So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...

[DarkandStormy]

We're supposed to believe he's taking in knowledge when he says he met with the President of The Virgin Islands?  LOL.  Or using life insurance as an example to explain health insurance.  Or that the stock market gains have effectively wiped out the national debt.

I mean...this is a weekly (near-daily) occurrence of idiocy.  I'll believe he's gaining knowledge when he can demonstrate basic levels of common knowledge.  So far, he hasn't done that.

[paddedhat]

As for how long we will need to tolerate the circus be lead by the orange idiot, I recently saw an opinion piece with a fascinating answer. Basically, the theory is that, the Republican legislative branch has one overarching goal, which is tax reform. Once they succeed at tax reform they are essentially done with dopey, and no longer have to tolerate his nonsense. At that point, tossing him under the Meuler bus, or becoming vocal opponents, would have no real downside.Now this writer failed to mention that a lot of these members are continually abused by some of their radical constituents for not being as loyal and supportive of their God-king as they should be. So, who knows?

[Glenstache]

This is happening in the House and Senate, but apparently the GOP is willing to blow up the budget in order to give tax breaks to the wealthy. I guess the hullaballoo about the debt ceiling really was just political theater.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/10/republicans-rally-around-raising-the-deficit/543510/

I feel sorry for people who believe in the traditional conservative principles. The GOP simply does not represent those anymore.

[GuitarStv]

That has been evident for many years now.

[bacchi]

I'm beginning to think that Puerto Rico will be Trump's downfall and it won't do anything good for the GOP either. PR residents are desperate, angry, leaving by the thousands, and many of them will settle in Florida. Florida has 800,000 Puerto Ricans already. If Trump continues to ignore PR, it'll cost him the state.

[Kris]

I'm beginning to think that Puerto Rico will be Trump's downfall and it won't do anything good for the GOP either. PR residents are desperate, angry, leaving by the thousands, and many of them will settle in Florida. Florida has 800,000 Puerto Ricans already. If Trump continues to ignore PR, it'll cost him the state.

My husband and I were talking about this yesterday. Let's hope the PR residents who move to Florida stay angry and vote.

[Gin1984]

Did anyone notice the tax reform, decreasing traditional IRAs and 401ks?  The most common max being thrown out is $2500/year.  Would effect a lot of people here.

[Glenstache]

Did anyone notice the tax reform, decreasing traditional IRAs and 401ks?  The most common max being thrown out is $2500/year.  Would effect a lot of people here.

I did not see that detail. Do you have an easy reference on this before I go digging for it?

[Kris]

Did anyone notice the tax reform, decreasing traditional IRAs and 401ks?  The most common max being thrown out is $2500/year.  Would effect a lot of people here.

I honestly cannot figure out what the Republicans gain by doing this. Can someone please enlighten me? Because even at my most cynical, I can't see why they would do something so stupid.

[ixtap]

Did anyone notice the tax reform, decreasing traditional IRAs and 401ks?  The most common max being thrown out is $2500/year.  Would effect a lot of people here.

I honestly cannot figure out what the Republicans gain by doing this. Can someone please enlighten me? Because even at my most cynical, I can't see why they would do something so stupid.

They get more taxes to pay for the corporate tax cuts.

[Kris]

Did anyone notice the tax reform, decreasing traditional IRAs and 401ks?  The most common max being thrown out is $2500/year.  Would effect a lot of people here.

I honestly cannot figure out what the Republicans gain by doing this. Can someone please enlighten me? Because even at my most cynical, I can't see why they would do something so stupid.

They get more taxes to pay for the corporate tax cuts.

It’s literally that simple? They literally don’t care how much they are screwing future reducing their ability to contribute tax-free to an already pathetic substitute for pensions...

Ugh. Of course it’s that simple. God, I really think there is no bottom to the depravity of the GOP.

[ixtap]

Did anyone notice the tax reform, decreasing traditional IRAs and 401ks?  The most common max being thrown out is $2500/year.  Would effect a lot of people here.

I honestly cannot figure out what the Republicans gain by doing this. Can someone please enlighten me? Because even at my most cynical, I can't see why they would do something so stupid.

They get more taxes to pay for the corporate tax cuts.

It’s literally that simple? They literally don’t care how much they are screwing future reducing their ability to contribute tax-free to an already pathetic substitute for pensions...

Ugh. Of course it’s that simple. God, I really think there is no bottom to the depravity of the GOP.

According to my limited research, Americans who participate in 401k plans contribute an average of 6% of their salary. So, for a median salary of ~$60k, that comes to $3600. Experts would like them to be contributing closer to 15%. For the same income, that comes to $9000. Where did they come up with $2500?

The GOA says that Americans are not prepared for retirement; there is no social reason to impose this limit and it would probably leave even more Americans in the lurch at retirement, dependent on welfare programs.

Unless we all just keel over from lack of access to healthcare.

[wenchsenior]

Did anyone notice the tax reform, decreasing traditional IRAs and 401ks?  The most common max being thrown out is $2500/year.  Would effect a lot of people here.

I honestly cannot figure out what the Republicans gain by doing this. Can someone please enlighten me? Because even at my most cynical, I can't see why they would do something so stupid.

They get more taxes to pay for the corporate tax cuts.

It’s literally that simple? They literally don’t care how much they are screwing future reducing their ability to contribute tax-free to an already pathetic substitute for pensions...

Ugh. Of course it’s that simple. God, I really think there is no bottom to the depravity of the GOP.

According to my limited research, Americans who participate in 401k plans contribute an average of 6% of their salary. So, for a median salary of ~$60k, that comes to $3600. Experts would like them to be contributing closer to 15%. For the same income, that comes to $9000. Where did they come up with $2500?

The GOA says that Americans are not prepared for retirement; there is no social reason to impose this limit and it would probably leave even more Americans in the lurch at retirement, dependent on welfare programs.

Unless we all just keel over from lack of access to healthcare.

I doubt there is any social reason.  The GOP is still obsessed with the concept of trickle down economics, despite counterfactual evidence that it works. I suspect the GOP came up with 2500 because that was the amount that remained after they clawed back enough of the tax breaks and loopholes that allowed them to cut taxes on upper income and business to the amount they wanted.  Ending tax breaks for retirement savings has been proposed before, as part of bi-partisan, broad revamping of the tax code.  But those proposals notably lowered tax brackets, and treated most individuals and business more equitably.  I find it incredible that an entirely GOP gov't would even propose this.  Remember the freakout the GOP had when Obama proposed ending or reducing tax breaks for 529 accounts?  I'd expect this kind of proposal from the left, but this frankly astonishing.   

Not that I think it will end up in any final legislation.  But it is still incredible to see the GOP propose it.

[paddedhat]

I find the whole GOP tax stance on IRA contributions to be far from unexpected. They are not acting as a result of any kind of deeply held beliefs, such as holding trickle down to being an unquestionable theory that works, regardless of decades of evidence to the contrary. They are responding to their "donor class" or those who are holding the puppet strings. It doesn't matter if it's whoring out to the drug industry, and creating an epidemic that continues to kill 1700 Opioid abusers ever month, repealing any attempt at controlling our totally out of control heath care industry, or proposing the elimination of any pre-tax contributions to retirement at all, to further crush the working class, while shifting more tax burden away from the 1%. The average republican siting in congress, or the senate, is there for the opportunity to "get some" for themselves. Play the game, tell the constituents that you spend every waking moment of your life protecting the unborn and removing the stains left by that illegitimate black president, and that you're still worshiping God and the NRA regularly. Then you stick your hands out, wait for the "campaign contributions" to flow, and fuck all of us in the name of greed. Oddly enough, you're pretty safe, unless you get caught forcing your mistress to get an abortion, or are overheard defending Hillary. If you can avoid that mess, the dolts will reelect you, until your wallet is full, and you want to head to a cushy private sector gig, screwing the public for even more money.

No, when it comes to proposing the stunningly stupid idea of limiting retirement funding, there are no surprises here, just business as usual.

[Glenstache]

I find the whole GOP tax stance on IRA contributions to be far from unexpected. They are not acting as a result of any kind of deeply held beliefs, such as holding trickle down to being an unquestionable theory that works, regardless of decades of evidence to the contrary. They are responding to their "donor class" or those who are holding the puppet strings. It doesn't matter if it's whoring out to the drug industry, and creating an epidemic that continues to kill 1700 Opioid abusers ever month, repealing any attempt at controlling our totally out of control heath care industry, or proposing the elimination of any pre-tax contributions to retirement at all, to further crush the working class, while shifting more tax burden away from the 1%. The average republican siting in congress, or the senate, is there for the opportunity to "get some" for themselves. Play the game, tell the constituents that you spend every waking moment of your life protecting the unborn and removing the stains left by that illegitimate black president, and that you're still worshiping God and the NRA regularly. Then you stick your hands out, wait for the "campaign contributions" to flow, and fuck all of us in the name of greed. Oddly enough, you're pretty safe, unless you get caught forcing your mistress to get an abortion, or are overheard defending Hillary. If you can avoid that mess, the dolts will reelect you, until your wallet is full, and you want to head to a cushy private sector gig, screwing the public for even more money.

No, when it comes to proposing the stunningly stupid idea of limiting retirement funding, there are no surprises here, just business as usual.

This was a pretty good rant. Thank you.

[paddedhat]

Less of a rant, than a sad statement of fact. I also find no reason to think of the other side of the isle as much of an improvement. Sure the dems. won't take your health care away, and let you die in the street, so that Sheldon Adelson and Robert Mercer can pay a few dozen millions less in taxes next year, but they are still whores.  When you view people like Cory Booker, who has achieved near sainthood status in some circles, as he votes against prescription drug reform to "protect us from the danger of Canadian drugs". You then remember, " Oh, yea, Cory whored himself out to big pharma for a $400K bribe, (opps, that was a typo, it's a "campaign contribution") Legendary defender of the poor, minorities and disenfranchised, eh?

On the topic of the opioid mess, big pharma's puppet Mr. Marino,  "wrote" the law that effectively stopped the DEA from controlling the industry, as it pushed hundreds of millions of needless pills on our citizens. He then got it passed by near unanimous vote and signed, without comment, by Obama. Now he had to remove himself as the incoming drug czar, and he's all kinds of hurt that anybody doubts his motives. Fucking scum.

[MasterStache]

Less of a rant, than a sad statement of fact. I also find no reason to think of the other side of the isle as much of an improvement. Sure the dems. won't take your health care away, and let you die in the street, so that Sheldon Adelson and Robert Mercer can pay a few dozen millions less in taxes next year, but they are still whores.  When you view people like Cory Booker, who has achieved near sainthood status in some circles, as he votes against prescription drug reform to "protect us from the danger of Canadian drugs". You then remember, " Oh, yea, Cory whored himself out to big pharma for a $400K bribe, (opps, that was a typo, it's a "campaign contribution") Legendary defender of the poor, minorities and disenfranchised, eh?

On the topic of the opioid mess, big pharma's puppet Mr. Marino,  "wrote" the law that effectively stopped the DEA from controlling the industry, as it pushed hundreds of millions of needless pills on our citizens. He then got it passed by near unanimous vote and signed, without comment, by Obama. Now he had to remove himself as the incoming drug czar, and he's all kinds of hurt that anybody doubts his motives. Fucking scum.

+1 to your rants ("sad facts") on both sides of the isle.

[Kris]

Less of a rant, than a sad statement of fact. I also find no reason to think of the other side of the isle as much of an improvement. Sure the dems. won't take your health care away, and let you die in the street, so that Sheldon Adelson and Robert Mercer can pay a few dozen millions less in taxes next year, but they are still whores.  When you view people like Cory Booker, who has achieved near sainthood status in some circles, as he votes against prescription drug reform to "protect us from the danger of Canadian drugs". You then remember, " Oh, yea, Cory whored himself out to big pharma for a $400K bribe, (opps, that was a typo, it's a "campaign contribution") Legendary defender of the poor, minorities and disenfranchised, eh?

On the topic of the opioid mess, big pharma's puppet Mr. Marino,  "wrote" the law that effectively stopped the DEA from controlling the industry, as it pushed hundreds of millions of needless pills on our citizens. He then got it passed by near unanimous vote and signed, without comment, by Obama. Now he had to remove himself as the incoming drug czar, and he's all kinds of hurt that anybody doubts his motives. Fucking scum.

Agreed. Though sadly, the Dems are still quite an improvement over the GOP. Just not nearly what they need to be.

[wenchsenior]

Less of a rant, than a sad statement of fact. I also find no reason to think of the other side of the isle as much of an improvement. Sure the dems. won't take your health care away, and let you die in the street, so that Sheldon Adelson and Robert Mercer can pay a few dozen millions less in taxes next year, but they are still whores.  When you view people like Cory Booker, who has achieved near sainthood status in some circles, as he votes against prescription drug reform to "protect us from the danger of Canadian drugs". You then remember, " Oh, yea, Cory whored himself out to big pharma for a $400K bribe, (opps, that was a typo, it's a "campaign contribution") Legendary defender of the poor, minorities and disenfranchised, eh?

On the topic of the opioid mess, big pharma's puppet Mr. Marino,  "wrote" the law that effectively stopped the DEA from controlling the industry, as it pushed hundreds of millions of needless pills on our citizens. He then got it passed by near unanimous vote and signed, without comment, by Obama. Now he had to remove himself as the incoming drug czar, and he's all kinds of hurt that anybody doubts his motives. Fucking scum.

Agreed. Though sadly, the Dems are still quite an improvement over the GOP. Just not nearly what they need to be.

Also agree. Esp about how Booker seems to get a pass from so many of my extremely liberal friends.  It's weird.

[DoubleDown]

Most of this thread is entirely about daily outrages, which really just reinforces my prior that most people are debating the red-colored shed.

I would counter that most of the Trump Presidency has been about this so called 'bike shed effect'

I agree with the sentiment, but think the "dead cat on the table" metaphor is more apt. Someone -- i.e. Trump -- throws a dead cat on the conference table, and all discussion about anything reasonable stops to focus instead on the horror of the dead cat on the table. "Oh, you asked about why soldiers are in Niger and how they were killed? Well let me tell you that Obama and my other predecessors never called the families of dead soldiers. And what's with those NFL players taking a knee, those sons-of-bitches should be fired. YOU'RE FIRED! And NBC is FAKE NEWS, they should lose their broadcasting license!"

The bike shed effect is more about bureaucrats and committees focusing on things they understand vs large, complex problems that really deserve more attention. But this president is all about daily outrage and intentionally dividing people and creating distraction from his own failures and those of his administration.

[MasterStache]

And the plot thickens (if it could thicken anymore):

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-430000-russia-probe_us_59ec0f2fe4b00f08619f5232?ncid=applenews00001

[Johnez]

It’s literally that simple? They literally don’t care how much they are screwing future reducing their ability to contribute tax-free to an already pathetic substitute for pensions...

Ugh. Of course it’s that simple. God, I really think there is no bottom to the depravity of the GOP.

It's probably a trial balloon, nobody has their name attached to this moronic idea. What they'll do next in "normal world" is scrap the idea. In "Bizarro World," which we currently live in, they'll probably find the most vocal opponents and figure out a way to demonize them so that the rational opposition is neutered.

If the tax plan is their ace in the hole for driving 2018, I think they are running on fumes-it will be, and is already being obliterated as a tax cut for the rich at the expense of EVERYONE else.  In addition,  I hope Roy Moore opens his mouth more in Alabama....there could be a turning point coming.  I think Trump knows this nutjob can fuck up the GOP's larger plans.

[wenchsenior]

It’s literally that simple? They literally don’t care how much they are screwing future reducing their ability to contribute tax-free to an already pathetic substitute for pensions...

Ugh. Of course it’s that simple. God, I really think there is no bottom to the depravity of the GOP.

It's probably a trial balloon, nobody has their name attached to this moronic idea. What they'll do next in "normal world" is scrap the idea. In "Bizarro World," which we currently live in, they'll probably find the most vocal opponents and figure out a way to demonize them so that the rational opposition is neutered.

If the tax plan is their ace in the hole for driving 2018, I think they are running on fumes-it will be, and is already being obliterated as a tax cut for the rich at the expense of EVERYONE else.  In addition,  I hope Roy Moore opens his mouth more in Alabama....there could be a turning point coming.  I think Trump knows this nutjob can fuck up the GOP's larger plans.

I think that's giving Trump far too much credit for strategic analysis. 

[Johnez]

^You're right. Substitute whoever Trump listened to at the time he decided to *sorta* endorse Strange. Regardless, hope exists in the GOP turning into (or revealing istself) as the garish caricature of itself that turns off the majority. The Ds can capitalize here if they want. Tricky balance here, tiptoeing around guns, race, and religion though...

[SecondBreakfast]

Don't worry, American democracy will ensure that the people's voices are heard the financial industry's lobbyists are heard and their source of 401k fun-money is protected.

edit: Come to think of it, is this the long-forewarned downside of Vanguard and passive index funds? Low-fee index funds might outperform expensive stock-pickers, but without expensive stock-pickers there're no perfumed lobbyists to protect against government slash-and-burn raids.

[StarBright]

Don't worry, American democracy will ensure that the people's voices are heard the financial industry's lobbyists are heard and their source of 401k fun-money is protected.

edit: Come to think of it, is this the long-forewarned downside of Vanguard and passive index funds? Low-fee index funds might outperform expensive stock-pickers, but without expensive stock-pickers there're no perfumed lobbyists to protect against government slash-and-burn raids.

The President tweeted this morning that there will be no changes to 401k. But since we live in "bizarro world" as Jonhnez called it, now that Trump has weighed in on it I'm a little more concerned that this has legs.

[paddedhat]

Don't worry, American democracy will ensure that the people's voices are heard the financial industry's lobbyists are heard and their source of 401k fun-money is protected.

edit: Come to think of it, is this the long-forewarned downside of Vanguard and passive index funds? Low-fee index funds might outperform expensive stock-pickers, but without expensive stock-pickers there're no perfumed lobbyists to protect against government slash-and-burn raids.

The President tweeted this morning that there will be no changes to 401k. But since we live in "bizarro world" as Jonhnez called it, now that Trump has weighed in on it I'm a little more concerned that this has legs.

The other option is, tonight the orange one gives a "speech" to some think tank, and says the exact opposite, claiming that tax fairness involves everybody paying their share, and retirees are much better off if they get those taxes out of the way, upfront. On a related note, did you ever suffer through a Valedictorian speech at a high school graduation, and think, "please God, let this be over soon" ?  Now that dopey has stumbled fucked his way around the podium a bit, particularly the UN disaster of a speech, do you find yourself saying, "Jesus, who ever thought that perky little, irritating friend of my daughter would turn out to be, at seventeen and with only a HS education,  exponentially more articulate, rational and intelligent at the podium, than the leader of the free world is?

[DarkandStormy]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/report-white-house-rush-sending-033612921.html

“To the best of my knowledge I think I’ve called every family of somebody who’s died,” Trump told Fox News’ Brian Kilmeade during a radio interview. “It’s the hardest call to make ... the hardest thing for me to do is to do that.”

The Associated Press reported it had reached out to the families “of all 43 people who have died in military service since Trump became president,” but only “made contact with about half of the families.”

[BlueMR2]

I agree with the sentiment, but think the "dead cat on the table" metaphor is more apt. Someone -- i.e. Trump -- throws a dead cat on the conference table, and all discussion about anything reasonable stops to focus instead on the horror of the dead cat on the table. "Oh, you asked about why soldiers are in Niger and how they were killed? Well let me tell you that Obama and my other predecessors never called the families of dead soldiers. And what's with those NFL players taking a knee, those sons-of-bitches should be fired. YOU'RE FIRED! And NBC is FAKE NEWS, they should lose their broadcasting license!"

I'm starting to think he's playing us.  There's all this twitter non-sense, etc, going on, yet the country is running the best it has in decades.  Do we thrive on this kind of filth collectively?  Is this what it takes to get us going?

[scottish]

Don't worry, American democracy will ensure that the people's voices are heard the financial industry's lobbyists are heard and their source of 401k fun-money is protected.

edit: Come to think of it, is this the long-forewarned downside of Vanguard and passive index funds? Low-fee index funds might outperform expensive stock-pickers, but without expensive stock-pickers there're no perfumed lobbyists to protect against government slash-and-burn raids.

The President tweeted this morning that there will be no changes to 401k. But since we live in "bizarro world" as Jonhnez called it, now that Trump has weighed in on it I'm a little more concerned that this has legs.

The other option is, tonight the orange one gives a "speech" to some think tank, and says the exact opposite, claiming that tax fairness involves everybody paying their share, and retirees are much better off if they get those taxes out of the way, upfront. On a related note, did you ever suffer through a Valedictorian speech at a high school graduation, and think, "please God, let this be over soon" ?  Now that dopey has stumbled fucked his way around the podium a bit, particularly the UN disaster of a speech, do you find yourself saying, "Jesus, who ever thought that perky little, irritating friend of my daughter would turn out to be, at seventeen and with only a HS education,  exponentially more articulate, rational and intelligent at the podium, than the leader of the free world is?

Donald Trump, and the United States, are not the leader of the free world.     ain't nobody followin' where yer goin'

[wenchsenior]

You know, this incident just highlights how Trump even manages to fuck up my infintestimally rare moments of sympathy for him.  Calling the  bereaved families of dead soldiers et al. has got to be one of the most depressing and difficult things public officials do. No one expects presidents to be great at it, and no one expects him to personally call all the families.  And it's Trump, so of course he could be expected to bungle the empathy thing worse than usual. But I don't really blame him, that's a stretch for an empathy specialist like, e.g., Bill Clinton. 

But why does Trump have to go and make every moment where the focus should be on the soldier...about HIM?  Just say you called, it was sad and difficult to find words to try to comfort the family, but you nevertheless honor and appreciate the soldier's work and mission.  AND THEN SHUT THE FUCK UP, BECAUSE IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU. 

I used to live with a diagnosed narcissist, and even that person was never this oblivious to basic etiquette and job requirements, no matter how runaway his ego and how repressed his self-awareness.

Christ on a cracker, it's like there is not ONE responsibility of office that Trump can get right. 

[Glenstache]

I agree with the sentiment, but think the "dead cat on the table" metaphor is more apt. Someone -- i.e. Trump -- throws a dead cat on the conference table, and all discussion about anything reasonable stops to focus instead on the horror of the dead cat on the table. "Oh, you asked about why soldiers are in Niger and how they were killed? Well let me tell you that Obama and my other predecessors never called the families of dead soldiers. And what's with those NFL players taking a knee, those sons-of-bitches should be fired. YOU'RE FIRED! And NBC is FAKE NEWS, they should lose their broadcasting license!"

I'm starting to think he's playing us.  There's all this twitter non-sense, etc, going on, yet the country is running the best it has in decades.  Do we thrive on this kind of filth collectively?  Is this what it takes to get us going?

Some of us would beg to differ. Specifically, I would argue that in the real of what is happening in agencies such as the EPA and DOJ, this is not the case. I'm sure others can add to the list.

[ixtap]

I agree with the sentiment, but think the "dead cat on the table" metaphor is more apt. Someone -- i.e. Trump -- throws a dead cat on the conference table, and all discussion about anything reasonable stops to focus instead on the horror of the dead cat on the table. "Oh, you asked about why soldiers are in Niger and how they were killed? Well let me tell you that Obama and my other predecessors never called the families of dead soldiers. And what's with those NFL players taking a knee, those sons-of-bitches should be fired. YOU'RE FIRED! And NBC is FAKE NEWS, they should lose their broadcasting license!"

I'm starting to think he's playing us.  There's all this twitter non-sense, etc, going on, yet the country is running the best it has in decades.  Do we thrive on this kind of filth collectively?  Is this what it takes to get us going?

Some of us would beg to differ. Specifically, I would argue that in the real of what is happening in agencies such as the EPA and DOJ, this is not the case. I'm sure others can add to the list.

The stock market is doing well, I am not sure what measures you are using to say the country as a whole is thriving.

[Just Joe]

Maybe we could talk to people in the storm affected areas or someone touched by the pockets of violence around the country. See how they would say the country is working out this year.

[JLee]

Maybe we could talk to people in the storm affected areas or someone touched by the pockets of violence around the country. See how they would say the country is working out this year.

Puerto Rico might have something to say about it. You know, if they had electricity so they could get on the internet.

[paddedhat]

Don't worry, American democracy will ensure that the people's voices are heard the financial industry's lobbyists are heard and their source of 401k fun-money is protected.

edit: Come to think of it, is this the long-forewarned downside of Vanguard and passive index funds? Low-fee index funds might outperform expensive stock-pickers, but without expensive stock-pickers there're no perfumed lobbyists to protect against government slash-and-burn raids.

The President tweeted this morning that there will be no changes to 401k. But since we live in "bizarro world" as Jonhnez called it, now that Trump has weighed in on it I'm a little more concerned that this has legs.

The other option is, tonight the orange one gives a "speech" to some think tank, and says the exact opposite, claiming that tax fairness involves everybody paying their share, and retirees are much better off if they get those taxes out of the way, upfront. On a related note, did you ever suffer through a Valedictorian speech at a high school graduation, and think, "please God, let this be over soon" ?  Now that dopey has stumbled fucked his way around the podium a bit, particularly the UN disaster of a speech, do you find yourself saying, "Jesus, who ever thought that perky little, irritating friend of my daughter would turn out to be, at seventeen and with only a HS education,  exponentially more articulate, rational and intelligent at the podium, than the leader of the free world is?

Donald Trump, and the United States, are not the leader of the free world.     ain't nobody followin' where yer goin'

You are correct, I should of put that in sarcasm quotes. Like the old cowboy I once worked for used to say, "He couldn't lead a flock of starving vultures to a dead cow".

[ponyboy]

Puerto Rico has been given countless billions of dollars over the years.  Why was their infrastructure so poor?  Why wasnt their power grid ever upgraded?  Where did all the money go...yep...corruption.  Its easy to be angry at the government for not doing more at the moment but the government has been providing to them for a long time. 

I feel sorry for the people there since their local politicos screwed them for personal gains.

[Barbaebigode]

I agree with the sentiment, but think the "dead cat on the table" metaphor is more apt. Someone -- i.e. Trump -- throws a dead cat on the conference table, and all discussion about anything reasonable stops to focus instead on the horror of the dead cat on the table. "Oh, you asked about why soldiers are in Niger and how they were killed? Well let me tell you that Obama and my other predecessors never called the families of dead soldiers. And what's with those NFL players taking a knee, those sons-of-bitches should be fired. YOU'RE FIRED! And NBC is FAKE NEWS, they should lose their broadcasting license!"

I'm starting to think he's playing us.  There's all this twitter non-sense, etc, going on, yet the country is running the best it has in decades.  Do we thrive on this kind of filth collectively?  Is this what it takes to get us going?

Some of us would beg to differ. Specifically, I would argue that in the real of what is happening in agencies such as the EPA and DOJ, this is not the case. I'm sure others can add to the list.

Well according to trump the "real" unemployment rate was 42% before the election in contrast with the fake rate of around 4% peddled by the fake news media. So now a real rate of around 4% is proof that the country is being well run, right? That's how those things work, right?

[Malloy]

Puerto Rico has been given countless billions of dollars over the years.  Why was their infrastructure so poor?  Why wasnt their power grid ever upgraded?  Where did all the money go...yep...corruption.  Its easy to be angry at the government for not doing more at the moment but the government has been providing to them for a long time. 

I feel sorry for the people there since their local politicos screwed them for personal gains.

Do you mean you feel sorry for them, or that you voted to accelerate the corruption process?  Check out this $300 million dollar repair contract going to a two person firm from Zinke's hometown where his son interned this summer.

http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/356818-small-company-from-trump-interior-chiefs-hometown-wins-massive-contract

How's that swamp draining going? 

[NoStacheOhio]

Puerto Rico has been given countless billions of dollars over the years.  Why was their infrastructure so poor?  Why wasnt their power grid ever upgraded?  Where did all the money go...yep...corruption.  Its easy to be angry at the government for not doing more at the moment but the government has been providing to them for a long time. 

I feel sorry for the people there since their local politicos screwed them for personal gains.

I'm not confident the mainland power grid could stand up to that much. I don't think it's really improved much even after the great blackout.

[Glenstache]

Puerto Rico has been given countless billions of dollars over the years.  Why was their infrastructure so poor?  Why wasnt their power grid ever upgraded?  Where did all the money go...yep...corruption.  Its easy to be angry at the government for not doing more at the moment but the government has been providing to them for a long time. 

I feel sorry for the people there since their local politicos screwed them for personal gains.

Or this:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-puerto-ricos-electric-grid-stood-no-chance-against-maria/

[A Definite Beta Guy]

Most of this thread is entirely about daily outrages, which really just reinforces my prior that most people are debating the red-colored shed.

I would counter that most of the Trump Presidency has been about this so called 'bike shed effect' (appropriately ironic name for a MMM forum).  Trump admitted that he doesn't understand healthcare, but ACA is a 'disaster' and something must be done so he signs a couple executive orders throwing insurers into chaos, as opposed to working to generate a real solution to the central issues.  Every time significant issues arise (global warming, a nuclear North Korea, Puerto Rico devastated, Iran's nuclear ambitions, DACA, Vegas shooting, civil strife) we get renewed focus on the 'fake' media, inauguration crowd size, Comey being corrupt, Hillary needing to be investigated, the affront of football players kneeling...

How long can this circus go on before Americans see that the price of admission is too high?

I don't disagree, Trump is a media personality and prefers to reach for outrages to try to bolster his popularity. He isn't very good at it compared to most politicians, but all politicians do something similar.

Political strategists specifically focus on wedge issues that people are passionate about, which is also basically "bike shed." At least from my POV.

How long can the circus go on? I don't see any reason why it can't go on forever. People are highly polarized and highly politically active. It is to both side's selfish benefit to ensure this state of affairs continues.

[infogoon]

With Flake and Corker announcing that they're not running for reelection, as well as openly trashing the President, the 2018 midterms ought to be interesting. I wonder if that waterlogged hobo corpse Bannon will manage to get a couple of cartoonishly awful candidates on the ballot and hand Arizona and Tennessee over to the Dems.

[NoStacheOhio]

With Flake and Corker announcing that they're not running for reelection, as well as openly trashing the President, the 2018 midterms ought to be interesting. I wonder if that waterlogged hobo corpse Bannon will manage to get a couple of cartoonishly awful candidates on the ballot and hand Arizona and Tennessee over to the Dems.

Don't forget Trump is cartoonishly awful, and now occupies the White House. Anything can happen.

[Glenstache]

With Flake and Corker announcing that they're not running for reelection, as well as openly trashing the President, the 2018 midterms ought to be interesting. I wonder if that waterlogged hobo corpse Bannon will manage to get a couple of cartoonishly awful candidates on the ballot and hand Arizona and Tennessee over to the Dems.

Don't forget Trump is cartoonishly awful, and now occupies the White House. Anything can happen.

As is Roy Moore.

[Malloy]

With Flake and Corker announcing that they're not running for reelection, as well as openly trashing the President, the 2018 midterms ought to be interesting. I wonder if that waterlogged hobo corpse Bannon will manage to get a couple of cartoonishly awful candidates on the ballot and hand Arizona and Tennessee over to the Dems.

Don't forget Trump is cartoonishly awful, and now occupies the White House. Anything can happen.

Right.  The problem is that the vast majority of Republican voters DO.NOT.PUNISH.THEIR.PARTY for any reason.  Because of this, their candidates can devolve into increasingly awful people without any repercussions.  We are in the downslope now. I'm fairly sure that Roy Moore will be elected, which will lower the floor another few inches (miles) for how awful a GOP candidate can be and still win.  Indeed, there is a sizable portion of the GOP base that sees this awfulness as a feature, not a bug.  But, like the poor, these half-wits will always be with us. It's the non-crazy GOP voters that enable it by understanding full well how awful people like Trump and Roy Moore are, but dutifully voting for them nonetheless. Unlike their elected representatives who line their pockets along the way, these middle class and upper middle class voters have no excuse.  They largely do not want the public benefits in the US to be cut and do not want GOP tax cuts on corporations or the rich.  Their policy preferences line up more squarely with the Democrats, even on many culture war issues.  I do not understand these people and grow weary of trying to even establish a common set of facts with them. 

If you are out there, GOP voters, and you want to know how to stop the madness, I will tell you how. STOP VOTING FOR THESE PEOPLE. Start voting for Democrats.  I've been doing it for years, and I haven't yet turned into a baby killer Antifa zombie welfare queen.  I'm like you, just a reasonable person with a healthy 'stache. I know that Democrats aren't perfect, and they need a responsible opposition party to serve as a check on their policies.  But handing more and more power to crazy Republicans won't make Republicans more responsible.  Both parties are not the same.  One is clearly worse than the other.  Stop rewarding Republican bad behavior and stop pretending that Democrats have to be perfect to get your vote when you'll vote for someone as manifestly awful as Donald Trump.

[DarkandStormy]

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/20/trump-nominees-working-senate-approval-243972

Welcome to fascism, America.

Trump nominees show up for work without waiting for Senate approval

[Kris]

With Flake and Corker announcing that they're not running for reelection, as well as openly trashing the President, the 2018 midterms ought to be interesting. I wonder if that waterlogged hobo corpse Bannon will manage to get a couple of cartoonishly awful candidates on the ballot and hand Arizona and Tennessee over to the Dems.

Don't forget Trump is cartoonishly awful, and now occupies the White House. Anything can happen.

Right.  The problem is that the vast majority of Republican voters DO.NOT.PUNISH.THEIR.PARTY for any reason.  Because of this, their candidates can devolve into increasingly awful people without any repercussions.  We are in the downslope now. I'm fairly sure that Roy Moore will be elected, which will lower the floor another few inches (miles) for how awful a GOP candidate can be and still win.  Indeed, there is a sizable portion of the GOP base that sees this awfulness as a feature, not a bug.  But, like the poor, these half-wits will always be with us. It's the non-crazy GOP voters that enable it by understanding full well how awful people like Trump and Roy Moore are, but dutifully voting for them nonetheless. Unlike their elected representatives who line their pockets along the way, these middle class and upper middle class voters have no excuse.  They largely do not want the public benefits in the US to be cut and do not want GOP tax cuts on corporations or the rich.  Their policy preferences line up more squarely with the Democrats, even on many culture war issues.  I do not understand these people and grow weary of trying to even establish a common set of facts with them. 

If you are out there, GOP voters, and you want to know how to stop the madness, I will tell you how. STOP VOTING FOR THESE PEOPLE. Start voting for Democrats.  I've been doing it for years, and I haven't yet turned into a baby killer Antifa zombie welfare queen.  I'm like you, just a reasonable person with a healthy 'stache. I know that Democrats aren't perfect, and they need a responsible opposition party to serve as a check on their policies.  But handing more and more power to crazy Republicans won't make Republicans more responsible.  Both parties are not the same.  One is clearly worse than the other.  Stop rewarding Republican bad behavior and stop pretending that Democrats have to be perfect to get your vote when you'll vote for someone as manifestly awful as Donald Trump.

+1.

[Just Joe]

Puerto Rico has been given countless billions of dollars over the years.  Why was their infrastructure so poor?  Why wasnt their power grid ever upgraded?  Where did all the money go...yep...corruption.  Its easy to be angry at the government for not doing more at the moment but the government has been providing to them for a long time. 

I feel sorry for the people there since their local politicos screwed them for personal gains.

Or this:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-puerto-ricos-electric-grid-stood-no-chance-against-maria/

With the history's largest military - why aren't the SeaBees and Army/Air Force/Marine specialists doing triage on PR's grid?

Dang - why does everything need to be so hard to accomplish in the USA?

It is as if they have to wait for the right contractor to appear on their radar. Conspiracy theory: the right politically connected contractor to appear.

[ixtap]

Puerto Rico has been given countless billions of dollars over the years.  Why was their infrastructure so poor?  Why wasnt their power grid ever upgraded?  Where did all the money go...yep...corruption.  Its easy to be angry at the government for not doing more at the moment but the government has been providing to them for a long time. 

I feel sorry for the people there since their local politicos screwed them for personal gains.

Or this:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-puerto-ricos-electric-grid-stood-no-chance-against-maria/

With the history's largest military - why aren't the SeaBees and Army/Air Force/Marine specialists doing triage on PR's grid?

Dang - why does everything need to be so hard to accomplish in the USA?

It is as if they have to wait for the right contractor to appear on their radar. Conspiracy theory: the right politically connected contractor to appear.

What happened to Musk's plan?