Racist, Sexist, and Xenophobic

[bananarama]

I am also worried about the polarization of our country. I fear I'm part of it, since I've been basically avoiding family I know voted for Trump. I worked hard to recover these relationships, and now this formless sense of betrayal (if I don't manage to get over myself) might put it all to waste. I'm aware I'm kind of overwrought over the whole thing, it's a work in progress.

The difficulty I have in discussing issues of equality and fair treatment (or anything) is this: inevitably it gets derailed into some semantic bullshit and dies. How do you have a discussion when you can't even agree on what words mean, what constitutes a Right, or even what sources you can trust?

I want to find some middle ground. And I think there is middle ground, albeit largely in practical matters of governance on the whole. Only, people don't vote on pragmatic shit, they barely vote at all. So we all get a bunch of ideologues voted in by fanatics, and no one can unbend themselves long enough to pass SIMPLE things like funding our goddamn infrastructure.

I honestly wanted Trump to crash and burn, for the Republican party to die, and for something better to grow out of its ashes. We need a functional Republican party to cooperate with a functional Democratic party for the betterment of all. We didn't need a populist who roused up all our barely buried -isms, pitted us against one another, promised shit that's unlikely to ever happen, and who might probably ruin our international standing.

I get not wanting to be called an -ist. But seriously, if everyone you see is an ass it's probably you. If everyone calls you the ass, it's still probably you.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

What I have said is that he's the kind of misogynist to do that to his female employees and not the kind of misogynist that works tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights.

I think that's a level of nuance that's completely lost on most of the left. There is a distinct difference between a boor who speaks to (or even touches) women inappropriately (Trump), and a patriarchal ideologue who believes based on religious convictions that women belong in a subservient role and don't deserve  bodily autonomy (Pence). Of course, it's next to impossible to defend Trump, given that he lied unequivocally about the nature of abortion ("In the ninth month, you can take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb of the mother just prior to the birth of the baby!") for political capital. I still don't believe for a second that he actually thinks that's true. He's not dangerous in the sense that he "works tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights", but in the sense that he has no qualms about whipping up the furor of those who do for personal gain.

You don't think so?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/05/11/trump-scotus-nominee-overturn-roe-v-wade/84223512/

Are you still looking at his campaign rhetoric for evidence of his actual personal opinions or his plans for governance? I'm not saying Trump won't appoint a Supreme Court nominee who seeks to overturn Roe v. Wade - of course he might - but I don't believe for a second that he has any personal moral opposition to abortion. Note the independent clause immediately following the prose that you highlighted if you want to know why I believe he's dangerous: "he has no qualms about whipping up the furor of those who do [work tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights] for personal gain."

[MrMoogle]

I honestly wanted Trump to crash and burn, for the Republican party to die, and for something better to grow out of its ashes. We need a functional Republican party to cooperate with a functional Democratic party for the betterment of all.

I honestly wanted Hillary to crash and burn, for the Democratic party to die, and for something better to grow out of its ashes. We need a functional Democratic party to cooperate with a functional Republican party for the betterment of all.
Fixed it for you :)

I honestly don't want the Democratic party to die.  I would love if both parties changed toward each other though.  It would be nice to start two new parties, but that is a fantasy.  I'm not happy with the Republican party, which is why I call myself a conservative, and not a Republican.  While there's many things I like on the Democratic side, there are too many things I disagree with.

[mm1970]

I don't believe for a second that he has any personal moral opposition to abortion.

I don't either, but it doesn't matter, really, if that's who he appoints to the SC.  It has the same underlying effect as someone who tirelessly works to repeal Roe v. Wade for decades.

[Lyssa]

What I have said is that he's the kind of misogynist to do that to his female employees and not the kind of misogynist that works tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights.

I think that's a level of nuance that's completely lost on most of the left. There is a distinct difference between a boor who speaks to (or even touches) women inappropriately (Trump), and a patriarchal ideologue who believes based on religious convictions that women belong in a subservient role and don't deserve  bodily autonomy (Pence). Of course, it's next to impossible to defend Trump, given that he lied unequivocally about the nature of abortion ("In the ninth month, you can take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb of the mother just prior to the birth of the baby!") for political capital. I still don't believe for a second that he actually thinks that's true. He's not dangerous in the sense that he "works tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights", but in the sense has no qualms about whipping up the furor of those who do for personal gain.

You don't think so?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/05/11/trump-scotus-nominee-overturn-roe-v-wade/84223512/

I am aware he picked up the topic along the way to please a certain group of voters. I do not believe he gives so much as a rat's ass about fetuses. When you see the religious right 'talk' about abortion their faces are all red and they would even sacrifice voter and power not to have to sell out regarding that topic. Trump does not care. He might still appoint a pro-life SCOTUS. Or he might not because other things seem more important to him when the time comes.

[Turkey Leg]

As far as I can tell, the crazies at his rallies and the loud voices on twitter that support him, are less than 1% of his voters.  The squeaky wheel gets the grease.  Those who shout the loudest and the most insane get all the focus. 

The biggest crazy at a Trump rally is Trump.

[Mariposa]

What I have said is that he's the kind of misogynist to do that to his female employees and not the kind of misogynist that works tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights.

I think that's a level of nuance that's completely lost on most of the left. There is a distinct difference between a boor who speaks to (or even touches) women inappropriately (Trump), and a patriarchal ideologue who believes based on religious convictions that women belong in a subservient role and don't deserve  bodily autonomy (Pence). Of course, it's next to impossible to defend Trump, given that he lied unequivocally about the nature of abortion ("In the ninth month, you can take the baby and rip the baby out of the womb of the mother just prior to the birth of the baby!") for political capital. I still don't believe for a second that he actually thinks that's true. He's not dangerous in the sense that he "works tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights", but in the sense has no qualms about whipping up the furor of those who do for personal gain.

I apologize to you, Lyssa, for misrepresenting what you wrote: that some types of misogyny are less harmful than others, not that some forms of misogyny are completely harmless. MM is right: I completely fail to appreciate that nuance. To me, the boor who feels it's his right to grope women without their consent is a different (non-religious) flavor than the patriarchal ideologue, not necessarily less harmful.

If I had to work under a boss who felt it was his right to slap me in the butt, it would make me extremely uncomfortable, and I would experience it as an exercise of power and sexual harassment. A slightly different example: two young attorneys starting out, one a woman and the other a man. Their boss slaps the female junior attorney on the butt, makes comments about her body, and asks her to bring them all coffee on a daily basis. He invites the junior male attorney to play golf with him on the weekends and discusses his most important cases with him when they do so.

That, to me, is "old boy school" type of misogyny, and I don't see how it's less harmful in perpetuating gender hierarchies.

[Lyssa]

I apologize to you, Lyssa, for misrepresenting what you wrote: that some types of misogyny are less harmful than others, not that some forms of misogyny are completely harmless. MM is right: I completely fail to appreciate that nuance. To me, the boor who feels it's his right to grope women without their consent is a different (non-religious) flavor than the patriarchal ideologue, not necessarily less harmful.

If I had to work under a boss who felt it was his right to slap me in the butt, it would make me extremely uncomfortable, and I would experience it as an exercise of power and sexual harassment. A slightly different example: two young attorneys starting out, one a woman and the other a man. Their boss slaps the female junior attorney on the butt, makes comments about her body, and asks her to bring them all coffee on a daily basis. He invites the junior male attorney to play golf with him on the weekends and discusses his most important cases with him when they do so.

That, to me, is "old boy school" type of misogyny, and I don't see how it's less harmful in perpetuating gender hierarchies.

Apology accepted.

To me something very ugly on the face of it is most always easier to fight then something comparable which might pass as reasonable or even caring, slowly trickling into legislation for decades. Just look at Germany's very restrictive rules surrounding IVF... all build on the assumption that a zygote is a person and women are not capable of making responsible decisions. Will take decades to revoke. Easier to throw out some official who won't keep his hands to himself.

[Driko]

These are the exact people we liberals need to stop moralizing at. We need to speak calmly, and listen quietly, and think deeply. We must fix the slights and divisions, and see what sort of compromises can be reached on the issues we can't agree on. We need to woo these voters with honest attention.

Seriously?

Get back to me when they stop flying the Confederate flag.  Until then, I'm happy letting bigots be bigots without giving them too much of my compassion. 

There are genuinely evil people in this country who don't even know it, and we don't do them or anyone else any favors by pretending to overlook it.

Do you live in the deep south? Cause I cant remember the last time I saw a rebel flag. The confederate flag was once a flag of my city and it was voted (largely by white southerners) down. Also, I am not saying there are not white racists in my city because there are, but I have also met my fair share of racists from all races. As far as political categories, I think there are just as many bigots on the liberal side as there are on the republican side. Personally, I long for a day when everyone is moderate and we learn to effectively communicate with each other. 

[MasterStache]

These are the exact people we liberals need to stop moralizing at. We need to speak calmly, and listen quietly, and think deeply. We must fix the slights and divisions, and see what sort of compromises can be reached on the issues we can't agree on. We need to woo these voters with honest attention.

Seriously?

Get back to me when they stop flying the Confederate flag.  Until then, I'm happy letting bigots be bigots without giving them too much of my compassion. 

There are genuinely evil people in this country who don't even know it, and we don't do them or anyone else any favors by pretending to overlook it.

Do you live in the deep south? Cause I cant remember the last time I saw a rebel flag. The confederate flag was once a flag of my city and it was voted (largely by white southerners) down. Also, I am not saying there are not white racists in my city because there are, but I have also met my fair share of racists from all races. As far as political categories, I think there are just as many bigots on the liberal side as there are on the republican side. Personally, I long for a day when everyone is moderate and we learn to effectively communicate with each other.

I live in the Midwest and see them quite often. And quite often accompanied with a Trump/Pence sticker. I was born in a small rural town outside of the city I live in now. Whenever I visit my family still living there, there is a guy who parks in an abandoned gas station right off the highway exit and sells/gives away Trump memorabilia along with confederate flags. Both are plastered all over his van.

I certainly see it more often outside of the city in more rural towns. But it isn't confined to the deep south.

[SomedayStache]

I see rebel flags very regularly.  Often as a large window sticker on the back window of a truck.  Less often as an actual flag being flown from the bed of a truck. 

It's always been trucks - I have no bias against trucks having owned numerous trucks myself in the past. ;)

[bananarama]

I honestly wanted Trump to crash and burn, for the Republican party to die, and for something better to grow out of its ashes. We need a functional Republican party to cooperate with a functional Democratic party for the betterment of all.

I honestly wanted Hillary to crash and burn, for the Democratic party to die, and for something better to grow out of its ashes. We need a functional Democratic party to cooperate with a functional Republican party for the betterment of all.
Fixed it for you :)

I honestly don't want the Democratic party to die.  I would love if both parties changed toward each other though.  It would be nice to start two new parties, but that is a fantasy.  I'm not happy with the Republican party, which is why I call myself a conservative, and not a Republican.  While there's many things I like on the Democratic side, there are too many things I disagree with.

Die might have been too strong a word - I more want a secular and socially liberal yet fiscally sensible pro-science party that isn't ridiculous. :) So... a unicorn. I personally call myself a Liberal. I like some things about the Republican party, but they're too dismissive of science, too hysterical about taxes, and too involved with Christianity. 

I do feel you about switching up the dialogue though - I imagine just about everything you could say about either party could be turned around and be pointed back at the other. I kind of knew that, but I need to do a better job keeping it at the forefront of my mind when discussing this stuff.

I just can't seem to get past the fact that this isn't the America I thought it was. I'm completely flabbergasted. I thought decency would win - that people would see Trumps inability to control himself and his complete disregard for civility and they would weigh that against his potential to do harm and then they'd vote for anyone else. This isn't so much my team losing as it is finding out that you've been both terribly naïve and also somehow not pessimistic enough.

I see rebel flags very regularly.  Often as a large window sticker on the back window of a truck.  Less often as an actual flag being flown from the bed of a truck. 

It's always been trucks - I have no bias against trucks having owned numerous trucks myself in the past. ;)

I also see confederate flags fairly often. Not necessarily outside homes, but I might have a relative who might have hung one in his living room for awhile. Thankfully that stopped, but it's still pretty disheartening.

[sol]

I just can't seem to get past the fact that this isn't the America I thought it was. I'm completely flabbergasted. I thought decency would win - that people would see Trumps inability to control himself and his complete disregard for civility and they would weigh that against his potential to do harm and then they'd vote for anyone else. This isn't so much my team losing as it is finding out that you've been both terribly naïve and also somehow not pessimistic enough.

Many of us feel this way, I think.  Turns out America is pretty willing to overlook some racism and some pussy grabbing to vote for someone with zero experience, just to shake things up and see what happens.  Some people think America has come too far to fast, and they voted to take a step backwards.

If it's any consolation, try to remember that a majority of American voters think like you and me, not like him.  But our electoral system was deliberating designed to enshrine the bigoted attitudes of our forefathers and the white rural voters they represented, and 200 years later we're still dealing with the consequences of those decisions.

Approximately 30% of registered voters chose Trump in 2016. They are not even close to a majority of us.  By contrast, approximately 47% of registered voters chose Obama in 2008.  America is not quite as ugly as it appears right now.

[Metric Mouse]

I just can't seem to get past the fact that this isn't the America I thought it was. I'm completely flabbergasted. I thought decency would win - that people would see Trumps inability to control himself and his complete disregard for civility and they would weigh that against his potential to do harm and then they'd vote for anyone else. This isn't so much my team losing as it is finding out that you've been both terribly naïve and also somehow not pessimistic enough.

Many of us feel this way, I think.  Turns out America is pretty willing to overlook some racism and some pussy grabbing to vote for someone with zero experience, just to shake things up and see what happens.  Some people think America has come too far to fast, and they voted to take a step backwards.

If it's any consolation, try to remember that a majority of American voters think like you and me, not like him.  But our electoral system was deliberating designed to enshrine the bigoted attitudes of our forefathers and the white rural voters they represented, and 200 years later we're still dealing with the consequences of those decisions.

Approximately 30% of registered voters chose Trump in 2016. They are not even close to a majority of us.  By contrast, approximately 47% of registered voters chose Obama in 2008.  America is not quite as ugly as it appears right now.

It can be hard on people when minority viewpoints they are used to dismissing are brought to their attention. I hope that both sides of the issue can come together to work on positive changes in society, with respectful compromise from all sides.

That's probably too much to asking considering people want to fuckin' secede and riot rather than understand and respect (if disagree with) another's viewpoint, but then I am probably still a little naïve as well.

[Northwestie]

I'm quite flummoxed myself on this result as well.  I live in the city now but have lived in the boonies and spend a lot of time out there for work.  Unfortunately I'd also have to say there is this undercurrent of -- I don't know what to call it - hate, rebellion, resentment - against education.

It used to be that you - as a factory worker, janitor, welder, strove to make some money and send your kid to college.  You didn't have an education but you had aspirations that your kid would and they could grow up to be a doctor, lawyer, physicist, or teacher.  I'm definitely seeing an undercurrent of resentment manifesting itself as sticking ones head in the sand and doubling down on NOT moving up.  If it was good enough for my Pa.......

I don't get it.  The world is changing -  what a shock!  It always has been and always will be.  If you want to keep up education or technical training is mandatory.

[SomedayStache]

I just can't seem to get past the fact that this isn't the America I thought it was. I'm completely flabbergasted. I thought decency would win - that people would see Trumps inability to control himself and his complete disregard for civility and they would weigh that against his potential to do harm and then they'd vote for anyone else. This isn't so much my team losing as it is finding out that you've been both terribly naïve and also somehow not pessimistic enough.

THIS.  I still feel like I'm in shock as I walk through the world.  I look at my co-workers and wonder if they voted for Trump and how they rationalized it to themselves. 

[MrMoogle]

Approximately 30% of registered voters chose Trump in 2016. They are not even close to a majority of us.  By contrast, approximately 47% 53% of registered voters chose Obama in 2008.  America is not quite as ugly as it appears right now.

FTFY, it was 53% of voters, so less than that of registered voters.  2008 had about 10m more voters than this year, so it's not as big of a drop as Trump had.

I'm quite flummoxed myself on this result as well.  I live in the city now but have lived in the boonies and spend a lot of time out there for work.  Unfortunately I'd also have to say there is this undercurrent of -- I don't know what to call it - hate, rebellion, resentment - against education.

It used to be that you - as a factory worker, janitor, welder, strove to make some money and send your kid to college.  You didn't have an education but you had aspirations that your kid would and they could grow up to be a doctor, lawyer, physicist, or teacher.  I'm definitely seeing an undercurrent of resentment manifesting itself as sticking ones head in the sand and doubling down on NOT moving up.  If it was good enough for my Pa.......

I don't get it.  The world is changing -  what a shock!  It always has been and always will be.  If you want to keep up education or technical training is mandatory.

Education seems to be a low priority for many people.  I'm not sure it's just rural.

[sol]

FTFY, it was 53% of voters, so less than that of registered voters.

You're right, it was 47% of registered voters in 08.  I was right the first time, and then incorrectly edited it, so I went and changed it back.

I think the point remains, though.  Trump got a much smaller share of registered voters in 16 than did Obama in 08. Hillary got slightly more than that, but the distribution of those votes resulted in her decisive electoral defeat despite more people voting for her than for Trump.

I think we should all remember that, when we feel ashamed that our country voted for such a candidate. More of us voted for Clinton than voted for Trump.

[Northwestie]

Education seems to be a low priority for many people.  I'm not sure it's just rural.

That may be - and I only have my limited experience - but what I see is that here in Seattle the folks without education - construction trades, shipwrights, shop owners - all are banging along quite fine and from the results appear to have voted for Clinton.  The rural counties overwhelmingly went for Trump. 

Interestingly - suburbs that went for Romney also overwhelmingly went for Clinton this go-around.

[DavidAnnArbor]

As awful as this election is, it just feels like redux 1980 with Reagan, 2000 with George W. Bush. Republicans used racism, homophobia, nationalistic feelings, and xenophobia to rile up the deplorables and wannabes to turn up at the polls.
The shock of Trump's win is that our country was on the verge of potentially solving climate change. Minor tweaks to Obamacare would have resolved many of its problems. Government funded research on healthcare outcomes was on the verge of bending the Medicare cost curve - thanks to the efforts of Obama/Democrats. So much is at stake here. Trump voters are so heedless towards these issues - and voted for a candidate who would bring back their non-existent jobs back - no effort on their part however to change anything in their lives (what could be more anti-Mustachian in philosophy?).

[former player]

Education seems to be a low priority for many people.  I'm not sure it's just rural.

That may be - and I only have my limited experience - but what I see is that here in Seattle the folks without education - construction trades, shipwrights, shop owners - all are banging along quite fine and from the results appear to have voted for Clinton.  The rural counties overwhelmingly went for Trump. 

Interestingly - suburbs that went for Romney also overwhelmingly went for Clinton this go-around.

Construction trades (at the skilled end such as carpenters, plumbers, electricians and so on), shipwrights and shop owners are not "folks without education".  They may not have college degrees, but that is something different.

[caracarn]

I come at this from a slightly different slant.  I like to watch Stephen Colbert because I find he mixes real information in well to get people to think.  On his Showtime Election night special he cited a Pew Research study and indicated something like 51% of Democrats and 49% of Republicans are "terrified" of the policies of the other party.

I think this is the challenge with this division.  I've been around for a while, but never have I been to the point of saying I was "terrified" of the policies of the other side.  Disagree with?  Have issues with? Might go a different way? Might change it a bit? Absolutely, but terrified?  Never.  I think social media has personalized everything.  Forums like this allow people to find like minded individuals much more easily and then band together and create a feeding frenzy of paranoia that drives people to be "terrified" of a different way of doing things. 

It was like a colleague asked my wife at work the other day, "When was the last time anything a President did actually impact your life directly?"  As she tossed out ideas, he deftly pointed out that all those things are really enacted into legislation by Congress, so the impacting force is really Congress.  Therefore if we have issues with what happens in our life, we need to change our Congresspeople not our President.   We then polarize ourselves to the point of being terrified.  I have several family members that also voted for Trump and in some cases they did it for these divisive reasons because they think it would be better without immigrants (even though they were immigrants themselves 40 years ago).  I point out the absurdity of the points they make and that a lot of what is proposed the President has no direct authority to make happen.  I, like others in this thread, found myself unable to stay calm and rational and started screaming at family members in frustration because they had bought into fake news and made up points.  I think this is the impact of the social media circle and it will only get worse.  I'm not sure there is a way to put the genie back in the bottle, so I am preparing for a steeper and steeper descent with each election as it will only get easier and easier to gather like minded people into groups and feed on each other's worries.

[sol]

because they had bought into fake news and made up points.  I think this is the impact of the social media

In my own personal analysis of this election, this is the crux.  I think you've identified the key message of the entire election.

Donald Trump got approximately 30% of registered voters to support him.  That's less than Clinton got, and about the same number of total votes that McCain and Romney each got, despite 50 million voters being added to the rolls since 2008.

Trump didn't grow the big tent.  He didn't attract any new voters, and he didn't appeal to a majority of Americans.  What he DID do was make sure that Clinton got way fewer votes than Obama did.

I think the story of this election isn't that Trump got more support than Clinton did (because be didn't) but that Clinton got less support than Obama did.  The republican vote total didn't change, but the democratic vote total shrank.

Why did it shrink?  It might have something to do with the end of the voters rights act or the passage of Citizens United, but those are probably smaller contributors.  It's probably partly due to her being a less charismatic candidate than Obama, but even that isn't the key.  I think the key is the brutally effective destruction of Clinton as a person by the alternative media.

Even on this forum, people keep telling me how Clinton had to be stopped.  She's supposedly a criminal mastermind and a literal traitor to her country, despite never having been even charged with a crime or settled a lawsuit (unlike Trump), she's morally bereft (unlike the man who cheated on all of his wives), she's too sickly and old (trump is older), her foundation is corrupt (despite squeaky clean open books, unlike the trump foundation).  All of these lies came from alternative media sources, and they were effective at suppressing democratic voter turnout in a few key states.  They didn't have to sway a majority of the nation, just a few folks in enough states to secure an electoral victory.

Alternative news sources lied to enough people (emails, health, foundation,etc), in a few key places, to suppress democratic voter turnout.  They didn't bring in any new R voters, they didn't have to convince anyone to change parties, they just had to make people unhappy with Clinton as a person, even though the majority still supported her policies.  They effectively used social media to do it.

Most of the country still voted for Clinton.  Trump still gets to be president, because republicans selectively depressed voter turnout with character assassination.

It's a theory, anyway.

[scottish]

I think you folks should let it go.   The election is over.   The Republican machine definitely had a lot of influence on the results.   It's too bad the US populace is willing to accept it, but there you have it.

Trump will hopefully learn what the job's all about over the next year and step up.    He's already starting to look tired in the video clips I'm seeing, and he hasn't assembled a cabinet, let alone a staff yet.     The world has to give him a chance now.

[rosaz]

What I have said is that he's the kind of misogynist to do that to his female employees and not the kind of misogynist that works tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights.

I think that's a level of nuance that's completely lost on most of the left. There is a distinct difference between a boor who speaks to (or even touches) women inappropriately (Trump), and a patriarchal ideologue who believes based on religious convictions that women belong in a subservient role and don't deserve  bodily autonomy (Pence).

To each their own, but I'd rather have to drive 200 miles each way for an abortion once in my life, than have my ass grabbed semi-regularly by men I find repellent.

Probably I'm spoiled, what with living in Massachusetts and knowing that overturning Roe v Wade wouldn't affect my reproductive options in the slightest, but I doubt even Pence could set women back as far as Trump has already done, by moving sexual assault ever-so-slightly back towards the mainstream.

[bananarama]

It was like a colleague asked my wife at work the other day, "When was the last time anything a President did actually impact your life directly?"  As she tossed out ideas, he deftly pointed out that all those things are really enacted into legislation by Congress, so the impacting force is really Congress.  Therefore if we have issues with what happens in our life, we need to change our Congresspeople not our President. 
...
 I think this is the impact of the social media circle and it will only get worse.  I'm not sure there is a way to put the genie back in the bottle, so I am preparing for a steeper and steeper descent with each election as it will only get easier and easier to gather like minded people into groups and feed on each other's worries.

I agree with you that largely our lives are more effected by local/state governments and Congress. The reason this election (aside from Trump/Pence) is so scary to me is that the Republicans have both the Legislative and the Executive branches now (maybe even a majority in the Judicial). So, while before the Republican party platform was hostile to me (omgad so many things in this platform suuuuuck), I was at least comforted that any legislation would be tempered by Democrats and could be vetoed by the President. Whether any of the platform will actual make it into a bill? We'll have to see. Everything could be fine, but the potential for damage is pretty high.

I think the point about echo chambers is good, I do have a circle of close friends who share my concerns. However, I find that my anxiety and worries increase significantly the more I read comments - I should really stop reading the comment sections on articles but I can't seem to help myself. That's not really my echo chamber, that's just reading shit people thought was cool to just post all right out there. If I was ever one small portion as smug, dismissive, and indifferent to  (and just flat out reveling in cruelty, for goodness sake) Conservative worries during Obama's presidency than I suck. I'm pretty sure I wasn't, but now I'm also worried I'm an ass.

Sol: actually, that's a great thing to keep in mind. A ton of people didn't even vote, and a bunch of others voted for someone else. That's kind of comforting. lol

SomedayStache: I'm in a blue county in a state that went blue, but I've been having the same feeling. Just, how?  I'm actually having a difficult time committing to Thanksgiving with some family. They're still my family, and it's better to try and keep the channels open but at the same time I can't help but feel maybe it's not just our politics that differ, maybe we actual have different moral values. Like that comedian from The Daily Show said, it's like they're telling me: I don't hate you, I just don't care about you. 

...and then after all that I tell myself I should stop with the hysterics and get back to planning out my newly budgeted donations and where exactly to volunteer. Time to put my effort and money where my values are.

[Mississippi Mudstache]

What I have said is that he's the kind of misogynist to do that to his female employees and not the kind of misogynist that works tirelessly for decades to erase reproductive rights.

I think that's a level of nuance that's completely lost on most of the left. There is a distinct difference between a boor who speaks to (or even touches) women inappropriately (Trump), and a patriarchal ideologue who believes based on religious convictions that women belong in a subservient role and don't deserve  bodily autonomy (Pence).

To each their own, but I'd rather have to drive 200 miles each way for an abortion once in my life, than have my ass grabbed semi-regularly by men I find repellent.

Probably I'm spoiled, what with living in Massachusetts and knowing that overturning Roe v Wade wouldn't affect my reproductive options in the slightest, but I doubt even Pence could set women back as far as Trump has already done, by moving sexual assault ever-so-slightly back towards the mainstream.

I can understand that logic. I am also among those for whom Roe v. Wade will have no impact going forward. However, we were briefly forced to consider the possibility of abortion during the pregnancy of our second child when my wife's OB informed us that he had birth defects that might make him "incompatible with life". It was a devastating diagnosis which was later found to be incorrect after a review by a specialist. Our son does have birth defects, but his is a healthy and happy child and we're very fortunate that we never had to make that decision.

During that emotional time, Mississippi's state congress was embroiled in a legal battle over regulations that would have effectively shut down the state's only clinic that could have performed an abortion. It was an eye-opener for us - we certainly had the means to travel to another state if it was necessary, but I couldn't help but think of the families in our situations for whom that wouldn't be an option. And I'm still not over over the hypocrisy of a system that supposedly is supposedly pro-life, yet fights tooth and nail to deny health care to struggling families with medical needs that they cannot afford. So you could say that a woman's right to choose is a bit personal to me and my family, even though I'm not a woman and I don't anticipate that it will impact us going forward.

[RosieTR]

I am also worried about the polarization of our country. I fear I'm part of it, since I've been basically avoiding family I know voted for Trump. I worked hard to recover these relationships, and now this formless sense of betrayal (if I don't manage to get over myself) might put it all to waste. I'm aware I'm kind of overwrought over the whole thing, it's a work in progress.

The difficulty I have in discussing issues of equality and fair treatment (or anything) is this: inevitably it gets derailed into some semantic bullshit and dies. How do you have a discussion when you can't even agree on what words mean, what constitutes a Right, or even what sources you can trust?

I want to find some middle ground. And I think there is middle ground, albeit largely in practical matters of governance on the whole. Only, people don't vote on pragmatic shit, they barely vote at all. So we all get a bunch of ideologues voted in by fanatics, and no one can unbend themselves long enough to pass SIMPLE things like funding our goddamn infrastructure.

Totally understand this! Plus the discussion on education. It was an eye-opener for me to see how my in-laws viewed education: as a threat, a waste of time, or as an idiotic pursuit. My parents had made it very clear I would finish college, at the very least. Poor DH got ribbed repeatedly from his family: "bet they don't teach this stuff in college!" "You don't need to be edjumakated!" etc. I certainly do not think all uneducated people are stupid (my immigrant grandmother only completed 2nd grade, for example) nor do I think everyone should go to college, but I think purposely not trying to better yourself in some way IS stupid. So yeah, I struggle with this attitude from some of the conservatives.

As for the betrayal feeling-very much feeling that, too. Wondering whether every person I encounter holds a completely alien set of values than what I thought my country stood for.

[sol]

Wondering whether every person I encounter holds a completely alien set of values than what I thought my country stood for.

Just keep reminding yourself that it's wasn't "every person" who voted for Trump.  Not even half.  Not even more than voted for Clinton.

We are the same America today that we were two weeks ago.  Most people still believe in the same values.   A minority of people supported Trump.  Don't give up on us yet.

[Abe]

Only about a third of adults in the US supported Trump since voter turnout was embarrassingly low like usual.

[Tyson]

I admit it, I too am a bigot.  Against stupidity.  I can't believe we lost this election to the mouth breathers.  But we did. 

[Metric Mouse]

As for the betrayal feeling-very much feeling that, too. Wondering whether every person I encounter holds a completely alien set of values than what I thought my country stood for.

This is a good question to ask yourself. If you can't answer it, you may need to expand your understanding of the views many people in America hold, and deeply explore the reasons they may hold them. It's not easy, but understanding minority views in the US will help us move forward as a country.

[hoping2retire35]

I am going to regret posting in this echo chamber, but here goes*.

Metric is really being nice and trying to explain in the kindest way that not every time someone disagrees do they have other motivations. Sometimes people have different, sincere beliefs about the proper role of government.

For eight years every time congress passed something or refused to pass something it was seen and stated by many on the left as racially motivated, ie; because we have a black president and want to keep him from being successful. Whether it was something you read on slate or it was just a friend who believed it, that's what was said everyday for 8 years; racism.  You can't use that as a reason to say something is wrong for 8 years and when the next election comes expect it to work; 'McCain and Romney were racy but not real racist, Trump is the real racist...."

I think another aspect many do not realize is when a large group of people are labeled 'racist', 'deplorable', 'neo-nazi' or whatever it in a way makes them sub-human. Violence can be justified to keep these sub-human people at bay.  1860s or even 1960s racism isn't coming back, but to claim some people's opinion doesn't matter and any level of force is ok to keep that out becomes treasonous and much more scary.


*if it gets too bad I may delete this post

[bacchi]

For eight years every time congress passed something or refused to pass something it was seen and stated by many on the left as racially motivated, ie; because we have a black president and want to keep him from being successful.

Who did this? What are you talking about?

I think another aspect many do not realize is when a large group of people are labeled 'racist', 'deplorable', 'neo-nazi' or whatever it in a way makes them sub-human. Violence can be justified to keep these sub-human people at bay.

Seriously?

Bannon is the co-Chief of Staff. He calls out "renegade Jews" and is part of the nationalist movement. Sessions is the AG. He said that the Voting Rights Act (ya know, the original one) is "intrusive" and called a black lawyer "boy." That was in the 80s, not the 50s.

Yeah, fear for the alt-right.

*if it gets too bad I may delete this post

Too late.

[MrMoogle]

For eight years every time congress passed something or refused to pass something it was seen and stated by many on the left as racially motivated, ie; because we have a black president and want to keep him from being successful.

Who did this? What are you talking about?

Conservatives have to deal with Liberal Assholes, calling them racist.  Liberals have to deal the Conservative Assholes, delivering hate speech.

I've been called racist many times over the last 8 years, and when I've asked why, I've literally been told, "because Obama is black."  Not every time, but enough times.  I know this is like <0.01% of Liberals, but it's the vocal ones that I see.  I'm sure liberals have just as bad of stories about the <0.01% Conservatives.  I don't condone either side, and it's impossible to root out this small percentage of people.  But it's a real problem with the Liberal and Conservative divide.

[DavidAnnArbor]

hope2retire, I would say that the voting changes in North Carolina to restrict early voting and abolish Sunday voting was a racist endeavor by the Republican state government. In fact these voting changes were shown to surgically lower voting turnout in more Democratic voting areas, namely the African American communities.

[sol]

when a large group of people are labeled 'racist', 'deplorable', 'neo-nazi' or whatever it in a way makes them sub-human. Violence can be justified to keep these sub-human people at bay.

Oh I'm sorry, were you triggered by accusations of racism?  Did those words make you feel uncomfortable, or scared?  Enough to publicly complain about the way the majority was treating you?

Yea, welcome to the lives of ethnic minorities in America since Day 1.

The hypocrisy here is amazing.

[Metric Mouse]

when a large group of people are labeled 'racist', 'deplorable', 'neo-nazi' or whatever it in a way makes them sub-human. Violence can be justified to keep these sub-human people at bay.

Oh I'm sorry, were you triggered by accusations of racism?  Did those words make you feel uncomfortable, or scared?  Enough to publicly complain about the way the majority was treating you?

Yea, welcome to the lives of ethnic minorities in America since Day 1.

The hypocrisy here is amazing.

Yes... this is clearly what we need more of in America - putting down minorities and denigrating people that are different than ourselves.

[sol]

this is clearly what we need more of in America - putting down minorities and denigrating people that are different than ourselves.

When the "minority" in question is racists?  American Nazis?  The Alt-right? 

Yea, I'm kind of okay with it.  We don't strengthen America by overlooking deplorable views, we strengthen it by actively refuting them.  I don't feel like I'm dividing America by standing up against bigotry.

[MrMoogle]

this is clearly what we need more of in America - putting down minorities and denigrating people that are different than ourselves.

When the "minority" in question is racists?  American Nazis?  The Alt-right? 

Yea, I'm kind of okay with it.  We don't strengthen America by overlooking deplorable views, we strengthen it by actively refuting them.  I don't feel like I'm dividing America by standing up against bigotry.

There's a difference between racists and those who have been label racists by someone.  Those labeled racist isn't a minority.  There are those on both sides calling the other side racist.  For example, many on the right believe affirmative action is a racist endeavor. 

[DavidAnnArbor]

For example, many on the right believe affirmative action is a racist endeavor.

So go back in your time machine and stop slavery from having occurred, and stop Jim Crow laws, and stop racial discrimination in hiring until the Civil Rights Act, etc.

[Metric Mouse]

this is clearly what we need more of in America - putting down minorities and denigrating people that are different than ourselves.

When the "minority" in question is racists brown people?  American NazisIrish?  The Alt-rightPorn actors? 

Yea, I'm kind of okay with it.  We don't strengthen America by overlooking deplorable views, we strengthen it by actively refuting them.  I don't feel like I'm dividing America by standing up against bigotry views I disagree with.

I guess I would push more for understanding and polite disagreement with minority views that I don't share. Obviously large sections of American voters are fine with simply writing off the views of minorities they don't agree with or understand, and denigrating them off hand.  So it probably means I'm wrong.  But I'll still stand up understanding and discourse and compromise, even if that makes me a deplorable.

[MrMoogle]

For example, many on the right believe affirmative action is a racist endeavor.

So go back in your time machine and stop slavery from having occurred, and stop Jim Crow laws, and stop racial discrimination in hiring until the Civil Rights Act, etc.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Can you please explain it?

[Gin1984]

For example, many on the right believe affirmative action is a racist endeavor.

So go back in your time machine and stop slavery from having occurred, and stop Jim Crow laws, and stop racial discrimination in hiring until the Civil Rights Act, etc.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Can you please explain it?

Affirmative action was done to compensate for both the implicit and explicit bias that happens because of the attitudes we have growing up in a society which earlier thought certain groups were less.

[MrMoogle]

For example, many on the right believe affirmative action is a racist endeavor.

So go back in your time machine and stop slavery from having occurred, and stop Jim Crow laws, and stop racial discrimination in hiring until the Civil Rights Act, etc.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.  Can you please explain it?

Affirmative action was done to compensate for both the implicit and explicit bias that happens because of the attitudes we have growing up in a society which earlier thought certain groups were less.

I wasn't arguing that AA was racist, I was saying many believe that.  So if you use the "labeled racist" it's most of the population.

[RosieTR]

As for the betrayal feeling-very much feeling that, too. Wondering whether every person I encounter holds a completely alien set of values than what I thought my country stood for.

This is a good question to ask yourself. If you can't answer it, you may need to expand your understanding of the views many people in America hold, and deeply explore the reasons they may hold them. It's not easy, but understanding minority views in the US will help us move forward as a country.

I'm talking about the things we were all taught in school or by listening to Hamilton ;-)
Stuff like the value of hard work, the contributions of both those whose families that have been here for some time and those who are new immigrants (leaving aside illegal immigration for the moment), the whole idea of equality ("all men are created equal") and that as Americans we are, or should be, free to pursue life, liberty and happiness as we see fit. A bunch of what I think of as American values also come from Ben Franklin's sayings that have been passed on, such as "a penny saved is a penny earned" and "early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise" etc. Various freedoms are outlined in the Bill of Rights. To me, those all seem like basic American values. What my dad came to this country (legally!) for, and what my husband served in the military for.

Obviously, the United States has not implemented these perfectly, and of course there will be differences in some of the details-what each person thinks is "liberty" for example, or "happiness". But it feels like some fundamental breakdown of these basic values. I don't feel like Trump embodies any of this at all (certainly not early to bed given his midnight tweets, ha ha). I then wonder whether a bunch of his supporters agree that any of this is important, or worth fighting for. I guess I don't feel like Trump cares at all about any of these values. Freedom of the press? Threatened to squelch that and in fact removed some reporters from various functions. Freedom of religion? Proposed Muslim registration and investigation of mosques. Hard work? Derided Hillary on her preparation for the first debate. Liberty? Does not seem to think women deserve even the most basic of liberties, that of bodily autonomy. And people being created equal? No need to rehash the multiple discussions regarding race.

I can't really tell any particular values he embodies at all. So that's where I'm feeling like I don't understand what values my fellow Americans even hold dear.

[bananarama]

As for the betrayal feeling-very much feeling that, too. Wondering whether every person I encounter holds a completely alien set of values than what I thought my country stood for.

This is a good question to ask yourself. If you can't answer it, you may need to expand your understanding of the views many people in America hold, and deeply explore the reasons they may hold them. It's not easy, but understanding minority views in the US will help us move forward as a country.

I'm talking about the things we were all taught in school or by listening to Hamilton ;-)
Stuff like the value of hard work, the contributions of both those whose families that have been here for some time and those who are new immigrants (leaving aside illegal immigration for the moment), the whole idea of equality ("all men are created equal") and that as Americans we are, or should be, free to pursue life, liberty and happiness as we see fit. A bunch of what I think of as American values also come from Ben Franklin's sayings that have been passed on, such as "a penny saved is a penny earned" and "early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise" etc. Various freedoms are outlined in the Bill of Rights. To me, those all seem like basic American values. What my dad came to this country (legally!) for, and what my husband served in the military for.

Obviously, the United States has not implemented these perfectly, and of course there will be differences in some of the details-what each person thinks is "liberty" for example, or "happiness". But it feels like some fundamental breakdown of these basic values. I don't feel like Trump embodies any of this at all (certainly not early to bed given his midnight tweets, ha ha). I then wonder whether a bunch of his supporters agree that any of this is important, or worth fighting for. I guess I don't feel like Trump cares at all about any of these values. Freedom of the press? Threatened to squelch that and in fact removed some reporters from various functions. Freedom of religion? Proposed Muslim registration and investigation of mosques. Hard work? Derided Hillary on her preparation for the first debate. Liberty? Does not seem to think women deserve even the most basic of liberties, that of bodily autonomy. And people being created equal? No need to rehash the multiple discussions regarding race.

I can't really tell any particular values he embodies at all. So that's where I'm feeling like I don't understand what values my fellow Americans even hold dear.

Yes, so much yes for the last two paragraphs. Its like we don't even have the same values at all, or we prioritize values differently. 

It was also so jarring that so many people didn't think America was already great. For all the shit that gets thrown all the time about flag pins and national anthem baloney, what? Really? When was America great? Right freaking now, that's when. Sure, the jobs in the 50s and 60s would be great (no international competition! Everybody gets to be middle class (but with way less stuff)! No robots!) but socially it sucked. My grams was raised as her mothers freaking sister, because unwed mothers were just not the thing, and her (grand)father had to cosign on her first bank accounts and credit cards! Jim Crow, lynchings, kids abandoned for being gay, loosing your kids for being gay, being ostracized for divorce, no access to abortions, rape could not legally happen in a marriage, etc etc etc.

I've always (idealistically yes) viewed America's glory days as perpetually just a little bit ahead of us. That with just a little more work we could really be a more perfect union where all people are treated equal and the scales of justice are actually blind.

When I'm feeling to most bummed about this I think maybe we never believed any of that bullshit and I'm just a mindless idealist. I can't see the world as Trump does, or as Republicans seem to want me to see it.

[MrMoogle]

As for the betrayal feeling-very much feeling that, too. Wondering whether every person I encounter holds a completely alien set of values than what I thought my country stood for.

This is a good question to ask yourself. If you can't answer it, you may need to expand your understanding of the views many people in America hold, and deeply explore the reasons they may hold them. It's not easy, but understanding minority views in the US will help us move forward as a country.

I'm talking about the things we were all taught in school or by listening to Hamilton ;-)
Stuff like the value of hard work, the contributions of both those whose families that have been here for some time and those who are new immigrants (leaving aside illegal immigration for the moment), the whole idea of equality ("all men are created equal") and that as Americans we are, or should be, free to pursue life, liberty and happiness as we see fit. A bunch of what I think of as American values also come from Ben Franklin's sayings that have been passed on, such as "a penny saved is a penny earned" and "early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise" etc. Various freedoms are outlined in the Bill of Rights. To me, those all seem like basic American values. What my dad came to this country (legally!) for, and what my husband served in the military for.

Obviously, the United States has not implemented these perfectly, and of course there will be differences in some of the details-what each person thinks is "liberty" for example, or "happiness". But it feels like some fundamental breakdown of these basic values. I don't feel like Trump embodies any of this at all (certainly not early to bed given his midnight tweets, ha ha). I then wonder whether a bunch of his supporters agree that any of this is important, or worth fighting for. I guess I don't feel like Trump cares at all about any of these values. Freedom of the press? Threatened to squelch that and in fact removed some reporters from various functions. Freedom of religion? Proposed Muslim registration and investigation of mosques. Hard work? Derided Hillary on her preparation for the first debate. Liberty? Does not seem to think women deserve even the most basic of liberties, that of bodily autonomy. And people being created equal? No need to rehash the multiple discussions regarding race.

I can't really tell any particular values he embodies at all. So that's where I'm feeling like I don't understand what values my fellow Americans even hold dear.

Yes, so much yes for the last two paragraphs. Its like we don't even have the same values at all, or we prioritize values differently. 

It was also so jarring that so many people didn't think America was already great. For all the shit that gets thrown all the time about flag pins and national anthem baloney, what? Really? When was America great? Right freaking now, that's when. Sure, the jobs in the 50s and 60s would be great (no international competition! Everybody gets to be middle class (but with way less stuff)! No robots!) but socially it sucked. My grams was raised as her mothers freaking sister, because unwed mothers were just not the thing, and her (grand)father had to cosign on her first bank accounts and credit cards! Jim Crow, lynchings, kids abandoned for being gay, loosing your kids for being gay, being ostracized for divorce, no access to abortions, rape could not legally happen in a marriage, etc etc etc.

I've always (idealistically yes) viewed America's glory days as perpetually just a little bit ahead of us. That with just a little more work we could really be a more perfect union where all people are treated equal and the scales of justice are actually blind.

When I'm feeling to most bummed about this I think maybe we never believed any of that bullshit and I'm just a mindless idealist. I can't see the world as Trump does, or as Republicans seem to want me to see it.

Republicans had a very similar arguments with Obama's "Change." 

[Jack]

Metric is really being nice and trying to explain in the kindest way that not every time someone disagrees do they have other motivations. Sometimes people have different, sincere beliefs about the proper role of government.

No. Making a pretense of political correctness is not the same as "being nice." Metric is peddling in disgusting moral relativism and it needs to stop. Not all viewpoints are equally valid, and repudiating intolerance is not equivalent to being intolerant.

Bigots are not a "minority." They are not being oppressed. What they are, are gigantic hypocrites who try to co-opt the language of actual oppressed minorities in some kind of twisted attempt to legitimize their hate. Claiming to be a "minority viewpoint" that wants "respectful compromise" makes a goddamn mockery of the whole idea of compromise, because destroying the rights of others is not a legitimate goal to compromise about.

You can argue for small government without being a bigot. You can argue for (most) Republican policy positions without being a bigot. You can argue against Hillary without being a bigot. You can even argue for many of Trump's policies (to the extent he has them) without being a bigot! I know this because I have done all those things myself, on the pages of this forum!

What you can't do is continue making excuses for Trump, the hundreds of bigoted things he said during the campaign, and the blatantly bigoted slime he's appointing to his cabinet, without being a bigot!

For eight years every time congress passed something or refused to pass something it was seen and stated by many on the left as racially motivated, ie; because we have a black president and want to keep him from being successful.

What, so you think the Republicans' instant one-eighty on Romneycare was some kind of coincidence?

The Republicans opposed things even they themselves thought were good ideas just because Obama liked them. That's a fact. Deal with it.

I think another aspect many do not realize is when a large group of people are labeled 'racist', 'deplorable', 'neo-nazi' or whatever it in a way makes them sub-human. Violence can be justified to keep these sub-human people at bay.  1860s or even 1960s racism isn't coming back, but to claim some people's opinion doesn't matter and any level of force is ok to keep that out becomes treasonous and much more scary.

The bigots have nobody to blame but themselves for that. They're the treasonous ones advocating for the violence!

[hoping2retire35]

The whole premise of what I was stating is that the accusation of racist is over-used. You can say everytime some one disagrees with you or don't do something that overtly help the black population that they are racist. It begins to void the accusation.

For eight years every time congress passed something or refused to pass something it was seen and stated by many on the left as racially motivated, ie; because we have a black president and want to keep him from being successful.

What, so you think the Republicans' instant one-eighty on Romneycare was some kind of coincidence?

The Republicans opposed things even they themselves thought were good ideas just because Obama liked them. That's a fact. Deal with it.

No, that was one republican governer in a blue state, who passed something that would have otherwise passed. Quit calling it a 'republican idea.' There never was a 180 on Romney care, they always considered it a socialist policy.


see above

You can argue for small government without being a bigot. You can argue for (most) Republican policy positions without being a bigot. You can argue against Hillary without being a bigot. You can even argue for many of Trump's policies (to the extent he has them) without being a bigot! I know this because I have done all those things myself, on the pages of this forum!

What you can't do is continue making excuses for Trump, the hundreds of bigoted things he said during the campaign, and the blatantly bigoted slime he's appointing to his cabinet, without being a bigot!

edit

No. Making a pretense of political correctness is not the same as "being nice." Metric is peddling in disgusting moral relativism and it needs to stop. Not all viewpoints are equally valid, and repudiating intolerance is not equivalent to being intolerant.

Bigots are not a "minority." They are not being oppressed. What they are, are gigantic hypocrites who try to co-opt the language of actual oppressed minorities in some kind of twisted attempt to legitimize their hate. Claiming to be a "minority viewpoint" that wants "respectful compromise" makes a goddamn mockery of the whole idea of compromise, because destroying the rights of others is not a legitimate goal to compromise about.

I could make the same argument about people who are pro-choice. I just choose to not call them murderous barbarians.