Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 764003 times)

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7550 on: July 05, 2019, 05:21:22 AM »
"In defence of freedom around the world."

That's a no from me.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13746
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7551 on: July 05, 2019, 05:42:01 AM »
I'm excited about Trump's stated intent to plant an American flag on Mars.  The fake news media doesn't seem to be covering Trump's Space Force enough . . . had no idea that manned missions to the red planet were about to become a reality!  In fact, I thought that the US was rolling back a lot of space related science funding.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7552 on: July 05, 2019, 06:27:10 AM »
"In defence of freedom around the world."

That's a no from me.

That's a reference to the WWII veterans who gave all.   Are you saying no to that sacrifice and support?  Defeating the Axis is a critical part of history that we should all be very thankful for.  Don't take it for granted.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 06:31:09 AM by KBecks »

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7553 on: July 05, 2019, 06:58:52 AM »
"In defence of freedom around the world."

That's a no from me.

That's a reference to the WWII veterans who gave all.   Are you saying no to that sacrifice and support?  Defeating the Axis is a critical part of history that we should all be very thankful for.  Don't take it for granted.

I'm referring to American support of dictators, authoritarians, and full-on war criminals around the globe for the last several decades.

And if you want to commemorate the soldiers who fought in World War Two, how about marking VE Day and VJ Day?

LaineyAZ

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 229
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7554 on: July 05, 2019, 07:02:05 AM »
I'm excited about Trump's stated intent to plant an American flag on Mars.  The fake news media doesn't seem to be covering Trump's Space Force enough . . . had no idea that manned missions to the red planet were about to become a reality!  In fact, I thought that the US was rolling back a lot of space related science funding.

Am waiting for the Republicans to ask the usual question:  "But how are we going to pay for it?" 

Never mind, they only ask that question for social-related government service proposals.  Carry on.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7555 on: July 05, 2019, 07:03:50 AM »
You can look at America with an optimistic or pessimistic point of view.  I prefer optimism. 

I know that there are failures, mistakes, poor decisions, etc.   

If you want to be negative, be negative, but we should honor the accomplishments and sacrifices of everyone who has helped make our country and world better, safer, smarter, stronger.  We have a lot to be proud of, and very, very thankful for.  July 4 is Independence Day, a celebration of America. It's perfectly appropriate to celebrate and honor everything good in our country and our country's history.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 07:05:31 AM by KBecks »

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10567
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7556 on: July 05, 2019, 07:50:32 AM »
  July 4 is Independence Day, a celebration of America. It's perfectly appropriate to celebrate and honor everything good in our country and our country's history.

But is it appropriate to put machines of war on full display? To encourage people to celebrate inventions who's inherent function is to kill other people? That's what I object to about this or most other military-style parades.  Honor the people, remember the collective sacrifices, absolutely.  But why bring tanks and fighter jets and bombers?

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4269
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7557 on: July 05, 2019, 07:51:18 AM »
Independence Day is not a military holiday.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13746
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7558 on: July 05, 2019, 08:41:05 AM »
Independence Day is not a military holiday.

It's like you've forgotten the tanks, fighter planes, and goose-stepping that was so important in the fight against those dastardly red-shirts to gain America's independence.

Roadrunner53

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2362
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7559 on: July 05, 2019, 08:56:05 AM »
Trump thinks he is king and can use Executive Order on anything that he can't get passed. What is next, declaring himself supreme ruler of the United States and no further elections will be allowed?

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/legal-experts-potential-trump-executive-order-on-census-lacks-constitutional-basis/

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7560 on: July 05, 2019, 09:22:21 AM »
Independence Day is not a military holiday.

Only if you totally separate the piece of paper from the American Revolution.  They generally go together.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7561 on: July 05, 2019, 09:24:47 AM »
  July 4 is Independence Day, a celebration of America. It's perfectly appropriate to celebrate and honor everything good in our country and our country's history.

But is it appropriate to put machines of war on full display? To encourage people to celebrate inventions who's inherent function is to kill other people? That's what I object to about this or most other military-style parades.  Honor the people, remember the collective sacrifices, absolutely.  But why bring tanks and fighter jets and bombers?

It's a display of American might and pride.  We are a superpower, world leaders.  It honors all those who are serving now and inspires those who will serve in the future.  Peace through strength. 

It was interesting in Trump's speech in describing the military branches -- the comments about our enemies and those who oppose us recognizing the strength of the American military in every form.  Superpower.  And a
super responsibility that goes with it.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 09:31:59 AM by KBecks »

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2163
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7562 on: July 05, 2019, 09:32:45 AM »
I think the military salute would have gone over much better across the political spectrum had it been conducted on Memorial Day or Veterans Day. I have friends to who do, and have, served in the military and I am deeply respectful of their service. It is worth noting that the 4th of July celebration arranged by Trump was not unilaterally supported within the military. There was also a thread of saying that we should leave the displays of tanks and other hardware on the capitol grounds for Russia and North Korea. In context, it felt a bit jingoistic to me. Personally, I wish Trump was as good at actual foreign policy and diplomacy as is he is a spectacle. He certainly understands the power of the latter, but maybe not so much the former.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 13746
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7563 on: July 05, 2019, 09:37:40 AM »
  July 4 is Independence Day, a celebration of America. It's perfectly appropriate to celebrate and honor everything good in our country and our country's history.

But is it appropriate to put machines of war on full display? To encourage people to celebrate inventions who's inherent function is to kill other people? That's what I object to about this or most other military-style parades.  Honor the people, remember the collective sacrifices, absolutely.  But why bring tanks and fighter jets and bombers?

It's a display of American might and pride.  We are a superpower, world leaders.  It honors all those who are serving now and inspires those who will serve in the future.

Weird that they didn't parade some of the naked and raped torture victims from Abu Grahb around.  To show those who might serve what their country orders them to do that they can take pride in.  Or maybe have a few of the men incarcerated permenantly in Guantanamo Bay without a hope of a fair trial . . . who, when attempting a hunger strike due to the hopelessness of their situation are strapped down and having tubes forced down their throats to force them to eat.

Super responsibility indeed.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7564 on: July 05, 2019, 09:50:25 AM »
I think the military salute would have gone over much better across the political spectrum had it been conducted on Memorial Day or Veterans Day. I have friends to who do, and have, served in the military and I am deeply respectful of their service. It is worth noting that the 4th of July celebration arranged by Trump was not unilaterally supported within the military. There was also a thread of saying that we should leave the displays of tanks and other hardware on the capitol grounds for Russia and North Korea. In context, it felt a bit jingoistic to me. Personally, I wish Trump was as good at actual foreign policy and diplomacy as is he is a spectacle. He certainly understands the power of the latter, but maybe not so much the former.

I heard that Trump's military salute was inspired by something he saw while in France.  Note that there were 2 Bradley armored fighting vehicles and 2 Abrams tanks in the VIP area. 

My husband was in the army reserve and he was a tank commander.  Now, this may be a military thing and a guy thing, but TANKS are COOL.  My husband was quick to point out that a Bradley fighting vehicle is NOT a tank.  He was pleased to hear that there were real tanks at the celebration.  Most military folk like military tech and military history. 

I personally LOVED the men's chorus. So beautiful; they sang the song of each branch of the military.

Article on the military vehicles and aircraft that participated:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a28283903/all-of-the-military-hardware-at-washingtons-4th-of-july-event/

« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 09:58:26 AM by KBecks »

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7565 on: July 05, 2019, 09:56:21 AM »
I think the military salute would have gone over much better across the political spectrum had it been conducted on Memorial Day or Veterans Day. I have friends to who do, and have, served in the military and I am deeply respectful of their service. It is worth noting that the 4th of July celebration arranged by Trump was not unilaterally supported within the military. There was also a thread of saying that we should leave the displays of tanks and other hardware on the capitol grounds for Russia and North Korea. In context, it felt a bit jingoistic to me. Personally, I wish Trump was as good at actual foreign policy and diplomacy as is he is a spectacle. He certainly understands the power of the latter, but maybe not so much the former.

I heard that Trump's military salute was inspired by something he saw while in France.  Note that there were 2 Bradley armored fighting vehicles and 2 Abrams tanks in the VIP area. 

My husband was in the army reserve and he was a tank commander.  Now, this may be a military thing and a guy thing, but TANKS are COOL.  My husband was quick to point out that a Bradley fighting vehicle is NOT a tank.  He was pleased to hear that there were real tanks at the celebration.  Most military folk like military tech and military history. 

I personally LOVED the men's chorus. So beautiful; they sang the song of each branch of the military.

I agree: it's fucking fantastic to parade examples of the weaponry being sold to the Saudis for the specific purpose of bombing and killing Yemeni civilians. Whoop it up for freedom, liberty, and dismembering inconvenient journalists with a bone saw while they're still alive

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2230
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7566 on: July 05, 2019, 10:04:46 AM »
I'm breathing a sigh of relief that Trump's July 4th was basically a non-event.  I only wish it actually was not an event at all wasting taxpayer dollars.  I'd much rather we celebrate our independence and beautiful country at the National Parks which were robbed to pay for fuel and extra pollution moving around military equipment unnecessarily (unless you think stroking Trump's ego is necessary).

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2163
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7567 on: July 05, 2019, 10:11:21 AM »
Conversation at next N Korea summit:

Trump: Did you see my 4th of July Parade?
 Kim: Yes.
Trump: The tanks were great, eh?
Kim: ...
Trump: What?
Kim: Why didnít you show off the nukes? We always make sure to roll big missiles too.
Trump: ...

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7568 on: July 05, 2019, 10:11:53 AM »
I don't know if there was that much waste involved.  These planes and helicopters will be flown anyway on training missions.  It's not like they are just getting parked and collecting dust.  The Blue Angels pilots fly shows all summer long to entertain the public.  Moving the tanks and other military vehicles into DC was a project, for sure. 

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 10567
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7569 on: July 05, 2019, 10:27:37 AM »
Independence Day is not a military holiday.

Only if you totally separate the piece of paper from the American Revolution.  They generally go together.

I don't believe they do.  The holiday is Independence Day, not Revolutionary War day.  The date - July 4th - is important as that's when the declaration of independence was signed and the US officially declared sovereignty from Great Britton. 
Note that when the declaration was signed, we had already been at war for over a year, and the date we celebrate is not April 19th (when the Battle of Lexington occurred kicking off the war) nor October 19th when the surrender of Yorktown ended the conflict.  Not much of any military significance occurred on July 4th of any year during that war.
We are not celebrating any great military victory or accomplishment every July 4th.  It's not a military holiday.  It's the symbolic birth of our country.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2230
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7570 on: July 05, 2019, 10:56:55 AM »
Independence Day is not a military holiday.

Only if you totally separate the piece of paper from the American Revolution.  They generally go together.

I don't believe they do.  The holiday is Independence Day, not Revolutionary War day.  The date - July 4th - is important as that's when the declaration of independence was signed and the US officially declared sovereignty from Great Britton. 
Note that when the declaration was signed, we had already been at war for over a year, and the date we celebrate is not April 19th (when the Battle of Lexington occurred kicking off the war) nor October 19th when the surrender of Yorktown ended the conflict.  Not much of any military significance occurred on July 4th of any year during that war.
We are not celebrating any great military victory or accomplishment every July 4th.  It's not a military holiday.  It's the symbolic birth of our country.

This, exactly.  Why would America wait 200+ years to turn July 4th into a military holiday?  Trump is modeling this parade on France's Bastille Day, which is ironic on so many levels...  lets' see, America is now copying France because they do independence day better?  America is jealous because our July 4th signing of a Declaration of Independence wasn't good enough so we should just throw around military hardware for the heck of it?  Maybe we'll be as cool as the French someday.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7571 on: July 05, 2019, 11:30:08 AM »
Itís horrifying. I canít believe that my tax dollars that are supposed to go to maintaining the national parks are instead going to a campaign rally for a person I abhor.

I watched some video of the 4th celebration and thought it was fantastic. It wouldn't matter which president put it together, it was a wonderful acknowledgement of our military's history and strength today.  The choir and band were fantastic. A lot of appreciation for our military forces and the sacrifices Americans have made throughout history in defense of our country and in defense of freedom around the world.

The 4th of July is a patriotic holiday and it was a patriotic celebration.

Nothing about it was about Trump.  It was about showing respect for the American armed forces and their service to our country. Proud to be an American.

Yes!  Very well said.  I agree whole-heartedly including your other comments.  It's disappointing there are so many non-patriots these days.

I wish I could have been there for the big celebration!

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2163
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7572 on: July 05, 2019, 12:24:32 PM »
Itís horrifying. I canít believe that my tax dollars that are supposed to go to maintaining the national parks are instead going to a campaign rally for a person I abhor.

I watched some video of the 4th celebration and thought it was fantastic. It wouldn't matter which president put it together, it was a wonderful acknowledgement of our military's history and strength today.  The choir and band were fantastic. A lot of appreciation for our military forces and the sacrifices Americans have made throughout history in defense of our country and in defense of freedom around the world.

The 4th of July is a patriotic holiday and it was a patriotic celebration.

Nothing about it was about Trump.  It was about showing respect for the American armed forces and their service to our country. Proud to be an American.

Yes!  Very well said.  I agree whole-heartedly including your other comments.  It's disappointing there are so many non-patriots these days.

I wish I could have been there for the big celebration!
Please do not conflate distaste for a military celebration with lack of patriotism. Not all patriotism is expressed by flag waving.

One of the things that I think America can be proudest of is a government structure in which the military is explicitly placed under the command of the civilian branches of government. This reinforces that we are a nation of laws rather than a nation ruled by force. In that vein, calling people who do not jump at every display of military might non-patriotic is disturbing. I think that fostering a culture in which the military cannot be questioned is erosive to our democratic norms and intent to have rule of law. Disliking Turmp's politicization of the military is not unpatriotic and I would encourage you to consider that it can also be fundamentally American and deeply patriotic to be disturbed by it.


EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2230
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7573 on: July 05, 2019, 12:56:05 PM »
Itís horrifying. I canít believe that my tax dollars that are supposed to go to maintaining the national parks are instead going to a campaign rally for a person I abhor.

I watched some video of the 4th celebration and thought it was fantastic. It wouldn't matter which president put it together, it was a wonderful acknowledgement of our military's history and strength today.  The choir and band were fantastic. A lot of appreciation for our military forces and the sacrifices Americans have made throughout history in defense of our country and in defense of freedom around the world.

The 4th of July is a patriotic holiday and it was a patriotic celebration.

Nothing about it was about Trump.  It was about showing respect for the American armed forces and their service to our country. Proud to be an American.

Yes!  Very well said.  I agree whole-heartedly including your other comments.  It's disappointing there are so many non-patriots these days.

I wish I could have been there for the big celebration!

It's only 'disappointing' that you think that people standing up for their own beliefs on Independence Day are not being patriotic. 

Or did you mean to say, It's disappointing that there are so many non-Nationalists these days?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 12:59:06 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7574 on: July 05, 2019, 01:42:22 PM »
Itís horrifying. I canít believe that my tax dollars that are supposed to go to maintaining the national parks are instead going to a campaign rally for a person I abhor.

I watched some video of the 4th celebration and thought it was fantastic. It wouldn't matter which president put it together, it was a wonderful acknowledgement of our military's history and strength today.  The choir and band were fantastic. A lot of appreciation for our military forces and the sacrifices Americans have made throughout history in defense of our country and in defense of freedom around the world.

The 4th of July is a patriotic holiday and it was a patriotic celebration.

Nothing about it was about Trump.  It was about showing respect for the American armed forces and their service to our country. Proud to be an American.

Yes!  Very well said.  I agree whole-heartedly including your other comments.  It's disappointing there are so many non-patriots these days.

I wish I could have been there for the big celebration!

It's only 'disappointing' that you think that people standing up for their own beliefs on Independence Day are not being patriotic. 

Or did you mean to say, It's disappointing that there are so many non-Nationalists these days?

No, the problem is people are putting partisanship over patriotism, if they even have any.  This wasn't about Trump - they're just making it out to be.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7575 on: July 05, 2019, 02:12:50 PM »
I think it's interesting that people burned a flag in front of the White House, and other people interfered and tried to stomp out the fire.   I've watched two flag burning/extinguishing videos -- in one, a veteran grabs the flag and extinguishes the fire, and the MAGA and communists clash.  In other, police use a fire extinguisher on the burning flag.

Go ahead, burn the flags, but don't expect anyone to like it.

Dabnasty

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1808
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7576 on: July 05, 2019, 02:50:19 PM »
Itís horrifying. I canít believe that my tax dollars that are supposed to go to maintaining the national parks are instead going to a campaign rally for a person I abhor.

I watched some video of the 4th celebration and thought it was fantastic. It wouldn't matter which president put it together, it was a wonderful acknowledgement of our military's history and strength today.  The choir and band were fantastic. A lot of appreciation for our military forces and the sacrifices Americans have made throughout history in defense of our country and in defense of freedom around the world.

The 4th of July is a patriotic holiday and it was a patriotic celebration.

Nothing about it was about Trump.  It was about showing respect for the American armed forces and their service to our country. Proud to be an American.

Yes!  Very well said.  I agree whole-heartedly including your other comments.  It's disappointing there are so many non-patriots these days.

I wish I could have been there for the big celebration!

It's only 'disappointing' that you think that people standing up for their own beliefs on Independence Day are not being patriotic. 

Or did you mean to say, It's disappointing that there are so many non-Nationalists these days?

No, the problem is people are putting partisanship over patriotism, if they even have any.  This wasn't about Trump - they're just making it out to be.

Much of the criticism is of parading military equipment and taking money away from it's budgeted purpose, not Trump directly. I don't like military parades with displays of power*. I think it sends the wrong message about who we are and glorifies war. I don't like that money was taken from the parks' budget. I believe that the national parks are one of the best parts of the US and I'm proud of my country for creating and maintaining them.

And for those who criticized him for making it about him beforehand, well they're just using basic reason. If someone does something repeatedly and then I predict they will do it this time as well but they don't, my prediction may be wrong but my reasoning is not. (I've not watched or listened to anything regarding the event so I'm not commenting on how he actually handled it.)

I'm with Glenstache on this one, your understanding of patriotism is disturbing.

*I mean, I'd like to watch it because tanks and planes are badass, but I still think it's a bad idea.

JLee

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5557
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7577 on: July 05, 2019, 02:59:29 PM »
Itís horrifying. I canít believe that my tax dollars that are supposed to go to maintaining the national parks are instead going to a campaign rally for a person I abhor.

I watched some video of the 4th celebration and thought it was fantastic. It wouldn't matter which president put it together, it was a wonderful acknowledgement of our military's history and strength today.  The choir and band were fantastic. A lot of appreciation for our military forces and the sacrifices Americans have made throughout history in defense of our country and in defense of freedom around the world.

The 4th of July is a patriotic holiday and it was a patriotic celebration.

Nothing about it was about Trump.  It was about showing respect for the American armed forces and their service to our country. Proud to be an American.

Why does patriotism == military?

Samuel

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: the slippery slope
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7578 on: July 05, 2019, 03:02:15 PM »
Given Trump's track record of inserting self aggrandizing and inappropriately partisan crap into speeches I think there were legitimate reasons to be concerned about the event.

But the speech was tame and the military involvement modest (the non-VIP's couldn't even see the tanks, it turns out), so I think the more the left hammers on it the better Trump looks. The distribution of VIP tickets to only Republicans, their donors, and the military is a legitimate problem but is low on the Trump scale of unscrupulousness so it'll not catch on.

Samuel

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: the slippery slope
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7579 on: July 05, 2019, 03:07:58 PM »
I think it's interesting that people burned a flag in front of the White House, and other people interfered and tried to stomp out the fire.   I've watched two flag burning/extinguishing videos -- in one, a veteran grabs the flag and extinguishes the fire, and the MAGA and communists clash.  In other, police use a fire extinguisher on the burning flag.

Go ahead, burn the flags, but don't expect anyone to like it.

I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
-Craig Washington

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7580 on: July 05, 2019, 03:29:41 PM »
Itís horrifying. I canít believe that my tax dollars that are supposed to go to maintaining the national parks are instead going to a campaign rally for a person I abhor.

I watched some video of the 4th celebration and thought it was fantastic. It wouldn't matter which president put it together, it was a wonderful acknowledgement of our military's history and strength today.  The choir and band were fantastic. A lot of appreciation for our military forces and the sacrifices Americans have made throughout history in defense of our country and in defense of freedom around the world.

The 4th of July is a patriotic holiday and it was a patriotic celebration.

Nothing about it was about Trump.  It was about showing respect for the American armed forces and their service to our country. Proud to be an American.

Yes!  Very well said.  I agree whole-heartedly including your other comments.  It's disappointing there are so many non-patriots these days.

I wish I could have been there for the big celebration!

It's only 'disappointing' that you think that people standing up for their own beliefs on Independence Day are not being patriotic. 

Or did you mean to say, It's disappointing that there are so many non-Nationalists these days?

No, the problem is people are putting partisanship over patriotism, if they even have any.  This wasn't about Trump - they're just making it out to be.

I'm with Glenstache on this one, your understanding of patriotism is disturbing.

*I mean, I'd like to watch it because tanks and planes are badass, but I still think it's a bad idea.

Well, I'm ex-military, and my patriotism runs deep.  If you find it disturbing that I am a true patriot, well that's just sad and supports what I have been stating in previous comments.  And again, that is just someone's opinion, so it doesn't affect me.

Glenstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2163
  • Location: Seattle!
  • Target FI date 2027 (maybe?)
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7581 on: July 05, 2019, 04:01:08 PM »
Well, I'm ex-military, and my patriotism runs deep.  If you find it disturbing that I am a true patriot, well that's just sad and supports what I have been stating in previous comments.  And again, that is just someone's opinion, so it doesn't affect me.

Nobody here is arguing that you are not a patriot. People are simply asking you to consider that others may not view aggrandizing the military as synonymous with patriotism. The military is an important part of our country, but not the defining element of it.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7582 on: July 05, 2019, 04:29:39 PM »
Itís horrifying. I canít believe that my tax dollars that are supposed to go to maintaining the national parks are instead going to a campaign rally for a person I abhor.

I watched some video of the 4th celebration and thought it was fantastic. It wouldn't matter which president put it together, it was a wonderful acknowledgement of our military's history and strength today.  The choir and band were fantastic. A lot of appreciation for our military forces and the sacrifices Americans have made throughout history in defense of our country and in defense of freedom around the world.

The 4th of July is a patriotic holiday and it was a patriotic celebration.

Nothing about it was about Trump.  It was about showing respect for the American armed forces and their service to our country. Proud to be an American.

Yes!  Very well said.  I agree whole-heartedly including your other comments.  It's disappointing there are so many non-patriots these days.

I wish I could have been there for the big celebration!

It's only 'disappointing' that you think that people standing up for their own beliefs on Independence Day are not being patriotic. 

Or did you mean to say, It's disappointing that there are so many non-Nationalists these days?

No, the problem is people are putting partisanship over patriotism, if they even have any.  This wasn't about Trump - they're just making it out to be.

Much of the criticism is of parading military equipment and taking money away from it's budgeted purpose, not Trump directly. I don't like military parades with displays of power*. I think it sends the wrong message about who we are and glorifies war. I don't like that money was taken from the parks' budget. I believe that the national parks are one of the best parts of the US and I'm proud of my country for creating and maintaining them.

And for those who criticized him for making it about him beforehand, well they're just using basic reason. If someone does something repeatedly and then I predict they will do it this time as well but they don't, my prediction may be wrong but my reasoning is not. (I've not watched or listened to anything regarding the event so I'm not commenting on how he actually handled it.)

I'm with Glenstache on this one, your understanding of patriotism is disturbing.

*I mean, I'd like to watch it because tanks and planes are badass, but I still think it's a bad idea.

There's Youtube video of the flyovers only -- it's neat.  Go ahead and enjoy them!  There are many because each branch of the military is represented and honored.  And, OMG that mens choir.  I must be getting old, but I am truly thrilled with the music.

Coast Guard
Air Force
Navy
Marines
Army

Bonus: Blue Angels -- looking really good

In between the flyovers, Trump's speech covered some history and highlights and gave great praise to each form of the US military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYUzhYL4aD4

« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 04:33:04 PM by KBecks »

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9492
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7583 on: July 05, 2019, 04:46:28 PM »
Here's the link to the full speech transcript, should anyone want to comment pro/con on the actual words.

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2230
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7584 on: July 05, 2019, 06:19:28 PM »
Here's the link to the full speech transcript, should anyone want to comment pro/con on the actual words.

Here's a link to Obama's speech in 2016, if you want to comment on that too.  I'm not really sure what the point of all this is.

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9492
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7585 on: July 05, 2019, 06:36:30 PM »
Here's a link to Obama's speech in 2016, if you want to comment on that too.  I'm not really sure what the point of all this is.
That would probably be appropriate in a thread titled "So Let's Review the Past of a Full Obama Presidency..."

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2230
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7586 on: July 05, 2019, 06:42:37 PM »
Here's the link to the full speech transcript, should anyone want to comment pro/con on the actual words.

Here's a link to Obama's speech in 2016, if you want to comment on that too.  I'm not really sure what the point of all this is.

@MDM I think this is relevant here because you can see the difference in the speeches, hence the potential relevance, but I still wonder why we need to comment on either speech?

MDM

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9492
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7587 on: July 05, 2019, 06:52:42 PM »
Here's the link to the full speech transcript, should anyone want to comment pro/con on the actual words.
Here's a link to Obama's speech in 2016, if you want to comment on that too.  I'm not really sure what the point of all this is.
@MDM I think this is relevant here because you can see the difference in the speeches, hence the potential relevance, but I still wonder why we need to comment on either speech?
As the saying goes, all we need to do is die and pay taxes.  But some people like to comment on all and sundry.  I didn't listen to Trump's speech, but was curious as to what he said.  Had to go to the second page (the horror!) of a Google search to find the full text, so in case anyone else was curious....

Kyle Schuant

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 750
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7588 on: July 05, 2019, 07:31:07 PM »
Why does patriotism == military?
It's patriotism with no knowledge of their country's history. The founders of the US were actually hostile to a standing army.

https://teachinghistory.org/history-content/ask-a-historian/24671

This hostility has a long tradition in the USA's British forebears, too. Constitutionally in the UK there is no permanent standing army, but the parliament passes a British Army Act every five years. The idea was that you do need an army during an emergency, but if you have a standing army, the executive (in this case, the monarch, in the US case, the President) may use the military to rule the people.

The sort of patriot who speaks a lot about the Founding Fathers would, logically, be opposed to any standing army at all, instead supporting only a local and unpaid militia. But of course many of the loudest "patriots" are entirely ignorant of their country's history. For example we in Australia had a PM Tony Abbott who said he thought the Australian flag should never be changed because of its long history, but he didn't know how many points there were on the Federation Star (he thought 6, it's 7).

I would say that true patriotism can come only from a knowledge of your country's history and traditions.

FIREstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 642
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7589 on: July 05, 2019, 10:44:01 PM »


I am persuaded, and as fully convinced as I am of any one fact that has happened, that our liberties must of necessity be greatly hazarded, if not entirely lost, if their defence is left to any but a permanent standing army.

                                                                                                        George Washington, 1776

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4417
  • Location: Avalon
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7590 on: July 06, 2019, 02:14:10 AM »

In between the flyovers, Trump's speech covered some history and highlights and gave great praise to each form of the US military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYUzhYL4aD4

That's the history in which revolutionary forces seized the airports, right?

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7591 on: July 06, 2019, 06:17:24 AM »
Just a reminder, since it was pointedly ignored the first time I pointed it out:

Some of those weapons you're thrilled by the sight of are being sold to the Saudis in full knowledge that they're being used by a regime which dismembered an American green card holder with a bone saw while he was still alive. They're being used to bomb and kill thousands of Yemeni civilians and to prosecute a war that is triggering an entirely preventable famine. They do not represent freedom to the rest of the world: they represent dying children and butchered journalists.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 06:28:59 AM by runbikerun »

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7592 on: July 06, 2019, 06:17:34 AM »

In between the flyovers, Trump's speech covered some history and highlights and gave great praise to each form of the US military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYUzhYL4aD4

That's the history in which revolutionary forces seized the airports, right?

Har dee har har.  Yes.  Gaffes happen.  It was a fantastic speech.

runbikerun

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 462
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7593 on: July 06, 2019, 06:24:11 AM »
Har dee har har.  Yes.  Gaffes happen.  It was a fantastic speech.

It was not.

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4269
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7594 on: July 06, 2019, 07:33:46 AM »


I am persuaded, and as fully convinced as I am of any one fact that has happened, that our liberties must of necessity be greatly hazarded, if not entirely lost, if their defence is left to any but a permanent standing army.

                                                                                                        George Washington, 1776

Yes, yes, we know. Countries need armies.

That doesnít mean we have to make military worship our religion.

former player

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4417
  • Location: Avalon
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7595 on: July 06, 2019, 07:41:01 AM »

In between the flyovers, Trump's speech covered some history and highlights and gave great praise to each form of the US military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYUzhYL4aD4

That's the history in which revolutionary forces seized the airports, right?

Har dee har har.  Yes.  Gaffes happen.  It was a fantastic speech.
Apparently fundamental ignorance of human history also happens.


Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4269
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7596 on: July 06, 2019, 07:49:17 AM »

In between the flyovers, Trump's speech covered some history and highlights and gave great praise to each form of the US military.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYUzhYL4aD4

That's the history in which revolutionary forces seized the airports, right?

Har dee har har.  Yes.  Gaffes happen.  It was a fantastic speech.
Apparently fundamental ignorance of human history also happens.

Now, now. Apparently it was the bad bad TeleprompTer that told him to say that because of the rain.

Which, as excuses go, is pretty WTF... but for Trump, itís about par for the course.

KBecks

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1790
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7597 on: July 06, 2019, 07:56:57 AM »


I am persuaded, and as fully convinced as I am of any one fact that has happened, that our liberties must of necessity be greatly hazarded, if not entirely lost, if their defence is left to any but a permanent standing army.

                                                                                                        George Washington, 1776

Yes, yes, we know. Countries need armies.

That doesnít mean we have to make military worship our religion.

A minor airshow on the 4th of July is not military worship.

MasterStache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2138
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7598 on: July 06, 2019, 08:05:08 AM »
As a veteran I celebrated Independence Day by camping and hiking in a National Park. I figured I would voice my own disagreement in a different way. I have found myself, more times than I can count, uttering the words "I though we were better than this." Apparently not. Tanks and planes in DC? Hell yes! National Park Service? Umm fuck off, who needs parks? I was happy to meet a few other veterans on the trail enjoying our parks as well. 

Kris

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4269
Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #7599 on: July 06, 2019, 09:02:30 AM »


I am persuaded, and as fully convinced as I am of any one fact that has happened, that our liberties must of necessity be greatly hazarded, if not entirely lost, if their defence is left to any but a permanent standing army.

                                                                                                        George Washington, 1776

Yes, yes, we know. Countries need armies.

That doesnít mean we have to make military worship our religion.

A minor airshow on the 4th of July is not military worship.

My comment was not a reply to you.