Poll

Who do you think will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

Donald Trump
105 (29.6%)
Joe Biden
230 (64.8%)
3rd-Party Candidate or Black Swan Event (e.g., Trump or Biden dies)
20 (5.6%)

Total Members Voted: 353

Author Topic: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?  (Read 139073 times)

bacchi

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1200 on: November 04, 2020, 04:06:39 PM »
It doesn't make sense to me, because one of the biggest things Americans complain about is stagnation and not getting things done in the legislature. Basically all that politicians do is fight and do nothing. Have a republican led senate is going to lead to yet another 4 years of nothing happening.

I’m wondering if McConnell is even going to allow Biden a cabinet.

Once again, Trump paved the path. Biden can follow his lead and appoint one acting secretary after another.

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1201 on: November 04, 2020, 04:08:24 PM »
The senate is not really democratic.  20 million more people voted for Democratic candidates in Senate elections than for Republican candidates . . . but Republicans control the senate.

I expect that after this election that number will be even higher.

God Bless me for dipping my toe into an Off Topic thread, but...

Re the Senate debate, and as a "classic" liberal myself, I am always struck by how much modern progressives loathe counter-majoritarian measures.

The entire purpose of the Bill of Rights is to be counter-majoritarian. In other words, a duly elected majority cannot invade a minority's rights. We could not ban Islam, for example, even though, after 9/11, Americans sadly might have wanted to. But that was never even on the table, because there is an extent to which pure bloodsport majority rule stops. Progressives seem to agree and acknowledge that this is a key part of a functioning Western democracy.

Yet when it comes to other counter-majoritarian measures, they are "not democratic." Really? That only applies if you have created your own definition of "democracy" as pure and absolute "rule by the majority," which is not what a democracy is. A democracy is just a system of government wherein people elect their representatives. How that is devised is then up to a million different forms.

The legislative branch was intended to be the most powerful branch of government, and thus a Senate was devised to protect smaller states from being bludgeoned by larger states. And note that the Senate is not always counter-majoritarian. I would wager that it often reflects the majority and that what we are experiencing right now is not usually what happens.

Of course, and because of these current times, the modern thought is that this is a Republican phenomenon, but Democratic Senators from small states (New England states, Montana, Oregon, West Virginia, etc.) all have Democratic representation in the Senate. The map can change! Democrats may eventually benefit.

So, you're never going to convince me on amending the Constitution regarding the Senate. Small states need a voice, and take that voice away and they would simply leave the Union. The Electoral College debate is much more intriguing and persuasive.

ctuser1

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1202 on: November 04, 2020, 04:08:33 PM »

Vote counts are not officially reported till a few days at a minimum. The "media" counts are just that - media counts. The "media" mostly does a good job, but sometimes messes up - e.g. when they project AZ was 97% counted yesterday and then corrected.

Why is this conspiracy-monger talking about what some unofficial media is reporting, again? And why are you promoting that?

There are no official counts to see yet!! Come back next week and you may have some.

So cynical!  I specifically asked for sources to help refute this conspiracy!

You did not ask in good faith.

It is pretty well known that there is one side trying to stymie and cast doubt on the democratic process. It is VERY well known that official results take days, weeks.

Why would you promote conspiracy theory about what some media outlet purportedly messed up implying that has something to do with the democratic process?

This behavior is called concern trolling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#Concern_troll

bacchi

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1203 on: November 04, 2020, 04:13:33 PM »
Why would you promote conspiracy theory about what some media outlet purportedly messed up implying that has something to do with the democratic process?

It can also be done with some html skillz.

Montecarlo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1204 on: November 04, 2020, 04:13:47 PM »

Vote counts are not officially reported till a few days at a minimum. The "media" counts are just that - media counts. The "media" mostly does a good job, but sometimes messes up - e.g. when they project AZ was 97% counted yesterday and then corrected.

Why is this conspiracy-monger talking about what some unofficial media is reporting, again? And why are you promoting that?

There are no official counts to see yet!! Come back next week and you may have some.

So cynical!  I specifically asked for sources to help refute this conspiracy!

You did not ask in good faith.

It is pretty well known that there is one side trying to stymie and cast doubt on the democratic process. It is VERY well known that official results take days, weeks.

Why would you promote conspiracy theory about what some media outlet purportedly messed up implying that has something to do with the democratic process?

This behavior is called concern trolling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll#Concern_troll

You really think you know what’s in my heart and mind?  Bless you, what arrogance!

Montecarlo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1205 on: November 04, 2020, 04:17:01 PM »
Anyone tracking this?  Supposedly the screenshots are in reverse order - 140k votes were removed from Biden after a fat finger, but if anyone has something more official I would like to share with my Trump friends to get their hackles down

Who says supposedly? That can't be correct, the "percent counted" goes up in the right-hand picture.


Makes perfect sense if they removed votes from a fat finger.  Perfectly consistent

Montecarlo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1206 on: November 04, 2020, 04:17:50 PM »
Anyone tracking this?  Supposedly the screenshots are in reverse order - 140k votes were removed from Biden after a fat finger, but if anyone has something more official I would like to share with my Trump friends to get their hackles down

Who says supposedly? That can't be correct, the "percent counted" goes up in the right-hand picture.

Regardless of what happened you're not going to be able to convince a conspiracy-theorist by using something "more official". They're gonna believe what they're gonna believe. It was a foregone conclusion that they would decide that the election was stolen because of "voter fraud" or something long before the election actually happened. Hell, they said that about 2016 and they won that one.

Also yes, I second ctuser's excellent explanation. These are just preliminary counts, not officially certified. They get revised up or down as counting proceeds and things are corrected.

It's both a mistake and fake news.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1324020322622971913

DecisionDeskHQ explained what happened. Biden's total actually dropped due to a county error and then someone reversed the images to make it appear as if Trump lost votes.

Thanks.  I saw that earlier.  Was hoping for an explanation from the DecisionDeskHQ themselves

ctuser1

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1207 on: November 04, 2020, 04:18:42 PM »
You really think you know what’s in my heart and mind?  Bless you, what arrogance!

You really think you can use what a media outlet does is appropriate to use to cast partisan doubt on a democratic process and that nobody will call you out on it?

What arrogance!!

Is it arrogance? Maybe something else. Who cares??

bacchi

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1208 on: November 04, 2020, 04:19:58 PM »
Anyone tracking this?  Supposedly the screenshots are in reverse order - 140k votes were removed from Biden after a fat finger, but if anyone has something more official I would like to share with my Trump friends to get their hackles down

Who says supposedly? That can't be correct, the "percent counted" goes up in the right-hand picture.

Regardless of what happened you're not going to be able to convince a conspiracy-theorist by using something "more official". They're gonna believe what they're gonna believe. It was a foregone conclusion that they would decide that the election was stolen because of "voter fraud" or something long before the election actually happened. Hell, they said that about 2016 and they won that one.

Also yes, I second ctuser's excellent explanation. These are just preliminary counts, not officially certified. They get revised up or down as counting proceeds and things are corrected.

It's both a mistake and fake news.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1324020322622971913

DecisionDeskHQ explained what happened. Biden's total actually dropped due to a county error and then someone reversed the images to make it appear as if Trump lost votes.

Thanks.  I saw that earlier.  Was hoping for an explanation from the DecisionDeskHQ themselves

https://mobile.twitter.com/DecisionDeskHQ/status/1324059542343294976

Quote from: decisiondeskhq
This morning there was a clerical error in the Shiawassee, MI county presidential data,. Once we identified the error, we cleared the erroneous data and updated it with the correct data as provided by officials. We stand by our data as reflected on

ctuser1

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1209 on: November 04, 2020, 04:20:48 PM »
I am a little heartened to see some republicans (e.g. Georgia guy in charge of the elections) coming out and making appropriate noises about every vote counting..

EVEN McTurtle made such comments!!

I do need to fix the amount of cynicism I have about the right!!

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1210 on: November 04, 2020, 04:24:22 PM »
I think the hardest thing about voters deciding it's best to get Trump out, but leave Biden with a Republican Senate is that the Rs will make everything horrible for Americans for the next 4 years in order to (with McConnell reprising his words of over a decade ago) make Joe Biden a one-term president.  So, regardless of whether all of us here agree or not on judges or the Green New Deal or the filibuster...we also are not going to get any sort of economic relief and our economy will continue to suffer, because that is in the Rs best interest. 

It would have been nice to have had a Dem Senate so that Biden could at least show the people what his plans were, how they worked (or not) and let them make an honest assessment of his performance.  Now there will be nearly no performance to assess of his, but Rs will pin all the lackluster results of the government as a whole on him.

It makes sense if you don't want Biden to get the things passed that you think he would get passed because the Democrats finally controlled everything and Republicans have done a lot of nutty things so the Democrats will try to take this opportunity to do literally everything they can and you don't like the Democratic platform......but you felt compelled to vote against Trump because he's just that awful.

I really don't see how it's difficult to understand.

I didn't say I didn't understand it.  Read again.

And I didn't say that you said that you didn't understand it, lol. I was kind of implying you didn't, just like you were seemed to be implying that people should appreciate Biden with a Democratic Senate to see what would have happened. Sure, it would have been nice to see if it's a thought experiment with no actual real impacts or if you support what Biden's doing and want him to get it accomplished. Otherwise, it's a bad thing, so keeping him stymied is a net positive.

Montecarlo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1211 on: November 04, 2020, 04:24:48 PM »
You really think you know what’s in my heart and mind?  Bless you, what arrogance!

You really think you can use what a media outlet does is appropriate to use to cast partisan doubt on a democratic process and that nobody will call you out on it?

What arrogance!!

Is it arrogance? Maybe something else. Who cares??

Are you serious?  I literally said I was looking for help refuting it.  Here is the conversation with my friend.  You really have no right to tel me what my thoughts and intentions are


Montecarlo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1212 on: November 04, 2020, 04:31:56 PM »

Regardless of what happened you're not going to be able to convince a conspiracy-theorist by using something "more official". They're gonna believe what they're gonna believe. It was a foregone conclusion that they would decide that the election was stolen because of "voter fraud" or something long before the election actually happened. Hell, they said that about 2016 and they won that one.

I’m a firm believer in confronting misinformation with facts, not just standing by as someone I care about gets worked up over nothing

ctuser1

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1213 on: November 04, 2020, 04:36:59 PM »
You really think you know what’s in my heart and mind?  Bless you, what arrogance!

You really think you can use what a media outlet does is appropriate to use to cast partisan doubt on a democratic process and that nobody will call you out on it?

What arrogance!!

Is it arrogance? Maybe something else. Who cares??

Are you serious?  I literally said I was looking for help refuting it.  Here is the conversation with my friend.  You really have no right to tel me what my thoughts and intentions are

If I told you "don't think of an elephant" - the first thing you will think of is an elephant! There is a fantastic book with this exact name - I loved it. It explains in detail how "framing" works.

Attempting to engage in conspiracy theories, especially to refute it, is the most surefire way to strengthen and propagate it!! So you are either badly miscalculating what you are trying to do, or actually actively propagating the conspiracy theory.

If it is the first, please stop!! If it's the later - then it would count as concern trolling.

Also, if it is the first, then my diagnosis of concern trolling was inaccurate!!

The best way to tackle conspiracy theories is to change the topic and carry on the discussion as if the opposite is true without explicitly stating it. Or if you are somewhat pugilistic (like yours truly) to ridicule so that the subject becomes your behavior rather than the conspiracy theory..

Trump is very good at it. There is a lot to learn from him on this.


OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1214 on: November 04, 2020, 04:42:39 PM »
It doesn't make sense to me, because one of the biggest things Americans complain about is stagnation and not getting things done in the legislature. Basically all that politicians do is fight and do nothing. Have a republican led senate is going to lead to yet another 4 years of nothing happening.

I worked a precinct in my city yesterday. At the end of the night, Trump had a roughly 50-vote lead over Biden among the 490 in-person voters at that precinct. Strangely, Rashida Tlaib, our US district rep., won by a much larger margin in the same precinct, suggesting that people were voting for both her and Trump.

If anyone can figure that one out, more power to you. I can only assume it's the incumbent effect.

What precinct are you talking about? Biden has crushed it in Tlaib's district.

Spoiler: show
Dearborn Heights, precinct 6. I was precinct co-chair. I was there from 6 am until we left for city hall at 9:30 PM. I started the tabulator, posted the end results, and ran/closed out the e-pollbook.
I know the in-person vote tally at my precinct. I don't yet have the absentee tally in the same precinct. It may very well have gone to Biden. My comment was to present the oddity that at least some people who voted in person for Trump also voted for one of his sworn enemies.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 08:12:44 PM by OtherJen »

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1215 on: November 04, 2020, 04:45:11 PM »
Anyone tracking this?  Supposedly the screenshots are in reverse order - 140k votes were removed from Biden after a fat finger, but if anyone has something more official I would like to share with my Trump friends to get their hackles down

Who says supposedly? That can't be correct, the "percent counted" goes up in the right-hand picture.

Regardless of what happened you're not going to be able to convince a conspiracy-theorist by using something "more official". They're gonna believe what they're gonna believe. It was a foregone conclusion that they would decide that the election was stolen because of "voter fraud" or something long before the election actually happened. Hell, they said that about 2016 and they won that one.

Also yes, I second ctuser's excellent explanation. These are just preliminary counts, not officially certified. They get revised up or down as counting proceeds and things are corrected.

It's both a mistake and fake news.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1324020322622971913

DecisionDeskHQ explained what happened. Biden's total actually dropped due to a county error and then someone reversed the images to make it appear as if Trump lost votes.

Thanks.  I saw that earlier.  Was hoping for an explanation from the DecisionDeskHQ themselves

https://mobile.twitter.com/DecisionDeskHQ/status/1324059542343294976

Quote from: decisiondeskhq
This morning there was a clerical error in the Shiawassee, MI county presidential data,. Once we identified the error, we cleared the erroneous data and updated it with the correct data as provided by officials. We stand by our data as reflected on

Oof, yeah, Shiawassee County is definitely Trump country. Even with that kind of error in the posted county results, it would be easy to pull the hard data from the precincts. It's not a very populous county.

Montecarlo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1216 on: November 04, 2020, 04:50:01 PM »
Anyone tracking this?  Supposedly the screenshots are in reverse order - 140k votes were removed from Biden after a fat finger, but if anyone has something more official I would like to share with my Trump friends to get their hackles down

Who says supposedly? That can't be correct, the "percent counted" goes up in the right-hand picture.

Regardless of what happened you're not going to be able to convince a conspiracy-theorist by using something "more official". They're gonna believe what they're gonna believe. It was a foregone conclusion that they would decide that the election was stolen because of "voter fraud" or something long before the election actually happened. Hell, they said that about 2016 and they won that one.

Also yes, I second ctuser's excellent explanation. These are just preliminary counts, not officially certified. They get revised up or down as counting proceeds and things are corrected.

It's both a mistake and fake news.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1324020322622971913

DecisionDeskHQ explained what happened. Biden's total actually dropped due to a county error and then someone reversed the images to make it appear as if Trump lost votes.

Thanks.  I saw that earlier.  Was hoping for an explanation from the DecisionDeskHQ themselves

https://mobile.twitter.com/DecisionDeskHQ/status/1324059542343294976

Quote from: decisiondeskhq
This morning there was a clerical error in the Shiawassee, MI county presidential data,. Once we identified the error, we cleared the erroneous data and updated it with the correct data as provided by officials. We stand by our data as reflected on

Perfect, thank you!

sui generis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1217 on: November 04, 2020, 04:57:16 PM »
I think the hardest thing about voters deciding it's best to get Trump out, but leave Biden with a Republican Senate is that the Rs will make everything horrible for Americans for the next 4 years in order to (with McConnell reprising his words of over a decade ago) make Joe Biden a one-term president.  So, regardless of whether all of us here agree or not on judges or the Green New Deal or the filibuster...we also are not going to get any sort of economic relief and our economy will continue to suffer, because that is in the Rs best interest. 

It would have been nice to have had a Dem Senate so that Biden could at least show the people what his plans were, how they worked (or not) and let them make an honest assessment of his performance.  Now there will be nearly no performance to assess of his, but Rs will pin all the lackluster results of the government as a whole on him.

It makes sense if you don't want Biden to get the things passed that you think he would get passed because the Democrats finally controlled everything and Republicans have done a lot of nutty things so the Democrats will try to take this opportunity to do literally everything they can and you don't like the Democratic platform......but you felt compelled to vote against Trump because he's just that awful.

I really don't see how it's difficult to understand.

I didn't say I didn't understand it.  Read again.

And I didn't say that you said that you didn't understand it, lol. I was kind of implying you didn't, just like you were seemed to be implying that people should appreciate Biden with a Democratic Senate to see what would have happened. Sure, it would have been nice to see if it's a thought experiment with no actual real impacts or if you support what Biden's doing and want him to get it accomplished. Otherwise, it's a bad thing, so keeping him stymied is a net positive.

It's a damn shame that (it appears) your highest goal for government is for it to do nothing at all.  Unfortunately, this decreases confidence in government, makes people think civic engagement really doesn't matter and creates deep dissatisfaction in the electorate (when their elected officials don't get anything done that they ran on).  Doing something, and then being held accountable for it's success or failure, is what having a society and a government that administers the logistics of that society, is all about.  It sometimes takes a while, but people are most satisfied with government when it accomplishes things, even things that are controversial and disliked at the time.  Witness: Obamacare.  Many other examples over the decades could be cited. 

It seems to me it would be better aligned with your goals to have no government at all.  Then nothing would get done and we also wouldn't have to pay a bunch of people, who are mostly already millionaires, a lot of money to continue doing nothing.  Which is super inefficient.  Talk about pointless jobs.

But it is quite obvious to me that you disagree.  And this is something I'm more than happy to agree to disagree on.  I fully understand your view even while I find it fairly tragic.  And so this policy perspective is, in my opinion, the exact circumstance when it's totally fair for people to "agree to disagree".

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1218 on: November 04, 2020, 05:23:42 PM »
I think the hardest thing about voters deciding it's best to get Trump out, but leave Biden with a Republican Senate is that the Rs will make everything horrible for Americans for the next 4 years in order to (with McConnell reprising his words of over a decade ago) make Joe Biden a one-term president.  So, regardless of whether all of us here agree or not on judges or the Green New Deal or the filibuster...we also are not going to get any sort of economic relief and our economy will continue to suffer, because that is in the Rs best interest. 

It would have been nice to have had a Dem Senate so that Biden could at least show the people what his plans were, how they worked (or not) and let them make an honest assessment of his performance.  Now there will be nearly no performance to assess of his, but Rs will pin all the lackluster results of the government as a whole on him.

It makes sense if you don't want Biden to get the things passed that you think he would get passed because the Democrats finally controlled everything and Republicans have done a lot of nutty things so the Democrats will try to take this opportunity to do literally everything they can and you don't like the Democratic platform......but you felt compelled to vote against Trump because he's just that awful.

I really don't see how it's difficult to understand.

I didn't say I didn't understand it.  Read again.

And I didn't say that you said that you didn't understand it, lol. I was kind of implying you didn't, just like you were seemed to be implying that people should appreciate Biden with a Democratic Senate to see what would have happened. Sure, it would have been nice to see if it's a thought experiment with no actual real impacts or if you support what Biden's doing and want him to get it accomplished. Otherwise, it's a bad thing, so keeping him stymied is a net positive.

It's a damn shame that (it appears) your highest goal for government is for it to do nothing at all.  Unfortunately, this decreases confidence in government, makes people think civic engagement really doesn't matter and creates deep dissatisfaction in the electorate (when their elected officials don't get anything done that they ran on).  Doing something, and then being held accountable for it's success or failure, is what having a society and a government that administers the logistics of that society, is all about.  It sometimes takes a while, but people are most satisfied with government when it accomplishes things, even things that are controversial and disliked at the time.  Witness: Obamacare.  Many other examples over the decades could be cited. 

It seems to me it would be better aligned with your goals to have no government at all.  Then nothing would get done and we also wouldn't have to pay a bunch of people, who are mostly already millionaires, a lot of money to continue doing nothing.  Which is super inefficient.  Talk about pointless jobs.

But it is quite obvious to me that you disagree.  And this is something I'm more than happy to agree to disagree on.  I fully understand your view even while I find it fairly tragic.  And so this policy perspective is, in my opinion, the exact circumstance when it's totally fair for people to "agree to disagree".

If something I said indicated this, it was not my intention. I would like for a government full of reasonable conservative viewpoints to be the case. We've had reasonable conservative governments before Trump, and I hope to have them again. I don't want things to stagnate or for nothing to change. It's just that I prefer nothing over extremely progressive Democratic policies. Now I could be wrong, and maybe with a complete majority in the House, Senate, and a Democratic president, they wouldn't have pushed for very progressive policies. Who knows? I just see a pendulum swinging back and forth further and further, and I don't see it settling down anytime soon. Shoot, I might even have been ok with the Democrats controlling all of it if I knew they would have self-moderated to Obama levels, but I really doubt it would have resembled the Obama years. Do you really feel that the views I just stated mean that my highest goal for government is to do nothing at all?

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1219 on: November 04, 2020, 05:46:23 PM »
rofl at least sherr comes up with a reasoned response as to why they think the system has strayed from it's original intent.

"Original Intent" is not a good metric. The original intent of the Electoral College was explicitly to keep the weighty responsibility of choosing the President out of the hands of the low-brow commoner and firmly in the purview of the Elite (Federalist 68). And to convince the slave-states to join by giving them disproportionate power, so that they can be assured of upholding their system of slavery. (And, I would add, to come up with some system what was possible given the complete impracticality of waging a presidential campaign across ALL 13 STATES!!!1!!one1!! given 1787 technology.)

We have already entirely subverted the original intent of the Electoral College by banning slavery and choosing to assign electors based on the state's popular vote. And the original intent of voting was that the majority of people would not be able to do it (women, natives, slaves).

What matters more than whether we've "strayed from the original intent" is whether the original intent is still desirable.

The original intent of the Senate was to represent the state as a whole. The House was meant to represent the voters.  The original Constitution had the state legislatures choosing their Senators.  It was changed a few decades ago to be popular vote. I'm trying to imagine what the Senate would look like if the original plan was the case, and the results I come up with would be an even more locked-in Republican majority.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1220 on: November 04, 2020, 05:47:00 PM »
Yes, and when that was written the difference in population between the smallest state (Delaware) and the largest (Pennsylvania) was 9x. Now its (Wyoming vs California) 68x.

What worked well enough back then does not necessarily work well now.

But your way would have California and a few other big states dominating the rest of the country in determining laws.  What might make sense to California and be brushed off as not really a hardship law could cause real problems in a low population state.  The low population states need some sort of representation that is not solely based on population numbers.

Montecarlo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1221 on: November 04, 2020, 05:47:37 PM »
If I told you "don't think of an elephant" - the first thing you will think of is an elephant! There is a fantastic book with this exact name - I loved it. It explains in detail how "framing" works.

Attempting to engage in conspiracy theories, especially to refute it, is the most surefire way to strengthen and propagate it!! So you are either badly miscalculating what you are trying to do, or actually actively propagating the conspiracy theory.

If it is the first, please stop!! If it's the later - then it would count as concern trolling.

Also, if it is the first, then my diagnosis of concern trolling was inaccurate!!

The best way to tackle conspiracy theories is to change the topic and carry on the discussion as if the opposite is true without explicitly stating it. Or if you are somewhat pugilistic (like yours truly) to ridicule so that the subject becomes your behavior rather than the conspiracy theory..

Trump is very good at it. There is a lot to learn from him on this.

I disagree with this on so many levels.  Perhaps if this was some random conspiracy theory with no legs I would be inclined to agree, but given this was retweeted by the president I think there is a duty to fight misinformation with facts.

ABC News this morning said Trump was tweeting a bunch of lies and left it at that.  Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is impressionable and is inclined to be a Trump supporter.  Not only is there something super fishy, but the mainstream media isn’t even addressing it.  Just calling him a liar and moving on.  It fits and reinforces the Trump narrative.

That narrative can be completely broken with the right facts:
This wasn’t official election data
A media site incorrectly entered data and it was corrected

ReadySetMillionaire

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1222 on: November 04, 2020, 05:55:52 PM »
I agree that the Twitter censoring could have used its own fact check or something similar. Just censoring with a warning fed into the Trump conspiracy hysteria.

That said — this disinformation and flat out lying on conservative Twitter today was absolutely appalling. There were some guys with pretty reputable podcasts who were stoking just completely baseless theories. Eric Trump tweeted fake videos. It was despicable.

Feeding into the madness was lazy tweets, such as the one from 538. That one said something like, “23,000 vote batch in Philly — all for Biden.” In reality, it was like 20k-3k. But then 538’s tweet was quote tweeted a million times by all the conservative knuckleheads.

Honestly, maybe I’m overreacting in the moment, but Twitter is extremely dangerous for democracy. We now have two elections in a row where one side does not view the election as legitimate.

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1223 on: November 04, 2020, 06:04:49 PM »
Yes, and when that was written the difference in population between the smallest state (Delaware) and the largest (Pennsylvania) was 9x. Now its (Wyoming vs California) 68x.

What worked well enough back then does not necessarily work well now.

But your way would have California and a few other big states dominating the rest of the country in determining laws.  What might make sense to California and be brushed off as not really a hardship law could cause real problems in a low population state.  The low population states need some sort of representation that is not solely based on population numbers.

That's the purpose of the Senate. California's representation in the House is pretty much in line with the population ratio.  EC supporters claim it keeps smaller states in the game, but the reality is only about 12 states get any attention during presidential election season.  The last two pages of this thread spell out exactly which ones because they're medium population/mixed political party states.  Every time.  The way our processes were laid out originally start to fall apart once you start factoring in political parties and parochial interests. The loser of the presidential election was supposed to be the VP! That was changed almost immediately.  Political parties transformed the dynamic from "difficult to get things done by design" to "impossible if one party doesn't want it to happen."  The Constitution was written assuming the Executive and Legislative would need to check each other. It didn't envision they'd ever be in cahoots.  Things change and should always be looked at with fresh eyes from time to time.

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1224 on: November 04, 2020, 06:05:56 PM »
Honestly, maybe I’m overreacting in the moment, but Twitter is extremely dangerous for democracy. We now have two elections in a row where one side does not view the election as legitimate.

Two elections? Trump claimed in 2016 to have won California and the popular vote but very few people actually believed him. Do you have proof of a lot of people believing Trump's California claims?

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1225 on: November 04, 2020, 06:09:44 PM »
Honestly, maybe I’m overreacting in the moment, but Twitter is extremely dangerous for democracy. We now have two elections in a row where one side does not view the election as legitimate.

Two elections? Trump claimed in 2016 to have won California and the popular vote but very few people actually believed him. Do you have proof of a lot of people believing Trump's California claims?

The only legitimacy claims I recall from 2016 was from Hillary's side complaining about the EC. Trump's tweets back then also included "my inauguration was bigger" back when nobody was paying much attention to his tweets. Now we know that he never intended for this election to be seen as legitimate whether he won or not.

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1226 on: November 04, 2020, 06:16:26 PM »
Honestly, maybe I’m overreacting in the moment, but Twitter is extremely dangerous for democracy. We now have two elections in a row where one side does not view the election as legitimate.

Two elections? Trump claimed in 2016 to have won California and the popular vote but very few people actually believed him. Do you have proof of a lot of people believing Trump's California claims?

I am referring to the Russia “collusion” hysteria.

bacchi

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1227 on: November 04, 2020, 06:38:16 PM »
Honestly, maybe I’m overreacting in the moment, but Twitter is extremely dangerous for democracy. We now have two elections in a row where one side does not view the election as legitimate.

Two elections? Trump claimed in 2016 to have won California and the popular vote but very few people actually believed him. Do you have proof of a lot of people believing Trump's California claims?

I am referring to the Russia “collusion” hysteria.

The "one side" -- a majority or significant minority of Democrats -- didn't believe that the actual election was illegitimate. There aren't and weren't massive calls about votes being stolen or manufactured or "found."

Trump tweeted and talked about fraud multiple times though.

Oct. 17, 2016:
Quote from: trumptweet
Of course there is large scale voter fraud happening on and before election day. Why do Republican leaders deny what is going on? So naive!

Quote from: trumponfoxnews
It's largely a rigged system. And you see it at the polling booths, too,” he said this month. “There are reports that when people vote for Republicans the entire ticket switches over to Democrats. You've seen that. It's happening at various places today. It's been reported. In other words, the machines, you put down a Republican and it registers as a Democrat. They've had a lot of complaints about that today.”

Nov 27, 2016:
Quote from: trumptweet
In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally

A PRRI/Atlantic poll found that
Quote from: https://www.prri.org/research/prri-atlantic-poll-post-election-white-working-class/
Fewer than one in ten Americans cite voter fraud (6%)

So who is this "one side" that believes/believed the 2016 election was illegitimate?

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EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1229 on: November 04, 2020, 07:53:48 PM »
I voted for the 3rd party candidate - the Coronavirus, it'll write itself in.  It's bound to surge going in to November if not sooner.

Sounds like the Coronavirus held a rally for itself in Tulsa yesterday.  Millions of strands showed up and really spread their message! 

Quote
“I don’t mind going into the arena with the pandemic and the spikes because that’s the beautiful thing about our country—I know that I am fully taking on the risk of possibly encountering or being exposed [to the virus], but as an American, that’s my right,” one Trump supporter told CNN.

I'm liking my original vote for the Coronavirus (3rd Party) winning in 2020 more and more.  Trump is having rallies again (he just really can't help himself), people are getting back to 'life as normal', and trust in a Trump-promoted vaccine will make less people want it.  Not to mention that fall and winter are sure-fire winners for this virus surging.  Four more years of Coronavirus?

I will sleep well tonight knowing that Biden has virtually wrapped up this insanity before Trump can emerge victorious and fire Fauci...  But we all must be humble, take a step back from our sturm and drang, and realize just how close we were teetering on the precipice.  The coronavirus almost did decisively win, and it is still a formidable foe...

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1230 on: November 04, 2020, 07:58:07 PM »
I voted for the 3rd party candidate - the Coronavirus, it'll write itself in.  It's bound to surge going in to November if not sooner.

Sounds like the Coronavirus held a rally for itself in Tulsa yesterday.  Millions of strands showed up and really spread their message! 

Quote
“I don’t mind going into the arena with the pandemic and the spikes because that’s the beautiful thing about our country—I know that I am fully taking on the risk of possibly encountering or being exposed [to the virus], but as an American, that’s my right,” one Trump supporter told CNN.

I'm liking my original vote for the Coronavirus (3rd Party) winning in 2020 more and more.  Trump is having rallies again (he just really can't help himself), people are getting back to 'life as normal', and trust in a Trump-promoted vaccine will make less people want it.  Not to mention that fall and winter are sure-fire winners for this virus surging.  Four more years of Coronavirus?

I will sleep well tonight knowing that Biden has virtually wrapped up this insanity before Trump can emerge victorious and fire Fauci...  But we all must be humble, take a step back from our sturm and drang, and realize just how close we were teetering on the precipice.  The coronavirus almost did decisively win, and it is still a formidable foe...

I've been wondering if Biden wins and Trump fires everybody he's got a beef with over the next month or so, would Biden hire any of them back? Would they be willing to chill for however many weeks it would take to reconfirm them?

ctuser1

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1231 on: November 04, 2020, 08:07:19 PM »
If I told you "don't think of an elephant" - the first thing you will think of is an elephant! There is a fantastic book with this exact name - I loved it. It explains in detail how "framing" works.

Attempting to engage in conspiracy theories, especially to refute it, is the most surefire way to strengthen and propagate it!! So you are either badly miscalculating what you are trying to do, or actually actively propagating the conspiracy theory.

If it is the first, please stop!! If it's the later - then it would count as concern trolling.

Also, if it is the first, then my diagnosis of concern trolling was inaccurate!!

The best way to tackle conspiracy theories is to change the topic and carry on the discussion as if the opposite is true without explicitly stating it. Or if you are somewhat pugilistic (like yours truly) to ridicule so that the subject becomes your behavior rather than the conspiracy theory..

Trump is very good at it. There is a lot to learn from him on this.

I disagree with this on so many levels.  Perhaps if this was some random conspiracy theory with no legs I would be inclined to agree, but given this was retweeted by the president I think there is a duty to fight misinformation with facts.

ABC News this morning said Trump was tweeting a bunch of lies and left it at that.  Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is impressionable and is inclined to be a Trump supporter.  Not only is there something super fishy, but the mainstream media isn’t even addressing it.  Just calling him a liar and moving on.  It fits and reinforces the Trump narrative.

That narrative can be completely broken with the right facts:
This wasn’t official election data
A media site incorrectly entered data and it was corrected

If you try it out, you might find pivoting is a much better strategy when talking to people who are prone to consuming conspiracy theories.

e.g. when the topic of "stealing elections" come up, talk about https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/11/03/postal-service-blows-deadline-check-missing-mail-ballots/6149643002/...

"Can you believe what Trump and his boy DeJoy did.... ??"

Facts did not originate the conspiracy theory, facts won't counter them.

Rimu05

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1232 on: November 04, 2020, 08:10:26 PM »
I didn’t vote for Trump but put a bet on him to win this easily. I was being a braggadocious annoyance with the group I betted with, then I woke up this morning and my bet went to shit in what I felt like was mere moments. Arizona was my biggest betrayal, followed by Wisconsin and Michigan. I think living in Florida skewed my bias a little bit. I just don’t understand how the Republicans botched this.

On that note, I have yet to win an election bet so I guess that’s something. I botched 2016 by a large margin and botched this one by a large margin too. I’m starting to think the opposite of what I bet will always win.

On the more serious political side: As a fence sitter who is a one issue voter, I genuinely didn’t want to make the vote I did but I still voted. I didn’t feel proud and felt a little disgusted, but it is what it is. I didn’t vote in 2016 and was not planning to this time either. I’m just tired at having to vote begrudgingly even when I don’t really have any violent feelings about the other side. I just feel like they are both the same thing. I spent some time considering Kanye West for that reason but I didn’t see how that was any better than just staying at home. 

BicycleB

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1233 on: November 04, 2020, 08:46:12 PM »
I didn’t vote for Trump but put a bet on him to win this easily. I was being a braggadocious annoyance with the group I betted with, then I woke up this morning and my bet went to shit in what I felt like was mere moments. Arizona was my biggest betrayal, followed by Wisconsin and Michigan. I think living in Florida skewed my bias a little bit. I just don’t understand how the Republicans botched this.

On that note, I have yet to win an election bet so I guess that’s something. I botched 2016 by a large margin and botched this one by a large margin too. I’m starting to think the opposite of what I bet will always win.

On the more serious political side: As a fence sitter who is a one issue voter, I genuinely didn’t want to make the vote I did but I still voted. I didn’t feel proud and felt a little disgusted, but it is what it is. I didn’t vote in 2016 and was not planning to this time either. I’m just tired at having to vote begrudgingly even when I don’t really have any violent feelings about the other side. I just feel like they are both the same thing. I spent some time considering Kanye West for that reason but I didn’t see how that was any better than just staying at home.

That is potentially a valuable talent!  :)

Jokes aside, I'm glad you voted your issue.

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1234 on: November 04, 2020, 08:56:36 PM »
Arizona was my biggest betrayal,

Being an Arizona voter, I'm curious if the state is truly turning purple, people liked the Democrat candidates that much, or just really don't like Martha McSally. Essentially she lost the same Senate seat twice in two years.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1235 on: November 04, 2020, 09:09:05 PM »
Not to jinx all of this, but I'm finding it hard to imagine a United States where I'm not constantly on edge worrying about the President's latest tweet or reading the headline about the absurd position 'the United States' is taking on (insert whatever sensible thing most Americans agree on, but the President is taking the opposite stance on)...

I luxuriate in the idea that I might go a whole week without even caring what the President is either excited or upset about...  It will almost be like living in a first world country again.

Omy

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1236 on: November 04, 2020, 09:20:14 PM »
This^^^^^. And getting the DOJ back to working for the US instead of doing Trump's bidding.

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1237 on: November 04, 2020, 09:48:21 PM »
I luxuriate in the idea that I might go a whole week without even caring what the President is either excited or upset about...  It will almost be like living in a first world country again.

It's this aspect of Biden's age that I want to look forward to. I want him to be the stereotypical old person who doesn't know how to communicate through Twitter and will stick with TV, email, and legislation.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1238 on: November 04, 2020, 10:11:25 PM »
The US Stock Markets also seem to be prematurely celebrating a Biden Presidency, so having one's cake and eating it too has a reasonable path to actually happening :)  This could be my best week in a long time...

Travis

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1239 on: November 04, 2020, 11:57:32 PM »
Trumps comments early this morning are disgraceful and I’m happy he is losing, but ABC news is falsely claiming he said he wants to stop counting votes.

Go ahead and read his Twitter feed from today. He's claiming every vote counted from here on has been "found" or "secretly dumped" on the precincts to be counted. Or go back and read his Twitter and speeches from the last couple months. It's always been his opinion that votes should not be counted after election day. He's specifically cited mail-in ballots as having "power of destruction."

edit: except for Arizona. He insists on every one of those.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 04:32:40 AM by Travis »

ctuser1

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1240 on: November 05, 2020, 04:31:00 AM »
Yes, and when that was written the difference in population between the smallest state (Delaware) and the largest (Pennsylvania) was 9x. Now its (Wyoming vs California) 68x.

What worked well enough back then does not necessarily work well now.

But your way would have California and a few other big states dominating the rest of the country in determining laws.  What might make sense to California and be brushed off as not really a hardship law could cause real problems in a low population state.  The low population states need some sort of representation that is not solely based on population numbers.

Genuine question: Is 1 American from a low-population state more equal than 1 American from California?

Leading question: Is 1 American from California somehow *less* than 1 American from Wyoming??

Aggressive question: Am I (from a high population density state) less equal than you (presumably from a low population density state)?
 
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 04:32:44 AM by ctuser1 »

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1241 on: November 05, 2020, 05:29:47 AM »
Trumps comments early this morning are disgraceful and I’m happy he is losing, but ABC news is falsely claiming he said he wants to stop counting votes.

Go ahead and read his Twitter feed from today. He's claiming every vote counted from here on has been "found" or "secretly dumped" on the precincts to be counted. Or go back and read his Twitter and speeches from the last couple months. It's always been his opinion that votes should not be counted after election day. He's specifically cited mail-in ballots as having "power of destruction."

edit: except for Arizona. He insists on every one of those.

Someone should tell his cult followers in Arizona that they shouldn't be chanting "Stop the count" and "Stop the vote" AP News: Trump backers converge on vote centers in Michigan, Arizona

Montecarlo

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1242 on: November 05, 2020, 05:33:10 AM »
Trumps comments early this morning are disgraceful and I’m happy he is losing, but ABC news is falsely claiming he said he wants to stop counting votes.

Go ahead and read his Twitter feed from today. He's claiming every vote counted from here on has been "found" or "secretly dumped" on the precincts to be counted. Or go back and read his Twitter and speeches from the last couple months. It's always been his opinion that votes should not be counted after election day. He's specifically cited mail-in ballots as having "power of destruction."

edit: except for Arizona. He insists on every one of those.

Yep... Hopefully soon this will all be a painful memory

iris lily

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1243 on: November 05, 2020, 05:49:47 AM »
I luxuriate in the idea that I might go a whole week without even caring what the President is either excited or upset about...  It will almost be like living in a first world country again.

It's this aspect of Biden's age that I want to look forward to. I want him to be the stereotypical old person who doesn't know how to communicate through Twitter and will stick with TV, email, and legislation.

This is hilarious!

We all need this rest. Silence from the  White House for a bit.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2020, 06:20:46 AM by iris lily »

OtherJen

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1244 on: November 05, 2020, 05:53:21 AM »
I luxuriate in the idea that I might go a whole week without even caring what the President is either excited or upset about...  It will almost be like living in a first world country again.

It's this aspect of Biden's age that I want to look forward to. I want him to be the stereotypical old person who doesn't know how to communicate through Twitter and will stick with TV, email, and legislation.

This is hilarious!

We all need this rest. Silence from the  White House for a but.

Yes. It sounds blissful.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1245 on: November 05, 2020, 06:16:21 AM »
Yes, and when that was written the difference in population between the smallest state (Delaware) and the largest (Pennsylvania) was 9x. Now its (Wyoming vs California) 68x.

What worked well enough back then does not necessarily work well now.

But your way would have California and a few other big states dominating the rest of the country in determining laws.  What might make sense to California and be brushed off as not really a hardship law could cause real problems in a low population state.  The low population states need some sort of representation that is not solely based on population numbers.

Genuine question: Is 1 American from a low-population state more equal than 1 American from California?

Leading question: Is 1 American from California somehow *less* than 1 American from Wyoming??

Aggressive question: Am I (from a high population density state) less equal than you (presumably from a low population density state)?

Don't high population states already have more influence on the legislative branch through increased representation in the HoR?

terran

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1246 on: November 05, 2020, 06:43:33 AM »
Yes, and when that was written the difference in population between the smallest state (Delaware) and the largest (Pennsylvania) was 9x. Now its (Wyoming vs California) 68x.

What worked well enough back then does not necessarily work well now.

But your way would have California and a few other big states dominating the rest of the country in determining laws.  What might make sense to California and be brushed off as not really a hardship law could cause real problems in a low population state.  The low population states need some sort of representation that is not solely based on population numbers.

Genuine question: Is 1 American from a low-population state more equal than 1 American from California?

Leading question: Is 1 American from California somehow *less* than 1 American from Wyoming??

Aggressive question: Am I (from a high population density state) less equal than you (presumably from a low population density state)?

Don't high population states already have more influence on the legislative branch through increased representation in the HoR?

No. The House apportions congress people by population, but each state gets at least 1 regardless of population and the Reapportionment Act of 1929 capped the total at 435. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_congressional_apportionment for more.

Even if it were true that the House was proportional, that would only mean that one part of one branch of government offered equal representation per person since the senate is not proportional as it's 2 senators per state, and the president isn't elected proportionally because of the electoral college. I suspect it could even be argued that if the other branches aren't proportional, then the judicial branch is also not proportional given that they're appointed by a the other branches.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1247 on: November 05, 2020, 06:50:48 AM »
Yes, and when that was written the difference in population between the smallest state (Delaware) and the largest (Pennsylvania) was 9x. Now its (Wyoming vs California) 68x.

What worked well enough back then does not necessarily work well now.

But your way would have California and a few other big states dominating the rest of the country in determining laws.  What might make sense to California and be brushed off as not really a hardship law could cause real problems in a low population state.  The low population states need some sort of representation that is not solely based on population numbers.

Genuine question: Is 1 American from a low-population state more equal than 1 American from California?

Leading question: Is 1 American from California somehow *less* than 1 American from Wyoming??

Aggressive question: Am I (from a high population density state) less equal than you (presumably from a low population density state)?

It is that states have needs at the federal level that are not always tied to population density.

I don't know how to come up with a good example but say that Montana was a super high population state, like California big.    Then say that all the gulf states were extremely low population.   With your system, Montana would control all of the federal laws that also govern the gulf states.  Montana might decide that since people from Montana face no risk of hurricanes, it would make sense to cut aid for hurricane relief.   The gulf states would just have to sit and take it as they would have no sway in Congress at all.

It is a silly example but all I can come up with before coffee.

Barbaebigode

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1248 on: November 05, 2020, 07:02:55 AM »
Yes, and when that was written the difference in population between the smallest state (Delaware) and the largest (Pennsylvania) was 9x. Now its (Wyoming vs California) 68x.

What worked well enough back then does not necessarily work well now.

But your way would have California and a few other big states dominating the rest of the country in determining laws.  What might make sense to California and be brushed off as not really a hardship law could cause real problems in a low population state.  The low population states need some sort of representation that is not solely based on population numbers.

Genuine question: Is 1 American from a low-population state more equal than 1 American from California?

Leading question: Is 1 American from California somehow *less* than 1 American from Wyoming??

Aggressive question: Am I (from a high population density state) less equal than you (presumably from a low population density state)?

It is that states have needs at the federal level that are not always tied to population density.

I don't know how to come up with a good example but say that Montana was a super high population state, like California big.    Then say that all the gulf states were extremely low population.   With your system, Montana would control all of the federal laws that also govern the gulf states.  Montana might decide that since people from Montana face no risk of hurricanes, it would make sense to cut aid for hurricane relief.   The gulf states would just have to sit and take it as they would have no sway in Congress at all.

It is a silly example but all I can come up with before coffee.

The gulf states already are a minority and yet, they receive hurricane relief.

You could have a majority rule with the constitution granting every person or state basic rights that could only be changed with a large majority. Are there real life examples of developed countries with a majority rule that screw the minority as badly as cutting disaster relief?

Freedom2016

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Re: Poll: Who will win the 2020 U.S. Presidential Election?
« Reply #1249 on: November 05, 2020, 07:09:00 AM »
I'm exhausted and tense today. Should I be worried about Arizona? Is Maricopa super red, and will Trump catch up/surpass Biden once counting is done? Ahhhhhhh!