So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...

[Barbaebigode]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/nov/05/donald-trump-accused-blocking-satellite-climate-change-research

Is the average republican voter really ok with blocking research for ideological reasons?

[Kris]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/nov/05/donald-trump-accused-blocking-satellite-climate-change-research

Is the average republican voter really ok with blocking research for ideological reasons?

Yes.

[bacchi]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/nov/05/donald-trump-accused-blocking-satellite-climate-change-research

Is the average republican voter really ok with blocking research for ideological reasons?

Yes.

Science has a well known liberal bias.

[Just Joe]

So does knowing stuff...

[DoubleDown]

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/nov/05/donald-trump-accused-blocking-satellite-climate-change-research

Is the average republican voter really ok with blocking research for ideological reasons?

Yes.

Science has a well known liberal bias.

Especially gravity and thermodynamics. Those two things are always conspiring in favor of the coastal elites and the rest of the Deep State.

[DarkandStormy]

https://apnews.com/11d14102e6cf4a67b2e56fb3b4f1d48f?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP

This is normal.

[paddedhat]

Looks like Flynn and Flynn Jr. will be the next pair from Trump's crime family to do the perp. walk for Mueller.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/michael-flynn-son-russia-investigation-charges

If this part is true, it boggles the mind.

"Mueller is reportedly looking into whether Flynn tried to extradite a chief rival of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan from the U.S. back to Turkey in exchange for millions of dollars. Shortly after Trump’s inauguration, the F.B.I. was asked to reexamine Turkey’s request that Pennsylvania resident Fethullah Gulen, a Muslim cleric whom Erdogan blames for orchestrating a coup against him, be removed back to Turkey. While it’s unclear whether the request came from Flynn, Mueller’s team appears to be interested in allegations made by ex-C.I.A. director James Woolsey that Flynn talked with Turkish officials about kidnapping Gulen in September 2016."

Apparently, when it comes to team Trump, there are no rules, and if you have the connections and the cash, it appears that it might go down like this. "You want the extrajudicial extradition of a political rival? No worries, I'll have my bag man drop buy your embassy for the cash, and we can get this handled discretely."  It really doesn't seem too awfully long ago when we were a nation governed by the rule of law, and at least pretended to claim the high moral ground..................................

[bacchi]

Looks like Flynn and Flynn Jr. will be the next pair from Trump's crime family to do the perp. walk for Mueller.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/michael-flynn-son-russia-investigation-charges

If this part is true, it boggles the mind.

"Mueller is reportedly looking into whether Flynn tried to extradite a chief rival of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan from the U.S. back to Turkey in exchange for millions of dollars. Shortly after Trump’s inauguration, the F.B.I. was asked to reexamine Turkey’s request that Pennsylvania resident Fethullah Gulen, a Muslim cleric whom Erdogan blames for orchestrating a coup against him, be removed back to Turkey. While it’s unclear whether the request came from Flynn, Mueller’s team appears to be interested in allegations made by ex-C.I.A. director James Woolsey that Flynn talked with Turkish officials about kidnapping Gulen in September 2016."

Apparently, when it comes to team Trump, there are no rules, and if you have the connections and the cash, it appears that it might go down like this. "You want the extrajudicial extradition of a political rival? No worries, I'll have my bag man drop buy your embassy for the cash, and we can get this handled discretely."  It really doesn't seem too awfully long ago when we were a nation governed by the rule of law, and at least pretended to claim the high moral ground..................................

Dayam. This will be a fascinating week.

If true, it brings up an interesting psychological question. When do pro-Trumpians finally admit that it's more than a witch hunt? That their savior ("Drain the swamp!") is really just another crocodile, and a well-fed one at that?

As Mueller sniffs closer, Trump is going to have to act.

[Lagom]

If true, it brings up an interesting psychological question. When do pro-Trumpians finally admit that it's more than a witch hunt? That their savior ("Drain the swamp!") is really just another crocodile, and a well-fed one at that?

As Mueller sniffs closer, Trump is going to have to act.

Honestly, I think never. It's already glaringly obvious it's not a witch hunt. Literally multiple major players in his campaign (and now probably his administration) have already been shown to be dirty enough to be given deals and/or charged (and by what I know of Muellers reputation, with a high conviction probability), and yet the Trump bots continue to shrug their shoulders. Even if the orange one himself were to go down they would probably blame it on the deep state with their dying breath. Pretty impressive single-mindedness, in a way...

[EscapeVelocity2020]

If true, it brings up an interesting psychological question. When do pro-Trumpians finally admit that it's more than a witch hunt? That their savior ("Drain the swamp!") is really just another crocodile, and a well-fed one at that?

As Mueller sniffs closer, Trump is going to have to act.

Honestly, I think never. It's already glaringly obvious it's not a witch hunt. Literally multiple major players in his campaign (and now probably his administration) have already been shown to be dirty enough to be given deals and/or charged (and by what I know of Muellers reputation, with a high conviction probability), and yet the Trump bots continue to shrug their shoulders. Even if the orange one himself were to go down they would probably blame it on the deep state with their dying breath. Pretty impressive single-mindedness, in a way...

If the bolded bit is true, and I realize that most are jaded enough to believe it may be true, then America has discovered it's Achilles Heel.

[sequoia]

Looks like Flynn and Flynn Jr. will be the next pair from Trump's crime family to do the perp. walk for Mueller.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/michael-flynn-son-russia-investigation-charges

If this part is true, it boggles the mind.

"Mueller is reportedly looking into whether Flynn tried to extradite a chief rival of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan from the U.S. back to Turkey in exchange for millions of dollars. Shortly after Trump’s inauguration, the F.B.I. was asked to reexamine Turkey’s request that Pennsylvania resident Fethullah Gulen, a Muslim cleric whom Erdogan blames for orchestrating a coup against him, be removed back to Turkey. While it’s unclear whether the request came from Flynn, Mueller’s team appears to be interested in allegations made by ex-C.I.A. director James Woolsey that Flynn talked with Turkish officials about kidnapping Gulen in September 2016."

Apparently, when it comes to team Trump, there are no rules, and if you have the connections and the cash, it appears that it might go down like this. "You want the extrajudicial extradition of a political rival? No worries, I'll have my bag man drop buy your embassy for the cash, and we can get this handled discretely."  It really doesn't seem too awfully long ago when we were a nation governed by the rule of law, and at least pretended to claim the high moral ground..................................

Dayam. This will be a fascinating week.

+1. I was pretty surprised reading this earlier. Definitely going to be interesting to hear the details as more information is available/released.

[JLee]

If true, it brings up an interesting psychological question. When do pro-Trumpians finally admit that it's more than a witch hunt? That their savior ("Drain the swamp!") is really just another crocodile, and a well-fed one at that?

As Mueller sniffs closer, Trump is going to have to act.

Honestly, I think never. It's already glaringly obvious it's not a witch hunt. Literally multiple major players in his campaign (and now probably his administration) have already been shown to be dirty enough to be given deals and/or charged (and by what I know of Muellers reputation, with a high conviction probability), and yet the Trump bots continue to shrug their shoulders. Even if the orange one himself were to go down they would probably blame it on the deep state with their dying breath. Pretty impressive single-mindedness, in a way...

If the bolded bit is true, and I realize that most are jaded enough to believe it may be true, then America has discovered it's Achilles Heel.

He still has a 37% approval rating.

37 percent.

:/

[NoStacheOhio]

If true, it brings up an interesting psychological question. When do pro-Trumpians finally admit that it's more than a witch hunt? That their savior ("Drain the swamp!") is really just another crocodile, and a well-fed one at that?

As Mueller sniffs closer, Trump is going to have to act.

Honestly, I think never. It's already glaringly obvious it's not a witch hunt. Literally multiple major players in his campaign (and now probably his administration) have already been shown to be dirty enough to be given deals and/or charged (and by what I know of Muellers reputation, with a high conviction probability), and yet the Trump bots continue to shrug their shoulders. Even if the orange one himself were to go down they would probably blame it on the deep state with their dying breath. Pretty impressive single-mindedness, in a way...

If the bolded bit is true, and I realize that most are jaded enough to believe it may be true, then America has discovered it's Achilles Heel.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-crisis

[DarkandStormy]

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-fbi-justice-department-investigations-twitter-701117

Trump is just openly colluding with Sessions/DOJ to go after his political foes.  This is a Watergate-level scandal...happening on Twitter.  And no one cares.

[paddedhat]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article182972921.html


If the orange POS lasts long enough to run in the next election cycle, I think this will be one issue that is going to be pounded home, and definitely weaken support from his base. I can just imagine when the trump core voter is constantly bombarded with the fact that Trump has a long history of using foreign workers at many of his domestic properties, and continues to do so, as the president that's here to save the little people.  Not only is it a business decision based on the fact that this visa delivers a low paid near slave, who has no other option but to do whatever they are told, for as long as they are told to do it, or face deportation, he is also completely unapologetic in this, and claims that you just can't get good help locally. Trump stands on the podium claiming that he will stop immigration to MAGA, but refuses to hire Americans to do low skilled jobs at his own companies.  Huh? sounds like some of his loyal, uneducated, unskilled followers are beneath the caliber of the help he chooses to import?  What's the old saying? Do as I say, not as I do.

[Kris]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article182972921.html


If the orange POS lasts long enough to run in the next election cycle, I think this will be one issue that is going to be pounded home, and definitely weaken support from his base. I can just imagine when the trump core voter is constantly bombarded with the fact that Trump has a long history of using foreign workers at many of his domestic properties, and continues to do so, as the president that's here to save the little people.  Not only is it a business decision based on the fact that this visa delivers a low paid near slave, who has no other option but to do whatever they are told, for as long as they are told to do it, or face deportation, he is also completely unapologetic in this, and claims that you just can't get good help locally. Trump stands on the podium claiming that he will stop immigration to MAGA, but refuses to hire Americans to do low skilled jobs at his own companies.  Huh? sounds like some of his loyal, uneducated, unskilled followers are beneath the caliber of the help he chooses to import?  What's the old saying? Do as I say, not as I do.

I can't imagine that his base will pay any attention to this. It's been shown in many different ways that Trump doesn't do things that benefit his voting base. But they don't care. And they're stuck in a right-wing media bubble that spins everything he does to make it sound good to them. Imagining that logic or facts will sway them is deluded.

[GuitarStv]

If true, it brings up an interesting psychological question. When do pro-Trumpians finally admit that it's more than a witch hunt? That their savior ("Drain the swamp!") is really just another crocodile, and a well-fed one at that?

As Mueller sniffs closer, Trump is going to have to act.

Honestly, I think never. It's already glaringly obvious it's not a witch hunt. Literally multiple major players in his campaign (and now probably his administration) have already been shown to be dirty enough to be given deals and/or charged (and by what I know of Muellers reputation, with a high conviction probability), and yet the Trump bots continue to shrug their shoulders. Even if the orange one himself were to go down they would probably blame it on the deep state with their dying breath. Pretty impressive single-mindedness, in a way...

If the bolded bit is true, and I realize that most are jaded enough to believe it may be true, then America has discovered it's Achilles Heel.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-crisis

This is a really good article that brings up many valid points IMHO.

[Glenstache]

If true, it brings up an interesting psychological question. When do pro-Trumpians finally admit that it's more than a witch hunt? That their savior ("Drain the swamp!") is really just another crocodile, and a well-fed one at that?

As Mueller sniffs closer, Trump is going to have to act.

Honestly, I think never. It's already glaringly obvious it's not a witch hunt. Literally multiple major players in his campaign (and now probably his administration) have already been shown to be dirty enough to be given deals and/or charged (and by what I know of Muellers reputation, with a high conviction probability), and yet the Trump bots continue to shrug their shoulders. Even if the orange one himself were to go down they would probably blame it on the deep state with their dying breath. Pretty impressive single-mindedness, in a way...

If the bolded bit is true, and I realize that most are jaded enough to believe it may be true, then America has discovered it's Achilles Heel.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-crisis

This is a really good article that brings up many valid points IMHO.

Yes, what does it really mean to be post-truth?

[Just Joe]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article182972921.html


If the orange POS lasts long enough to run in the next election cycle, I think this will be one issue that is going to be pounded home, and definitely weaken support from his base. I can just imagine when the trump core voter is constantly bombarded with the fact that Trump has a long history of using foreign workers at many of his domestic properties, and continues to do so, as the president that's here to save the little people.  Not only is it a business decision based on the fact that this visa delivers a low paid near slave, who has no other option but to do whatever they are told, for as long as they are told to do it, or face deportation, he is also completely unapologetic in this, and claims that you just can't get good help locally. Trump stands on the podium claiming that he will stop immigration to MAGA, but refuses to hire Americans to do low skilled jobs at his own companies.  Huh? sounds like some of his loyal, uneducated, unskilled followers are beneath the caliber of the help he chooses to import?  What's the old saying? Do as I say, not as I do.

I can't imagine that his base will pay any attention to this. It's been shown in many different ways that Trump doesn't do things that benefit his voting base. But they don't care. And they're stuck in a right-wing media bubble that spins everything he does to make it sound good to them. Imagining that logic or facts will sway them is deluded.

As long as the talking points of Trump and his voting base are "Benghazi! Crooked Hillary! Obama is a Muslim!", I have little faith in either group.

Let's move on America - there are bigger issues at hand.

[A Definite Beta Guy]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article182972921.html


If the orange POS lasts long enough to run in the next election cycle, I think this will be one issue that is going to be pounded home, and definitely weaken support from his base. I can just imagine when the trump core voter is constantly bombarded with the fact that Trump has a long history of using foreign workers at many of his domestic properties, and continues to do so, as the president that's here to save the little people.  Not only is it a business decision based on the fact that this visa delivers a low paid near slave, who has no other option but to do whatever they are told, for as long as they are told to do it, or face deportation, he is also completely unapologetic in this, and claims that you just can't get good help locally. Trump stands on the podium claiming that he will stop immigration to MAGA, but refuses to hire Americans to do low skilled jobs at his own companies.  Huh? sounds like some of his loyal, uneducated, unskilled followers are beneath the caliber of the help he chooses to import?  What's the old saying? Do as I say, not as I do.

If this didn't stick in 2016, why would it stick in 2020?

Assuming Trump survives the Mueller probe and the economy stays strong into 2020, I'd say Trump is the favorite for re-election.

[bacchi]

The Virginia House is tilting towards the Democrats tonight; the Dems are +12 seats and may pick up another 6. Even "safe" Republican districts are in danger.

This is the future of a full Trump Presidency: the Republican loss of the US House in 2018.

Maine is voting on Medicaid expansion and it won easily.

[DarkandStormy]

The author of the anti-transgender bathroom bill in VA lost to the first ever transgender American state legislator.

Karma is a bitch.

[JLee]

The author of the anti-transgender bathroom bill in VA lost to the first ever transgender American state legislator.

Karma is a bitch.

Haha I saw that news story today and was so pleased...

[paddedhat]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article182972921.html


If the orange POS lasts long enough to run in the next election cycle, I think this will be one issue that is going to be pounded home, and definitely weaken support from his base. I can just imagine when the trump core voter is constantly bombarded with the fact that Trump has a long history of using foreign workers at many of his domestic properties, and continues to do so, as the president that's here to save the little people.  Not only is it a business decision based on the fact that this visa delivers a low paid near slave, who has no other option but to do whatever they are told, for as long as they are told to do it, or face deportation, he is also completely unapologetic in this, and claims that you just can't get good help locally. Trump stands on the podium claiming that he will stop immigration to MAGA, but refuses to hire Americans to do low skilled jobs at his own companies.  Huh? sounds like some of his loyal, uneducated, unskilled followers are beneath the caliber of the help he chooses to import?  What's the old saying? Do as I say, not as I do.

If this didn't stick in 2016, why would it stick in 2020?

Assuming Trump survives the Mueller probe and the economy stays strong into 2020, I'd say Trump is the favorite for re-election.

It didn't stick because it wasn't an issue. Until half-way through election night, there was little concern that trump was ever going to be POTUS. Using the many hundreds of examples of why he is unfit for the role was looked at as just a bunch of petty whining. Now you have his followers truly believing he will bring back good paying jobs to unskilled, and/or uneducated workers, and he specifically avoids them by hiring foreign workers to take their place. I'll bet it will be a much bigger issue in coming months. As for your re-election prediction, IMHO, he doesn't stand a chance.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Well, I'm not going to hold my breath, but maybe all this winning with repeated mass shootings and rhetoric response, long-faded racial tensions being fanned, being the ONLY (f-ing) country (I mean, EVEN uber-dysfunctional SYRIA is in!) not in the Paris Climate Accord, destabilized health insurance marketplace...  isn't what the Trump base was hoping for?  I guess one Neil Gorsuch, continued prosperity (mainly for those owning equities), and a bunch of failed Travel Bans weren't enough?  Maybe a few Red States are turning purple from all this winning?  Maybe it is becoming obvious that if we continue to win like this, there really won't be much left to hold up as a trophy?

[A Definite Beta Guy]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article182972921.html


If the orange POS lasts long enough to run in the next election cycle, I think this will be one issue that is going to be pounded home, and definitely weaken support from his base. I can just imagine when the trump core voter is constantly bombarded with the fact that Trump has a long history of using foreign workers at many of his domestic properties, and continues to do so, as the president that's here to save the little people.  Not only is it a business decision based on the fact that this visa delivers a low paid near slave, who has no other option but to do whatever they are told, for as long as they are told to do it, or face deportation, he is also completely unapologetic in this, and claims that you just can't get good help locally. Trump stands on the podium claiming that he will stop immigration to MAGA, but refuses to hire Americans to do low skilled jobs at his own companies.  Huh? sounds like some of his loyal, uneducated, unskilled followers are beneath the caliber of the help he chooses to import?  What's the old saying? Do as I say, not as I do.

If this didn't stick in 2016, why would it stick in 2020?

Assuming Trump survives the Mueller probe and the economy stays strong into 2020, I'd say Trump is the favorite for re-election.

It didn't stick because it wasn't an issue. Until half-way through election night, there was little concern that trump was ever going to be POTUS. Using the many hundreds of examples of why he is unfit for the role was looked at as just a bunch of petty whining. Now you have his followers truly believing he will bring back good paying jobs to unskilled, and/or uneducated workers, and he specifically avoids them by hiring foreign workers to take their place. I'll bet it will be a much bigger issue in coming months. As for your re-election prediction, IMHO, he doesn't stand a chance.

It was brought up multiple times on the web-er-net and the debates. Along with Trump stiffing contractors. Neither really hurt Trump among the people he needed to win, so I don't see why 2020 would see this become a flashpoint.

I don't know why you think he wouldn't stand a chance. He's an incumbent President. He is sitting on top of a growing economy. Those two factors alone are huge advantages in seeking re-election, and despite his short-comings he still won in 2016 with 46% of the vote. I'd say even Trump detractors would have to give the guy at LEAST a 1 in 3 chance that he's going to win an election in 2020.

Well, I'm not going to hold my breath, but maybe all this winning with repeated mass shootings and rhetoric response, long-faded racial tensions being fanned, being the ONLY (f-ing) country (I mean, EVEN uber-dysfunctional SYRIA is in!) not in the Paris Climate Accord, destabilized health insurance marketplace...  isn't what the Trump base was hoping for?  I guess one Neil Gorsuch, continued prosperity (mainly for those owning equities), and a bunch of failed Travel Bans weren't enough?  Maybe a few Red States are turning purple from all this winning?  Maybe it is becoming obvious that if we continue to win like this, there really won't be much left to hold up as a trophy?

Some Red States are turning purple, but these processes have little to do with Trump and have already been in place for a long time. Obama won VA and NC.

On the other hand, some states are drifting more Red. Ohio and Iowa are leaders of that trend. PA and MI and WI are all blue-leaning states that Trump won.

[paddedhat]

He is finished for the same reason that Gillespie lost in VA. yesterday. It takes the vast majority of Republicans, and enough independents and swing voters to pull off another victory.  He might be able to retain a majority of the loyal repubs. but the other two groups are growing weary of his stunning incompetence, and ability to continually embarrass the republic. If we all have to suffer though another  three years of his reign, he will find himself in a similar situation to Nixon did in his last days. Nixon resigned in disgrace while still retaining an approval rating from 28% of the country. Since he is currently at 33-38%, the lowest in modern history, at the one year mark. He is heading toward that 28 number, and has 36 months to hit his mark. The fact that VA. Beach, long a conservative stronghold, and home to large numbers of active and retired military, voted for a democrat for governor yesterday,  is probably a giant  "WTF happened?" moment inside the RNC and the White House today.

Then you have the whole Russia investigation. IMHO,  the little orange boy's recent explosive reaction to learning of the nuclear potential of numerous peripheral players in the campaign, which include Mr. Page and Mr. Popadopoulos, fits the Shakespearean concept of  "protest too much, methinks", and makes it pretty obvious that he is running scared.  Coupled with the fact that every new bit of information seems to reinforce the concept of the Steele Dossier being more of a play by play review, than a work of fiction, and IMHO, there is little chance of seeing  trump celebrating his re-election.

 Finally, it would be sweet, but unlikely that trump will be still surfing the top of an ever improving economic wave, IF he still is living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. in late 2019. Nothing lasts forever, and there are no shortage of insiders who strongly believe that major tax reform doesn't have a shot in hell of passing.  Could be wrong, but when that bubble bursts, the ole' "irrational exuberance" hits the fan, as does the future of the Republican party, which clearly would survive, but end up severely wounded. My guess is, absent a major tax success, with trillions in handouts to the 1% and the corporatocracy, the boom times are over.

[Barbaebigode]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/nov/07/syria-signs-paris-climate-agreement-and-leaves-us-isolated

Now the US is the only country out of the Paris treaty... so much winning

[Glenstache]

My guess is, absent a major tax success, with trillions in handouts to the 1% and the corporatocracy, the boom times are over.

So we should expect a lot of funding for the Democrats and a doubling down on efforts to purchase/own them relative to past efforts?

Sigh.

[DarkandStormy]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800

Oh.  My.  God.

What a nightmare read.

We're totally f***ed as a nation if this is the mentality of people across the country.  And it appears to be so for ~37% of voters.  Here are some highlights:

“The thing that irritates me to no end is this NFL shit,” Schilling told me in her living room. “I’m about ready to go over the top with this shit. We do not watch no NFL now.” They’re Dallas Cowboys fans. “We banned ‘em. We don’t watch it.”

The NFL?

“Niggers for life,” Schilling said.

“For life,” McCabe added.

More than anything, what seemed to upset the people I spoke with was the National Football League players who have knelt during the national anthem to protest police brutality and racial inequality.

“As far as I’m concerned,” Frear told me, “if I was the boss of these teams, I would tell ‘em, ‘You get your asses out there and you play, or you’re not here anymore.’ They’re paying their salaries, for God’s sake.”

“Shame on them,” Del Signore said over his alfredo. “These clowns are out there, making millions of dollars a year, and they’re using some stupid excuse that they want equality—so I’ll kneel against the flag and the national anthem?”

“You’re not a fan of equality?” I asked.

“For people who deserve it and earn it,” he said.

“He’s kind of the last best hope, in my opinion,” said Bala, 65, a retired high school Spanish and reading teacher. “I haven’t run into anybody who’s said they’d never vote for him again.”

Next to Bala was a gray-haired man who told me he voted for Trump and was happy so far because “he’s kept his promises.”

I asked which ones.

“Border security.” But there’s no wall yet. “No fault of his,” the man said.

What else? “Getting rid of Obamacare.” But he hasn’t. “Well, he’s tried to.”

What else? “Defunding Planned Parenthood.” But he didn’t. “Not his fault again,” the man said.

I asked for his name. “Bill K.,” he said. He wouldn’t give me his last name. “I don’t trust you,” he said.

“But I like him,” Frear reiterated. “Because he does what he says.”

A Catholic whose wife goes to church every Sunday whereas he, “shame on me,” does not, Del Signore told me toward the end of our lunch that some people at church told his wife that Obama is the antichrist. “She comes home and tells me these things that they tell you in church,” he said. I asked him if that’s what he thinks. “I don’t know,” he said. “Some people say that.”

Del Signore said he’s been following politics far more than before because of Trump. Trump, he said, is just “more interesting.” So now he likes watching the news. “Ninety-nine percent of the time I watch Fox,” he said. “Sometimes I’ll be sitting there listening to all this Fox stuff, and I’ll say, ‘Maybe they aren’t right, maybe I’ll flip to CNN’—but every time I’ve found that Fox has been correct, and CNN is definitely fake news.”

“Everybody I talk to,” he said, “realizes it’s not Trump who’s dragging his feet. Trump’s probably the most diligent, hardest-working president we’ve ever had in our lifetimes. It’s not like he sleeps in till noon and goes golfing every weekend, like the last president did.”

I stopped him, informing him that, yes, Barack Obama liked to golf, but Trump in fact does golf a lot, too—more, in fact.

Del Signore was surprised to hear this.

“Does he?” he said.

“Yes,” I said.

He did not linger on this topic, smiling and changing the subject with a quip. “If I was married to his wife,” Del Signore said, “I don’t think I’d go anywhere.”

When I asked Del Signore about the past year here, he said he “didn’t see any change because we got a new president.” He nonetheless remains an ardent proponent. “He’s our answer.”

I asked Schilling what would happen if the next three years go the way the last one has.

“I’m not going to blame him,” Schilling said. “Absolutely not.”

Is there anything that could change her mind about Trump?

“Nope,” she said.

It’s not that the people who made Trump president have generously moved the goalposts for him. It’s that they have eliminated the goalposts altogether.

These people need a goddamn intervention.

[GuitarStv]

In the post-truth world nothing matters but feelings.  And their feelings towards Trump are friendly.

[wenchsenior]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800

Oh.  My.  God.

What a nightmare read.

We're totally f***ed as a nation if this is the mentality of people across the country.  And it appears to be so for ~37% of voters.  Here are some highlights:

....

These people need a goddamn intervention.

Meh.  There's no cure for stupid.

[Malloy]

“You’re not a fan of equality?” I asked.

“For people who deserve it and earn it,” he said.

Exactly who deserves equality, I wonder?  I was under the impression that we had sorted that shit out a while back.

So typical though, and so the wheelhouse of Donald Trump.  Because he is the same kind of idiot who watches Fox news and believes the same conspiracy theories as his voters, he understands these people and what motivates them.  They are too ill-informed to understand and digest actual political policies, but things like kneeling during the anthem and building a wall are things they can understand. Plus, they go right into the spite and grievance part of their brains, which seem to largely control their actions.

When I looked at last night's VA voting patterns, it looks like Trump's rural and no-college base has stuck by him.  They turned out for Gillespie.  Gillespie was undone by the increase in suburban and urban voters, not a drop in Trump voters.  It's an import lesson for 2018 and 2020: do not stake any hope on Trump voters staying home or switching. They won't.  All the fence sitters and Bernie Bros are going to have to vote.  And for anyone reading this who thinks that both parties are the same or that they are all corrupt, here's one for you:

House Vote for Net Neutrality
     For    Against
Rep       2            234
Dem   177    6

Senate Vote for Net Neutrality
      For    Against
Rep     0    46
Dem    52    0

More examples here:
https://np.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/6pc5qu/democrats_propose_rules_to_break_up_broadband/dkon8t4/

I mean, we can bitch for hundreds of posts here, but nothing beats voting.

[bacchi]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800

Oh.  My.  God.

What a nightmare read.

We're totally f***ed as a nation if this is the mentality of people across the country.  And it appears to be so for ~37% of voters.  Here are some highlights:

Intelligence is a bell curve. It's easy to forget that when our peers are on the right side of it.

Of course, only Trump paid lip service to these depressed areas. Maybe when the corporate fat cats fuck you at every turn, you give allegiance to the one who throws you a bone. Ignoring the fact that the one paying lip service is also a corporate fat cat who doesn't really care....

For them, it’s evidently not what he’s doing so much as it is the people he’s fighting. Trump is simply and unceasingly angry on their behalf

[Glenstache]

I mean, we can bitch for hundreds of posts here, but nothing beats voting.

This. So much this.

[paddedhat]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800



These people need a goddamn intervention.

I'm glad to see this linked here. I read it this morning, and as a ex-rural PA. resident, I can sadly say, "nothing new to see here folks, just move along".  Seriously, this is the mentality of white rural Appalachian America.

For example, about mid-way through the Obama years, I listen to two of my workers agreeing that the country was going to hell because of all the welfare queens in their fancy cars, who are bankrupting the economy. They also agreed that we have the best heath care system in the world. The next day I gave them an article from a conservative newspaper, that discussed some of the issues they were babbling about, and refuted their claims based on the federal budget as illustrated in a GAO graphic, and heath care statistics, broken down by country, by the CIA's World Book of Facts. I explained that based on conservative sources, there was no significant cash welfare being distributed, and hasn't really been since Clinton put a stop to it. I also showed them that, based on longevity and infant survival statistics, the USA was far from the "world's greatest health care". They thought about it a minute, then admitted that they didn't believe anything I presented, and one said to the other, "Just like I said, the problem with this country is the nigger baby's momma's driving the Escalades". The other one was a devout Christian who would never utter the N-word, so I looked him in the eye and asked if that was his take on it? He nodded in agreement. This is representative of an entire subculture that lives in a world that is completely free of facts. The article you linked to might be horrifying to many of the educated, well rounded and diverse members here, but it's just another day in Appalachia for millions of folks. The brilliance of trump is that he knows exactly how to manipulate the inhabitants of that world.

[DarkandStormy]

“You’re not a fan of equality?” I asked.

“For people who deserve it and earn it,” he said.

Exactly who deserves equality, I wonder?  I was under the impression that we had sorted that shit out a while back.

So typical though, and so the wheelhouse of Donald Trump.  Because he is the same kind of idiot who watches Fox news and believes the same conspiracy theories as his voters, he understands these people and what motivates them.  They are too ill-informed to understand and digest actual political policies, but things like kneeling during the anthem and building a wall are things they can understand. Plus, they go right into the spite and grievance part of their brains, which seem to largely control their actions.

When I looked at last night's VA voting patterns, it looks like Trump's rural and no-college base has stuck by him.  They turned out for Gillespie.  Gillespie was undone by the increase in suburban and urban voters, not a drop in Trump voters.  It's an import lesson for 2018 and 2020: do not stake any hope on Trump voters staying home or switching. They won't.  All the fence sitters and Bernie Bros are going to have to vote.

...

I mean, we can bitch for hundreds of posts here, but nothing beats voting.

Amen.  There is no reasoning with stubborn stupidity.  There isn't going to be any converting #cult45 members.  They are dug in regardless of North Korea, Muller's investigation, or any other policy (or non-policy) over the next 1 year and 3 years.

Participation rates were down in a lot of areas in 2016, but not for #cult45 members.  ~37% of the country is going to vote Republican and Trump in 2018 and 2020 at bare minimum.  The basement line has been set and it's 37% of the country.

[Kris]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800



These people need a goddamn intervention.

I'm glad to see this linked here. I read it this morning, and as a ex-rural PA. resident, I can sadly say, "nothing new to see here folks, just move along".  Seriously, this is the mentality of white rural Appalachian America.

For example, about mid-way through the Obama years, I listen to two of my workers agreeing that the country was going to hell because of all the welfare queens in their fancy cars, who are bankrupting the economy. They also agreed that we have the best heath care system in the world. The next day I gave them an article from a conservative newspaper, that discussed some of the issues they were babbling about, and refuted their claims based on the federal budget as illustrated in a GAO graphic, and heath care statistics, broken down by country, by the CIA's World Book of Facts. I explained that based on conservative sources, there was no significant cash welfare being distributed, and hasn't really been since Clinton put a stop to it. I also showed them that, based on longevity and infant survival statistics, the USA was far from the "world's greatest health care". They thought about it a minute, then admitted that they didn't believe anything I presented, and one said to the other, "Just like I said, the problem with this country is the nigger baby's momma's driving the Escalades". The other one was a devout Christian who would never utter the N-word, so I looked him in the eye and asked if that was his take on it? He nodded in agreement. This is representative of an entire subculture that lives in a world that is completely free of facts. The article you linked to might be horrifying to many of the educated, well rounded and diverse members here, but it's just another day in Appalachia for millions of folks. The brilliance of trump is that he knows exactly how to manipulate the inhabitants of that world.

I grew up in rural Iowa.

Same.

[wenchsenior]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800



These people need a goddamn intervention.

I'm glad to see this linked here. I read it this morning, and as a ex-rural PA. resident, I can sadly say, "nothing new to see here folks, just move along".  Seriously, this is the mentality of white rural Appalachian America.

For example, about mid-way through the Obama years, I listen to two of my workers agreeing that the country was going to hell because of all the welfare queens in their fancy cars, who are bankrupting the economy. They also agreed that we have the best heath care system in the world. The next day I gave them an article from a conservative newspaper, that discussed some of the issues they were babbling about, and refuted their claims based on the federal budget as illustrated in a GAO graphic, and heath care statistics, broken down by country, by the CIA's World Book of Facts. I explained that based on conservative sources, there was no significant cash welfare being distributed, and hasn't really been since Clinton put a stop to it. I also showed them that, based on longevity and infant survival statistics, the USA was far from the "world's greatest health care". They thought about it a minute, then admitted that they didn't believe anything I presented, and one said to the other, "Just like I said, the problem with this country is the nigger baby's momma's driving the Escalades". The other one was a devout Christian who would never utter the N-word, so I looked him in the eye and asked if that was his take on it? He nodded in agreement. This is representative of an entire subculture that lives in a world that is completely free of facts. The article you linked to might be horrifying to many of the educated, well rounded and diverse members here, but it's just another day in Appalachia for millions of folks. The brilliance of trump is that he knows exactly how to manipulate the inhabitants of that world.

I grew up in rural Iowa.

Same.

Somewhat similar in rural WI also, except there the focus of the racism tended to be the Native Americans (because that was the only minority group typically seen in those parts).  This might have changed since I lived there in the 70s and 80s, though, as the face of the nonwhite community changed.

[paddedhat]

Somewhat similar in rural WI also, except there the focus of the racism tended to be the Native Americans (because that was the only minority group typically seen in those parts).  This might have changed since I lived there in the 70s and 80s, though, as the face of the nonwhite community changed.

Having spent many years volunteering with an NGO on reservations in South Dakota, I'm pretty confident that the racism you experienced, with regard to native communities, is still pretty strong. It's a no win situation. Box an entire culture into a location, and a daily struggle, where failure is guaranteed, then blame the victims for their lack of success. At the moment, BIA heath care on some of the Dakota reservations is in a state of total failure, (it's beyond a meltdown, and nothing white, middle class America would tolerate, ever!) yet communities off the reservation will bitch bitterly about natives that actually have the nerve to leave a failed heath care system and travel to their local, white, clean and competently run hospitals for silly things like being able to deliver a baby, and knowing that your child won't die due to incompetence, or lack of qualified health care providers in a failed system. The whole situation is sickening.

[DoubleDown]

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/08/donald-trump-johnstown-pennsylvania-supporters-215800



These people need a goddamn intervention.

I'm glad to see this linked here. I read it this morning, and as a ex-rural PA. resident, I can sadly say, "nothing new to see here folks, just move along".

+1

I was going to say the same thing, that it's always been this way, nothing new here. I'm also certain America's no different than any other country in this regard. There is a significant percentage of ignorant (and racist) people in every country, and these people have no idea how misled they are. I hate the fact that people who are so uninformed have the same vote as I do, or actually even more of a vote depending on population density/districting/gerrymandering/etc. I know there will be no tests for who gets to vote, but I wish there was. Like, I wish people who think the U.S. has 52 states or that Barack Obama was born in Kenya or is Muslim were immediately disqualified, but it remains wishful thinking.

[Just Joe]

In the post-truth world nothing matters but feelings.  And their feelings towards Trump are friendly.

Is this anything new? These people live in a vacuum. And now we get to hear their unsubstantiated opinions thanks to modern media.

They are going through a painful education process as they learn about the wider world. I wish they'd learn faster.

[GuitarStv]

In the post-truth world nothing matters but feelings.  And their feelings towards Trump are friendly.

Is this anything new? These people live in a vacuum. And now we get to hear their unsubstantiated opinions thanks to modern media.

They are going through a painful education process as they learn about the wider world. I wish they'd learn faster.

I admire your optimism in thinking that they are going through an education process.

[NoStacheOhio]

I admire your optimism in thinking that they are going through an education process.

Previously, they wouldn't have known to complain about welfare queens in Escalades. Just "those damn kids."

[paddedhat]

In the post-truth world nothing matters but feelings.  And their feelings towards Trump are friendly.

Is this anything new? These people live in a vacuum. And now we get to hear their unsubstantiated opinions thanks to modern media.

They are going through a painful education process as they learn about the wider world. I wish they'd learn faster.

I admire your optimism in thinking that they are going through an education process.

Indeed, there is zero interest in learning anything that conflicts with their narrative. A year later, it's obvious to any rational person that Trump is full of shit, and has made little, to no effort, to help failed rural white communities. Since learning, and admitting failure are not options, the narrative must be modified to fit. Now the dolts claim that he is giving it everything he has, working hard to MAGA, and is thwarted at every turn by the swamp, press, the dems. traditional repubs. and on and on.
Hoping that the dolts are learning and growing is like hoping that Santa will bring you cool toys. As gerrymandering is addressed, and more of the moderate, swing, and independent voters express their revulsion for Trump, the dolts will slowly lose their brief grip on power, and we can put this chapter behind us. The other weakening of their grip, will be those who have become totally disillusioned by the fact that their last hope, the Tea party, nationalism, and the Great Orange One, have failed to return them to their fantasy ideal 1950's world, and as a result, just walk away from voting at all. My personal observation on this is that there is already a high percentage of this crowd that bitches constantly, lives in a fantasy world of conformation bias and propaganda, but does not vote. I could see the group getting a lot larger as they can no longer ignore the fact that they are not going to be saved by anybody they elect.

[paddedhat]

I admire your optimism in thinking that they are going through an education process.

Previously, they wouldn't have known to complain about welfare queens in Escalades. Just "those damn kids."

Spending several hours a day staring at Fox News is not an education, but eventually you absorb enough propaganda that you "know for a fact" that your world sucks because..................welfare queen in Escalade.

[paddedhat]

Dopey just stood in front of Xi Jinping and announced to the world that his two most recent predecessors are responsible for the trade imbalance with China. The Guardian newspaper said it resulted in an audible gasp from the crowd. FFS, this is heading for treasonous. Dopey has now gotten on his knees and kissed the ass of China's Premier. Other than his obsession with powerful men, I can't imagine what the upside of such a pathetic, weak, obviously unscripted, and damaging performance might be? Putin and his fellow operatives are beyond gleeful in their success at creating an entire presidential administration full of compromised, useful idiots, and Trump decides it's a good move to grovel at the feet of Xi. I congratulate Xi and his fellow leaders for gracefully maintaining their composure. They must be laughing hysterically behind closed doors. What a fucking tool!

https://www.ft.com/content/eb88fd24-c501-11e7-a1d2-6786f39ef675

[Malloy]

So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

[Kris]

So...Roy Moore is still going to win his election.  Who's with me?  How low can the GOP go?  MAGA! (Making Assault Go Away)

Yep, I agree. This type of thing only hurts Democratic candidates. For Republicans, it can actually help them.

[meghan88]

I admire your optimism in thinking that they are going through an education process.

Previously, they wouldn't have known to complain about welfare queens in Escalades. Just "those damn kids."

Spending several hours a day staring at Fox News is not an education, but eventually you absorb enough propaganda that you "know for a fact" that your world sucks because..................welfare queen in Escalade.

I marvel at how some of us in this thread managed to somehow escape this kind of birthright, and learned critical thinking.  My father was a bigot and his world-view it contradicted what I was being taught in grade school - and observing the two points of view helped me to decide what kind of person I wanted to be.

Anyway I love this post by the Oatmeal:  http://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe ... it is an oddly comforting, yet exasperating explanation about how our brains work when confronted with something that doesn't fit our way of thinking.