Author Topic: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd  (Read 80887 times)

RangerOne

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #400 on: November 21, 2016, 12:20:57 PM »

I do recognize white privilege when I see it.  I'm not part of the rural poor.  I'm just empathizing with them and trying to argue from their perspective, because I think it's really ugly the way people see Trump supporter and immediately think "racist, ignorant, uneducated".   Like do you not see how hypocritical that is?  So all rural whites and all Republican white people are white supremacist misogynists but all <insert minority group> are not <insert ugly racial stereotype>?

Also, as far as I know, racism cannot be perpetrated against the oppressing group.  So in this case, whites can be stereotyped but not be the victims of racism because of white privilege.  But I would argue that poor rural whites don't have much privilege to speak of.  So maybe they can be victims of racism, despite being a member of the white race.

Also it's not a contest to see who is the most oppressed.  One person's great oppression does not cancel out another's pain.  I think it's short-sighted and unfair to ignore the message that Trump voters have sent.   It's like you're all saying, oh sorry life sucks for you today, but historically you were advantaged because you did terrible things so shut up and deal with it.

"Ignorant" is not a race, and neither is "uneducated". All people are to some degree racist because we inhabit a culture that is systemically racist to some degree. How much that influences a person and what they do to notice this is the issue. Some people notice and realize to some degree what's going and gone on. Some people don't really notice (these would be the most common "but I'm not a racist for voting for Trump" folks) and some embrace this (the minority of Trump voters who have now been emboldened to shout N----r! at people or the people who have been publishing this stuff on alt-right sites).
As for the poor white people being both oppressed and racist-that's the oldest trick in the book for wealthy white people to continue to remain so. Divide and conquer as they say. So yes, they have been oppressed by the common human mechanism of feeling just a little bit better than those just below you, rather than being pissed off at those above and joining with those below to change things.

Agreed these distractions are shit, Trump went double down on what was basically the Republican platform of blaming immigrants and foreigners for taking working class jobs. Add in a bit of fear of Muslim immigrants and terrorism to bolster that fear. The we have the Dems getting us to vote for overall shitty candidate by getting us to believe that if the Repubs got their way every non-white native and immigrant will be under attack. That bigger government, forced higher wages and more programs can fix a lack of good working class. jobs.

And every single bit of bit on both sides are nothing but slivers of truth painted in way to appeal to an emotional vote. So I guess politics as usual except we ran two exceptionally unappealing candidates. The circus clown won because the only thing we can all agree on at this point is that politicians suck and the media is biased towards the establishment.

RangerOne

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #401 on: November 21, 2016, 12:24:07 PM »
And yes the liberal pundits continue to blame everyone else for their messaging problems and shame all working class whites as bigoted fools, while douchebag frat boys and real racists continue to try and prove us all right by being assholes invoking Trumps name as some kind of white nationalist attack against non-white people...

Gondolin

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #402 on: November 21, 2016, 03:32:14 PM »
Quote
Ahh don't forget Columbus Day. A day where we celebrate a white European who enslaved native inhabitants of the West Indies, forced them to convert to Christianity, and subdued them with violence in an effort to seek riches.

And George Washington was a radical terrorist who widowed thousands of good, British families with his brutal rebellion.

Seriously, can we drop the whole Columbus day 'debate'? Everyone agrees Columbus was the bad guy. No one is clinging to their proud Italian heritage and insisting that Columbus was some kind of American Hero. Columbus day only became a federal holiday due to intense lobbying by the Knights of Columbus back in the '30s and ONLY apathy is keeping it from being renamed now.

Yet despite all this every year people trot out their Columbus day memes like they're humanity's wittiest historian.



On a separate note, lots of great points have been made in the above discussion. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the difficulty of becoming a 'white ally'. I think we've been dancing around this topic at several points in this thread.

Several points have been made (mostly by Sol and LadyStache) about a "complacent majority" who are "...less racist than an overt racist but not NOT racist" and how it would be great if people would stop shouting "RACIST!" over every little bit of pedantry so that the uneducated could learn something instead of being driven off.

I find this goal laudable but, ultimately a very "big ask" for most people. It seems to me there is an awful lot of pretentious, pedantic gate-keeping going on in the progressive community. Becoming an 'ally' is mostly a study in self-flagellation. Profess enough self-hate and someone will anoint you 'woke' enough to be part of the club. Otherwise, you're just one of the racist sheeple.

I've seen a lot of good people try to break this perception with various forms of compassionate outreach but, so far, no one has been able to really get by the fact that the interaction is still one of enlightened, wise, 'right side of history' teachers coming down from on high to bring equality to the savage, racist masses. There's just no incentive for those masses to come to the table. Doubly so if they know that they're going to be hit as soon as they open their mouth.

Anyone have other experiences?

accolay

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #403 on: November 21, 2016, 04:21:28 PM »
Seriously, can we drop the whole Columbus day 'debate'? Everyone agrees Columbus was the bad guy. No one is clinging to their proud Italian heritage and insisting that Columbus was some kind of American Hero. Columbus day only became a federal holiday due to intense lobbying by the Knights of Columbus back in the '30s and ONLY apathy is keeping it from being renamed now.

There are some who celebrate or would like to continue to celebrate Columbus day...some Italian Americans. The brutality of Columbus is glossed over and instead they would like to celebrate his "spirit of adventure and exploration" from one opinion piece. Just sayin'

Northwestie

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #404 on: November 21, 2016, 04:33:51 PM »
Ya don't have to look to far to see why liberals are viewed as out of touch by many Americans - spending so much time on this Identity Politics crap - constantly looking for separate categories instead of unifying themes.

As Bernie Sanders said - "Liberals - America is tired of hearing about your bathrooms as a national issue"

Gin1984

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #405 on: November 21, 2016, 04:34:58 PM »
Quote
Ahh don't forget Columbus Day. A day where we celebrate a white European who enslaved native inhabitants of the West Indies, forced them to convert to Christianity, and subdued them with violence in an effort to seek riches.

And George Washington was a radical terrorist who widowed thousands of good, British families with his brutal rebellion.

Seriously, can we drop the whole Columbus day 'debate'? Everyone agrees Columbus was the bad guy. No one is clinging to their proud Italian heritage and insisting that Columbus was some kind of American Hero. Columbus day only became a federal holiday due to intense lobbying by the Knights of Columbus back in the '30s and ONLY apathy is keeping it from being renamed now.

Yet despite all this every year people trot out their Columbus day memes like they're humanity's wittiest historian.



On a separate note, lots of great points have been made in the above discussion. I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the difficulty of becoming a 'white ally'. I think we've been dancing around this topic at several points in this thread.

Several points have been made (mostly by Sol and LadyStache) about a "complacent majority" who are "...less racist than an overt racist but not NOT racist" and how it would be great if people would stop shouting "RACIST!" over every little bit of pedantry so that the uneducated could learn something instead of being driven off.

I find this goal laudable but, ultimately a very "big ask" for most people. It seems to me there is an awful lot of pretentious, pedantic gate-keeping going on in the progressive community. Becoming an 'ally' is mostly a study in self-flagellation. Profess enough self-hate and someone will anoint you 'woke' enough to be part of the club. Otherwise, you're just one of the racist sheeple.

I've seen a lot of good people try to break this perception with various forms of compassionate outreach but, so far, no one has been able to really get by the fact that the interaction is still one of enlightened, wise, 'right side of history' teachers coming down from on high to bring equality to the savage, racist masses. There's just no incentive for those masses to come to the table. Doubly so if they know that they're going to be hit as soon as they open their mouth.

Anyone have other experiences?
Yes, I had the opposite experience.  I've never been asked to or expected to do any self-flagellation.  Being an ally means speaking up when there is an issue where I will be listened to, in a way others won't.  If I say something was racist, it is given more weight than the same statement from a POC saying the same thing.  Just as if a man says something is sexist, he gets listened to more than a woman does.  That is what being an ally is, it is helping.  And I have been an ally to the gay community, and POC and never have I been asked to do anything but listen and speak up.

LadyStache in Baja

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #406 on: November 21, 2016, 05:55:21 PM »
Yes Gondolin!  So well-said.  Thank you for getting me. 

And yes Gin1984, speaking out is important.  When I think of what I want in a male ally in the fight against rape culture, for example, I want a man to speak out when in a group of men when someone makes a stupid rape joke.  Just a simple, dude that's not funny.

I think it works best when all parties know each other, well. 

So for me, that doesn't mean that when my grandma says something racist I need to say "That's racist".  I'll just say, hey actually studies show that welfare fraud is only at 3%.  And I get a "oh wow, really?" 

That's constructive criticism.

If a woke liberal just wants to be right, then yeah, go ahead and shout racist everytime you see something racist.

But if we want to get somewhere, then we've got to get there together, and we need to think about how best to bring people with us.


redbirdfan

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #407 on: November 22, 2016, 12:33:24 AM »
A couple of thoughts on some of the posts.  While it is likely true that there aren't any "white culture" centers with "white" in the title that are not obviously geared towards white supremacy, you have to look at the history of the institutions that are used as the examples that minorities have.  Most of the "black cultural centers" were created because black people were not allowed to participate in the white equivalent.  Historically black colleges and universities were created because blacks were not allowed to attend white colleges or universities.  Most "black neighborhoods" were created due to redlining practices of the banks and race restrictions placed on the deeds of homes in "white neighborhoods." The NAACP was created in the early 20th century as an organization to fight for the civil rights of black people in the aftermath of slavery and the civil war.  Most "black cultural centers" were created out of necessity.  I find it odd that these institutions are now being used as a reference to something minorities have that white people don't get to have.  I will also say that the black institutions were created when black people had more of an obvious common goal (access to education, civil rights, etc.)  I'm not sure that there is a common "white" goal that would make a white cultural organization relevant.  It makes more sense to narrow down "white" into groups with a common purpose - whether its the Freedom Caucus or opera aficionados.  In terms of culture, there are plenty of cultural centers for Irish/Italian/Scandinavian/French/German/Russian/Jewish/English heritage.  There are plenty of scholarships and organizations on college campuses geared towards these groups that are not seen as racist.

I don't think we have a racism problem so much as what I consider a race fatigue problem.  I don't mean to imply that racism doesn't exist, but I think most people just want to express their thoughts without self-editing or feeling like they have to walk on eggshells to avoid being called racist.  There are entire states without large numbers of minorities (see Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, West Virginia, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, Iowa and Kansas).  Baby Boomers in these areas tend to be more working class, shut up and deal with it types who were raised by parents who grew up during the Great Depression.  You aren't going to get anywhere in a conversation with them that starts off with "white privilege" or "institutional racism."  Again, I'm not saying these things are not real, but they are rendered pretty close to irrelevant as a talking point for people when they are focused on feeding and educating their family.   

I've had lots of conversations with Trump supporters in which they opened up to me after realizing we could have a direct and candid conversation about race and other topics.  I was able to listen as were they.  I don't think the people I talked to are racist.  Most had very limited personal interaction with any minorities.  Most seemed to live by a simple mantra - support your family, work hard, don't complain. 
After listening, I can understand how someone could be just as offended by the identity politics of the left as he or she is with Trump's rhetoric.  If I could get past my visceral reaction to Trump, I could understand how the email server and Clinton Foundation really was a big deal (and a dealbreaker) for some.  I didn't allow them to be a big deal for me because I really didn't/don't like Trump.  I can appreciate how voting for Trump doesn't make you racist any more than voting for Clinton makes me a proponent of unnecessary secrecy and mishandling classified information.  Stepping outside of my bubble, I can understand how "drain the swamp" and I will bring back your jobs without any substantive proposals could be just as inspiring as "yes we can" without any substantive proposals. 

I was not and am not a Trump supporter.  Having said that, I will always try to listen, understand and empathize even if in the end I still don't agree.     

   


Lagom

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #408 on: November 22, 2016, 10:37:29 AM »
The problem is that things like "the email server" were not particularly good reasons to disqualify Clinton and effectively amounted to swiftboating her. True, those Trump supporters may have believed the propaganda fed to them, making their concerns "valid," but the point remains. Edit - Also as SisterX points out, there is the dichotomy of emails being deal-breaking but race baiting, extreme misogyny, etc. being tolerable. That said, I am not trying to argue Clinton was an amazing candidate and I totally agree Clinton supporters and/or #neverTrump folks have been unproductively harsh about it.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2016, 10:40:40 AM by Lagom »

SisterX

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #409 on: November 22, 2016, 10:38:56 AM »
A couple of thoughts on some of the posts.  While it is likely true that there aren't any "white culture" centers with "white" in the title that are not obviously geared towards white supremacy, you have to look at the history of the institutions that are used as the examples that minorities have.  Most of the "black cultural centers" were created because black people were not allowed to participate in the white equivalent.  Historically black colleges and universities were created because blacks were not allowed to attend white colleges or universities.  Most "black neighborhoods" were created due to redlining practices of the banks and race restrictions placed on the deeds of homes in "white neighborhoods." The NAACP was created in the early 20th century as an organization to fight for the civil rights of black people in the aftermath of slavery and the civil war.  Most "black cultural centers" were created out of necessity.  I find it odd that these institutions are now being used as a reference to something minorities have that white people don't get to have.  I will also say that the black institutions were created when black people had more of an obvious common goal (access to education, civil rights, etc.)  I'm not sure that there is a common "white" goal that would make a white cultural organization relevant.  It makes more sense to narrow down "white" into groups with a common purpose - whether its the Freedom Caucus or opera aficionados.  In terms of culture, there are plenty of cultural centers for Irish/Italian/Scandinavian/French/German/Russian/Jewish/English heritage.  There are plenty of scholarships and organizations on college campuses geared towards these groups that are not seen as racist.

I don't think we have a racism problem so much as what I consider a race fatigue problem.  I don't mean to imply that racism doesn't exist, but I think most people just want to express their thoughts without self-editing or feeling like they have to walk on eggshells to avoid being called racist.  There are entire states without large numbers of minorities (see Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, West Virginia, Vermont, Maine, New Hampshire, Iowa and Kansas).  Baby Boomers in these areas tend to be more working class, shut up and deal with it types who were raised by parents who grew up during the Great Depression.  You aren't going to get anywhere in a conversation with them that starts off with "white privilege" or "institutional racism."  Again, I'm not saying these things are not real, but they are rendered pretty close to irrelevant as a talking point for people when they are focused on feeding and educating their family.   

I've had lots of conversations with Trump supporters in which they opened up to me after realizing we could have a direct and candid conversation about race and other topics.  I was able to listen as were they.  I don't think the people I talked to are racist.  Most had very limited personal interaction with any minorities.  Most seemed to live by a simple mantra - support your family, work hard, don't complain. 
After listening, I can understand how someone could be just as offended by the identity politics of the left as he or she is with Trump's rhetoric.  If I could get past my visceral reaction to Trump, I could understand how the email server and Clinton Foundation really was a big deal (and a dealbreaker) for some.  I didn't allow them to be a big deal for me because I really didn't/don't like Trump.  I can appreciate how voting for Trump doesn't make you racist any more than voting for Clinton makes me a proponent of unnecessary secrecy and mishandling classified information.  Stepping outside of my bubble, I can understand how "drain the swamp" and I will bring back your jobs without any substantive proposals could be just as inspiring as "yes we can" without any substantive proposals. 

I was not and am not a Trump supporter.  Having said that, I will always try to listen, understand and empathize even if in the end I still don't agree.     

   

This is really good. I think the sticking point for a lot of us is not that everyone who voted for Trump is explicitly racist or misogynistic or whatever, it's that those things weren't enough to put them off. Like, here you've got a candidate who was explicitly endorsed by the KKK and people are still going around saying, "Yeah, but I like his policies. And anyway, Hillary's worse." How the fuck is she worse? I don't think she's perfect by any means, but if you look at their two histories she does actually have a strong track record of working for underserved communities and looking out for the little guy. Trump's track record is fraud and running businesses into the ground. And that's without touching on his personal life, which has also shown him to be blatantly narcissistic and amoral. I'm going to throw shit at the next person who derides HRC for staying with her husband after he had an affair while supporting a dickhole who's cheated on all of his spouses. That's a fucked up double-standard, is what it is.

Aside from all of this, I can't believe so many people bought his message. It's like they believed all of his lines at face value. He's going to drain the swamp? We're already seeing that he won't! Even aside from his cabinet appointments/potential appointments, there's the fact that he's not going to close himself off from his business interests while he's in the White House. Everyone else creates a blind trust for their business interests while in office and he...is handing it over to his kids. Because no one's ever been able to dabble in the family business after handing over power, right?

Oh, and then there's the fact that they're considering themselves too good to live in the White House.

Gee, it's like people were sounding the alarm on these things all the way through his candidacy and were ignored. It's also like there might be reasons you want a career politician in office, rather than a business person, to avoid certain conflicts of interest. But no, Trump supporters wanted an outsider. Because there's never been corruption outside of politics. Right? Amiright?

These are why I think that many Trump supporters are uneducated. You can have all the fancy degrees in the world and it clearly doesn't make some people good thinkers. And honestly, it didn't take a truly enlightened person to think, hmm, maybe this guy isn't completely honest about everything.

I don't consider myself totally not racist or bigoted (because it's a spectrum, and everyone falls somewhere on it) or "woke" (what the hell does that mean?) or an SJW or an activist or anything. It doesn't take any of those things to understand common human decency, however, and to recognize when someone doesn't have any of it. It also doesn't take a surprising amount of smarts to ferret out a serial liar. The fact that Trump supporters either didn't see any of this or didn't care about it is where my disagreement with their stance comes in.

LadyStache in Baja

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #410 on: November 22, 2016, 11:04:38 AM »
SisterX, I agree with everything you said, but this part I have to comment on:
" I don't think she's perfect by any means, but if you look at their two histories she does actually have a strong track record of working for underserved communities and looking out for the little guy."

I don't think that's what conservative voters care about.  They care about balancing the budget and they worry (founded or not) that government spending is going to run this country into the ground.

It's like someone said in this thread or maybe another, "voting for the greater good instead of what's best for you used to be called character".  That poster went on to say that when Buffet or Soros vote Democrat it goes against their own personal gain and everyone applauds.  But when people in dying communities vote for what they think is the best way to run a country despite it being painful to them in short-run, we shake our heads at their stupidity.

RosieTR

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #411 on: November 22, 2016, 11:46:12 AM »
I'm arguing that white liberals are dismissing the concerns of poor white Trump voters.

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself very well. I meant that Trump (and many others, historically way back to wealthy slave owners) have used race to divide the poor especially in the southeastern US. Both poor whites and poor blacks in the south should have common interests, but exploiting this long history has lately been helping the GOP.

I think the Democratic message attempted to address the concerns of all poor voters, not just white ones, but the message was subverted into terms like "Washington insider" and into ideas like "in the hands of big banks". This, despite Clinton's discussion during the debate of how she would pay higher taxes due to a high income. Who knows about Trump, since it's still not clear if he's ever even paid taxes, and a percent of zero is zero.

Given that I have already seen stories on how poor, rural, white voters are terrified of losing their health insurance that they've only had since Obamacare was enacted anyway, I'm not sure why they tended to vote this way except that the message didn't reach them or they didn't believe it. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/11/19/502580120/in-depressed-rural-kentucky-worries-mount-over-medicaid-cutbacks
Not a surprise given the lying sociopath constantly saying BS as well as Russians and others purposely spreading misinformation.


frugalnacho

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #412 on: November 22, 2016, 12:35:53 PM »
Given that I have already seen stories on how poor, rural, white voters are terrified of losing their health insurance that they've only had since Obamacare was enacted anyway, I'm not sure why they tended to vote this way except that the message didn't reach them or they didn't believe it. http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/11/19/502580120/in-depressed-rural-kentucky-worries-mount-over-medicaid-cutbacks
Not a surprise given the lying sociopath constantly saying BS as well as Russians and others purposely spreading misinformation.

They didn't all vote that way. There were nearly 1.9M votes in kentucky.  Approximately 1.2M voted trump, and 0.7M didn't.  I wonder if there is perhaps some overlap between the 0.7M and the people in the NPR article?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #413 on: November 22, 2016, 01:05:06 PM »
I don't think that's what conservative voters care about.  They care about balancingpretending to balance the budget and they worry (founded or not) that government spending is going to run this country into the ground.

FTFY ;)

Metric Mouse

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #414 on: November 23, 2016, 06:23:46 AM »
I don't think that's what conservative voters care about.  They care about balancingpretending to balance the budget and they worry (founded or not) that government spending is going to run this country into the ground.

FTFY ;)

Yeah - this is one of the issues with American politics of at least the past decade and a half (which is the limit of my personal experience with it) - all sorts of people promising and pretending to address major issues without actually working on the thing they're pretending to.

Just Joe

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #415 on: January 17, 2017, 02:32:14 PM »
Hasn't that been a portion of politics since 1776?

I think the problem lies with people who say one thing and then actively do the opposite.

We'll shrink the government - right after we spend $5T on a trio of unnecessary wars.

Or - that awkward religious ethics situation created by supporting warfare as a political and security solution when a person talks about being a strong believer in the teachings of Jesus...

Or - against abortions but also not in favor of providing for the babies already born into this world...

Or - rattling on about freedom and democracy while gerrymandering voting districts and making it difficult for the poor to vote.

Preaching about free markets while making sure they aren't really free. See Tesla vs car dealers for one example. Look at the Chicken Tax for another.

And the list goes on and on... 

Metric Mouse

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #416 on: January 19, 2017, 12:54:20 AM »
Hasn't that been a portion of politics since 1776?

I think the problem lies with people who say one thing and then actively do the opposite.
....
And the list goes on and on...

Yeah, this was one of my personal disappointments with the current president. Talked a good game but then back tracked quickly to the opposite. It seems like the incoming leader of the free world won't be much better on that score, either.

sol

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #417 on: January 19, 2017, 01:07:53 AM »
Yeah, this was one of my personal disappointments with the current president. Talked a good game but then back tracked quickly to the opposite.

Can you give us some examples?  I feel like most of Obama's broken campaign promises were due to being stymied by a Republican Congress, but maybe you have a different list than I do.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #418 on: January 19, 2017, 02:12:28 AM »
Yeah, this was one of my personal disappointments with the current president. Talked a good game but then back tracked quickly to the opposite.

Can you give us some examples?  I feel like most of Obama's broken campaign promises were due to being stymied by a Republican Congress, but maybe you have a different list than I do.

Talks a good game about the environment - approves pipelines run by massive oil companies to carry product to Mexico, to be used with even fewer emission regulations than the USA.

Syria red-line - back tracked and basically let it drop. Not a good situation there, now.

You can keep your doctor/it'll put $2,500 in every American's pocket - not so much.

End the wars - we're still sending troops into Iraq/Afgahnistan.

Tougher rules for the 'revolving door of politics' i.e. lobbyist - Still waiting.

So some of these could possibly be blamed on republicans, but this would be the list that is largely on him.  I mean, I kinda wish he would have promised to bomb more innocent people abroad; he may have back tracked on that and saved quite a few lives.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #419 on: January 19, 2017, 06:17:35 AM »
Yeah, this was one of my personal disappointments with the current president. Talked a good game but then back tracked quickly to the opposite.

Can you give us some examples?  I feel like most of Obama's broken campaign promises were due to being stymied by a Republican Congress, but maybe you have a different list than I do.

Talks a good game about the environment - approves pipelines run by massive oil companies to carry product to Mexico, to be used with even fewer emission regulations than the USA.

Syria red-line - back tracked and basically let it drop. Not a good situation there, now.

You can keep your doctor/it'll put $2,500 in every American's pocket - not so much.

End the wars - we're still sending troops into Iraq/Afgahnistan.

Tougher rules for the 'revolving door of politics' i.e. lobbyist - Still waiting.

So some of these could possibly be blamed on republicans, but this would be the list that is largely on him.  I mean, I kinda wish he would have promised to bomb more innocent people abroad; he may have back tracked on that and saved quite a few lives.

I get all your points, but just as an addendum. I don't think ANY president can't be perfect or entirely consistent in any one area.  If you are then you are probably reacting out of rote responses and not analyzing each situation independently.

Despite the pipeline, he has had more environmentally friendly policies than any other president and set aside more natural land than all other combined

Syria, yeah issuing the red line was wrong, he probably knew he would never put troops in there so why take the risk the bluff would be called.

Major combat has ended in Iraq and Afghanistan.  We have primarily advisors and support now.  You may not see a difference but there is a pretty big one.

He issued very strong anti-lobbyist rules for the executive branch which is all he legally could do.  Much less a revolving door than in the past.


You may not like drone strikes, lots of people don't.  I have yet to hear a way to target foreign based terrorists that is better.  Believe me the military hates civilian casualties and we do everything we can to avoid them....but give us a better solution because we don't have one.

GuitarStv

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #420 on: January 19, 2017, 06:55:00 AM »
Believe me the military hates civilian casualties and we do everything we can to avoid them.

Bullshit.

If you want to avoid civilian casualties, stop bombing areas with civilians in them.  That's something you haven't even tried, and would avoid 100% of them.  What you meant to say is that you try not to have too many civilian casualties because they tend to bring to light that you're illegally executing foreign citizens based on secret evidence.  Y'know . . . going to a foreign country and doing exactly the same thing you're accusing terrorists of planning to do in the US.  Hypocrites.


...but give us a better solution because we don't have one.

Sure.  That's easy.  Stop Americas illegal program of murder.

Make the evidence you have against alleged 'terrorists' public when there's enough to hold a trial.  Then work with the governments where the terrorists are to extradite them for trial.  Y'know . . . in a court of law.

- Accountability for actions taken
- Ability of the accused to answer charges
- Assumption of innocence

That's pretty revolutionary stuff.  Why is the military so terrified by it?

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #421 on: January 19, 2017, 07:09:27 AM »
Believe me the military hates civilian casualties and we do everything we can to avoid them.

Bullshit.

If you want to avoid civilian casualties, stop bombing areas with civilians in them.  That's something you haven't even tried, and would avoid 100% of them.  What you meant to say is that you try not to have too many civilian casualties because they tend to bring to light that you're illegally executing foreign citizens based on secret evidence.  Y'know . . . going to a foreign country and doing exactly the same thing you're accusing terrorists of planning to do in the US.  Hypocrites.


...but give us a better solution because we don't have one.

Sure.  That's easy.  Stop Americas illegal program of murder.

Make the evidence you have against alleged 'terrorists' public when there's enough to hold a trial.  Then work with the governments where the terrorists are to extradite them for trial.  Y'know . . . in a court of law.

- Accountability for actions taken
- Ability of the accused to answer charges
- Assumption of innocence

That's pretty revolutionary stuff.  Why is the military so terrified by it?

I agree with all of these principles however the Pakistani government refused to cooperate in bringing Osama Bin Laden to justice, and the US ended up using surreptitious means to extract him.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #422 on: January 19, 2017, 08:29:32 AM »
Believe me the military hates civilian casualties and we do everything we can to avoid them.

Bullshit.

If you want to avoid civilian casualties, stop bombing areas with civilians in them.  That's something you haven't even tried, and would avoid 100% of them.  What you meant to say is that you try not to have too many civilian casualties because they tend to bring to light that you're illegally executing foreign citizens based on secret evidence.  Y'know . . . going to a foreign country and doing exactly the same thing you're accusing terrorists of planning to do in the US.  Hypocrites.


...but give us a better solution because we don't have one.

Sure.  That's easy.  Stop Americas illegal program of murder.

Make the evidence you have against alleged 'terrorists' public when there's enough to hold a trial.  Then work with the governments where the terrorists are to extradite them for trial.  Y'know . . . in a court of law.

- Accountability for actions taken
- Ability of the accused to answer charges
- Assumption of innocence

That's pretty revolutionary stuff.  Why is the military so terrified by it?

Sounds like a plan, we will just let terrorists set up their camps and train away and then when they blow themselves up or shoot up some place we will send a strongly worded letter to the third world country asking that they please go arrest those bad people.  That country with the part time, corrupt and inexperienced military will get right on it just like they have been doing for the last 50 years. 

You do realize the US tends to only act when others can't or won't?


It is amazing once you realize that a good portion of the real world doesn't give a shit about America's interpretation of the law and what they should do.

sol

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #423 on: January 19, 2017, 08:38:19 AM »
going to a foreign country and doing exactly the same thing you're accusing terrorists of planning to do in the US.  Hypocrites.

I don't think anyone gets to claim the moral high ground in warfare.  The fact that we kill innocent people remotely with flying robots instead of up close and personal with suicide vests doesn't really change the fact that we're still killing innocent people.

But I think there's a distinction to be made, in that the US military kills innocent people as collateral damage when trying to kill enemy combatants.  Terrorists who strike on US soil are not making that distinction, they are deliberately targeting innocent people.

Interestingly, terrorists who plant roadside IEDs are doing the exact same thing that drone strikes are doing, and yet the military tries to portray IEDs as cowardly and unfair while drone strikes are supposedly advanced tactical warfare.

Gondolin

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #424 on: January 19, 2017, 09:45:07 AM »
Quote
illegally executing foreign citizens ....illegal program of murder

 "Cease quoting laws to us that have swords girt about us!"


Recently, western militaries have gone further than most in attempting to conform to international standards of conduct. However, I think we all know that warfare and rule of law legalism have never had more than a tenuous relationship.

GuitarStv

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #425 on: January 19, 2017, 10:07:11 AM »
I agree with all of these principles however the Pakistani government refused to cooperate in bringing Osama Bin Laden to justice, and the US ended up using surreptitious means to extract him.

After 9/11, the US opened an illegal torture facility in Guantanamo Bay . . . which is where Bin Laden would have been headed if he were captured alive.  There is a strong case for refusing to extradite someone to a country because of that.  Own your actions America.

I'd argue that of the extrajudicial murders the US has perpetrated, that one was probably the least objectionable one . . . but that doesn't make the actions taken correct.  It doesn't mean that the can of worms opened by the precedent is a good thing though.



Sounds like a plan, we will just let terrorists set up their camps and train away and then when they blow themselves up or shoot up some place we will send a strongly worded letter to the third world country asking that they please go arrest those bad people.  That country with the part time, corrupt and inexperienced military will get right on it just like they have been doing for the last 50 years. 

You do realize the US tends to only act when others can't or won't?

Hang on, do you you mean like when the CIA acted to arm and train Bin Laden in the '80s?  Doing the right thing is sometimes harder, and sometimes means that you'll be at greater potential risk . . . but doing the wrong thing often comes back to bite you in the ass too.



But I think there's a distinction to be made, in that the US military kills innocent people as collateral damage when trying to kill enemy combatants.  Terrorists who strike on US soil are not making that distinction, they are deliberately targeting innocent people.

That's a valid point.  There's a presumed* distinction in intent, if not result.

*Since the US orders it's murders based on secret evidence, we are really just guessing that this is the case.

sol

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #426 on: January 19, 2017, 10:13:25 AM »
Sounds like a plan, we will just let terrorists set up their camps and train away and then when they blow themselves up or shoot up some place

I'm sure you recognize the danger in attacking/executing people BEFORE they do anything wrong.  Lots of US citizens are currently undergoing firearms training, and lots of US citizens have perpetrated mass shootings, but we still don't kill people for training with firearms, right?

Unless they're training with firearms in Pakistan, of course.  Then we must bomb them from 60k feet because we're pretty sure they might someday commit a crime with that training.

*Since the US orders it's murders based on secret evidence, we are really just guessing that this is the case.

I've known enough military officers to believe that as an organization the US military is trying to do the right thing.   They don't always try hard enough, but I don't think they are intentionally evil.  Just accidentally evil, sometimes.

GuitarStv

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #427 on: January 19, 2017, 10:24:29 AM »
*Since the US orders it's murders based on secret evidence, we are really just guessing that this is the case.

I've known enough military officers to believe that as an organization the US military is trying to do the right thing.   They don't always try hard enough, but I don't think they are intentionally evil.  Just accidentally evil, sometimes.

My assumption is that this is probably the case as well.

Given recent intentionally evil actions (Guantanamo Bay torture facility, sending many admittedly innocent people there based on flimsy or no evidence at all) . . .  despite the warm feelings, there really needs to be oversight and accountability.  For that we need facts to be publicly released.

Gondolin

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #428 on: January 19, 2017, 11:52:15 AM »
Quote
Lots of US citizens are currently undergoing firearms training, and lots of US citizens have perpetrated mass shootings, but we still don't kill people for training with firearms, right?

we're pretty sure they might someday commit a crime with that training.

Uh, most of those shooters didn't declare their intent beforehand or they would have been investigated? Whereas ISIS has made their intent and policy very clear?

Are you claiming that trainees at a training facility for an organization that has carried out or claimed responsibility for hundreds of terrorist attacks in the last few years while waging a full scale war against a sovereign government are civilians who should be given the benefit of the doubt because there's a chance they might desert and go home before killing anyone?

In a traditional military you're a combatant as soon as you take the oath and put on the uniform. Why do these guys deserve different treatment? We're "pretty sure" they're going to commit crimes because their organization revels in such crimes and then brag about how many more crimes they're going to commit in the future!

I'm not saying that drone strikes are some great thing but, I don't think you analogy is valid.

accolay

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #429 on: January 19, 2017, 06:33:03 PM »
*Since the US orders it's murders based on secret evidence, we are really just guessing that this is the case.

I think this is an important point. We're always guessing. Impossible to trust those that bear that evidence due to their history of playing both sides. Hopefully the real players somewhere have some integrity.

Since we all know WMDs were in Iraq.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #430 on: January 19, 2017, 07:04:43 PM »
I get all your points, but just as an addendum. I don't think ANY president can't be perfect or entirely consistent in any one area.  If you are then you are probably reacting out of rote responses and not analyzing each situation independently.

No president can be perfect. But we can hold them accountable for their mistakes.

GuitarStv

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #431 on: January 20, 2017, 06:56:20 AM »
I get all your points, but just as an addendum. I don't think ANY president can't be perfect or entirely consistent in any one area.  If you are then you are probably reacting out of rote responses and not analyzing each situation independently.

No president can be perfect. But we can hold them accountable for their mistakes.

No you can't.  A US president has never been held accountable for foreign policy mistakes.

- Buying the Italian elecition of 1948 (Truman)
- Overthrowing the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953 (Eisenhower/Truman)
- Overthrowing the democratically elected government of Guatemala in 1954 (Eisenhower)
- Overthrowing the government of Indonesia because of fears that they would implement democracy in 1957 (Eisenhower)
- Execution of Patrice Lumumba, the first democratically elected leader of the Congo in 1961 (Eisenhower)
- Attempted to fix the democratic election results in Chile, then worked to start a coup in 1970.  By 1973 managed to install Pinochet as dictator. (Nixon)
- Spent 40 billion dollars arming the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, trained multiple groups including al-Qaeda 1979 - 1989 (Regan, Bush, Carter)
- Spent a lot of money training contras to try to topple the Nicaraguan government (Regan, Carter)
- Secretly sold weapons to Iran (which was under an arms embargo) as part of a negotiation to release hostages in Nicaragua. (Regan)
etc.

and that's without even getting into Iraq. . .

golden1

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #432 on: January 20, 2017, 07:11:17 AM »
I feel like what is often overlooked about the Presidency, or any leadership position really, is that when you have to make decisions, sometimes there isn't a good choice and a bad choice, there is just a bad choice and a worse choice.  I think most times when some unpopular decision is made, it is because the alternatives would be even less popular.  It often takes many years in order to see the wisdom of certain decisions.  But we are short term creatures. 

wenchsenior

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #433 on: January 20, 2017, 08:53:57 AM »
Ya don't have to look to far to see why liberals are viewed as out of touch by many Americans - spending so much time on this Identity Politics crap - constantly looking for separate categories instead of unifying themes.

As Bernie Sanders said - "Liberals - America is tired of hearing about your bathrooms as a national issue"

Exactly. Dems need to focus on a message of commonality of action and policies that support equal opportunity, without constantly calling out and emphasizing every subgroup in their herd of constituents.  I mean,  it was awesome when Obama shouted out to scientists AND atheists in one of his first big speeches. I was all, HEY COOL, someone finally noticed my minority group!  But I didn't need to hear that EVER in order to support his policies. And possibly all that shout-out did was further alienate potential Dem voters that hate scientists or atheists, for all I know.

acroy

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #434 on: January 20, 2017, 08:58:24 AM »
..... focus on a message of commonality of action and policies that support equal opportunity, without constantly calling out and emphasizing every subgroup in their herd of constituents.
NYT agrees with you
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-identity-liberalism.html?_r=0
Identity politics was a useful political tool for a while, but encouraged division and navel-gazing, and finally backfired.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Question for the strongly anti-Trump crowd
« Reply #435 on: January 20, 2017, 06:54:49 PM »
..... focus on a message of commonality of action and policies that support equal opportunity, without constantly calling out and emphasizing every subgroup in their herd of constituents.
NYT agrees with you
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-identity-liberalism.html?_r=0
Identity politics was a useful political tool for a while, but encouraged division and navel-gazing, and finally backfired.
Interesting article.  Thanks for sharing.