Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 583773 times)

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5450 on: December 21, 2018, 03:09:07 PM »
He fights every single thing.

Now he's fighting himself.  Last week he proudly declared he would shut down the government if he didn't get his wall funding.  Then Congress unanimously passed a bipartisan budget agreement to keep the government open, and he agreed to sign it, then he (punches self in dick) changes his mind and decides to oppose the done deal.  And the cherry on top is that he's now trying to blame democrats for the shutdown that he himself first asked for, then proudly claimed ownership of, then agreed to not pursue, then decided he wanted after all.

Dude, this is all you all the way.  I can't imagine anyone who watches the news, even your most blindly loyal supporters, will find any way to blame anyone but you.
Ann Coulter trolled him on Twitter, and DJT reversed course.  He even unfollowed her at first, only to have her write an article put onto the front page of Breitbart with the title (and I am not making this up): Gutless President in Wall-Less Country.

A few hours after the article went up on Breitbart DJT decided to oppose the CR he said just hours earlier that he would sign.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5451 on: December 21, 2018, 03:15:10 PM »
The funny thing about all this is that the very people who are gonna be crowing from the rooftops supporting Trump's pullout were the selfsame people who were all gung ho about going into places like Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place.
Not me.

In the first place, "15 Saudis, an Egyptian and a couple of guys from the Gulf attacked us. We invade... Iraq!" makes no fucking sense at all. "Hitler has invaded Poland. We declare war on... France!" If bombs fell on any country, it should have been Saudi Arabia. Yes, the blowback would have been insane and it would have been a clusterfuck, a shutdown of supply of 40% of the world's traded oil through the Gulf, a global recession and millions of dead as everyone went all-in. But it at least would have made sense.

The Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden to an international tribunal to be tried under Sharia law in Pakistan. This would have been less than ideal, but intelligently-handled could have been a good way to bring the US together with Islamic countries. I thought that was a better idea than invading.

And then when the invasion happened the Taliban offered peace, a power-sharing arrangement with the other factions. Since it was plain they'd never be completely eliminated, it was likewise obvious that this would be the eventual peace deal, whether after 5 years or 50. The US turned this down. Now the US is negotiating with the Taliban for a power-sharing arrangement with other factions... but the Taliban won't deal with the corrupt clowns in Kabul, they have enough corrupt clowns of their own.

I was also concerned that a conflict in Afghanistan could spill over into neighbouring countries, I was particularly worried about Pakistan as it's a nuclear state. And indeed it has spilled over there, though luckily not much into the other stans around Afghanistan.

The invasion of Iraq I was against from the start. Saddam was mostly complying with foreign inspections, just putting up some token resistance for domestic political reasons, and a decade of sanctions meant he wouldn't have the materials for much in the way of WMD anyway. And even when he had Western support to build things, they still came out crap, like the Scuds landing miles off target, it was the worst kind of weapon, one that pisses everyone off but does no militarily significant damage. As for Saddam supporting Al Qaeda... no. He was a secular dictator, and had eliminated Islamic radicalism in Iraq with all the force of crimes against humanity.

So there was no reason to invade Iraq. It was a war of aggression. And it was obvious that without a unifying leader - whether unifying by common respect, like a good constitutional monarch, or unifying by violence, like Saddam - Iraq would fall apart into sectarian conflict.

Likewise, I did not support NATO backstabbing Gaddafi and supporting the rebels there. That country's still in civil war, by the way, everyone seems to have forgotten about that particular clusterfuck. Everyone except North Korea, of course, who from that learned the useful lesson also taught them by the Iraq experience: if you have WMD, don't give them up, because your country will end up in civil war and the leader dead in a ditch.


Nor yet have I supported the US-supported war in Yemen, still less the war in Syria. And I don't support Australia's special forces being in the Philippines working to knock over the Islamic rebels there.

There are some other conflicts but I think I have made my point: no, I was always against these conflicts. Yes, it would be better if they were ended. But the US has not shown it is able to do this productively. So the arsonist should just walk away from the burning building and leave others to it.

The real argument for staying is the sunk cost fallacy. Walk away from the blackjack table, you're spending the mortgage.

This is nuts. All the right-wing fruit loops who wanted to nuke the world 17 years ago are now banging on about Trump the peacemaker. And all the left-wing fruit loops who were out protesting the wars years ago are now saying Trump is Neville Chamberlain, or Quisling or something. Look, get over your love-boner or hate-boner for Trump, and consider: what is good for the US, and what is good for the world?

If you decide that continuing these wars is good for the world, then decide what price you are willing to pay. So far the cost is,

- 17 years and 2 months of conflict
- 3 million dead (I updated this, including the side conflicts and the indirect deaths)
- $1 trillion cost to the US alone - this is ignoring, how much would it cost to bring Iraq back to where it was? Syria?

If you think it's worth fighting on, please express exactly how many years, lives and dollars you're willing to spend. If we don't walk away now, then when?

Unlike most of those posting these comments, I have felt the weight of a pack on my back, and I have lost someone close to me in a terrorist incident. So when I say we should or should not remain at war, I have some idea of what we are asking of our soldiers, and I have some skin in the "preventing terrorism" game.

If Trump is wrong and we should not pull out, then exactly when should we pull out? How many years, lives and dollars would you be willing to spend? Would this change if the years, lives and dollars were yours?


Given the focus of this forum is FIRE, who among you would give up your FIRE and work until death so we could afford to keep fighting these wars? You who so blithely saying we should fight on, who among you has sacrificed or would sacrifice anything for it? Apart from simply reflexively rejecting anything the Oompah Loompah says, is this simply the bravery of being out of range?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5452 on: December 21, 2018, 03:37:01 PM »
@Kyle Schuant - you are just banging away on your drum but havent bothered to listen to the tunes of those around you.
Consider the cost of WWII (80MM and over a trillion spent).  Consider what the next one would cost.    Consider the hundreds-of-thousands killed by Saddam and al-Assad each.  What are the costs of walking away?

You're not the only one with direct and personal experience.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5453 on: December 21, 2018, 03:44:53 PM »
The funny thing about all this is that the very people who are gonna be crowing from the rooftops supporting Trump's pullout were the selfsame people who were all gung ho about going into places like Iraq and Afghanistan in the first place.

Unlike most of those posting these comments, I have felt the weight of a pack on my back

Oh, please. First of all, you have no way of knowing this. Secondly, stop trying to imply this means you are uniquely qualified to have an opinion. I might just as easily say, "Unlike you, I actually live in the US, so I know what I'm talking about."

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5454 on: December 21, 2018, 04:17:33 PM »
I also was against the invasion of Iraq (Saddam) after 9/11. It was a trumped up rationale and GW used the patriotism card to go after Iraq, when it was in fact actors from Saudi Arabia and Osama who were behind 9/11.

However, the Taliban is not exactly into power sharing or negotiation. Moderates and secularists are not allowed under their world view, and do not believe in compromise.  The only thing that works there is containment using a superior military power. I am only getting this from what I have read in the news (and reading Malala)

I am not some expert on foreign affairs. I actually rely on what foreign policy experts, who have decades dealing with these complicated issues assess on what is going on.  I don't think me, as an armchair observer, have some superior view on the subject. What I am afraid of, is that Trump feels that he does (without any knowledge, background, or guidance (from both our own military, and our own allies) know better and is just going to do whatever he damns feels like, even though it is actually working against US and our allies interests, and weakens our position. He's just going to keep getting rid of any qualified person in the room who dissents with him, until he has an echo chamber and cheerleader squad. It's amazing how he has undone historic checks and balances in such a short period of time. 

Nickel

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5455 on: December 21, 2018, 04:52:10 PM »
Reading through this topic suddenly has me worried.

Russia is aligning itself with Syria, Iran, and Turkey against NATO.  Is it just a coincidence that Trump has spent so much time and effort cozying up to the countries in this new alliance, while simultaneously insulting and/or abandoning our NATO partners?

Under Donald Trump, the US is basically switching sides in the global power conflict.  If that's the case, then all 8 of the points I listed above are actually reasons why we should LEAVE Syria, not reasons why we should stay.  If Trump has decided to join forces with the planet's oppressive dictators to oppose the spread of democracy and undermine the post-WWII allied coalition, then this decision suddenly makes a lot more sense.  He wants that oil to go to Iran and Russia.  He wants to undermine NATO. 

Remember that Trump initially refused to support the article 5 NATO mutual defense provisions.  He's openly hostile to the leaders of France and Germany.  He says Russia should be our new best friend, despite their efforts to undermine democracy (both ours and theirs).  He sided with Turkey over the advice of Mattis and the State Department.  He opposed the Iran deal.  He supported MBS in Saudi Arabia murdering a journalist.  He made peace with a nuclear North Korea (and by peace I mean told NK to go ahead do whatever it wants).  All of a sudden I'm seeing a pattern here. 

Donald Trump has led America on a complete 180 on the global stage, away from cooperative allied peacekeepers and towards violent dictatorships that oppose democracy.  It's been slow and subtle, but taken in totality the trend is suddenly very clear to me.

The resignation letter that Mattis wrote looks rather quaint, from this perspective.  Like so many other Americans, he was apparently laboring under the delusion that Trump actually cares about democracy or freedom or security or peace.  Trump only cares about power, and he aspires to be a strongman dictator like Putin or Erdogan or MBS or Kim or al-Assad.  He gets there by leading America into an alliance with these dictators while subverting our previous alliances with democracies.  If I'm right, we'll see more NATO rebuttals in our near future.

on a side note:  embracing oppressive dictatorship is probably Trump's best chance at saving his personal fortune and freedom.

That was a bad ass epiphany.  Putin knows how to play this chess game. 

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5456 on: December 21, 2018, 04:55:10 PM »
He fights every single thing.

Now he's fighting himself.  Last week he proudly declared he would shut down the government if he didn't get his wall funding.  Then Congress unanimously passed a bipartisan budget agreement to keep the government open, and he agreed to sign it, then he (punches self in dick) changes his mind and decides to oppose the done deal.  And the cherry on top is that he's now trying to blame democrats for the shutdown that he himself first asked for, then proudly claimed ownership of, then agreed to not pursue, then decided he wanted after all.

Dude, this is all you all the way.  I can't imagine anyone who watches the news, even your most blindly loyal supporters, will find any way to blame anyone but you.
Ann Coulter trolled him on Twitter, and DJT reversed course.  He even unfollowed her at first, only to have her write an article put onto the front page of Breitbart with the title (and I am not making this up): Gutless President in Wall-Less Country.

A few hours after the article went up on Breitbart DJT decided to oppose the CR he said just hours earlier that he would sign.

He is SO easily played. Does he realize how much people play him? Including probably his own wife.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5457 on: December 22, 2018, 05:21:20 AM »
I'm not sure Trump cares about power, I think he cares about money and personal comfort/safety.

In this case, I think power is Trump's only pathway to personal comfort and safety.  He knows his life in America is over as soon as he leaves office, so he has to either assume dictatorial powers here or at least cultivate a friendly dictatorship he can go live in after he's done disassembling the United States.  If he can't assume Putin-like powers here, he'll have to go live in the Trump Tower Moscow under Putin's protection.  Or maybe MBS will let him build something nice in Riyadh.

It's just shocking to me how much power one man has to fundamentally alter the course of global politics.  He's personally reversed decades of entrenched US policies, without asking anyone, without the support of his own military or political leaders, and without getting a majority of the voters on his side.  He's like a rogue actor, subverting the carefully constructed peace we've built around democracies and partnerships in favor of his own desires to be all-powerful like Putin.  It's deeply unsettling how he can tear the entire world apart using just his own tiny hands.


I think we are both right: Trump doesn't care about power for its own sake, but only in relation to what it can bring him personally in comfort and safety.  That is why he is so weak with Putin, Xi, Kim and Erdogan.  All of them are exercising power for its own sake, and to strengthen their countries in the world, and the personal benefits (such as Putin's fortune) are just a side benefit.  So when they flex their muscles against Trump he gives in because it doesn't affect him personally.  (All Putin's manoeuvering to provide Trump with personal benefits was probably unnecessary: he would be caving in to Putin anyway).   The problem is that Trump's personal weakness is also making America weak, in ways that will probably be impossible to recover from, and that makes the world less safe for all of us.  The first to suffer from that will be the poor bloody Kurds, followed by the Ukrainians.


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5459 on: December 22, 2018, 09:21:47 AM »
At least while we are talking about the wall, nobody is noticing that Trump is lifting some if the Russia sanctions. Remember all those meetings in 2016 and 2017 about sanctions and adoptions? Thus is what fulfilling those promises looks like.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/19/us/politics/sanctions-oleg-deripaska-russia-trump.html

A big part of Russia's game has been to gut the Magnitsky act because it directly sanctions power brokers in Russia with ties to Putin. It is effective and why Russia wants it gone.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5460 on: December 22, 2018, 09:34:33 AM »
The problem is that Trump's personal weakness is also making America weak, in ways that will probably be impossible to recover from, and that makes the world less safe for all of us. 

As a tiny bright spot in the middle of this ongoing disaster, I'm trying to focus on the possibility of recovery.  The fact that Trump could single handedly spin America's foreign policy and global standing on a dime in such a short period of time leads me to believe that a future president who actually cares about American might be able to spin it back.  An acolyte of the pro-business pro-democracy pro-NATO wing of American politicians (which was previously the only wing, in both parties) can probably reforge NATO after taking office, and tell Putin to go suck a big red white and blue dick. 

We will still have the world's most capable military.  We will still have the world's strongest economy, and as long as we don't build any fucking walls we will always have a ready supply of inexpensive labor ready to build whatever the next global war requires.  We still have the world's most technologically advanced research programs in virtually every field.  And as soon as we get rid of Trump and his ridiculous list of embarrassingly unqualified cabinet officials, we have a deep bench of qualified and thoughtful leaders capable of putting all of those assets to use.

So I don't think America is done for just yet.  We're going to have a cringey couple of games because somebody put Airbud in at quarterback, but the fundamentals are still there for our team to turn it around as soon as we figure out that the dog can't play football.  Virtually any reasonably competent politician who comes after him will start with a huge head start over every other nation on Earth, if he/she can just stop lighting fires.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5461 on: December 22, 2018, 10:08:31 AM »
I try to stay optimistic, then I hear that Trump wants to fire the Fed Chief - It's like Trump has whatever the opposite of a 'Midas Touch' is.

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Top West Wing economic advisers have warned Trump that firing Powell would only exacerbate the problem the President is ostensibly trying to solve: nose-diving markets. The unprecedented move would likely cause more turmoil.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5462 on: December 22, 2018, 11:10:08 AM »
The problem is that Trump's personal weakness is also making America weak, in ways that will probably be impossible to recover from, and that makes the world less safe for all of us. 

As a tiny bright spot in the middle of this ongoing disaster, I'm trying to focus on the possibility of recovery.  The fact that Trump could single handedly spin America's foreign policy and global standing on a dime in such a short period of time leads me to believe that a future president who actually cares about American might be able to spin it back.  An acolyte of the pro-business pro-democracy pro-NATO wing of American politicians (which was previously the only wing, in both parties) can probably reforge NATO after taking office, and tell Putin to go suck a big red white and blue dick. 

We will still have the world's most capable military.  We will still have the world's strongest economy, and as long as we don't build any fucking walls we will always have a ready supply of inexpensive labor ready to build whatever the next global war requires.  We still have the world's most technologically advanced research programs in virtually every field.  And as soon as we get rid of Trump and his ridiculous list of embarrassingly unqualified cabinet officials, we have a deep bench of qualified and thoughtful leaders capable of putting all of those assets to use.

So I don't think America is done for just yet.  We're going to have a cringey couple of games because somebody put Airbud in at quarterback, but the fundamentals are still there for our team to turn it around as soon as we figure out that the dog can't play football.  Virtually any reasonably competent politician who comes after him will start with a huge head start over every other nation on Earth, if he/she can just stop lighting fires.

Because of Trump (arguably also Obama to some extent on some of them) the USA has already lost its leadership role on climate change, on south east asia trade/the south China seas/North Korea, on the middle east and on Ukraine, on infrastructure development in Africa and South America.  Events on all of those have already moved on from where the USA was, and are continuing to move.  There just isn't the space for the USA to get its leadership role of them back.  The only question is: how fast can you get rid of Trump, and can you put someone in his place who has a clue or two about international relations (not seeing Pence in that role, frankly, nor a significant number of the Democratic possibles) before even more things get beyond USA influence.

I hear that the USA is already losing out to China on artificial intelligence, by the way.  Your best bet for clawing back some influence is the strict application of legal and financial probity on criminals, human rights violaters and countries which go on illegal international adventures.  Good luck with that as long as Trump and any of his Republican cronies are in power.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5463 on: December 22, 2018, 11:24:22 AM »
As a more immediate problem, the large parts of the US government are technically shut down today because Trump changed his mind on the unanimously-approved bipartisan budget bill that didn't include billions of dollars for his useless wall.  He apparently decided that the four day weekend for Christmas was a good time to withhold paychecks from a million workers.  I'm baffled.

What's his end game here?  What solution does he think can be reached?  He already lost the midterm elections in a landslide, so democrats will be taking over the House in January.  He already asked for the shutdown and then publicly claimed that he was proud to shut it down.  He owns this right now, and I don't see what possible motivation the democrats might have to even negotiate, much less make any concessions.  There is literally no benefit in it for them, when their position only strengthens by waiting it out.

It seems like an act of pure charity that Schumer and Pelosi have agreed to sit down to talk about a compromise solution to reopen the government.  What do they think they can get out of that deal?  Is it just a head fake, to give the impression they are not being obstructionist, when obstructionism is totally to their benefit in this situation? 

The only solution that I can envision involves Trump relenting on the wall.  I suspect he could get at least ten or fifteen democratic senators to approve a budget that included funding for border security, as long as it's not explicitly for a useless wall.  It's only his pride that refuses to let him reach any compromises on this issue that might actually help.

Give up the dumb wall idea, Donald.  Say you've realized that border security is a multifaceted problem and that funding for increased manpower and technology and the prosecution of illegal workers is a key part of securing the border, far more effective than any kind of physical barrier.  Claim victory in convincing democrats to vote for border security that actually matters, instead of a useless wall.  Everyone wins!

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5464 on: December 22, 2018, 12:36:37 PM »
Schumer is coming out looking stronger as time goes on the more he digs in to oppose wasting $5B on a taxpayer funded wall.  I'm surprised he is not thumping his bare chest yet.  Trump promised that Mexico would pay for a wall, so it makes no sense to shut down the US government for not funding it.  Is Trump really going to fight and die on this hill, getting Congress to agree to make the US pay which wasn't even a campaign promise?  I think he has finally lost it.

accolay

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5465 on: December 22, 2018, 02:02:05 PM »
I can't imagine anyone who watches the news, even your most blindly loyal supporters, will find any way to blame anyone but you.
Very optimistic, Sol.
As a tiny bright spot in the middle of this ongoing disaster, I'm trying to focus on the possibility of recovery.  The fact that Trump could single handedly spin America's foreign policy and global standing on a dime in such a short period of time leads me to believe that a future president who actually cares about American might be able to spin it back.
I certainly hope so, but I'm not feeling very good about it. For example, I don't know that farmers will find they can reopen the lost Chinese market for soy that took years to establish. And now China has the added bonus of giving the U.S. the finger.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5466 on: December 23, 2018, 07:49:29 AM »
I wonder if the Dems now have the ultimate bargaining power with Dreamers and ACA? If they agree to give Trump the or some money he wants but in exchange he has to agree to allowing Dreamers a path to citizenship and to stabilize ACA to make it better not chop it to pieces. Maybe they can pin his ears to the wall and get what they want even if they have to give him what he wants. However, Dems made a statement they were not going to give him the money now or ever.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5467 on: December 23, 2018, 08:05:09 AM »
Yeah give don $5B to start a wall and get MAJOR concessions out of him on other stuff like dreamers, healthcare, etc. It's not like his administration is competant enough to get a wall built anyway.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5468 on: December 23, 2018, 09:09:19 AM »
If they agree to give Trump the or some money he wants but in exchange he has to agree to allowing Dreamers a path to citizenship and to stabilize ACA

They already tried this.  Remember that the last version of the budget gave trump not 5 but 25 billion dollars for border security, in exchange for a DACA fix.  He turned it down.

Though I'm sure he's kicking himself about it now, because he's unlikely to ever see such a generous offer again after his losses in the midterms.  Master negotiator my ass.

He has maneuvered himself into a corner because he is so easily manipulated by other tv personalities.  He lacks the convictions to makes his own decisions, so he's just trying to constantly appease the boob tube.  That weakness is what cost him his strongest negotiating position with nothing to show for it, before the midterms, and it's why he's now stuck in a no-win situation on the shutdown.

I'm conflicted.  On the one hand I oppose most of his policy positions, but on the other I would prefer our country had a leader who wasn't a doddering old doofus incapapable of getting anything done.  I'm not accustomed to being relieved when the president fails.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5469 on: December 23, 2018, 09:22:10 AM »

Build the wall - it's peanuts compared to $10 TRILLION cost of illegal immigration as shown in the study I provided the link to in the ACA thread.  America voted in Trump, and the wall was a big point of his campaign.  It's also way overdue.  Get it done.

I would be all for improvements to the ACA also for a grand bargain.  Trump is a deal maker, so let's make it work.

Thank God it's not Hillimonster in there, or we would have no hope.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5470 on: December 23, 2018, 09:31:29 AM »
If they agree to give Trump the or some money he wants but in exchange he has to agree to allowing Dreamers a path to citizenship and to stabilize ACA

They already tried this.  Remember that the last version of the budget gave trump not 5 but 25 billion dollars for border security, in exchange for a DACA fix.  He turned it down.

Though I'm sure he's kicking himself about it now, because he's unlikely to ever see such a generous offer again after his losses in the midterms.  Master negotiator my ass.

He has maneuvered himself into a corner because he is so easily manipulated by other tv personalities.  He lacks the convictions to makes his own decisions, so he's just trying to constantly appease the boob tube.  That weakness is what cost him his strongest negotiating position with nothing to show for it, before the midterms, and it's why he's now stuck in a no-win situation on the shutdown.

I'm conflicted.  On the one hand I oppose most of his policy positions, but on the other I would prefer our country had a leader who wasn't a doddering old doofus incapapable of getting anything done.  I'm not accustomed to being relieved when the president fails.


Oh! I forgot about that! He has definitely gotten himself into a corner. However, I am sure he is doing his best to conjure up some evil, slimy, underhanded deal. He will have to meet with all his TV friends to ask them what to do. Maybe it is time Trump woke up and sees that his little friends have not be his guiding light after all. Someone should tell Trump these people have duped him into looking like a clown.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5471 on: December 23, 2018, 09:47:01 AM »
it's peanuts compared to $10 TRILLION cost of illegal immigration as shown in the study I provided

I'm assuming that you already know that this 10T number is complete bullshit from every angle, right?  You can't seriously need me to spell out for you all of the flaws in that analysis, if you've read it yourself.

If you believe that 10T number, then you must also think America would be better off if we deported every US citizen with less than a 4 year college degree.  Just maybe, those hundreds of millions of people have value to our country that isn't measured in the taxes they have already paid?

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America voted in Trump

Well, technically, 46% of America voted for Trump and 48% voted for his opponent.  You probably shouldn't be crowing about a mandate when you can't even get more people to vote for you than against you.

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and the wall was a big point of his campaign.  It's also way overdue.  Get it done.

During the campaign, I thought "the wall" was metaphorical.  Like it was always a symbol of racial animus towards immigrants, in the proud tradition of Americans going back centuries now, but I didn't realize that he meant a literal physical wall.  I thought he wanted to reform our immigration policies to reduce the number of illegal immigrants coming to our country, not hire construction companies to build a thousand mile long art installation that will not reduce the number of illegal immigrants coming to our country.

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Trump is a deal maker, so let's make it work.

I wish you were right.  Trump the dealmaker has currently backed himself into a corner and looks poised to fold on everything.  Real deals, like the bipartisan criminal justice reform bill, have been few and far between and only accomplished by lots of other people working together, and then convincing Trump that it's in his personal best interest to sign off on what they've come up with.  He doesn't appear to actually care about deals, he only cares about what's good for him.  That's why he scuttled the unanimous bipartisan budget deal last week, after all.  He's certainly not personally involved in any of these deals.  Where was Trump when Congress was meeting daily to work out a budget compromise?  Throwing bombs via twitter, that's where. 

He's not a dealmaker, he's a deal destroyer.

Quote
Thank God it's not Hillimonster in there, or we would have no hope.

I'd be interested to hear what you think the world would look like right now if the electoral college reflected the popular vote.  Would we still have allies in Europe?  Would we have 17 criminal investigations into the president?  Would the Clinton foundation have been dissolved for being a fraud?  Would we  have 25 guilty pleas from top administration officials?  Would over half of the cabinet rage-quit by the halfway point of the first term?  Would the directors of every US intelligence agency and all of the previous secretaries of defense be giving press conference where they decry the president as unfit to lead?

Clinton was not a terribly exciting candidate, I'll grant, but she was at least competent and well-vetted.  She has never been convicted of fraud, unlike Trump.  She's never even been sued, much less paid out hundreds of millions of dollars in fines for breaking the law.  I posit that had she been allowed to be president, America would be in a better place today.  Her leadership, while boring, would at least be steady.  She's the American Angela Merkel.

I was doing my best to give Trump supporters the benefit of the doubt.  I have several in my immediate family, and I wanted to believe that they honestly thought he was going to do a better job.  I don't believe that anymore.  It's mostly just Hillary-hate that they use to justify their vote now.  They've given up all pretense that Trump is in any way qualified to be president.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 09:49:56 AM by sol »

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5472 on: December 23, 2018, 10:07:21 AM »
Thank God it's not Hillimonster in there, or we would have no hope.

I think we are now at the point where we have to acknowledge that anyone spewing hate at Hillary Clinton in order to make Trump look good by comparison is a willing dupe of Putin's propaganda.

dang1

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5473 on: December 23, 2018, 10:08:39 AM »
oh poop https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4955972 "Journal removes poop drawing with Donald Trump's face — but offers no explanation. Scientific Reports issues correction noting 'there were unusual aspects' to the fecal illustration"

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5474 on: December 23, 2018, 01:36:54 PM »
Thank God it's not Hillimonster in there, or we would have no hope.

I think we are now at the point where we have to acknowledge that anyone spewing hate at Hillary Clinton in order to make Trump look good by comparison is a willing dupe of Putin's propaganda.

Oh this guy is not being sarcastic? Are you sure? I mean, Hillary is a moderate with loads of experience making political deals and working across the aisle, I think this is a tongue in cheek comment

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5475 on: December 23, 2018, 01:37:58 PM »
So now Trump has booted Mattis out the door two months early because he’s mad that Mattis’s resignation letter doesn’t kiss his ass.

My favorite part of this is that Trump was too dumb to know how scathing the letter was until Fox told him so.

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5476 on: December 23, 2018, 01:43:41 PM »
It sounds like his businesses are starting to fail more rapidly than usual:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-the-trump-brand-has-lost-its-mojo-and-his-businesses-are-hurting-as/

I guess his base can't afford his hotels and resorts, and nobody else is interested.


wenchsenior

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5477 on: December 23, 2018, 02:08:18 PM »
Thank God it's not Hillimonster in there, or we would have no hope.

I think we are now at the point where we have to acknowledge that anyone spewing hate at Hillary Clinton in order to make Trump look good by comparison is a willing dupe of Putin's propaganda.

Oh this guy is not being sarcastic? Are you sure? I mean, Hillary is a moderate with loads of experience making political deals and working across the aisle, I think this is a tongue in cheek comment

Pretty sure this is not sarcastic.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5478 on: December 23, 2018, 02:16:17 PM »
Thank God it's not Hillimonster in there, or we would have no hope.

I think we are now at the point where we have to acknowledge that anyone spewing hate at Hillary Clinton in order to make Trump look good by comparison is a willing dupe of Putin's propaganda.

Oh this guy is not being sarcastic? Are you sure? I mean, Hillary is a moderate with loads of experience making political deals and working across the aisle, I think this is a tongue in cheek comment

Pretty sure this is not sarcastic.

It is a good indicator of the level of brainwashing we’re looking at, though.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5479 on: December 23, 2018, 02:21:55 PM »
Oh this guy is not being sarcastic? Are you sure?

It certainly sounds like something a parody account would say, I agree.  DreamFIRE is an interesting forum account, if you go back over the post history.  It's like watching someone become radicalized in real time.

The old posts are supportive of the ACA and decry the republican sabotage.  The new posts hate the ACA and want it dead.  Similar flip flops are documented on a variety of other topics, including Trump.  So it's possible it's all just a long con for shits and giggles, or it's possible we've watched the magic of Trump's alternative facts bend DreamFIRE's reality so significantly that a once reasonable American now sounds like a Kremlin PR desk.

Wait, can you generate side-hustle income in retirement by selling your forum account to a Russian PR firm?  I bet I could make some decent money...


Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5480 on: December 23, 2018, 02:59:22 PM »
Why did Melania and the kid go to Mara Lago without Trump? Why spend all the taxpayers money transporting her and the kid then bringing Trump down as the original plan was. Now Melania and kid are supposed to return to Washington. More wasted tax payer money. Could it possibly be that Trump wants her home because he plans to give American's the ultimate Christmas gift of his resignation? Hahaha, I know I am hallucinating, but I can dream can't I?

Just Joe

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5481 on: December 23, 2018, 04:32:52 PM »
I've mostly made peace with the reality that Donnie is the President but then occasionally I will mentally step back and ask the universe how this can be real? It seems more like bad TV.

And then my mind races down the list of the stupid stuff the GOP has said over the years about Obama and Hillary and liberals in general, and then the list of the contradictory stuff I've heard Republicans around us parrot.

Then I demand again that the universe provide us with explanations with little success. A quick look through the history books is a reminder that things like this have happened before. We will survive it. Hopefully.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5482 on: December 23, 2018, 04:58:21 PM »
I've mostly made peace with the reality that Donnie is the President but then occasionally I will mentally step back and ask the universe how this can be real? It seems more like bad TV.

And then my mind races down the list of the stupid stuff the GOP has said over the years about Obama and Hillary and liberals in general, and then the list of the contradictory stuff I've heard Republicans around us parrot.

Then I demand again that the universe provide us with explanations with little success. A quick look through the history books is a reminder that things like this have happened before. We will survive it. Hopefully.

I just finished listening to season 1 of the Slow Burn podcast, which walked through the unfolding of the Watergate scandal, and placed it in the context of the day. It was a very good reminder of the value of country over politics (though there was obviously plenty of partisanship), and how the country seems to change its mind on these types of things. Nixon had a lot of support even after sordid details were coming out. Many of the Nixon base simply did not care and really liked having a strong alpha person in the Oval Office (sound familiar?). The difference is that, despite his shortcomings, Nixon was actually getting a fair amount done on the world stage (nuclear arms treaties with Russia, opening China after meetings with Mao, etc), and domestically (EPA came into being under Nixon). Nixon did not lose those supporters until he literally had the FBI going in and physically closing the offices of special prosecutor Archibald Cox. If Nixon is indeed a road map, we have a ways to go before the base turns. Apparently, a significant portion of the US populace is not good at spotting obvious scoundrels even when it is plainly obvious and well documented... or they just don't care about the rule of law and government institutions when it comes down to it. Citizens are ironically the flaw in democracy.

raindrops

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5483 on: December 23, 2018, 05:23:00 PM »
"I predict after 8 years, the Canadians will build a wall and ask us to pay for it." Funniest thing I read for the day.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5484 on: December 23, 2018, 05:28:44 PM »
"I predict after 8 years, the Canadians will build a wall and ask us to pay for it." Funniest thing I read for the day.

That has been around for a while now. Which one did you see?

aspiringnomad

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5485 on: December 24, 2018, 12:20:33 AM »
I've mostly made peace with the reality that Donnie is the President but then occasionally I will mentally step back and ask the universe how this can be real? It seems more like bad TV.

And then my mind races down the list of the stupid stuff the GOP has said over the years about Obama and Hillary and liberals in general, and then the list of the contradictory stuff I've heard Republicans around us parrot.

Then I demand again that the universe provide us with explanations with little success. A quick look through the history books is a reminder that things like this have happened before. We will survive it. Hopefully.

This sums up my mindset about as well as anything I’ve seen.

Zola.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5486 on: December 24, 2018, 01:08:54 AM »
its about time this chump Trump was removed from office.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5487 on: December 24, 2018, 06:03:09 AM »
There should be some rules in place to even be in the running for President. Some rules could be:

Military experience where the candidate is or was a General.

Political science degree plus served in Congress for at least 10 years.

Political science degree plus Governor of a State for 8 years.

The person would have to rise from the government trenches, learn from senior members then advance upwards as they deserve it.

Perhaps testing of some sort too. Like psychiatric, knowledge of foreign powers, knowledge and reasoning behind laws passed by previous administrations. Written tests? This is one of the most important jobs in the world which you would think would require serious vetting. Not just allowing a game show wanna be, with a big mouth, to be a Presidential candidate.

Unlike what we have now a big ignorant blabber mouth that spews childish rants against individuals and groups. His mission is to undo what Obama accomplished. He gets his 'base' to chant stupid stuff like Mexico will pay for the wall and all his other lies. Why is he not held accountable for the garbage that comes out of his mouth. He is in love with dictators, can't make a decision till Fox and Friends gives him his marching orders each day. He won't listen to seasoned Generals and others who could help guide him and make him look like a hero instead of a zero.

We need to make new rules to separate the hucksters from those who deserve to lead our country and our people. This too will pass...

FIPurpose

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5488 on: December 24, 2018, 06:37:25 AM »
There should be some rules in place to even be in the running for President. Some rules could be:

Military experience where the candidate is or was a General.

Political science degree plus served in Congress for at least 10 years.

Political science degree plus Governor of a State for 8 years.

The person would have to rise from the government trenches, learn from senior members then advance upwards as they deserve it.

Perhaps testing of some sort too. Like psychiatric, knowledge of foreign powers, knowledge and reasoning behind laws passed by previous administrations. Written tests? This is one of the most important jobs in the world which you would think would require serious vetting. Not just allowing a game show wanna be, with a big mouth, to be a Presidential candidate.

Unlike what we have now a big ignorant blabber mouth that spews childish rants against individuals and groups. His mission is to undo what Obama accomplished. He gets his 'base' to chant stupid stuff like Mexico will pay for the wall and all his other lies. Why is he not held accountable for the garbage that comes out of his mouth. He is in love with dictators, can't make a decision till Fox and Friends gives him his marching orders each day. He won't listen to seasoned Generals and others who could help guide him and make him look like a hero instead of a zero.

We need to make new rules to separate the hucksters from those who deserve to lead our country and our people. This too will pass...

That was the decision of the last election right? Someone with no political experience or knowledge vs a person with a Law degree, exclusively shadowed a president for 8 years, Senator for 9 years, Secretary of State for 4 years.

As far as I know, there has never been a president without some military, law, or political experience that made it. Herbert Hoover is probably the closest. It looks like he was secretary of commerce for a short while and that was about it. But then again, it's pretty plain that snake oil salesmen don't really make for good leaders.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5489 on: December 24, 2018, 06:52:22 AM »
Quote
There should be some rules in place to even be in the running for President.

A decade or two ago we slowly slid into this period where having an experience was seen as a hinderance rather than a requirement. DJT is the extreme result of that (i.e. no political, military, public service experience whatsoever). I’ve been discussing it with my friends as to how this came to pass...
Science/Scientists seem to have been deliberately targeted - led by a charge against environmental regulations and climate change. A bunch of large, wealthy corporations saw regulations as a huge drag on their profit-making abilities, so rather than debate the economic costs they attacked the underlying science and the individuals who did it.  Get people to be skeptics and label the scientific consensus as ‘alarmist’ and ‘biased’ and you’ve won before anyone’s been able to really discuss the issue.
The professional attacks have been just as bad on our leaders.  HRC is a great example from one side of the aisle - rather than make the case for how her policies would be detrimental to the country, her opponents instead found it far easier and more effective to make her experience a reason to hate her (too old, present when ‘bad stuff’ happened, too connected)

The internet and YouTube certainly helped furthered this recent cult of “reject all expert opinions”. With WebMD everyone became a doctor better equiped to self-diagnose our ailments than our actual physicians. Congress helped by allowing prescription meds to be advertised on TV (“...you might have rickets! Talk to your doctor about taking BigPharmaPill© Start living your life like these perfect beautiful people int his commercial!”). Random stories about how this person refused to listen to his/her doctor telling her she was in good health and diagnosed her disease just in time go viral, and only further the narrative of ‘Don’t Trust an Expert!’
YouTube has allowed everyone to do rough carpentry, change their oil or install a sink, but now too many see themselves as master carpenters, auto mechanics and plumbers with only a few hours of dinking on relatively simple problems. Reality TV shows made us think that any amateur home baker (hey, I’m a home baker!) can whip our 48 identical whelsh tarts in 90 minutes that are any the judges have ever tasted.

I, too, believe that ‘this too shall pass’. Like a bad hangover, many are blearily looking around and realizing that maybe the scientists really weren’t being alarmist, maybe a few hours on the internet is no substitute for years of education and decades of experience, and maybe having leaders with actual experience knowledge in their respective departments may be preferable than the opposite which comes in with ‘fresh eyes’ and ‘isn’t bogged down with preconceived notions’ but ultimately fails because they have no idea what the f is going on.. I could be naively optimistic, but hopefully we’re moving back towards an era where - at a minimum - the kind of experience which Roadrunner53 suggested, and which almost every single other President had, will become the de facto requirement for being a major party’s nominee.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5490 on: December 24, 2018, 08:24:31 AM »
There should be some rules in place to even be in the running for President.

How about the Republican and Democratic parties require any candidate in their primaries to first pass an FBI security check?

If that had been in place in 2016 Trump would have failed at the first hurdle.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5491 on: December 24, 2018, 08:42:24 AM »
There are different levels of FBI checks. One is akin to fact checking someone's resume. Unless there is a reason, they don't dig (look at tax returns, interview people, etc).

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5492 on: December 24, 2018, 08:51:19 AM »
The Fed has always had a political storm around it, but its independence is part of what makes it work. It is a fundamentally wonkish institution. Trump appears to be on track to up the ante on politicizing it by shifting blame for the recent stock market losses (which do not really seem panic inducing to begin with given the preceding trends) on current Fed Chairman Powell. Ugh. Also, the buck never stops with him.

He's always called Teflon Don. Unfortunately, it turns out teflon (and other fluorocarbon products) are pretty damn toxic.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5493 on: December 24, 2018, 09:42:17 AM »

He's always called Teflon Don. Unfortunately, it turns out teflon (and other fluorocarbon products) are pretty damn toxic.

The original ‘Teflon Don’ was a bona fide mobster, Jon Gotti of the Gambino crime family, who like Trump was from Queens.

When people started referring to Donald Trump as ‘Teflon Don’ it was as a mocking insult - that he was trying to be this great mobster boss by buying up casinos and doing his best to imitate their bravado and syntax, but in reality he was just a wealthy kid from Queens who kept going bankrupt and was thought to be beholden to (not in control of) the big crime familes of NY.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5494 on: December 24, 2018, 10:06:15 AM »
its about time this chump Trump was removed from office.

I'm sure there are 400,000 government employees that agree with you.  The funny thing is, builders that got stiffed by Trump in the past are like, 'how could you not see Trump making you work for no pay' coming?  This is his signature move.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5495 on: December 24, 2018, 10:19:40 AM »
So, apparently Trump did not even bother to read the Mattis resignation letter, and only became incensed after fox news told him to be so.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/23/us/politics/trump-mattis.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

From the article:
Quote
WASHINGTON — Less than two hours after Defense Secretary Jim Mattis went to the White House on Thursday to hand a resignation letter to President Trump, the president stood in the Oval Office and dictated a glowing tweet announcing that Mr. Mattis was retiring “with distinction” at the end of February.

But Mr. Trump had not read the letter. As became apparent to the president only after days of news coverage, a senior administration official said, Mr. Mattis had issued a stinging rebuke of Mr. Trump over his neglect of allies and tolerance of authoritarians. The president grew increasingly angry as he watched a parade of defense analysts go on television to extol Mr. Mattis’s bravery, another aide said, until he decided on Sunday that he had had enough.


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sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5498 on: December 24, 2018, 01:08:35 PM »
So, apparently Trump did not even bother to read the Mattis resignation letter, and only became incensed after fox news told him to be so.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/23/us/politics/trump-mattis.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Not surprising at all. I mean can he even read? Only reason he watch Fox News is because the news is being read to him.

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