Poll

Who do you think will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

Donald Trump
105 (29.6%)
Joe Biden
230 (64.8%)
3rd-Party Candidate or Black Swan Event (e.g., Trump or Biden dies)
20 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 353

Author Topic: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?  (Read 139239 times)

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1900 on: November 23, 2020, 12:08:11 PM »
@OtherJen, I think you dropped a word.

"wait the 40-max period specified in law..."

Did you mean 40 DAY max period?

The two Republicans on Michigan's board of canvassers are arguing with a former state director of elections over why they can't adjourn and wait the 40-max period specified in law, and what the state Supreme Court meant by the word "shall."

Jesus.

Yes. Sorry.

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1901 on: November 23, 2020, 12:29:38 PM »
I found a live stream from the Detroit Free Press and watching now.  Glad to see some voices of reason that they need to do their duty and certify and that audits can happen to improve things but certification is not the point to create drama.

I'll bet that Shinkle votes No on certification. I would have taken that bet even before the meeting started, but his questions and demeanor support that impression. Fortunately, I don't get the impression that Van Langevelde is inclined to vote No.

caracarn

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1902 on: November 23, 2020, 01:52:54 PM »
I found a live stream from the Detroit Free Press and watching now.  Glad to see some voices of reason that they need to do their duty and certify and that audits can happen to improve things but certification is not the point to create drama.

I'll bet that Shinkle votes No on certification. I would have taken that bet even before the meeting started, but his questions and demeanor support that impression. Fortunately, I don't get the impression that Van Langevelde is inclined to vote No.
I agree.  During the exchange with Jones's attorney that seemed very clear.  This has to be hard to watch as a Michigander.  As an Ohioan I am heartbroken with the divisiveness of the process and the continued allegations.  It seems the board made clear the audit takes place after certification so let them certify and then you will find out what happened, which we all know is nothing, just normal process where small errors happen but not 154,000 of them that all fall in one direction.  Why do people not understand if there was something happening all the records would be pristine.  Why draw attention to fraud?  You would think smart people would get this.  And the network expert/ex-congressman.  As an IT person myself I am embarrassed with his claims and again they can be looked into later as the process allows, but not submitting your claims to the AGs office when you think something illegal may be occurring?  Might be a good IT person but clearly has no understanding of the legal process.  Or maybe because he does not want to be in court alleging fraud without proof?  Wonder which is more likely?

sherr

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1903 on: November 23, 2020, 02:15:48 PM »
As an Ohioan I am heartbroken with the divisiveness of the process and the continued allegations.  It seems the board made clear the audit takes place after certification so let them certify and then you will find out what happened, which we all know is nothing, just normal process where small errors happen but not 154,000 of them that all fall in one direction.  Why do people not understand if there was something happening all the records would be pristine.  Why draw attention to fraud?  You would think smart people would get this.  And the network expert/ex-congressman.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

You're giving them too much credit. They all know there is no fraud. But they also know that if they want to have a future in the Republican party they have to protest as loudly as possible and as often as possible about how the election "may have been" stolen. The grandstanding is the point.

caracarn

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1904 on: November 23, 2020, 02:17:30 PM »
As an Ohioan I am heartbroken with the divisiveness of the process and the continued allegations.  It seems the board made clear the audit takes place after certification so let them certify and then you will find out what happened, which we all know is nothing, just normal process where small errors happen but not 154,000 of them that all fall in one direction.  Why do people not understand if there was something happening all the records would be pristine.  Why draw attention to fraud?  You would think smart people would get this.  And the network expert/ex-congressman.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

You're giving them too much credit. They all know there is no fraud. But they also know that if they want to have a future in the Republican party they have to protest as loudly as possible and as often as possible about how the election "may have been" stolen. The grandstanding is the point.
If the future in a party demands lying, then how sorry an example of humans are the future Republicans.

caracarn

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1905 on: November 23, 2020, 02:20:06 PM »
I am very, very impressed by the public comment, and also find it fascinating that all the "mad" Republicans are not present in comment.  ONLY party representatives are playing the game.  Seems real people are not stupid enough to go on public record perpetrating this farce.

sui generis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1906 on: November 23, 2020, 04:25:23 PM »
GSA finally gives in and will begin the formal transition process: https://mobile.twitter.com/mkraju/status/1331011299707408385/photo/1

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1907 on: November 23, 2020, 04:29:47 PM »
I found a live stream from the Detroit Free Press and watching now.  Glad to see some voices of reason that they need to do their duty and certify and that audits can happen to improve things but certification is not the point to create drama.

I'll bet that Shinkle votes No on certification. I would have taken that bet even before the meeting started, but his questions and demeanor support that impression. Fortunately, I don't get the impression that Van Langevelde is inclined to vote No.
I agree.  During the exchange with Jones's attorney that seemed very clear.  This has to be hard to watch as a Michigander.  As an Ohioan I am heartbroken with the divisiveness of the process and the continued allegations.  It seems the board made clear the audit takes place after certification so let them certify and then you will find out what happened, which we all know is nothing, just normal process where small errors happen but not 154,000 of them that all fall in one direction.  Why do people not understand if there was something happening all the records would be pristine.  Why draw attention to fraud?  You would think smart people would get this.  And the network expert/ex-congressman.  As an IT person myself I am embarrassed with his claims and again they can be looked into later as the process allows, but not submitting your claims to the AGs office when you think something illegal may be occurring?  Might be a good IT person but clearly has no understanding of the legal process.  Or maybe because he does not want to be in court alleging fraud without proof?  Wonder which is more likely?

It's been hard both as a Wayne County resident and an election worker. I know how hard Detroit worked to get things right. Obviously errors happened (and in both red and blue counties), but to assume that errors = fraud is just sad.

I watched the exchange with Jones' attorney and was impressed with Van Langevelde's composure and his willingness to stand his ground in support of upholding state law. If he's the future of the GOP, it might have a chance at sanity someday.

Unfortunately, I had a full workload today and had to shut off the feed shortly after Laura Cox did her GOP victim routine. I'm glad I got to see the Ingham County Clerk tell Shinkle to do his job in no uncertain terms. Trump's lawyers tried to throw out her county's votes, too.

bacchi

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1908 on: November 23, 2020, 06:33:41 PM »
All of this maneuvering by the GOP does expose paths to overturning an election in the future.

Imagine the cluster if the Democrat wins the popular vote (again) but only wins the electoral vote by one state controlled by a Republican legislature.

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1909 on: November 23, 2020, 06:59:47 PM »
All of this maneuvering by the GOP does expose paths to overturning an election in the future.

Imagine the cluster if the Democrat wins the popular vote (again) but only wins the electoral vote by one state controlled by a Republican legislature.

The court cases may help establish some precedence if lawsuits ever come again (granted this is all state by state), but it still exposes vulnerabilities that the sitting President and a single person at the GSA can simply fold their arms and say they're not going to play grinding everything to a halt.  Michigan is now in the books, but it nearly came down to a single person writing their own rules on how they were going to do their job.

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1910 on: November 23, 2020, 07:06:39 PM »
All of this maneuvering by the GOP does expose paths to overturning an election in the future.

Imagine the cluster if the Democrat wins the popular vote (again) but only wins the electoral vote by one state controlled by a Republican legislature.

The court cases may help establish some precedence if lawsuits ever come again (granted this is all state by state), but it still exposes vulnerabilities that the sitting President and a single person at the GSA can simply fold their arms and say they're not going to play grinding everything to a halt.  Michigan is now in the books, but it nearly came down to a single person writing their own rules on how they were going to do their job.

Yes. We in Michigan changed our election laws and districting laws in 2018, but perhaps more changes to the post-election process are needed in 2022.

ender

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1911 on: November 24, 2020, 07:35:02 AM »
It's been hard both as a Wayne County resident and an election worker. I know how hard Detroit worked to get things right. Obviously errors happened (and in both red and blue counties), but to assume that errors = fraud is just sad.

I watched the exchange with Jones' attorney and was impressed with Van Langevelde's composure and his willingness to stand his ground in support of upholding state law. If he's the future of the GOP, it might have a chance at sanity someday.

Unfortunately, I had a full workload today and had to shut off the feed shortly after Laura Cox did her GOP victim routine. I'm glad I got to see the Ingham County Clerk tell Shinkle to do his job in no uncertain terms. Trump's lawyers tried to throw out her county's votes, too.

I think Trump's lawyers mostly know this too. If you read much of the actual court interactions and documents they are hesitant to use the word "fraud" (unlike Trump or the various press conference interpretations) and focus on the "there were possibly errors!" aspect.

Which is of course why they are mostly being laughed out of the courts, because trying to file lawsuits over what are self-admitted to be at most minor mistakes without meaningful evidence doesn't go over well. Shocking.

caracarn

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1912 on: November 25, 2020, 08:46:06 AM »
It's been hard both as a Wayne County resident and an election worker. I know how hard Detroit worked to get things right. Obviously errors happened (and in both red and blue counties), but to assume that errors = fraud is just sad.

I watched the exchange with Jones' attorney and was impressed with Van Langevelde's composure and his willingness to stand his ground in support of upholding state law. If he's the future of the GOP, it might have a chance at sanity someday.

Unfortunately, I had a full workload today and had to shut off the feed shortly after Laura Cox did her GOP victim routine. I'm glad I got to see the Ingham County Clerk tell Shinkle to do his job in no uncertain terms. Trump's lawyers tried to throw out her county's votes, too.

I think Trump's lawyers mostly know this too. If you read much of the actual court interactions and documents they are hesitant to use the word "fraud" (unlike Trump or the various press conference interpretations) and focus on the "there were possibly errors!" aspect.

Which is of course why they are mostly being laughed out of the courts, because trying to file lawsuits over what are self-admitted to be at most minor mistakes without meaningful evidence doesn't go over well. Shocking.
In a court of law fraud has a very strict level of evidence and claiming it without that as an attorney risks sanction up to and including disbarment, so yes they were not willing to lose their career for a circus act.

BicycleB

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1913 on: November 29, 2020, 04:08:41 PM »
From our predictions game

with hope rather than real belief, I offer my biggest called shot: There will be a total of zero deaths by political violence in Nov and Dec 2020 USA.

Post-Thanksgiving thought: thankful we're on track for this.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1914 on: November 29, 2020, 06:18:42 PM »
From our predictions game

with hope rather than real belief, I offer my biggest called shot: There will be a total of zero deaths by political violence in Nov and Dec 2020 USA.

Post-Thanksgiving thought: thankful we're on track for this.

Woohoo! I had actually lost track of this, but this was a great hopeful prediction that I am amazed and thankful has come through!

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1915 on: December 01, 2020, 03:23:00 AM »
From our predictions game

with hope rather than real belief, I offer my biggest called shot: There will be a total of zero deaths by political violence in Nov and Dec 2020 USA.

Post-Thanksgiving thought: thankful we're on track for this.

Woohoo! I had actually lost track of this, but this was a great hopeful prediction that I am amazed and thankful has come through!

Pennington County, South Dakota. One dead from an election argument.

https://www.newscenter1.tv/political-argument-leads-to-shooting-death-of-rapid-city-man/
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 04:03:58 AM by Travis »

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1916 on: December 01, 2020, 05:36:15 AM »
Oops. I do sometimes wonder how people like this get into law school, let alone pass the bar exam. I assume she's getting paid under the table by the Trumps?

Sidney Powell’s new lawsuit claiming election fraud cites a witness from a place that doesn’t exist (Salon)

Quote
President Donald Trump's former lawyer Sidney Powell has made another humiliating error in her legal filing. After misspelling "District Court" twice in her Georgia filing, it turns out Powell cited a source about a non-existent county in Michigan.

"For example, in PA, President Trump's lead of more than 700,000 county advantage was reduced to less than 300,000 in a few short hours, which does not occur in the real world without an external influence," the legal filing said. "I conclude that manually feeding more than 400,000 mostly absentee ballots cannot be accomplished in a short time frame (i.e., 2-3 hours) without illegal vote count alteration. In another case for Edison County, MI, Vice President Biden received more than 100% of the votes at 5:59 PM EST on November 4, 2020 and again he received 99.61% of the votes at 2:23 PM EST on November 5, 2020. These distributions are cause for concern and indicate fraud."

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1917 on: December 01, 2020, 05:57:35 AM »
Oops. I do sometimes wonder how people like this get into law school, let alone pass the bar exam. I assume she's getting paid under the table by the Trumps?

Sidney Powell’s new lawsuit claiming election fraud cites a witness from a place that doesn’t exist (Salon)

Quote
President Donald Trump's former lawyer Sidney Powell has made another humiliating error in her legal filing. After misspelling "District Court" twice in her Georgia filing, it turns out Powell cited a source about a non-existent county in Michigan.

"For example, in PA, President Trump's lead of more than 700,000 county advantage was reduced to less than 300,000 in a few short hours, which does not occur in the real world without an external influence," the legal filing said. "I conclude that manually feeding more than 400,000 mostly absentee ballots cannot be accomplished in a short time frame (i.e., 2-3 hours) without illegal vote count alteration. In another case for Edison County, MI, Vice President Biden received more than 100% of the votes at 5:59 PM EST on November 4, 2020 and again he received 99.61% of the votes at 2:23 PM EST on November 5, 2020. These distributions are cause for concern and indicate fraud."

And who is continuing to let her practice law?

Her website calls for millions in donations. In other news, Trump's various fundraising sources reportedly have netted $150 million, largely from small donations. This is the same pot of money it was disclosed won't actually go to his legal fund, but to his slush fund.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 06:00:01 AM by Travis »

frugalnacho

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1918 on: December 01, 2020, 07:29:47 AM »
Oops. I do sometimes wonder how people like this get into law school, let alone pass the bar exam. I assume she's getting paid under the table by the Trumps?

Sidney Powell’s new lawsuit claiming election fraud cites a witness from a place that doesn’t exist (Salon)

Quote
President Donald Trump's former lawyer Sidney Powell has made another humiliating error in her legal filing. After misspelling "District Court" twice in her Georgia filing, it turns out Powell cited a source about a non-existent county in Michigan.

"For example, in PA, President Trump's lead of more than 700,000 county advantage was reduced to less than 300,000 in a few short hours, which does not occur in the real world without an external influence," the legal filing said. "I conclude that manually feeding more than 400,000 mostly absentee ballots cannot be accomplished in a short time frame (i.e., 2-3 hours) without illegal vote count alteration. In another case for Edison County, MI, Vice President Biden received more than 100% of the votes at 5:59 PM EST on November 4, 2020 and again he received 99.61% of the votes at 2:23 PM EST on November 5, 2020. These distributions are cause for concern and indicate fraud."

Yes, the former lawyer.  Former because she was so batshit crazy that even Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump said "whoa man, she's not with us".   How crazy do you gotta be to get disowned by Rudy and Trump? I'm honestly amazed she's not disbarred yet.

Just Joe

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1919 on: December 01, 2020, 07:33:14 AM »
Well Trump has a $500M debt problem. That could certainly help him get back in the black... I wonder how long he and his team can keep shaking things up so the believers continue to send money?

geekette

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1920 on: December 01, 2020, 08:57:16 AM »
Well Trump has a $500M debt problem. That could certainly help him get back in the black... I wonder how long he and his team can keep shaking things up so the believers continue to send money?
No clue why people are still donating, but I'm still getting 5-6 spams from them per day.

nereo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1921 on: December 01, 2020, 11:25:49 AM »
Well Trump has a $500M debt problem. That could certainly help him get back in the black... I wonder how long he and his team can keep shaking things up so the believers continue to send money?
No clue why people are still donating, but I'm still getting 5-6 spams from them per day.
Sunk cost fallacy at work?

Confuses the help out of me too. I’ve got an aunt who really can’t afford to who is donating to his super PAC.

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1922 on: December 01, 2020, 01:30:15 PM »
Barr: No evidence of fraud that’d change election outcome (AP News)

So what's the over/under on when Barr will be fired-by-Twitter?

jim555

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1923 on: December 01, 2020, 01:40:11 PM »
Barr: No evidence of fraud that’d change election outcome (AP News)

So what's the over/under on when Barr will be fired-by-Twitter?
Who knew Barr was Deep State all this time?  Drain the swamp.

wenchsenior

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1924 on: December 01, 2020, 03:38:12 PM »
Barr: No evidence of fraud that’d change election outcome (AP News)

So what's the over/under on when Barr will be fired-by-Twitter?
Who knew Barr was Deep State all this time?  Drain the swamp.

Actually, the true believers over at e.g., Red State.com already believed Barr was a Deep State Traitor, b/c he refused to investigate the Hunter Biden laptop thing.  This will will just convince them they were correct.

ixtap

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1925 on: December 01, 2020, 03:39:40 PM »
Barr: No evidence of fraud that’d change election outcome (AP News)

So what's the over/under on when Barr will be fired-by-Twitter?
Who knew Barr was Deep State all this time?  Drain the swamp.

Actually, the true believers over at e.g., Red State.com already believed Barr was a Deep State Traitor, b/c he refused to investigate the Hunter Biden laptop thing.  This will will just convince them they were correct.
[/quote

Cults, conspiracy theories and Freud. Any attempt to argue is just further proof that I AM RIGHT.

sui generis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1926 on: December 01, 2020, 06:58:31 PM »
Man this just doesn't end with these crazy people...the DOJ is investigating a pay-for-pardon scheme at the white house. And also GOP appealed the PA suit to SCOTUS. The fact that my lawyer's group is waiting with baited breath to see if they take the case goes to show how scary things have gotten.

Also, I heard a clip of Trump on some show railing about one of his nearly 4 dozen lawsuits he's lost so far, this one for lack of standing, and demanding, "I'm the president of the United States, how can I not have standing?". It's just sooo embarrassing and totally horrifying.

BicycleB

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1927 on: December 02, 2020, 12:46:55 PM »
From our predictions game

with hope rather than real belief, I offer my biggest called shot: There will be a total of zero deaths by political violence in Nov and Dec 2020 USA.

Post-Thanksgiving thought: thankful we're on track for this.

Woohoo! I had actually lost track of this, but this was a great hopeful prediction that I am amazed and thankful has come through!

Pennington County, South Dakota. One dead from an election argument.

https://www.newscenter1.tv/political-argument-leads-to-shooting-death-of-rapid-city-man/

Saddening. Thanks for posting, though, @Travis - I'd rather know than be unaware.

bacchi

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1928 on: December 02, 2020, 02:34:18 PM »
The latest WI court case from Powell and Wood:

Quote from: https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/wisconsin-federal-judge-picks-apart-sidney-powell-and-lin-woods-lawsuit-in-brutal-order/
Things only got worse from there, with Powell and Wood demanding the immediate production of 48 hours of security camera footage from the TCF Center, which is a convention center used as a voting station on Election Day.
(bolded)

You're not forgetting -- the TCF center is not in Wisconsin. It's in Michigan.

There's a litany of other errors and omissions from the court filing leading to the question: WTF is wrong with these people?

I'm not even sure what I'd consider the Occam's Razor explanation. A con for dollars? Completely and utterly deluded? Drunk?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 02:38:25 PM by bacchi »

RetiredAt63

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1929 on: December 02, 2020, 03:13:41 PM »
The latest WI court case from Powell and Wood:

Quote from: https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/wisconsin-federal-judge-picks-apart-sidney-powell-and-lin-woods-lawsuit-in-brutal-order/
Things only got worse from there, with Powell and Wood demanding the immediate production of 48 hours of security camera footage from the TCF Center, which is a convention center used as a voting station on Election Day.
(bolded)

You're not forgetting -- the TCF center is not in Wisconsin. It's in Michigan.

There's a litany of other errors and omissions from the court filing leading to the question: WTF is wrong with these people?

I'm not even sure what I'd consider the Occam's Razor explanation. A con for dollars? Completely and utterly deluded? Drunk?

Just going through the motions with minimal effort expended?  Taking direct instruction from outgoing President Trump (who is not known for attention to detail)?

ender

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1930 on: December 02, 2020, 06:25:36 PM »
Well, Trumps speech today didn't exactly convince me he's going to do anything other than hope the Supreme Court rules on the overall election and gives it to him.

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1931 on: December 03, 2020, 10:12:02 AM »
Round #384 in the Shittiest Whack-a-Mole Game Ever:

Roger Stone Says North Korean Boats Delivered Ballots Through Maine Harbor As Trump Boosts Fraud Claims (Newsweek)

Quote
With the Electoral College expected to meet on December 14, Trump has intensified his claims of widespread election fraud. Democrat President-elect Joe Biden was widely projected to be the winner of the election despite Trump's protestations. During an interview on The Alex Jones Show, Stone said he had received further proof of election fraud.

"I just learned of absolute incontrovertible evidence of North Korean boats delivering ballots through a harbor in Maine, the state of Maine," Stone said. "If this checks out, if law enforcement looked into that and it turned out to be true, it would be proof of foreign involvement in the election."

...I don't even know where to start. That passage is a goldmine of insanity. Maybe this is an example of the pay-for-pardon scheme in action?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 10:15:34 AM by OtherJen »

ixtap

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1932 on: December 03, 2020, 11:13:48 AM »
Round #384 in the Shittiest Whack-a-Mole Game Ever:

Roger Stone Says North Korean Boats Delivered Ballots Through Maine Harbor As Trump Boosts Fraud Claims (Newsweek)

Quote
With the Electoral College expected to meet on December 14, Trump has intensified his claims of widespread election fraud. Democrat President-elect Joe Biden was widely projected to be the winner of the election despite Trump's protestations. During an interview on The Alex Jones Show, Stone said he had received further proof of election fraud.

"I just learned of absolute incontrovertible evidence of North Korean boats delivering ballots through a harbor in Maine, the state of Maine," Stone said. "If this checks out, if law enforcement looked into that and it turned out to be true, it would be proof of foreign involvement in the election."

...I don't even know where to start. That passage is a goldmine of insanity. Maybe this is an example of the pay-for-pardon scheme in action?

I like how he qualifies it with "learned of" rather than having seen such clear evidence. I do admire the creativity that these lunatics are capable of, perhaps we can lock them all up and let them write novels!

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1933 on: December 03, 2020, 12:03:20 PM »
Round #384 in the Shittiest Whack-a-Mole Game Ever:

Roger Stone Says North Korean Boats Delivered Ballots Through Maine Harbor As Trump Boosts Fraud Claims (Newsweek)

Quote
With the Electoral College expected to meet on December 14, Trump has intensified his claims of widespread election fraud. Democrat President-elect Joe Biden was widely projected to be the winner of the election despite Trump's protestations. During an interview on The Alex Jones Show, Stone said he had received further proof of election fraud.

"I just learned of absolute incontrovertible evidence of North Korean boats delivering ballots through a harbor in Maine, the state of Maine," Stone said. "If this checks out, if law enforcement looked into that and it turned out to be true, it would be proof of foreign involvement in the election."

...I don't even know where to start. That passage is a goldmine of insanity. Maybe this is an example of the pay-for-pardon scheme in action?

I like how he qualifies it with "learned of" rather than having seen such clear evidence. I do admire the creativity that these lunatics are capable of, perhaps we can lock them all up and let them write novels!

That statement is a master class in how to manipulate low information voters.  "It's incontrovertible!!"  "If it turned out to be true..." Ummm, those two phrases are mutually exclusive.

Many GOP pundits are masters at this "What if?" game that plants the seed their supporters then run with. 

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1934 on: December 03, 2020, 12:21:09 PM »
Man this just doesn't end with these crazy people...the DOJ is investigating a pay-for-pardon scheme at the white house. And also GOP appealed the PA suit to SCOTUS. The fact that my lawyer's group is waiting with baited breath to see if they take the case goes to show how scary things have gotten.

Also, I heard a clip of Trump on some show railing about one of his nearly 4 dozen lawsuits he's lost so far, this one for lack of standing, and demanding, "I'm the president of the United States, how can I not have standing?". It's just sooo embarrassing and totally horrifying.

Are pardons revokable?  If it was discovered that someone paid for a pardon, could that pardon be revoked/overturned/whatever one calls an Unpardon? 

Or would the crimes associated with the pardon simply be prosecuted (if prosecutors decided to move forward with that), but the pardon itself would stand due to... something?  Double jeopardy? 

sui generis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1935 on: December 03, 2020, 12:56:39 PM »
Man this just doesn't end with these crazy people...the DOJ is investigating a pay-for-pardon scheme at the white house. And also GOP appealed the PA suit to SCOTUS. The fact that my lawyer's group is waiting with baited breath to see if they take the case goes to show how scary things have gotten.

Also, I heard a clip of Trump on some show railing about one of his nearly 4 dozen lawsuits he's lost so far, this one for lack of standing, and demanding, "I'm the president of the United States, how can I not have standing?". It's just sooo embarrassing and totally horrifying.

Are pardons revokable?  If it was discovered that someone paid for a pardon, could that pardon be revoked/overturned/whatever one calls an Unpardon? 

Or would the crimes associated with the pardon simply be prosecuted (if prosecutors decided to move forward with that), but the pardon itself would stand due to... something?  Double jeopardy?

Pardons are probably not truly revocable.  There might be a window of time in which a pardon can be reversed (George W. Bush did so for one he granted, I believe, the day before), but it seems unlikely it can be reversed after the formalities (including delivery of the order) have been completed.  However, I also think there hasn't been much litigation around this, so you never know what a court would say!

If a prosecutor attempted to prosecute someone for a crime for which that person had been pardoned, I'm pretty sure there would be a pretty quick Motion to Dismiss which would be granted promptly.  Most prosecutors wouldn't waste their time with it unless there is some question around the specificity/applicability of the pardon, maybe?

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1936 on: December 03, 2020, 01:14:33 PM »
I think you would have to argue that there was no power to grant the pardon in the first place, so a court would then be deciding that the pardon never existed in the first place, rather than that it existed and then was voided by the court order.

One line I haven't seen argued yet is that the President can only exercise his powers after taking the oath of office (see for instance Obama retaking the oath, just to be sure, after Roberts effed it up at the inauguration), and therefore that the President's exercise of his power is subject to his complying with that oath as he exercises it.  Any crimes committed by the President during his Presidency, or by any member of his administration while working for the administration, would contravene the Constitution, and so any pardon for those crimes would also contravene the Constitution.  Because the President's powers are to be exercised for the purpose of upholding the Constitution, as set out in the oath of office, any such pardon would be outside those powers and invalid from the start.

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1937 on: December 03, 2020, 01:35:11 PM »
I think you would have to argue that there was no power to grant the pardon in the first place, so a court would then be deciding that the pardon never existed in the first place, rather than that it existed and then was voided by the court order.

One line I haven't seen argued yet is that the President can only exercise his powers after taking the oath of office (see for instance Obama retaking the oath, just to be sure, after Roberts effed it up at the inauguration), and therefore that the President's exercise of his power is subject to his complying with that oath as he exercises it.  Any crimes committed by the President during his Presidency, or by any member of his administration while working for the administration, would contravene the Constitution, and so any pardon for those crimes would also contravene the Constitution.  Because the President's powers are to be exercised for the purpose of upholding the Constitution, as set out in the oath of office, any such pardon would be outside those powers and invalid from the start.

An interesting thought exercise and would be great to see litigation attempt to resolve it if anyone had a few million sitting around and a lot of time to spend on it (plus could rope in someone with standing).  But, I don't think that is consistent with current understanding.  For instance, Ford's pardon of Nixon was quite broad, for all offesnes committed against the US.  Of course, that would include anything he might have done that was unconstitutional.  I wasn't alive at the time, much less had any legal training to hear how it was discussed, but I don't think people nowadays question that Ford's order was actually just limited to "statutory" offenses against the US or something like that.

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1938 on: December 03, 2020, 02:56:48 PM »
I think you would have to argue that there was no power to grant the pardon in the first place, so a court would then be deciding that the pardon never existed in the first place, rather than that it existed and then was voided by the court order.

One line I haven't seen argued yet is that the President can only exercise his powers after taking the oath of office (see for instance Obama retaking the oath, just to be sure, after Roberts effed it up at the inauguration), and therefore that the President's exercise of his power is subject to his complying with that oath as he exercises it.  Any crimes committed by the President during his Presidency, or by any member of his administration while working for the administration, would contravene the Constitution, and so any pardon for those crimes would also contravene the Constitution.  Because the President's powers are to be exercised for the purpose of upholding the Constitution, as set out in the oath of office, any such pardon would be outside those powers and invalid from the start.

An interesting thought exercise and would be great to see litigation attempt to resolve it if anyone had a few million sitting around and a lot of time to spend on it (plus could rope in someone with standing).  But, I don't think that is consistent with current understanding.  For instance, Ford's pardon of Nixon was quite broad, for all offesnes committed against the US.  Of course, that would include anything he might have done that was unconstitutional.  I wasn't alive at the time, much less had any legal training to hear how it was discussed, but I don't think people nowadays question that Ford's order was actually just limited to "statutory" offenses against the US or something like that.

So let's say that a sitting President, in his arrogance, accepted a direct bribe for a pardon. There's a wire to a personal offshore account, there are emails, and there are multiple witnesses, some of whom turned state's evidence.

Could the President pardon the briber and anyone else implicated in the crime? Is there any federal court that is able to charge the President? Or is he effectively immune due to a beguiled and beholden Senate?

He'd have to flee state charges, obviously, but Alabama or South Dakota might not extradite.

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1939 on: December 03, 2020, 03:07:56 PM »
I think you would have to argue that there was no power to grant the pardon in the first place, so a court would then be deciding that the pardon never existed in the first place, rather than that it existed and then was voided by the court order.

One line I haven't seen argued yet is that the President can only exercise his powers after taking the oath of office (see for instance Obama retaking the oath, just to be sure, after Roberts effed it up at the inauguration), and therefore that the President's exercise of his power is subject to his complying with that oath as he exercises it.  Any crimes committed by the President during his Presidency, or by any member of his administration while working for the administration, would contravene the Constitution, and so any pardon for those crimes would also contravene the Constitution.  Because the President's powers are to be exercised for the purpose of upholding the Constitution, as set out in the oath of office, any such pardon would be outside those powers and invalid from the start.

An interesting thought exercise and would be great to see litigation attempt to resolve it if anyone had a few million sitting around and a lot of time to spend on it (plus could rope in someone with standing).  But, I don't think that is consistent with current understanding.  For instance, Ford's pardon of Nixon was quite broad, for all offesnes committed against the US.  Of course, that would include anything he might have done that was unconstitutional.  I wasn't alive at the time, much less had any legal training to hear how it was discussed, but I don't think people nowadays question that Ford's order was actually just limited to "statutory" offenses against the US or something like that.

Does the fact that something hasn't been argued before rule it out of being argued now?  I don't think there was any litigation over the Nixon pardon so it doesn't form a legal precedent.

Would an argument based on the power of pardon being limited by the oath of office also apply to the Vice-President in that administration?  So Pence couldn't become President and pardon Trump?  That might become important.

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1940 on: December 03, 2020, 03:25:25 PM »
Round #384 in the Shittiest Whack-a-Mole Game Ever:

Roger Stone Says North Korean Boats Delivered Ballots Through Maine Harbor As Trump Boosts Fraud Claims (Newsweek)

Quote
With the Electoral College expected to meet on December 14, Trump has intensified his claims of widespread election fraud. Democrat President-elect Joe Biden was widely projected to be the winner of the election despite Trump's protestations. During an interview on The Alex Jones Show, Stone said he had received further proof of election fraud.

"I just learned of absolute incontrovertible evidence of North Korean boats delivering ballots through a harbor in Maine, the state of Maine," Stone said. "If this checks out, if law enforcement looked into that and it turned out to be true, it would be proof of foreign involvement in the election."

...I don't even know where to start. That passage is a goldmine of insanity. Maybe this is an example of the pay-for-pardon scheme in action?

The handful of Trump believers in my Facebook have been posting these "ah ha gotcha" stories about campaign workers who saw "something." Funny how they only seem to come forward with these bombshells on social media or oddball 'news' sites, but never appear in a courtroom where 40 lawsuits have been filed in the last month.

sui generis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1941 on: December 03, 2020, 03:25:40 PM »
I think you would have to argue that there was no power to grant the pardon in the first place, so a court would then be deciding that the pardon never existed in the first place, rather than that it existed and then was voided by the court order.

One line I haven't seen argued yet is that the President can only exercise his powers after taking the oath of office (see for instance Obama retaking the oath, just to be sure, after Roberts effed it up at the inauguration), and therefore that the President's exercise of his power is subject to his complying with that oath as he exercises it.  Any crimes committed by the President during his Presidency, or by any member of his administration while working for the administration, would contravene the Constitution, and so any pardon for those crimes would also contravene the Constitution.  Because the President's powers are to be exercised for the purpose of upholding the Constitution, as set out in the oath of office, any such pardon would be outside those powers and invalid from the start.

An interesting thought exercise and would be great to see litigation attempt to resolve it if anyone had a few million sitting around and a lot of time to spend on it (plus could rope in someone with standing).  But, I don't think that is consistent with current understanding.  For instance, Ford's pardon of Nixon was quite broad, for all offesnes committed against the US.  Of course, that would include anything he might have done that was unconstitutional.  I wasn't alive at the time, much less had any legal training to hear how it was discussed, but I don't think people nowadays question that Ford's order was actually just limited to "statutory" offenses against the US or something like that.

So let's say that a sitting President, in his arrogance, accepted a direct bribe for a pardon. There's a wire to a personal offshore account, there are emails, and there are multiple witnesses, some of whom turned state's evidence.

Could the President pardon the briber and anyone else implicated in the crime? Is there any federal court that is able to charge the President? Or is he effectively immune due to a beguiled and beholden Senate?

He'd have to flee state charges, obviously, but Alabama or South Dakota might not extradite.

I honestly don't know (but assume many highly-paid lawyers are right now writing up briefs and memos on this exact subject) whether there are legal theories that would limit a president's ability to use a pardon if it was part of a larger, illegal scheme.  I'm resisting googling this, and there might be some good theories and ideas out there already.  But generally, if the president has a consitutional right to do something, a statute (i.e. making bribery illegal) cannot supersede that right, unless the constitution also grants power or leaves space (in some fashion) to explicate or limit or refine that right.  So just the mere fact that he did something illegal doesn't mean that a particularl consitutional power was exercised illegally or incorrectly.

I think you would have to argue that there was no power to grant the pardon in the first place, so a court would then be deciding that the pardon never existed in the first place, rather than that it existed and then was voided by the court order.

One line I haven't seen argued yet is that the President can only exercise his powers after taking the oath of office (see for instance Obama retaking the oath, just to be sure, after Roberts effed it up at the inauguration), and therefore that the President's exercise of his power is subject to his complying with that oath as he exercises it.  Any crimes committed by the President during his Presidency, or by any member of his administration while working for the administration, would contravene the Constitution, and so any pardon for those crimes would also contravene the Constitution.  Because the President's powers are to be exercised for the purpose of upholding the Constitution, as set out in the oath of office, any such pardon would be outside those powers and invalid from the start.

An interesting thought exercise and would be great to see litigation attempt to resolve it if anyone had a few million sitting around and a lot of time to spend on it (plus could rope in someone with standing).  But, I don't think that is consistent with current understanding.  For instance, Ford's pardon of Nixon was quite broad, for all offesnes committed against the US.  Of course, that would include anything he might have done that was unconstitutional.  I wasn't alive at the time, much less had any legal training to hear how it was discussed, but I don't think people nowadays question that Ford's order was actually just limited to "statutory" offenses against the US or something like that.

Does the fact that something hasn't been argued before rule it out of being argued now?  I don't think there was any litigation over the Nixon pardon so it doesn't form a legal precedent.
That's right.  Just because a topic hasn't been litigated doesn't mean we know the answer.  The fact that no one has litigated on something and, let's say, it's been ongoing for centuries and someone finally brings suit could be persuasive to the court (particularly in the absence of other conclusive information from the law, the legislative history, etc), but not necessarily authoritative.  The text of the law being sued on would trump whatever the practice has been, if it was an obvious conflict.

Would an argument based on the power of pardon being limited by the oath of office also apply to the Vice-President in that administration?  So Pence couldn't become President and pardon Trump?  That might become important.

I might be missing something about your hypothetical here? But if Pence became President, he would take the oath of office immediately.  (Perhaps you've seen the pics of Johnson being sworn in with Jackie Kennedy, in her bloodstained dress, standing next to him, after JFK was assassinated).  I don't think there'd be time, much less would Pence attempt, to pardon Trump before he had taken the oath.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 03:28:08 PM by sui generis »

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1942 on: December 03, 2020, 09:39:18 PM »
Round #384 in the Shittiest Whack-a-Mole Game Ever:

Roger Stone Says North Korean Boats Delivered Ballots Through Maine Harbor As Trump Boosts Fraud Claims (Newsweek)

Quote
With the Electoral College expected to meet on December 14, Trump has intensified his claims of widespread election fraud. Democrat President-elect Joe Biden was widely projected to be the winner of the election despite Trump's protestations. During an interview on The Alex Jones Show, Stone said he had received further proof of election fraud.

"I just learned of absolute incontrovertible evidence of North Korean boats delivering ballots through a harbor in Maine, the state of Maine," Stone said. "If this checks out, if law enforcement looked into that and it turned out to be true, it would be proof of foreign involvement in the election."

...I don't even know where to start. That passage is a goldmine of insanity. Maybe this is an example of the pay-for-pardon scheme in action?

The handful of Trump believers in my Facebook have been posting these "ah ha gotcha" stories about campaign workers who saw "something." Funny how they only seem to come forward with these bombshells on social media or oddball 'news' sites, but never appear in a courtroom where 40 lawsuits have been filed in the last month.

On second thought, maybe these folks should stick to Facebook and Twitter. You know you're in high society when Rudy tries to get you to calm down.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9015555/I-WASNT-drunk-Rudy-told-shush-says-star-witness-Trumps-voter-fraud-claim.html

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/528666-michigan-voter-fraud-hearing-goes-viral-for-alleged-flatulence

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1943 on: December 04, 2020, 04:23:31 AM »
Round #384 in the Shittiest Whack-a-Mole Game Ever:

Roger Stone Says North Korean Boats Delivered Ballots Through Maine Harbor As Trump Boosts Fraud Claims (Newsweek)

Quote
With the Electoral College expected to meet on December 14, Trump has intensified his claims of widespread election fraud. Democrat President-elect Joe Biden was widely projected to be the winner of the election despite Trump's protestations. During an interview on The Alex Jones Show, Stone said he had received further proof of election fraud.

"I just learned of absolute incontrovertible evidence of North Korean boats delivering ballots through a harbor in Maine, the state of Maine," Stone said. "If this checks out, if law enforcement looked into that and it turned out to be true, it would be proof of foreign involvement in the election."

...I don't even know where to start. That passage is a goldmine of insanity. Maybe this is an example of the pay-for-pardon scheme in action?

The handful of Trump believers in my Facebook have been posting these "ah ha gotcha" stories about campaign workers who saw "something." Funny how they only seem to come forward with these bombshells on social media or oddball 'news' sites, but never appear in a courtroom where 40 lawsuits have been filed in the last month.

On second thought, maybe these folks should stick to Facebook and Twitter. You know you're in high society when Rudy tries to get you to calm down.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9015555/I-WASNT-drunk-Rudy-told-shush-says-star-witness-Trumps-voter-fraud-claim.html

https://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/528666-michigan-voter-fraud-hearing-goes-viral-for-alleged-flatulence

Yep. My state's legislature held that crackpot circus rather than actually do something useful like pandemic response, given that a quarter of counties in the state are reporting maxed-out ICUs.

If I'm being charitable, maybe the politicians more grounded in reality thought that giving the tinfoil hatters a chance to vent their spleens in ersatz kangaroo court would satisfy them enough to move on. Unfortunately, a couple of generally well respected people involved in local politics are now saying that the "testimony" proves suspicious irregularities that have to be investigated. I can only imagine what the MAGA rank-and-file are saying.

Villanelle

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1944 on: December 04, 2020, 11:01:10 AM »
I think you would have to argue that there was no power to grant the pardon in the first place, so a court would then be deciding that the pardon never existed in the first place, rather than that it existed and then was voided by the court order.

One line I haven't seen argued yet is that the President can only exercise his powers after taking the oath of office (see for instance Obama retaking the oath, just to be sure, after Roberts effed it up at the inauguration), and therefore that the President's exercise of his power is subject to his complying with that oath as he exercises it.  Any crimes committed by the President during his Presidency, or by any member of his administration while working for the administration, would contravene the Constitution, and so any pardon for those crimes would also contravene the Constitution.  Because the President's powers are to be exercised for the purpose of upholding the Constitution, as set out in the oath of office, any such pardon would be outside those powers and invalid from the start.

An interesting thought exercise and would be great to see litigation attempt to resolve it if anyone had a few million sitting around and a lot of time to spend on it (plus could rope in someone with standing).  But, I don't think that is consistent with current understanding.  For instance, Ford's pardon of Nixon was quite broad, for all offesnes committed against the US.  Of course, that would include anything he might have done that was unconstitutional.  I wasn't alive at the time, much less had any legal training to hear how it was discussed, but I don't think people nowadays question that Ford's order was actually just limited to "statutory" offenses against the US or something like that.

So let's say that a sitting President, in his arrogance, accepted a direct bribe for a pardon. There's a wire to a personal offshore account, there are emails, and there are multiple witnesses, some of whom turned state's evidence.

Could the President pardon the briber and anyone else implicated in the crime? Is there any federal court that is able to charge the President? Or is he effectively immune due to a beguiled and beholden Senate?

He'd have to flee state charges, obviously, but Alabama or South Dakota might not extradite.

I honestly don't know (but assume many highly-paid lawyers are right now writing up briefs and memos on this exact subject) whether there are legal theories that would limit a president's ability to use a pardon if it was part of a larger, illegal scheme.  I'm resisting googling this, and there might be some good theories and ideas out there already.  But generally, if the president has a consitutional right to do something, a statute (i.e. making bribery illegal) cannot supersede that right, unless the constitution also grants power or leaves space (in some fashion) to explicate or limit or refine that right.  So just the mere fact that he did something illegal doesn't mean that a particularl consitutional power was exercised illegally or incorrectly.

I think you would have to argue that there was no power to grant the pardon in the first place, so a court would then be deciding that the pardon never existed in the first place, rather than that it existed and then was voided by the court order.

One line I haven't seen argued yet is that the President can only exercise his powers after taking the oath of office (see for instance Obama retaking the oath, just to be sure, after Roberts effed it up at the inauguration), and therefore that the President's exercise of his power is subject to his complying with that oath as he exercises it.  Any crimes committed by the President during his Presidency, or by any member of his administration while working for the administration, would contravene the Constitution, and so any pardon for those crimes would also contravene the Constitution.  Because the President's powers are to be exercised for the purpose of upholding the Constitution, as set out in the oath of office, any such pardon would be outside those powers and invalid from the start.

An interesting thought exercise and would be great to see litigation attempt to resolve it if anyone had a few million sitting around and a lot of time to spend on it (plus could rope in someone with standing).  But, I don't think that is consistent with current understanding.  For instance, Ford's pardon of Nixon was quite broad, for all offesnes committed against the US.  Of course, that would include anything he might have done that was unconstitutional.  I wasn't alive at the time, much less had any legal training to hear how it was discussed, but I don't think people nowadays question that Ford's order was actually just limited to "statutory" offenses against the US or something like that.

Does the fact that something hasn't been argued before rule it out of being argued now?  I don't think there was any litigation over the Nixon pardon so it doesn't form a legal precedent.
That's right.  Just because a topic hasn't been litigated doesn't mean we know the answer.  The fact that no one has litigated on something and, let's say, it's been ongoing for centuries and someone finally brings suit could be persuasive to the court (particularly in the absence of other conclusive information from the law, the legislative history, etc), but not necessarily authoritative.  The text of the law being sued on would trump whatever the practice has been, if it was an obvious conflict.

Would an argument based on the power of pardon being limited by the oath of office also apply to the Vice-President in that administration?  So Pence couldn't become President and pardon Trump?  That might become important.

I might be missing something about your hypothetical here? But if Pence became President, he would take the oath of office immediately.  (Perhaps you've seen the pics of Johnson being sworn in with Jackie Kennedy, in her bloodstained dress, standing next to him, after JFK was assassinated).  I don't think there'd be time, much less would Pence attempt, to pardon Trump before he had taken the oath.

I had to read this multiple times, because my brain read it as "Trump", the proper noun, rather than "trump", the verb. 

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1945 on: December 04, 2020, 11:35:11 AM »
I had to read this multiple times, because my brain read it as "Trump", the proper noun, rather than "trump", the verb.

I can't tell you how much it annoys me not to be able to use the word "trump" as a verb without making it political. 

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1946 on: December 04, 2020, 11:45:35 AM »
I had to read this multiple times, because my brain read it as "Trump", the proper noun, rather than "trump", the verb.

I can't tell you how much it annoys me not to be able to use the word "trump" as a verb without making it political.
Yep.  I (obviously) still have not found a good replacement for that term.  We really need one!

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1947 on: December 04, 2020, 01:29:45 PM »
I had to read this multiple times, because my brain read it as "Trump", the proper noun, rather than "trump", the verb.

I can't tell you how much it annoys me not to be able to use the word "trump" as a verb without making it political.
Yep.  I (obviously) still have not found a good replacement for that term.  We really need one!

Think of the problems bridge players have!   ;-)

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1948 on: December 04, 2020, 03:54:01 PM »
I had to read this multiple times, because my brain read it as "Trump", the proper noun, rather than "trump", the verb.

I can't tell you how much it annoys me not to be able to use the word "trump" as a verb without making it political.
Yep.  I (obviously) still have not found a good replacement for that term.  We really need one!

Think of the problems bridge players have!   ;-)

And euchre players!

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1949 on: December 04, 2020, 03:56:55 PM »
Hey, here's real news about actual attempted election fraud in Georgia by Republicans:

Florida attorney under investigation for registering to vote in Georgia, encouraging others to do the same