Author Topic: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right  (Read 107252 times)

forummm

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SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« on: June 26, 2015, 08:44:07 AM »
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/14pdf/14-556_3204.pdf

The right to marry is a fundamental right inherent in the liberty of the person, and under the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment couples of the same-sex may not be deprived of that right and that liberty. Same-sex couples may exercise the fundamental right to marry.

The Fourteenth Amendment requires States to recognize same-sex marriages validly performed out of State. Since same-sex couplesmay now exercise the fundamental right to marry in all States, there is no lawful basis for a State to refuse to recognize a lawful same-sexmarriage performed in another State on the ground of its same-sexcharacter.


---
Also, for those nit pickers, I'm aware I was copying from the syllabus :)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 08:51:54 AM by forummm »

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2015, 08:47:26 AM »
Saw this bit of news from a friend of mine. What a great day for the US, and about time, too.

I had no idea we were even close to making this any sort of reality.

forummm

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2015, 08:51:23 AM »
Congratulations America!

I will admit to formerly being prejudiced against individuals with a same-sex orientation. I am embarrassed at my old, uninformed, and wrongheaded perspective. I have been amazed at how quickly the nation has undergone the same transformation that I had. I'm very proud of us today. We finally did something that should have been done a long time ago. But our ability to change for the better, even if stubbornly slow, is one of the best features of our nation. I know that many people are not on board with this decision yet. But I also know that those fears and prejudices will fade with time.

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The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.

― Martin Luther King Jr.

GuitarStv

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2015, 08:56:19 AM »
Did anyone really think they would rule otherwise?

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2015, 09:03:15 AM »
Did anyone really think they would rule otherwise?

I'm kind of surprised Roberts is the writer of the dissenting opinion. I really figured that he wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of history with this one.  Of course, in history he will get credit for the judgement because "his" court made the decision.

But yes, some of this court's decisions have been very questionable- so I thought that the dissenting opinion (which was basically "we aren't making a judgement about gay marriage, we are judging whether we can tell states how to define marriage") had a very good chance of being the majority opinion.

OttoVonBisquick

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2015, 09:13:14 AM »
Did anyone really think they would rule otherwise?

I'm kind of surprised Roberts is the writer of the dissenting opinion. I really figured that he wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of history with this one.  Of course, in history he will get credit for the judgement because "his" court made the decision.

But yes, some of this court's decisions have been very questionable- so I thought that the dissenting opinion (which was basically "we aren't making a judgement about gay marriage, we are judging whether we can tell states how to define marriage") had a very good chance of being the majority opinion.

Yeah, it wasn't a landslide voting, but quite a close call. And, also, ya know, we *did* used to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder not so many decades ago, and bigotry is still at large among massive amounts of the population, so it's not like they were the last ones to give in to a sweeping overwhelming movement, although it is certainly the correct decision.

trailrated

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 09:19:16 AM »
So I am a Republican who is totally for gay marriage, and I applaud the decision of the court.

I am wondering where this moves the debate (if there even can be one) in the future or at the very least for this coming election cycle amongst the Republican contenders.

Is there a point where they do not have to cater to the hard core religious right on this issue because it is already settled, or am I just being naive and hopeful.

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2015, 09:23:41 AM »
So I am a Republican who is totally for gay marriage, and I applaud the decision of the court.

I am wondering where this moves the debate (if there even can be one) in the future or at the very least for this coming election cycle amongst the Republican contenders.

Is there a point where they do not have to cater to the hard core religious right on this issue because it is already settled, or am I just being naive and hopeful.

Take a look at how Rowe V. Wade has been marginalized in many states with what many (including me) view as unconstitutional laws that intentionally limit access to healthcare for women, and you have your answer.  I think this is not the end of the discussion nor the far Right's fight against equality for everyone.

trailrated

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2015, 09:29:10 AM »
So I am a Republican who is totally for gay marriage, and I applaud the decision of the court.

I am wondering where this moves the debate (if there even can be one) in the future or at the very least for this coming election cycle amongst the Republican contenders.

Is there a point where they do not have to cater to the hard core religious right on this issue because it is already settled, or am I just being naive and hopeful.

Take a look at how Rowe V. Wade has been marginalized in many states with what many (including me) view as unconstitutional laws that intentionally limit access to healthcare for women, and you have your answer.  I think this is not the end of the discussion nor the far Right's fight against equality for everyone.

Sadly I started thinking about the same thing after I hit the "post" button. I wish there was a better outlet or group that I could identify with that is a strange mix of political beliefs that fits more with my ideals and leaves out the craziness I see in the hard core religious right.

forummm

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2015, 09:30:54 AM »
So I am a Republican who is totally for gay marriage, and I applaud the decision of the court.

I am wondering where this moves the debate (if there even can be one) in the future or at the very least for this coming election cycle amongst the Republican contenders.

Is there a point where they do not have to cater to the hard core religious right on this issue because it is already settled, or am I just being naive and hopeful.

Take a look at how Rowe V. Wade has been marginalized in many states with what many (including me) view as unconstitutional laws that intentionally limit access to healthcare for women, and you have your answer.  I think this is not the end of the discussion nor the far Right's fight against equality for everyone.

Judge Moore (Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court) has already said that prior federal court rulings on this issue do not apply to Alabama and has prohibited officials from issuing same-sex marriage licenses--in open violation of the federal court ruling. He said something like federal courts don't have any jurisdiction over Alabama. Which should be impeachible on the grounds of incompetence...

trailrated

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2015, 09:35:07 AM »
So I am a Republican who is totally for gay marriage, and I applaud the decision of the court.

I am wondering where this moves the debate (if there even can be one) in the future or at the very least for this coming election cycle amongst the Republican contenders.

Is there a point where they do not have to cater to the hard core religious right on this issue because it is already settled, or am I just being naive and hopeful.

Take a look at how Rowe V. Wade has been marginalized in many states with what many (including me) view as unconstitutional laws that intentionally limit access to healthcare for women, and you have your answer.  I think this is not the end of the discussion nor the far Right's fight against equality for everyone.

Judge Moore (Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court) has already said that prior federal court rulings on this issue do not apply to Alabama and has prohibited officials from issuing same-sex marriage licenses--in open violation of the federal court ruling. He said something like federal courts don't have any jurisdiction over Alabama. Which should be impeachible on the grounds of incompetence...

Technically it does not fully go into effect for about another three weeks
Quote
The ruling will not take effect immediately because the court gives the losing side roughly three weeks to ask for reconsideration.
However, anyone going out of their way to make it more difficult for people to do something that is (going to be) within the law is bullshit and I agree with you.

MoneyCat

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2015, 09:38:45 AM »
Congratulations America!

I will admit to formerly being prejudiced against individuals with a same-sex orientation. I am embarrassed at my old, uninformed, and wrongheaded perspective. I have been amazed at how quickly the nation has undergone the same transformation that I had. I'm very proud of us today. We finally did something that should have been done a long time ago. But our ability to change for the better, even if stubbornly slow, is one of the best features of our nation. I know that many people are not on board with this decision yet. But I also know that those fears and prejudices will fade with time.

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The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.

― Martin Luther King Jr.

I also was really homophobic when I was younger and it embarrasses me to think about it.  People grow and learn, though, and that's exactly what happened to the United States as a nation.  As much as we still struggle over issues of Civil Rights, Americans are becoming better people all the time.

forummm

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2015, 09:42:17 AM »
So I am a Republican who is totally for gay marriage, and I applaud the decision of the court.

I am wondering where this moves the debate (if there even can be one) in the future or at the very least for this coming election cycle amongst the Republican contenders.

Is there a point where they do not have to cater to the hard core religious right on this issue because it is already settled, or am I just being naive and hopeful.

Take a look at how Rowe V. Wade has been marginalized in many states with what many (including me) view as unconstitutional laws that intentionally limit access to healthcare for women, and you have your answer.  I think this is not the end of the discussion nor the far Right's fight against equality for everyone.

Judge Moore (Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court) has already said that prior federal court rulings on this issue do not apply to Alabama and has prohibited officials from issuing same-sex marriage licenses--in open violation of the federal court ruling. He said something like federal courts don't have any jurisdiction over Alabama. Which should be impeachible on the grounds of incompetence...

Technically it does not fully go into effect for about another three weeks
Quote
The ruling will not take effect immediately because the court gives the losing side roughly three weeks to ask for reconsideration.
However, anyone going out of their way to make it more difficult for people to do something that is (going to be) within the law is bullshit and I agree with you.

Just to clarify, Moore's actions were in response to a prior federal court ruling earlier this year that pertained to Alabama specifically. Moore's actions were clearly illegal. The federal court had ruled. I do not know what Moore will do going forward now that SCOTUS has ruled, further enforcing the right to marry in Alabama.

trailrated

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015, 09:44:59 AM »
So I am a Republican who is totally for gay marriage, and I applaud the decision of the court.

I am wondering where this moves the debate (if there even can be one) in the future or at the very least for this coming election cycle amongst the Republican contenders.

Is there a point where they do not have to cater to the hard core religious right on this issue because it is already settled, or am I just being naive and hopeful.

Take a look at how Rowe V. Wade has been marginalized in many states with what many (including me) view as unconstitutional laws that intentionally limit access to healthcare for women, and you have your answer.  I think this is not the end of the discussion nor the far Right's fight against equality for everyone.

Judge Moore (Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court) has already said that prior federal court rulings on this issue do not apply to Alabama and has prohibited officials from issuing same-sex marriage licenses--in open violation of the federal court ruling. He said something like federal courts don't have any jurisdiction over Alabama. Which should be impeachible on the grounds of incompetence...

Technically it does not fully go into effect for about another three weeks
Quote
The ruling will not take effect immediately because the court gives the losing side roughly three weeks to ask for reconsideration.
However, anyone going out of their way to make it more difficult for people to do something that is (going to be) within the law is bullshit and I agree with you.

Just to clarify, Moore's actions were in response to a prior federal court ruling earlier this year that pertained to Alabama specifically. Moore's actions were clearly illegal. The federal court had ruled. I do not know what Moore will do going forward now that SCOTUS has ruled, further enforcing the right to marry in Alabama.

Thanks, I should have looked into it more before posting right away. :)

Erica/NWEdible

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 09:51:46 AM »
Did anyone really think they would rule otherwise?
The last 15 years haven't been good for lovers of individual liberty in the U.S., so...you know...crap shoot. I'm so glad for this ruling.

trailrated

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2015, 09:57:41 AM »
I guess this is how I hoped it would go (minus the last sentence). The Onion is amazing.

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http://www.theonion.com/article/nations-homophobic-bigots-pack-it-50766

Cathy

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2015, 10:01:15 AM »
The legal basis for the suggestion that the decision does not take effect immediately is Supreme Court Rule 45(2), which provides that the formal mandate will not generally issue until 25 days after the decision, unless the parties agree otherwise. Rule 45(3) says that when reviewing an order of a federal court, no formal mandate will actually issue, but that Rule 45(2) otherwise applies. The exact meaning of these rules is pretty unclear in this context.

The "mandate" of a Court is a name for its formal order, directing the parties on exactly what to do in response to the decision. In Canada, the term "reasons for judgment" is sometimes used for the opinion, while the mandate itself is strictly called the "judgment". However, those terms are a bit misleading because the general rule is that (in the absence of a rule of court that says otherwise), the reasons for judgment are self-executing even if never memorialised into a formal mandate. Although that's already the default rule, some courts choose to affirm it explicitly in their rules. For example, Rule 9.6 of the Alberta Rules of Court says that the judgment of the Court comes into effect on the date of pronouncement, whether or not the mandate has been formally issued. Rule 45 of the US Supreme Court apparently takes a different approach, but the exact legal effect here is unclear.

As mentioned, there will not be any physical mandate in this case because it was a federal case and Rule 45(3) dispenses with formal mandates in such cases. However, if there were a formal mandate, it would not say anything like "every state must now licence marriages without regard to sex", because that's merely the reasoning behind the judgment; it's not the judgment itself. The mandate, if one existed, would be limited solely to: "The judgment of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals is hereby reversed." That is the only order whose issuance Rule 45(2) is arguably delaying by 25 days.

But what is the legal effect of reversing the judgment of the Sixth Circuit? To understand that, we have to take a step back and understand what the mandate of that Court would have been. The procedural history of the case is that the plaintiffs filed suit in various district courts to obtain recognition of their own marriages. The district courts ruled in favour of plaintiffs and issued various injunctions to compel such recognition. On appeal, the Sixth Circuit reversed those effects, and the sole provision of its mandate in each case would be something to the effect of: "The judgment of the district court is reversed, and the injunctions are vacated." When the theoretical Supreme Court mandate issues in 25 days, the order of the Sixth Circuit will be reversed, which means that those injunctions will be restored, and the officials in the specific states involved in the case will be compelled by court order to give recognition to marriages according to the terms of the injunction. However, that only applies to the states actually involved in the case (not every case in the country), and generally only according to the terms of the injunctions which may not include every couple in the state.

However, now that the Supreme Court has declared of the land, there is no rule that requires a state official to wait to be enjoined to act in accordance with the law. In other words, states are free to comply with the law as declared herein even if no injunction compels them to do so. The law takes effect immediately; the only thing delayed is the injunctions to specific state officials in the states actually party to the case.

Some states in the US were not parties to the case. For those states, nothing interesting will occur in 25 days. The state officials will instead decide (at any time) whether to follow the law or not. If they decide to follow it, they need not wait for the formal mandate of the Court, which has no direct relevance to their state; instead, they can follow it at any time. If they decline to follow it, affected couples will need to separately seek injunctions in courts in their own states; the mandate of the Supreme Court in this case will not have that effect by itself.

As I mentioned, the text and effect of Rule 45 is far from clear, especially as it applies to federal court review. As a result, it has been sometimes interpreted as not even delaying the effective date of the reversal of the court of appeals. For example, consider the case of Hollingsworth v. Perry, popularly known as the proposition 8 case. The district court judge in that case ordered state officials to comply with certain injunctions. That order was stayed pending review. The reasons for judgment of the Supreme Court, affirming the decision of the district judge, were released on June 26, 2013. A mere two days later on June 28, 2013, the Ninth Circuit dissolved the stay and brought the district court's injunctions into effect immediately: Perry v. Hollingworth (Doc #432). The supporters of proposition 8 filed papers in the Supreme Court asking it reverse the Ninth Circuit on the basis that since no hypothetical mandate had yet issued, the Ninth Circuit lacked authority to vacate the stay, but Kennedy J denied that motion without reasons on June 30, 2013.

In conclusion, the effect of Rule 45 is unclear.

forummm

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2015, 10:07:15 AM »
This is not your usual dry legal fodder. This is framed-on-the-wall worthy.

Quote
No union is more profound than marriage, for it embodies the highest ideals of love, fidelity, devotion, sacrifice, and family. In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than once they were. As some of the petitioners in these cases demonstrate, marriage embodies a love that may endure even past death. It would misunderstand these men and women to say they disrespect the idea of marriage. Their plea is that they do respect it, respect it so deeply that they seek to find its fulfillment for themselves. Their hope is not to be condemned to live in loneliness, excluded from one of civilization’s oldest institutions. They ask for equal dignity in the eyes of the law.

The Constitution grants them that right. The judgment of the Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit is reversed.

It is so ordered.

Gin1984

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2015, 10:08:27 AM »
So I am a Republican who is totally for gay marriage, and I applaud the decision of the court.

I am wondering where this moves the debate (if there even can be one) in the future or at the very least for this coming election cycle amongst the Republican contenders.

Is there a point where they do not have to cater to the hard core religious right on this issue because it is already settled, or am I just being naive and hopeful.

Take a look at how Rowe V. Wade has been marginalized in many states with what many (including me) view as unconstitutional laws that intentionally limit access to healthcare for women, and you have your answer.  I think this is not the end of the discussion nor the far Right's fight against equality for everyone.

Sadly I started thinking about the same thing after I hit the "post" button. I wish there was a better outlet or group that I could identify with that is a strange mix of political beliefs that fits more with my ideals and leaves out the craziness I see in the hard core religious right.
I know many former republicans in the bay or southern Ca that now claim no party, are democrats or claim independent because they did not want to be associated with the anti-gay, anti-women, anti-non-Christian group.  Most are pro-gun and fiscally conservative, but believe everyone deserves equal rights.  I actually worry that I am going to end up in the Green Party because some of the local offices are too conservative for me.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 10:12:12 AM by Gin1984 »

trailrated

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2015, 10:10:34 AM »
Thank you for the great info Cathy

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2015, 10:18:15 AM »
If you are excited about the Supreme Court's marriage ruling today, express it with tolerance to those religious minorities that believe that marriage is best expressed as a union of a man and a woman.

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2015, 10:24:30 AM »
If you are excited about the Supreme Court's marriage ruling today, express it with tolerance to those religious minorities that believe that marriage is best expressed as a union of a man and a woman.
How about if I just support your right to marry an opposite-sex person with equal fervor and we'll call it good.

forummm

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2015, 10:45:55 AM »
If you are excited about the Supreme Court's marriage ruling today, express it with tolerance to those religious minorities that believe that marriage is best expressed as a union of a man and a woman.

Yes. Or a man and his brother's wife or a man and 1000 women or a man and his prostitute or a man/god and a religious institution or a man and his 4 wives or...

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2015, 10:50:22 AM »
If you are excited about the Supreme Court's marriage ruling today, express it with tolerance to those religious minorities that believe that marriage is best expressed as a union of a man and a woman.

There is NOTHING in this ruling that says practitioners of any religion must marry same-sex couples. Churches are free to continue doing as they wish.

This says that marriage is a constitutional right, and that a STATE must recognize marriage between same sex couples.

Cathy

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2015, 10:56:32 AM »
There is NOTHING in this ruling that says practitioners of any religion must marry same-sex couples. Churches are free to continue doing as they wish.

This says that marriage is a constitutional right, and that a STATE must recognize marriage between same sex couples.

To the extent that church officials are blessed with the power of the state to give legal effect to marriages, allowing them to opt out of ratifying marriages on the basis of the gender of the participants does potentially raise constitutional concerns, although not ones discussed in the decision. I won't say those issues have a clear resolution in US constitutional law, but the arguments aren't frivolous.

The next marriage-related frontier will likely be an onslaught of state laws that purport to authorise marriage officials to decline, at their option, to grant a marriage licence on the basis of personal beliefs. Those laws are typically passed under the rubric of promoting freedom of religion, but they can have the effect of making it logistically difficult to find an official to ratify a marriage in less-progressive regions. In Marriage Commissioners Appointed Under The Marriage Act (Re), 2011 SKCA 3, the Court of Appeal for Saskatchewan considered legislation that authorised marriage officials to implement their personal religious beliefs by, at their option, refusing to perform same-sex marriages. The Court found that such legislation is contrary to the constitution of Canada. I expect that this issue will be litigated in the US in due course.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:03:27 AM by Cathy »

Sparafusile

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2015, 10:58:36 AM »
If you are excited about the Supreme Court's marriage ruling today, express it with tolerance to those religious minorities that believe that marriage is best expressed as a union of a man and a woman.

I have several points:

Point the first: What religious minorities? 83% of Americans identify as Christian. Do you think gays would have had to fight for the right to equal treatment if the opponents were only a "minority"?

Point the second: If Christians want tolerance, perhaps they should try giving some out once in a while.

Point the third: Even if you believe that marriage is "best" expressed by the union of a man and a woman, why would you want to keep people who don't feel that way from expressing their own views to the contrary? "Best" does not mean "only". "Best" is not even objective.

SunshineAZ

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2015, 11:00:09 AM »
This whole issue annoys me.  While I lean right on fiscal issues, I am definitely left leaning on social issues and the fact that the government even needs to be involved at all makes me mad.  The government should stay out of peoples bedrooms and out of women's reproductive organs.  /end rant

However with that being said, I grew up in Southern California with a mom who is a hairdresser, so I grew up around many gay people and I am happy that they can now have that right. 

Sparafusile

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2015, 11:04:45 AM »
To the extent that church officials are blessed with the power of the state to give legal effect to marriages, allowing them to opt out of ratifying marriages on the basis of the gender of the participants does potentially raise constitutional concerns, although not ones discussed in the decision.

This is something that confuses me. It's the state that grants the marriage certificate, not the priest. It's the state that recognizes the union legally. You don't even need a priest to perform the ceremony (I didn't have one when I married my wife). At what point is the marriage "ratified" by a priest? Blessed maybe, presided over yes, but nothing else. Is this different in various states?

That being said, church officials should not be forced to be a part of ceremonies they don't agree with. Is that even a question here? Do couples really ask a priest they've never met to perform a ceremony for them? Like I said, I'm confused here.

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2015, 11:09:18 AM »

To the extent that church officials are blessed with the power of the state to give legal effect to marriages, allowing them to opt out of ratifying marriages on the basis of the gender of the participants does potentially raise constitutional concerns, although not ones discussed in the decision. I won't say those issues have a clear resolution in US constitutional law, but the arguments aren't frivolous.

The priest who married me could have refused to do so if I told him I took birth control.  I'm pretty sure a state official could not have refused me a marriage license for the same reason. And the church could have refused me if I was a Muslim, so already churches can discriminate against protected classes when choosing who to marry. I had to be a member of the church, and marrying a Christian.  I really don't see this decision affecting church ceremonies.

Although if it took away religious authority to conduct civil marriages, I'd be fine with that. There are many countries where you have to get married by a JP equivalent, and then go get married in your church.  If church is truly separate from the state, it should be that way.


Do couples really ask a priest they've never met to perform a ceremony for them?
Yes, this happens. Especially if the priest has a really pretty church.  My sister got married in a church we had never been in before by a priest she met just to get married. She also priest shopped because she wanted a priest who would let her non-Catholic, but Christian, father-in-law conduct the ceremony. She was able to find one who said he could do everything but one small part of the ceremony that he felt made it official as a sacrament.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:12:13 AM by iowajes »

Cathy

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2015, 11:15:14 AM »
This is something that confuses me. It's the state that grants the marriage certificate, not the priest. It's the state that recognizes the union legally. You don't even need a priest to perform the ceremony (I didn't have one when I married my wife). At what point is the marriage "ratified" by a priest? Blessed maybe, presided over yes, but nothing else. Is this different in various states?

The area of law regarding what makes a marriage "legal" is referred to as "solemnisation of marriage". In some states, no official is required to be present to solemnise a marriage. In other states, the involvement of a state official is required. Common officials given this power include magistrates like justices of the peace. In Canada, the power is usually given by provincial law to an administrative agency.

It's possible for state law to provide that certain religious officials are authorised to solemnise marriages. For example, Arkansas Code § 9-11-215(5) provides that "[a]ny regularly ordained minister or priest of any religious sect or denomination" may solemnise a marriage. This is an act of state. No one in Arkansas is forced to have their marriage solemnised by a priest rather than a judge because the code provides other options as well, but it's an option to use a priest rather than a judge.

I should have explained this more clearly, but yes, in many jurisdictions, religious officials are granted the power of the state to solemnise marriages. The fact that applicants can choose to use somebody else will certainly be an argument that is raised in the eventual litigation on this topic, if it comes up. In my post, I did not purport to write a dissertation on the merits of this issue under US law. I did not discuss which constitutional provisions might be relevant or what the arguments would be for or against. That was intentional because it was a very brief post. With these clarifications in mind, I think my earlier post should be more clear.

Financial.Velociraptor

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2015, 11:27:34 AM »
I'm not for gay marriage. I'm AGAINST straight marriage.  I mean seriously 62% of them end in divorce. At what point do we recognize reality and admit that straight marriage, on average, does more harm than good?  Clearly straight marriage is a negative for society as a whole.  #BanStraightMarriage

bacchi

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2015, 11:28:12 AM »
Just to clarify, Moore's actions were in response to a prior federal court ruling earlier this year that pertained to Alabama specifically. Moore's actions were clearly illegal. The federal court had ruled. I do not know what Moore will do going forward now that SCOTUS has ruled, further enforcing the right to marry in Alabama.

The response to Granade's ruling was to stop issuing all marriage licenses, at least in some Alabama counties.

Cathy

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2015, 11:33:51 AM »
... so already churches can discriminate against protected classes when choosing who to marry....

This is not a particularly strong argument. For centuries, states discriminated on the basis of gender in deciding whether to licence a marriage. That lengthy history did not prevent the Court from ruling that it was unconstitutional. The constitutionality of the current marriage solemnisation laws in various states is not a simple issue in law.

Pigeon

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2015, 11:38:52 AM »
Quote
I should have explained this more clearly, but yes, in many jurisdictions, religious officials are granted the power of the state to solemnise marriages. The fact that applicants can choose to use somebody else will certainly be an argument that is raised in the eventual litigation on this topic, if it comes up. In my post, I did not purport to write a dissertation on the merits of this issue under US law. I did not discuss which constitutional provisions might be relevant or what the arguments would be for or against. That was intentional because it was a very brief post. With these clarifications in mind, I think my earlier post should be more clear.

Religious officials have always been allowed to refuse to marry people, no?  The catholic priest in the church in which I was raised refused to marry my sister to her Jewish husband because he wouldn't promise to raise any kids catholic.  Likewise, he wouldn't marry my divorced brother to my divorced sister in law (neither had annulments).  LDS bishops aren't forced to marry Muslims, etc.

How is this any different?

MoneyCat

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2015, 11:39:51 AM »


Point the second: If Christians want tolerance, perhaps they should try giving some out once in a while.

Christians are extremely tolerant compared to other religions.  You'll notice that the typical Christian doesn't burn down Temples and Mosques.  Christians don't round up people of other religions and stone them to death in the street.  I understand that you apparently disagree with certain aspects of certain Christian denominations' beliefs, but let's be honest here.

Mississippi Mudstache

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2015, 11:41:17 AM »
Wow, what a great two days for the Supreme Court. This ruling doesn't affect me in the slightest, which is precisely why it had to pass. Gay marriage bans don't affect anyone except those who are discriminated against. Can't wait to see the wailing and gnashing of teeth of my conservative bigoted friends on Facebook this evening.

Cathy

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2015, 11:44:04 AM »
Religious officials have always been allowed to refuse to marry people, no?  The catholic priest in the church in which I was raised refused to marry my sister to her Jewish husband because he wouldn't promise to raise any kids catholic.  Likewise, he wouldn't marry my divorced brother to my divorced sister in law (neither had annulments).  LDS bishops aren't forced to marry Muslims, etc.

How is this any different?

First of all, I'm not so sure you are right about some of these claims. Most or all states have generic statutory laws that restrict discrimination in the provision of services to the general public, and that applies to solemnising marriages. Some but not all states provide religious exceptions. Whether a given priest refusing to marry a given couple for a given reason is legal in a given jurisdiction is not a question has any easy or single answer in the US.

Secondly, even if you were right, then my post above would apply.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 11:54:47 AM by Cathy »

sol

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2015, 11:44:36 AM »


Point the second: If Christians want tolerance, perhaps they should try giving some out once in a while.

Christians are extremely tolerant compared to other religions. 

Oooh, let's make a list of all the ways this is wrong.

I'll start:  "other religions" is a very broad category, one that includes many religions that are far more tolerant than Christianity.  Maybe you meant to say "compared to some religions"?

GuitarStv

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2015, 11:58:21 AM »
Christians are extremely tolerant compared to other religions.  You'll notice that the typical Christian doesn't burn down Temples and Mosques.  Christians don't round up people of other religions and stone them to death in the street.  I understand that you apparently disagree with certain aspects of certain Christian denominations' beliefs, but let's be honest here.

Christians in Uganda lobbied to give the death penalty to gay people for y'know, being gay.  Christians made up close to 100% of the IRA which was responsible for bombing churches.  The NLFT is a Christian terrorist group operating in India right now.  Let's not pretend that holding a cross somehow makes you unique or better than all other humans.  (It doesn't make you worse either.)  Every group of people has a few assholes.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 12:00:07 PM by GuitarStv »

sol

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2015, 11:59:44 AM »


Point the second: If Christians want tolerance, perhaps they should try giving some out once in a while.

Christians are extremely tolerant compared to other religions. 

Oooh, let's make a list of all the ways this is wrong.

I'll start:  "other religions" is a very broad category, one that includes many religions that are far more tolerant than Christianity.  Maybe you meant to say "compared to some religions"?

Can I go again?  I know I'm out of turn but it's such a looong list.

Christians absolutely DO still burn down temples and mosques.  Mosque arsons happen in the USA several times per year, without even counting Ireland or the middle east or Africa.  Google it.

Plus there's that whole Library of Alexandria burning by Christians, arguably the single grratest setback to human progress ever perpetrated by anyone.  Thanks Christians!

Lest you claim that not ALL Christians would commit such crimes, I might preemptively remind you that most Muslims are also upstanding and law abiding culturally tolerant members of modern society.  Jews too.  I don't think we even need to talk about Shintoists or Hindus it Buddhists.

I'm a red panda

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2015, 12:00:56 PM »

Christians are extremely tolerant compared to other religions.  You'll notice that the typical Christian doesn't burn down Temples and Mosques.  Christians don't round up people of other religions and stone them to death in the street.

I don't believe these actions are -typical- of any other religion either.

I'm a red panda

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2015, 12:02:20 PM »

This is not a particularly strong argument. For centuries, states discriminated on the basis of gender in deciding whether to licence a marriage. That lengthy history did not prevent the Court from ruling that it was unconstitutional. The constitutionality of the current marriage solemnisation laws in various states is not a simple issue in law.

States did this, and it was unconstitutional. Churches are NOT states.

forummm

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2015, 12:02:45 PM »


Point the second: If Christians want tolerance, perhaps they should try giving some out once in a while.

Christians are extremely tolerant compared to other religions.  You'll notice that the typical Christian doesn't burn down Temples and Mosques.  Christians don't round up people of other religions and stone them to death in the street.  I understand that you apparently disagree with certain aspects of certain Christian denominations' beliefs, but let's be honest here.

Yes, let's be honest here. Does the "typical" [fill in the blank religious member] burn down temples and mosques?

There are some pretty evil people in the world that claim to be Muslim (who knows if that's a correct claim) that commit hideous acts of murder. There are some pretty evil people in the world that claim to be Christian (who knows if that's a correct claim) that commit hideous acts of murder. In both cases, the number of these people is far less than a hundredth of a percent of the billion+ people that claim affiliation with each of those two religions. So, probably not "typical" then.

sol

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2015, 12:04:55 PM »


Point the second: If Christians want tolerance, perhaps they should try giving some out once in a while.

Christians are extremely tolerant compared to other religions. 

Oooh, let's make a list of all the ways this is wrong.

I'll start:  "other religions" is a very broad category, one that includes many religions that are far more tolerant than Christianity.  Maybe you meant to say "compared to some religions"?

And has anyone else noted that while we're arguing about which religion is most hateful, the atheists and agnostics and  nones are sitting back smugly smiling to themselves? 

In the era of internet and space travel and gay marriage, why are we talking about which group of made up superstitions causes the most harm when the obvious answer is "all of them, when compared to not believing in any of that bigoted bullshit."

Sparafusile

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2015, 12:06:31 PM »
Point the second: If Christians want tolerance, perhaps they should try giving some out once in a while.

Christians are extremely tolerant compared to other religions.  You'll notice that the typical Christian doesn't burn down Temples and Mosques.  Christians don't round up people of other religions and stone them to death in the street.  I understand that you apparently disagree with certain aspects of certain Christian denominations' beliefs, but let's be honest here.

I realize that many Christians are very tolerant - most in fact are wonderful people. People in general are wonderful people, regardless of faith. If you yourself feel that you are tolerant then I wont doubt it.

Since you brought it up however, let's look at some of the atrocities committed in history by the tolerant Christians. I'm sure we could come up with an equally long list of atrocities for all religions.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

Add to the list the fact that some Christians refuse to allow any two people to marry based on their sexual orientation because their beliefs don't allow it. That's a textbook definition of intolerance. I'm very happy to be on the side of fairness, love, and equality.

forummm

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2015, 12:11:38 PM »
People are flooding Twitter saying that since same-sex marriage is legal in the US, they are moving to Canada. Boy are they going to be surprised when they get there...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/its-legal-there#.kwmenzVn2

Maybe Saudi Arabia is a better destination.

GuitarStv

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2015, 12:16:06 PM »
I figure they'll all come screaming back when they hear that one of our major parties is *gasp* Liberal. . .

This assumes that they somehow get through the border with all of their concealed weapons.

Sparafusile

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2015, 12:17:29 PM »
This is the vocal minority you are hearing. Thankfully, most people are more liberal than that. And if they're serious then all I can say is good riddance. Once the millennials assume power in the country then this will become a non-issue just as antislavery and women voting has become a non-issue.

Kris

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2015, 12:25:45 PM »
People are flooding Twitter saying that since same-sex marriage is legal in the US, they are moving to Canada. Boy are they going to be surprised when they get there...

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/its-legal-there#.kwmenzVn2

Maybe Saudi Arabia is a better destination.

God, if they think it's bad *here*, imagine what a living hell it's going to be when they go to Canada, realize that same-sex marriage is legal there, too, and that they'll also have to give up most of their firearms and put up with high-quality, socialized health care.  The horror!!!

dycker1978

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Re: SCOTUS rules same sex marriage is constitutional right
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2015, 12:27:36 PM »
I think that this is an awesome ruling, and really about time that it happened in the USA.  On the point of churches being able to refuse marriages, you are not taking into consideration of one critical point.

Would you want to get married by someone who doesn't even acknowledge that you exist?  The answer is no.  I think that this will make this a non issue.

I am not sure how discriminating against any person can be in anyone religious beliefs any how, but that is another subject all together.