Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 657348 times)

Roadrunner53

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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6901 on: April 25, 2019, 09:05:37 AM »
Is Trump's handling of Energy, Interior, and EPA different from what Jeb Bush or Ted Cruz would have done?

I seem to recall there being an applause line about eliminating those departments in previous GOP primaries.

Sincere question.

I'd say it's different from what Jeb Bush would have done.

Probably not Ted Cruz, though.

I don't even think Texas Ted would've been quite so aggressive in investing in coal, slashing regulations, trying to open up Florida and California for offshore drilling and having anti-environmentalists running the EPA.  Trump basically signs everything industry wants and tramples progressive Obama regulations for fun.  Renewable energy, clean energy - why subsidize that when there's still coal in Pennsylvania?  Even Ted would not make claims like wind-farms cause cancer.  My last shred of hope is that it has become almost impossible to ignore climate change.  Sure, it's past the point of being too late already, but it's hard to get people to ignore freak snowstorms, 100 year floods that happen every year, etc.   Quite unfortunate that the US has an outsize influence, for it's population, for the amount of CO2 we generate - not the place where you want to have a pro-business, anti-climate guy in charge if you want to start addressing this.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6902 on: April 25, 2019, 10:47:27 AM »
Is Trump's handling of Energy, Interior, and EPA different from what Jeb Bush or Ted Cruz would have done?

I seem to recall there being an applause line about eliminating those departments in previous GOP primaries.

Sincere question.

I'd say it's different from what Jeb Bush would have done.

Probably not Ted Cruz, though.

I don't even think Texas Ted would've been quite so aggressive in investing in coal, slashing regulations, trying to open up Florida and California for offshore drilling and having anti-environmentalists running the EPA.  Trump basically signs everything industry wants and tramples progressive Obama regulations for fun.  Renewable energy, clean energy - why subsidize that when there's still coal in Pennsylvania?  Even Ted would not make claims like wind-farms cause cancer.  My last shred of hope is that it has become almost impossible to ignore climate change.  Sure, it's past the point of being too late already, but it's hard to get people to ignore freak snowstorms, 100 year floods that happen every year, etc.   Quite unfortunate that the US has an outsize influence, for it's population, for the amount of CO2 we generate - not the place where you want to have a pro-business, anti-climate guy in charge if you want to start addressing this.

Why care about climate change when the Rapture is just around the corner. While this may sound snide, there is a significant portion of the country that is not invested in long term planning literally because Jesus will take care of it all pretty soon anyways. I've been in discussion about long term planning for facilities (publicly owned effectively indefinite operation facilities) where managers of faith have indicated that 50 year planning isn't so important for that very reason. Here's some data indicating that 41% of Americans think the Rapture is just around the corner (ie, before 2050).
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/07/14/jesus-christs-return-to-earth/

Those minds are not likely to be changed by science or rational arguments. So, yes, many people find it hard to ignore climate change. But there are a hell of a lot of people who are just fine with ignoring it. It's maddening.

Cool Friend

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6903 on: April 25, 2019, 11:38:33 AM »
I swear human myopia will eventually be the end of our species.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6904 on: April 25, 2019, 11:58:18 AM »
Maybe they think climate change is a sign of the coming Rapture?

But seriously, large percentage of people believing it's the end of the world, has been going on for centuries.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6905 on: April 25, 2019, 12:04:24 PM »
I swear human myopia will eventually be the end of our species.

Agreed. I've been saying this for a while now: We're too dumb to be this smart.

LennStar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6906 on: April 25, 2019, 02:28:05 PM »
Maybe they think climate change is a sign of the coming Rapture?

But seriously, large percentage of people believing it's the end of the world, has been going on for centuries.
Yeah, but in the past they at least had the decency to jump from bridges or poison themselves so you did not need to bother about them destroying your life too. Today's nuts just don't have the backbone of real faith anymore!

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6907 on: April 25, 2019, 06:41:49 PM »
Unfortunately for people predicting the end of the world, it's impossible to win.  Either you're right and won't have the chance to brag about it, or you're totally wrong and kinda end up looking like an idiot.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6908 on: April 25, 2019, 08:00:17 PM »
Unfortunately for people predicting the end of the world, it's impossible to win.  Either you're right and won't have the chance to brag about it, or you're totally wrong and kinda end up looking like an idiot.

Someone will be right at some point, but it seems a weird thing to be satisfied about. Was Noah, like, yeah in your face! I was RIGHT. Or more dang, everything I know and love is being destroyed...

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6909 on: April 25, 2019, 08:42:49 PM »
Unfortunately for people predicting the end of the world, it's impossible to win.  Either you're right and won't have the chance to brag about it, or you're totally wrong and kinda end up looking like an idiot.

Someone will be right at some point, but it seems a weird thing to be satisfied about. Was Noah, like, yeah in your face! I was RIGHT. Or more dang, everything I know and love is being destroyed...

Many years ago my roommate was a 'prepper'.  She was only half-way down the rabbit hole but she had several friends who were into some serious, 'the-end-is-neigh' kind of crazy.  Sometimes, listening to them talk I got the sensation that they were abstractly looking forward to the collapse of civilization, and I got the feeling they were a little disappointed every month that went by and things kept ticking along.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6910 on: April 25, 2019, 09:11:14 PM »
Unfortunately for people predicting the end of the world, it's impossible to win.  Either you're right and won't have the chance to brag about it, or you're totally wrong and kinda end up looking like an idiot.

Someone will be right at some point, but it seems a weird thing to be satisfied about. Was Noah, like, yeah in your face! I was RIGHT. Or more dang, everything I know and love is being destroyed...

Many years ago my roommate was a 'prepper'.  She was only half-way down the rabbit hole but she had several friends who were into some serious, 'the-end-is-neigh' kind of crazy.  Sometimes, listening to them talk I got the sensation that they were abstractly looking forward to the collapse of civilization, and I got the feeling they were a little disappointed every month that went by and things kept ticking along.


One of the craziest dudes I’ve known was a prepper. Insane ammosexual — sorry, but it’s true, almost all he could talk about was guns and this crazy Mad Max future where he saw himself as some sort of testosterone superhero even though he was a freckled sun-averse dude with a beer belly. But he was a climate change denier to boot... which made me laugh because climate change is probably the one scenario that will potentially create his fantasy dystopia. He forced his wife (who was the one I was friends with) to stop being friends with me because he picked a fight with me about climate change and got mad that I challenged him. To this day, I think she is in an emotionally abusive relationship that she thinks is just him loving her so much more than anyone else has ever loved her, instead of him being a jealous, possessive misogynistic asshole.

The crazy ass fantasy world they lived in was just nuts to me. Funnily, they were also really into Renaissance fest kinds of reenactments, too.

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6911 on: April 25, 2019, 10:14:38 PM »
Anyone in the Bay Area remember back in 2010 or thereabouts there was some crazy dude who predicted the end of the world or rapture or second coming of Jesus or something? He took out all of these billboards stating the world was ending on some specific date, and even stated “the Bible guarantees it!”. Naturally he missed the date and did some re-calculation for a new date some weeks in the future, and then faded off into the sunset.

I passed one of those billboards on my way to work and it always gave me a smile.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6912 on: April 26, 2019, 05:51:26 AM »
Unfortunately for people predicting the end of the world, it's impossible to win.  Either you're right and won't have the chance to brag about it, or you're totally wrong and kinda end up looking like an idiot.

Someone will be right at some point, but it seems a weird thing to be satisfied about. Was Noah, like, yeah in your face! I was RIGHT. Or more dang, everything I know and love is being destroyed...

Many years ago my roommate was a 'prepper'.  She was only half-way down the rabbit hole but she had several friends who were into some serious, 'the-end-is-neigh' kind of crazy.  Sometimes, listening to them talk I got the sensation that they were abstractly looking forward to the collapse of civilization, and I got the feeling they were a little disappointed every month that went by and things kept ticking along.

My son occasionally watches the show "preppers." These people spend gobs of money so they can live underground, eating canned food, while most of civilization is wiped from the planet. Who knows how many years they might have to hunker down. Sounds like a shitty way to live now and definitely in the future. I think I would rather be part of the rapture.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6913 on: April 26, 2019, 07:10:14 AM »
Unfortunately for people predicting the end of the world, it's impossible to win.  Either you're right and won't have the chance to brag about it, or you're totally wrong and kinda end up looking like an idiot.

Someone will be right at some point, but it seems a weird thing to be satisfied about. Was Noah, like, yeah in your face! I was RIGHT. Or more dang, everything I know and love is being destroyed...

According to the bible Noah was 750 years old at the time of the flood.  Given this, he could not have been human so we can't assume that he had human emotions or motivations.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6914 on: April 26, 2019, 08:33:27 AM »
In a surprising and dramatic reversal, the President of the United States is no longer an anti-vaxxer. 

This morning he recommended that parents have their kids vaccinated for measles because there have been over 600 new cases of measles in the US this year.  So, we've got that going for us at least. 

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6915 on: April 26, 2019, 08:54:20 AM »
In a surprising and dramatic reversal, the President of the United States is no longer an anti-vaxxer. 

This morning he recommended that parents have their kids vaccinated for measles because there have been over 600 new cases of measles in the US this year.  So, we've got that going for us at least.

Lol. Until Fox and Friends tells him the opposite. Which will probably be tomorrow.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6916 on: April 26, 2019, 08:55:21 AM »
In a surprising and dramatic reversal, the President of the United States is no longer an anti-vaxxer. 

This morning he recommended that parents have their kids vaccinated for measles because there have been over 600 new cases of measles in the US this year.  So, we've got that going for us at least.
It feels like watching a compass spin in all random directions if broken or isolated from a magnetic field. Eventually it will point in the right direction, if only briefly, but it osent actually mean it is guided by any underlying principle.

I get what you are saying though about being grateful for any moment of reasonableness when it pops up.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6917 on: April 26, 2019, 09:04:49 AM »
In a surprising and dramatic reversal, the President of the United States is no longer an anti-vaxxer. 

This morning he recommended that parents have their kids vaccinated for measles because there have been over 600 new cases of measles in the US this year.  So, we've got that going for us at least.

It's quite a relief, once we are on the verge of an epidemic of a disease that was virtually eliminated in 2000, that Trump can change course!  Go US!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6918 on: April 26, 2019, 09:11:50 AM »
Wow, did the President of the United States just speak about himself in the 3rd person from someone else's Government position in a Tweet that he wrote?  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48059680

Quote
“President Donald J. Trump is the greatest hostage negotiator that I know of in the history of the United States. 20 hostages, many in impossible circumstances, have been released in last two years. No money was paid.” Cheif Hostage Negotiator, USA!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 09:16:49 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

Laserjet3051

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6919 on: April 26, 2019, 09:30:56 AM »
I try to focus more on what politicians actually DO, rather than the blather they spew from their mouths, all parties, all levels of government. That said, whats this with Q1 GDP coming in at 3.2%? I thought Obama told us the new normal was 1.5% growth?

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6920 on: April 26, 2019, 10:12:50 AM »
I try to focus more on what politicians actually DO, rather than the blather they spew from their mouths, all parties, all levels of government. That said, whats this with Q1 GDP coming in at 3.2%? I thought Obama told us the new normal was 1.5% growth?
The Fed is typically credited with GDP growth and handling the economy, which is (supposed to be) a non-political arm of the government.  You say you ignore what politicians say and then quote Obama? 

But yes, I'm happy with GDP growth over 2%.  I believe a lot of it has to do with tax cuts (and increased deficits) as well as an accommodating Fed. 

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6921 on: April 26, 2019, 10:17:15 AM »
I try to focus more on what politicians actually DO, rather than the blather they spew from their mouths, all parties, all levels of government. That said, whats this with Q1 GDP coming in at 3.2%? I thought Obama told us the new normal was 1.5% growth?
The Fed is typically credited with GDP growth and handling the economy, which is (supposed to be) a non-political arm of the government.  You say you ignore what politicians say and then quote Obama? 

But yes, I'm happy with GDP growth over 2%.  I believe a lot of it has to do with tax cuts (and increased deficits) as well as an accommodating Fed.

Yes. The Fed whose chair Trump doesn't like and would like to get rid of.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-to-fed-chairman-powell-i-guess-im-stuck-with-you-11554238931

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6922 on: April 26, 2019, 10:31:25 AM »
I try to focus more on what politicians actually DO, rather than the blather they spew from their mouths, all parties, all levels of government. That said, whats this with Q1 GDP coming in at 3.2%? I thought Obama told us the new normal was 1.5% growth?
The Fed is typically credited with GDP growth and handling the economy, which is (supposed to be) a non-political arm of the government.  You say you ignore what politicians say and then quote Obama?

haha, good point

Quote
But yes, I'm happy with GDP growth over 2%.  I believe a lot of it has to do with tax cuts (and increased deficits) as well as an accommodating Fed.

GDP growth shouldn't come as a surprise when policy is focused on short term benefit with little concern for long term consequences. Not to mention GDP is a poor measure of economic health. Even less so the health of our government's financial stability.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6923 on: April 26, 2019, 10:45:00 AM »
Anyone in the Bay Area remember back in 2010 or thereabouts there was some crazy dude who predicted the end of the world or rapture or second coming of Jesus or something? He took out all of these billboards stating the world was ending on some specific date, and even stated “the Bible guarantees it!”. Naturally he missed the date and did some re-calculation for a new date some weeks in the future, and then faded off into the sunset.

I passed one of those billboards on my way to work and it always gave me a smile.

I  remember a man named Harold Camping.

I think  he's the one you refer to.

His  TV show  was called Open Forum.

I believe that Camping was a true believer and not a charlatan.

IIRC, Camping earned his degree in civil engineering from UC Berkeley.

As I recall his religious radio/TV network was valued @ ~$80 million.

My surmise, which is utterly uninformed,  is that Camping's mathematics-based approach to Biblical interpretation and prognostication is somehow attributable to the mathematics required of  students who earn  degrees in civil engineering.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 11:00:56 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6924 on: April 26, 2019, 10:53:34 AM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-calls-mueller-investigation-attempted-overthrow-of-the-government-today-2019-04-25/

Trump is saying our legal processes are attempts to overthrow the government.

If he loses the next election, we may be be in for an interesting time.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6925 on: April 26, 2019, 10:54:01 AM »
Deleted.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 11:04:27 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6926 on: April 26, 2019, 11:14:34 AM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-calls-mueller-investigation-attempted-overthrow-of-the-government-today-2019-04-25/

Trump is saying our legal processes are attempts to overthrow the government.

If he loses the next election, we may be be in for an interesting time.
It will be interesting to see the extent he attempts to explicitly use the power of the presidency against his rivals. That is, of course, illegal. However, that has not been an impediment to him in the past and it is unlikely to be an impediment in the future.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6927 on: April 26, 2019, 11:19:36 AM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-calls-mueller-investigation-attempted-overthrow-of-the-government-today-2019-04-25/

Trump is saying our legal processes are attempts to overthrow the government.

If he loses the next election, we may be be in for an interesting time.
It will be interesting to see the extent he attempts to explicitly use the power of the presidency against his rivals. That is, of course, illegal. However, that has not been an impediment to him in the past and it is unlikely to be an impediment in the future.

Don't forget, you can't investigate Trump for doing illegal things.  Because that's an attempt to overthrow the government.

AdrianC

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6928 on: April 26, 2019, 11:24:06 AM »
My surmise, which is utterly uninformed,  is that Camping's mathematics-based approach to Biblical interpretation and prognostication is somehow attributable to the mathematics required of  students who earn  degrees in civil engineering.
Nah, it's not his abilities with math. The problem is his initial premise - that the Bible has any useful information about future events.

caracarn

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6929 on: April 26, 2019, 12:04:30 PM »
Why care about climate change when the Rapture is just around the corner. While this may sound snide, there is a significant portion of the country that is not invested in long term planning literally because Jesus will take care of it all pretty soon anyways. I've been in discussion about long term planning for facilities (publicly owned effectively indefinite operation facilities) where managers of faith have indicated that 50 year planning isn't so important for that very reason. Here's some data indicating that 41% of Americans think the Rapture is just around the corner (ie, before 2050).
OK, so as a Christian I find this ridiculous and disheartening.  Our church might be expecting this someday, but we are not assuming it is imminent.  Churches have been doing that for 2,000 years, and there are a lot of multiples of 50 in there.  There are always churches that feel there are signs, which is not even Biblically based, but not the thread for getting into that.  It's stuff like this that makes it even more difficult for skeptics to even consider the possibility because "Christians" do not even understand what is going on.  Anyway, this is off topic anyway, so that's all I'll say on it as part of the group that does not know when.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6930 on: April 26, 2019, 12:08:29 PM »
Why care about climate change when the Rapture is just around the corner. While this may sound snide, there is a significant portion of the country that is not invested in long term planning literally because Jesus will take care of it all pretty soon anyways. I've been in discussion about long term planning for facilities (publicly owned effectively indefinite operation facilities) where managers of faith have indicated that 50 year planning isn't so important for that very reason. Here's some data indicating that 41% of Americans think the Rapture is just around the corner (ie, before 2050).
OK, so as a Christian I find this ridiculous and disheartening.  Our church might be expecting this someday, but we are not assuming it is imminent.  Churches have been doing that for 2,000 years, and there are a lot of multiples of 50 in there.  There are always churches that feel there are signs, which is not even Biblically based, but not the thread for getting into that.  It's stuff like this that makes it even more difficult for skeptics to even consider the possibility because "Christians" do not even understand what is going on.  Anyway, this is off topic anyway, so that's all I'll say on it as part of the group that does not know when.
I feel I should add that I also have many friends of faith who take seriously the parts of the bible that instruct them to be caretakers of the earth and feel it is an obligation to support environmentally-friendly policies and actions. There are many takes out there.

waltworks

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6931 on: April 26, 2019, 12:33:06 PM »
My surmise, which is utterly uninformed,  is that Camping's mathematics-based approach to Biblical interpretation and prognostication is somehow attributable to the mathematics required of  students who earn  degrees in civil engineering.

Camping's bible-numbers thing is the same sort of fallacy that gets people to go crazy making "technical analysis" stock price charts - if you look at things too hard, you see patterns that aren't there (or at least won't continue).

-W

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6932 on: April 26, 2019, 12:51:10 PM »
Why care about climate change when the Rapture is just around the corner. While this may sound snide, there is a significant portion of the country that is not invested in long term planning literally because Jesus will take care of it all pretty soon anyways. I've been in discussion about long term planning for facilities (publicly owned effectively indefinite operation facilities) where managers of faith have indicated that 50 year planning isn't so important for that very reason. Here's some data indicating that 41% of Americans think the Rapture is just around the corner (ie, before 2050).
OK, so as a Christian I find this ridiculous and disheartening.  Our church might be expecting this someday, but we are not assuming it is imminent.  Churches have been doing that for 2,000 years, and there are a lot of multiples of 50 in there.  There are always churches that feel there are signs, which is not even Biblically based, but not the thread for getting into that.  It's stuff like this that makes it even more difficult for skeptics to even consider the possibility because "Christians" do not even understand what is going on.  Anyway, this is off topic anyway, so that's all I'll say on it as part of the group that does not know when.

Continuing the off-topic, I was raised Greek Orthodox, which if you think about it is pretty close to the original "Church". It was not a slam dunk this was going to be included in the Bible. It is not part of the official Orthodox liturgy (not read in church). It wasn't considered appropriate to try to make predictions from it, because yeah it is hard to interpret, and as it says in other parts of the bible that only God knows the time. So just from my background I find it freaky when the 700 club and other televagelist really get into trying to interpret current events based on Revelations, because it feels a) political and b) missing the point of the Bible (how to live your life, not focus on end times).  eta the official term is "amillennialism" vs "premillennialism"

   
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 12:59:57 PM by partgypsy »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6933 on: April 26, 2019, 02:23:15 PM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-calls-mueller-investigation-attempted-overthrow-of-the-government-today-2019-04-25/

Trump is saying our legal processes are attempts to overthrow the government.

If he loses the next election, we may be be in for an interesting time.

What I find scary, is if he decides to claim a loss is illegitimate, I think the Republican party is so power hungry, that congressional leaders will just agree with him.  He's going to set up to claim there was voter fraud. If he wins, he'll say there wasn't. If he loses, he won't give up his office.

We are already in a Constitutional crisis where a branch of the government is bowing down to another instead of acting as equals. It doesn't strike me as far fetched to think the next election might just be the end of peaceful handovers of power.


JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6934 on: April 26, 2019, 02:58:25 PM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-calls-mueller-investigation-attempted-overthrow-of-the-government-today-2019-04-25/

Trump is saying our legal processes are attempts to overthrow the government.

If he loses the next election, we may be be in for an interesting time.

What I find scary, is if he decides to claim a loss is illegitimate, I think the Republican party is so power hungry, that congressional leaders will just agree with him.  He's going to set up to claim there was voter fraud. If he wins, he'll say there wasn't. If he loses, he won't give up his office.

We are already in a Constitutional crisis where a branch of the government is bowing down to another instead of acting as equals. It doesn't strike me as far fetched to think the next election might just be the end of peaceful handovers of power.

Or he'll say there still was, much like he did when he won last time.  The same investigation that he triumphantly trumpeted "NO COLLUSION" about is now something he's calling an attempted coup.  He's falling apart upstairs and nearly half the country is going with it. It's sickening.

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6935 on: April 26, 2019, 04:20:56 PM »
Why care about climate change when the Rapture is just around the corner. While this may sound snide, there is a significant portion of the country that is not invested in long term planning literally because Jesus will take care of it all pretty soon anyways. I've been in discussion about long term planning for facilities (publicly owned effectively indefinite operation facilities) where managers of faith have indicated that 50 year planning isn't so important for that very reason. Here's some data indicating that 41% of Americans think the Rapture is just around the corner (ie, before 2050).
OK, so as a Christian I find this ridiculous and disheartening.  Our church might be expecting this someday, but we are not assuming it is imminent.  Churches have been doing that for 2,000 years, and there are a lot of multiples of 50 in there.  There are always churches that feel there are signs, which is not even Biblically based, but not the thread for getting into that.  It's stuff like this that makes it even more difficult for skeptics to even consider the possibility because "Christians" do not even understand what is going on.  Anyway, this is off topic anyway, so that's all I'll say on it as part of the group that does not know when.

Continuing the off-topic, I was raised Greek Orthodox, which if you think about it is pretty close to the original "Church". It was not a slam dunk this was going to be included in the Bible. It is not part of the official Orthodox liturgy (not read in church). It wasn't considered appropriate to try to make predictions from it, because yeah it is hard to interpret, and as it says in other parts of the bible that only God knows the time. So just from my background I find it freaky when the 700 club and other televagelist really get into trying to interpret current events based on Revelations, because it feels a) political and b) missing the point of the Bible (how to live your life, not focus on end times).  eta the official term is "amillennialism" vs "premillennialism"

 
As a kid I was raised in a non-mainstream Christian flavor of religion that had origins of a group of people claiming to know when the second coming of Jesus would happen. They sold their belongings and went to wait on a hilltop for some dude who never showed up. So the line in the Bible about not knowing the time or day of the second coming was regularly brought up.

I don’t believe any of that stuff now, but that bit has always stuck with me. I realize it is impossible to actually follow the Bible since it is internally inconsistent and full of repugnant or culturally inappropriate stuff, but that was one bit I felt is a big deal to overlook for people falling down the rabbit hole of trying to see hidden messages and predictions.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6936 on: April 27, 2019, 06:37:41 AM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-calls-mueller-investigation-attempted-overthrow-of-the-government-today-2019-04-25/

Trump is saying our legal processes are attempts to overthrow the government.

If he loses the next election, we may be be in for an interesting time.

What I find scary, is if he decides to claim a loss is illegitimate, I think the Republican party is so power hungry, that congressional leaders will just agree with him.  He's going to set up to claim there was voter fraud. If he wins, he'll say there wasn't. If he loses, he won't give up his office.

We are already in a Constitutional crisis where a branch of the government is bowing down to another instead of acting as equals. It doesn't strike me as far fetched to think the next election might just be the end of peaceful handovers of power.

Or he'll say there still was, much like he did when he won last time.  The same investigation that he triumphantly trumpeted "NO COLLUSION" about is now something he's calling an attempted coup.  He's falling apart upstairs and nearly half the country is going with it. It's sickening.

It's good to remember that really only about 20% of the voting population over age 18 approve of Trump. 20% is certainly still pretty bad.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6937 on: April 27, 2019, 10:01:17 AM »
Sarah should quit. She has no credibility. Not to mention she is obnoxious like her boss.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/sam-donaldson-sarah-huckabee-sanders-liar_n_5cc3f9d5e4b04eb7ff9614f6

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6938 on: April 28, 2019, 06:42:05 AM »
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-calls-mueller-investigation-attempted-overthrow-of-the-government-today-2019-04-25/

Trump is saying our legal processes are attempts to overthrow the government.

If he loses the next election, we may be be in for an interesting time.

What I find scary, is if he decides to claim a loss is illegitimate, I think the Republican party is so power hungry, that congressional leaders will just agree with him.  He's going to set up to claim there was voter fraud. If he wins, he'll say there wasn't. If he loses, he won't give up his office.

We are already in a Constitutional crisis where a branch of the government is bowing down to another instead of acting as equals. It doesn't strike me as far fetched to think the next election might just be the end of peaceful handovers of power.

Or he'll say there still was, much like he did when he won last time.  The same investigation that he triumphantly trumpeted "NO COLLUSION" about is now something he's calling an attempted coup.  He's falling apart upstairs and nearly half the country is going with it. It's sickening.

It's good to remember that really only about 20% of the voting population over age 18 approve of Trump. 20% is certainly still pretty bad.

The problem is that his overall approval rating hasn't appreciably changed since the election, so we're going to have the same problem we did last time..
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6939 on: April 28, 2019, 08:02:42 AM »
The problem is that someone must present a viable alternative. A viable alternative is someone who acknowledges that the US has significant problems. It is not clear that such a person exists in the Democratic Party establishment. As happened with the Republican Party, someone would have to come from outside it and usurp it.

If the people have to choose between a boring rich old white guy and an entertaining rich old white guy, they are not going to choose the boring one.

I realise that for the salaried classes, acknowledging that the US has problems (beyond some minor fiddling with distribution of benefits) causes some cognitive dissonance.

LennStar

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6940 on: April 28, 2019, 12:31:33 PM »
A viable alternative is someone who acknowledges that the US has significant problems. It is not clear that such a person exists in the Democratic Party establishment.
Oh, there is quite a number. But they get activly torpedoes by the party itself.

Like this:
https://boingboing.net/2019/03/23/primary-those-fuckers-2.html

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6941 on: April 28, 2019, 06:21:19 PM »
I try to focus more on what politicians actually DO, rather than the blather they spew from their mouths, all parties, all levels of government. That said, whats this with Q1 GDP coming in at 3.2%? I thought Obama told us the new normal was 1.5% growth?

Obama didn't tell us that the new normal was 1.5% growth. Economists told us that 1.5 - 2% growth was the new normal.
There are ways to increase that growth rate, we could add to the supply of workers by providing all families with paid for child care, increase immigration into the country. Also, we can improve infrastructure such as trains, buses, etc. to make commuting faster and efficient, we can invest in human capital by improving education and making it more affordable. We can make it easier for people to move to where the jobs are located by creating more affordable housing in cities.

The 3.2% number is higher because of the one time effects of business inventory accumulation, and the decreased demand for imported goods.
If you strip these away, then the growth rate is 2%. 
Because inventory accumulation occurred in this quarter, then inventory won't be accumulated in the 2nd quarter, so you're likely to see a subpar growth rate for the 2nd quarter.

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6942 on: April 29, 2019, 05:52:23 AM »
The problem is that someone must present a viable alternative. A viable alternative is someone who acknowledges that the US has significant problems. It is not clear that such a person exists in the Democratic Party establishment. As happened with the Republican Party, someone would have to come from outside it and usurp it.

If the people have to choose between a boring rich old white guy and an entertaining rich old white guy, they are not going to choose the boring one.

I realise that for the salaried classes, acknowledging that the US has problems (beyond some minor fiddling with distribution of benefits) causes some cognitive dissonance.

For me, a shit sandwich is a viable alternative. TBH I don't really see this as you and others may. Everyone has a choice. If you don't like any of the candidates then don't support any of them. No one is holding a gun to the head of folks who supported and still support the shit bag in chief. IF you still support Trump is says more about the type of person you are rather than the type of politicians being nominated.   

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6943 on: April 29, 2019, 02:56:51 PM »
The problem is that someone must present a viable alternative. A viable alternative is someone who acknowledges that the US has significant problems. It is not clear that such a person exists in the Democratic Party establishment. As happened with the Republican Party, someone would have to come from outside it and usurp it.

If the people have to choose between a boring rich old white guy and an entertaining rich old white guy, they are not going to choose the boring one.

I realise that for the salaried classes, acknowledging that the US has problems (beyond some minor fiddling with distribution of benefits) causes some cognitive dissonance.

For me, a shit sandwich is a viable alternative. TBH I don't really see this as you and others may. Everyone has a choice. If you don't like any of the candidates then don't support any of them. No one is holding a gun to the head of folks who supported and still support the shit bag in chief. IF you still support Trump is says more about the type of person you are rather than the type of politicians being nominated.
I agree with this.

gentmach

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6944 on: April 30, 2019, 08:40:52 AM »
I try to focus more on what politicians actually DO, rather than the blather they spew from their mouths, all parties, all levels of government. That said, whats this with Q1 GDP coming in at 3.2%? I thought Obama told us the new normal was 1.5% growth?
There are ways to increase that growth rate, we could add to the supply of workers by providing all families with paid for child care, increase immigration into the country. Also, we can improve infrastructure such as trains, buses, etc. to make commuting faster and efficient, we can invest in human capital by improving education and making it more affordable. We can make it easier for people to move to where the jobs are located by creating more affordable housing in cities.

Side question: wouldn't increased growth and production increase consumption, thereby exacerbating the climate change issue? If a person's definition of success is materialistic then we won't be getting ahead (I.e. buy a house instead of living in an apartment,)

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6945 on: April 30, 2019, 09:17:03 AM »
I try to focus more on what politicians actually DO, rather than the blather they spew from their mouths, all parties, all levels of government. That said, whats this with Q1 GDP coming in at 3.2%? I thought Obama told us the new normal was 1.5% growth?
There are ways to increase that growth rate, we could add to the supply of workers by providing all families with paid for child care, increase immigration into the country. Also, we can improve infrastructure such as trains, buses, etc. to make commuting faster and efficient, we can invest in human capital by improving education and making it more affordable. We can make it easier for people to move to where the jobs are located by creating more affordable housing in cities.

Side question: wouldn't increased growth and production increase consumption, thereby exacerbating the climate change issue? If a person's definition of success is materialistic then we won't be getting ahead (I.e. buy a house instead of living in an apartment,)

I think it depends on ones definition of success. In general there are many ways of increasing quality of life, without having to spend on expensive material objects. A person can be equally wealthy living in an apartment with stocks, than living in a big inefficient house with an SUV. Heck an energy efficient built from scratch house is most likely more expensive an outlay at first, but will have lower carrying costs forward. I think what you say is true if you only have a very narrow definition of "success".  There will be winners and losers but doesn't mean the overall productivity of society as well as overall spending will go down.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6946 on: April 30, 2019, 09:30:54 AM »
I try to focus more on what politicians actually DO, rather than the blather they spew from their mouths, all parties, all levels of government. That said, whats this with Q1 GDP coming in at 3.2%? I thought Obama told us the new normal was 1.5% growth?
There are ways to increase that growth rate, we could add to the supply of workers by providing all families with paid for child care, increase immigration into the country. Also, we can improve infrastructure such as trains, buses, etc. to make commuting faster and efficient, we can invest in human capital by improving education and making it more affordable. We can make it easier for people to move to where the jobs are located by creating more affordable housing in cities.

Side question: wouldn't increased growth and production increase consumption, thereby exacerbating the climate change issue? If a person's definition of success is materialistic then we won't be getting ahead (I.e. buy a house instead of living in an apartment,)

I think it depends on ones definition of success. In general there are many ways of increasing quality of life, without having to spend on expensive material objects. A person can be equally wealthy living in an apartment with stocks, than living in a big inefficient house with an SUV. Heck an energy efficient built from scratch house is most likely more expensive an outlay at first, but will have lower carrying costs forward. I think what you say is true if you only have a very narrow definition of "success".  There will be winners and losers but doesn't mean the overall productivity of society as well as overall spending will go down.

This is something that kinda drives me nuts.  Inefficiency hurts everyone.  The guy driving a truck to commute that gets a third the gas mileage of a small car?  He's not helping the economy . . . the extra money he's paying is directly invested in enhanced air pollution and wasted gas.  The person with the large drafty house who cranks the heating and A/C to stay comfy?  Not helping the economy . . . just wasting energy.  It's like the broken window theory.

When we allow this type of behaviour to go on by lowering energy prices artificially, it hurts everyone.  Increasing tax on energy will lead to behaviour that keeps more money in the economy simply by reducing waste.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6947 on: April 30, 2019, 10:17:23 AM »
This is something that kinda drives me nuts.  Inefficiency hurts everyone.  The guy driving a truck to commute that gets a third the gas mileage of a small car?  He's not helping the economy . . . the extra money he's paying is directly invested in enhanced air pollution and wasted gas.

And terrorism.  Let's not forget that his truck pays for terrorism.

To be more precise, the US spends hundreds of millions of dollars per year buying and shipping oil from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the primary source of funds for terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan according the US State Department.  Our relationship with the Saudis is a complicated one, but it's hard to argue that a gas-guzzling pickup is very patriotic, no matter how many flags you put on it, when you're supporting terrorist training camps every time you fill it up.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6948 on: April 30, 2019, 10:34:12 AM »
This is something that kinda drives me nuts.  Inefficiency hurts everyone.  The guy driving a truck to commute that gets a third the gas mileage of a small car?  He's not helping the economy . . . the extra money he's paying is directly invested in enhanced air pollution and wasted gas.

And terrorism.  Let's not forget that his truck pays for terrorism.

To be more precise, the US spends hundreds of millions of dollars per year buying and shipping oil from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the primary source of funds for terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan according the US State Department.  Our relationship with the Saudis is a complicated one, but it's hard to argue that a gas-guzzling pickup is very patriotic, no matter how many flags you put on it, when you're supporting terrorist training camps every time you fill it up.
That's heresy Sol... nothing shows your patriotism more than a pickup.  Yesterday I walked past a giant F250 on mud tires with a lift kit.  The rear window had a bunch of stickers, including one in the shape of the lower-48 that said "F*ck Off We're Full", a second that just said "Trump that Bitch 2016" and a third for the US Marines. On the bumper were two US flag stickers.  What could possibly be more patriotic?

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #6949 on: April 30, 2019, 10:53:23 AM »
This is something that kinda drives me nuts.  Inefficiency hurts everyone.  The guy driving a truck to commute that gets a third the gas mileage of a small car?  He's not helping the economy . . . the extra money he's paying is directly invested in enhanced air pollution and wasted gas.

And terrorism.  Let's not forget that his truck pays for terrorism.

To be more precise, the US spends hundreds of millions of dollars per year buying and shipping oil from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the primary source of funds for terrorist groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan according the US State Department.  Our relationship with the Saudis is a complicated one, but it's hard to argue that a gas-guzzling pickup is very patriotic, no matter how many flags you put on it, when you're supporting terrorist training camps every time you fill it up.
That's heresy Sol... nothing shows your patriotism more than a pickup.  Yesterday I walked past a giant F250 on mud tires with a lift kit.  The rear window had a bunch of stickers, including one in the shape of the lower-48 that said "F*ck Off We're Full", a second that just said "Trump that Bitch 2016" and a third for the US Marines. On the bumper were two US flag stickers.  What could possibly be more patriotic?

Maybe Jussie Smollett sporting a Bernie bumper sticker. That shouts Democrat, loud and proud lmao.