have proof that he's committed multiple felonies, his political legacy is forever ruined.  Like Nixon, he will either go to jail or be pardoned and either way history will laugh at him.  From here on out, everything else he does while in office will just be an attempt to add spin to the overarching historical narrative of former President Trump as criminally corrupt.

It's really important to remember that the Republican party has continued to enable Donald Trump every step of the way.  There has been no opposition of note to anything that he has done as president from the party, just a few token soundbites of disapproval every now and then to achieve plausible deniability when the whole fiasco inevitably goes belly up.

I really don't understand the Republican party - the senators and House Representatives at least.  Trump has got a maximum of another 6 years, probably far less, before he becomes a name of disgrace for the ages.  Any senator or Representative who expects to live more than 6 years is going to see their reputation trashed for the rest of their lives for enabling a massively criminal and corrupt security risk to use the position of President to trash the safety, security and reputation of the USA around the world.

Can't they see that yet?  If not, why not?

They obviously like what he's doing right now a lot more than they fear any repercussions from their actions.  And really, can you blame them?  The Republican base likes what Trump is doing.

[talltexan]

Bill Clinton also had a disastrous first two years, culminating in the stunning election victory of the Republicans to take Congress in 1994. Alleged financial crimes of his led to the appointment of a special prosecutor. But none of those things were enough to end his Presidency early.

Which "alleged financial crimes" are you talking about?  Statutory rapey sex stuff, sure . . . but I don't remember financial crimes.

Whitewater?

Indeed I had whitewater in mind. Hence my inclusion of the word 'alleged'

[talltexan]

It sure seems easy to find quotes of Reagan and H-W-Bush praising Richard Nixon and blaming the Democrats for distracting him with their silly investigations.

Saying these things kept them from the white house for, oh, six years. As horrible as Trump is (and I agree that he's horrible), there are simply too many Republicans who've gone along with Trump for it to turn into any kind of disqualifying thing that people supported him against the great menace of HRC.

[C-note]

Do you think the Mrs. or children have any say in his re-election run?

They seem to go along with whatever he says and does but I have to wonder if they want another 4 years of it.

[DarkandStormy]

When is Individual-1 Jr. going to be indicted?

[nereo]

When is Individual-1 Jr. going to be indicted?

Given how explosive indicting anyone related to "individual-1" would be, I'm guessing that any such indictments will all come together, and all as Mueller submits his final report.  I think there's zero chance the special council could continue to function if/when Jr. is indicted.

In other word, Mueller will give the ultimate mic-drop.

[sol]

In other word, Mueller will give the ultimate mic-drop.

I'm not expecting any surprises.  We already knew that Trump broke campaign finance laws, that was reported widely months ago when it first came out.  We're just now seeing the formal charges brought, with all of the required supporting evidence.  (I mean evidence besides Trump admitting to everything on twitter.)

The Don Jr. indictment seems likely to follow the same script.  We already know he arranged the meeting with Russians at Trump tower because he had been promised help from the Russian government.  We have seen the emails where he asks to collude.  We know the names of the people who were present.  We have the public lies he told about the meeting before during and afterwards, including all four of the different stories he told about it.  We know that Donald Trump personally dictated some of those lies in an attempted cover-up.  Now it's just a matter of waiting for the formal charges against both of them.

Ditto for the obstruction of justice charges related to Flynn and Comey.  That was also widely reported when it happened, with fifty different lawyers commenting about how and why it was illegal.  The special counsel's office is just putting all of the ducks in a row to make those charges official.  I think the final revelation will be played as a bombshell in the popular press, but we already know what it's going to say.  It would be a bigger bombshell if they somehow failed to bring charges for obstruction of justice, given what we already know.

[Glenstache]

I'm not convinced that the DNC leadership actually gets how Trump works. His base thrives on Trump fighting Democrats, and apparently Pelosi in particular. Fast forward to today with Schumer and Pelosi agreeing to have a public meeting with Trump, where Trump was able to say, "I'm proud to shut down the government for border security." How did they not see this coming?

[jrhampt]

They thought it was going to be a private meeting.

[nereo]

I'm not convinced that the DNC leadership actually gets how Trump works. His base thrives on Trump fighting Democrats, and apparently Pelosi in particular. Fast forward to today with Schumer and Pelosi agreeing to have a public meeting with Trump, where Trump was able to say, "I'm proud to shut down the government for border security." How did they not see this coming?

I think this is *exactly* what Schumer and Pelosi wanted.  They know they aren't going to turn any hard-core Trumpers, but they also know those people make up < 50% of the electorate.  Chuck got Trump to say, with cameras rolling "I'd be proud to shut down the government" . Right before Christmas.  Expect that quote to run almost about as often as Christmas ads.

Pelosi made Trump come off as boorish to all the suburban and urban women out there.  By suggesting multiple times that they meet behind closed doors to hash out their differences and then come back to the cameras Pelosi laid bare that meeting for what it was - another episode of Trumps Reality TV, not any attempt to govern or reach a compromise or solution. She got to present herself as an experienced, composed politician trying to strike a deal, while Trump came off (again) as the uninformed bully willing to screw over 1.3MM federal workers right before the holidays for an issue that the majority of Americans already see as a waste of money.

Pelosi and Schumer are well aware that to do well in 2020 they need to i) keep their base fired up, ii) appeal to suburban voters, iii) make Trump appear unfit to actually govern to independents and moderates of both sides, which involves brokering deals and signing legislation.  In 20-some minutes they accomplished all of those things.

[Just Joe]

Bill Clinton also had a disastrous first two years, culminating in the stunning election victory of the Republicans to take Congress in 1994. Alleged financial crimes of his led to the appointment of a special prosecutor. But none of those things were enough to end his Presidency early.

Which "alleged financial crimes" are you talking about?  Statutory rapey sex stuff, sure . . . but I don't remember financial crimes.

Whitewater?

Are banking crimes in Arkansas on the same level as being in cahoots with the Russians? I'm gen X. My entire life the Russians have always been a really, really bad thing.

[GuitarStv]

Bill Clinton also had a disastrous first two years, culminating in the stunning election victory of the Republicans to take Congress in 1994. Alleged financial crimes of his led to the appointment of a special prosecutor. But none of those things were enough to end his Presidency early.

Which "alleged financial crimes" are you talking about?  Statutory rapey sex stuff, sure . . . but I don't remember financial crimes.

Whitewater?

Are banking crimes in Arkansas on the same level as being in cahoots with the Russians? I'm gen X. My entire life the Russians have always been a really, really bad thing.

Wikipedia seems to indicate that there was never enough evidence found to prosecute Clinton.  Is that where we are with Trump at the moment?

[partgypsy]

This is from a facebook posting (a friend of a friend). I don't think Trump really understands a lot of what people tell him.


"family member in the Corps of Engineers who told me that his boss (the general) had to meet with Trump to talk about plans for the wall. The general tried to explain why Trump's idea for a 30-ft deep trench wouldn't work, but Trump's eyes glazed over. The general then showed him the Corp's initial plan for the wall and Trump said it was ugly. He said he wanted his wall to be beautiful and sketched out what he thought was a beautiful wall: 30 feet high with spikes on the top. I saw a photo of the sketch and all I could think of was Vlad the Impaler. Crazy train!"

[PathtoFIRE]

H/T to Pod Save America for planting this idea in my head. I carry a very strong need for justice, and it would be a travesty of justice for him and his children and co-conspirators to be able to walk away from their crimes, but is that really the worst thing that could happen? I'm beginning to wonder if the best course of action regarding Trump is to just bribe him to leave the office as soon as possible. I'm torn between creating a dangerous precedent versus entering a period of time when he still wields tremendous power but begins to really feel backed into a corner.

[Just Joe]

President Pence, as odious as that sounds, would likely get rid of the tariffs and restore free trade.

But what might he do to people's rights that have different POVs on marriage, sexuality, gender, and religion? I know these topics have been used as a boogieman scare tactic by some... What would he be like IRL once he was president?