Poll

What are your thoughts on a covid-related full-scale lockdown in the USA, enforced by the military by Xmas?

Never happen
58 (53.2%)
Never happen but I wish it would
11 (10.1%)
Won't happen but I'm in self-imposed xmas lockdown
34 (31.2%)
Maybe in some places
5 (4.6%)
I'm actively preparing for it.
1 (0.9%)

Total Members Voted: 109

Voting closed: November 20, 2020, 07:28:11 PM

Author Topic: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?  (Read 17969 times)

RetiredAt63

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #200 on: November 27, 2020, 03:11:25 PM »
And the practical difference is what?  Until the change happens, nothing.  And will the change ever happen?  No.

You think that if some provinces just refused to implement the Canada Health Act nothing would happen? Because that's exactly what happened with Obamacare. There are still multiple states that never expanded medicaid.

Likewise, if one of Canada's provinces looked like North Dakota right now, you think that the Parliament wouldn't step in? I'm leery of that claim.

If a Province didn't implement the Canada Health Act its residents would lose reciprocity with other provinces and the Feds would withdraw funding.  Kenney is playing games with health care (and education) now, it will be interesting to see what happens in the next Alberta election.  They have 14,000 active cases right now out of a population of just under 4.5 million, worst in the country.  It's all Kenney's responsibility.  And Ford's for Ontario.   And Legault's for Quebec.  And Horgan's for BC .  Etc etc.  It's stupid when people blame Trudeau for things he has no power over.  Being PM is not being supreme dictator.

Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey?  The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #201 on: November 27, 2020, 03:13:49 PM »
Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey?  The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.

It's not that I'm American, it's that I'm a UK citizen. I wrongly thought that your system was closer to the UK's.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #202 on: November 27, 2020, 03:17:34 PM »
If you had googled you would see it isn't that easy.

I did, but I am more familiar with the US and UK constitutions, so I didn't know the right search terms.

We repatriated the BNA Act a while ago, but changing it is NOT easy.  It needs to pass the House, the Senate, and at least 7 provinces representing 50% of the population.  That 7 provinces/50% population thing basically makes it almost impossible to do anything.  Google Meech Lake Accord.

Congrats, you managed to legislate your way into a quagmire. That was dumb.

But along those lines, you don't realize how nice you have it with your senate. When was the last time that your senate blocked everything that came out of the house for years?

I think the theory was that anything blindingly in need of change would pass, but otherwise things work well enough not to change.  You know, if it ain't broke don't fix it.  But remember I'm a biologist who has watched a lot of federal governments, not a constitutional expert.

Re the Senate, never.  But recently the Senate brought out over 100 amendments to new environmental legislation that would have totally watered it down. They eventually withdrew them after public pressure. Heavily conservative Senate when the Senate is supposed to be non-partisan, thanks Harper.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #203 on: November 27, 2020, 03:32:53 PM »
And the practical difference is what?  Until the change happens, nothing.  And will the change ever happen?  No.

You think that if some provinces just refused to implement the Canada Health Act nothing would happen? Because that's exactly what happened with Obamacare. There are still multiple states that never expanded medicaid.

Likewise, if one of Canada's provinces looked like North Dakota right now, you think that the Parliament wouldn't step in? I'm leery of that claim.
What's happening in the US could happen in Australia. The states have to agree to things the Federal government wants to do. The federal government decided they wanted to build a road in one of our states, and the state didn't want to, so it didn't happen, even though the federal government tried to force them to do it by withholding funds for other things over a period of years.

We are a continent, not an island - we're 3 and a half times the size of Greenland. Having such a small rural population means that if covid19 got into it we would really be in trouble - the remoteness of everyone is significantly more of a challenge than in more populous areas. There's no easy way to transfer people. As we are also one of the most urbanised nations on earth, we also have the problems that density brings with covid19. If we had uncontrolled outbreaks, it would thus be much more difficult to stop in Australia than in many other places. That's possibly one reason why we're so quick to smother every outbreak. But, if other nations (or states) smothered it as soon as it appeared each time, they could do as well as us. It would be good if that had happened, because the world wouldn't need to start to be able to live with it, and poorer countries may never have had its challenges.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 03:44:33 PM by deborah »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #204 on: November 27, 2020, 03:38:22 PM »
Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey?  The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.

It's not that I'm American, it's that I'm a UK citizen. I wrongly thought that your system was closer to the UK's.

Oh, ours is.  Remember we left gradually, not like the traitors to the South*.  House of Commons, appointed Senate replaces House of Lords.  The Prime Minister is the leader of the Party that has the majority or can form a functional minority.  PM elected in his/her own riding, not country-wide. The difference is the Provinces, we started with 4 Provinces and added more as appropriate.  The last was Newfoundland and Labrador in 1949.  Since one of the original 4 was Quebec, the Fathers of Confederation had to sort out ways that would keep Quebec happy without upsetting everyone else.  Things like criminal law is federal, civil law is provincial.  That way Quebec kept its civil law based on the French Napoleonic code, while the others were based on English common law.  Federally we are officially bilingual, provincially it varies.  New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province.  Religion, well with a massively Roman Catholic province in the mix religion has generally been a non-topic politically.  For a long time the Liberals alternated between a Quebec and non-Quebec head of party, which also meant we have had lots of Catholic PMs.  Including Trudeau pere et fils, btw.  And of course our present leader of the NDP is Sikh.

So externally, the Provinces and clear federal/provincial responsibilities make us look more like the US.  But internally we look like just another Commonwealth Country whose Governor-General is the representative of our Queen, who chooses to live elsewhere.  Rideau Hall is always ready if she wants to leave the drizzle.  ;-)

* I have a bit of United Empire Loyalist ancestry, which means they were political refugees before that was a term.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #205 on: November 27, 2020, 04:00:25 PM »
Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey?  The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.

It's not that I'm American, it's that I'm a UK citizen. I wrongly thought that your system was closer to the UK's.

Oh, ours is.

Yes and no. It sounds like you couldn't gut a province with an act of parliament.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #206 on: November 27, 2020, 04:51:34 PM »
Seriously, why do Americans think their governments have these clearly defined boundaries and we are loosey-goosey?  The only thing Alberta and Quebec agree on is limiting federal power. And every other province agrees on that as well.

It's not that I'm American, it's that I'm a UK citizen. I wrongly thought that your system was closer to the UK's.

Oh, ours is.

Yes and no. It sounds like you couldn't gut a province with an act of parliament.

Um no.    The relationship of the Provinces to each other and to the federal government bear no relationship to those of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales to England and the UK.  Editorially, I would say fortunately so (shudders at the thought).  I don't think that could happen in Australia either.  We are not the union of various kingdoms, we are the confederation of various provinces.  Seriously, the thought of the Feds doing that to an annoying province, say Quebec or Alberta, brings thoughts of the breakup of the country.  We didn't do it during the height of the FLQ, which admittedly wasn't as violent as the IRA, but was pretty violent for us, bad enough for the War Measures Act.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #207 on: November 28, 2020, 04:13:55 AM »
I see OP hasn't been back to defend the absolutely stupid statements that were made.

The US handling of Covid has been imperfect, but in a country that's so fragmented (in terms of its level of governments) and in a country with a massive population, lots of intra-country travel and lots of big cities, it's understandable that it's hard to bring Covid under control.

The US also is more freedom-centric than, say, Australia, which means that its ability to get a pandemic under control is inferior, but it does of course benefit in other ways from its freedom-centrism, such as via its higher economic output. In New Zealand the populace were happy for the government to act against the rule of law in order to implement a wide, harsh lockdown; in the US you care about the rule of law and about citizens' individual freedoms, and I can totally understand the perspective. Likewise here in Melbourne we have had no cases for a month and yet there are still restrictions on small businesses' ability to access their office premises; that would never be tolerated in the U.S.

In fact here in Melbourne there was a several week period where we were in max stage lockdown uniformly throughout the city even though many postcodes had nil active cases and 90% of the active cases were in 5 or 6 postcodes. It would be the equivalent of asking Hollywood residents to lockdown because there were active cases in Compton and Long Beach. Again, in the U.S. it would never happen.

You can debate which approach is superior but I have a lot of sympathy for Americans and the proud traditions that America brings and which have made it the greatest country on Earth (till maybe Trump came along).

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #208 on: November 28, 2020, 05:46:39 AM »
I see OP hasn't been back to defend the absolutely stupid statements that were made.

The US handling of Covid has been imperfect, but in a country that's so fragmented (in terms of its level of governments) and in a country with a massive population, lots of intra-country travel and lots of big cities, it's understandable that it's hard to bring Covid under control.

The US also is more freedom-centric than, say, Australia, which means that its ability to get a pandemic under control is inferior, but it does of course benefit in other ways from its freedom-centrism, such as via its higher economic output. In New Zealand the populace were happy for the government to act against the rule of law in order to implement a wide, harsh lockdown; in the US you care about the rule of law and about citizens' individual freedoms, and I can totally understand the perspective. Likewise here in Melbourne we have had no cases for a month and yet there are still restrictions on small businesses' ability to access their office premises; that would never be tolerated in the U.S.

In fact here in Melbourne there was a several week period where we were in max stage lockdown uniformly throughout the city even though many postcodes had nil active cases and 90% of the active cases were in 5 or 6 postcodes. It would be the equivalent of asking Hollywood residents to lockdown because there were active cases in Compton and Long Beach. Again, in the U.S. it would never happen.

You can debate which approach is superior but I have a lot of sympathy for Americans and the proud traditions that America brings and which have made it the greatest country on Earth (till maybe Trump came along).
I haven't seen much evidence lately that Americans believe in the rule of law.  Trump certainly doesn't.  The militia's don't.  The "won't wear a mask even when it's mandated" lot don't.  American "freedom" has nothing to do with the rule of law, either inside America or in American actions outside America, and probably never has.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #209 on: November 28, 2020, 06:01:37 AM »
Trump may not have, but all the judges who threw out the lawsuits, and the Fox News pundits who called out Trump's mis-information, and heck even Fox News itself which called the right states at the right time, and guys like Chris Christie who called out Trump - all of them believe in the rule of law.

America is a beautiful country - one that is regularly shat on by foreigners who know nothing of it, and one whose citizens sometimes forget how privileged they are.  Having lived in the U.S., I fondly remember a lot of its great points.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #210 on: November 28, 2020, 06:22:33 AM »
Trump may not have, but all the judges who threw out the lawsuits, and the Fox News pundits who called out Trump's mis-information, and heck even Fox News itself which called the right states at the right time, and guys like Chris Christie who called out Trump - all of them believe in the rule of law.

America is a beautiful country - one that is regularly shat on by foreigners who know nothing of it, and one whose citizens sometimes forget how privileged they are.  Having lived in the U.S., I fondly remember a lot of its great points.
I thought we were talking about the pandemic, not the election.  Court decisions on the pandemic have been consistently against state actions to control the pandemic.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #211 on: November 28, 2020, 06:43:15 AM »
Bloop bloop, it spreads so fast and so easily.  I posted the url in the flattening the curve thread of the public health doctor in Kingston, Ontario explaining how one person's business trip to Toronto had caused over 25 cases in Kingston.  It could just as easily happen within a city, say Melbourne.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #212 on: November 28, 2020, 08:14:09 AM »
There was the truckie from Melbourne who spread it to regional Victoria including Shepparton.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #213 on: November 28, 2020, 09:08:05 AM »
There was the truckie from Melbourne who spread it to regional Victoria including Shepparton.

Yup, just takes one person shedding virus and moving around.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #214 on: November 28, 2020, 09:11:28 AM »
Trump may not have, but all the judges who threw out the lawsuits, and the Fox News pundits who called out Trump's mis-information, and heck even Fox News itself which called the right states at the right time, and guys like Chris Christie who called out Trump - all of them believe in the rule of law.

America is a beautiful country - one that is regularly shat on by foreigners who know nothing of it, and one whose citizens sometimes forget how privileged they are.  Having lived in the U.S., I fondly remember a lot of its great points.
I thought we were talking about the pandemic, not the election.  Court decisions on the pandemic have been consistently against state actions to control the pandemic.
Court cases have fairly consistently come down against the restrictions, particularly in cases where it restricts a specifically enumerated right, such as the right to assemble for redress of grievances and for religious services. As was the case recently in NY where the courts decided that no, you can’t shut down religious services but leave liquor stores open. You might also notice that the police in the US have been extremely reluctant to shut down political demonstrations. Because they’re well aware that the courts will likely rule against them. Why arrest people to have them get let out in short order. And most likely have them sue the police (successfully) for civil rights violations?

But I think what’s missing from the analysis is the cultural aspects. The courts are politicized just like every other aspect of government. If there wasn’t a difference of opinion, the courts wouldn’t be involved or would figure out a way to go along in any case. So while a lot of folks, particularly outside the US, applaud the relatively authoritarian measures being taken in certain places like NY, it’s basically a losing play in the long run. Yeah, it may save some lives but longer term the cost of those restrictions is going to really hurt places like NY. Because the persistent culture of disobedience has folks voting with their feet. Right now the big thing in NY isn’t getting a reservation with at a restaurant, it’s getting a reservation with a moving company. And we’re seeing that in California as well as other crowded, coastal areas. The ones that also have the more COVID restrictions. And where are people heading? To the suburbs primarily but the interior states as well. The interior states that have the fewest restrictions are seeing an in-migration boom.

So while we might cluck our tongues at people such as the Governor of South Dakota who has imposed really no COVID related restrictions, the fact is she’s playing the long game very well. South Dakota is a very thinly populated place without a whole lot going for it. It’s cold as hell in winter and has mosquitoes like you wouldn’t believe in the summer. But it’s population is on the bleeding edge of personal freedom and has no state income tax. And they’re seeing a large number of folks moving in. A year from now with a vaccine, South Dakota will be a net winner.  Oh and the governor? Look for her to be running for national office in a few years.

The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #215 on: November 28, 2020, 09:40:07 AM »
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #216 on: November 28, 2020, 10:45:29 AM »
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.
I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #217 on: November 28, 2020, 11:19:09 AM »
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.
I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.

Deborah, we are next door to the US so our laws and their laws are what we are used to.  What seemed draconian to you that would fly under our radar?  I didn't notice laws that would seem draconian to me while In was in Australia and NZ but they probably didn't impinge on my visit.  And of course I left before Covid really affected life.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #218 on: November 28, 2020, 11:44:11 AM »
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking.  In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic.  The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd.  That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder.  "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #219 on: November 28, 2020, 11:53:27 AM »
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking.  In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic.  The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd.  That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder.  "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.

It’s because cars are king in the US.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #220 on: November 28, 2020, 12:54:49 PM »
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking.  In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic.  The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd.  That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder.  "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.
That's exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. A completely different example is elections. Our politicians can call elections within certain boundaries (they are only elected for a certain number of years, so the election must be held before that time period is up...), but in the US a number of elections (maybe all) are held on prescribed dates.

I was visiting all the great lakes while I was in Canada, and I realised that one of them (Lake Michigan?) was totally in the US. I figured I could cross into the US (I had a visa), drive down to Lake Michigan, have lunch at a nice spot by the lake, and come back into Canada to continue my perambulations. The guy at the border had to have an address that I was staying at in the US to fill out his paperwork. The fact that I was booked into the Canadian border town that night wasn't good enough.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 01:19:06 PM by deborah »

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #221 on: November 28, 2020, 12:55:28 PM »
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.
I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.

Thanks for the note and I appreciate a different opinion.

Laws aren’t the point. Obedience to them and enforcement are. And things have changed over the last 20 or so years. Drug laws are observed in the breach if at all, as are a lot of other laws proscribing nonviolent behavior. While I personally don’t like the theft and fraud aspects of that, we are where we are. And it’s not a blue/ red thing. For example, the state of Connecticut passed a law requiring the registration of certain rifles after the Sandy Hook killings. The compliance rate was laughably low. The state estimated there were roughly 372,000 of them in the state before the law. A little over 50,000 were registered.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #222 on: November 28, 2020, 01:12:26 PM »
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.

This is my largest complaint in the USA. Even the rules that we do have are not enforced. But I guess that is also true for a bunch of other laws and regulations.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #223 on: November 28, 2020, 01:43:55 PM »
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.
I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.

Thanks for the note and I appreciate a different opinion.

Laws aren’t the point. Obedience to them and enforcement are. And things have changed over the last 20 or so years. Drug laws are observed in the breach if at all, as are a lot of other laws proscribing nonviolent behavior. While I personally don’t like the theft and fraud aspects of that, we are where we are. And it’s not a blue/ red thing. For example, the state of Connecticut passed a law requiring the registration of certain rifles after the Sandy Hook killings. The compliance rate was laughably low. The state estimated there were roughly 372,000 of them in the state before the law. A little over 50,000 were registered.
Are laws are enforced more vigorously on some parts of the population? Could this be one cause of black lives matter problems?

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #224 on: November 28, 2020, 01:47:19 PM »
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.

This is my largest complaint in the USA. Even the rules that we do have are not enforced. But I guess that is also true for a bunch of other laws and regulations.

I see it differently. We am extraordinarily free society in practice as a result.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #225 on: November 28, 2020, 02:17:09 PM »
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.

This is my largest complaint in the USA. Even the rules that we do have are not enforced. But I guess that is also true for a bunch of other laws and regulations.

I see it differently. We am extraordinarily free society in practice as a result.

An extraordinarily free society with cyclists/pedestrians getting mowed down by motorists and civilians getting mowed down by rampage shooters that acquired their weapons through straw-sales. Yup, so much freedom.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #226 on: November 28, 2020, 02:24:39 PM »
The police have pretty much said that aren't interested in enforcing mask mandates, anyway.

This is my largest complaint in the USA. Even the rules that we do have are not enforced. But I guess that is also true for a bunch of other laws and regulations.

I see it differently. We am extraordinarily free society in practice as a result.

An extraordinarily free society with cyclists/pedestrians getting mowed down by motorists and civilians getting mowed down by rampage shooters that acquired their weapons through straw-sales. Yup, so much freedom.

Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.

PDXTabs

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #227 on: November 28, 2020, 02:26:42 PM »
Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.

More woke than Oregon? Or do you mean a different nation state? Because I plan to do that as soon as I have milked nine more years of west-coast tech salary.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #228 on: November 28, 2020, 03:08:33 PM »
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.

I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.

When you visited America what did you see or experience that was prescriptive as to yourself or life in America in  general?

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #229 on: November 28, 2020, 03:26:31 PM »
Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.

More woke than Oregon? Or do you mean a different nation state? Because I plan to do that as soon as I have milked nine more years of west-coast tech salary.
I can't imagine sticking it for 18 years in a country I despise. If you're only in it for the tech money you might as well move to Dubai, you'll make more there and can escape faster.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #230 on: November 28, 2020, 03:31:25 PM »
Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.

More woke than Oregon? Or do you mean a different nation state? Because I plan to do that as soon as I have milked nine more years of west-coast tech salary.
I can't imagine sticking it for 18 years in a country I despise. If you're only in it for the tech money you might as well move to Dubai, you'll make more there and can escape faster.

Well, my kids are here too. I don't despise the USA. I just don't love it either.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #231 on: November 28, 2020, 03:45:02 PM »
Life anywhere is prescriptive - we all have laws. Different countries and states have decided on different ways to do things. When you visit a place, you notice differences. This doesn’t make either set of laws better than the others - each society has decided to live slightly differently.

For instance, we drive on the left. Many tourists visit the Great Ocean Road, and there are now signs all the way along it reminding people to drive on the left because visitors often start driving on the wrong side of the road and cause collisions. They also stop in the middle of the road to look at the koalas, and cause chaos. I noticed a lot of people stopping in the middle of the road to look at black bears when I was in North America, but people in Australia don’t tend to stop in the middle of the road, so we’re not expecting it when visitors do.

You notice laws that are different to the ones you’re used to, and you find them a bit jarring if you need to continually adjust - getting into the opposite side of the car and driving on the opposite side of the road obviously fit into that category. Sometimes differences are more of a problem. When you’re walking, the opposite road rules can make you more likely to be run over because you check the traffic in the opposite direction most.

People from the US continually say that they have more freedom, so I possibly find the extra rules there more unexpected than elsewhere.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #232 on: November 28, 2020, 04:58:15 PM »
Life anywhere is prescriptive - we all have laws. Different countries and states have decided on different ways to do things. When you visit a place, you notice differences. This doesn’t make either set of laws better than the others - each society has decided to live slightly differently.

For instance, we drive on the left. Many tourists visit the Great Ocean Road, and there are now signs all the way along it reminding people to drive on the left because visitors often start driving on the wrong side of the road and cause collisions. They also stop in the middle of the road to look at the koalas, and cause chaos. I noticed a lot of people stopping in the middle of the road to look at black bears when I was in North America, but people in Australia don’t tend to stop in the middle of the road, so we’re not expecting it when visitors do.

You notice laws that are different to the ones you’re used to, and you find them a bit jarring if you need to continually adjust - getting into the opposite side of the car and driving on the opposite side of the road obviously fit into that category. Sometimes differences are more of a problem. When you’re walking, the opposite road rules can make you more likely to be run over because you check the traffic in the opposite direction most.

People from the US continually say that they have more freedom, so I possibly find the extra rules there more unexpected than elsewhere.

Noted.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #233 on: November 28, 2020, 05:09:29 PM »
The upshot is the US has a culture that relatively speaking is not interested in restrictions and glorifies in rebelling against “the man.” You see it throughout the culture. The tolerance that other countries have for fairly draconian measures to control COVID just doesn’t exist to a large extent.
I don’t think this is true. You wouldn’t have laws if it was. When I have visited, I have been surprised at how prescriptive life is there. I think you do have draconian measures, but that they are different types of draconian measures to the ones we are happy with here.

Having lived for extended periods in both the U.S. and Australia, I think both societies (to generalise) are prescriptive but in different ways.

Here in my state in Australia it's accepted that if you drive 7km/h over etc speed limit and get caught you are subject to a $190 speeding fine. 11km/h a limit goes up to $390. Compare Germany where the equivalent fines are about 20-30 Euro.

Strangely, it's also accepted that if you fail to give way and hit someone's car, you are only issued the same "failure to give way" fine of $390 and you don't get any extra panelty for hitting someone's car. If you're poor and can't pay for insurance you get off free because we have very high judgment/sheriff enforcement costs. Even in cases where people KILL people through negligent driving, as long as there's no alcohol, speeding or intoxication at stake, there's no jail sentence.

In the U.S., speeding is enforced much less harshly - in fact some states still happily allow radar jammers - but if you get in an accident and cause injury or death, the judicial punishment/fine is much greater.

In other words, I've found that Australia punishes 'intention' fairly harshly, but it punishes 'outcomes' very gently if the intention wasn't there. It's a society that favours people without the cognitive resources to appreciate the risks they're taking. America is a society that doesn't care so much about intentions but harshly punishes outcomes.

You could say either, or both, are prescriptive approaches.

I also feel Americans work much harder than Australians, mainly because jobs there are so much more precarious. A mistake at work can lead to firing. Downside is more stress. Upside is more productivity and much, much, much, higher salaries for first-rate professionals. Here in Australia the spread of wages is much more even and productivity spread is more even too. I used to manage a lady who'd spend 2-3 hours a day checking in on her home business from work. She did it in the open. She guessed, correctly, that with Australia's worker protections plus the severance pay she'd built up from 10+ years in the job that it was much more expensive for me to counsel/fire her than it was to just accept a 1/3 reduction in productivity.

Each person's individual liberty can come at the expense of someone else's preferences. The mix of liberty and preference shifts between countries. America is at one end of the spectrum. Australia is somewhere between the middle and the other end. It's interesting to see how that has informed the covid response.  In the states, no one wanted to sacrifice more than anyone else. Here in Australia, the majority was forced into sacrificing in order to protect the minority. That's something that would never happen in the States.

PDXTabs

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #234 on: November 28, 2020, 06:02:03 PM »
Strangely, it's also accepted that if you fail to give way and hit someone's car, you are only issued the same "failure to give way" fine of $390 and you don't get any extra panelty for hitting someone's car. If you're poor and can't pay for insurance you get off free because we have very high judgment/sheriff enforcement costs. Even in cases where people KILL people through negligent driving, as long as there's no alcohol, speeding or intoxication at stake, there's no jail sentence.
...
In the U.S., speeding is enforced much less harshly - in fact some states still happily allow radar jammers - but if you get in an accident and cause injury or death, the judicial punishment/fine is much greater.

This isn't true about the USA. A momentary loss of concentration does not amount to criminal negligence, so unless you are driving recklessly or drunkenly you will also get away with a fine from the US criminal justice system. You will however, most likely, face civil penalties (money, not jail time).

RetiredAt63

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #235 on: November 28, 2020, 07:47:30 PM »
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking.  In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic.  The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd.  That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder.  "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.
That's exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. A completely different example is elections. Our politicians can call elections within certain boundaries (they are only elected for a certain number of years, so the election must be held before that time period is up...), but in the US a number of elections (maybe all) are held on prescribed dates.

I was visiting all the great lakes while I was in Canada, and I realised that one of them (Lake Michigan?) was totally in the US. I figured I could cross into the US (I had a visa), drive down to Lake Michigan, have lunch at a nice spot by the lake, and come back into Canada to continue my perambulations. The guy at the border had to have an address that I was staying at in the US to fill out his paperwork. The fact that I was booked into the Canadian border town that night wasn't good enough.

Given the amount of cross-border day shopping that happens, I am surprised the border agent gave you hassles.  I know people who live on the Canadian side of the St. Laurence and have a post box on the American side for online shopping delivery.  They are on the American side for maybe an hour?  Of course you being Australian may have made them suspicious that you were trying to sneak in under cover of a day trip.  /s

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #236 on: November 29, 2020, 07:46:36 AM »
Obviously you’re not happy with the status quo. Freedom is a risk as well as a reward. So, why not exercise your right to vote with your feet? There are states that are comparatively “woke” and others that aren’t interested. Move to the environment that suits you and everyone is happy.

More woke than Oregon? Or do you mean a different nation state? Because I plan to do that as soon as I have milked nine more years of west-coast tech salary.

Good question.  Either a US state or foreign state.   The US offers a lot of different places and mindsets, but does have unifying themes and cultural norms that some people don't like.

I think it foolish to stay in a place where you're not happy or living to your potential if you have the ability to leave.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #237 on: November 29, 2020, 12:18:23 PM »
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking.  In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic.  The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd.  That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder.  "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.

So in England you can just walk out into traffic and everyone stops?

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #238 on: November 29, 2020, 12:50:20 PM »
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking.  In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic.  The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd.  That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder.  "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.

So in England you can just walk out into traffic and everyone stops?
That's what happens in Iqaluit! However, in Australia, and England it isn't a crime if you do it. And, in Australia, if you get run over, it is the driver's fault.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #239 on: November 29, 2020, 01:27:14 PM »
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking.  In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic.  The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd.  That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder.  "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.

So in England you can just walk out into traffic and everyone stops?
Yes.

Although it is wise to ensure that the driver can see you and the car isn't going too fast to stop.

(If you are being a turd about it you may get a blast of a car horn and a rude gesture to go with it.  But being English our natural good manners usually mean this isn't necessary.)

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #240 on: November 29, 2020, 05:08:58 PM »
One that seems strange to me is jaywalking.  In England I have the right to pass and repass along the Queen's highway as I like as long as I am not obstructing traffic.  The idea that someone should restrict my right to walk along or across the road wherever I like is odd.  That they should do so in the "land of the free" is even odder.  "Jaywalking" doesn't even have an equivalent word in English English, let alone being a criminal offence.

So in England you can just walk out into traffic and everyone stops?

In Ontario if you do that at a crosswalk every one stops.  When I as a kid in Quebec there were times crossing in the middle of the block was safer than crossing at the intersection, so we jaywalked like mad.  But I thought Ontarioans were suicidal to trust cars to stop at crosswalks.   ;-)

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #241 on: November 30, 2020, 10:42:54 AM »
Hey, I was impressed when we moved to Pittsburgh and cars generally stopped at red lights! Before that we lived in Miami where people had a more laissez faire approach to traffic laws.

ender

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #242 on: November 30, 2020, 11:14:26 AM »
Hey, I was impressed when we moved to Pittsburgh and cars generally stopped at red lights! Before that we lived in Miami where people had a more laissez faire approach to traffic laws.

No kidding.

I live in the Midwest but our family has often gone to FL for vacations. In the midwest I can probably count on one hand the number of people I have seen who blatantly run red lights.

In FL, it's basically all the damn time.

partgypsy

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #243 on: November 30, 2020, 12:38:29 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if the right answer would have been to mandate absolutely nothing, let 2-3 million die and be done with it. Sure we would have had to prop up the life insurance industry and get Costco in the coffin business, but that's small potatoes compared to what's going on now.

Of course we'll never know.

Sorry what was the question?

Oh yes, strict lockdowns and martial law. Never gonna happen.
Costco is already in the casket business. I actually used a different company bc they can ship in 2 days. The bottleneck is not coffins but even for cremation a funeral home needs to accept the body to dispose of according to wishes. There might be exceptions say if you live on family farm and bury, but doesn't apply to most. Another bottleneck are healthcare staff esp respiratory techs and other qualified folks for these covid wards.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 12:41:27 PM by partgypsy »

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #244 on: November 30, 2020, 12:51:09 PM »
Sometimes I wonder if the right answer would have been to mandate absolutely nothing, let 2-3 million die and be done with it. Sure we would have had to prop up the life insurance industry and get Costco in the coffin business, but that's small potatoes compared to what's going on now.

Of course we'll never know.

Sorry what was the question?

Oh yes, strict lockdowns and martial law. Never gonna happen.
Costco is already in the casket business. I actually used a different company bc they can ship in 2 days. The bottleneck is not coffins but even for cremation a funeral home needs to accept the body to dispose of according to wishes. There might be exceptions say if you live on family farm and bury, but doesn't apply to most. Another bottleneck are healthcare staff esp respiratory techs and other qualified folks for these covid wards.

Yep, and then you have some crematoriums breaking down from overuse as in NYC and more recently El Paso.

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Re: Chances of covid-related martial law lockdown in the USA by Xmas?
« Reply #245 on: November 30, 2020, 02:44:04 PM »
Hey, I was impressed when we moved to Pittsburgh and cars generally stopped at red lights! Before that we lived in Miami where people had a more laissez faire approach to traffic laws.

No kidding.

I live in the Midwest but our family has often gone to FL for vacations. In the midwest I can probably count on one hand the number of people I have seen who blatantly run red lights.

In FL, it's basically all the damn time.

People used to honk at us because we stopped at a light. LOL

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!