Author Topic: Sexist things that drive me crazy  (Read 79060 times)

MishMash

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2015, 06:47:38 PM »
So this happened at a bar(s) in San Francisco about 3 years ago. I had a bunch of friends that moved out there after college and we were out celebrating for someone's bday. Some 40 year old guy approached me asking if he could buy me a drink. I told him "I am not gay, but thanks for the offer, I'm good". Needless to say things escalated over the next hour and a half or so  with him trying to ask the same thing about 10 more times and following me to the next 3 bars (all within walking distance) to the point where I was seriously contemplating hitting this person.

I have never felt so uncomfortable in my entire life
-He never tried to force me to do anything
-He never physically touched me in any way

I guess in a way it was quite the learning experience in what a lot of women have to deal with. If a woman was to tell me a similar story about a guy approaching them while they are out drinking before this happened, I would most likely have thought... ohhh that sucks but it's not that big of a deal because of the two bullet points mentioned prior. But after that incident it was pretty eye opening.
Now assume the guy was 100lb bigger and a foot or so taller and that it was unlikely that hitting him would do anything other than ticking him off, unless you were lucky. Even more fun, huh?

+1 And that it can happen multiple times in one night, or if said dudes buddies are with him then they can ALL gang up on you at once. 

I've been "attempted" assaulted probably 6 times in my life (once at knife point after being jumped and drug into some bushes...my knife was bigger though), roofied twice, which funny story, the second time was the night I realized I was going to eventually marry my husband since he got worried he hadn't heard from me that night and went searching for me, to find me blacked out and some dude trying to shove me in a car while making crude jokes to his buddy...I'd had 2 beers...last time I ever went to a bar by myself to watch a football game in college (and honestly last time I've EVER gone to a bar by myself).   My husband says I'm an easy target, I'm tiny in height and weight with a D sized chest..apparently that combo is like painting a bullseye on yourself.

It is a thought that is constant in my mind every time I go out..every...single...time, particularly if I'm at a bar where looking someone in the eyes apparently means you want to jump their bones.  It doesn't inhibit my activities, but I certainly have a lot more situational awareness then I used to and I've become proficient at using a large variety of weapons...though the best weapon I have found is to eat something nasty, like those rancid bar eggs...then burp directly in offending dudes face, repeatedly if necessary.  And the best precautionary thing is some amazing friends...every time someone tried something, nothing ever happened usually because I have amazing friends that recognized I'd been roofied (and one stole my drink in college and HE ended up getting roofied from it) and gotten me home.  Or interceded with a herd mentality to bar someone from getting closer, and in one case threatened to toss a guy from a third floor balcony after he stalked me for three weeks.

Zikoris

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2015, 06:56:49 PM »
I can add to the list of sexist things that drive me crazy - one of my female coworkers freaked out a few days ago over the idea of our company hiring a male receptionist. They've been doing a bunch of interviews in the last few days and there was one guy out of several people (I'm not even sure if he was interviewing for reception - they were hiring for a few different positions). I told her she was being incredibly prejudiced, and that plenty of companies have male receptionist (she said "yeah, but this isn't that type of place"), but she saw no problem at all.

One of my ex-boyfriends had the same problem - he wanted to work as a house cleaner. The position available was through a family friend, and my grandma passed the following message back to me: "They're not sexist, they just won't hire a man for that sort of thing" (they hired men for other things). Uh, yeah, that's sexist.

MishMash

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2015, 06:59:57 PM »
I can add to the list of sexist things that drive me crazy - one of my female coworkers freaked out a few days ago over the idea of our company hiring a male receptionist. They've been doing a bunch of interviews in the last few days and there was one guy out of several people (I'm not even sure if he was interviewing for reception - they were hiring for a few different positions). I told her she was being incredibly prejudiced, and that plenty of companies have male receptionist (she said "yeah, but this isn't that type of place"), but she saw no problem at all.

One of my ex-boyfriends had the same problem - he wanted to work as a house cleaner. The position available was through a family friend, and my grandma passed the following message back to me: "They're not sexist, they just won't hire a man for that sort of thing" (they hired men for other things). Uh, yeah, that's sexist.


Ha, our housekeeper in CO was a guy and he was fucking amazing! 

dividendman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2015, 07:23:01 PM »
Where the fuck are all ya'll going to university/clubs/bars where this shit is going down repeatedly? Roofies all over the place?

In Canada, where I went to university (near toronto), I never once heard or saw any of the girls we went to clubs with get molested. And we binge drank like crazy. The guys on the other hand.... so many fights, teeth being lost, limbs broken, black eyes, etc. I thought it was WAY more dangerous for guys. I had a full beer bottle thrown at me from long range once! True, guys aren't getting raped but being stabbed/beaten to a pulp isn't fun either.

The only time one of the women was hurt was when she was so drunk and fell down the stairs to the club and broke her wrist.

Maybe it was because we always went in groups with (pretty big) guys and girls, dunno. I went clubbing/bar hopping a LOT back then, like 3-5x a week and if it did happen to anyone in my group I wasn't aware of it.

EDIT: Also, I recall there being a LOT of bouncers at every place and they LOVED throwing guys out and keeping as high girl:guy ratio as possible. If they even saw a guy annoying a girl (far from harassment) you'd get the boot! Where are the bouncers at these places?

Also, I haven't frequented that scene for about 10 years now so I don't know what it's like these days.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 07:27:41 PM by dividendman »

MishMash

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2015, 07:36:30 PM »
You know what, I said it doesn't inhibit my days....and just here thinking about it, it really has and I've never really noticed it.  After the last one, which frankly to me was the worst since it was a coworker I trusted that was 20 years older then me, who had a family that dropped me off at my house after work (my car broke down and pre MMM), asked to use the bathroom, then proceeded to HEAVILY come onto me all touchy/gropey/hair twirlinginy, he was one of the companies golden children so nothing ever happened to him, and I'm still forced to work with him daily (thankfully he's in another state now and I refused to quit sheerly out of principle).  I still kinda freak out if anyone touches my hair to this day...

I was so shocked I had NO idea what to do...like that one completely and totally blindsided me, I was speechless (which NEVER happens, I'm a smartass by nature)...all I could think to do was throw the thing that was closest to me at him...which was my cat.  Yes folks, I threw my CAT at a sketchy harasser.  He took the hint and thankfully left.

But I realized that must have been the last straw for me, I never go out without a weapon of some sort now, it's around the time I seriously took up defensive strategy/fighting, I don't ever make conversation with a guy I don't know or that someone hasn't "vouched" for, I stick with my closest friends from college and don't really try to make new ones, I never go out to social places without my husband or when he's gone, my best friend (the guy that got roofied after stealing my drink), when I am out I make blatant attempts to avoid eye contact with guys and definitely don't correct people when they think I'm married to my best friend when we are socializing with people outside of our main friends circle (PS husband is totally find with that one)


MishMash

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2015, 07:44:40 PM »
I went to a small college that had no bars/clubs so it was non stop house parties and frat parties and the amount of sketchy stuff that went on was amazing since there was no one monitoring.  I lived with best friend and a couple of other guys most of the time in college, but I had two female roommates, both got raped in their time there and I'm pretty sure the reason I never did was because of my friends, it wasn't for the lack of attempts though.  Grad school was in Georgia, less sketchy stuff but that's where I got roofied for the second time.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2015, 07:45:03 PM »
Where the fuck are all ya'll going to university/clubs/bars where this shit is going down repeatedly? Roofies all over the place?

In Canada, where I went to university (near toronto), I never once heard or saw any of the girls we went to clubs with get molested. And we binge drank like crazy. The guys on the other hand.... so many fights, teeth being lost, limbs broken, black eyes, etc. I thought it was WAY more dangerous for guys. I had a full beer bottle thrown at me from long range once! True, guys aren't getting raped but being stabbed/beaten to a pulp isn't fun either.

The only time one of the women was hurt was when she was so drunk and fell down the stairs to the club and broke her wrist.

Maybe it was because we always went in groups with (pretty big) guys and girls, dunno. I went clubbing/bar hopping a LOT back then, like 3-5x a week and if it did happen to anyone in my group I wasn't aware of it.

EDIT: Also, I recall there being a LOT of bouncers at every place and they LOVED throwing guys out and keeping as high girl:guy ratio as possible. If they even saw a guy annoying a girl (far from harassment) you'd get the boot! Where are the bouncers at these places?

Also, I haven't frequented that scene for about 10 years now so I don't know what it's like these days.
My guy friends were rarely aware of it.  Check out the hashtag on twitter, yes all women.   Until this year when I have gotten more open, most don't know.  But keep in mind sexual assault/rape happens not only with strangers, as was mentioned, but the majority (at least in the US) is from men who are known to the victim (no matter if the victim is male or female, though the majority are female).

dividendman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2015, 08:21:08 PM »
Yup, I'm not disputing it happens a lot, just kinda shocked that if it did I'd be totally clueless. Then again I'm a pretty big guy and cannot recall the last time I was physically intimidated by another human.

I read "The Gift of Fear" by Becker and it opened my eyes to how frequently women are afraid for their physical security around men!

lizzie

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #108 on: January 29, 2015, 08:24:05 PM »
Some discussion of research on rapists' tactics, particularly their use of alcohol as a tool and their reliance on the fact that a victim who was drinking is less likely to be believed:

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 08:30:57 PM by lizzie »

dividendman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #109 on: January 29, 2015, 08:51:39 PM »
"In Canada, one-half of all women are said to have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of 16  ... [and] the statistics demonstrate that 99 percent of the offenders in sexual assault cases are men and 90 percent of the victims are women": R. v. Ewanchuk, [1999] 1 SCR 330, at para 68, per L’Heureux‑Dubé J concurring.

Justice L’Heureux‑Dubé's opinion also contains a lot of other facts that would probably upset some posters in this thread.

"are said to have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence"

I bet 99% of guys have experienced at least one incident of physical violence if they went to college and/or bars. Fights happen so often when people are drunk.

And why would that data upset anyone in this thread? I think everyone in this thread is against sexual violence against women.

Celda

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #110 on: January 29, 2015, 09:47:09 PM »
Quote
the statistics demonstrate that 99 percent of the offenders in sexual assault cases are men and 90 percent of the victims are women":

That is only true for crime statistics - that is, cases reported to police.

In reality, women commit a significant percentage of sexual assault, and men are nearly 50% of victims of sexual assault.

Here is one multi-national study of college students that found equal amounts of men and women reporting being raped in the last 12 months of their most recent relationship:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf  (see page 10 and 12)

The CDC has found in two consecutive studies (the NISVS 2010 and 2011), that equal amounts of men and women reported being raped in the last 12 months. (Admittedly the lifetime figures have a large disparity, and the CDC does not actually classify men forced into vaginal sex as rape victims, but victims of "made to penetrate", which is despicable).

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2014/09/09/nisvs-2011-released-increased-male-victimization-and-rape-is-still-not-rape-noh/

That is a blog , but it simply links to and cites the data from the CDC's study.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2015, 08:20:21 AM »
Quote
the statistics demonstrate that 99 percent of the offenders in sexual assault cases are men and 90 percent of the victims are women":

That is only true for crime statistics - that is, cases reported to police.

In reality, women commit a significant percentage of sexual assault, and men are nearly 50% of victims of sexual assault.

Here is one multi-national study of college students that found equal amounts of men and women reporting being raped in the last 12 months of their most recent relationship:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf  (see page 10 and 12)

The CDC has found in two consecutive studies (the NISVS 2010 and 2011), that equal amounts of men and women reported being raped in the last 12 months. (Admittedly the lifetime figures have a large disparity, and the CDC does not actually classify men forced into vaginal sex as rape victims, but victims of "made to penetrate", which is despicable).

http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2014/09/09/nisvs-2011-released-increased-male-victimization-and-rape-is-still-not-rape-noh/

That is a blog , but it simply links to and cites the data from the CDC's study.
Actually no, he makes up stats based on heterosexual norms, or his assumption of them.  I found the PDF quite interesting, even if again, they are removing homosexual couples, but the later blog is extremely biased and not likely to be something to sway people.  I barely got through the first article before I could not deal with the inaccuracies within it.

SisterX

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2015, 11:22:38 AM »
I can add to the list of sexist things that drive me crazy - one of my female coworkers freaked out a few days ago over the idea of our company hiring a male receptionist. They've been doing a bunch of interviews in the last few days and there was one guy out of several people (I'm not even sure if he was interviewing for reception - they were hiring for a few different positions). I told her she was being incredibly prejudiced, and that plenty of companies have male receptionist (she said "yeah, but this isn't that type of place"), but she saw no problem at all.

One of my ex-boyfriends had the same problem - he wanted to work as a house cleaner. The position available was through a family friend, and my grandma passed the following message back to me: "They're not sexist, they just won't hire a man for that sort of thing" (they hired men for other things). Uh, yeah, that's sexist.
oh yeah that drives me nuts. Same with the comments about how men can't do anything domestic right and women can't do anything besides domestic stuff right. UGH. I also hate the way it's acceptable for someone (male or female) to comment on a woman's looks or dress in a professional setting instead of her accomplishments (y'all remember the semi "she's hot" comment Pres. Obama made about Kamala Harris?). Very inappropriate but oh so common.  Save the compliments (if that's what they are) for private not public times.

I just saw an article about Amal Clooney having to make a joke about what she was wearing.  THE WOMAN IS A GODDAMN HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER.  Who the fuck cares what she's wearing?

 
I bet 99% of guys have experienced at least one incident of physical violence if they went to college and/or bars. Fights happen so often when people are drunk.
[/quote]

I get that (although the places I've gone to have been far better about stopping/preventing fights than preventing sexual violence), but it's also a little different to have males of approximately the same age/weight/size get into a fight over stupid stuff than it is to have men specifically preying on women for sex and using greater size/weight and/or drugs and alcohol as an intimidation factor and excuse.

I'm like mishmash: short, slender, and with a large chest.  For some reason, those attributes mean that it's totally cool for some stranger on the bus to leer at me and harass me ("Hey, baby, why won't you look at me?  What's your number?  I just want your number.  Fucking cold bitch!  Hey, don't turn away!" and on and on for at least half an hour) and no one else on the very crowded rush-hour bus either batted an eyelash or did anything to stop him.  If I had responded in any way, rather than putting in my headphones, burying my face in a book, and doing my best to make myself as small as possible, there's a high probability he would have become violent with me.  There have been at least two cases in the news recently of women who were murdered for telling that exact type of man to leave them alone.  The sort of fear which is caused by circumstances such as the one I described is completely different from "hmm, if my buddy gets too drunk at the bar tonight there might be a fight."  So yes, men do get injured in bars and bar fights but that is not really analagous to the sexual predation we've been discussing.

tracylayton

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #113 on: January 30, 2015, 12:06:07 PM »
Darn!!! I misread the title of the thread and now I'm disappointed. I thought it said', "Sexiest Things That Drive Me Crazy".

Celda

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #114 on: January 30, 2015, 01:30:44 PM »
Quote
Actually no, he makes up stats based on heterosexual norms, or his assumption of them.  I found the PDF quite interesting, even if again, they are removing homosexual couples, but the later blog is extremely biased and not likely to be something to sway people.  I barely got through the first article before I could not deal with the inaccuracies within it.

That is not true. No statistics are made up. Please explain what you are talking about, you are misinterpreting something.

The study on college students were only about heterosexual couples.

The CDC studies were about the general public, and has nothing to do with heterosexuality or homosexuality. Likewise, the blog post about the CDC study has nothing to do with hetero or homosexuality, and does not assume anything about heterosexual norms.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 01:36:47 PM by Celda »

trailrated

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #115 on: January 30, 2015, 03:40:42 PM »
Darn!!! I misread the title of the thread and now I'm disappointed. I thought it said', "Sexiest Things That Drive Me Crazy".

Man you are the 3rd person to say that...I am starting to think we need to make one of those too!

SisterX

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #116 on: January 30, 2015, 04:37:33 PM »
Yeah you see this all the time - it's sort of insidious and I see it happen to a lot of women (and often men too depending on what they are getting lauded for). For some reason no one commented on Madeline Albrights appearance in conjuction with her job -and if they did it was negative which is just as bad. Most jobs have nothing to do with appearance!

I was once getting a medal along with my male co-workers for a rescue we did. Everyone gets a "awesome job. Thanks for your service" and I get a comment on my appearance. UGH. Especially painful because it was on TV and I was the rescue swimmer on that job. Same thing happened on a newspaper write up when we were fighting a fire. Giant photo of me with a fire hose in hand with only comments about my appearance as a woman rather than the job we did. I remember one of the female helo pilots as well as a ships captain had the same thing happen to them. Comments on their looks rather than the awesome job they did. Pisses me off to no end. Sexist for sure as that would never happen with my male shipmates.

I'm sorry to say, that shit'll follow you even after death:  http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/30/colleen-mcculloch-well-celebrate-a-woman-for-anything-as-long-as-its-not-her-talent

(TL;DR: article comparing women's obits to men's.  Women's say things like, and I'm paraphrasing, "She was a wonderful wife and mother who could cook a mean pot of spaghetti...oh and she was a rocket scientist too."  Or, "She was really homely, but that didn't stop her luck with the men!  This internationally acclaimed writer was married....")

caliq

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #117 on: January 30, 2015, 05:30:52 PM »
I've mentioned this before on another thread, but something happened today that reinvigorated my anger about the situation....

1.  DH is a disabled veteran who should have been medically separated from the Marines and wasn't. 
2.  DH spent 3-4 years post-Marines struggling through various jobs/periods of unemployment due to incurable neurological disability. 
3.  DH finally gets treatment for disability, has reaction to new medication, making symptoms significantly worse.  Doctors tell him he can't drive anymore.
4.  DH has to quit well-paying job because HR was uninterested in flex time, FMLA, or ADA accommodations.  He worked in a technical, hands-on field with no work-from-home option.
5.  DH gets 100% disability from the VA after more than two years of fighting for it. 
6.  DH hasn't been working for around 6 months, is focusing on his health and trying to find treatment protocols that will get him to a baseline level of function.  Bills are paid, tax-free disability is approx. equal to his previous take-home pay, etc.  We're fine.  I'm still in school so my contribution is minimal (10k/yr) but we aren't living month-to-month.  He will eventually get his medical stuff sorted (but not cured, never cured...) and hopefully be able to retrain online (either degree or self teach) and then work from home part time (and SAHD eventually - I would be totally satisfied if he gets to the point where he can be a kick ass SAHD and never 'works' again).
7.  We go to visit DH's family (my FIRST TIME meeting them) over the holidays. 

MY FREAKING MOTHER IN LAW.  Corners me while DH is in the shower.  Asks me why we're worried about money (we aren't -- we sold tickets we had bought for the Packers/Lions game because it was like -5 degrees with the wind chill and we paid a stupid low price for them and doubled our money when we sold - this was apparently a distress signal).  Tells me DH has always been lazy (um nope, 3 sport athlete in HS and was a freaking Marine...) and that he needs to just 'put some effort' into 'getting over' his disability.  Makes several other comments that demonstrate that she has done zero research on the condition her son will suffer from for the rest of his life.

THEN she starts telling me "it's not natural nor biblical for a man not to support his family."  DIRECT QUOTE.  She repeated the "it's not natural" part several times. 

I'm getting a Molecular & Cell Biology BS.  When we started dating, I was planning on a PhD.  For various reasons, I decided academia isn't for me and now I'm going to get a PharmD/MBA and hopefully work in clinical pharmacy and move my way up in healthcare management.  When we started dating, I made all of this very clear and informed him that I would likely make significantly more than he would.  He had zero issues with that.  DH's last job was good, not great, and I will double his income my first year as a pharmacist.  I told my mother in law this, and she just repeated herself about the 'it's not natural' bullshit.  Luckily, DH finished his shower and saved me before I ripped her head off.

Now, today, I'm at school all day and she calls him and starts insisting that he get started on a degree NOW  (note this man is sleeping 18+ hours a day and can't shovel the back deck without needing 3 days to recover).  Because he must have a degree so he can get back to his penis-mandated duty of providing for the family.

She says, "I know [your wife] is new-age or whatever, and doesn't care so much, but it will really help your relationship dynamics if you're working."

.....Right, because I need my man to support me and heaven forbid the wife is the breadwinner.  Plus there's all sorts of implications there about how she thinks the money provider has more power in the relationship and she doesn't want to see her son in a subjugated position because he doesn't work.  Also I'm sure having his mom judge him like this is not great for his mental health. 

Sexism is damaging to both sexes and can be perpetuated by both sexes. 

Also, I am really glad I didn't meet this woman before I married her son. 


dividendman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #118 on: January 30, 2015, 07:56:18 PM »
"She was a wonderful wife and mother who could cook a mean pot of spaghetti...oh and she was a rocket scientist too."

Well, that's a judgement call isn't it? I would take someone who could cook an amazing lasagna over a rocket scientist who couldn't (I imagine there are women who feel the same - i.e. they would want a guy who could cook who wasn't in a "prestigious" field)!

Isn't one of the reasons we're all on here to separate our work lives from what we really enjoy? I have a high-paying job that is "respected" but if I died and it said "Dividendman was a great computer scientist... oh, he also gave to charity and could cook amazing food" I would be turning in my grave. I'd rather have it say "Dividendman LOVED pizza! He gave all his wealth to charity and he could cook amazing butter chicken and oh yes, he did work in the computer industry for a bit".

MoneyCat

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #119 on: January 30, 2015, 08:18:19 PM »
The most sexist thing I've encountered lately is this weird campaign telling me that since I'm a man I'm supposed to teach other men not to rape, because apparently men naturally go around raping people if we aren't taught not to.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #120 on: January 30, 2015, 08:24:32 PM »
The most sexist thing I've encountered lately is this weird campaign telling me that since I'm a man I'm supposed to teach other men not to rape, because apparently men naturally go around raping people if we aren't taught not to.
It does appear that both men and women need to be taught not to rape, and what rape and sexual assault are, as scary as that thought is.  There was an article recently about a man who was raped at Stanford and he was not even sure he was assaulted, even though he said no. 
However, men do listen to men more, so even if that campaign is sexist, please realize that it is being done because it is more effective than women saying it. 

MoneyCat

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #121 on: January 30, 2015, 08:25:05 PM »
The most sexist thing I've encountered lately is this weird campaign telling me that since I'm a man I'm supposed to teach other men not to rape, because apparently men naturally go around raping people if we aren't taught not to.

That's not sexist, you just don't understand the reference.

Traditionally, anti-rape literature is directed at telling women how to "avoid getting raped". For example, don't be alone at night, don't consume drinks of unknown provenance, etc. etc. The police in particular are notorious for publishing advice on how to avoid getting raped.

The advice typically lacks merit, and moreover, it creates a culture where if a woman is raped, she will be reluctant to talk about it if she didn't comply with all the rules about how to avoid getting raped -- after all, it must have been her fault; she didn't follow the rules.

The campaign you mention turns this whole regime on its head. Instead of telling women to "avoid getting raped", it tells men "don't rape women". That's not sexism -- it's countering sexism. I do find it telling that despite your faux-social-justice posts on income inequality and "poor people", you would be fundamentally opposed to what is clearly a real social justice campaign.

So you are saying that I should not lock my door at night because people should just not rob my house?

Zikoris

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #122 on: January 30, 2015, 11:01:03 PM »
The most sexist thing I've encountered lately is this weird campaign telling me that since I'm a man I'm supposed to teach other men not to rape, because apparently men naturally go around raping people if we aren't taught not to.

I agree with that. While they're at it, why not:

1. Tell murderers not to murder people
2. Tell arsonists not to start fires
3. Tell bank robbers not to rob banks
4. Tell drug traffickers to stop
And so on.

There, you've just ended all crime! Close down the prisons! They just had NO IDEA they weren't supposed to do those things, it was all a simple misunderstanding!

lizzie

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2015, 04:07:25 AM »
The most sexist thing I've encountered lately is this weird campaign telling me that since I'm a man I'm supposed to teach other men not to rape, because apparently men naturally go around raping people if we aren't taught not to.

I agree with that. While they're at it, why not:

1. Tell murderers not to murder people
2. Tell arsonists not to start fires
3. Tell bank robbers not to rob banks
4. Tell drug traffickers to stop
And so on.

There, you've just ended all crime! Close down the prisons! They just had NO IDEA they weren't supposed to do those things, it was all a simple misunderstanding!

Here's the thing: murder, arson, etc.: these are all unequivocally condemned in our culture. When those crimes are committed, people generally don't swarm out of the woodwork to talk about what the victim did wrong, or imply that maybe no crime was committed at all.* With rape, though? Happens every time.

The point of these campaigns is to revoke rapists' social license to operate. Rapists know what works. From the link I posted earlier: "They don’t accidentally end up in a room with a woman too drunk or high to consent or resist; they plan on getting there and that’s where they end up."

They also know that the victim in that scenario is highly likely to be disbelieved, second-guessed, shamed, and just all around treated like shit, that is if she can even get over her internal shame and self-blame enough to report. Hell, people in this very thread are implying that it's not really rape when drugs or alcohol are involved.

Every time someone puts the focus on what the victim did wrong, every time someone acts like consent is this mysterious concept and maybe the rapist just didn't understand, every time someone says "well, she was drinking/wearing those clothes/hanging out in the wrong place so what did she expect," they are making it safer for rapists to operate. Rapists rely on the fact that we make it extremely socially and emotionally costly for their victims to report and that we don't think of raping a drunk acquaintance as "real rape." That is what these campaigns are meant to combat. And they are focused on getting men involved because they know that rapists are far more likely to take their cues about what's socially acceptable from other men.

*ETA: There's an interesting discussion to be had about exceptions to this. Smart serial offenders pick marginalized people to victimize, which lets them operate longer (think serial killers who go after prostitutes). The difference, I think, is that rape victims are marginalized almost by definition, regardless of their prior social status.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 04:33:18 AM by lizzie »

MoneyCat

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #124 on: January 31, 2015, 06:27:17 AM »
The most sexist thing I've encountered lately is this weird campaign telling me that since I'm a man I'm supposed to teach other men not to rape, because apparently men naturally go around raping people if we aren't taught not to.

I agree with that. While they're at it, why not:

1. Tell murderers not to murder people
2. Tell arsonists not to start fires
3. Tell bank robbers not to rob banks
4. Tell drug traffickers to stop
And so on.

There, you've just ended all crime! Close down the prisons! They just had NO IDEA they weren't supposed to do those things, it was all a simple misunderstanding!

Here's the thing: murder, arson, etc.: these are all unequivocally condemned in our culture. When those crimes are committed, people generally don't swarm out of the woodwork to talk about what the victim did wrong, or imply that maybe no crime was committed at all.* With rape, though? Happens every time.

The point of these campaigns is to revoke rapists' social license to operate. Rapists know what works. From the link I posted earlier: "They don’t accidentally end up in a room with a woman too drunk or high to consent or resist; they plan on getting there and that’s where they end up."

They also know that the victim in that scenario is highly likely to be disbelieved, second-guessed, shamed, and just all around treated like shit, that is if she can even get over her internal shame and self-blame enough to report. Hell, people in this very thread are implying that it's not really rape when drugs or alcohol are involved.

Every time someone puts the focus on what the victim did wrong, every time someone acts like consent is this mysterious concept and maybe the rapist just didn't understand, every time someone says "well, she was drinking/wearing those clothes/hanging out in the wrong place so what did she expect," they are making it safer for rapists to operate. Rapists rely on the fact that we make it extremely socially and emotionally costly for their victims to report and that we don't think of raping a drunk acquaintance as "real rape." That is what these campaigns are meant to combat. And they are focused on getting men involved because they know that rapists are far more likely to take their cues about what's socially acceptable from other men.

*ETA: There's an interesting discussion to be had about exceptions to this. Smart serial offenders pick marginalized people to victimize, which lets them operate longer (think serial killers who go after prostitutes). The difference, I think, is that rape victims are marginalized almost by definition, regardless of their prior social status.


Rape is a horrible, violent crime and I can't think of any guys who don't see it that way.  Guys are horrified by it like women.  Some men are also raped, although in American society we think it's funny when that happens to men for some reason (and women are usually the ones laughing the hardest about it).  I don't believe there is such a thing as "rape culture", because if that existed, then people would be dismissive of rape and that's not the case at all.  Rape is taken very, very seriously.  It's taken so seriously that those who are accused of committing rape have their names released to the media and they are banned from college campuses even before any charges are brought against them.  Unfortunately, there is a current hysteria about rape, like telling female college students that they have a 20% chance of being sexually assaulted when the real rate is 0.61%.  Men are being told that we are all potential rapists, apparently because people think that men are all naturally violent psychopaths who are constantly looking for opportunities to attack women.  It's sexist and unfair.

There is a very strange hysteria about men right now that affects men in our everyday lives.  On weekends, I teach children's martial arts classes at the school down the street and some mothers freak out when they find out an adult male is teaching classes of little kids.  It's only after I tell them that I'm a certified teacher who submitted fingerprints to the state government and passed a criminal background check that they calm down about it.  Another man on this thread already mentioned being harassed for visiting a public park alone.  This is becoming a common problem and it's getting worse because clickbait sites are advancing this agenda.

LalsConstant

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #125 on: January 31, 2015, 07:07:57 AM »
The most sexist thing I've encountered lately is this weird campaign telling me that since I'm a man I'm supposed to teach other men not to rape, because apparently men naturally go around raping people if we aren't taught not to.

I agree with that. While they're at it, why not:

1. Tell murderers not to murder people
2. Tell arsonists not to start fires
3. Tell bank robbers not to rob banks
4. Tell drug traffickers to stop
And so on.

There, you've just ended all crime! Close down the prisons! They just had NO IDEA they weren't supposed to do those things, it was all a simple misunderstanding!

Here's the thing: murder, arson, etc.: these are all unequivocally condemned in our culture. When those crimes are committed, people generally don't swarm out of the woodwork to talk about what the victim did wrong, or imply that maybe no crime was committed at all.* With rape, though? Happens every time.

It's not that I don't see the point here both sides are making, but a couple things to point out:

I've certainly heard of people who were attacked or even murdered being blamed for it.  "What were they doing, walking alone at night carrying a duffel bag full of money?"  I've heard people blame individuals and businesses for not locking their doors or using other common security procedures when they get robbed.  It's natural for people to look at these incidents and try to perform a pathology analysis on them.

I think a lot of this kind of talk goes to the idea of Dunbar's number.  If this happened for example to your sister (God forbid), your first reaction certainly wouldn't be to pathologize, but when it's someone you don't know, the empathy is less immediate, and your mind goes to the facts and circumstances because what you're thinking is "How I can prevent that terrible thing from happening to me or individuals who fit into my Dunbar set?"  I lack the moral authority and intelligence to dictate how sensitive people should be about saying things like that, but I doubt sincerely that the motivation behind statements like that is sinister. 

So while I do think that's terribly boorish to treat a horrible tragedy in someone else's life as so incidental just because you personally don't feel the sting of it, I also think it's also important people at least are thinking about how to prevent these things from happening (whether their logic holds water or not is a different matter).  Some people are going to be more sensitive to recognizing the victimhood of others, some people are going to be more resolved to preventing re-occurrence.  What results is a conflict of values which can't be terribly objective, and while it's fine imho to fall into either camp, it's not fair for people who are biased more toward the sensitivity side to say the pragmatic side just doesn't care or doesn't recognize the victim's status, rather they are trying to find some meaning in it.

Stated differently, I am naive enough to believe the vast super majority of people would, if given the option, push a button that would end all rape forever.  That doesn't mean just because they say something awkward or crass about a sensitive subject, even frequently, that most people don't care. 

Also, consider that if people are going to talk about a rape, they're going to comment on whatever is the least awkward aspect of it for them.  When you hear about an incident like that, your first feeling, regardless of whether you are male or female or whatever, is that feeling of helplessness that you personally can't do anything to make the situation better because it already happened.  Rape is such a horrible, personal thing, a special kind of evil, it's just damn hard to talk about.  Normal people don't like to talk about rape or murder or theft or assault or anything like that, of course they aren't good at discussing it.  People snap to the first coherent thing they can put into words rather than wrestle with that conundrum.

Rape as a crime has a lot of issues surrounding it as well.  There's a not inconsiderable number of documented cases of "rape" being called on men when the fake victim just wants something.  It's hard to quantify how often this happens because the women who make false accusations are seldom if ever punished, but incidents like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa5kQbUl5_o

Are not non-occurring.  And bear in mind, the accusation alone usually destroys the accused man's life or severely damages it because the accused doesn't get the same anonymity as the accuser (which baffles me).  For a less nuanced example, many divorce attorneys will tell female clients to say they are afraid of their soon to be ex husband sexually assaulting them, because the leverage this grants can be incredible and the penalty for saying it, even if it's false, is nothing.

This kind of thing is a serious problem because it clouds the issue so much, but it's not going away because quite frankly no one cares.  And quite frankly no one cares because it's a men's issue, and even men don't care about men's issues.  I'd rather we had a culture that looked at the issue of rape with a cold, clinical eye but wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which one fills up first.

But finally the thing I wanted to point out is that "Teach Men Not to Rape" is how dehumanizing, insulting and asinine it is.  Let's say I buy this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eD0ttBXoMvQC

And flip through it and find out that Polynesians commit theft more often than any other group.  If I started going around lambasting "Teach Polynesians Not to Steal", I would accurately be compared to Hitler.

What I find interesting about this is that some men's group in Canada got so tired of the "Teach Men Not to Rape" stuff, they started a "Don't Make False Rape Accusations" campaign for women and they were labeled a hate group for it.  Absolutely  incredible.

Again this is why it's good to let out a little steam here and there about these gendered issues but I prefer to focus more on things I can change personally, this shit gets so depressing if you think about it too long.  There are no winners here.

3okirb

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #126 on: January 31, 2015, 08:02:11 AM »
The most sexist thing I've encountered lately is this weird campaign telling me that since I'm a man I'm supposed to teach other men not to rape, because apparently men naturally go around raping people if we aren't taught not to.

I agree with that. While they're at it, why not:

1. Tell murderers not to murder people
2. Tell arsonists not to start fires
3. Tell bank robbers not to rob banks
4. Tell drug traffickers to stop
And so on.

There, you've just ended all crime! Close down the prisons! They just had NO IDEA they weren't supposed to do those things, it was all a simple misunderstanding!

Here's the thing: murder, arson, etc.: these are all unequivocally condemned in our culture. When those crimes are committed, people generally don't swarm out of the woodwork to talk about what the victim did wrong, or imply that maybe no crime was committed at all.* With rape, though? Happens every time.

It's not that I don't see the point here both sides are making, but a couple things to point out:

I've certainly heard of people who were attacked or even murdered being blamed for it.  "What were they doing, walking alone at night carrying a duffel bag full of money?"  I've heard people blame individuals and businesses for not locking their doors or using other common security procedures when they get robbed.  It's natural for people to look at these incidents and try to perform a pathology analysis on them.

I think a lot of this kind of talk goes to the idea of Dunbar's number.  If this happened for example to your sister (God forbid), your first reaction certainly wouldn't be to pathologize, but when it's someone you don't know, the empathy is less immediate, and your mind goes to the facts and circumstances because what you're thinking is "How I can prevent that terrible thing from happening to me or individuals who fit into my Dunbar set?"  I lack the moral authority and intelligence to dictate how sensitive people should be about saying things like that, but I doubt sincerely that the motivation behind statements like that is sinister. 

So while I do think that's terribly boorish to treat a horrible tragedy in someone else's life as so incidental just because you personally don't feel the sting of it, I also think it's also important people at least are thinking about how to prevent these things from happening (whether their logic holds water or not is a different matter).  Some people are going to be more sensitive to recognizing the victimhood of others, some people are going to be more resolved to preventing re-occurrence.  What results is a conflict of values which can't be terribly objective, and while it's fine imho to fall into either camp, it's not fair for people who are biased more toward the sensitivity side to say the pragmatic side just doesn't care or doesn't recognize the victim's status, rather they are trying to find some meaning in it.

Stated differently, I am naive enough to believe the vast super majority of people would, if given the option, push a button that would end all rape forever.  That doesn't mean just because they say something awkward or crass about a sensitive subject, even frequently, that most people don't care. 

Also, consider that if people are going to talk about a rape, they're going to comment on whatever is the least awkward aspect of it for them.  When you hear about an incident like that, your first feeling, regardless of whether you are male or female or whatever, is that feeling of helplessness that you personally can't do anything to make the situation better because it already happened.  Rape is such a horrible, personal thing, a special kind of evil, it's just damn hard to talk about.  Normal people don't like to talk about rape or murder or theft or assault or anything like that, of course they aren't good at discussing it.  People snap to the first coherent thing they can put into words rather than wrestle with that conundrum.

Rape as a crime has a lot of issues surrounding it as well.  There's a not inconsiderable number of documented cases of "rape" being called on men when the fake victim just wants something.  It's hard to quantify how often this happens because the women who make false accusations are seldom if ever punished, but incidents like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa5kQbUl5_o

Are not non-occurring.  And bear in mind, the accusation alone usually destroys the accused man's life or severely damages it because the accused doesn't get the same anonymity as the accuser (which baffles me).  For a less nuanced example, many divorce attorneys will tell female clients to say they are afraid of their soon to be ex husband sexually assaulting them, because the leverage this grants can be incredible and the penalty for saying it, even if it's false, is nothing.

This kind of thing is a serious problem because it clouds the issue so much, but it's not going away because quite frankly no one cares.  And quite frankly no one cares because it's a men's issue, and even men don't care about men's issues.  I'd rather we had a culture that looked at the issue of rape with a cold, clinical eye but wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which one fills up first.

But finally the thing I wanted to point out is that "Teach Men Not to Rape" is how dehumanizing, insulting and asinine it is.  Let's say I buy this book:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eD0ttBXoMvQC

And flip through it and find out that Polynesians commit theft more often than any other group.  If I started going around lambasting "Teach Polynesians Not to Steal", I would accurately be compared to Hitler.

What I find interesting about this is that some men's group in Canada got so tired of the "Teach Men Not to Rape" stuff, they started a "Don't Make False Rape Accusations" campaign for women and they were labeled a hate group for it.  Absolutely  incredible.

Again this is why it's good to let out a little steam here and there about these gendered issues but I prefer to focus more on things I can change personally, this shit gets so depressing if you think about it too long.  There are no winners here.

Great points.  Well thought out and made me think of things in new ways.  Especially the Dunbar set stuff.  You're exactly right.  When we see situations where people are harmed, we break it down internally to try and prevent it from happening to us.

PEIslander

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #127 on: January 31, 2015, 08:32:41 AM »
I had to google "roofied" to see what it means after seeing it mentioned in a few posts in this thread. Its made me realize I've lived a sheltered life.

MoneyCat

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #128 on: January 31, 2015, 12:48:49 PM »
"She was a wonderful wife and mother who could cook a mean pot of spaghetti...oh and she was a rocket scientist too."

Well, that's a judgement call isn't it? I would take someone who could cook an amazing lasagna over a rocket scientist who couldn't (I imagine there are women who feel the same - i.e. they would want a guy who could cook who wasn't in a "prestigious" field)!

Isn't one of the reasons we're all on here to separate our work lives from what we really enjoy? I have a high-paying job that is "respected" but if I died and it said "Dividendman was a great computer scientist... oh, he also gave to charity and could cook amazing food" I would be turning in my grave. I'd rather have it say "Dividendman LOVED pizza! He gave all his wealth to charity and he could cook amazing butter chicken and oh yes, he did work in the computer industry for a bit".
Yeah in this case it is a judgment call because it's in a "private" context having nothing to do with the person's job or professional skill/achievements. But I think what sister X was saying was that if it were a man, then his job and professional achievements would be the first thing written/talked about upon his death and pizza making would be second, and it would be reversed for women and that his looks and appearance would almost never be brought up.

For example, going back to the Amal Clooney example, if her clothes or looks are talked about in conjunction with being Gorgeous Georges partner and in the lime light it's probably to be expected even if she is a Human Right Lawyer/activist. But if she were up getting the Nobel Peace Prize for her Human Rights work and up on getting her accolades her looks, dress, or appearance were brought up in a public setting it would be embarrassing and humiliating.

Anyways, bottom line is that women, when in a professional setting amongst peers and/or while recieveing accolades for something they accomplished professionally,  often have comments about their appearances, clothes, hair (don't forget Hair-Gate when it comes to Hillary Clinton's hairstyle choices, etc..) when it has nothing to do with skills and professional achievements and men usually don't.

But it makes no sense that the media's obsession with women's hairstyles and fashions is called "patriarchy", because these obsessions are driven by women for women's consumption.  It all seems to be competition between women that gets really nasty sometimes.  If anything, I would label this stuff "matriarchy" and current American society seems to be full of it.

Emilyngh

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #129 on: January 31, 2015, 01:04:53 PM »
"She was a wonderful wife and mother who could cook a mean pot of spaghetti...oh and she was a rocket scientist too."

Well, that's a judgement call isn't it? I would take someone who could cook an amazing lasagna over a rocket scientist who couldn't (I imagine there are women who feel the same - i.e. they would want a guy who could cook who wasn't in a "prestigious" field)!

Isn't one of the reasons we're all on here to separate our work lives from what we really enjoy? I have a high-paying job that is "respected" but if I died and it said "Dividendman was a great computer scientist... oh, he also gave to charity and could cook amazing food" I would be turning in my grave. I'd rather have it say "Dividendman LOVED pizza! He gave all his wealth to charity and he could cook amazing butter chicken and oh yes, he did work in the computer industry for a bit".
Yeah in this case it is a judgment call because it's in a "private" context having nothing to do with the person's job or professional skill/achievements. But I think what sister X was saying was that if it were a man, then his job and professional achievements would be the first thing written/talked about upon his death and pizza making would be second, and it would be reversed for women and that his looks and appearance would almost never be brought up.

For example, going back to the Amal Clooney example, if her clothes or looks are talked about in conjunction with being Gorgeous Georges partner and in the lime light it's probably to be expected even if she is a Human Right Lawyer/activist. But if she were up getting the Nobel Peace Prize for her Human Rights work and up on getting her accolades her looks, dress, or appearance were brought up in a public setting it would be embarrassing and humiliating.

Anyways, bottom line is that women, when in a professional setting amongst peers and/or while recieveing accolades for something they accomplished professionally,  often have comments about their appearances, clothes, hair (don't forget Hair-Gate when it comes to Hillary Clinton's hairstyle choices, etc..) when it has nothing to do with skills and professional achievements and men usually don't.

But it makes no sense that the media's obsession with women's hairstyles and fashions is called "patriarchy", because these obsessions are driven by women for women's consumption.  It all seems to be competition between women that gets really nasty sometimes.  If anything, I would label this stuff "matriarchy" and current American society seems to be full of it.

All of the experiences with someone inappropriately focusing on how I look and/or my gender in a professional setting have been with men.    It was a man who introduced me at a professional conference to the audience before I gave a major talk as "a lady engineer."   It was a man who kissed my hand when I first met him as a complete stranger at a different professional conference.  Etc, etc, etc.   Although, even if women had treated me similarly b/c of my gender, that still does not mean that it is not a patriarchal at the heart of the views;   patriarchy refers to the societal norms, not the gender of the people who act them out.

Regardless, I disagree that the dismissal of a woman's professional qualifications in society in the name of focusing on her looks, motherhood, etc is driven by some kind of competition between women.   Instead, it is indeed, the patriarchal societal views regarding the appropriate and valued roles of women that lead us to subconsciously consider women through a distorted lens.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 01:15:19 PM by Emilyngh »

MoneyCat

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #130 on: January 31, 2015, 01:21:50 PM »
"She was a wonderful wife and mother who could cook a mean pot of spaghetti...oh and she was a rocket scientist too."

Well, that's a judgement call isn't it? I would take someone who could cook an amazing lasagna over a rocket scientist who couldn't (I imagine there are women who feel the same - i.e. they would want a guy who could cook who wasn't in a "prestigious" field)!

Isn't one of the reasons we're all on here to separate our work lives from what we really enjoy? I have a high-paying job that is "respected" but if I died and it said "Dividendman was a great computer scientist... oh, he also gave to charity and could cook amazing food" I would be turning in my grave. I'd rather have it say "Dividendman LOVED pizza! He gave all his wealth to charity and he could cook amazing butter chicken and oh yes, he did work in the computer industry for a bit".
Yeah in this case it is a judgment call because it's in a "private" context having nothing to do with the person's job or professional skill/achievements. But I think what sister X was saying was that if it were a man, then his job and professional achievements would be the first thing written/talked about upon his death and pizza making would be second, and it would be reversed for women and that his looks and appearance would almost never be brought up.

For example, going back to the Amal Clooney example, if her clothes or looks are talked about in conjunction with being Gorgeous Georges partner and in the lime light it's probably to be expected even if she is a Human Right Lawyer/activist. But if she were up getting the Nobel Peace Prize for her Human Rights work and up on getting her accolades her looks, dress, or appearance were brought up in a public setting it would be embarrassing and humiliating.

Anyways, bottom line is that women, when in a professional setting amongst peers and/or while recieveing accolades for something they accomplished professionally,  often have comments about their appearances, clothes, hair (don't forget Hair-Gate when it comes to Hillary Clinton's hairstyle choices, etc..) when it has nothing to do with skills and professional achievements and men usually don't.

But it makes no sense that the media's obsession with women's hairstyles and fashions is called "patriarchy", because these obsessions are driven by women for women's consumption.  It all seems to be competition between women that gets really nasty sometimes.  If anything, I would label this stuff "matriarchy" and current American society seems to be full of it.

All of the experiences with someone inappropriately focusing on how I look and/or my gender in a professional setting have been with men.    It was a man who introduced me at a professional conference to the audience before I gave a major talk as "a lady engineer."   It was a man who kissed my hand when I first met him as a complete stranger at a different professional conference.  Etc, etc, etc.   Although, even if women had treated me similarly b/c of my gender, that still does not mean that it is not a patriarchal at the heart of the views;   patriarchy refers to the societal norms, not the gender of the people who act them out.

Regardless, I disagree that the dismissal of a woman's professional qualifications in society in the name of focusing on her looks, motherhood, etc is driven by some kind of competition between women.   Instead, it is indeed, the patriarchal societal views regarding the appropriate and valued roles of women that lead us to subconsciously consider women through a distorted lens.

Well, due to matriarchy, men are trained from birth to be deferential to women and to provide them with attention and resources.  The chivalrous behavior and attention to your gender is a product of that programming.  Most women get pretty upset if guys defy the matriarchy and treat women like they would treat other men.

lizzie

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #131 on: January 31, 2015, 02:20:53 PM »
Quote
Well, due to matriarchy, men are trained from birth to be deferential to women and to provide them with attention and resources.  The chivalrous behavior and attention to your gender is a product of that programming.  Most women get pretty upset if guys defy the matriarchy and treat women like they would treat other men.

MANOSPHERE, WEEK SEVEN, DAY TWO

We lost Chauncey today. Doc wanted to sedate him—he said the bond he’d formed with the womyn was too strong, and he feared for the poor man’s sanity. But the Chief said we needed the intel, and it was useful for a while. With Chauncey’s help we were able to avoid the patrols, keep to the shadows. We re-enforced our position by littering the floor with pages of Sports Illustrated—that seems to keep them away, especially the swimsuit issue. It was a shame to part with the swimsuit issue, but there’s no time for pleasantries. This is war.

I knew Chauncey was gone when he reported hearing drum circles. Billy laughed—he didn’t understand. He said “all drums are circles, Chauncey” and looked confused when Doc told him to shut the hell up and show some respect. The Chief ordered us to put him out of his misery. I’m glad we did it when we did. He was just about to say “patriarchy.”

God have mercy on us all. He was going to say patriarchy.

...

We’re going to have to send someone out for supplies, but things are grim. Womyn are everywhere, and you can’t tell until they start talking. And if they detect you… well. Everywhere we go we see the skins of True Men pinned on the walls, left as bloody reminders to all the enslaved PoodleMen the consequences of having a set.

Dan was the last guy we sent out. He didn’t return. We told him we has going to have to undercover—he’d at least have to take off the hat and maybe shave. He refused, that poor, magnificent, proud, stiff-necked fool. He said he’d die first.

A few days later we found his hat, and the remains of that glorious, rich handlebar mustache. The Chief thinks they ate the rest.

He’s calling another meeting now. I’ll write more when I can. If this be the final words of the last bastion of Men in this hellish, estrogen-ridden world, then know that we went out fighting to the last.

-with gratitude to the writer who composed and posted this bit of brilliance as a comment on John Scalzi's blog

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/11/20/the-existential-horror-of-betaness-or-not/

gaja

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #132 on: January 31, 2015, 02:21:58 PM »
Well, due to matriarchy, men are trained from birth to be deferential to women and to provide them with attention and resources.  The chivalrous behavior and attention to your gender is a product of that programming.  Most women get pretty upset if guys defy the matriarchy and treat women like they would treat other men.

Those type of statements are very high on my list of sexist things that drive me crazy. 90 % of the men I've studied or worked with have treated me like an equal being. A few (mainly non-nordic guys) have tried to do this gentleman thing you are refering to, and it is a pain. This one Italian guy I worked with, I just had to stop cooperating with him on projects, it took too much time jumping hoops. "Could we please look at this document here, my dress and radiant face are irrelevant to the discussion about the cretaceous extinction event". "If you don't want the door smashed into your head, you shouldn't have tried to interfere in my door opening process". "Those are my boxes of rocks. Stop "helping", and get your own".

Another part of the same type of illusions, are the guys who think that women like getting "compliments" and whistles from strangers on the streets. Who gave that strange person the right to interfere in my day? And why does he think that I give a damn what he thinks about my body? The argument is usually that they "would be pleased if women gave them compliments". Well, those of my male friends who have worked as waiters and gotten assaulted (verbally and physically) by drunk women are quite clear that it was not a nice experience.


dividendman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #133 on: January 31, 2015, 02:35:42 PM »
Who gave that strange person the right to interfere in my day?

Well, depends on where you live. In the USA he gets the right from the First Amendment to the Constitution, in particular: "Congress shall make no law...  abridging the freedom of speech." Note this is one of the widest protections people have in the world. What is "hate speech" in my other countries is legal in USA.

In Canada he gets the right from the Charter of Rights and Freedoms section 2(b):  Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms... freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression..."

It's funny that people think other people DON'T have a right to interfere in their day. They absolutely do! In fact, when I lived in downtown Toronto my day was frequently interfered with by people protesting one thing or another or yelling at me to convert to their religion, etc.

When I see someone litter I frequently interfere with their day.

Now, are they asshats for messing with your day? Yes. But there is no law against being an asshat. But then, we live with this so that the civil liberties movement, and women's rights, etc. ALSO have the right to interfere with my day to get their message across.

EDIT: I noticed your tagline said you are in Norway. I'm not very familiar with Norway's Constitution but article 100 states: "There shall be freedom of expression." ... "Everyone shall be free to speak his mind frankly on the administration of the State and on any other subject whatsoever. Clearly defined limitations to this right may only be imposed when particularly weighty considerations so justify in relation to the grounds for freedom of expression."
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 02:47:56 PM by dividendman »

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #134 on: January 31, 2015, 02:39:53 PM »
Who gave that strange person the right to interfere in my day?

Well, depends on where you live. In the USA he gets the right from the First Amendment to the Constitution, in particular: "Congress shall make no law...  abridging the freedom of speech." Note this is one of the widest protections people have in the world. What is "hate speech" in my other countries is legal in USA.

In Canada he gets the right from the Charter of Rights and Freedoms section 2(b):  Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms... freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression..."

It's funny that people think other people DON'T have a right to interfere in their day. They absolutely do! In fact, when I lived in downtown Toronto my day was frequently interfered with by people protesting one thing or another or yelling at me to convert to their religion, etc.

When I see someone litter I frequently interfere with their day.

Now, are they asshats for messing with your day? Yes. But there is no law against being an asshat. But then, we live with this so that the civil liberties movement, and women's rights, etc. ALSO have the right to interfere with my day to get their message across.
Depending on where you are, and their behavior, it can be legally considered harrassment.  However, given the likelyhood of those who cat call to get violent, doing what you need to, to claim harrassment may not be a wise move legally.  Given the safety concerns that come along with this, I really think you need to not compare it to things like protests, which are normally quite non-violent and safe.

lizzie

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #135 on: January 31, 2015, 02:59:50 PM »
Quote
Well, depends on where you live. In the USA he gets the right from the First Amendment to the Constitution

Not to speak for the OP but I seriously doubt that she was asking why men who make comments to her on the street are not immediately arrested. My guess is that it was more of a rhetorical question wondering why such men fail to recognize that they are being extremely rude.

gaja

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #136 on: January 31, 2015, 03:00:09 PM »
Having the legal right to do something, doesn't give someone the moral rights. I do think it is important for a culture and society to agree on what is acceptable within the frames of normal polite behavior, and I feel strongly that catcalling should be outside that frame. We can not, and should not, ban rude behavior, but neither should we say it is ok just because it is legal.

dividendman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #137 on: January 31, 2015, 03:04:20 PM »
Depending on where you are, and their behavior, it can be legally considered harrassment.  However, given the likelyhood of those who cat call to get violent, doing what you need to, to claim harrassment may not be a wise move legally.  Given the safety concerns that come along with this, I really think you need to not compare it to things like protests, which are normally quite non-violent and safe.

I believe people should be able to say what they want regardless of how others may feel about it. Yes, there are harassment statutes, and laws against death threats etc. But as soon as you start telling people they can't talk to strangers if the stranger may be offended by the comment, I think it's a very slippery slope. If anyone believes some asshole at a construction site whistling at you or yelling "you're hot" etc. is harassment, then take it to court and watch how fast it gets thrown out.

I've had people say racial slurs right to my face, or yell them across the street, that's not harassment, me punching them in the face is assault though.

I also dispute the protest comment. Many protests have had very violent incidents, particularly in the civil rights era but even now when the KKK wants to demonstrate, and not long ago (and probably still) when homosexuals were demonstrating. In recent memory Ferguson protests were violent, etc.

Just because you don't like what someone is saying doesn't mean they don't have the right to say it.

Quote
Having the legal right to do something, doesn't give someone the moral rights. I do think it is important for a culture and society to agree on what is acceptable within the frames of normal polite behavior, and I feel strongly that catcalling should be outside that frame. We can not, and should not, ban rude behavior, but neither should we say it is ok just because it is legal.

Agree! But you asked who gave them the right :P Next time it happens do what any responsible adult would do, whip out your cellphone and video it and shame them on facebook :)

Riff

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #138 on: January 31, 2015, 03:06:42 PM »
If you abhor the catcalling, stay far, far away from Italy.  The men chase women like dogs chase cars.

dividendman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #139 on: January 31, 2015, 03:25:17 PM »
Catcalling, whistling, etc. is not a form of communication. It is just harassment.

Okie dokie! Let's fill up them jails then, what are we waiting for?


EDIT: Instead of just giving that flippant response... So what you're telling me is if I have a sign saying I want a constitutional amendment declaring "All women are sex objects, they do not have the right to vote since they are incapable, and that can be catcalled at at any time." And was yelling that at women and whistling, then that is fine since it's political speech for a political purpose and is protected, but some guy whistling is harassment? Hrm. OK. I think you said you were a lawyer in another thread so I'm sure you know more about it than me, but it seems unlikely.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 03:31:05 PM by dividendman »

gaja

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #140 on: January 31, 2015, 03:47:25 PM »
Catcalling, whistling, etc. is not a form of communication. It is just harassment.

Okie dokie! Let's fill up them jails then, what are we waiting for?


EDIT: Instead of just giving that flippant response... So what you're telling me is if I have a sign saying I want a constitutional amendment declaring "All women are sex objects, they do not have the right to vote since they are incapable, and that can be catcalled at at any time." And was yelling that at women and whistling, then that is fine since it's political speech for a political purpose and is protected, but some guy whistling is harassment? Hrm. OK. I think you said you were a lawyer in another thread so I'm sure you know more about it than me, but it seems unlikely.

For me personally, that would be more acceptable, because it would give me a ground for a discussion. Catcalling is a power play and pure harassment, since it gives the recipient no chance or ground to answer back. In fact, women have been killed for trying to verbally defend themselves.

I don't care about taking anyone to court, but would have loved to sit down face to face, one on one, and get a thorough explanation about everything they thought and said. Preferably with their parents present.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #141 on: January 31, 2015, 04:05:44 PM »
Catcalling, whistling, etc. is not a form of communication. It is just harassment.

Okie dokie! Let's fill up them jails then, what are we waiting for?


EDIT: Instead of just giving that flippant response... So what you're telling me is if I have a sign saying I want a constitutional amendment declaring "All women are sex objects, they do not have the right to vote since they are incapable, and that can be catcalled at at any time." And was yelling that at women and whistling, then that is fine since it's political speech for a political purpose and is protected, but some guy whistling is harassment? Hrm. OK. I think you said you were a lawyer in another thread so I'm sure you know more about it than me, but it seems unlikely.

For me personally, that would be more acceptable, because it would give me a ground for a discussion. Catcalling is a power play and pure harassment, since it gives the recipient no chance or ground to answer back. In fact, women have been killed for trying to verbally defend themselves.

I don't care about taking anyone to court, but would have loved to sit down face to face, one on one, and get a thorough explanation about everything they thought and said. Preferably with their parents present.
As have men, when defending women.  And this whole exchange shows a huge attitude issue.  Many men have the privilege of being unaware of safety issues women are taught as a matter of course.  Yet, men then go into situations that are very unsafe and get hurt/killed/raped and we, as a society, ignore that issue.   

dividendman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #142 on: January 31, 2015, 04:30:43 PM »
In Canada, the analytical process is the reverse: if a law is unconstitutional as applied to one person, then the appropriate remedy is a declaration that the law is invalid on its face, rather than just invalid as applied to that particular person.

Hrm, I didn't know that, interesting.

Dan_at_Home

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #143 on: January 31, 2015, 09:47:31 PM »
A part of that is I'm exercising more.  A trainer suggested I should try to add skipping rope to what I'm doing.

But I need to keep practicing with it as I'm terrible at skipping rope.  I had found a spot I thought was fine, it's on a piece of public land, a storm drainage installation, where there's a small bit of pavement to stand on.

And bear in mind, people come here all the time to jog, run, stretch, talk on their phone, etc.  Jumping rope shouldn't be "weird" when people are already using the area for similar activities.

I also do not spend more than ten minutes doing this, I know because I time myself.

I go out there one day and I'm going at it, and suddenly this cop pulls up, gets out of the patrol car and approaches me...

Apparently I'd been reported as a "man gyrating and playing with children's toys" near the school bus stop.

First of all, "gyrating?"  Look I realize a fat man jumping up and down is not attractive, but if it is anything it is hilarious entertainment.  It's nothing short of outrageous to suggest a person not engage in utilitarian human locomotion due to their unfortunate appearance.

Second of all a jump rope is something children may play with, but it's not a child's toy, especially not mine, it is a piece of exercise equipment.  I also want to point out my jump rope is not even colorful, it's a plain black weighted rope I bought at a sporting goods store.

Thank goodness the officer was a reasonable human who told me the complaint was clearly someone being ridiculous, but at his suggestion I now go to a different location to do this to prevent a repeat of this incident.  Is it a big deal, no, is it ridiculous I have to even consider this, absolutely.

This isn't an isolated happening either.  I've been asked to leave a park before too for being "unaccompanied".

LalsConstant if that is a public park and you assuming you are not breaking any of the park's rules, then you have every right to be there as anyone else.  It is a big deal.  Your tax dollars are spent to maintain that park, stick up for your rights, don't let people push around like that.
 

FunkyStickman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #144 on: February 02, 2015, 06:31:44 AM »
Yeah, looks like I opened a can of worms there a bit.  I wasn't even really talking about the in-game banter - though certainly women have been made pretty uncomfortable/unwelcome in some places with that.  I was mostly referring to the g-a-m-e-r-g-a-t-e* insanity that has been all over the internet lately, where women game designers and journalists are getting death threats and buried in vitriol and hate for expressing their opinions.  A totally different level of problem, and hugely not OK. 

There's two sides to every story... not to mention the biggest advocates against GG have been extremely shady and unscrupulous characters to start with. Double standards abound. Don't be so quick to judge.

OP: I'm one of those dads that changed diapers on a regular basis. I don't think they even *had* changing stations back when I started 18 years ago.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #145 on: February 02, 2015, 06:54:10 AM »
Yeah, looks like I opened a can of worms there a bit.  I wasn't even really talking about the in-game banter - though certainly women have been made pretty uncomfortable/unwelcome in some places with that.  I was mostly referring to the g-a-m-e-r-g-a-t-e* insanity that has been all over the internet lately, where women game designers and journalists are getting death threats and buried in vitriol and hate for expressing their opinions.  A totally different level of problem, and hugely not OK. 

There's two sides to every story... not to mention the biggest advocates against GG have been extremely shady and unscrupulous characters to start with. Double standards abound. Don't be so quick to judge.

OP: I'm one of those dads that changed diapers on a regular basis. I don't think they even *had* changing stations back when I started 18 years ago.
I'm sorry, but I must be misunderstanding you.  Are you saying that ANYTHING justifies rape and death threats?  Or that we should not judge people's actions?

LalsConstant

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #146 on: February 02, 2015, 07:11:36 AM »
A part of that is I'm exercising more.  A trainer suggested I should try to add skipping rope to what I'm doing.

But I need to keep practicing with it as I'm terrible at skipping rope.  I had found a spot I thought was fine, it's on a piece of public land, a storm drainage installation, where there's a small bit of pavement to stand on.

And bear in mind, people come here all the time to jog, run, stretch, talk on their phone, etc.  Jumping rope shouldn't be "weird" when people are already using the area for similar activities.

I also do not spend more than ten minutes doing this, I know because I time myself.

I go out there one day and I'm going at it, and suddenly this cop pulls up, gets out of the patrol car and approaches me...

Apparently I'd been reported as a "man gyrating and playing with children's toys" near the school bus stop.

First of all, "gyrating?"  Look I realize a fat man jumping up and down is not attractive, but if it is anything it is hilarious entertainment.  It's nothing short of outrageous to suggest a person not engage in utilitarian human locomotion due to their unfortunate appearance.

Second of all a jump rope is something children may play with, but it's not a child's toy, especially not mine, it is a piece of exercise equipment.  I also want to point out my jump rope is not even colorful, it's a plain black weighted rope I bought at a sporting goods store.

Thank goodness the officer was a reasonable human who told me the complaint was clearly someone being ridiculous, but at his suggestion I now go to a different location to do this to prevent a repeat of this incident.  Is it a big deal, no, is it ridiculous I have to even consider this, absolutely.

This isn't an isolated happening either.  I've been asked to leave a park before too for being "unaccompanied".

LalsConstant if that is a public park and you assuming you are not breaking any of the park's rules, then you have every right to be there as anyone else.  It is a big deal.  Your tax dollars are spent to maintain that park, stick up for your rights, don't let people push around like that.
 


It's a piece of cleared land with a storm drain facility on it.  I have since found another site with a steep incline I like to ascend so it's all moot at this point.

FunkyStickman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #147 on: February 02, 2015, 08:07:34 AM »
I'm sorry, but I must be misunderstanding you.  Are you saying that ANYTHING justifies rape and death threats?  Or that we should not judge people's actions?

You are misunderstanding me. I never said those things are okay, however, that's not the whole story, not by a long shot. By the same token, should ANYTHING justify slander, lies, doxxing, getting people fired, for simply speaking their minds?

If you want to talk about judging people's actions, we can start with Sarkeesian, Wu, McIntosh, and FemFreq, who have all not only constructed double standards and lied, but have used the actions of a few to try to silence dozens and dozens of people who simply disagree with them.

If you really think this whole stink was only about a couple of threats, you're sadly misinformed.

Gin1984

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #148 on: February 02, 2015, 08:30:41 AM »
I'm sorry, but I must be misunderstanding you.  Are you saying that ANYTHING justifies rape and death threats?  Or that we should not judge people's actions?

You are misunderstanding me. I never said those things are okay, however, that's not the whole story, not by a long shot. By the same token, should ANYTHING justify slander, lies, doxxing, getting people fired, for simply speaking their minds?

If you want to talk about judging people's actions, we can start with Sarkeesian, Wu, McIntosh, and FemFreq, who have all not only constructed double standards and lied, but have used the actions of a few to try to silence dozens and dozens of people who simply disagree with them.

If you really think this whole stink was only about a couple of threats, you're sadly misinformed.
First, I am been a gamer for years, I am aware of the entire issue, thank you.  Nothing in that issue justifies the actions that were taken.  If I ask you if those things are justified and you respond by downplaying them (just a couple of threats), and equivocating them to people simply speaking their mind, you are exactly the issue.  And part of what is being brought up here.
There entire mess started because the ex boyfriend was pissy and that opened it up to some gamers to complain about how there are back room deals.  And if it had stopped there, fine.  But it did not.  Not only was ex not truthful, which is honestly neither here nor there, it did not justify the behavior of some of that group.  And your response is justifying it.  Posting a YouTube video even if it is criticism and even if it was funded, is not an excuse for a rape or death threat.
And here is the problem, you sitting there going, just a couple of threats.  No, it is common behavior done on multiple MMOs and first person shooters.  This just brought it into the light.  This behavior happens to many female gamers, myself included.  Yes, there are great guys that will speak up, not enough but they exist.  But that does not change the common behavior.  It is not few people who do this, but maybe just a few that moved from game to reality. 
So, you answered my question quite well, I did not misunderstand you, you do excuse it. 

FunkyStickman

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Re: Sexist things that drive me crazy
« Reply #149 on: February 02, 2015, 08:35:50 AM »
So, you answered my question quite well, I did not misunderstand you, you do excuse it.

It doesn't excuse it on either side, and two wrongs don't make a right. When you get to the point where you will willingly throw innocents under the bus- on either side- to push an agenda, then we're got a problem. Namely, the people who are being hammered aren't the ones who actually made the threats.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!