So Let's Speculate about the Future of a Full Trump Presidency...

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

Seriously, he's gone already? I was just starting to love The Mooch!

[RangerOne]

The Mooch was a riot, I miss him as well. That man had one hell of a 10 day run talking up a shit storm and getting him self divorced all while looking pretty bad ass in a pair of aviators.

[Barbaebigode]

Nobody knew hiring only the best people could be so complicated.

[dividendman]

The fact that you Americans elected this clown show is the most disturbing thing of all.

Hopefully there will be no big emergencies that actually require a competent administration.

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

^Like North Korea, Russia, China, Venezuela, or Poland? I'm sure they will keep everything on ice until the adults show up.

[C-note]

The one-liners are the best!  My favorite so far - - - -

Build a wall?  Trump can't even build a cabinet.

[Letj]

The Mooch was a riot, I miss him as well. That man had one hell of a 10 day run talking up a shit storm and getting him self divorced all while looking pretty bad ass in a pair of aviators.

Lol. I suspect he was auditioning for a reality tv show.

[LaineyAZ]

I think we're forgetting about the continuing packing of federal courts with right-wing judges.  And most frighteningly, the appointment of at least one more Supreme Court judge, possibly even 2 or 3, who will undoubtedly be right-wing. 
That's going to be affecting our laws for decades. 

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

I think we're forgetting about the continuing packing of federal courts with right-wing judges.  And most frighteningly, the appointment of at least one more Supreme Court judge, possibly even 2 or 3, who will undoubtedly be right-wing. 
That's going to be affecting our laws for decades.

I thought "packing" normally referred to irregular practices, especially FDR's during the Great Depression, rather than ordinary vacancies being filled.

[Kyle Schuant]

the party in power typically does not get as much implemented as they want to, which should be comforting to the minority party. 

There's a cheap, fun and frustrating computer game called Democracy 3. Playing it teaches you some important things.

It has a couple of concepts: political capital, which you get from having certain people in your Cabinet, people who broadly represent certain interest groups (like "commuters" or "families" or whatever), and putting in policies that favour those groups gives you more capital from them, but each policy costs political capital. So let's say you build roads, this helps the "motorist" group, so your capital from Bob in the Cabinet who represents motorists goes up from 4 to 4.5, but maybe the "commuter" representative Charlie is upset and his capital goes from 4 to 3.5, what about the people using trains, man? If he loses enough political capital, he actually resigns from Cabinet - "In good conscience, I can no longer support this government!" and you have to replace him, which also costs political capital.

It's an abstraction of letters to MPs and Senate ratification processes and lobby groups and all that.

And things cost different amounts of capital, so for example subsidising trains might cost 1, but building a national monorail system might cost 20.


Whatever you do will help some things and hurt others. For example, let's say you're worried about public health, and you trace all the causes and effects and realise smoking is a big contributor to poor health. Cool, just raise taxes on smokes! Great, the smoking rate has gone down, but what's this? Poverty is rising, why? You look and realise... some of the poor gave up smokes, but some are still smoking, even at the cost of not paying bills and buying food. "They're stupid and should be more responsible!" Yes, but... they're not being responsible, so poverty is now worse overall. Alright, you say, let's make food cheaper for them and raise the food stamps funding. Bugger, now that $50 billion you raised from tobacco tax, $30 billion of it has gone to food stamps, WTF, how am I ever going to balance the budget?!


So you quickly learn three things,

1. you can't do everything,
2. it's easier to do a bunch of small things than 1-2 big things, and
3. whatever you do, you'll piss someone off; sometimes you'll find yourself doing things you don't really like just to placate some group of idiots who currently are ready to string you up

A friend of mine is an academic and actually uses this game in his business class to help explain how the world works. It's rare for first-terms to get re-elected, he says, they need to play a few rounds to figure out this annoying thing... compromise.

Once you've played it a bit you start understanding why the big things aren't getting done as promised, and why some relatively trivial things are being presented as a big deal.

[kayvent]

I feel sorry for your friend who uses it as a learning lesson in his classes. When people describe the game in the abstract it does sound novel and informative but the actual implementation is shoddy and lacking diversity of viewpoint.

As one example of this among many, the game's economic model is closely described as Neo Keynesian. If you try to govern like a Keynesian, Austrian, Classical, or New School economist, you'll fail. There are other choices in the game's construction and how certain things affect another that I believe either don't accurately reflect reality or show a definite leaning in the developer's ideology.

[Gondolin]

show a definite leaning in the developer's ideology.

I don't think you're ever going to find an apolitical simulation of political interaction.

[kayvent]

show a definite leaning in the developer's ideology.

I don't think you're ever going to find an apolitical simulation of political interaction.

It is a game. With variables. You can make them adjustable. You could choose for them to be influenced through the player's actions or explicit settings. You could make them vary from one play through to the next within some defined range or with constraints. Other games in that genre do do this. Even Democracy 3 does do this but it 'walls off' these sections to me immutable. (Some mods do 'fix' this. You could make the game lean more to the socialist side or libertarian or Randian, etc... I'd like to have seen that configuration or automatic movement in the base game instead of just presupposed to be the correct setting.)

[infogoon]

One of the few groups that has supported Trump, although I suspect the support is more tepid than it is sometimes portrayed, is the military.

I wonder if anyone has thought through the consequences of moving General Kelly to Chief of Staff. What's going to happen when the President has another tantrum and fires a decorated career officer?

[Fishindude]

I don't want to be mired in political, red/blue divisive squabbles - I can have those conversations with the in-laws :) 

You can throw this line of thought out the window.

[Kyle Schuant]

It is a game. With variables. You can make them adjustable.

You can adjust them. The game has a vibrant modding community.


You complain Keynesian doesn't work in the game, I found it did. So perhaps it's not the tool, it's the tradesman.

[kayvent]

It is a game. With variables. You can make them adjustable.

You can adjust them. The game has a vibrant modding community.


You complain Keynesian doesn't work in the game, I found it did. So perhaps it's not the tool, it's the tradesman.

Neo-keynesian does.

[scottish]

Transcripts of President Trump's conversations with other heads of states have leaked.

With Mexico

“If you are going to say that Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, then I do not want to meet with you guys anymore because I cannot live with that,” Mr. Trump said.

With Australia

“Malcolm, why is this so important?” Mr. Trump said. “I do not understand. This is going to kill me. I am the world’s greatest person that does not want to let people into the country.” Going along with the deal “puts me in a bad position.”

He added, “It makes me look so bad and I have only been here a week.”

That's quite the negotiator you folks have elected!

[Kris]

Transcripts of President Trump's conversations with other heads of states have leaked.

With Mexico

“If you are going to say that Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, then I do not want to meet with you guys anymore because I cannot live with that,” Mr. Trump said.

With Australia

“Malcolm, why is this so important?” Mr. Trump said. “I do not understand. This is going to kill me. I am the world’s greatest person that does not want to let people into the country.” Going along with the deal “puts me in a bad position.”

He added, “It makes me look so bad and I have only been here a week.”

That's quite the negotiator you folks have elected!

I just need to say this, though it has been said before.

Donald Trump is a narcissistic, incompetent idiot.

[nnls]

Transcripts of President Trump's conversations with other heads of states have leaked.

With Mexico

“If you are going to say that Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, then I do not want to meet with you guys anymore because I cannot live with that,” Mr. Trump said.

With Australia

“Malcolm, why is this so important?” Mr. Trump said. “I do not understand. This is going to kill me. I am the world’s greatest person that does not want to let people into the country.” Going along with the deal “puts me in a bad position.”

He added, “It makes me look so bad and I have only been here a week.”

That's quite the negotiator you folks have elected!

I just need to say this, though it has been said before.

Donald Trump is a narcissistic, incompetent idiot.

I couldn't believe that anyone would say that and be serious, let alone one world leader to another.

[Rural]

I think one thing to always keep in mind is that the president of the USA is not a monarch. This lack of power gives me assurance. Say if Trump wants to do something batshit crazy, his inner circle can convince him otherwise. Or the senate could block it. Or the congress. Or the Supreme Court. Or the department being tasked could follow the order with negligence. Or the next general election.

Personally, I'm not convinced his inner circle can convince him otherwise.  Yes, he can be held in check through the "checks and balances" system but his spur-of-the-moment tweets are troublesome. 

Although not within his presidential powers, I would not be surprised to read a DJT tweet declaring war on North Korea or contemplating declaring war on North Korea or any other threatening remark.  That's the batshit crazy stuff that nightmares are made of.

Only congress can declare war.

Correct. However, I think there is a high possibility that the current president would tweet and insult North Korea in the next 3.5 year. Next thing we know, they are bombing South Korea with nukes, artillery or both. Seoul is only 35 miles from the border, so it is within North Korea artillery range. Guess what, now we are getting dragged into war. So yes, while only congress can declare war, that does not mean we can avoid war.

No doubt we will crush North Korea if it comes to that, but it will be very costly in money and life.

For what it's worth, we are at least sort of still at war in Korea. This may create some wiggle room for the executive branch.

[sequoia]

Transcripts of President Trump's conversations with other heads of states have leaked.

With Mexico

“If you are going to say that Mexico is not going to pay for the wall, then I do not want to meet with you guys anymore because I cannot live with that,” Mr. Trump said.

With Australia

“Malcolm, why is this so important?” Mr. Trump said. “I do not understand. This is going to kill me. I am the world’s greatest person that does not want to let people into the country.” Going along with the deal “puts me in a bad position.”

He added, “It makes me look so bad and I have only been here a week.”

That's quite the negotiator you folks have elected!

Hey hey... that is winning!

He was right last year when he said "we will have so much winning if I get elected, that you may get bored with winning"

One of the few groups that has supported Trump, although I suspect the support is more tepid than it is sometimes portrayed, is the military.

I wonder if anyone has thought through the consequences of moving General Kelly to Chief of Staff. What's going to happen when the President has another tantrum and fires a decorated career officer?

imo General Kelly is going to last 6 months or less. I will bet money on this. Good people, who dare to point out that the emperor is wrong, will not last long in this administration.

Kelly is supposed to bring in structure, and organization to the White house. The president is going to get tired of this quickly. He enjoys I can do whatever the hell I want to do, and will not like what his Chief of Staff is telling him. Just look how he treated the Attorney General.

What will happen when Kelly is fired? Not sure, but I have my popcorn ready! This has been better than watching Game of Thrones - very MMM since we do not have to pay for this show.

[Gin1984]

If the Democrats put up a centrist candidate, I think the chances of a one-term Trump is quite possible. 

If the main effect of Trump is it pulls one or both parties to the center, that's a huge success in my book!  (with Trump-like emphasis on huge) :)

I find the statement funny because Clinton was the centralist candidate which is why some Bernie supporters did not come out to vote.  And many of those say unless we get a"real progressive" in the next presidential election from the Dems, they still won't vote.

[jim555]

Bring back the Mooch!  That guy is comedy gold.

[rocketpj]

Well, I think we'll be seeing a lot of developments on the whole investigation/pardoning powers front.  I have zero doubt Trump will push the limits of his 'right' to issue pardons to the very extreme.  That will not help him (except maybe to stay out of jail), but he doesn't seem to have the strategic ability to just stonewall and shred until the investigation goes away.

[Acastus]

I have been thinking that Donald will lose all semblance of popularity when he fails to lower taxes. That is the only mission for his side, and it is the reason stocks have been flying. Not killing O-care was a pretty big ding, and he will not recover from that quickly. Some followers actually thought he would fix things, so when he disables it, they will get mad. The timing for this is early 2018. His followers will give him until then to do it.

My new speculation is The US will fail to raise the debt limit, and it will cascade into a modest recession. It should be no worse than 2002, but that was kind of grim, so it is bad enough. Government shut down will last much longer than the last 3 times we closed for business. Maybe for a month instead of the weekend. Seniors will be permanently cheesed off, since they will not get their checks. Timing - October 4.

[Glenstache]

I hope it is not more of this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2017/08/13/the-photo-from-charlottesville-that-will-define-this-moment-in-american-history/?utm_term=.4f3eb84213c5

[aaahhrealmarcus]

I hope it is not more of this.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2017/08/13/the-photo-from-charlottesville-that-will-define-this-moment-in-american-history/?utm_term=.4f3eb84213c5

Yep. I was just thinking, the future of a full Trump presidency? Probably a lot more of this.

[T-Money$]

Seems irresponsible to blame Obama for Ferguson, Sanders for the baseball shooting or Trump for Charlottesville.

Politics sure can bring out the worst in people.  I hope one day humans will stop taking their identity and egos so seriously and just concentrate on their circle of control.

I can't wait for the Trump presidency to end, nor can I begin to predict what beholds.   

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I started to draft up a little retort to the circle of influence and control post (spoiler alert - it's pretty smug or entitled to enjoy living in your circle and not care about what goes on for the rest of the world that throws all of their energy into aspiring to be you).

But what worries me most today about the idea of a full Trump Presidency is that we are not even actively talking about how crazy this is less that one year ago.  Our President is certifiably ignorant (evinced by everything he says in reaction to the difficult questions that demand answers way above his pay grade - except he happens to be President).  Honestly, the US is in that brilliant WTF moment at the apex of the rollercoaster.  Trump prolongs the thrill for a while I guess, but I much preferred the Obama climb as opposed to being this much closer to the thrilling, breathtaking fall.

[Lagom]

I started to draft up a little retort to the circle of influence and control post (spoiler alert - it's pretty smug or entitled to enjoy living in your circle and not care about what goes on for the rest of the world that throws all of their energy into aspiring to be you).

But what worries me most today about the idea of a full Trump Presidency is that we are not even actively talking about how crazy this is less that one year ago.  Our President is certifiably ignorant (evinced by everything he says in reaction to the difficult questions that demand answers way above his pay grade - except he happens to be President).  Honestly, the US is in that brilliant WTF moment at the apex of the rollercoaster.  Trump prolongs the thrill for a while I guess, but I much preferred the Obama climb as opposed to being this much closer to the thrilling, breathtaking fall.

If anything I see this as evidence of how little most Americans paid attention in the first place. Hence why my most fervent hope is that if nothing else, this disastrous presidency results in drastic curbs on presidential power looking forward.

[GenXbiker]

I have no major worries about the Trump presidency.  Ok, I can't mention health care.  I didn't vote for him, but he's ours now, so I don't want to see the country fail with him at the helm, so I'm not going to take the unpatriotic viewpoint I often see expressed online and in the media.  For now, I'm going to enjoy the Trump stock market ride up!  $$$$$$

With all the negative press and such along with the low approval rating, it's hard to imagine Trump ever gets re-elected, but that's over 3 years off, so a lot can happen in that amount of time.

[sequoia]

I have no major worries about the Trump presidency.  Ok, I can't mention health care.  I didn't vote for him, but he's ours now, so I don't want to see the country fail with him at the helm, so I'm not going to take the unpatriotic viewpoint I often see expressed online and in the media.  For now, I'm going to enjoy the Trump stock market ride up!  $$$$$$

With all the negative press and such along with the low approval rating, it's hard to imagine Trump ever gets re-elected, but that's over 3 years off, so a lot can happen in that amount of time.

1. I do not want to see the country fail either. Having said that, it is not unpatriotic to criticize the president when he is wrong.
2. It is over 3 years. A lot can happen. He can be impeached.
3. We will be lucky if we do not have full out wars with other countries considering he likes to insult other leaders. Now we have to worry about possibility of full blown riots here too. Yes stock market is up, but do you think it will stay up in the next 3 yr?

[kayvent]

I have no major worries about the Trump presidency.  Ok, I can't mention health care.  I didn't vote for him, but he's ours now, so I don't want to see the country fail with him at the helm, so I'm not going to take the unpatriotic viewpoint I often see expressed online and in the media.  For now, I'm going to enjoy the Trump stock market ride up!  $$$$$$

With all the negative press and such along with the low approval rating, it's hard to imagine Trump ever gets re-elected, but that's over 3 years off, so a lot can happen in that amount of time.

1. I do not want to see the country fail either. Having said that, it is not unpatriotic to criticize the president when he is wrong.
2. It is over 3 years. A lot can happen. He can be impeached.
3. We will be lucky if we do not have full out wars with other countries considering he likes to insult other leaders. Now we have to worry about possibility of full blown riots here too. Yes stock market is up, but do you think it will stay up in the next 3 yr?

I think you need to ground things to reality. It's seven months into the Trump administration. He's started zero wars thus far. Obama started one by this time. I think when you factor in the fact that one was a Peace Prize recipient, despite Trump's best efforts, he's doing better. In total, Obama started wars against five countries.

When Trump gets into his sixth war, I'll start caring about how he vocalizes his opinion towards other leaders. Until then, I'll treat it like everything else Trump says and does: a useless vapor in the wind.

[acroy]

Seems irresponsible to blame Obama for Ferguson, Sanders for the baseball shooting or Trump for Charlottesville.

Politics sure can bring out the worst in people.  I hope one day humans will stop taking their identity and egos so seriously and just concentrate on their circle of control.

^^ Amen
Personally, I am enjoying it a lot. Looking forward to the next 3.5yrs. And the next 4yrs after that.

[caffeine]

It is a game. With variables. You can make them adjustable.

You can adjust them. The game has a vibrant modding community.


You complain Keynesian doesn't work in the game, I found it did. So perhaps it's not the tool, it's the tradesman.

It seems to reward Austerity if you can get the populace to not revolt. I always make massive cuts when I first take office. It seems every nation's starting point is unsustainable.

[Davnasty]

I think you need to ground things to reality. It's seven months into the Trump administration. He's started zero wars thus far. Obama started one by this time. I think when you factor in the fact that one was a Peace Prize recipient, despite Trump's best efforts, he's doing better. In total, Obama started wars against five countries.

When Trump gets into his sixth war, I'll start caring about how he vocalizes his opinion towards other leaders. Until then, I'll treat it like everything else Trump says and does: a useless vapor in the wind.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Lagom]

Seems irresponsible to blame Obama for Ferguson, Sanders for the baseball shooting or Trump for Charlottesville.

Politics sure can bring out the worst in people.  I hope one day humans will stop taking their identity and egos so seriously and just concentrate on their circle of control.

^^ Amen
Personally, I am enjoying it a lot. Looking forward to the next 3.5yrs. And the next 4yrs after that.

Out of curiosity, do you too believe that BLM and the KKK/neo-nazis are morally equivalent?

[scantee]

I have been thinking that Donald will lose all semblance of popularity when he fails to lower taxes. That is the only mission for his side, and it is the reason stocks have been flying. Not killing O-care was a pretty big ding, and he will not recover from that quickly. Some followers actually thought he would fix things, so when he disables it, they will get mad. The timing for this is early 2018. His followers will give him until then to do it.
 

Yep. This is why Republicans are hanging on and not denouncing Trump's disgusting behavior and beliefs in stronger terms. They want their tax cuts and they will do anything to get them. And if they don't get them before the 2018 mid-term? They will do everything to minimize or get rid of Trump. Given the utter incompetence they showed with healthcare, it is getting harder and harder to see how they will get even a straightforward tax cut passed. They certainly can't get tax reform passed, which is difficult and much more complicated than a simple tax cut. A tax cut usually is politically easy, but with the never-ending Trump clown show on display they are losing the political capital for even that with each passing day.

[GenXbiker]

1. I do not want to see the country fail either. Having said that, it is not unpatriotic to criticize the president when he is wrong.
2. It is over 3 years. A lot can happen. He can be impeached.
3. We will be lucky if we do not have full out wars with other countries considering he likes to insult other leaders. Now we have to worry about possibility of full blown riots here too. Yes stock market is up, but do you think it will stay up in the next 3 yr?

Right, not all criticism is unpatriotic.  I don't mean to imply that. 
Impeachment is certainly a possibility for any president, although simply not getting re-elected seems more likely.
I'm not worried about Trump starting any wars on his own, but I'm more concerned about NK launching nukes at us and/or our allies.  But I'm not going to worry about things I can't control.
The stock market never stays up indefinitely, but I'm happy for the gains I've gotten to this point.  I could use a temporary dip so that I can buy some stocks on sale since I'm cash heavy, but I'm pretty confident of the long term growth absent any SHTF events.

[acroy]

Out of curiosity, do you too believe that BLM and the KKK/neo-nazis are morally equivalent?

who says they are morally equivalent?

I do know KKK / neo-nazis discriminate. Bad.
I don't know if BLM discriminate. If they do, bad.

Of course they all have the right to peaceful assembly, etc etc etc

[prognastat]

I think you need to ground things to reality. It's seven months into the Trump administration. He's started zero wars thus far. Obama started one by this time. I think when you factor in the fact that one was a Peace Prize recipient, despite Trump's best efforts, he's doing better. In total, Obama started wars against five countries.

When Trump gets into his sixth war, I'll start caring about how he vocalizes his opinion towards other leaders. Until then, I'll treat it like everything else Trump says and does: a useless vapor in the wind.

Can you elaborate on this?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/23/politics/countries-obama-bombed/index.html

He was able to circumvent the requirement for congress' authorization to go to war by just tacking these conflicts on to the existing "war on terror" authorized under Bush rather than getting new authorizations for each new country he involved. I would assume though that any country that got bombed by the US either conventionally or through drone strikes on their sovereign territory would generally consider this an act of war.

[sequoia]

Right, not all criticism is unpatriotic.  I don't mean to imply that. 
Gotcha!

Impeachment is certainly a possibility for any president, although simply not getting re-elected seems more likely.
Agree

I'm not worried about Trump starting any wars on his own, but I'm more concerned about NK launching nukes at us and/or our allies.  But I'm not going to worry about things I can't control.
The stock market never stays up indefinitely, but I'm happy for the gains I've gotten to this point.  I could use a temporary dip so that I can buy some stocks on sale since I'm cash heavy, but I'm pretty confident of the long term growth absent any SHTF events.
Let me clarify, what I mean. Trump may not fire the first shot/missiles but he may still cause the war.

Just like what we seen regarding North Korea. We know NK like to spout off and threaten everyone. US (and everyone in the world) have always been the calm-cooler head and not engaging their craziness. Now US president is engaging them, and talking fire and fury, which is not helping defuse the situation imo. NK may now fire the first missile toward Guam just to prove their point since Trump threaten them (not necessarily hit Guam), and US may have to fire back to prove our point (fire and fury)....  and so on... and so on...

Same. I could use a dip to buy more stocks.

[ncornilsen]

Seems irresponsible to blame Obama for Ferguson, Sanders for the baseball shooting or Trump for Charlottesville.

Politics sure can bring out the worst in people.  I hope one day humans will stop taking their identity and egos so seriously and just concentrate on their circle of control.

^^ Amen
Personally, I am enjoying it a lot. Looking forward to the next 3.5yrs. And the next 4yrs after that.

Out of curiosity, do you too believe that BLM and the KKK/neo-nazis are morally equivalent?

Absolutely not. From the 10,000 foot view, BLM's aim is laudable - quit shooting blacks at a disproportionate rate when in police interactions. From the same view, excluding non-aryans is despicable.

The field levels a bit when you look at the actuality of what these groups are doing. By that I mean, the KKK people still being pieces of shit. The BLM folk are rioting and destroying things, and assaulting counter protestors and those they don't agree with every time a black person is killed in a police interaction, even when it's clearly justified. they have gone to the stance of promoting lawlessness, and the implied stance of expecting less of minorities. (which is a more incideous form of racism than overt racism, in my opinion.) So the effective aims BLM is doing is not a whole lot better.

That said, where is the moral outrage when communist/collectivists show up? no ideology has exterminated more people on this planet than that one.

[Glenstache]

Out of curiosity, do you too believe that BLM and the KKK/neo-nazis are morally equivalent?

who says they are morally equivalent?

I do know KKK / neo-nazis discriminate. Bad.
I don't know if BLM discriminate. If they do, bad.

Of course they all have the right to peaceful assembly, etc etc etc

In a slightly different direction based on the "God, Family, Country" in your signature line:
 From the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The white nationalists at the rally were espousing views directly contradictory to the founding principles of this nation. Period. Full stop. That is not only morally reprehensible, it is deeply unpatriotic in the context of our written, codified values and laws.

BLM wants to raise awareness of continued institutional racism and discrimination in our country. This is in full alignment with the founding principles of our country (which we, as a country, have been working pretty hard at fulfilling for 240+ years).

Both groups have the right to peaceably assemble. But, to give any semblance of cover to the white nationalists or some sort of "but look at this other group" false equivalency is to give a pass to the reprehensible points of view. Their point of view is, quite frankly, a cancer in our society that should be pushed back against with certainty and resolution. The fascists love false equivalency, and division, and all of the other related ways in which we do not put a united front against them. Those divisions are the only way a minority point of view can gain political power. The fascist experiment has been run before with dire, dire consequences. I can think of few things as patriotic as an American than pushing back against white nationalist fascists.

[DarkandStormy]

Out of curiosity, do you too believe that BLM and the KKK/neo-nazis are morally equivalent?

I do know KKK / neo-nazis discriminate. Bad.
I don't know if BLM discriminate. If they do, bad.

If you, like #45, stop at "bad" you are making a moral equivalence.  It is completely shallow thinking.  Read acroy's post for more.

[Kris]

Seems irresponsible to blame Obama for Ferguson, Sanders for the baseball shooting or Trump for Charlottesville.

Politics sure can bring out the worst in people.  I hope one day humans will stop taking their identity and egos so seriously and just concentrate on their circle of control.

^^ Amen
Personally, I am enjoying it a lot. Looking forward to the next 3.5yrs. And the next 4yrs after that.

Out of curiosity, do you too believe that BLM and the KKK/neo-nazis are morally equivalent?

Absolutely not. From the 10,000 foot view, BLM's aim is laudable - quit shooting blacks at a disproportionate rate when in police interactions. From the same view, excluding non-aryans is despicable.

The field levels a bit when you look at the actuality of what these groups are doing. By that I mean, the KKK people still being pieces of shit. The BLM folk are rioting and destroying things, and assaulting counter protestors and those they don't agree with every time a black person is killed in a police interaction, even when it's clearly justified. they have gone to the stance of promoting lawlessness, and the implied stance of expecting less of minorities. (which is a more incideous form of racism than overt racism, in my opinion.) So the effective aims BLM is doing is not a whole lot better.

That said, where is the moral outrage when communist/collectivists show up? no ideology has exterminated more people on this planet than that one.

Oh, FFS.

[acroy]

In a slightly different direction based on the "God, Family, Country" in your signature line:
 From the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The white nationalists at the rally were espousing views directly contradictory to the founding principles of this nation. Period. Full stop. That is not only morally reprehensible, it is deeply unpatriotic in the context of our written, codified values and laws.

BLM wants to raise awareness of continued institutional racism and discrimination in our country. This is in full alignment with the founding principles of our country (which we, as a country, have been working pretty hard at fulfilling for 240+ years).

Both groups have the right to peaceably assemble. But, to give any semblance of cover to the white nationalists or some sort of "but look at this other group" false equivalency is to give a pass to the reprehensible points of view. Their point of view is, quite frankly, a cancer in our society that should be pushed back against with certainty and resolution. The fascists love false equivalency, and division, and all of the other related ways in which we do not put a united front against them. Those divisions are the only way a minority point of view can gain political power. The fascist experiment has been run before with dire, dire consequences. I can think of few things as patriotic as an American than pushing back against white nationalist fascists.

You and I agree on most of this, lecturing to the choir. I lined out above as the distinction is not necessary. No need to specify. It implies some other type of fascist would be ok, which I am sure you do not want to convey.

From what I can tell, BLM is a movement without a cause. See attached, from their website, 'systematically and intentionally targeted for demise." Then see who is performing the de-mising. If that's not an elephant in the room, I don't know what is. My area (DFW) is still recovering from last year when 5 cops were assassinated during a BLM protest. Talk about tension......

So let's quit calling out racial groups. It only adds to the fire, there's no upside. Let it whither & die.

[DarkandStormy]

So let's quit calling out racial groups. It only adds to the fire, there's no upside. Let it whither & die.

Let's bury our heads in the sand about white supremacists who want to "ethnically cleanse" the country of anyone isn't straight, white and preferably male?  Get a grip.

"Looking the other way" led to the rise of Nazis in the first place.

You can pretend it's not happening, but that doesn't make it true.  Time to face reality head on.

[kayvent]

I think you need to ground things to reality. It's seven months into the Trump administration. He's started zero wars thus far. Obama started one by this time. I think when you factor in the fact that one was a Peace Prize recipient, despite Trump's best efforts, he's doing better. In total, Obama started wars against five countries.

When Trump gets into his sixth war, I'll start caring about how he vocalizes his opinion towards other leaders. Until then, I'll treat it like everything else Trump says and does: a useless vapor in the wind.

Can you elaborate on this?

Before I answer, I have to mention my premises. The USA typically only considers itself in a war if there is a declaration of war from congress. Her citizenry also considers that treaties that were never ratified by the government are treaties she is a part of. These two things, working in tandem, means that sometimes another country considers themselves at war with the USA while the USA considers itself a neutral observer in a conflict (the most famous example of this is with Japan before the second world war).

Personally, I consider it an war of war if a nation drop bombs on another country or violate their sovereign borders. Or if they participate in black ops against another state. Or if they send troops to fight another country's soldiers. Or if they start assassinating private citizens of another country without permission. Or if a nation self-declares and the USA intervenes to try and destroy it¹. Or if the USA topples an existing government. All those, I would consider acts of war and an informal declaration of it.

I'm not saying my definition is right, merely that it is different and thus my list would be larger than some. Without further ado: Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Syria, and the Islamic State In The Levant (ISIL). That last one is controversial¹.

¹ This makes my definition very liberal. If the USA would have lost the revolutionary war, Britain would not have called 1776 a war. It would have called it a failed rebellion. But, with hindsight and the Americans wining, we do call it a war between two nations. My reasons for calling ISIL a nation is complex and not fitting with this thread.