Author Topic: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!  (Read 4314 times)

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
  • Age: 10
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
I saw it in JD Roth's post today.  He ended a sentence with the punctuation outside of the quotes.  It's a beautiful thing, and it's something I have seen a few times already here on the forums.  No one has ever explicitly agreed with me on a few points though, and I'd like to at least get a discussion going about why quotes are the way they are or how the rules could be changed.

I'll explain myself:  when a question is inserted mid-sentence, it's conventional to end it with a comma.  Consider:

"You did buy groceries," she wondered. 

Now how nebulous is that?  If we could just insert the proper punctuation so we know exactly what is being quoted, there wouldn't be any ambiguity.  Now consider if I was to incorporate that sentence into a sentence of my own.  For example if I used the example "'You did buy groceries,' she wondered," I'm now stuck with two commas, double quotes, and single quotes, and nowhere else to go.  You can't nest any further with the current system. 

I hope I've at least got someone laughing at this point.  Improvements can be made!  With a simpler system that doesn't use the freakin' commas or the single quotes, you can even embellish the above quote to become ""You did buy 'Mustachian' groceries?" she wondered."  Also, put the question mark in the quotes and don't put a freakin' comma, because it wouldn't be there in the first place.

The idea extends further to include even double punctuation (or worse, as needed).  He exclaimed "I hate your ridiculous spending with a fiery passion!".  The period ends the sentence, and the exclamation ends the quote, and everything's good.  And no freaking comma to introduce the quote, because all anyone needs is a quote to know that a quote's coming.

You may think, "Hey, it doesn't matter if it's just a word in quotes at the end of a sentence, right?".  Wrong.  If you're quoting a single-word sentence, then end it with a period, and add the period for the other sentence it's within after it.  "They just said "Leave."." deteriorates to "They just said, 'Leave,'" with the current system, and it's an absolute joke.

I'm posting just to see if anyone else abhors the counterintuitive rules they still teach kids on a daily basis.  If the internet has taught me anything, no one ever has a completely unique point of view.  So let me hear it!  Few people around here don't question the given 'rules', so I'm sure someone's got something interesting to add.

Edited:  Changed "hear" to "here". 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 09:05:23 AM by Grid »

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 23128
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2014, 05:49:38 AM »
r u 4 reelz??!11 lulz,

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3961
  • Location: France
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 05:55:54 AM »
"They just said 'Leave,' so I left," he said.

Comma is verbal pause. Writing is noting speech. Full stop not appropriate when reading out loud/speaking, and I read as if it's spoken.

"Bye!"

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3961
  • Location: France
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2014, 05:58:00 AM »
I am much more irritated by misuse of apostrophe's.

Mustachian's, would you're opinion be similar?

matchewed

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4422
  • Location: CT
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2014, 05:59:08 AM »
Their their... it'll be okay.

skunkfunk

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Oklahoma City
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2014, 06:59:45 AM »
i jst h8 l33t5p34k

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
  • Age: 10
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2014, 07:12:48 AM »
"They just said 'Leave,' so I left," he said.

Comma is verbal pause. Writing is noting speech. Full stop not appropriate when reading out loud/speaking, and I read as if it's spoken.

"Bye!"

"They just said "Leave.", so I left." he said.

The use of the comma within the quotes is the problem for me there.  You're quoting a sentence, which, in another context, would have ended in a period.  Obviously it's just a problem for me.  ;)

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
  • Age: 10
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2014, 07:13:39 AM »
r u 4 reelz??!11 lulz,

I was worried when I noticed the first reply to this post was by a certain GuitarStv...

daverobev

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3961
  • Location: France
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2014, 08:18:16 AM »
"They just said 'Leave,' so I left," he said.

Comma is verbal pause. Writing is noting speech. Full stop not appropriate when reading out loud/speaking, and I read as if it's spoken.

"Bye!"

"They just said "Leave.", so I left." he said.

The use of the comma within the quotes is the problem for me there.  You're quoting a sentence, which, in another context, would have ended in a period.  Obviously it's just a problem for me.  ;)

In English I believe it is acceptable to put the punctuation inside or outside the quotes.

"Indeed", he said, "this is no fun!"

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
  • Age: 10
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2014, 08:29:07 AM »
https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/577/03/

According to Purdue's Online Writing Lab, you're absolutely right, at least when it comes to colons/semicolons, exclamation points and question marks.  And that makes me happy, though I don't see any examples where they place commas or periods outside the quotes.  The conventions aren't as bad as as I originally thought.

milesdividendmd

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1913
  • Location: Portlandia
    • Miles Dividend MD
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2014, 08:47:07 AM »
Grid. I'm agnostic on this one. And I'm not proud of that fact at all.

But your passion for grammar is inspiring.

You have an open invitation to clean up the chernobyl like grammar of any of my blog posts.



dragoncar

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9923
  • Registered member
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2014, 09:09:47 AM »
Quote
You did buy
Quote
Mustachian
groceries?
, she wondered.

dcheesi

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1309
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2014, 12:41:43 PM »
"They just said 'Leave,' so I left," he said.

Comma is verbal pause. Writing is noting speech. Full stop not appropriate when reading out loud/speaking, and I read as if it's spoken.

"Bye!"

"They just said "Leave.", so I left." he said.

The use of the comma within the quotes is the problem for me there.  You're quoting a sentence, which, in another context, would have ended in a period.  Obviously it's just a problem for me.  ;)

In English I believe it is acceptable to put the punctuation inside or outside the quotes.

"Indeed", he said, "this is no fun!"
In English class I was taught that it should always go inside (I remember because it never really made sense to me). However, more recently I've seen it argued that this is not necessary unless the punctuation is actually part of the quotation.

I think it's just one more example of the arbitrary, ambiguous, and ever-changing rules of grammar & style that made me hate English class so much...

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
  • Age: 10
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2014, 01:22:26 PM »
Grid. I'm agnostic on this one. And I'm not proud of that fact at all.

But your passion for grammar is inspiring.

You have an open invitation to clean up the chernobyl like grammar of any of my blog posts.

Haha, well then take a side!  I took a look at a couple of your blog posts, and yeah, they could use a small bit of fixing.  Do I have the time to assist?  Not really, unfortunately.  I agree with your most recent post that says it's far easier to avoid large problems than to start organizing and chipping away at them.

milesdividendmd

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1913
  • Location: Portlandia
    • Miles Dividend MD
Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2014, 01:25:36 PM »
All right then, I'll take your side.

Just don't misinterpret the actual  grammar in my writing as a vote.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 01:48:54 PM by milesdividendmd »

marty998

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7372
  • Location: Sydney, Oz
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2014, 04:46:18 PM »
I am much more irritated by misuse of apostrophe's.

Am I the only one who saw that ironic misuse of apostrophes?

Or am I opening myself up to attacks from the grammar nazi police...hmm

deborah

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 15960
  • Age: 14
  • Location: Australia or another awesome area
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2014, 05:01:21 PM »
You are talking about American English as against Australian, British, New Zealand ... English.

I was taught differently from people in  the US because I am Australian. We are taught to put what was actually said (including any punctuation) inside the quotes, and any punctuation for what was said outside the quotes, for instance:

A: My red house burnt down yesterday!

Would be quoted as:

"My red house", he said, "burnt down yesterday!". 

Notice that the original sentence is exactly the same within the quotes, and the extra punctuation necessary for the new sentence is outside the quotes. I understand that in the US, they do it differently, jumbling up all the punctuation. Sometimes I need to re-read quotes in books because they don't make sense to me because they are US English.

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
  • Age: 10
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2014, 07:55:49 PM »
You are talking about American English as against Australian, British, New Zealand ... English.

Phew.  Good, it's just another instance of the Americans having their heads somewhere they shouldn't be.  It's nice to know someone has conventions that make some more sense. 

Sparafusile

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 335
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Indiana, USA
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2014, 08:42:57 PM »
My rule of thumb is - once you know the rules you're free to ignore them. The hard part, then, is learning the rules. The result is that nobody follows the rules. So it is.

Btw, I have a degree in English (and Computer Science). Hence my signature.

Nords

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3421
  • Age: 63
  • Location: Oahu
    • Military Retirement & Financial Independence blog
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2014, 08:51:54 PM »
I'm just happy that the English language is evolving instead of fossilized...

Grid

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 463
  • Age: 10
  • I kept dreaming of a world I thought I'd never see
Re: Please tell me someone else hates English quoting conventions!
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2014, 08:54:09 PM »
My rule of thumb is - once you know the rules you're free to ignore them. The hard part, then, is learning the rules. The result is that nobody follows the rules. So it is.

Btw, I have a degree in English (and Computer Science). Hence my signature.

Hello fellow Hoosier with a degree in Computer Science!  *Waves*  My undergrad was in Biology, but I'll have a CS Master's soon.