Poll

Who do you think will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

Donald Trump
105 (29.6%)
Joe Biden
230 (64.8%)
3rd-Party Candidate or Black Swan Event (e.g., Trump or Biden dies)
20 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 353

Author Topic: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?  (Read 138337 times)

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7056
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #150 on: June 23, 2020, 10:50:42 AM »
If Biden defeats Trump where Clinton failed, we'll simply have to conclude that he was a stronger candidate for some reason, although I must acknowledge:

it probably has much more to do with Trump the suitor being more attractive than a Donald Trump now that we've seen what he is actually like as President. I cannot imagine Clinton wanting to put herself through a second campaign against Trump (particularly Trump), who was so willing to slime her. Despite Trump's unpopularity, I suspect he'd beat Clinton again if they matched up in this cycle because of the systematic investments conservative media have been making since the mid-1990's to ensure that she is un-electable.

Truthfully, I wonder why anyone is willing to run ever.

So there are two possible conclusions which could be made should Trump lose in November:
Biden is a stronger candidate than HRC
Trump is much weaker than he was in 2016.

Those are not mutually exclusive.

Herein lies the inherent challenge with ever making comparisions between matchups, be they political or sport.  If A beats B, and then C beats A years later, it doesn't mean that C is better than B, even though many will claim that to be the case.

HRC and Biden are very similar. They both have a lot of experience, have been in government for a long time, and are both super establishment types.

Is Biden a stronger candidate than HRC? No.
Is Trump weaker than in 2016? Yes.

Combined with reason 2 above, in a non-partisan sense, the mood in general in 2016 was for a non-establishment candidate from both sides. Trump fit that bill; HRC didn't. Result: Less enthusiasm for HRC.

Also, she won the popular vote. In some sense, it was a campaign failure to visit certain states again to eke out another 10k voters.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

  • Guest
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #151 on: June 23, 2020, 05:30:20 PM »
I'm backing Hilary this time. It's crazy, I know, but we need a true-believer in the administrative technocratic state to reform it. Our institutions are broken (a problem predating Trump) and we need strong leadership to fix it. Biden is a basement creep.

As a write in......?
There is a lot of time between now and November so who knows what could happen. HC is in third place!

When am I going to learn not to click on random links posted in this forum?  So terribly stupid.  I weep for humanity.
Hey, that betting site at least shows there are some arbitrage opportunities--I think HC is 5% on Betfair. At 100-to-1 you'd almost be crazy not to put some fun-money on Her.

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2075
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #152 on: June 23, 2020, 07:57:51 PM »
I'm usually one of the last people to shout "sexism!" and I'm a dude, but I have to think that played some role in Clinton's loss. I thought the usual double standards that are applied to women were applied to Clinton at the time, at least in a lot of the commentary I heard. You know, the man is assertive, the lady is a bitch; the man is enthusiastic/insistent, the lady is shrill; and so on.

Kyle Schuant

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1314
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #153 on: June 24, 2020, 12:51:30 AM »
I'm usually one of the last people to shout "sexism!" and I'm a dude, but I have to think that played some role in Clinton's loss.
"A restaging of the presidential debates with an actress playing Trump and an actor playing Clinton yielded surprising results."

https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2017/march/trump-clinton-debates-gender-reversal.html

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #154 on: June 24, 2020, 07:24:58 AM »
It's impossible to know for sure with a sample of One, but I always thought the sexism against Clinton that blamed her for her husband's affairs was pretty obvious. The Lewinsky scandal seemed to make Bill stronger in the late 1990's, but it turned a close election against Al Gore then, and seemed to be used to humiliate Sec. Clinton repeatedly during the 2008 and 2016 campaigns.

Kyle Schuant

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1314
  • Location: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #155 on: June 26, 2020, 09:01:16 AM »
Alternately, she just wasn't a great candidate. Her apparent enthusiasm for going to war with Russia also probably didn't help after all those losing foreign conflicts started by Dubya and amped up by Obama, people had had enough.

Biden is not a great candidate either, and will lose.

Wolfpack Mustachian

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1866
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #156 on: June 26, 2020, 09:35:29 AM »
Alternately, she just wasn't a great candidate. Her apparent enthusiasm for going to war with Russia also probably didn't help after all those losing foreign conflicts started by Dubya and amped up by Obama, people had had enough.

Biden is not a great candidate either, and will lose.

I wouldn't put money on your last statement given how things are looking. I'm not saying Biden will for sure win given Trump's uniqueness, but I certainly wouldn't say Biden will lose with confidence.

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1541
  • Age: 38
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #157 on: June 26, 2020, 09:38:54 AM »
Alternately, she just wasn't a great candidate.

This is not a good argument. One can be both not a great candidate, and suffer from the results of sexism.

OurTown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #158 on: June 26, 2020, 12:20:09 PM »
Biden will flip somewhere between 3 to 10 states that Trump won in 2016, roughly in the following order:  MI, PA, WI, FL, AZ, NC, IA, GA, OH, and TX.  Essentially, Trump can't afford to lose more than approximately two of those.  If the election were held today, Biden would win the first six easily and could almost run the table on all ten, although TX would be a photo finish. 

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17498
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #159 on: June 26, 2020, 12:26:34 PM »
Biden will flip somewhere between 3 to 10 states that Trump won in 2016, roughly in the following order:  MI, PA, WI, FL, AZ, NC, IA, GA, OH, and TX.  Essentially, Trump can't afford to lose more than approximately two of those.  If the election were held today, Biden would win the first six easily and could almost run the table on all ten, although TX would be a photo finish.

Of those, he's in deep trouble if he loses FL, OH or PA, and there's no plausible path to retaining the WH without TX.
MOre than four months to go, though.  Given everything else that's happened both with this president and in 2020 this is bound to be one absurd election.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 12:37:05 PM by nereo »

OurTown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #160 on: June 26, 2020, 12:32:37 PM »
Good point, but consider this query:  "Is COVID-19 going to magically disappear in the next four months?"  And how about this one:  "Is the economy going to miraculously recover in the next four months?"  And how about my favorite:  "Will Trump suddenly start acting like a competent mature leader in the next four months?"  If your answers are "no," then things don't get better for Trump by the election, they get worse. 

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7056
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2020, 12:38:27 PM »
Good point, but consider this query:  "Is COVID-19 going to magically disappear in the next four months?"  And how about this one:  "Is the economy going to miraculously recover in the next four months?"  And how about my favorite:  "Will Trump suddenly start acting like a competent mature leader in the next four months?"  If your answers are "no," then things don't get better for Trump by the election, they get worse.

Someone pointed out above that Trump can work up another scandal against Biden. Rudy has all the evidence and will release it any day now!

Or announce a vaccine in late October (even though there isn't one).

Or issue an EO stating that the post office can't handle mail-in ballots. It'd go to the courts but the timing could help him.

Plenty of time for shenanigans.

OurTown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2020, 12:57:22 PM »
All very true, nothing is certain. 

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17498
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #163 on: June 26, 2020, 01:05:31 PM »
I'll place an honorable wager that before the summer is over team Trump begins to attack Biden for some scandal that
  • is not supported by established facts
  • almost no one has even heard of yet
  • is punishable by jail time if true
  • team Trump promises to release previously unknown evidence on "very soon"
GOP-led congresional oversight committee(s) will hold hearings on alleged scandal.
[/list]

This scandal will consume conservative media outlets for weeks, and come with a catchy slogan. Ultimately no conclusive evidence will emerge that this scandal ever occurred (and if it did that it ever involved Joe Biden).

That's my prediction given the past playbook of DJT.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #164 on: June 26, 2020, 01:54:17 PM »
Good point, but consider this query:  "Is COVID-19 going to magically disappear in the next four months?"  And how about this one:  "Is the economy going to miraculously recover in the next four months?"  And how about my favorite:  "Will Trump suddenly start acting like a competent mature leader in the next four months?"  If your answers are "no," then things don't get better for Trump by the election, they get worse.

Someone pointed out above that Trump can work up another scandal against Biden. Rudy has all the evidence and will release it any day now!

Or announce a vaccine in late October (even though there isn't one).

Or issue an EO stating that the post office can't handle mail-in ballots. It'd go to the courts but the timing could help him.

Plenty of time for shenanigans.

He wouldn't need a new one, he'd just need some unfalsifiable resurrection of Hydroxychloroquine.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17498
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #165 on: June 26, 2020, 02:00:31 PM »
Good point, but consider this query:  "Is COVID-19 going to magically disappear in the next four months?"  And how about this one:  "Is the economy going to miraculously recover in the next four months?"  And how about my favorite:  "Will Trump suddenly start acting like a competent mature leader in the next four months?"  If your answers are "no," then things don't get better for Trump by the election, they get worse.

Someone pointed out above that Trump can work up another scandal against Biden. Rudy has all the evidence and will release it any day now!

Or announce a vaccine in late October (even though there isn't one).

Or issue an EO stating that the post office can't handle mail-in ballots. It'd go to the courts but the timing could help him.

Plenty of time for shenanigans.

He wouldn't need a new one, he'd just need some unfalsifiable resurrection of Hydroxychloroquine.

How about:  "President Trump took Hyrdroxychloroquine, and he never got Covid.  It's incredible when you think about it!  Traveling all over and holding rallies and meeting people - online Biden hiding in his basement.  He was probably exposed 50, 100 times and never got Covid.  And he was taking hydroxychloroquine.  And a lot of people are saying, hey, that's incredible.  Maybe there's something there.   I',m not a doctor but it does make me wonder..."

**disclaimer:  I am in now way saying anyone should take hydroxychloroquine to treat or prevent covid.  It's not a treatment, preventative or cure.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #166 on: June 27, 2020, 02:06:51 PM »
Alternately, she just wasn't a great candidate. Her apparent enthusiasm for going to war with Russia also probably didn't help after all those losing foreign conflicts started by Dubya and amped up by Obama, people had had enough.

Biden is not a great candidate either, and will lose.
Clinton was tough on Russia for good reason. That doesn't equate to war. Perhaps a couple folks didn't like Clinton's stance on Russia, but I highly doubt it moved the needle at all. It's about as logical as claiming Trump supporters vote for Trump because Dems say mean things. (sound familiar?)

Biden doesn't need to be a great candidate. He just needs to not be a shit bag. Trump has set the bar that low. Also it looks like even Trump doesn't agree with you now claiming he thinks Biden will be President. Seems you have a lot of faith in King Trump.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 04:45:49 PM by MasterStache »

Jack0Life

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 593
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #167 on: June 27, 2020, 03:26:52 PM »
I'll be honest. I was going to vote for Trump this election.(#1 reason being he hates the CCP as much as I do) but the way he's handling the pandemic, he's going to lose in a landslide.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #168 on: June 29, 2020, 07:05:00 AM »
Can you remind us what the CCP is so that we can comprehend the single issue on which you vote?

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23129
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #169 on: June 29, 2020, 07:09:46 AM »
Can you remind us what the CCP is so that we can comprehend the single issue on which you vote?

Comprehensive Community Planning
Co-ordinated Care Program
Certified Credit Professionals
Certified Compensation Professionals
Canadian Cubesat Program

?

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17498
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #170 on: June 29, 2020, 07:18:57 AM »
Can you remind us what the CCP is so that we can comprehend the single issue on which you vote?

Comprehensive Community Planning
Co-ordinated Care Program
Certified Credit Professionals
Certified Compensation Professionals
Canadian Cubesat Program

?

I misread it the first time as the CCCP.
Aka the USSR. Aka the Soviet Union

In international discussions the CCP often refers to China (the communist party of China. Letters are rearranged due to linguistics)


talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #171 on: June 29, 2020, 07:28:34 AM »
I talk to a lot of people who support Trump because they think he's getting China right (even as he gets many other things wrong).

The current hammer he's taking to our skilled immigration system makes me really question this. If you want to compete against China, you have to invest in RD/Tech, which ultimately means human capital. If you go to any top American Research university, you quickly realize how many foreign students are there, but I cannot feel like Trump is trying to support and grow those programs while banning the H1B visas.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17498
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #172 on: June 29, 2020, 07:43:04 AM »
I talk to a lot of people who support Trump because they think he's getting China right (even as he gets many other things wrong).

The current hammer he's taking to our skilled immigration system makes me really question this. If you want to compete against China, you have to invest in RD/Tech, which ultimately means human capital. If you go to any top American Research university, you quickly realize how many foreign students are there, but I cannot feel like Trump is trying to support and grow those programs while banning the H1B visas.

As someone steeped in academic research, I think Trump's approach to skilled immigration is as counterproductive as it can get.  I've watched firsthand as highly skilled, very intelligent young people forego postdocs and PhDs here because of Trump's immigration policies.

R&D has one of the highest economic returns, and investment returns dividends for decades.  That is driven by highly qualified (HQ) personnel. One of the USA's greatest assets is the number of top-tier research institutions ("R-1").  The names are familiar to almost anyone - MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Cornell, Princeton, Yale, Johns Hopskins etc.  Until relatively recently over 60 of the top 100 global  R-1 instutions were all in the United States.  That's fallen as other countries add their own, but the trend has accelerated first as we've underfunded higher education (largely starting with the Great Recession) but more recently as we've pushed away foreign academics.  In academia the terms are "Brain-Drain/Brain-Gain".  Right now we're experiencing a massive Brain Drain to other countries, when we formerly had a Brain Gain

Unfortunately the effects won't largely be realized for another decade.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #173 on: June 29, 2020, 07:44:22 AM »
I talk to a lot of people who support Trump because they think he's getting China right (even as he gets many other things wrong).

The current hammer he's taking to our skilled immigration system makes me really question this. If you want to compete against China, you have to invest in RD/Tech, which ultimately means human capital. If you go to any top American Research university, you quickly realize how many foreign students are there, but I cannot feel like Trump is trying to support and grow those programs while banning the H1B visas.

Your problem is that you're using logic ( :

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #174 on: June 29, 2020, 08:35:35 AM »
I talk to a lot of people who support Trump because they think he's getting China right (even as he gets many other things wrong).

The current hammer he's taking to our skilled immigration system makes me really question this. If you want to compete against China, you have to invest in RD/Tech, which ultimately means human capital. If you go to any top American Research university, you quickly realize how many foreign students are there, but I cannot feel like Trump is trying to support and grow those programs while banning the H1B visas.

As someone steeped in academic research, I think Trump's approach to skilled immigration is as counterproductive as it can get.  I've watched firsthand as highly skilled, very intelligent young people forego postdocs and PhDs here because of Trump's immigration policies.

R&D has one of the highest economic returns, and investment returns dividends for decades.  That is driven by highly qualified (HQ) personnel. One of the USA's greatest assets is the number of top-tier research institutions ("R-1").  The names are familiar to almost anyone - MIT, Stanford, Harvard, Cornell, Princeton, Yale, Johns Hopskins etc.  Until relatively recently over 60 of the top 100 global  R-1 instutions were all in the United States.  That's fallen as other countries add their own, but the trend has accelerated first as we've underfunded higher education (largely starting with the Great Recession) but more recently as we've pushed away foreign academics.  In academia the terms are "Brain-Drain/Brain-Gain".  Right now we're experiencing a massive Brain Drain to other countries, when we formerly had a Brain Gain

Unfortunately the effects won't largely be realized for another decade.

+1

If you look at what H1B visa holders actually do, nearly all of them are in R/D or engineering or other "high skill" jobs. Which won't be filled by Americans because there aren't enough Americans who can/will do them.

The idea that by stopping H1B visas is somehow going to add jobs is silly when you look at who actually holds H1Bs. Trump is completely making a vote grab by assuming people who know enough to realize the implications of the H1B ban already won't vote for him, and people who aren't already voting against him will think it's protecting American jobs.

It's just foolish on his part and complete political grandstanding.

talltexan

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5344
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #175 on: June 29, 2020, 09:12:22 AM »
I talk to a lot of people who support Trump because they think he's getting China right (even as he gets many other things wrong).

The current hammer he's taking to our skilled immigration system makes me really question this. If you want to compete against China, you have to invest in RD/Tech, which ultimately means human capital. If you go to any top American Research university, you quickly realize how many foreign students are there, but I cannot feel like Trump is trying to support and grow those programs while banning the H1B visas.

Your problem is that you're using logic ( :

If my biggest crime is using logic, send them to arrest me right away!!!!

Tyler durden

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #176 on: June 29, 2020, 09:25:14 AM »
Regarding skilled immigration and H1B:

It’s an easy argument why we have seasonal workers in the US - “ Americans won’t do those jobs “. I don’t totally agree but let’s leave that aside.

My real question is in a country with as many people as we have and the caliber of higher education why are so many foreign workers needed in IT and academia etc ? Something isn’t working. Either culturally people don’t go into STEM and choose under water basket weaving , companies are gaming the H1B system which I have read happens but don’t know how wide spread or academia is failing us or other ? 

What’s the root cause for needing outside help ?

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1541
  • Age: 38
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #177 on: June 29, 2020, 09:33:55 AM »
What’s the root cause for needing outside help ?

You are missing the point. We want all the smart people from every country to come here. Or as close to that ideal as we can get. That's how we ensure future technological/economic domination.

There's no reason to believe that smart Americans are truly unable to find jobs; it's not an "us vs them" scenario. We'd simply end up with a greater percentage of the world's research / tech companies being America-based, instead of foreign.

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #178 on: June 29, 2020, 09:35:19 AM »
Regarding skilled immigration and H1B:

It’s an easy argument why we have seasonal workers in the US - “ Americans won’t do those jobs “. I don’t totally agree but let’s leave that aside.

My real question is in a country with as many people as we have and the caliber of higher education why are so many foreign workers needed in IT and academia etc ? Something isn’t working. Either culturally people don’t go into STEM and choose under water basket weaving , companies are gaming the H1B system which I have read happens but don’t know how wide spread or academia is failing us or other ? 

What’s the root cause for needing outside help ?

Competition.

Imagine for a second that all the immigrant scientists who worked for Manhattan project (https://www.atomicheritage.org/article/scientist-refugees-and-manhattan-project#:~:text=The%20large%20number%20of%20refugees,during%20the%20war%20its%20unique) had instead stayed where they were. What do you think the history would have turned out like in that case?

Now, it is the same competition in AI and biotech. Based on his immigration policies, Trump and the right wing clearly wants China to win. Who do you want to win?

Yes, there is abuse in H1B visas. How about you weigh pros and cons? How much H1B abuse will it take to negate the benefits of US winning the AI/biotech competition instead of China??

Innovation is not just a fixed amount of work that needs done. It's a competition. In economics, the Lump of Labor fallacy generally covers this issue and a lot of others (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy).

<edited to add>
As a completely separate topic, there is a lot of abuse in H1. I think it is more logical to scrap that program and instead make the process of getting GC's faster and easier so that companies sponsor actual immigrants with full rights rather than "almost indentured servants" that H1's are. That will also resolve the "underpaid and exploited" complaint and help BOTH the immigrants and the americans competing with them.
But none of the above is even half as important as helping American innovation that high-skilled immigration does. So exploited "to be immigrants" (=H1B) are still better for US than no immigrants at all. Best is, of course, immigrants with full rights.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 09:42:00 AM by ctuser1 »

ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #179 on: June 29, 2020, 09:40:42 AM »
Regarding skilled immigration and H1B:

It’s an easy argument why we have seasonal workers in the US - “ Americans won’t do those jobs “. I don’t totally agree but let’s leave that aside.

My real question is in a country with as many people as we have and the caliber of higher education why are so many foreign workers needed in IT and academia etc ? Something isn’t working. Either culturally people don’t go into STEM and choose under water basket weaving , companies are gaming the H1B system which I have read happens but don’t know how wide spread or academia is failing us or other ? 

What’s the root cause for needing outside help ?

Because STEM is hard?

And you are right. Americans will totally do the jobs, because they want the big paychecks. But the problem is finding people who both want + can do the jobs effectively.

Keep in mind that H1B represents a relatively small percentage of our workers but in a lot of cases, represent the top percentages of workers in countries much larger than the USA by population.

You are missing the point. We want all the smart people from every country to come here. Or as close to that ideal as we can get. That's how we ensure future technological/economic domination.

There's no reason to believe that smart Americans are truly unable to find jobs; it's not an "us vs them" scenario. We'd simply end up with a greater percentage of the world's research / tech companies being America-based, instead of foreign.

I think people don't realize how many tech openings there are in most areas in the USA right now. There are a lot more job openings, vs available workers. Well, perhaps covid changed this but until a few months ago there is a huge shortage of qualified software folks. That means American companies want to hire more software folks but can't.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17498
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #180 on: June 29, 2020, 09:49:58 AM »
Regarding skilled immigration and H1B:

It’s an easy argument why we have seasonal workers in the US - “ Americans won’t do those jobs “. I don’t totally agree but let’s leave that aside.

My real question is in a country with as many people as we have and the caliber of higher education why are so many foreign workers needed in IT and academia etc ? Something isn’t working. Either culturally people don’t go into STEM and choose under water basket weaving , companies are gaming the H1B system which I have read happens but don’t know how wide spread or academia is failing us or other ? 

What’s the root cause for needing outside help ?

One thing that's missed when people start talking about "american's won't/can't do those jobs" is that there's not an inherent limitation on how many R&D people a country can employ (at least not from a practical standpoint).  Compare that to, say, migrant farm workers.  There's only so many strawberry pickers needed before all the strawberries are picked.  But research is so broad and 'feeds on past research' that we have never been in a situation where we've run out of pathways to explore.  Funding and people are ALWAYS the limiting resources, and as I mentioned above funding R&D has one of the highest returns on investment, period.

For-profit companies almost always have a hard time finding and filling positions, because they require an enormous amount of specialization in a very exact field which few have.  Universities and not-for-profit institutions will take as many HQ appicants as they have space for, but are hindered by shrinking budgets and problems recruiting outside the US.

You did hit on a systemic problem with k-12 education; by almost every metric the US is not doing as good a job educating our children as most other developed countries.  This also needs to be addressed. But when it comes to higher education, we can attract the best and brightest from other countries, or we can push them away.  AT the same time we need to develop and retain our own citizens.  To an astonishing degree this also isn't happening (and I'm just one example) - more and more Americans are chosing to do their PhDs and Post-Docs abroad, largely because we are finding more and better opportunities outside of the US.

Tyler durden

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #181 on: June 29, 2020, 10:10:02 AM »
What’s the root cause for needing outside help ?

You are missing the point. We want all the smart people from every country to come here. Or as close to that ideal as we can get. That's how we ensure future technological/economic domination.

There's no reason to believe that smart Americans are truly unable to find jobs; it's not an "us vs them" scenario. We'd simply end up with a greater percentage of the world's research / tech companies being America-based, instead of foreign.

So part of this is my lack of understanding around the H1B program. Having top talent in the US from around the globe is hugely beneficial to the US. Which I like if course.

My quick google search shows me H1B can be for lawyers / healthcare workers / university professors and accountants and a few others.

So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

Compared to the research scientists at a top university working on AI. That does advance us.

Again I think there is a core problem if we can’t fill lawyers accountants and general practitioners with citizens.

Better question - what are these other counties doing right where they are churning out more doctors than they need ?

Does the H1B scope and process need some re tooling ?


ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #182 on: June 29, 2020, 10:26:42 AM »
I'm not sherr, so I can't speak for him. But I wanted to answer your questions to the best of my ability anyway.

So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.
Compared to the research scientists at a top university working on AI. That does advance us.
Innovation can happen from anywhere, not necessarily from a research lab.
Pandemic is the theme of the day. Imagine the difference a top quality doctor can make for the world if a novel Zoonotic virus breaks out in the rural area where that immigrant (or native) doctor is practicing - early warning and such.
I think you are underestimating the importance of day-to-day innovations. Vast majority of innovations are of this variety, and not big-nobel-prize-winning-discovery kind. You can't sustain an innovation ecosystem without the massive "day to day" practical innovations supporting the "research labs". US has this ecosystem, as far as I know - NONE of the other countries do, at least not to the same degree as US.

Again I think there is a core problem if we can’t fill lawyers accountants and general practitioners with citizens.
You sure can design an immigration system around this premise. Many countries (e.g. Canada up in the north, which admits almost double the number of immigrants per capita) tightly control what jobs/professions they want to source as immigrants. US currently does things differently - it lets markets and employers dictate what they want as long as they can substantiate the need in some way or the other (Note: even if they are playing legal games, the fact that they are spending so much money and waiting to go through the process must mean they really want the immigrant worker). Talk to American and Canadian immigrants and I think you will conclude that the market-driven system is far superior than the "control by legislation" one.

You never lose by bringing in capable people. Cite: Lump of labor fallacy.

Better question - what are these other counties doing right where they are churning out more doctors than they need ?
They are not. How much innovation currently comes out of India and China vs. US? How do the healthcare systems compare?
Having worked with people from everywhere, an average American University graduate (of any ancestry) tends to be more capable than the average native-but-still-in-India University Graduate. Same for China.

But the US immigration system lets America pick their best. Why not do it? Why break what you have going for you here?


Does the H1B scope and process need some re tooling ?
Yes. But not for the reasons immigration restrictionists want you to think.


 

« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 10:33:20 AM by ctuser1 »

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1541
  • Age: 38
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #183 on: June 29, 2020, 10:41:32 AM »
So part of this is my lack of understanding around the H1B program. Having top talent in the US from around the globe is hugely beneficial to the US. Which I like if course.

My quick google search shows me H1B can be for lawyers / healthcare workers / university professors and accountants and a few others.

So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

Compared to the research scientists at a top university working on AI. That does advance us.

Again I think there is a core problem if we can’t fill lawyers accountants and general practitioners with citizens.

Better question - what are these other counties doing right where they are churning out more doctors than they need ?

Does the H1B scope and process need some re tooling ?

So we've moved from worrying about H1B visas replacing American STEM workers to worrying about H1B visas replacing American non-STEM workers? Okay...

Well to answer your first direct question, the number of American doctors has been intentionally limited in order to keep their salaries high.

To answer your second question: that's a meaningless question. You can always argue that anything needs some "scope and process retooling".

But to answer your general point, I simply disagree that importing non-STEM high-education professionals is undesirable. There is no shortage of work for "smart people" in this country. If a greater percentage of our lawyer pool is made up of immigrants, that simply frees up that portion of our population to pursue those "AI research jobs" that you find desirable. Or put another way, if the lawyering profession looks over-saturated then more aspiring college students will go a different direction.

You claim that bringing an Indian doctor in to provide medical services in a rural community "does nothing to advance us", which I disagree with. Rural people contribute to the economy too, and them living longer, healthier, more productive lives would definitely help advance us. But regardless, what's the downside to bringing them in?

If you want to argue that we "shouldn't need" the non-STEM H1B visas, fine, fix the fact that we apparently do need them before you start complaining about the visa program.

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #184 on: June 29, 2020, 10:52:25 AM »
So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

It's tough to find doctors who want to run a rural practice. Much of this actually stems from our education system. Graduating doctors are routinely riddled with 6 figure student loan debt. This actually discourages becoming a PCP in rural areas and encourages moving into more specialized medicine because of the pay discrepancy. So it actually does help to "advance us." It sure would be nice if we could find a way to reduce the cost of education. But you know, socialism and all.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17498
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #185 on: June 29, 2020, 11:01:00 AM »
So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

It's tough to find doctors who want to run a rural practice. Much of this actually stems from our education system. Graduating doctors are routinely riddled with 6 figure student loan debt. This actually discourages becoming a PCP in rural areas and encourages moving into more specialized medicine because of the pay discrepancy. So it actually does help to "advance us." It sure would be nice if we could find a way to reduce the cost of education. But you know, socialism and all.

I find it odd that you would assume providing healthcare does nothing to advance us.  Quality health care is another one of the great multipliers.  Think about it this way:  People who can get healthcare near where they live are sick less often and able to work more.  That means they are more productive and cost less.  Spread this out across hundreds of patients in a given rural area and the advancement can be substantial.

It's also a key reason why Bill and Melinda Gates have decided the greatest use of their sizable fortune is to improve healthcare in the most needing of locations (typically in develiping countries, but also here in the US). 

Tyler durden

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #186 on: June 29, 2020, 01:34:18 PM »
So part of this is my lack of understanding around the H1B program. Having top talent in the US from around the globe is hugely beneficial to the US. Which I like if course.

My quick google search shows me H1B can be for lawyers / healthcare workers / university professors and accountants and a few others.

So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

Compared to the research scientists at a top university working on AI. That does advance us.

Again I think there is a core problem if we can’t fill lawyers accountants and general practitioners with citizens.

Better question - what are these other counties doing right where they are churning out more doctors than they need ?

Does the H1B scope and process need some re tooling ?

So we've moved from worrying about H1B visas replacing American STEM workers to worrying about H1B visas replacing American non-STEM workers? Okay...

Well to answer your first direct question, the number of American doctors has been intentionally limited in order to keep their salaries high.

To answer your second question: that's a meaningless question. You can always argue that anything needs some "scope and process retooling".

But to answer your general point, I simply disagree that importing non-STEM high-education professionals is undesirable. There is no shortage of work for "smart people" in this country. If a greater percentage of our lawyer pool is made up of immigrants, that simply frees up that portion of our population to pursue those "AI research jobs" that you find desirable. Or put another way, if the lawyering profession looks over-saturated then more aspiring college students will go a different direction.

You claim that bringing an Indian doctor in to provide medical services in a rural community "does nothing to advance us", which I disagree with. Rural people contribute to the economy too, and them living longer, healthier, more productive lives would definitely help advance us. But regardless, what's the downside to bringing them in?

If you want to argue that we "shouldn't need" the non-STEM H1B visas, fine, fix the fact that we apparently do need them before you start complaining about the visa program.

“No shortage of work in this country for smart people “?

You must come from a very privileged placed to say something like that

sherr

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1541
  • Age: 38
  • Location: North Carolina, USA
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #187 on: June 29, 2020, 01:38:20 PM »
“No shortage of work in this country for smart people “?

You must come from a very privileged placed to say something like that

If you consider North Carolina a particularly privileged place. Before the pandemic the US's unemployment rate was, what? 3.5%? I think it what I said is the general experience, and that you must come from a particularly disprivileged place if you disagree.

Tyler durden

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #188 on: June 29, 2020, 01:39:15 PM »
So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

It's tough to find doctors who want to run a rural practice. Much of this actually stems from our education system. Graduating doctors are routinely riddled with 6 figure student loan debt. This actually discourages becoming a PCP in rural areas and encourages moving into more specialized medicine because of the pay discrepancy. So it actually does help to "advance us." It sure would be nice if we could find a way to reduce the cost of education. But you know, socialism and all.

Yes it is tough to find doctors. Why? Fix it is my point.

You like being dependent on other countries ? How’s that working out with the pandemic ? China hoarded supplies when they found out and our drugs supply is contingent on them. Why are people so attracted to being dependent on other countries.  What’s the allure ?

Socialism ? Huh ? I don’t get your reference

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17498
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #189 on: June 29, 2020, 01:51:53 PM »
So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

It's tough to find doctors who want to run a rural practice. Much of this actually stems from our education system. Graduating doctors are routinely riddled with 6 figure student loan debt. This actually discourages becoming a PCP in rural areas and encourages moving into more specialized medicine because of the pay discrepancy. So it actually does help to "advance us." It sure would be nice if we could find a way to reduce the cost of education. But you know, socialism and all.

Yes it is tough to find doctors. Why? Fix it is my point.

You like being dependent on other countries ? How’s that working out with the pandemic ? China hoarded supplies when they found out and our drugs supply is contingent on them. Why are people so attracted to being dependent on other countries.  What’s the allure ?

Socialism ? Huh ? I don’t get your reference

I think you are skipping over the broader point.  We BENEFIT from having highly skilled individuals move to this country.  All of the early years spent educating these individuals are already paid for by their home country, whereas we get all the positive output from their working years.




Tyler durden

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #190 on: June 29, 2020, 03:15:23 PM »
So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

It's tough to find doctors who want to run a rural practice. Much of this actually stems from our education system. Graduating doctors are routinely riddled with 6 figure student loan debt. This actually discourages becoming a PCP in rural areas and encourages moving into more specialized medicine because of the pay discrepancy. So it actually does help to "advance us." It sure would be nice if we could find a way to reduce the cost of education. But you know, socialism and all.

Yes it is tough to find doctors. Why? Fix it is my point.

You like being dependent on other countries ? How’s that working out with the pandemic ? China hoarded supplies when they found out and our drugs supply is contingent on them. Why are people so attracted to being dependent on other countries.  What’s the allure ?

Socialism ? Huh ? I don’t get your reference

I think you are skipping over the broader point.  We BENEFIT from having highly skilled individuals move to this country.  All of the early years spent educating these individuals are already paid for by their home country, whereas we get all the positive output from their working years.

We do benefit your right. Everything we do should be looked at through the prism  of what benefits US citizens. I’m not arguing against H1B visas only saying the fact we have them seems to be exposing some kind of underlying flaw in our own system.

If johnnie or jannie could graduate with a CPA or in a STEM field instead of 12 century French poetry we might have more citizens in lucrative careers and less people struggling. We graduate 4 million adults every year. Something seems off to me if we need to import lawyers or accountants.

It was mentioned up thread that we have a brain drain. Not questioning the validity of the claim but where are out young talented kids going? Or is it we see less influx of “brain” here from other countries ? Again back to square one of something off in the culture that we are graduating 4 million per year yet can fill an accounting job.


ender

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7402
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #191 on: June 29, 2020, 03:33:25 PM »
We do benefit your right. Everything we do should be looked at through the prism  of what benefits US citizens. I’m not arguing against H1B visas only saying the fact we have them seems to be exposing some kind of underlying flaw in our own system.

If johnnie or jannie could graduate with a CPA or in a STEM field instead of 12 century French poetry we might have more citizens in lucrative careers and less people struggling. We graduate 4 million adults every year. Something seems off to me if we need to import lawyers or accountants.

It was mentioned up thread that we have a brain drain. Not questioning the validity of the claim but where are out young talented kids going? Or is it we see less influx of “brain” here from other countries ? Again back to square one of something off in the culture that we are graduating 4 million per year yet can fill an accounting job.

I'm not really sure it does.

The USA has 328M people. India and China combined are around 2.6M people, around 8x as many. For the USA, it completely benefits us to allow the top select few people in those countries (amongst others, but many/most H1Bs come from there) to come here and work. Arguably it's a huge bonus for the USA when the best and brightest of such a large percentage of the world population want to be here working on US soil for American countries.

That is absolutely a benefit to the average US citizen. Even if we're graduating as many as we "need" for these professions, it's still beneficial for us to supplement our entire demographic of professionals with the best of other countries (unless I guess, someone thinks it's not to our advantage to have their best scientists/engineers work here benefiting us?).

Should our educational system have reform too so the USA can graduate more professionals? Sure. But that's a separate and different question than "does the H1B program benefit Americans?" -- the answer to both distinct questions is an emphatic "yes."

Tyler durden

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #192 on: June 29, 2020, 04:19:22 PM »
We do benefit your right. Everything we do should be looked at through the prism  of what benefits US citizens. I’m not arguing against H1B visas only saying the fact we have them seems to be exposing some kind of underlying flaw in our own system.

If johnnie or jannie could graduate with a CPA or in a STEM field instead of 12 century French poetry we might have more citizens in lucrative careers and less people struggling. We graduate 4 million adults every year. Something seems off to me if we need to import lawyers or accountants.

It was mentioned up thread that we have a brain drain. Not questioning the validity of the claim but where are out young talented kids going? Or is it we see less influx of “brain” here from other countries ? Again back to square one of something off in the culture that we are graduating 4 million per year yet can fill an accounting job.

I'm not really sure it does.

The USA has 328M people. India and China combined are around 2.6M people, around 8x as many. For the USA, it completely benefits us to allow the top select few people in those countries (amongst others, but many/most H1Bs come from there) to come here and work. Arguably it's a huge bonus for the USA when the best and brightest of such a large percentage of the world population want to be here working on US soil for American countries.

That is absolutely a benefit to the average US citizen. Even if we're graduating as many as we "need" for these professions, it's still beneficial for us to supplement our entire demographic of professionals with the best of other countries (unless I guess, someone thinks it's not to our advantage to have their best scientists/engineers work here benefiting us?).

Should our educational system have reform too so the USA can graduate more professionals? Sure. But that's a separate and different question than "does the H1B program benefit Americans?" -- the answer to both distinct questions is an emphatic "yes."

Yep. I’m all in on that.

Use that system to benefit the US and retool or education system at the same time. Seems win win. I’d feel a little callous if we didn’t recognize some people here who get displaced by this. There was a big story about Disney some years back firing IT people to either hire over seas or bring in H1B. But in any system there always issues to fix and refine.

BicycleB

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5263
  • Location: Coolest Neighborhood on Earth, They Say
  • Older than the internet, but not wiser... yet
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #193 on: June 29, 2020, 04:57:58 PM »
Having the most skilled people here is going to better for us as a country than having them somewhere else.

Even our own IT people benefit if the "foreign" competitor moves here, because here they're paid closer to a US wage than in Bangalore. If we opened up immigration so any talented person could stay, they'd be paid even closer to US wages because they wouldn't be under the company's thumb. Both productivity and our workers would benefit.

We shouldn't be afraid. Our skilled people can compete. Bring in the other skilled people, it makes our country stronger.

Personally I think country-by-country should only be a secondary lens. The best perspective is global - we all benefit when labor, not just capital, can move where it has best bang for the buck. Again, we should welcome talented people and be thrilled they want to be here.

DoubleDown

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2075
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #194 on: June 29, 2020, 05:19:35 PM »
Idunno though, I recall when I applied to graduate school (decades ago, but AFAIK it's the same or worse) that I was competing against mostly international students. And I was fortunate to get accepted into a highly competitive program at a top university, but when the school year started, I noted I was in the "minority" as a US citizen. Most of the people admitted were from foreign countries. And it's the same at many of the top US universities.

I see that as a problem in many ways:
  • Every slot given to an international students in a top academic program is a slot for which a US citizen will be turned away
  • A large portion of the international students will not remain in the US; they receive their education, and go back to their home country
  • International students are often given preferential enrollment, because they will generally be paying top dollar compared to a US citizen who may be paying in-state tuition at a public university, or they will be denied any kind of financial aid and thus pay full freight compared to a need-based US student

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #195 on: June 29, 2020, 05:42:49 PM »
I've changed my mind.

Now  I think Trump will be defeated in November.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 06:59:45 PM by John Galt incarnate! »

ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #196 on: June 29, 2020, 06:25:10 PM »
Idunno though, I recall when I applied to graduate school (decades ago, but AFAIK it's the same or worse) that I was competing against mostly international students. And I was fortunate to get accepted into a highly competitive program at a top university, but when the school year started, I noted I was in the "minority" as a US citizen. Most of the people admitted were from foreign countries. And it's the same at many of the top US universities.

I see that as a problem in many ways:
  • Every slot given to an international students in a top academic program is a slot for which a US citizen will be turned away
  • A large portion of the international students will not remain in the US; they receive their education, and go back to their home country
  • International students are often given preferential enrollment, because they will generally be paying top dollar compared to a US citizen who may be paying in-state tuition at a public university, or they will be denied any kind of financial aid and thus pay full freight compared to a need-based US student

All STEM graduate programs I know of generally fund the degree 100% for competitive students via fellowship (rare), TA or RA. The "top" foreign students we should want to retain are generally very competitive - so would generally pay $0 out of pocket for their graduate degree.

I have known tens (if not > 100) STEM graduate students fairly closely. STEM graduate students are mostly foreign-born these days - this set reflects that. Out of ALL of them, there were - maybe - 5 who did not get a 100% free ride. If anyone is paying full fare in an R1 institution for a STEM degree, and not funding the education and living cost via TA/RA/fellowships, then that would generally count as a black mark against his resume.

When those "free-ride" STEM students have to leave US after their degree due to restrictive immigration policies, that counts as one of the stupidest public policy blunders for the US in my book.

Now - if someone was not competitive enough to get TA/RA/fellowship even in a STEM graduate program - well, then I am not sure how much "skills" he will bring to the table. I still think even "low skilled" immigration is a net plus for the economy. But that is a different discussion.

Note: funding for undergrad programs operate very differently compared to grad programs. So the above does not apply for undergrad students.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 06:29:02 PM by ctuser1 »

MasterStache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2912
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #197 on: June 29, 2020, 06:57:02 PM »
So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

It's tough to find doctors who want to run a rural practice. Much of this actually stems from our education system. Graduating doctors are routinely riddled with 6 figure student loan debt. This actually discourages becoming a PCP in rural areas and encourages moving into more specialized medicine because of the pay discrepancy. So it actually does help to "advance us." It sure would be nice if we could find a way to reduce the cost of education. But you know, socialism and all.

Yes it is tough to find doctors. Why? Fix it is my point.

You like being dependent on other countries ? How’s that working out with the pandemic ? China hoarded supplies when they found out and our drugs supply is contingent on them. Why are people so attracted to being dependent on other countries.  What’s the allure ?

Socialism ? Huh ? I don’t get your reference
Actually I don't see people based on nationality. I just see people. I don't really care what country the doctors come from as long as everyone is receiving affordable quality care. If you want to "fix it" then start by making education cheaper. The socialism reference was because folks think reducing the cost of education is socialism.   

Tyler durden

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 374
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #198 on: June 29, 2020, 07:20:39 PM »
So for example brining in an Indian doctor to practice medicine in a rural area is great for the US. It is helpful But it does nothing to advance us. Nothing.

It's tough to find doctors who want to run a rural practice. Much of this actually stems from our education system. Graduating doctors are routinely riddled with 6 figure student loan debt. This actually discourages becoming a PCP in rural areas and encourages moving into more specialized medicine because of the pay discrepancy. So it actually does help to "advance us." It sure would be nice if we could find a way to reduce the cost of education. But you know, socialism and all.

Yes it is tough to find doctors. Why? Fix it is my point.

You like being dependent on other countries ? How’s that working out with the pandemic ? China hoarded supplies when they found out and our drugs supply is contingent on them. Why are people so attracted to being dependent on other countries.  What’s the allure ?

Socialism ? Huh ? I don’t get your reference
Actually I don't see people based on nationality. I just see people. I don't really care what country the doctors come from as long as everyone is receiving affordable quality care. If you want to "fix it" then start by making education cheaper. The socialism reference was because folks think reducing the cost of education is socialism.   

You won’t see me claiming socialism for lowering college costs. I think that deserves it one thread. I would say throwing money at it hasn’t worked. Someone just mentioned foreign students getting a full ride... is that driving up college costs? I don’t have a great answer here.



ctuser1

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1741
Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #199 on: June 29, 2020, 07:41:07 PM »
Someone just mentioned foreign students getting a full ride... is that driving up college costs?

No.

Fellowship is rare and generally funded by endowment(s) not related to college costs.

TA = Teaching Assistantship, is how universities keep teaching costs low. Much cheaper to pay tuition for one student than to hire a faculty.

RA = Research Assistantship, these are generally externally funded positions based on external research grants. Not just that - RA/Post-Docs are the foot soldiers of all american academic research. That new cancer drug that will earn billions for the pharma company - well 80% of the basic science "legwork" research needed for that was done by paid post docs and RA's.

I used the word "full ride" in a sarcastic way. Think of them as highly educated and highly underpaid indentured workers who need to work 20 hours a day. Some of them (in the right fields) will triple their income and halve their workload once they get the degree and go to work in the industry.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 07:44:34 PM by ctuser1 »