Author Topic: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...  (Read 585406 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5200 on: December 03, 2018, 06:17:27 PM »
I think you missed my point.  Your clear implication is that engineering or medicine are more practical than a degree in liberal arts. My point is that many liberal arts degrees can be practical, and some liberal arts degrees may be more practical than other engineering or medicine degrees.

Which ones?  Don't get me wrong, I believe that there's tremendous value to society in the liberal arts . . . but they tend to be beneficial in indirect and more roundabout ways (as a synthesis of a bunch of theory) than the more technical fields which tend to be more direct in teaching an approach to a problem.  I honestly can't think of any liberal arts that I'd say were more practical than a medical or engineering degree.  That's not a slight on the arts, just an observation.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5201 on: December 03, 2018, 06:47:31 PM »
Music I think is part of the liberal arts, and for me music has had a profound effect on me. But it's not as quantifiable as say making the oil field produce more barrels of oil, or that kind of measurement. That is true for many other aspects of culture including literature, the arts, dance, etc. Basically, it is what makes us human. 

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5202 on: December 03, 2018, 08:04:17 PM »
I think you missed my point.  Your clear implication is that engineering or medicine are more practical than a degree in liberal arts. My point is that many liberal arts degrees can be practical, and some liberal arts degrees may be more practical than other engineering or medicine degrees.

Which ones?  Don't get me wrong, I believe that there's tremendous value to society in the liberal arts . . . but they tend to be beneficial in indirect and more roundabout ways (as a synthesis of a bunch of theory) than the more technical fields which tend to be more direct in teaching an approach to a problem.  I honestly can't think of any liberal arts that I'd say were more practical than a medical or engineering degree.  That's not a slight on the arts, just an observation.

Yeah I have a CS degree but I know that there is huge value in liberal art degrees. I've known plenty of people I work with who can't analyze a paragraph to save their life. There are studies out there that show that  a lot of people literally can't make a distinction between statements of fact and opinion.

I know a lot of people from the deep South who feel this way though. College is like an evil you have to pass through to gain market skills. Beware the liberal teachers and come out unscathed with only easily marketable skills on the other end. A lot of political myths about college out there.

I liked my CS classes, but the humanities were the memorable ones to me.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5203 on: December 04, 2018, 01:58:39 AM »
There is a certain voting bloc to which almost any degree that isn't law, medicine, or "computers" = "Underwater Basket Weaving" and is dismissed out of hand


Underwater baskets catch crabs and lobsters.  What's not practical about that?

NorthernBlitz

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5204 on: December 04, 2018, 02:44:44 AM »

I think the quotes in your post should be around "more practical" and not just "practical" (I changed the bolding and underlining from your quote of my post).

According to Google, the word practical means: "of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas"

I think it's pretty clear that engineering and medicine (which are about the implementation of our understanding of physical and biological sciences, respectively) are by definition "more practical" than the humanities. But, I'm open to listening to arguments to the contrary.

For what it's worth, I specifically chose engineering and medicine because I think they are also more practical than other physical sciences like theoretical physics and biochemistry (which I think are more about understanding "theory and ideas").

It also seems that your post suggests you believe that "not as practical" means "not as good". I didn't say that, but maybe that's your "strong bias" :). My thought was that people who may be anti-education probably appreciate it when people are designing them better tools and treating their ailments.

I think you missed my point.  Your clear implication is that engineering or medicine are more practical than a degree in liberal arts. My point is that many liberal arts degrees can be practical, and some liberal arts degrees may be more practical than other engineering or medicine degrees.

Maybe I still don't understand what you're trying to say.

Here's how I see our conversation:

I said: Engineering and Medicine are more practical than the liberal arts so people who typically don't see education as a positive might not view those with education in these fields as negative.

I think you said: I have a "strong bias" against liberal arts education because they can be practical too.

I said: (1) I used the words "more practical" and I think it's true that engineering and medicine specifically are more practical than the humanities. I believe that there are practical aspects to the humanities, but I also believe that engineering and medicine are almost entirely focused on the practical implementation of theoretical knowledge. I also pointed out that this is not the case for other physical sciences that are more interested in theory than practice. (2) I also feel that you think when I say that something is "more practical" I'm also saying that it's "better", where I literally mean that it's more practical.

I think you said: The liberal arts can be practical, sometimes even more practical than engineering and medicine. I agree with the first part, which is why I originally said "more practical" and why I think you omitting the "more" in your quote didn't capture what I said. I don't agree with the second part but I'm open to being persuaded.

-----

I think I understand the point that you're trying to make (if it's that some liberal arts degrees are more practical than engineering and medicine). But, I don't agree with it. Like GuitarStv, I'd be interested in hearing you flesh that out a bit. I'm open to being persuaded, but as of now I don't think what I said is incorrect. I think it's especially true in the context of the original discussion (how people with disdain for education view those fields).

I would agree with you if your statement was something like: some of the humanities are more practical than some of physical sciences. Some of the physical sciences are very theoretical (e.g. theoretical physics). Again, being less practical doesn't make something bad.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 02:53:32 AM by NorthernBlitz »

x02947

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5205 on: December 04, 2018, 06:51:41 AM »
Man, all this “I think you said” and “I think you missed my point” and so forth… Y’all are debating like a bunch of liberal arts hippies instead of having a good ol’ fashioned yelling match.  It’s almost like it’s possible to… have opposing viewpoints?  But people are clearly like the laws of nature, right?  There’s only one answer and that it!   

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5206 on: December 04, 2018, 02:19:04 PM »
Man, all this “I think you said” and “I think you missed my point” and so forth… Y’all are debating like a bunch of liberal arts hippies instead of having a good ol’ fashioned yelling match.  It’s almost like it’s possible to… have opposing viewpoints?  But people are clearly like the laws of nature, right?  There’s only one answer and that it!

Shut the fuck up! (-;

Is that better? Ha

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5207 on: December 04, 2018, 07:26:59 PM »
I thought this comment I read in the New York Times might have hit the nail on the head with Trump tweets.

"Trump shorts the market first, then makes his tweet and a few hours later he makes millions. Could he actually be doing this, manipulating the stock market for his and his own family to gain more personal wealth while being President of the United States?"

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5208 on: December 05, 2018, 05:38:11 AM »
I thought this comment I read in the New York Times might have hit the nail on the head with Trump tweets.

"Trump shorts the market first, then makes his tweet and a few hours later he makes millions. Could he actually be doing this, manipulating the stock market for his and his own family to gain more personal wealth while being President of the United States?"

It's plausable but at present completely lacking of facts.  It would be nice to have transparency to prevent such behavior and ward off such speculation.
One would hope the SCC would ultimately notice insider trading. Unfortunately DJT has decided such disclosures of his assets, and I wouldn't be surprised if he actually tried to do exactly this.

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5209 on: December 05, 2018, 06:01:42 AM »
I thought this comment I read in the New York Times might have hit the nail on the head with Trump tweets.

"Trump shorts the market first, then makes his tweet and a few hours later he makes millions. Could he actually be doing this, manipulating the stock market for his and his own family to gain more personal wealth while being President of the United States?"

It's plausable but at present completely lacking of facts.  It would be nice to have transparency to prevent such behavior and ward off such speculation.
One would hope the SCC would ultimately notice insider trading. Unfortunately DJT has decided such disclosures of his assets, and I wouldn't be surprised if he actually tried to do exactly this.

There's also all those rich pals Trump constantly phones in the evenings. On his unsecured personal phone.  He could be saying anything, whether financially sensitive or endangering national security, to anyone, and probably is.

talltexan

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5210 on: December 05, 2018, 07:20:12 AM »
When it first occurred to me that Trump might be doing this, I thought it was more likely he was doing it to help cronies than to help himself. I take him at his word that making a few $million here or there wouldn't change his life.

But it would help him settle scores with people who've done him favors. The tipping of the jobs report in early summer was particularly infuriating to me.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5211 on: December 05, 2018, 07:51:37 AM »
When it first occurred to me that Trump might be doing this, I thought it was more likely he was doing it to help cronies than to help himself. I take him at his word that making a few $million here or there wouldn't change his life.

But it would help him settle scores with people who've done him favors. The tipping of the jobs report in early summer was particularly infuriating to me.

Here's the thing I've learned about greed.  It doesnt' seem to matter how much money you have, or how much you need, greedy people always want more and the less ethical among them will lie cheat and steal to get more, even when they don't really need it and even when the costs of getting caught far outweigh the negligible benefits of another few million.  That's why Wilber Ross steals artificial sweetener packets even though he's worth just shy of a billion, or why Martha Stewart got nailed for insider trading of a few hundred $k even when she oversaw an empire tossing her a few million every month, or why Raj Rajaratnam is sitting in prison for insider trading even though he was already a bona fide billionaire.

Yes, I believe that a few $million wouldn't change Trump's life one iota, but no, I dont' think that would be a barrier to him trying to tip the scales (legally or not) to make another million.

NorthernBlitz

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5212 on: December 05, 2018, 07:59:25 AM »
I thought this comment I read in the New York Times might have hit the nail on the head with Trump tweets.

"Trump shorts the market first, then makes his tweet and a few hours later he makes millions. Could he actually be doing this, manipulating the stock market for his and his own family to gain more personal wealth while being President of the United States?"

Planet Money did a few shows about a Trump bot to see if they could make money on the market based on Trump tweets (spoiler, it didn't work).
BOTUS: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/04/07/522897876/meet-botus-planet-money-s-stock-trading-twitter-bot
Follow Up: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/12/29/573025035/episode-815-the-rest-of-the-story-2017?utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=bufferb5194&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

This isn't the same as the argument that Trump would short first and tweet later, but I don't believe that he puts that much forethought into his tweets (or much of anything).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 08:03:52 AM by NorthernBlitz »

Blueberries

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5213 on: December 05, 2018, 09:12:19 AM »
I thought this comment I read in the New York Times might have hit the nail on the head with Trump tweets.

"Trump shorts the market first, then makes his tweet and a few hours later he makes millions. Could he actually be doing this, manipulating the stock market for his and his own family to gain more personal wealth while being President of the United States?"

Yes.  This tactic has been done for decades, just not typically by someone in his position.

This isn't the same as the argument that Trump would short first and tweet later, but I don't believe that he puts that much forethought into his tweets (or much of anything).

But that's exactly how it is done properly.

I think he lacks intelligence, in general, but I think he is a master manipulator.


Here's the thing I've learned about greed. It doesnt' seem to matter how much money you have, or how much you need, greedy people always want more and the less ethical among them will lie cheat and steal to get more, even when they don't really need it and even when the costs of getting caught far outweigh the negligible benefits of another few million. That's why Wilber Ross steals artificial sweetener packets even though he's worth just shy of a billion, or why Martha Stewart got nailed for insider trading of a few hundred $k even when she oversaw an empire tossing her a few million every month, or why Raj Rajaratnam is sitting in prison for insider trading even though he was already a bona fide billionaire.

<edit>

Bingo.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5214 on: December 05, 2018, 10:06:23 AM »
Meanwhile in the world of election fraud...
https://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/sini-election-fraud-arrests-1.24231657

Turns out some GOP and independent workers were getting a bit creative and writing in names and faking signatures to help a GOP candidate (who still lost). MAGA!

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5215 on: December 05, 2018, 10:08:33 AM »
And even more overtly, Republicans in states where they lost are attempting to reduce the powers of incoming Democratic candidates. This has probably been getting the most press in Wisconsin.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/republican-democracy-stress-test-michigan-wisconsin-north-carolina.html

Disgusting. Honestly, this type of shit makes a great case for not having the lame duck sessions between elections and taking office. People don't need two months to travel to DC on horseback anymore. 
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 10:10:11 AM by Glenstache »

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5216 on: December 05, 2018, 10:33:19 AM »
I've been looking at the Flynn sentencing documents that were released yesterday.

The thing that caught my eye was that the Russia investigation does not appear first in the list of matters that Flynn assisted the US government with.  The first item is instead a criminal investigation about which no information is given at all: not who is investigating, not who is being investigated and not what the crime is.   What can be inferred is that -

1.  This criminal investigation is as important as, or more important than, the Russia interference/collusion investigation - this is a document signed by Mueller himself and he would not have been careless about the order of the matters referred to.

2. There is a whole page of redacted information that Flynn provided.  So he knew a lot about the matter being investigated.

3.  The document makes it particularly clear that Flynn began co-operating early on.  The FBI would have know Flynn lied in his interview on 24 January 2017 almost immediately.  If they then pointed this out and asked for his co-operation almost immediately, as would seem likely given the seriousness of the matter, Flynn could have been gathering intelligence on Trump's White House for about 3 weeks, until he resigned on 13 February.  The document also makes it clear that Flynn has provided "documents and communications" so there is back up the evidence he has given.

4.  The most likely candidate for an issue as important as, or more important than, Russia, and about which Flynn had a lot of information, would be something political (rather than something relating to eg Trump's finances and business interests).  The obvious one that we know about already - although it could be something entirely new - is obstruction of justice.  So we arrive at the point where Mueller might be signalling that a) Obstruction of justice by Trump/the Trump campaign/White House rises to the level of a crime, and b) Flynn has provided first hand evidence that the obstruction was taking place long before Trump talked to Comey or fired him, or started sending out dodgy tweets.

Time will tell, I guess.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5217 on: December 05, 2018, 10:42:09 AM »
And even more overtly, Republicans in states where they lost are attempting to reduce the powers of incoming Democratic candidates. This has probably been getting the most press in Wisconsin.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/republican-democracy-stress-test-michigan-wisconsin-north-carolina.html


It does strike me as somewhat absurd that we allow defeated candidates to remain in office for 2+ months before the incoming elected officials are sworn in.  What other job can you get fired for but keep coming in every day for months?

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5218 on: December 05, 2018, 11:03:56 AM »
And even more overtly, Republicans in states where they lost are attempting to reduce the powers of incoming Democratic candidates. This has probably been getting the most press in Wisconsin.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/republican-democracy-stress-test-michigan-wisconsin-north-carolina.html


It does strike me as somewhat absurd that we allow defeated candidates to remain in office for 2+ months before the incoming elected officials are sworn in.  What other job can you get fired for but keep coming in every day for months?

They aren't getting fired. This is more like knowing your contract may or may not get renewed.

Kris

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5219 on: December 05, 2018, 08:24:03 PM »
Trump explains the old white Republican rationale on just about everything.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-on-coming-debt-crisis-i-wont-be-here-when-it-blows-up?via=FB_Page&source=TDB

rocketpj

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5220 on: December 05, 2018, 10:16:36 PM »
And even more overtly, Republicans in states where they lost are attempting to reduce the powers of incoming Democratic candidates. This has probably been getting the most press in Wisconsin.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/republican-democracy-stress-test-michigan-wisconsin-north-carolina.html


It does strike me as somewhat absurd that we allow defeated candidates to remain in office for 2+ months before the incoming elected officials are sworn in.  What other job can you get fired for but keep coming in every day for months?

They aren't getting fired. This is more like knowing your contract may or may not get renewed.
More like knowing your contract won't be renewed, but still having access to the bank account and decision making about the benefits and expenses for 2 more months.

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5221 on: December 06, 2018, 08:13:55 AM »
Here is a morbid thought.  He won't want to resign and he won't want to be removed.  He won't want to wait out the end of his term and face an indictment.  I would not be surprised if he went the way of Adolph Hitler and Cesar Nero and committed suicide.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5222 on: December 06, 2018, 08:19:35 AM »
Trump explains the old white Republican rationale on just about everything.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-on-coming-debt-crisis-i-wont-be-here-when-it-blows-up?via=FB_Page&source=TDB

I'm pretty sure this is the same rationale used by many rich old people on climate change, including Trump.
"I won't be here when Florida goes underwater, so let's juice the markets now"

Lews Therin

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5223 on: December 06, 2018, 08:21:33 AM »
Nothing really indicates that he likes being the president. Remember the gates of ''Business'' open the moment he's no longer president and can start making a lot more money with other countries *cough* Russia *cough*. I doubt he`d want to remain more than 8 years (and even then, the second term is probably just because he doesn't want to lose.

Nick_Miller

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5224 on: December 06, 2018, 08:29:02 AM »
When I left the GOP years ago, I switched to being an Independent because I didn't want to "overreact" and go alllll the way to the other side. I wanted to keep my options open and vote "for the best person."

Today I switched my registration to Democrat. I can't ever see voting for a Republican ever again because I just can't ever see a Republican being "the best person" in a race these days. They are, across the board, vile, and they stand for everything I oppose. Plus, my state has a closed primary system, so now I'll actually be able to vote in the Democratic primary and have some small influence in selecting the Dems' candidates for the general elections.




nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5225 on: December 06, 2018, 08:38:12 AM »
When I left the GOP years ago, I switched to being an Independent because I didn't want to "overreact" and go alllll the way to the other side. I wanted to keep my options open and vote "for the best person."

Today I switched my registration to Democrat. I can't ever see voting for a Republican ever again because I just can't ever see a Republican being "the best person" in a race these days. They are, across the board, vile, and they stand for everything I oppose. Plus, my state has a closed primary system, so now I'll actually be able to vote in the Democratic primary and have some small influence in selecting the Dems' candidates for the general elections.

Never say never... I look at how much the GOP has changed in 20 years (or even in 5 years) and consider what it was a few generations back.  The parties have flipped on a number of issues.  Who knows what each party will look like 20 or even 10 years from now.

Nick_Miller

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5226 on: December 06, 2018, 09:10:08 AM »
When I left the GOP years ago, I switched to being an Independent because I didn't want to "overreact" and go alllll the way to the other side. I wanted to keep my options open and vote "for the best person."

Today I switched my registration to Democrat. I can't ever see voting for a Republican ever again because I just can't ever see a Republican being "the best person" in a race these days. They are, across the board, vile, and they stand for everything I oppose. Plus, my state has a closed primary system, so now I'll actually be able to vote in the Democratic primary and have some small influence in selecting the Dems' candidates for the general elections.

Never say never... I look at how much the GOP has changed in 20 years (or even in 5 years) and consider what it was a few generations back.  The parties have flipped on a number of issues.  Who knows what each party will look like 20 or even 10 years from now.

The GOP has essentially reached "evil mustache-twirling" status, and not even in a clever, charming bad guy way. They will keep doubling down on gerrymandering as the nation gets younger and browner and less religious. It is insane that (almost) half of the country supports this bullshit.

In my perfect world, there would be NO political parties, because having parties, especially just two parties, focuses the politicians on "winning" for their team instead of acting altruistically as they should.

But we don't live in my perfect world, so I am for the "good guys" now, and the Dems are definitely the good guys in this equation.

partgypsy

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5227 on: December 06, 2018, 09:50:12 AM »
Here is a morbid thought.  He won't want to resign and he won't want to be removed.  He won't want to wait out the end of his term and face an indictment.  I would not be surprised if he went the way of Adolph Hitler and Cesar Nero and committed suicide.

No way. I know people like him. They would rather take everyone down around them, and plead they did nothing wrong, than to do something like that. In his mind he's convinced he is innocent and this IS a witch hunt (because he should be able to do what he thinks is best). And Hitler faced a firing squad. Even if Trump faces prison, it will be a cushy prison where he will still be able to do business behind bars and a short sentence if that.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5228 on: December 06, 2018, 09:53:20 AM »
To commit suicide, you have to believe that the world is going to be better without you than with you.  I doubt Trump's personality will ever let him view himself in this way.  To my knowledge he has rarely shown contrition or admitted to even blatant mistakes . . . and if you don't make mistakes how could the world be better without you?

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5229 on: December 06, 2018, 10:06:26 AM »
Trump explains the old white Republican rationale on just about everything.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-on-coming-debt-crisis-i-wont-be-here-when-it-blows-up?via=FB_Page&source=TDB

I'm pretty sure this is the same rationale used by many rich old people on climate change, including Trump.
"I won't be here when Florida goes underwater, so let's juice the markets now"
Going by my "Flight Free in 2019" thread it's the rationale of the majority of the people on this forum.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5230 on: December 06, 2018, 10:37:42 AM »
Trump explains the old white Republican rationale on just about everything.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-on-coming-debt-crisis-i-wont-be-here-when-it-blows-up?via=FB_Page&source=TDB

I'm pretty sure this is the same rationale used by many rich old people on climate change, including Trump.
"I won't be here when Florida goes underwater, so let's juice the markets now"
Going by my "Flight Free in 2019" thread it's the rationale of the majority of the people on this forum.

what's 'flight free in 2019'?

JLee

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5231 on: December 06, 2018, 10:42:50 AM »
Trump explains the old white Republican rationale on just about everything.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-on-coming-debt-crisis-i-wont-be-here-when-it-blows-up?via=FB_Page&source=TDB

I'm pretty sure this is the same rationale used by many rich old people on climate change, including Trump.
"I won't be here when Florida goes underwater, so let's juice the markets now"
Going by my "Flight Free in 2019" thread it's the rationale of the majority of the people on this forum.

what's 'flight free in 2019'?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/flight-free-in-2019/

scottish

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5232 on: December 07, 2018, 05:05:08 PM »
Check this out.   Trump has been employing an illegal immigrant as a maid at his New Jersey golf course for the last 5 years.   

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/us/trump-bedminster-golf-undocumented-workers.html

Sounds as if maybe the prez likes immigrants after all?

Quote
But throughout his campaign and his administration, Ms. Morales, 45, has been reporting for work at Mr. Trump’s golf course in Bedminster, where she is still on the payroll. An employee of the golf course drives her and a group of others to work every day, she says, because it is known that they cannot legally obtain driver’s licenses.

Glenstache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5233 on: December 07, 2018, 05:15:56 PM »
Check this out.   Trump has been employing an illegal immigrant as a maid at his New Jersey golf course for the last 5 years.   

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/us/trump-bedminster-golf-undocumented-workers.html

Sounds as if maybe the prez likes immigrants after all?

Quote
But throughout his campaign and his administration, Ms. Morales, 45, has been reporting for work at Mr. Trump’s golf course in Bedminster, where she is still on the payroll. An employee of the golf course drives her and a group of others to work every day, she says, because it is known that they cannot legally obtain driver’s licenses.
I don't think that this is surprising at all. I also suspect this will be a small thing that is quickly forgotten. I do wonder what this says about the security and checks on people around the president, though.

Norioch

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5234 on: December 07, 2018, 09:51:27 PM »
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/trump-felony-michael-cohen-paul-manafort-collusion-payment.html
Quote
Federal prosecutors released sentencing recommendations for two alleged criminals who worked closely with Donald Trump: his lawyer Michael Cohen, and campaign manager Paul Manafort. They are filled with damning details. But the most important passage by far is this, about Trump’s fixer: “Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1.”

The payments in question, as the document explains, concern a payoff to two women who claimed to have affairs with Trump. The payments, according to prosecutors, were intended to influence the campaign, and thereby constituted violations of campaign finance law. They have not formally charged Trump with this crime — it is a sentencing report for Cohen, not Trump — but this is the U.S. Department of Justice calling Trump a criminal.

So... what are they waiting for? Why has he not been arrested yet?

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5235 on: December 07, 2018, 10:04:45 PM »
So... what are they waiting for? Why has he not been arrested yet?

We've known Trump has committed multiple felonies for months and months now.  While he's still in office, they won't arrest him.  He could murder someone on live television and it wouldn't matter, they can't indict a sitting President for anything at all, no matter how illegal.  Only the Senate has that power, and Republicans control the Senate.

bacchi

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5236 on: December 07, 2018, 10:05:41 PM »
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/12/trump-felony-michael-cohen-paul-manafort-collusion-payment.html
Quote
Federal prosecutors released sentencing recommendations for two alleged criminals who worked closely with Donald Trump: his lawyer Michael Cohen, and campaign manager Paul Manafort. They are filled with damning details. But the most important passage by far is this, about Trump’s fixer: “Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1.”

The payments in question, as the document explains, concern a payoff to two women who claimed to have affairs with Trump. The payments, according to prosecutors, were intended to influence the campaign, and thereby constituted violations of campaign finance law. They have not formally charged Trump with this crime — it is a sentencing report for Cohen, not Trump — but this is the U.S. Department of Justice calling Trump a criminal.

So... what are they waiting for? Why has he not been arrested yet?

It's up to our Republican controlled Congress. Ain't gonna happen.

Manafort was egregiously breaking the agreement with Mueller. He's gone all in for a pardon and is also hoping for a narrowly scoped Kavanaugh written decision on double jeopardy with regard to Presidential pardons.

How did they get those texts and documents sent by Manafort? A stingray tower? Key logger? Dump his phone when he's in the prison shower?

Bateaux

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5237 on: December 07, 2018, 10:13:16 PM »
Once it's all over I'm going to have to question my friends who voted for Trump.  I'll need to know how they were fooled into being a supporter and when they finally decided to dump Trump.  The ones who at this point still support Trump, I'm not going to to forgive.   Those that admit to being fooled and have regrets I can forgive.   

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5238 on: December 07, 2018, 11:12:03 PM »
What is so fascinating about the Trumps is that, if they were just simple grifters or charlatans, they would have been shut down long ago, dismissed as 'small time' losers.  But they have now put the whole of the faith and trust of America up for collateral while still playing the same short games of being out for themselves while having an oversized network and reach.  America is being subsumed by the Trump reality TV lifestyle where we read their uniformed, low information, rapid fire tweets and hang on uninformative press interactions.  What a waste.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 11:26:15 PM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5239 on: December 08, 2018, 08:37:26 AM »
Once it's all over I'm going to have to question my friends who voted for Trump.  I'll need to know how they were fooled into being a supporter and when they finally decided to dump Trump.  The ones who at this point still support Trump, I'm not going to to forgive.   Those that admit to being fooled and have regrets I can forgive.

I admire your optimism that any of Trump's voters will ever lose faith in him.  My read on the situation is that anyone who's still pulling for him after two years of revelation after revelation of lies, immoral, and illegal behavior will continue supporting him forever.

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5240 on: December 08, 2018, 10:22:58 AM »
Once it's all over I'm going to have to question my friends who voted for Trump.  I'll need to know how they were fooled into being a supporter and when they finally decided to dump Trump.  The ones who at this point still support Trump, I'm not going to to forgive.   Those that admit to being fooled and have regrets I can forgive.

I admire your optimism that any of Trump's voters will ever lose faith in him.  My read on the situation is that anyone who's still pulling for him after two years of revelation after revelation of lies, immoral, and illegal behavior will continue supporting him forever.

Well, to this day 15% of the American public thinks Nixon had no prior knowledge of the Watergate scandal and spoke up about it as soon as he learned.  Despite the tapes, the testimony and all the documents which have been made public knowledge since his resignation.  At the time of his resignation about a quarter of the country still approved of him (24%). We may be even more polorized today, politically, than during his second presidency.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/08/how-the-watergate-crisis-eroded-public-support-for-richard-nixon/

former player

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5241 on: December 08, 2018, 10:30:54 AM »
Once it's all over I'm going to have to question my friends who voted for Trump.  I'll need to know how they were fooled into being a supporter and when they finally decided to dump Trump.  The ones who at this point still support Trump, I'm not going to to forgive.   Those that admit to being fooled and have regrets I can forgive.

I admire your optimism that any of Trump's voters will ever lose faith in him.  My read on the situation is that anyone who's still pulling for him after two years of revelation after revelation of lies, immoral, and illegal behavior will continue supporting him forever.


Nothing is real these days until it has been seen on screen.  Live testimony with all the evidence might shift some of them.  But not all.  And Fox News is still working the "nothing to see here" angle.

Just Joe

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5242 on: December 08, 2018, 11:52:35 AM »
Check this out.   Trump has been employing an illegal immigrant as a maid at his New Jersey golf course for the last 5 years.   

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/us/trump-bedminster-golf-undocumented-workers.html

Sounds as if maybe the prez likes immigrants after all?

Quote
But throughout his campaign and his administration, Ms. Morales, 45, has been reporting for work at Mr. Trump’s golf course in Bedminster, where she is still on the payroll. An employee of the golf course drives her and a group of others to work every day, she says, because it is known that they cannot legally obtain driver’s licenses.
I don't think that this is surprising at all. I also suspect this will be a small thing that is quickly forgotten. I do wonder what this says about the security and checks on people around the president, though.

Wait - I thought he was all about Hispanic criminals and giving Americans jobs... /s

OurTown

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5243 on: December 10, 2018, 06:32:19 AM »
Maybe he will go into exile.  That was also a popular option back in the Roman world.

Roadrunner53

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5244 on: December 10, 2018, 07:00:43 AM »
Does anyone think the walls are closing in on Trump? There seems to be so much dirt on him but he manages to be a slippery eel and slithers away.

GuitarStv

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5245 on: December 10, 2018, 07:07:59 AM »
Does anyone think the walls are closing in on Trump? There seems to be so much dirt on him but he manages to be a slippery eel and slithers away.

He has been tremendously helped by the full support, approval, and backing of the entire Republican party.  They love who he is, and what he stands for.

sol

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5246 on: December 10, 2018, 08:32:53 AM »
Does anyone think the walls are closing in on Trump? There seems to be so much dirt on him but he manages to be a slippery eel and slithers away.

Of course they are.  The walls have been closing in on him since the moment he won the election.  I think history will look back on those photos of him looking frightened on election night with the context that this was the moment he knew he was going to jail.  You can only hide your sins for so long, and public office brings heightened scrutiny.

Trump has committed multiple felonies.  Remember that Bill Clinton was impeached for saying that a blowjob wasn't sex, and Congress decided that this was enough of a lie to make him morally unfit for office.  Trump lies that much every day before breakfast.  This morning, he was on twitter claiming that his payments to a porn star were unrelated to the election and weren't an attempt to conceal his marital infidelities from the public.

As for him being a "slippery eel", the only reason he has avoided prosecution so far is that precedent suggests we shouldn't indict a sitting President until after he leaves office, apparently because having a criminal president is better than replacing a president with a veep.  He's clearly guilty of multiple crimes, by his own admission and multiple lines of corroborating evidence.  There is literally tape of him on the phone with Cohen discussing the porn star payments he claimed he didn't know anything about.  Even if Republicans can continue to shield him from the Senate, Trump knows he's going to be indicted the minute he leaves office.  Everything he does now is on borrowed time, and I think it shows in his demeanor and disposition.  He's a dead man walking.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 08:38:51 AM by sol »

MasterStache

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5247 on: December 10, 2018, 08:57:55 AM »
Does anyone think the walls are closing in on Trump? There seems to be so much dirt on him but he manages to be a slippery eel and slithers away.

Of course they are.  The walls have been closing in on him since the moment he won the election.  I think history will look back on those photos of him looking frightened on election night with the context that this was the moment he knew he was going to jail.  You can only hide your sins for so long, and public office brings heightened scrutiny.

Trump has committed multiple felonies.  Remember that Bill Clinton was impeached for saying that a blowjob wasn't sex, and Congress decided that this was enough of a lie to make him morally unfit for office.  Trump lies that much every day before breakfast.  This morning, he was on twitter claiming that his payments to a porn star were unrelated to the election and weren't an attempt to conceal his marital infidelities from the public.

As for him being a "slippery eel", the only reason he has avoided prosecution so far is that precedent suggests we shouldn't indict a sitting President until after he leaves office, apparently because having a criminal president is better than replacing a president with a veep.  He's clearly guilty of multiple crimes, by his own admission and multiple lines of corroborating evidence.  There is literally tape of him on the phone with Cohen discussing the porn star payments he claimed he didn't know anything about.  Even if Republicans can continue to shield him from the Senate, Trump knows he's going to be indicted the minute he leaves office.  Everything he does now is on borrowed time, and I think it shows in his demeanor and disposition.  He's a dead man walking.

From "I don't know these people" to "I don't know about the payments, talk to Cohen" and now "Ok they were simple private transactions." I hope Mueller keeps digging and eventually he is tried for multiple felonies found guilty and tossed in jail for many years. And I'll laugh as that assbag is hauled in away in handcuffs yelling "What about the emails!!!!" Don't drop the soap!


weirdlair

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5248 on: December 10, 2018, 09:04:05 AM »
Does anyone think the walls are closing in on Trump? There seems to be so much dirt on him but he manages to be a slippery eel and slithers away.

Of course they are.  The walls have been closing in on him since the moment he won the election.  I think history will look back on those photos of him looking frightened on election night with the context that this was the moment he knew he was going to jail.  You can only hide your sins for so long, and public office brings heightened scrutiny.

Trump has committed multiple felonies.  Remember that Bill Clinton was impeached for saying that a blowjob wasn't sex, and Congress decided that this was enough of a lie to make him morally unfit for office.  Trump lies that much every day before breakfast.  This morning, he was on twitter claiming that his payments to a porn star were unrelated to the election and weren't an attempt to conceal his marital infidelities from the public.

As for him being a "slippery eel", the only reason he has avoided prosecution so far is that precedent suggests we shouldn't indict a sitting President until after he leaves office, apparently because having a criminal president is better than replacing a president with a veep.  He's clearly guilty of multiple crimes, by his own admission and multiple lines of corroborating evidence.  There is literally tape of him on the phone with Cohen discussing the porn star payments he claimed he didn't know anything about.  Even if Republicans can continue to shield him from the Senate, Trump knows he's going to be indicted the minute he leaves office.  Everything he does now is on borrowed time, and I think it shows in his demeanor and disposition.  He's a dead man walking.

From "I don't know these people" to "I don't know about the payments, talk to Cohen" and now "Ok they were simple private transactions." I hope Mueller keeps digging and eventually he is tried for multiple felonies found guilty and tossed in jail for many years. And I'll laugh as that assbag is hauled in away in handcuffs yelling "What about the emails!!!!" Don't drop the soap!
If the felonious orange idiot goes to jail, does he still get Secret Service protection? (Maybe sorting this out is what's taking Mueller so long. :D) Lock him up!

nereo

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Re: So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...
« Reply #5249 on: December 10, 2018, 09:05:04 AM »
It wasn't 'collusion' people, it was 'synergy', according to the Russians per SDNY's filing last Friday. 

We can't find the Trump campaign guilty of collusion (which was never a specific crime to begin with) because it was synergy, which coincidentally is also not a specific crime. 
Now it's all better. /s