Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 586212 times)

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5350 on: December 16, 2018, 12:21:17 PM »
If you didn't watch SNL last night it might be fun to watch Alex Baldwin and the crew (On Demand) do a take on It's a Wonderful Life. They talk about what it would be like if Trump were never President.

Evidently, Trump watched it and is disgruntled! LOL! I bet he went on a tirade kicking holes in the walls of the White House:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-saturday-night-live-tweet_us_5c165bbde4b05d7e5d82ef67

I would love to see the President of the United States attempt to sue a sketch comedy show.  He's threatening legal action already, but to actually see him go through with it would just be the cherry on top of a lifelong career of petty insecurity. 

Go ahead Donnie, attack the first Amendment in federal court.  I dare you.  You really know how to pick winning issues.

I would like to have a tiny peephole and be able to see Trump watch SNL and his reaction to it. It has to be the show of shows! OMG! I would laugh so hard I would need an oxygen tank to revive myself!

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5351 on: December 16, 2018, 12:32:16 PM »
If you didn't watch SNL last night it might be fun to watch Alex Baldwin and the crew (On Demand) do a take on It's a Wonderful Life. They talk about what it would be like if Trump were never President.

Evidently, Trump watched it and is disgruntled! LOL! I bet he went on a tirade kicking holes in the walls of the White House:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-saturday-night-live-tweet_us_5c165bbde4b05d7e5d82ef67

I would love to see the President of the United States attempt to sue a sketch comedy show.  He's threatening legal action already, but to actually see him go through with it would just be the cherry on top of a lifelong career of petty insecurity. 

Go ahead Donnie, attack the first Amendment in federal court.  I dare you.  You really know how to pick winning issues.

I wouldn't put it past him. He challenged freedom of the press recently and lost bigly.

sequoia

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5352 on: December 17, 2018, 02:14:22 AM »
If you didn't watch SNL last night it might be fun to watch Alex Baldwin and the crew (On Demand) do a take on It's a Wonderful Life. They talk about what it would be like if Trump were never President.

Evidently, Trump watched it and is disgruntled! LOL! I bet he went on a tirade kicking holes in the walls of the White House:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-saturday-night-live-tweet_us_5c165bbde4b05d7e5d82ef67

I would love to see the President of the United States attempt to sue a sketch comedy show.  He's threatening legal action already, but to actually see him go through with it would just be the cherry on top of a lifelong career of petty insecurity. 

Go ahead Donnie, attack the first Amendment in federal court.  I dare you.  You really know how to pick winning issues.

I would like to have a tiny peephole and be able to see Trump watch SNL and his reaction to it. It has to be the show of shows! OMG! I would laugh so hard I would need an oxygen tank to revive myself!

Me personally would love to see his reaction when he watch Fox News or any news coverage that adores him. Does he fist pump and scream "See they all love me!"? Does his head gets a bit bigger? So many questions...

It would be fascinating to have hidden cameras installed inside the white house. Too bad Amarosa got fired too soon. Imagine what kind of recording she has if she works for 4 years.

Louisville

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5353 on: December 17, 2018, 06:32:49 AM »

I don't think Trump spends any time with Pence except when he's using him as a man-prop during some TV op (and even then Pence often looks deeply uncomfortable, like during the Trump/Pelosi/Schumer meeting last week)

Pence was forced to sit for a social call with a woman without Mother around...

There was a woman in the room...oh my!

Seriously?  How would he ever function as President?  The PM of the UK and the Chancellor of Germany are both women.  Plus state visits, the Governor General of Canada is a woman.

It bugs the crap out of me when people point to Pence's refusal to be alone in a room with a woman as [positive] aspects of his 'integrity' and 'character'. 
How could excluding women and treating them like vile temptresses only approprately handled in public possibly be construed as a good thing in this century?

Wait, what?!? Has Pence actually said that he won't be alone in a room with a woman? Can anyone provide back up on this? And not from ridiculous Huffington Post, please.
Okay, googled it. All I can find is he said/she said, third hand accounts, although from reputable sources. No direct quotes from Mike or Karen Pence. I'm guessing it's not as simple as "won't be alone in a room with a woman". Don't get me wrong, I see Commander Pence taking us straight to Gilead, but I prefer facts to innuendo.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 06:42:39 AM by Louisville »

Dabnasty

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5354 on: December 17, 2018, 06:38:41 AM »

I don't think Trump spends any time with Pence except when he's using him as a man-prop during some TV op (and even then Pence often looks deeply uncomfortable, like during the Trump/Pelosi/Schumer meeting last week)

Pence was forced to sit for a social call with a woman without Mother around...

There was a woman in the room...oh my!

Seriously?  How would he ever function as President?  The PM of the UK and the Chancellor of Germany are both women.  Plus state visits, the Governor General of Canada is a woman.

It bugs the crap out of me when people point to Pence's refusal to be alone in a room with a woman as [positive] aspects of his 'integrity' and 'character'. 
How could excluding women and treating them like vile temptresses only approprately handled in public possibly be construed as a good thing in this century?

Wait, what?!? Has Pence actually said that he won't be alone in a room with a woman? Can anyone provide back up on this? And not from ridiculous Huffington Post, please.

I think his rule is that he can't have dinner alone with a woman other than his wife.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/why-it-matters-that-pence-wont-have-dinner-with-a-woman-who-isnt-his-wife_us_58dd1740e4b05eae031d949c

jk :)

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/03/pences-gender-segregated-dinners/521286/

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5355 on: December 17, 2018, 06:41:46 AM »
I think a president Pence would be pretty damn scary. He had very extreme views on things that would negatively impact many many people. Unlike his boss he appears level-headed and competent, so I expect he would be able to get more of his agenda through than the current situation.

The question that hasn't been answered?

Why Pence?

Manafort (now in jail) picked him. Why?

Pence was on his way down...something is strange about the selection by Manafort.

I think it was as simple as Trump (a thrice-married serial adulterer who's never been a regular parishioner and former Casino owner) needing Pence to lock down the evangelical vote.  I don't think it was any more than that.  Sometimes it really is that obvious.

A better question is whether Pence has been witness to any illegal dealings since joining the ticket.  Given how many times he's been sent out to parrot one message only to be undercut by Trump the same day, it wouldn't surprise me to learn he's been in the dark about everything. I don't think Trump spends any time with Pence except when he's using him as a man-prop during some TV op (and even then Pence often looks deeply uncomfortable, like during the Trump/Pelosi/Schumer meeting last week)

Pence was in charge of the transition and he has lied repeatedly that he did not know about Flynn's lobbying issues despite the letter from Elijah Cummings to him in November 2016. I find it hard to believe Pence escapes, looking at the difference in status between Rick Gates and Manafort, I would hope Rick Gates is telling everything he knows on the campaign, transition and inauguration. 

Rudy spilled the beans Sunday that Trump's financials are being looked at as far back as 1982, 1983, kinda coincidental that Trump Tower was finished in 1983 and over the years he has sold many units to Russians, Saudis, etc through shell companies.  I would not be surprised if financial crimes are the ones that the whole family goes down for.   

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5356 on: December 17, 2018, 07:20:41 AM »
I can't wait till the crowds start chanting 'lock her up' for Trumps evil daughter Ivanka with all her shenanigans with the inauguration.

Those shenanigans apparently involve funneling inauguration funds into her own pocket by serving as both an inauguration organizer and as the representative for the hotel that hosted the inauguration events.  She negotiated a deal with herself to pay herself, using inauguration funds.  It's a pretty egregious example of double-dealing for personal profit.  I doubt that it's a crime worthy of prison time, but it should definitely get her and the Trump Organization a hefty fine.  The whole family has used the presidency as an opportunity to enrich themselves by defrauding the country at every turn.

Not that it matters.  I fully expect Donald Trump to issue his entire family and all of his campaign staff blanket pardons upon leaving office.  If a democrat wins in 2020, that will be ten minutes before his term officially ends just so they can have time to get Pence sworn in as President long enough to sign a pardon for Trump himself.  Pence will get to say he was POTUS, even if only for 10 minutes, and will go down in history as the 46th President.  Yay America!

Your theory on Trump resigning at the 12th hour and appointing Pence as a 10 minute President to pardon him, his family and cronies is brilliant! I can see that happening. Please don't give Trump any ideas! He has enough twisted ideas of his own.

If you consider what outgoing GOP Governors and Legislatures have done in North Carolina (2016), and Wisconsin and Michigan (going on literally right now), this all being done for pardons is probably not even a worst case scenario.

Just Joe

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5357 on: December 17, 2018, 02:36:38 PM »
I wonder if Pence can wiggle (lie) his way out of trouble as good as Trump. I can imagine that IF they do get Trump he might wiggle free somehow and leave Pence and everyone else to face the lawyers. 

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5358 on: December 17, 2018, 02:47:50 PM »
I wonder if Pence can wiggle (lie) his way out of trouble as good as Trump. I can imagine that IF they do get Trump he might wiggle free somehow and leave Pence and everyone else to face the lawyers.

I think Pence is going down too.  He was in charge of the transition team, which is also being investigated for criminal activity. 

There is enough wrongdoing here to go around.  The only way either of them avoids needing a pardon is if they claim total and complete incompetence, like "I'm a doddering old fool and had no idea that everyone around me was conducting criminal acts in my name."  Trump can't stand for that, but Pence might try it.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 06:06:09 PM by sol »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5359 on: December 17, 2018, 02:49:27 PM »
I wonder if Pence can wiggle (lie) his way out of trouble as good as Trump. I can imagine that IF they do get Trump he might wiggle free somehow and leave Pence and everyone else to face the lawyers.

I think Pence is going down too.  He was in charge of the transition team, which is also being investigated for criminal activity. 

There is enough wrongdoing here to around.  The only way either of them avoids needing a pardon is if they claim total and complete incompetence, like "I'm a doddering old fool and had no idea that everyone around me was conducting criminal acts in my name."  Trump can't stand for that, but Pence might try it.
Well, I guess it is good for Pence that at least in prison he won't have to worry about being alone in a room with a woman who is not his wife. /s

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5360 on: December 17, 2018, 04:20:10 PM »
Giuliani is either way overpaid or secretly working for Mueller.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5361 on: December 17, 2018, 04:38:08 PM »
Giuliani is either way overpaid or secretly working for Mueller.

I love how his most recent defense of the President "Yep, Trump lies all the time.  So what?  Lying isn't itself a crime if he's not under oath, and I will never let him testify under oath."

How fucked up is it that the leader of the free world has a lawyer who's best argument is "my client absolutely cannot be trusted under any circumstances."
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 05:03:38 PM by sol »

Kyle Schuant

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5362 on: December 17, 2018, 05:46:15 PM »
I am enjoying the naivete of people thinking any elite will go to prison for their crimes. Especially hilarious is the assertion they'd go to prison for financial crimes. Have you guys not noticed the last fifty years of Western history?

Now, resigning after a scandal is one thing. But prison? lolz

Little Aussie Battler

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5363 on: December 17, 2018, 06:18:31 PM »
You have heard of Bernie Madoff, right?

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5364 on: December 17, 2018, 06:23:49 PM »
I am enjoying the naivete of people thinking any elite will go to prison for their crimes. Especially hilarious is the assertion they'd go to prison for financial crimes. Have you guys not noticed the last fifty years of Western history?

Now, resigning after a scandal is one thing. But prison? lolz

I think if a few thousand people do things, then it gets a pass (see 2008 financial crisis or Wells Fargo as of late). If a small enough group of people do things, then there is potential for personal repercussions beyond a golden parachute.

What happens if Mueller's report comes back and says that there were a bunch of gullible idiots around Trump, but that the Trump family-circle was clean in this specific case?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5365 on: December 17, 2018, 06:42:07 PM »
I am enjoying the naivete of people thinking any elite will go to prison for their crimes. Especially hilarious is the assertion they'd go to prison for financial crimes. Have you guys not noticed the last fifty years of Western history?

Now, resigning after a scandal is one thing. But prison? lolz

Maybe Australia is different, but there's a long list of elite, wealther and/or powerful (political) people going to prison for financial crimes.  Little Aussie Battler mentioned Bernie, but Cohen is going away fro 3.5 years.  Earlier this decade we've had Martha Stewart, Skilling (Enron), Jessie Jackson and roughly a dozen other US legislatures.  At times it seems a conviction for financial fraud (and subsequent prison) is the only way to get reps from 'safe' seats to go . Bob Menendez is awauting trial.  Capone was famously jailed for tax fraud, not any of the murders and extortion he carried out.

Sending our rich and powerful to prison for financial crimes is about as American as gun ownership.

RetiredAt63

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5366 on: December 17, 2018, 07:21:48 PM »
I am enjoying the naivete of people thinking any elite will go to prison for their crimes. Especially hilarious is the assertion they'd go to prison for financial crimes. Have you guys not noticed the last fifty years of Western history?

Now, resigning after a scandal is one thing. But prison? lolz

Maybe Australia is different, but there's a long list of elite, wealther and/or powerful (political) people going to prison for financial crimes.  Little Aussie Battler mentioned Bernie, but Cohen is going away fro 3.5 years.  Earlier this decade we've had Martha Stewart, Skilling (Enron), Jessie Jackson and roughly a dozen other US legislatures.  At times it seems a conviction for financial fraud (and subsequent prison) is the only way to get reps from 'safe' seats to go . Bob Menendez is awauting trial.  Capone was famously jailed for tax fraud, not any of the murders and extortion he carried out.

Sending our rich and powerful to prison for financial crimes is about as American as gun ownership.

After all, they got Al Capone for tax evasion.  So there is precedent.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5367 on: December 17, 2018, 08:44:34 PM »
What bothers me is that Trump and his ilk are like thinkers from the 1940's.

Gotta revive coal mines?

Does not believe in climate change. Protecting the environment does not matter.

Can grope and pay off women and there should be no consequences?

Can cheat, lie and deceive while pretending to be goody two shoes.

Bill Cosby, a person from that era also thought he was above the law and could do what he wanted. Look where that finally got him.

Look at all the cronies Trump surrounds himself with. Old geezers, like minded, with no morals.

Is that what Trump calls emptying the swamp? LOL, he  has added to it.

Half of his appointed officials have broken laws and laughed in the face of the taxpayers, then have been kicked to the curb.

The few that are young, Steve Miller comes to mind, are evil to the bone.

How will we ever turn this White House around? Why is politics so evil?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 05:49:15 AM by Roadrunner53 »

Poundwise

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5368 on: December 17, 2018, 09:22:50 PM »
@Roadrunner53 Do not despair.  It was all like this at one time, and worse. But it got better, and will get better again... if the people who care about the good of humankind continue to step forward and do their civic duty. That sounds a little Girl-Scoutish, but it's the way that progress happens.

On the subject of tax evasion, "Mueller Probe Cost $25 Million So Far, Report Says. It’s Pulled in $48 Million From Tax Cheats"
http://fortune.com/2018/12/14/mueller-investigation-cost-tax-cheats/

Unique User

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5369 on: December 18, 2018, 09:24:22 AM »
I am enjoying the naivete of people thinking any elite will go to prison for their crimes. Especially hilarious is the assertion they'd go to prison for financial crimes. Have you guys not noticed the last fifty years of Western history?

Now, resigning after a scandal is one thing. But prison? lolz

Others have listed some of the many individuals to go to prison for white collar crimes, but also Charles Kushner went to federal prison for two years after pleading guilty to 18 counts of tax evasion, witness tampering and making illegal campaign donations.  Considering the multiple allegations against Jared, I'd be surprised at this point if he doesn't do time.  He'll probably really regret that puff Forbes piece in December 2016 that called him a boy wonder for running Trump's digital operation knowing what we know now. 

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5370 on: December 18, 2018, 09:27:20 AM »
In today's news, the Trump foundation is being dissolved under court order as partial restitution for criminal acts:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/18/politics/trump-foundation-dissolve/index.html

As part of the settlement, Trump and his children will be forbidden from serving on the boards of any other nonprofits.  Not from running the country, though.

Everything Trump has touched in the past decade is under criminal investigation, including the Trump Foundation, the inauguration, the transition, the administration, and all of the various businesses under the umbrella of "the Trump organization" which, as it turns out, apparently includes the foundation, inauguration, transition, and administration.  He has used them all as personal profit sources, even the ones with non-profit status.  He is a walking ethical malpractice case.

Trump University was already sued out of existence for fraud.  Now the Trump foundation has been sued out of existence for fraud.  Is anyone else seeing a pattern of behavior here?  Is it maybe possible that Donald Trump has always been a con man, and has spent decades using these various organizations as tools to enrich himself with little to no regard for legality?

In sol's fantasy world, the Trump family's misdeed spark a resurgence in white collar crime prosecutions.  People they employed, like Cohen and Manafort, have spent decades avoiding prosecution while obviously skirting the law, and they're both going to prison.  I would love to see America wake up and start holding our most successful criminals accountable for their crimes.

edit:  in typical Trump fashion, he's scrambling to make ANY other news to overshadow his most recent defeat.  Have to command the news cycle at all costs!  I suspect that within an hour every news outlet will be covering today's announcement of the Space Command, or his decision to allow the banning of bump stocks, or something else.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 09:34:19 AM by sol »

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5371 on: December 18, 2018, 09:42:37 AM »
In today's news, the Trump foundation is being dissolved under court order as partial restitution for criminal acts:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/18/politics/trump-foundation-dissolve/index.html


This feels like you are desperately trying to get out in front of the story. It's been pretty obvious since a series of investigative reporting during DJT's campaign that the Trump Foundation was not a charitable foundation, and SDNY has been after it ever since. But to dissolve it now... the timing makes me think there's more evidence of fraud about to come out. Maybe most of the foundation's funds came from Russians (plus Linda McMahon, who's still somehow serving in Trump's cabinet despite what appears straightforward bribery.  I guess when you've got scandal-plagued Zinke and Pruitt sucking up all the limelight pay-to-play McMahon basically slips through the cracks for a while).

...Expect the Trump legal team to now use the defense that "the Trump Organization no longer exists, so there's nothing to prosecute, and focusing on a foundation that no longer exists is just a waste of the President's time and the tax payer's money".  yeah, like if I run over a bunch of people with my car but then sell it fast, I can't be charged with vehicular manslaughter.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5372 on: December 18, 2018, 09:54:13 AM »
In today's news, the Trump foundation is being dissolved under court order as partial restitution for criminal acts:  https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/18/politics/trump-foundation-dissolve/index.html

As part of the settlement, Trump and his children will be forbidden from serving on the boards of any other nonprofits.  Not from running the country, though.

Everything Trump has touched in the past decade is under criminal investigation, including the Trump Foundation, the inauguration, the transition, the administration, and all of the various businesses under the umbrella of "the Trump organization" which, as it turns out, apparently includes the foundation, inauguration, transition, and administration.  He has used them all as personal profit sources, even the ones with non-profit status.  He is a walking ethical malpractice case.

Trump University was already sued out of existence for fraud.  Now the Trump foundation has been sued out of existence for fraud.  Is anyone else seeing a pattern of behavior here?  Is it maybe possible that Donald Trump has always been a con man, and has spent decades using these various organizations as tools to enrich himself with little to no regard for legality?

In sol's fantasy world, the Trump family's misdeed spark a resurgence in white collar crime prosecutions.  People they employed, like Cohen and Manafort, have spent decades avoiding prosecution while obviously skirting the law, and they're both going to prison.  I would love to see America wake up and start holding our most successful criminals accountable for their crimes.

edit:  in typical Trump fashion, he's scrambling to make ANY other news to overshadow his most recent defeat.  Have to command the news cycle at all costs!  I suspect that within an hour every news outlet will be covering today's announcement of the Space Command, or his decision to allow the banning of bump stocks, or something else.

But what next? Will we start treating cocaine (white collar version) and crack (poor person version) the same in the judicial system? Where would the madness stop?

In all seriousness though, I do share Sol's dream of white collar prosecutions. Stealing from someone by fraudulently setting up bank accounts (ahem, Wells Fargo) is no different than stealing from someone's cash register, or directly from their home. Actually, there is a difference. The white collar version requires a different sort of intent, and is much less likely to result in the criminal having to look the victim in the eye.

For a small glimmer of joy, this article is pretty satisfying:
http://business.time.com/2011/06/06/homeowner-forecloses-on-bank-of-america-yes-you-heard-that-right/

I would love to have the opportunity to buy that couple a beer.


MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5373 on: December 18, 2018, 10:16:10 AM »
I think it's easy to gauge the days news by Trump's tweet storms. Today was spectacularly awful.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5374 on: December 18, 2018, 10:44:55 AM »
I think it's easy to gauge the days news by Trump's tweet storms. Today was spectacularly awful.
care to give a synopsis for those of us who don't want to wade through that drivel on our own?

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5375 on: December 18, 2018, 11:01:52 AM »
I think it's easy to gauge the days news by Trump's tweet storms. Today was spectacularly awful.
care to give a synopsis for those of us who don't want to wade through that drivel on our own?

I just happened to catch a glimpse of it on Yahoo this morning while checking email. Looks like it's not front page anymore. There were a string of usual Tweets about crooked Hillary, Dems, witch hunt, Flynn, etc. It just kind of rambled on.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5376 on: December 18, 2018, 11:59:20 AM »
Flynn's sentencing delayed in order to "continue cooperating with the Special Counsel's investigations". If you weren't following this closely in the last week or 2, Mueller detailed three investigations that Flynn's cooperation helped with, some redacted, and both the prosecution and defenses recommendations to the judge were for essentially no prison time. However, in a little bit of a fuck you to prosecutors, Flynn's attorneys intimated that Flynn's testimony to the FBI may have been 'coercive'. This caused a slight change to the prosecutions recommendations to leave open prison time at the lower end of guidelines.

Now apparently Flynn would like to cooperate some more. So he/his attorneys appeared to have really screwed up, he was almost on his way to being done with this, likely with no prison. But then the no prison part got thrown in to doubt, at least partly by the actions of his own attorneys and also probably partly by the attitude of the judge, and they asked for a delay to provide additional cooperation. My only question is, is Flynn trying to pull a Manafort and pretend to continuing cooperating in order to provide Trump with backchannel intelligence on what the Special Counsel is up to.

PathtoFIRE

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5377 on: December 18, 2018, 12:06:56 PM »
"All along, you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country while serving as the National Security Advisor to the President of the United States. That undermines everything this flag over here stands for. Arguably you sold your country out." Judge Sullivan to Michael Flynn.

Frankly, the judge could have also been saying similar words to Trump, Trump Jr., Ivanka, Kushner, Manafort, Papadopoulos, Stone, Bannon, etc. Where are the posters on this thread who were previously defending this criminal cabal earlier this year when frankly many of the facts "reported" recently in all of these filings, indictments, pleas, etc. were already known? I don't expect to see much in the way of mea culpas, but it'd still be nice to see if anything has finally sunk in.

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sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5379 on: December 18, 2018, 12:23:56 PM »
Anyone think there is any truth to this? I hope so!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chris-matthews-trump-breaking-point_us_5c186079e4b0432554c37eaf

I think it's a manic liberal fever dream.  No fucking way.

Their argument is that Trump will resign the office in exchange for avoiding criminal charges, the way Agnew did, in an effort to "leverage the office while you still have it."  I think there is approximately zero percent chance that Trump chooses that path.

Trump will try to leverage the office all right, but not by resigning.  I think he'd rather try pardoning himself, or declare martial law and try to use the military to disband the justice department.  He could sign an executive order declaring collusion to be explicitly legal, and then go on Fox news and tell his followers he had to collude with Russia, like a patriot, to save America from crooked Hillary and the deep state.  He could find some redneck local sheriff to arrest Bob Mueller for treason and then have him "accidentally" die in custody.  He has a ton of options for using the power of his office to preserve the power of his office.  He holds all the cards right now, and unless congress steps up he's basically untouchable.  He'll walk away from all of this, no matter how bad it gets, unless congress says otherwise. 

PathtoFIRE

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5380 on: December 18, 2018, 12:25:47 PM »
No, I don't have much hope that this speculation will hold. I think DJT thinks he's incredibly popular, and I think that he and his inner circle believe the path of success for him is to get reelected in 2020. Will he throw his own children under the bus? Maybe, but I'm just not sure there is any evidence to convince me that DJT will actually listen to anyone advising him to resign. And I think he's right, I think he's still got a chance of keeping his power, wealth, and maintaining his facade if he can hold on until 2020 and get reelected. I know there are some reports that in private Trump can be charming and humble and contemplative, so I think Christ Matthews may indeed be right.

For me personally, it would feel like an injustice for the remaining Trump-associated criminals to walk away from their numerous crimes. But if both Trump and Pence agreed to resign together and we could clear the executive branch of all of the remaining conspirators and facilitators, then I think it might just be worth it.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5381 on: December 18, 2018, 12:50:32 PM »
...
Now apparently Flynn would like to cooperate some more. So he/his attorneys appeared to have really screwed up, he was almost on his way to being done with this, likely with no prison. But then the no prison part got thrown in to doubt, at least partly by the actions of his own attorneys and also probably partly by the attitude of the judge, and they asked for a delay to provide additional cooperation.
...

I dunno.  Everyone around here is happily talking about how Rush Limbaugh laid a clear path as to how Flynn is sacrificing himself for the greater good, because in order to actually prosecute him the FBI would have to reveal all of its dirt on Obama.  They don't want to do that, so this delay is just a way for the FBI to figure out how to keep from showing its true colors.

I haven't verified the actual Limbaugh story (and I won't), so take it for the second-hand "news" that it is.  But just to show you that no, literally nothing will change some peoples mind. 

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5382 on: December 18, 2018, 01:02:18 PM »
...
Now apparently Flynn would like to cooperate some more. So he/his attorneys appeared to have really screwed up, he was almost on his way to being done with this, likely with no prison. But then the no prison part got thrown in to doubt, at least partly by the actions of his own attorneys and also probably partly by the attitude of the judge, and they asked for a delay to provide additional cooperation.
...

I dunno.  Everyone around here is happily talking about how Rush Limbaugh laid a clear path as to how Flynn is sacrificing himself for the greater good, because in order to actually prosecute him the FBI would have to reveal all of its dirt on Obama.  They don't want to do that, so this delay is just a way for the FBI to figure out how to keep from showing its true colors.

I haven't verified the actual Limbaugh story (and I won't), so take it for the second-hand "news" that it is.  But just to show you that no, literally nothing will change some peoples mind.
15% of Americans think that Nixon knew nothing about Watergate and never lied.  Thousands (if not tens-of-thousands) believe the world is flat. About 9% completely reject the idea that the climate is changing (regardless of the cause or strength).  At least someone believes Kim Kardashian is the greatest actress ever. Logic or the preponderance of evidence will not sway these individuals.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5383 on: December 18, 2018, 01:23:37 PM »
Anyone think there is any truth to this? I hope so!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chris-matthews-trump-breaking-point_us_5c186079e4b0432554c37eaf


Mueller seems to be a completely straight arrow, who has essentially tried to leave the traitorous Michael Flynn off the hook (he could have tried him for offences carrying 15 years in prison).  Mueller would only do that if he thought it would lead to someone higher up getting what is due to them - ie prison time, and a lot of it.


The only way Trump isn't going to prison is if Mueller thinks that he is such a danger to the USA for as long as he is President that he is willing to do a deal to get Trump out of office more or less immediately.  But Mueller has already been investigating for 18 months, so what would he have found recently that would cause him to move to wanting Trump out immediately?

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5384 on: December 18, 2018, 03:29:09 PM »
Anyone think there is any truth to this? I hope so!

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/chris-matthews-trump-breaking-point_us_5c186079e4b0432554c37eaf


Mueller seems to be a completely straight arrow, who has essentially tried to leave the traitorous Michael Flynn off the hook (he could have tried him for offences carrying 15 years in prison).  Mueller would only do that if he thought it would lead to someone higher up getting what is due to them - ie prison time, and a lot of it.


The only way Trump isn't going to prison is if Mueller thinks that he is such a danger to the USA for as long as he is President that he is willing to do a deal to get Trump out of office more or less immediately.  But Mueller has already been investigating for 18 months, so what would he have found recently that would cause him to move to wanting Trump out immediately?

"wanting trump out immediately" doesn't matter.

There are only three ways to get rid of a sitting president who doesn't want to go before the next election:
1) Impeachment and removal by the Senate, this takes a majority of the House and 67 Senators to do
2) A majority of the Cabinet and the Vice president want to remove the President AND 2/3s of each house of Congress
3) He dies

The most likely of the 3 is 3), and that's not very likely.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5385 on: December 18, 2018, 03:37:44 PM »
There are only three ways to get rid of a sitting president who doesn't want to go before the next election:

I think they're arguing for a fourth option, the one Spirow T. Agnew chose.  Which is: to commit so many federal crimes that you face a lengthy prison sentence, and then cut a deal with the prosecutor that includes voluntarily resigning before the end of your term in exchange for immunity for all past transgressions.  It's like a get out of jail free card for a lifetime of sexual assault, fraud, money laundering, lying to congress, and treason.

dividendman

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5386 on: December 18, 2018, 03:42:13 PM »
There are only three ways to get rid of a sitting president who doesn't want to go before the next election:

I think they're arguing for a fourth option, the one Spirow T. Agnew chose.  Which is: to commit so many federal crimes that you face a lengthy prison sentence, and then cut a deal with the prosecutor that includes voluntarily resigning before the end of your term in exchange for immunity for all past transgressions.  It's like a get out of jail free card for a lifetime of sexual assault, fraud, money laundering, lying to congress, and treason.

Right, but why would he do that now? With two years to go to commit more crimes? He can always do that in the last week before he leaves office due to losing an election right? And if he wins the election, he has another 4 years before he needs to use that option.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5387 on: December 18, 2018, 03:51:56 PM »
There are only three ways to get rid of a sitting president who doesn't want to go before the next election:

I think they're arguing for a fourth option, the one Spirow T. Agnew chose.  Which is: to commit so many federal crimes that you face a lengthy prison sentence, and then cut a deal with the prosecutor that includes voluntarily resigning before the end of your term in exchange for immunity for all past transgressions.  It's like a get out of jail free card for a lifetime of sexual assault, fraud, money laundering, lying to congress, and treason.

Right, but why would he do that now? With two years to go to commit more crimes? He can always do that in the last week before he leaves office due to losing an election right? And if he wins the election, he has another 4 years before he needs to use that option.

If Trump stays in office for two more years I'm betting that it will give the Southern District of New York Attorney General's Office enough time to take the Trump Organisation apart dollar by dollar so there is nothing left.  Oh, and then the Trump Tower will have been renamed.

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5388 on: December 18, 2018, 10:37:17 PM »
I’m curious if we are slipping into becoming our own echo chamber here. It sounds good to read that others think that the fraud is piling up to such a degree that the hand of justice has to strike. But how objective is any of this? Are we veering down some kind of partisan path where we are reinforcing our own world view, like the people who watch Fox News all the time and start truly believing some outlandish ideas?

I’m not actually accusing anyone of going off the rails, I just want to have some internal checks and balances.

Or more like I don’t want to set up too much anticipation in my own mind and then be disappointed when it doesn’t turn out that way. This guy has a history of getting away with an almost endless stream of stupefying behavior, to the point that I don’t think I can apply normal logic and expect a predictive outcome.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5389 on: December 18, 2018, 11:09:31 PM »
I’m curious if we are slipping into becoming our own echo chamber here.

On some political and social matters?  Absolutely.  But not on legal matters.

No president in history has committed as many crimes as Donald Trump, not before taking office and not after taking office, and that's only counting the ones he has openly admitted to and not the ones he is still denying.  No president has seen so many senior staffers resign in disgrace or plead guilty to various crimes. 

It may be just because he's been in the fraud business longer than your typical public servant, but Trump is objectively the most corrupt president in history as measured by number of legal proceedings, fines, settlements, and convictions.  He has paid fines or settlements on a bunch of different cases where he or his organization broke the law, including the recent $25million for fraud in the Trump University case but also covering discrimination and profiteering in the housing market, securities fraud, bank fraud, accounting fraud, multiple sexual assaults, various gaming violations related to his casinos, various environmental violations around his projects and properties, misuse of nonprofit status, various racist hiring practices, currency fraud, illegal lobbying, several MLM fraud schemes, more shady real estate deals than you can count, safety violations on construction projects, using illegal foreign workers, and various labor law abuses related to trump employees.  This stuff is all part of the public record.  He has literally paid hundreds of millions of dollars in court-ordered fines for these misdeeds.  No other president is even close.

You can maybe make the case that other presidents were more corrupt than trump because they committed a smaller number of more serious crimes, and that argument might be debatable if all of the current investigations into trump turn up zero evidence.  But I think the chances of that are pretty slim.  Trump has a lifelong history of trying to bend the law, of using public funds for personal enrichment, of exploiting investors and lying to law enforcement, and then declaring bankruptcy and somehow escaping consequences.  I would be shocked if his presidency was any different.

Including that last part.  I'll be shocked if he doesn't escape consequence this time, too.  Shocked in a good way, mind you, but history suggests he'll skate.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 08:37:19 AM by sol »

ysette9

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5390 on: December 19, 2018, 10:11:14 AM »
Maybe it is just general malaise and resignation setting in after two years of scandal after scandal that seem to have no effect, but I would be surprised if he does face real consequences for his actions. I just cannot square everything you have listed that has slid off of him while people got into such a furor over “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” lying. The hypocrisy is stunning.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5391 on: December 19, 2018, 10:49:14 AM »
Maybe it is just general malaise and resignation setting in after two years of scandal after scandal that seem to have no effect, but I would be surprised if he does face real consequences for his actions. I just cannot square everything you have listed that has slid off of him while people got into such a furor over “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” lying. The hypocrisy is stunning.

To me, general malaise seems to be an intentional portion of his defense strategy.  First, deny anything ever happened, then deny any involvement, then deny that its a big deal in the first place, often after spending years hammering at his opposition for a similar (and often much less serious) charge of misconduct.  The Clinton Foundation. McCain's war record. Obama's incorrect filings of campaign contributions. Hillary's email server. WJC's affair with Lewinsky and subsequent lies. 

This forces his opponents to argue that their actions were thoroughly investigated and that they've served the proper crime.  By evoking, say, the Clinton foundation ( "whataboutism") he's already made the starting point that it's nothing major, other Pols have done it, and at best it's just some fines.  Of course the two are not equatable, but he is hoping that years of bringing up their foundation will make the broader public think "enough, alll i've heard for the last two years is about these seemingly minor violations - I don't want to hear any more about another foundation (Trump's)"


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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5392 on: December 19, 2018, 12:55:21 PM »
Maybe it is just general malaise and resignation setting in after two years of scandal after scandal that seem to have no effect, but I would be surprised if he does face real consequences for his actions. I just cannot square everything you have listed that has slid off of him while people got into such a furor over “I did not have sexual relations with that woman” lying. The hypocrisy is stunning.

To me, general malaise seems to be an intentional portion of his defense strategy.  First, deny anything ever happened, then deny any involvement, then deny that its a big deal in the first place, often after spending years hammering at his opposition for a similar (and often much less serious) charge of misconduct.  The Clinton Foundation. McCain's war record. Obama's incorrect filings of campaign contributions. Hillary's email server. WJC's affair with Lewinsky and subsequent lies. 

This forces his opponents to argue that their actions were thoroughly investigated and that they've served the proper crime.  By evoking, say, the Clinton foundation ( "whataboutism") he's already made the starting point that it's nothing major, other Pols have done it, and at best it's just some fines.  Of course the two are not equatable, but he is hoping that years of bringing up their foundation will make the broader public think "enough, alll i've heard for the last two years is about these seemingly minor violations - I don't want to hear any more about another foundation (Trump's)"

All of this is consistent with the long-term strategy to erode the Rule of Law and restore an aristocracy that can do whatever they want, with only the thin veneer of "managed democracy" to keep the masses at bay.  This didn't start with Trump, he is merely the natural outcome of that strategy -- albeit perhaps not what its architects intended.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5393 on: December 19, 2018, 01:05:48 PM »
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-administration-syria-troops-withdrawal_us_5c1a5222e4b08db99059de01

Could this be the source of funds Trump will use to build his wall? He said he was looking in other places for the funding...

Can he legally pluck money from something that was designated for other reasons?

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5394 on: December 19, 2018, 01:24:42 PM »

Can he legally pluck money from something that was designated for other reasons?

Short answer: no.  Monies appropriated for a specific purpose must be used for that purpose.

x02947

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5395 on: December 19, 2018, 01:43:57 PM »
Spoiler: We were planning on building a wall in Syria all along.  Now we can use the Syria wall money, and the troops coming home from Syria, to build the wall on the border!  It's for the same purpose- there are Syrian rebels in that giant invasion/caravan.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5396 on: December 19, 2018, 01:56:48 PM »
"Those rebel scum in the caravan will feel the power of a fully operational Death Star"

"Uh, Mr. President . . . we don't have a fully operational Death Star."

*Tiny hand raises and makes choking motion*

"Sir, are your hands OK?"

"What did I even create Space Force for then?"

"We're not sure Mr. President."

"Well, what's that Death Star I've been seeing every night in the sky?"

" . . . the moon, sir?"

"Damned Hillary Clinton."

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5397 on: December 19, 2018, 04:09:39 PM »
Spoiler: We were planning on building a wall in Syria all along.  Now we can use the Syria wall money, and the troops coming home from Syria, to build the wall on the border!  It's for the same purpose- there are Syrian rebels in that giant invasion/caravan.

Yes, I believe he can twist anything into some idiotic story to bend to his wants. All of a sudden, all the money allocated for the Syria objective will be available to him to manipulate into something else like the wall! I hope nero is right!

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5398 on: December 20, 2018, 06:11:14 AM »
Spoiler: We were planning on building a wall in Syria all along.  Now we can use the Syria wall money, and the troops coming home from Syria, to build the wall on the border!  It's for the same purpose- there are Syrian rebels in that giant invasion/caravan.

Yes, I believe he can twist anything into some idiotic story to bend to his wants. All of a sudden, all the money allocated for the Syria objective will be available to him to manipulate into something else like the wall! I hope nero is right!

It's nereo, btw.  Note the second 'e'. 
I did not take the name of that sadistic roman emperor who supposedly played his fiddle as Rome burned.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5399 on: December 20, 2018, 06:40:33 AM »
okey-dokey nereo