Poll

Where do you fall on the political spectrum?

Left Authoritarian
Centrist Authoritarian
Right Authoritarian
Left Centrist
Centrist
Right Centrist
Left Libertarian
Centrist Libertarian
Right Libertarian

Author Topic: Political Leanings of Mustachians?  (Read 55536 times)

Spec7re

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 9
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #100 on: December 23, 2014, 11:21:01 PM »
I answered right-libertarian and consider myself philosophically libertarian, but I could be convinced to support policies such as basic income and universal healthcare within the context of the current system.  I'm a big supporter of free markets and a live and let live mentality.  I believe most "regulations" are sponsored by large corporations at the expense of the small.  I'm also becoming less and less of a fan of the patent system.

What does the left-right axis actually mean with respect to the quiz?  Libertarian versions of this chart usually label it as economic freedom.  Some here are interpreting it as related to property ownership (communal vs individual).  I find it a bit hard to believe that the majority of the members of an FI forum lean toward communal property ownership.

Anyway, I didn't actually finish the quiz because I thought some of the questions were pointless, and I think the questions are skewed to put most people in the left-libertarian corner.  For those identifying as left-libertarian, what policies do you support that put you on the left?

Daley

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4834
  • Location: Cow country. Moo.
  • Still kickin', I guess.
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #101 on: December 24, 2014, 12:15:23 AM »
Exactly, defensive violence is A-OK, as it is a defense of one's natural rights. Libertarianism essentially boils down to property rights, self-ownership, and the non aggression principle. The entirety of Mr. Daley's post is irrelevant or null and void when considering this, as his premise is based upon a false assumption that defensive violence in response to an initiation of force by another person or party is not acceptable to libertarians.

Charming rebuttal, but you still don't get it.

Any initiation of violence for any reason is an authoritarian move. You cannot preserve personal property without the force of authority or retribution. FULL STOP. Socialism is to capitalism the same way libertarianism on this graph is to authoritarianism.

It might be better understood this way: Authoritarianism is legislating self interest and behaviors before that of your fellow man. Libertarianism in regard to this graph is preserving personal liberties by preserving the interests of your fellow man. Capitalism is placing ownership of property for self interest before that of your fellow man. Socialism is preserving personal access to resources through the preservation of access for the betterment of your fellow man.

Just as you cannot legislate socialism, you cannot own anything without exercising force. That said, of the two grand experiments, the Soviets were a lot more successful at it than the current minarchist utopia of Somalia (this is partly mentioned tongue-in-cheek), which is an example of what happens when ownership of property has insufficient governmental force of authority to preserve it or prevent its usage as a tool of oppression. You can't really do one without the other.

Here is where you and Spork are both wrong about the ideas of socio-anarchism (I refuse to call myself a libertarian anymore because of the hijacking of the term by people specifically like yourself), the socialism is just as much a deliberate voluntary choice as the libertarianism is and is established through the same sort of social contract. It can be summed up nicely as what is yours is yours, and what is mine is yours. There is no need for any form of violence or any form of authoritarian regime to enforce this as it is driven by voluntary selflessness on both axes for the benefit of all, as a healthy community equally benefits the self. You cannot steal what you believe to be available for everyone to use and owned by nobody. It works on small scales, and has a history of working on small scales for millennia amongst groups of people who are of this mindset. What always spoils it is some greedy a**hole who wants more than others (either personal control or material goods) to the point of harming their fellow man. Sound familiar?

There's always an a**hole, and the larger a group you get together, the greater likelihood of there being at least one of these selfish a**holes. The only way to combat that is through human authoritarian force and the abolishment of communal property. Personal greed is always going to drive an increase in authoritarianism to combat it, and the only way to keep things in balance is to have the approximate equal value of authoritarian power exercised against a similar level of property rights (or vice versa if you want). Authoritarian violence and personal property go hand in hand, and one is a natural and human reaction to the imposition of the other.

Unfortunately, the extremes of either of these two axes is dictatorships and mega-corporations, and eventually you get a fusing of absolute power and corruption with the two up in that lovely little upper right hand corner where the entire world is driving towards as we expand the tribes to be ever more encompassing of a planet full of a**holes. Like it or not, the natural result of the preservation of personal property and ownership is a concentration of huge sums of wealth and property owned by a small minority that results in things like mega-corporations, and that wealth cannot be preserved without an equal application of authoritarian force through government. Here-in lies the hypocrisy for people like yourself. You can no more realistically preserve the ownership of all your crap without the sprawling active force of big government to preserve it than you can dictate by force to other people to care for and love their neighbor as they love themselves.

Which brings us to the question: what do you value more - your freedom or your private possessions? One by necessity must be sacrificed for the preservation of the other.



What does the left-right axis actually mean with respect to the quiz?  Libertarian versions of this chart usually label it as economic freedom.  Some here are interpreting it as related to property ownership (communal vs individual).  I find it a bit hard to believe that the majority of the members of an FI forum lean toward communal property ownership.

"Economic freedom" hinges on the preservation of property ownership, which by necessity denies the freedom of access and usage to all but an individual. It's an oxymoron, like military intelligence. Your observation also strikes at the very heart of my other post. It's easy to claim you support liberty and justice for all, but it's quite another thing to actually be selfless enough to do what's necessary to preserve it.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 12:25:07 AM by I.P. Daley »

wepner

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 197
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Yokohama, Japan
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #102 on: December 24, 2014, 12:45:43 AM »


Seems to be pretty typical around here.

NICE!

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 682
  • Location: Africa
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #103 on: December 24, 2014, 04:17:48 AM »
I'm almost all the way at the bottom (Libertarian), while a little to the right on economics. I'd say I'm farther right on the axis than the quiz believes, though.

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #104 on: December 24, 2014, 04:55:17 AM »
Left libertarian in your views is actually someone who wants individual rights and places the rights of individuals above corporations. They also do not trust corporations to do what they should to protect the environment and treat individuals well.

+1   Any student of history understands how ugly the world is when corporations have little/ no regulations.  See, for example, the United States from 1870 - roughly 1934.

This sums up my political views pretty well.  I could never subscribe to the Cato Institute's brand of right-wing corporate libertarianism.  It just leads to a different kind of tyranny imposed by business interests that have pricing power (over goods & services and labor) and the freedom to externalize costs (environmental damage that will be paid for by our grandchildren).  Regulations limiting monopoly/oligopoly power and externalized costs are just as essential for a free society as are regulations that protect property rights.  Of course, the devil is in the details.  It is always going to be difficult to locate the fine line between protecting the populace from corporate greed vs. using the regulatory state to steal from one group and give to another.

Metta

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 773
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #105 on: December 24, 2014, 05:08:06 AM »
Left Libertarian. 


MrFancypants

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #106 on: December 24, 2014, 06:30:54 AM »
Left/liberatarian is an oxymoron.

Only if you cherry pick positions on various issues and adhere strictly to the modern "American Libertarian" definition.  The broad definition of "libertarian" is anarchist if taken to the extreme, but generally simply means less government where "authoritarian" means more government.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 06:32:40 AM by Mykl »

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3698
  • Location: Germany
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #107 on: December 24, 2014, 06:50:07 AM »
For all those who wonder about their placement or why there are so many leftists - dont forget that this is a US based questionaire.

Think "Obamacare" universal health care as communistic instead of human right for a reference frame.

As european you can easily put +2 on right.
I am strongly left libertarian.

I like 2 pictures:
http://stevensonfinancialmarketing.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/the-myth-of-capitalism-vs-socialism-and-critical-thinking/
http://therealsingapore.com/content/my-message-may-day-socialism-will-only-harm-workers

GetItRight

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 627
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #108 on: December 24, 2014, 09:56:36 AM »
... Any initiation of violence for any reason is an authoritarian move. You cannot preserve personal property without the force of authority or retribution. FULL STOP. Socialism is to capitalism the same way libertarianism on this graph is to authoritarianism.
...
Just as you cannot legislate socialism, you cannot own anything without exercising force. That said, of the two grand experiments, the Soviets were a lot more successful at it than the current minarchist utopia of Somalia (this is partly mentioned tongue-in-cheek), which is an example of what happens when ownership of property has insufficient governmental force of authority to preserve it or prevent its usage as a tool of oppression. You can't really do one without the other.

You seem very hung up on government being the only entity that can use force or violence. Government by its very nature cannot use violence defensively, it can only initiate violence. What is government? Government is a monopoly on the use of violence in a given geographic area. Individuals can use force to defend their property against an aggressor, either directly or by way of hired or volunteer help (i.e. private security company, neighbor, etc.). Once you acknowledge what government is, and that non government individuals are capable of using defensive force against an aggressor (purse snatcher, thief, rapist, etc.) I think it will be less confusing for you.

Here is where you and Spork are both wrong about the ideas of socio-anarchism (I refuse to call myself a libertarian anymore because of the hijacking of the term by people specifically like yourself), the socialism is just as much a deliberate voluntary choice as the libertarianism is and is established through the same sort of social contract. It can be summed up nicely as what is yours is yours, and what is mine is yours. There is no need for any form of violence or any form of authoritarian regime to enforce this as it is driven by voluntary selflessness on both axes for the benefit of all, as a healthy community equally benefits the self. You cannot steal what you believe to be available for everyone to use and owned by nobody. It works on small scales, and has a history of working on small scales for millennia amongst groups of people who are of this mindset. What always spoils it is some greedy a**hole who wants more than others (either personal control or material goods) to the point of harming their fellow man. Sound familiar?

There's always an a**hole, and the larger a group you get together, the greater likelihood of there being at least one of these selfish a**holes. The only way to combat that is through human authoritarian force and the abolishment of communal property. Personal greed is always going to drive an increase in authoritarianism to combat it, and the only way to keep things in balance is to have the approximate equal value of authoritarian power exercised against a similar level of property rights (or vice versa if you want). Authoritarian violence and personal property go hand in hand, and one is a natural and human reaction to the imposition of the other.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems you are claiming socialism (what's yours is mine)  in the current form in North America, does not require authoritarian violence. Let's take an example, the current authoritarian regime steals somewhere north of 25% on my income directly. I don't want that stolen from me, particularly while I'm still in teh debt reduction stage. You think the current authoritarian regime will not use violence against me if I voluntarily choose not to pay what they demand? It doesn't work that way. If I don't pay what they demand, the eventual conclusion is that they will either kill me or cage me, what I have not aggressed against anyone. Perhaps you're talking about some hypothetical socialist society, but the current socialist society is not voluntary, it is enforced at the barrel of a government gun.

Not you acknowledge corrupt power craving individuals exist who will exert control over others or steal their property. Any amount of that is harming their fellow man if it is not voluntary, as the only way to enforce it is with aggressive violence. You acknowledge that these people, sociopaths, exist and you want to consolidate them into a group called government that holds a monopoly on the use of violence against all individuals in a given geographic area.

You then claim that these sociopaths will protect individual property rights? We have this system now, how is it working? Right off the bat the sociopaths, authoritarian regime, claim ownership of 15%-50% of the fruits of your labor. It should not be a stretch for anyone here to understand that you trade time for money, which is trading your life for money. This is slavery, call it 15%-50% slavery or whatever you like, but the government essentially claims to own you and allow you to keep some amount of the fruits of your labor. So under the current socialist/fascist regime, you do not have self ownership. There's a pretty big strike against the authority you seem to be claiming is benevolent with regard to personal property.

Has anything ever been stolen from you? Did you go the the authorities and request help getting your property back or finding the thief and getting compensated for what was stolen? How well does that work under the current system? Even if you know exactly who stole your property and where it is, it's extremely difficult to get the current authoritarian regime to do anything about it. It is not their job, you are not the customer, and they have no incentive to recover your property or hold the thief liable for what was taken from you. If you are fortuante enough that the authorities capture the thief, then even more fortunate that in court you are awarded a judgement in compensation for your loss, you are extremely unlikely to receive anything from the thief. The current authoritarian regime will not use force or the threat of violence to ensure that you are compensated after a judgement is made. There is no incentive for that, but there is a much greater incentive for the current authoritarian regime to use violence to steal property from individuals who have committed no crime or harmed nobody. Examples of this are civil asset forfeiture (theft of money or other property arbitrarily with no trial or proof of a crime) and victimless crimes such as recreational drug use, purchasing sudafed, prostitution, gambling, etc.

With just those few examples it should be exceedingly clear that the current system you seem to advocate does not work as you claim.

...Like it or not, the natural result of the preservation of personal property and ownership is a concentration of huge sums of wealth and property owned by a small minority that results in things like mega-corporations, and that wealth cannot be preserved without an equal application of authoritarian force through government. Here-in lies the hypocrisy for people like yourself. You can no more realistically preserve the ownership of all your crap without the sprawling active force of big government to preserve it than you can dictate by force to other people to care for and love their neighbor as they love themselves.

Again, this is all irrelevance and makes no sense once you accept the fact that individuals can use defensive violence. You also fail to explain how these mega corporations you mention are eliminating wealth. Don't most here invest in these mega corporations and profit handsomely from it? Why would I need a sprawling active force of big government to protect me from these mega corporations? Apple is not going to invade my neighborhood and steal everyones wealth. Oh wait... (see what I did there?) But in all seriousness you have not explained exactly how the current (or your proposed) government regime of violence or sprawling active force of big government is protecting private ownership of property or who they are protecting that property from or why anyone would need them. Could you explain those things?

Which brings us to the question: what do you value more - your freedom or your private possessions? One by necessity must be sacrificed for the preservation of the other.

This is a false dichotomy.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7101
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #109 on: December 24, 2014, 11:21:02 AM »
nm, will watch from sidelines
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 12:15:47 PM by bacchi »

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #110 on: December 24, 2014, 12:46:18 PM »
IP and GetitRight....

I try really hard to not go off on a huge rant in these situations...  I have a history of being argumentative and I'd rather pass.  I am pretty sure I understand IP's point of view and he mine, so me ranting on is likely to just create friction where I'd rather not see it.  (GetItRight and I are probably of similar molds politically.) 

There are 2 ideals at play that I see in left vs libertarian: "greatest good for the greatest number" vs. "the end does not justify the means".  I understand both sides of those... and I don't see either side moving on those larger issues.

While I have some nice (to me) ideal of some libertarian utopia, I think the chances of it happening are right up there with me sprouting wings and flying.  What I personally would like to see the libertarian movement do is forget --at least temporarily-- about the hard questions.  I'd like to see them vigorously promote things we can get firm movement on.  For example, we could start with a principle of "let's not give welfare to rich people" and work our way out from there.

TrulyStashin

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1024
  • Location: Mid-Sized Southern City
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #111 on: December 24, 2014, 01:16:07 PM »
Left libertarian in your views is actually someone who wants individual rights and places the rights of individuals above corporations. They also do not trust corporations to do what they should to protect the environment and treat individuals well.

+1   Any student of history understands how ugly the world is when corporations have little/ no regulations.  See, for example, the United States from 1870 - roughly 1934.

This sums up my political views pretty well.  I could never subscribe to the Cato Institute's brand of right-wing corporate libertarianism.  It just leads to a different kind of tyranny imposed by business interests that have pricing power (over goods & services and labor) and the freedom to externalize costs (environmental damage that will be paid for by our grandchildren).  Regulations limiting monopoly/oligopoly power and externalized costs are just as essential for a free society as are regulations that protect property rights.  Of course, the devil is in the details.  It is always going to be difficult to locate the fine line between protecting the populace from corporate greed vs. using the regulatory state to steal from one group and give to another.

Well said, Monkey Uncle.  I'll add to your point that, in the U.S. at least, there are Constitutional limits on government power (the Bill of Rights and the checks and balances found in the Articles) that do not apply to corporations.  So, in the U.S., corporations can infringe on our civil liberties in ways that the government cannot.  For example, the corporate owners of a shopping mall can impose limits/ bans on free speech that would be thrown out by our courts if the government did it.  Example 2, corporations can test all employees for drugs without probable cause and a search warrant, both of which are required before governments can test for drug use (there are exceptions for those in public safety professions).

It's easy for corporations to increase their power and because there are no Constitutional limits on them and they're not accountable to voters, it is very hard to check their power.  That's a dangerous combination for a supposedly free people.

Daley

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4834
  • Location: Cow country. Moo.
  • Still kickin', I guess.
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #112 on: December 24, 2014, 04:25:42 PM »
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you

This is an understatement that cannot be measured without the usage of irrational numbers. I'm not going to argue with some internet libertarian who's so blinded by their own rhetoric that they can't understand the difference between the simple philosophies of, "what's mine is yours, and yours is yours" versus "what's mine is yours, and yours is mine", let alone parse the nuance and detail of what I actually stated.

I'll leave you with a simple hint, though: Socialism isn't evil. Authoritarianism is evil. Any actions that facilitates the need of authority and force is subsequently evil as well. The attitude of what's mine is mine will always require the exertion of force to maintain.

Daley

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4834
  • Location: Cow country. Moo.
  • Still kickin', I guess.
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #113 on: December 24, 2014, 04:28:28 PM »
While I have some nice (to me) ideal of some libertarian utopia, I think the chances of it happening are right up there with me sprouting wings and flying.

You know we're always cool because of this very statement.

Cressida

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2376
  • Location: Sunset Zone 5
  • gender is a hierarchy
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #114 on: December 24, 2014, 10:03:50 PM »
I'm just trying to figure out how there are 8 people calling themselves Left Authoritarian. Is there anyone on Earth in that category except maybe Pope Francis?

FireYourJob

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 110
    • Get Rich or Die Trying!
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #115 on: December 24, 2014, 11:57:17 PM »
I like how this chart puts Mitt Romney and Barak Obama in practically the same spot. No kidding.

From talking to a vast number of people on this, it doesn't totally surprise me.  For those that like Reagan, Romney was well left of him.  Obama is a bit of an enigma with people thinking he ranges anywhere from very left to slightly left.

larmando

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 193
  • Location: Germany
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #116 on: December 25, 2014, 03:21:58 AM »
Quite in line with the majority here, except maybe more libertarian and more left :)

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #117 on: December 25, 2014, 04:42:31 AM »
I'm just trying to figure out how there are 8 people calling themselves Left Authoritarian. Is there anyone on Earth in that category except maybe Pope Francis?

This is what you'd get if Barack Obama (authoritarian/fake lefty) and Elizabeth Warren (true lefty) had a baby.

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3698
  • Location: Germany
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #118 on: December 25, 2014, 05:57:17 AM »
As always


Thats even 2/2 more then me.
Auch Pirat?

anisotropy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 681
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #119 on: December 25, 2014, 08:41:40 AM »
This really is fascinating to me. This test has been around forever, and I remember when I used to take it, I was pretty far to the left libertarian. But taking it today gives this:



I really have changed as I've gotten older.

I think one major difference is that I now identify with the capitalist class. As a child, I always identified with people being oppressed and having a hard time in life. But now I identify with the capitalists.


ya same here.... I was def in the top left corner when I was 14. HIGH FIVE !!!!

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3698
  • Location: Germany
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #120 on: December 25, 2014, 08:47:44 AM »
I would have thought the avatar is rather explicit. ;)
Ah, didnt look there, so 2nd choice :D

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #121 on: December 25, 2014, 08:47:57 AM »
While I have some nice (to me) ideal of some libertarian utopia, I think the chances of it happening are right up there with me sprouting wings and flying.

You know we're always cool because of this very statement.

We've been cool for a long while.  I get along with folks with vastly different political/religious ideas -- both super left and super right. 

MsWillow

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 135
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #122 on: December 25, 2014, 09:03:19 AM »
Apparently, there is a trend.

Pooperman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2880
  • Age: 34
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #123 on: December 26, 2014, 11:09:06 AM »
With just under 300 votes, it seems as if this forum is heavily Left Libertarian.

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #124 on: December 27, 2014, 03:47:08 AM »
With just under 300 votes, it seems as if this forum is heavily Left Libertarian.

Yes but who the hell can we vote for?

Monkey Uncle

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1742
  • Location: West-by-god-Virginia
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #125 on: December 27, 2014, 04:29:57 AM »
With just under 300 votes, it seems as if this forum is heavily Left Libertarian.

Yes but who the hell can we vote for?

Anybody want to be a write-in for 2016?

Pooperman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2880
  • Age: 34
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #126 on: December 27, 2014, 04:37:41 AM »
With just under 300 votes, it seems as if this forum is heavily Left Libertarian.

Yes but who the hell can we vote for?

Anybody want to be a write-in for 2016?

Not me. The closest US party is the Green Party, or everyone's favorite 3rd party that wins nothing. We can change that, all 300 of us :P.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #127 on: December 27, 2014, 10:33:02 AM »
With just under 300 votes, it seems as if this forum is heavily Left Libertarian.

Yes but who the hell can we vote for?

Anybody want to be a write-in for 2016?

Not me. The closest US party is the Green Party, or everyone's favorite 3rd party that wins nothing. We can change that, all 300 of us :P.

Our write-in can get more than their on-ballot candidate!  ;)
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

Freestyler

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 59
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #128 on: January 13, 2015, 06:06:51 PM »
Read the page, didn´t see the test and voted. Saw the test afterwards, did it and found I wasn´t mistaken ;-)



Happy to be in that right hand down quadrant that I feel I belong to and also happy that I wasn´t right at the far corner after all.

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5688
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #129 on: January 13, 2015, 06:37:49 PM »
Read the page, didn´t see the test and voted. Saw the test afterwards, did it and found I wasn´t mistaken ;-)



Happy to be in that right hand down quadrant that I feel I belong to and also happy that I wasn´t right at the far corner after all.

Your chart looks like mine, I'm just sorry that I was incapable of posting it.  :)

NICE!

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 682
  • Location: Africa
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #130 on: January 13, 2015, 10:00:03 PM »
Centrist/Center-Right Libertarian. I think both Ron Wyden and Rand Paul are the best choices available when viewing actual sitting politicians. Neither is ideal, but they are far closer than many of their contemporaries.

Pooperman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2880
  • Age: 34
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #131 on: January 14, 2015, 02:13:08 AM »
The thing you notice about politics is that for every unit of Social Freedom, there is a corresponding unit of Economic Authoritarianism and the other way around. Typically follows the y=x trajectory. FYI, Ran Paul is Right Authoritarian along with 99% of all US politicians.

NICE!

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 682
  • Location: Africa
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #132 on: January 14, 2015, 05:20:42 AM »
The thing you notice about politics is that for every unit of Social Freedom, there is a corresponding unit of Economic Authoritarianism and the other way around. Typically follows the y=x trajectory. FYI, Ran Paul is Right Authoritarian along with 99% of all US politicians.

No arguing there, just pointing out who was closest to what I view as ideal on my axis.

Pooperman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2880
  • Age: 34
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #133 on: January 14, 2015, 07:08:30 AM »
We've been far too simplistic. Lets go all out!



I'm a Left Libertarian (+1 to not having to change my vote!)

midweststache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 680
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #134 on: January 14, 2015, 07:17:18 AM »
I'm right in the corner where anarcho-socialism meets anarcho-collectivism and anarcho-communism.

If this is the political stance where everyone sits in a circle and since Kum Ba Yah, then it's a correct assessment of my leanings.

twbird18

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 128
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #135 on: January 14, 2015, 07:18:08 AM »
I'm almost in the center actually surprised to be to the left and not the right


« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 07:22:17 AM by twbird18 »

Philociraptor

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1131
  • Age: 34
  • Location: NTX
  • Eat. Sleep. Invest. Repeat.
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #136 on: January 14, 2015, 08:07:40 AM »
A short few years ago I would likely have been right authoritarian, and yet, here I am right in the middle of left libertarian.

arebelspy

  • Administrator
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *****
  • Posts: 28444
  • Age: -997
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #137 on: January 14, 2015, 09:52:29 AM »
We've been far too simplistic. Lets go all out!



Hmm.. Under that I fall under "syndicalism" (my graph is on p1 of this thread).

When I google that, it says that syndicalism is "a movement for transferring the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution to workers' unions. Influenced by Proudhon and by the French social philosopher Georges Sorel (1847–1922), syndicalism developed in French labor unions during the late 19th century and was at its most vigorous between 1900 and 1914, particularly in France, Italy, Spain, and the US."

I'm quite anti-union, however.  So it seems weird to peg a category based solely on one trait like that without taking into account all of the other factors that put me in that area of the graph.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
If you want to know more about me, this Business Insider profile tells the story pretty well.
I (rarely) blog at AdventuringAlong.com. Check out the Now page to see what I'm up to currently.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23251
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #138 on: January 14, 2015, 10:01:43 AM »
Yeah, it seems a bit inaccurate.  I'm not into anarcho-communism at all.  I don't advocate the abolition of the state, abolition of capitalism, or abolition of wages and private property.

Spork

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5742
    • Spork In The Eye
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #139 on: January 14, 2015, 10:21:08 AM »
I am not sure if it is the tags on the graph that is inaccurate or the poll questions that create your X,Y coords.  I tend to think the latter.

jopiquant

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 98
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Burnaby, BC
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #140 on: January 14, 2015, 10:21:40 AM »
Another left libertarian who thought she was left centrist (because the word libertarian makes me feel dirty).

dude

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2369
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #141 on: January 14, 2015, 10:42:27 AM »
Exactly where I thought I'd be before taking the test, and wow, in the large majority so far, which I did NOT expect!

« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 10:48:09 AM by dude »

Zee

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 25
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #142 on: January 14, 2015, 10:49:04 AM »
Economic Left/Right: 5.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.03



Beric01

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
  • Law-abiding cyclist
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #143 on: January 14, 2015, 12:46:44 PM »
I scored Right libertarian (and pretty strong too). Pretty much where I expected.

Quote
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 5.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.26



Exactly where I thought I'd be before taking the test, and wow, in the large majority so far, which I did NOT expect!

It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 12:48:37 PM by Beric01 »

Pooperman

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2880
  • Age: 34
  • Location: North Carolina
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #144 on: January 14, 2015, 01:11:49 PM »
I scored Right libertarian (and pretty strong too). Pretty much where I expected.

Quote
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 5.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.26



Exactly where I thought I'd be before taking the test, and wow, in the large majority so far, which I did NOT expect!

It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.
Left-Libertarian does not preclude a free market. Much of what makes us, those of us who are, Left-Libertarian is environmentalism. Regulations are a part of a free market, in that all regulation does it tilt the market in one way or another. The market still determines everything within those constraints (as opposed to communism in which there are directives, not regulations!)

LennStar

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3698
  • Location: Germany
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #145 on: January 14, 2015, 01:51:24 PM »
It's pretty clear from reading these forums that most people here are in that quadrant. Which always surprises me, as the concepts of FI and Mustachianism seem to me profoundly right libertarian. FI isn't really possible without a free market.
I think you make a common error here.
First, getting "rich" is easily possible in non-free-market societies.
Second, that socialism or communism necessarily means non-free-market (or more basically that they are only these 2 options, but lets put this aside)
The official mantra of most "communist" countries was to put the means of production into the hands of those who produce.
That alone could mean the "capitalist" stock company, where everyone who works in the company owns stocks - arguably the most correct avatar of this mantra.
It can also mean cooperatives - and there are a lot of them around in our capitalist free-market societies.

On the other hand a real free market would mean endless pollution and child labor.

And please be very careful if you use Marx based on "common knowledge". Marx was a philosophical analyst (a brilliant one btw), no ideologist. He was strongly influenced by Adam Smith for example, not your typical communist, right ;) The core point of Marx works was to get away from ideologies and to base the conclusions on the analysis of the real.
Nearly everything what people think they know of Marx is something someone else interpreted to his liking.


btw: I am a strong ideologist that everyone should read Wealth of Nations and at least Capital I (of course +2+3 is better ;) ) and a few reviews or a annotated version.
And of course a few of the classical philosophical works from The Old Greeks on until today, but that is dreaming. One year teaching of them would definitely more useful then a year current High School.
Yeah, thats my type of porn ;) and this http://bookshelfporn.com/



FoundPeace

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 199
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #146 on: January 14, 2015, 02:06:51 PM »
I think this test makes me out to be a bit more libertarian than I really am, but my score is:
Economic: .25, Social:-2.46

Is this why I tend to think everyone is extreme in their political opinions?


Fodder

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 217
  • Location: Ottawa, ON
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #147 on: January 14, 2015, 02:11:56 PM »
I am basically Gandhi.



Economic - -6.75
Social - -5.64

Beric01

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1156
  • Age: 33
  • Location: SF Bay Area
  • Law-abiding cyclist
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #148 on: January 14, 2015, 02:33:16 PM »
Left-Libertarian does not preclude a free market. Much of what makes us, those of us who are, Left-Libertarian is environmentalism. Regulations are a part of a free market, in that all regulation does it tilt the market in one way or another. The market still determines everything within those constraints (as opposed to communism in which there are directives, not regulations!)

Perhaps the left-right scale isn't a very good representation of an open vs. closed economic system then? My understanding was that the far right economically was a completely free market, whereas the far left would be a command economy. Under an economic system where there is no free market, FI is not possible (unless you're one of the elite), but a lot of people seem to be scoring very far to the left economically.

And if simply wanting some environmental restrictions puts one at a -6, then the test is flawed.

LucyBIT

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 99
Re: Political Leanings of Mustachians?
« Reply #149 on: January 14, 2015, 03:51:21 PM »
Economic Left/Right: -8.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.13

Theoretically right on the border of Anarcho-Communism and Anarcho-Socialism, or in other words, almost the exact opposite of Mitt Romney.

Can I join the kum-bay-ah circle?