Poll

Should having sex for money be legal?

Yes, it's just business
No, because of religious reasons
No, because of moral reasons
Yes - other
No - other

Author Topic: Prostitution  (Read 8793 times)

daverobev

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Prostitution
« on: November 10, 2013, 06:58:15 PM »
Just curious. I can see why you wouldn't *want* for there to be prostitution and that you personally can disagree with it (like gay marriage?), but should the state be able to stop people making money through sex?

(One of the stronger reasons I have for saying it *should* be legal is that you could then have better protection for the sex workers).

Not sure how appropriate this question is, even for Off Topic. I was just reading an article about proposed changes in France, making the crime fall on the buyer not the seller. Kinda makes me scratch my head.

oldtoyota

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2013, 07:06:52 PM »
Maybe the crime falls on the buyer because, in many cases, the seller does not have the power to prevent working in that industry because 1) they are poor 2) they were kidnapped and sold into prostitution 3) they thought their pimp loved them but then the pimp sold their bodies for sex. Lots of reasons to pin the buyer, IMO.


Russ

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2013, 07:08:04 PM »
I voted yes in your poll (which would be no to the question you pose in your post I think?). I generally support the idea of consenting adults of sound mind being able to do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't involve me if I don't want it to.

Not sure how appropriate this question is, even for Off Topic.
Why, because it involves sex?

Quote
I was just reading an article about proposed changes in France, making the crime fall on the buyer not the seller. Kinda makes me scratch my head.
That would definitely make being an undercover cop more interesting...

oldtoyota

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2013, 07:22:55 PM »
I voted yes in your poll (which would be no to the question you pose in your post I think?). I generally support the idea of consenting adults of sound mind being able to do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't involve me if I don't want it to.

Doesn't always include two consenting adults though...

Russ

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2013, 07:28:15 PM »
Doesn't always include two consenting adults though...

That's more than just prostitution then. I doubt sex slavery is legal in Nevada.

daverobev

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2013, 07:40:47 PM »
I voted yes in your poll (which would be no to the question you pose in your post I think?). I generally support the idea of consenting adults of sound mind being able to do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't involve me if I don't want it to.

Not sure how appropriate this question is, even for Off Topic.
Why, because it involves sex?

Quote
I was just reading an article about proposed changes in France, making the crime fall on the buyer not the seller. Kinda makes me scratch my head.
That would definitely make being an undercover cop more interesting...

Yes, I am not good at being concise, and I tend to muse and think while I'm typing. "Yes prostitution should be legal/No the govt does not have a right to tell me I cannot be paid for sex")

daverobev

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2013, 07:47:16 PM »
Maybe the crime falls on the buyer because, in many cases, the seller does not have the power to prevent working in that industry because 1) they are poor 2) they were kidnapped and sold into prostitution 3) they thought their pimp loved them but then the pimp sold their bodies for sex. Lots of reasons to pin the buyer, IMO.

Not sure why that makes it a crime for the buyer - assuming they don't know the 'seller' is a sex slave.

Obviously the kidnapper and 'owner' should face... extremely tough sentencing, and the kidnappee should be helped as much as possible. But that isn't really my question ('obviously' being a bad word for me to use, I should say 'In my opinion').

I am talking about the case where Mary or Geoff or Amy are short of cash, bored with working in a cubicle or at Tim's or are unemployed (which is where it gets difficult - as I don't think *anyone* should be forced into selling sex for money... ie, you wouldn't go to the Job Centre to claim the dole, as it's called in the UK, but be turned down because you hadn't tried prostitution!), decide to sign up with the local brothel and make some cash. Should that be legal, or should it not? *No* pressure applied. No stigma ("yeah, right!" - but again that is part of the point - make it legal, regulated and perhaps some of the stigma might go away?).

Just say you have a friend who goes to a prostitute once a month, or something - would you look down on them? (Ideally I'd say 'no'... and I think if I did have a friend who did that I'd be fine with it... but I'm pretty damn sure most of my family, for example, would be put off! My wife would be most upset, ha ha).

impaire

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2013, 08:53:49 PM »
Part

Not sure why that makes it a crime for the buyer - assuming they don't know the 'seller' is a sex slave.


Part of the issue being, of course, that some buyers willfully disregards this type of information, or that women are not allowed to mention it, etc. The reality of prostitution does not have much to do with the sanitized image you're describing--I recommend the tumblr "Invisible Men" for instance, or to dive into the reporting on Spain's experience with partially legalized prostitution (the NYT has an article, though you may have to go incognito to access it depending on your relation with they paywall: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/07/world/europe/young-men-flock-to-spain-for-sex-with-trafficked-prostitutes.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). Environments where controls are better enforced may work better, although even "model" Amsterdam has come under fire lately.

I guess I'm not theoretically against legal prostitution, but I seem to be much more skeptical than of the practicability of a humane implementation of such laws.

CommonCents

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2013, 09:13:14 PM »
My problem with making prostitution illegal is that it doesn't seem to work.  So, then you have people doing it illegally, the ones who are caught and punished are the workers not the buyers usually (who are the ones with the mental/health etc issues).  The workers are also not monitored for safe sex practices that prevent diseases and pregnancy.  So I'm not saying prostitution is great, because it isn't - there's issues with ensuring people are there because they want to and aren't forced by a john, mental issues, etc.  But, I think it's probably better off for the workers if it's legal than not, and the US would probably be better off as well too (lower stds, unwanted pregnancy, focus on other crimes).

impaire

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2013, 10:51:37 PM »
My problem with making prostitution illegal is that it doesn't seem to work.

Yes, that's my problem too. My problem with making it legal is that it doesn't work either, at least not in the forms that have been experimented to date.

gooki

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2013, 12:11:00 AM »
It recently became legal in New Zealand (some time last decade). I haven't noticed any deterioration of society, so I vote yes.

Richard3

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 01:27:09 AM »
It recently became legal in New Zealand (some time last decade). I haven't noticed any deterioration of society, so I vote yes.

Was it that recently? I thought it was before I finished high school (15 years ago).

I voted yes because the government should stay the hell out of people's private lives and (like drugs) it's a lot of wasted time and money policing it an missed tax revenue.

Half-Borg

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 05:40:20 AM »
I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be legal. It's a victimless crime. Every goverment ever has failed to enforce laws prohibiting prostituition. So I think making it legal has a lot of advantages and NO disadvantages.

Regarding all the concerns about human trafficking (is that the right term?) and sex slavery, well that's still illegal and might be easier to enforce.

Prostitution is legal in Germany since 2002, that's about all of the part of my life that I care about sex. I have never heard about anyone wanting to go back and making it illegal again. There is no moral deprivation, we don't have a prostitute and every corner and buying sex is still kinda frowned upon.

grantmeaname

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2013, 05:54:13 AM »
Doesn't always include two consenting adults though...
That's more than just prostitution then. I doubt sex slavery is legal in Nevada.
Prostitution almost as a rule has elements of nonconsensuality in it. Look at the amount of sexual violence prostitutes suffer and its mental effects, for example. Liking a clean, emotionally neutral idea in  theory is one thing, but liking a messy, violent, often coercive practice because it has similarities to the clean idea in your head is another.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 05:59:58 AM by grantmeaname »

Half-Borg

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2013, 06:40:19 AM »
Doesn't always include two consenting adults though...
That's more than just prostitution then. I doubt sex slavery is legal in Nevada.
Prostitution almost as a rule has elements of nonconsensuality in it. Look at the amount of sexual violence prostitutes suffer and its mental effects, for example. Liking a clean, emotionally neutral idea in  theory is one thing, but liking a messy, violent, often coercive practice because it has similarities to the clean idea in your head is another.
I 100% agree with you, but does making the clean idea in your head illegal solve any problems? Why not actually prohibit the messy, violent, often coercive practices and enforce that? It would be much easier for a prostituite to claim her rights if she can go to the police and tell them "hey i'm selling myself and this guy ain't paying". Of course that's oversimplified, but you get the idea.

Russ

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2013, 08:19:37 AM »
Prostitution almost as a rule has elements of nonconsensuality in it. Look at the amount of sexual violence prostitutes suffer and its mental effects, for example. Liking a clean, emotionally neutral idea in  theory is one thing, but liking a messy, violent, often coercive practice because it has similarities to the clean idea in your head is another.

Are you refuting my suggestion that prostitution is a consensual act, suggesting that legalizing prostitution would increase the prominence of violence and mental health issues in the sex industry, or both?

I'm not suggesting that it's emotionally neutral - I don't believe anything is - but I do separate other crimes such as human trafficking, coercion, rape, and battery, from the act of prostitution. I'm sure all instances of those crimes are nonconsensual, but if a cab driver gets robbed we don't say letting people ride in your car for money is nonconsensual and should be illegal.

Decriminalization in New Zealand has led to minimization of harm (both physical and mental) to sex workers, without increasing the size of the industry (study here, admittedly I haven't read all 400 pages). This is in contrast to your Wikipedia article, which makes no distinction between harm to illegal vs. legal prostitutes, and the study you linked, which is of prostitution in a criminalized environment.

grantmeaname

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2013, 08:45:57 AM »
Are you refuting my suggestion that prostitution is a consensual act
Yes, basically. Prostitution as it exists in the world is not consensual much (most?) of the time, so it's meaningless to pretend that it is by lumping all the bad aspects of prostitution into another mental category and then ignoring them.

Russ

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2013, 09:10:44 AM »
Alright, I think I understand what you're saying. I do believe the nonconsensual and hazardous aspects deserve a different mental category by virtue of their ability to be lessened with decriminalization of prostitution without affecting the amount of actual prostitution happening, but I didn't mean to give the impression of ignoring them. I agree that they are harmful, and I believe this harm can be reduced with decriminalization. How's that?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2013, 10:46:51 AM by Russ »

GuitarStv

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2013, 09:39:58 AM »
It should be legal so that it can be made safe for the people attracted to that kind of thing.  Standardized testing, rules that are enforceable by contacting legal authorities, and the elimination of pimps would seem to do a lot to make sex work better for those involved.

It always struck me as strange that paying someone for sex is illegal, but paying two people to have sex while it's video taped and then sold is legal.

Kazimieras

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2013, 10:35:27 AM »
For this poll it does largely depend on where.

In Canada what was described as prostitution is considered legal. The only illegal parts are the other activities around it (soliciting, living off the avails, etc.). I suspect the Supreme Court case in the coming months will fully

Richard3

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2013, 12:34:59 PM »
Are you refuting my suggestion that prostitution is a consensual act
Yes, basically. Prostitution as it exists in the world is not consensual much (most?) of the time, so it's meaningless to pretend that it is by lumping all the bad aspects of prostitution into another mental category and then ignoring them.

Prostitution as it exists in the world is also illegal most of the time. Strange thing - if something is illegal and profitable it tends to attract criminals.

chardog

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2013, 05:15:53 PM »
Speaking of laws against prostitution (and watching soap operas) :

http://www.uproxx.com/tv/2013/11/roughly-80-north-koreans-publicly-executed-watching-soap-operas/

Roughly 80 North Koreans Have Been Publicly Executed For Watching Soap Operas
BY THE CAJUN BOY / 11.11.13
| TWEET
| LIKE42

(via Getty Image)

In case you needed to be reminded of how lucky you are not to have been born in the Republic of Crazy that is North Korea, there’s this report from a South Korean newspaper.

The source, said to be “familiar” with the North’s internal affairs and recently returned from the country, said the executions were carried out in seven cities on November 3.

In the eastern port of Wonsan, the authorities gathered 10,000 people in a sports stadium to watch the execution of eight people by firing squad, the source quoted one eyewitness as saying.

Most were charged with watching illicit South Korean TV dramas, and some with prostitution.

Watching unsanctioned foreign films or TV — especially those from the capitalist South — is a serious offence in North Korea.

However, efforts to control their distribution have been circumvented by technology, with an increasing number being smuggled in on DVDs, flash drives and mp3 players.

As well as South Korean soap operas, US shows like Desperate Housewives are believed to have a small but avid following.

As you may recall, hungry  North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Un had his girlfriend executed recently for being in a “sex tape,” and it’s been reported that the country’s number of political prison camps has increased considerably under the Jong-Un regime.

But hey, Dennis Rodman says he’s a swell dude, so whatever, right?

Read more: http://www.uproxx.com/tv/2013/11/roughly-80-north-koreans-publicly-executed-watching-soap-operas/#ixzz2kNyd4QZA
Follow us: UPROXX on Facebook

wepner

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Re: Prostitution
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2013, 09:06:15 PM »
So grantmeaname is basically agreeing with Kim Jong-un?(sorry but I can't resist my favorite logical fallacy)

I ultimately chose yes because making it illegal doesn't seem to be stopping it but I am really interested in if you should try to seperate the messiness of things when you are talking about an idea. Like how much is causation how much is correlation and how do you even know?

Like I'm pretty sympathetic to the idea of legalizing drugs too, but I'm not so sure what to feel about this exchange that usually comes up:
Person who is against legalizing drugs: "people on drugs are more likely to commit other crimes like theft or violence"
Person who is for legalizing drugs: "those things are already illegal"

But using the person who want to legalizes drugs' argument it seems like there is nothing wrong with drunk driving since running stop lights and running people over is already illegal? I'm not sure what the difference between these would be...

So I think it's clear that prostitution comes with a lot of messy things like kidnapping and sexual assault and violence, but how many of these problems come from the fact that prostitution is underground and illegal? I guess it depends on if the increased regulation and the presumed safety increase for everyone involved will counteract the presumed increase in the number of prostitutes.