Pig Butchering Scam

[Luke Warm]

A friend of ours got caught up in a Pig Butchering Scam. I thought he was a guy that had a good BS detector so I was surprised when I heard he got sucked in. Lost his 401K, house and wife in the scam. Be careful out there.
I wonder what other scams are out there that aren't on my radar?

[bacchi]

juror summons
warrants
working on a secret mission with the feds

[ChpBstrd]

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Here are some resources.

https://www.finra.org/investors/protect-your-money
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/what-are-some-common-types-of-scams-en-2092/

In the grand scheme of things, we are all members of what will someday be known as the "gullible generation" because we tend to believe whatever the algorithms direct toward our phones. What's really scary is how many people get healthcare information from social media influencers. One recent headline: "33% of Gen Zers Trust TikTok More Than Doctors".

Also, most dietary supplements are fake, adulterated, dangerous, or unnecessary if not recommended by a doctor. Americans spent $50B on supplements in 2021, despite studies showing no clear benefit in most cases. So this is sorta like a scam operating in plain sight. Unless you're pregnant and talking folic acid or healing a broken bone with D3, supplements are probably the scam draining your wallet.

So maybe step one for most people who want to avoid getting scammed is to talk to your doctor instead of searching Youtube for a content creator with affiliate links to supplements.

Social media is also generally scammy when it comes to investments. Reddit and YT are notoriously full of pump-and-dump scams. The scammers go viral and overwhelm any responsible content.

Basically these information channels are only good for entertainment, and even there is a danger.

[iris lily]

I watch every “ Catfished” video the Catfished team (David and Bree and etc) puts out. But boy, does the egomania and greed of the victims get old.

We can all get scammed for money,  but not in the same way, and not at the same level.

For instance, I consider myself immune to a romance scam. However, I could be persuaded to have an online friend who makes me laugh on the regular. That laughter thing was an important component of me choosing past boyfriends and current husband. My last beloved dog was a laugh -a-day comedian.

I can now envision an AI world where the AI.bot, after following me around all over the internet for some weeks, “gets” my sense of humor and serves it up to me daily in witty repartee. I think it is possible today and certainly in the future. And yeah, I might pay for that in a sly way knowing it is a fake scam but enjoying it anyway.

[iris lily]

juror summons
warrants
working on a secret mission with the feds

*good looking famous person  just wants a nice honest man or woman  for romance because  their famous lifestyle friends are superficial; their married partner has frozen their bank account, send famous and rich person money (Jennifer Anniston, Johnny Depp, even Zuc himself can’t get hands on his billions because Priscilla has locked his bank account!)

*. Engineer on oil rig/sand country army contract/building site in Europe needs money for equipment to finish job so that he can come home to his beloved 83 year old girlfriend/victim

*Military General needs a letter written to his superior officer by 78 year old online girlfriend to release him from active duty, also he needs $37,000 to get “ home.”

And etc…

[Just Joe]

A friend was telling DW and I about another someone they are related to who is heavily involved in what I would describe as "obsolete currencies".

As I understand it: "Buy all this foreign currency. In a few months it is predicted to rise. Then sell it. Convert to USD."

Person in question has spent $5K+ on this and can't find a way to convert it back to USD now.

I don't have enough facts to understand the whole problem. They are on a fixed income. They still have a roof over their heads but their savings are gone. 

The investor person asked our friend for more money to invest. B/c more money will fix the problem.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/081314/iraqi-dinar-investment-wise-investment.asp

Edited b/c typos, always typos...

[iris lily]

My favorite scams are the ones visited upon female victims, women who are helpful in nature and who are relatively competent in their lives, usually 45 to 65 years old*  The pig butcher scammer sets up a fake bank account online and asks the victim to help him move money in and out of his bank account because he (makes up some reason why he does not have access to it.)

The victim “sees” how much money is in that fake bank account, always millions.

The pig butcher eventually starts asking her for “loans” that she just KNOWS he will pay back because ya, know, he is good for it with those millions. He needs the loans to close down his business.

He needs to complete his business transactions so that he can fly home to be with her.

Scammer nearly always uses photos of a man 3x as attractive as the woman.

*teachers, real estate agents, administrative assistants, etc.people who  are in some way in helping professions seem vulnerable to this particular fake-bank account scam.

[Villanelle]

My parents live in a senior community.  The neighbor, in her 80s, has been scammed several times.  There was one where they called because she supposedly had a virus on her computer and they wanted to "help" her, though she mentioned that one to my dad and he eventually convinced her it was at least worth being cautious about, though she refused to believe it could be a scam because he was "so nice".  he granddaughter finally convinced her not to go along.  But at least 2 other times, she wasn't so lucky.  One had something to do with Paypal, but I'm not sure of the details.  She ended up having to close several bank accounts to get new numbers though, and I'm sure she lost a fair amount.

I've drilled into my mom that she should basically never click on links in emails, and that if anyone calls or email about anything, she needs to hang up and call back on a number she knows to be valid, not one they gave her.  Those 2 things should keep her fairly safe.  I don't worry quite so muh about my dad, but if he weren't around, she might get into trouble.  Thankfully, she mindful of scams and that makes her less naive and more skeptical, which is a very good thing.

[partgypsy]

juror summons
warrants
working on a secret mission with the feds

*good looking famous person  just wants a nice honest man or woman  for romance because  their famous lifestyle friends are superficial; their married partner has frozen their bank account, send famous and rich person money (Jennifer Anniston, Johnny Depp, even Zuc himself can’t get hands on his billions because Priscilla has locked his bank account!)

*. Engineer on oil rig/sand country army contract/building site in Europe needs money for equipment to finish job so that he can come home to his beloved 83 year old girlfriend/victim

*Military General needs a letter written to his superior officer by 78 year old online girlfriend to release him from active duty, also he needs $37,000 to get “ home.”

And etc…

i follow Jordan Kleppper, and "he" messaged me back and started talking to me! He's just a regular dude who wants to make friends, you know? I was first super excited. But even with wanting it to be true it was quickly obvious that it was not him, so I never stayed to find the angle.  Maybe next time they won't pick someone who is known for deadpan humor and extremely verbally quick on his feet.

[twinstudy]

Sorry to hear about your friend.

Here are some resources.

https://www.finra.org/investors/protect-your-money
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/what-are-some-common-types-of-scams-en-2092/

In the grand scheme of things, we are all members of what will someday be known as the "gullible generation" because we tend to believe whatever the algorithms direct toward our phones. What's really scary is how many people get healthcare information from social media influencers. One recent headline: "33% of Gen Zers Trust TikTok More Than Doctors".

Also, most dietary supplements are fake, adulterated, dangerous, or unnecessary if not recommended by a doctor. Americans spent $50B on supplements in 2021, despite studies showing no clear benefit in most cases. So this is sorta like a scam operating in plain sight. Unless you're pregnant and talking folic acid or healing a broken bone with D3, supplements are probably the scam draining your wallet.

So maybe step one for most people who want to avoid getting scammed is to talk to your doctor instead of searching Youtube for a content creator with affiliate links to supplements.

Social media is also generally scammy when it comes to investments. Reddit and YT are notoriously full of pump-and-dump scams. The scammers go viral and overwhelm any responsible content.

Basically these information channels are only good for entertainment, and even there is a danger.

None of this bothers me. If you have any IQ at all it's extremely easy to tell truth from fiction - most scams, in fact, are hard wired to strain credulity so as to only appeal to more gullible people - this saves the scammer from wasting effort on bad prospects.

If people want to let their own cognitive biases and wishful thinking ruin their lives, they're free to.

[Dollar Slice]

i follow Jordan Kleppper, and "he" messaged me back and started talking to me! He's just a regular dude who wants to make friends, you know? I was first super excited. But even with wanting it to be true it was quickly obvious that it was not him, so I never stayed to find the angle.  Maybe next time they won't pick someone who is known for deadpan humor and extremely verbally quick on his feet.

This is a super common one... I am IRL acquainted with a few musicians big enough to have a band page with five or six figures worth of fans - not like Taylor Swift or something but internationally-touring level. And I have gotten SO MANY fake messages from "them", which is both funny and confusing in the moment since it is so obvious when you know them and they send you a "let's get to know each other/let's be friends" type message. I just reported another one today. The smarter ones use pseudonyms for their personal accounts so their actual friends/family don't have to waste any brainpower on scams. If they get a message from *real name* they know it's a scam.

[Dollar Slice]

None of this bothers me. If you have any IQ at all it's extremely easy to tell truth from fiction - most scams, in fact, are hard wired to strain credulity so as to only appeal to more gullible people - this saves the scammer from wasting effort on bad prospects.

If people want to let their own cognitive biases and wishful thinking ruin their lives, they're free to.

Are we victim-blaming now?

My cousin's ex had a brain injury and lost his life savings to a pig butcher scam shortly afterwards (before his family worked out any kind of legal situation like POA - he is an immigrant and they were 5000 miles away). He worked in finance before the brain injury forced him into disability after multiple brain surgeries resulted in a cognitive deficit. It was a ton of money. They were counting on it to pay for his ongoing care.

Being born stupid, or acquiring stupidity through injury or illness or age, is not a crime. Committing crimes is a crime.

[Kris]

None of this bothers me. If you have any IQ at all it's extremely easy to tell truth from fiction - most scams, in fact, are hard wired to strain credulity so as to only appeal to more gullible people - this saves the scammer from wasting effort on bad prospects.

If people want to let their own cognitive biases and wishful thinking ruin their lives, they're free to.

Are we victim-blaming now?

My cousin's ex had a brain injury and lost his life savings to a pig butcher scam shortly afterwards (before his family worked out any kind of legal situation like POA - he is an immigrant and they were 5000 miles away). He worked in finance before the brain injury forced him into disability after multiple brain surgeries resulted in a cognitive deficit. It was a ton of money. They were counting on it to pay for his ongoing care.

Being born stupid, or acquiring stupidity through injury or illness or age, is not a crime. Committing crimes is a crime.

Exactly. Twinstudy, if you think unintelligent people are lesser humans than you, do you at least have some sympathy for older people who have lost some cognitive ability? Because those people are particular targets for scammers.

[twinstudy]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

[sonofsven]

My mom (83) and my partner's mom (81) both fell for scams recently, thankfully they didn't lose much (partner's mom) or anything (my mom).
The issue is that they trust the phone. If someone calls them "from the bank", they implicitly trust them, because in their life experience, that is how things were done.
Of course they know to be careful "on the computer!", but the phone is different for them. Whereas for most of us, any phone call is completely suspect.

[Louise]

My mom (83) and my partner's mom (81) both fell for scams recently, thankfully they didn't lose much (partner's mom) or anything (my mom).
The issue is that they trust the phone. If someone calls them "from the bank", they implicitly trust them, because in their life experience, that is how things were done.
Of course they know to be careful "on the computer!", but the phone is different for them. Whereas for most of us, any phone call is completely suspect.

It wasn't even that long ago when banks called you about fraud. I got a call from my bank about someone using my credit card in Brazil. This was maybe 8-10 years ago.

[blue_green_sparks]

I read an article about how the fear-driven MAGAs really jump on those gold coins at almost 2X the spot price. I love how Faux News just screws them over. Reminds me of those preachers calling the flock to their COVID churches. Feel the Love!

[GuitarStv]

I once thought I had a pretty good bullshit detector, but fell for a well designed fake e-commerce website.  I was looking for a particular jacket by a big brand and googling for the best price.  Found three different places online where it was being sold on discount for about the same price.  Two of the websites (later I realize real websites) didn't have my size in stock, but the fake one did.  I got to all of them through the same google searches.  The fake website looked pretty legit and carried a variety of similar sporting equipment - some at full retail and some at sale prices.  It had hundreds of pages of goods with high res pictures and description taken from the manufacturers websites, a listed customer support number that connected to an automatic messaging system if you called it (more on that later), no spelling mistakes, no weird looking URL, https encoding, and a whois lookup gave the name of a holding company registered in the US.  There wasn't anything obvious that there was a problem to me.

So I put in my order - name, address, credit card information, CVV and all.  The confirmation email that I got looked weird though, and listed a different company than the one I was ordering from as the retailer, which triggered some alarm bells.  In the confirmation email was a 'tracking number' that went to a mail deliverer that I had never heard of.  When I clicked on it, it had my name, address, and order.  The tracking number was part of the URL at the top of the browser though, so I tried changing the number down by one.  And got someone else's name, address, and order.  Then down by two.  And the same thing happened.  That really seemed wrong to me.  So this is when I tried contacting the phone number listed and found out that it sent you to an automatic messaging system that just sent you around and around in loops where you couldn't talk to any real person.  Then as a hail mary I contacted the manufacturer of the jacket and sent them links to the website and they confirmed that they didn't have business dealings with the retailer - but also said they couldn't be sure it was fraud as the merchandise could have been purchased and then resold to them.  Sending an email to the provided email address on the website immediately bounced you back a 'we're considering your email and will get back to you in a few days later boiler plate thing'.

Next step was contacting our bank, explaining that I thought the charges were fraudulent, and asking that they be cancelled.  The bank didn't believe me that it was a scam website.  This whole thing was a bit of a weird procedure as the bank didn't seem at all concerned about the fraud and was in no hurry to prevent more fake charges from being made.  Eventually, after explaining everything that went on they agreed to cancel my credit cards and said I could dispute the charge from the fake website when they were posted on my bill.  (Seemed to me that it would make more sense to cancel them before they went through, but who am I to tell a bank how to run it's business?)  I reported the fake store website and the fake tracking website (which gave daily tracking updates even after my credit card had been cancelled) to Canada's online fraud prevention unit and it disappeared several months later so I'm hoping that they were caught or at least forced to set up shop somewhere else.

Eventually I did get everything sorted out without losing money . . . but I've learned that while the vast majority of scams are stupidly easy to spot, some aren't.  It just takes a little carelessness, or a scam that preys upon your particular weakness.  Don't let those Nigerian princes lull you into a sense of overconfidence.  :P

[Louise]

I'm curious how it goes so far. I assume both spouses are on the deed, so how was the house lost? A HELOC maybe?

I like to think I'm smart enough to be immune from this, but so much of life is online, it's hard to say. Especially as things get more sophisticated and fake.

[GuitarStv]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

[Dollar Slice]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

I'm going to go with fallible ("capable of making a mistake" - Mirriam Webster). Not being infallible ("incapable of error") means being victimized by criminals is your own fault, apparently.

[GuitarStv]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

I'm going to go with fallible ("capable of making a mistake" - Mirriam Webster). Not being infallible ("incapable of error") means being victimized by criminals is your own fault, apparently.

What was the fallacy made though?  I think that I was following all the rules for online scams (the ones I know at least).

[twinstudy]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

Sounds like you did absolutely everything right. Note the only thing you stood to lose here was a credit card purchase which would have been covered by your card issuer anyway - so yes you got scammed, but not in the sense of most 'bank scams' which are the subject of this thread.

[GuitarStv]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

Sounds like you did absolutely everything right. Note the only thing you stood to lose here was a credit card purchase which would have been covered by your card issuer anyway - so yes you got scammed, but not in the sense of most 'bank scams' which are the subject of this thread.

That's why I've knocked back my certainty about getting scammed several notches.  A lot of the scammers out there are lazy and preying on easy to spot weaknesses.  But some are pretty smart, and some of the scams are getting much more sophisticated.

FWIW - it was my credit card information that they were after, not the purchase.  Before the bank deigned to cancel my card there were several fraudulent charges made against it.  And honestly, if I hadn't happened to notice the business name mismatch on the confirmation email I wouldn't have known anything was wrong for probably a couple weeks.

I get that handing over bank information is a different thing . . . but I really never would have thought I'd fall for an online merchant scam.

[Dollar Slice]

What was the fallacy made though?  I think that I was following all the rules for online scams (the ones I know at least).

You bought from a scam website. Oops, your bad. That was a mistake. No one said it had to be an obvious mistake.

My credit card got jacked after going to a restaurant and the chef got pissed off because I agreed to send my meal back to the kitchen for being wildly undercooked. I guess I misjudged that human interaction and should have feared the staff more. Oops, my bad.

Or we could just blame the criminals, I guess. :-)

[Morning Glory]

There's property registration scams that require no error on the part of the rightful owner. The thieves simply steal your identity and take a loan against your house or get the title transferred to them l. The victim doesn't find out until it's in foreclosure or has already been sold to someone else.
https://shws.law/protection-from-deed-fraud/


There's also a ton of fake apartment listings, but those are usually avoidable "I'm sorry I'm out of state right now but just send me money to hold it and I'll show it when I get back" My niece almost fell for one of those.

[bacchi]

There's property registration scams that require no error on the part of the rightful owner. The thieves simply steal your identity and take a loan against your house or get the title transferred to them l. The victim doesn't find out until it's in foreclosure or has already been sold to someone else.
https://shws.law/protection-from-deed-fraud/

There's also a ton of fake apartment listings, but those are usually avoidable "I'm sorry I'm out of state right now but just send me money to hold it and I'll show it when I get back"

Graceland, of Elvis fame, almost made it to auction from some kind of deed fraud scam.

There are also title scams where closing money is wired to the wrong account.

[Villanelle]

There's property registration scams that require no error on the part of the rightful owner. The thieves simply steal your identity and take a loan against your house or get the title transferred to them l. The victim doesn't find out until it's in foreclosure or has already been sold to someone else.
https://shws.law/protection-from-deed-fraud/

There's also a ton of fake apartment listings, but those are usually avoidable "I'm sorry I'm out of state right now but just send me money to hold it and I'll show it when I get back"

Graceland, of Elvis fame, almost made it to auction from some kind of deed fraud scam.

There are also title scams where closing money is wired to the wrong account.

We are buying a house right now and both our realtor and mortgage broker warned us very clearly about this.  the RE agent said that in some cases, the scammers know the exact amount to be wired (and maybe even the property address).  As she explained it, I thought, "hmm... I may have fallen for this one." 

If I'd gotten an email from Name Title (IOW, the name of the actual title company I know we are using), saying, "the $xxx deposit on 123 Main street is due" (with the amount and address being correct, as well as the date) and telling me to wire it (as expected) to account 1234567, I could see doing so without giving it another thought.

Our agent made it clear that we should call the title company (not using a phone number from an email, of course) to confirm any account number, so we did and it worked. 

But with that level of detail, I could see how it would be very easy to fall for that, and unlike Twinstudy wants to believe, there would have been no greed or wishful thinking at play, and according to Mensa, I do have "some IQ". 

[Samuel]

I wasn't familiar with the term "Pig Butchering" in this context so I pulled up Wikipedia and this was in the first paragraph:

"In October 2023, 12% of Americans using dating apps had been victims, up from 5% in 2018."

That's a startlingly high number to me, one that presumably doesn't include a whole lot of 70 and 80 year olds since it's just dating apps.

[bacchi]

There's property registration scams that require no error on the part of the rightful owner. The thieves simply steal your identity and take a loan against your house or get the title transferred to them l. The victim doesn't find out until it's in foreclosure or has already been sold to someone else.
https://shws.law/protection-from-deed-fraud/

There's also a ton of fake apartment listings, but those are usually avoidable "I'm sorry I'm out of state right now but just send me money to hold it and I'll show it when I get back"

Graceland, of Elvis fame, almost made it to auction from some kind of deed fraud scam.

There are also title scams where closing money is wired to the wrong account.

We are buying a house right now and both our realtor and mortgage broker warned us very clearly about this.  the RE agent said that in some cases, the scammers know the exact amount to be wired (and maybe even the property address).  As she explained it, I thought, "hmm... I may have fallen for this one." 

This indicates an insider job, right? Someone at the title company, a courier service, the county, wherever, is leaking information. I'm surprised it continues.

If I'd gotten an email from Name Title (IOW, the name of the actual title company I know we are using), saying, "the $xxx deposit on 123 Main street is due" (with the amount and address being correct, as well as the date) and telling me to wire it (as expected) to account 1234567, I could see doing so without giving it another thought.

Our agent made it clear that we should call the title company (not using a phone number from an email, of course) to confirm any account number, so we did and it worked.

But with that level of detail, I could see how it would be very easy to fall for that, and unlike Twinstudy wants to believe, there would have been no greed or wishful thinking at play, and according to Mensa, I do have "some IQ".

Yep. Scams that mimic legitimate activities can fool even the best of us. Following through like Guitarstv did just isn't really realistic for people who have less time on their hands or who aren't as technically competent.

[ChpBstrd]

My mom (83) and my partner's mom (81) both fell for scams recently, thankfully they didn't lose much (partner's mom) or anything (my mom).
The issue is that they trust the phone. If someone calls them "from the bank", they implicitly trust them, because in their life experience, that is how things were done.
Of course they know to be careful "on the computer!", but the phone is different for them. Whereas for most of us, any phone call is completely suspect.

It wasn't even that long ago when banks called you about fraud. I got a call from my bank about someone using my credit card in Brazil. This was maybe 8-10 years ago.

For anyone younger than 50, the internet is implicitly trusted, because in their life experience, that is how things were done*. Thus we tend to believe what websites and social media influencers tell us about money, healthcare, and even how to stay safe. The downsides of this trust are becoming apparent as we keep falling for scams and pump/dump schemes and crypto bullshit. However it's a blind spot so we cannot see how our own trust is setting us up for failure, especially as we reach old age.

I still think each generation trusts the media format they grew up with (newspapers, talk radio, TV, the internet...) and the subsequent generation distrusts the old format but blindly trusts the new format. Let's hope the pandemic generation wises up to the internet. So far, signs are not promising. Perhaps the next thing has to come along before we can lose trust in the earlier format. Otherwise we'd be left with nothing to trust, which brings the uncomfortable sensations of epistemic nihilism.

*I've only experienced one exception. I bank at a local micro bank with only 6-7 branches in one city. They actually called me a few years ago to tell me about a suspicious charge, but asked me to log in as usual and message them from within their own website if it was fraud. Sure enough it was, and so I reported it through their website. It was kinda a surreal experience for a child of the internet like me, but the phone method got things done quickly and efficiently. The way they did it involved no loss of security because they did not give me the link/address, have me read anything to them over the phone, or tell me to email them.

[Kris]

My mom (83) and my partner's mom (81) both fell for scams recently, thankfully they didn't lose much (partner's mom) or anything (my mom).
The issue is that they trust the phone. If someone calls them "from the bank", they implicitly trust them, because in their life experience, that is how things were done.
Of course they know to be careful "on the computer!", but the phone is different for them. Whereas for most of us, any phone call is completely suspect.

It wasn't even that long ago when banks called you about fraud. I got a call from my bank about someone using my credit card in Brazil. This was maybe 8-10 years ago.

My credit union still does this for even *potential* fraud. Though these days their first contact is a text. I just got one last week. They're very proactive about any transaction that looks at all unusual.

[GuitarStv]

I wasn't familiar with the term "Pig Butchering" in this context so I pulled up Wikipedia and this was in the first paragraph:

"In October 2023, 12% of Americans using dating apps had been victims, up from 5% in 2018."

That's a startlingly high number to me, one that presumably doesn't include a whole lot of 70 and 80 year olds since it's just dating apps.

When you've been taken in by a scam you feel like an idiot.  People tend to be quite hesitant to broadcast things that make them look and feel stupid.  You might not hear much about these scams, but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were actually higher than reported.

[ChpBstrd]

I wasn't familiar with the term "Pig Butchering" in this context so I pulled up Wikipedia and this was in the first paragraph:

"In October 2023, 12% of Americans using dating apps had been victims, up from 5% in 2018."

That's a startlingly high number to me, one that presumably doesn't include a whole lot of 70 and 80 year olds since it's just dating apps.

When you've been taken in by a scam you feel like an idiot.  People tend to be quite hesitant to broadcast things that make them look and feel stupid.  You might not hear much about these scams, but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were actually higher than reported.

Just wait until AI takes over, and makes today's pig butchering and spearphishing attempts look like Nigerian prince mass-emails.

The AI will get to know you and your friends, measure your and their characteristics across hundreds of variables, merge data about you from hundreds of sources, create a psychological profile, and calculate the exact scam that you'll fall for with the same effectiveness as YouTube, Facebook, or TikTok can guess the next video their users will engage in. Instead of recycling a handful of scams we can name, the AI will come up with a custom approach to fit the vulnerabilities of your particular brain, and it might not look like anything you've seen or imagined before.

To say we won't all get scammed is like saying you've never been sucked into a loop of algorithmically-selected content. Imagine if it's not just your child's voice and video image on the phone asking for a money transfer, but they also know all your information, can respond with the same intonation and cadence as the real person, and know the answer to any question you might ask. The stuff destroying people today is primitive compared to what's coming.

If the internet was developed to facilitate porn, AI will be developed to facilitate scams. Think about that if you are worried about the machines eventually turning on us. They will be built to harm people in the first place.

[sonofsven]

The closest (so far) I've come to getting scammed was when calling a bank.
I called the bank's real number, not from a link or email, I dialed the numbers, and since I could see them in my phone, I know they were the right numbers.
So I went through the motions with the customer service rep, and when we were done, he said that the bank was having an anniversary special and my call was randomly chosen as the winner of a small gift certificate, maybe $50? Something like that.
Ok, not too crazy, small credit unions/banks often have special offers, I churn bank accounts so this didn't seem too far fetched.
He asked for my address, which I gave, then said that the bank was required to send the check to me via a certain carrier that I would have to pay a nominal fee for (under $5.00)
Now I knew it was a scam, so I laughed and said "fat fucking chance I'm giving you my card info for that!", or, at least, something maybe not as quick as that, and hung up.
I immediately checked the phone number on the bank website and called it again, and got a completely different customer service interaction.
They were very interested in what had happened, assuring me that they had no  such promotion, and had their fraud department contact me and give them all the details as well.

[spartana]

i follow Jordan Kleppper, and "he" messaged me back and started talking to me! He's just a regular dude who wants to make friends, you know? I was first super excited. But even with wanting it to be true it was quickly obvious that it was not him, so I never stayed to find the angle.  Maybe next time they won't pick someone who is known for deadpan humor and extremely verbally quick on his feet.

This is a super common one... I am IRL acquainted with a few musicians big enough to have a band page with five or six figures worth of fans - not like Taylor Swift or something but internationally-touring level. And I have gotten SO MANY fake messages from "them", which is both funny and confusing in the moment since it is so obvious when you know them and they send you a "let's get to know each other/let's be friends" type message. I just reported another one today. The smarter ones use pseudonyms for their personal accounts so their actual friends/family don't have to waste any brainpower on scams. If they get a message from *real name* they know it's a scam.

There was a thread here not too long ago where a forum member said they were contacted by Dear Leader MMM himself and had several financial discussions before they realized it was a scammer. Good reason to be careful with any info you put out online.

[spartana]

My mom (83) and my partner's mom (81) both fell for scams recently, thankfully they didn't lose much (partner's mom) or anything (my mom).
The issue is that they trust the phone. If someone calls them "from the bank", they implicitly trust them, because in their life experience, that is how things were done.
Of course they know to be careful "on the computer!", but the phone is different for them. Whereas for most of us, any phone call is completely suspect.

And anything via the mail was OK too. I don't think it is due to any kind of cognitive decline with older people but more of a generational thing. If you're in your 80s you've likely done things via phone (landline) or postal mail all your life, even as a young person, and it's always been the safe way to handle things. I imagine those people who are now in their 80s had parents (now 100 plus) who, even when young,  insisted on doing everything in person rather then trust the person on the phone or in a letter.

Just saw that @ChpBstrd said this much better

[Just Joe]

My mom (83) and my partner's mom (81) both fell for scams recently, thankfully they didn't lose much (partner's mom) or anything (my mom).
The issue is that they trust the phone. If someone calls them "from the bank", they implicitly trust them, because in their life experience, that is how things were done.
Of course they know to be careful "on the computer!", but the phone is different for them. Whereas for most of us, any phone call is completely suspect.

It wasn't even that long ago when banks called you about fraud. I got a call from my bank about someone using my credit card in Brazil. This was maybe 8-10 years ago.

My credit union still does this for even *potential* fraud. Though these days their first contact is a text. I just got one last week. They're very proactive about any transaction that looks at all unusual.

Same!

[spartana]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

I'm going to go with fallible ("capable of making a mistake" - Mirriam Webster). Not being infallible ("incapable of error") means being victimized by criminals is your own fault, apparently.

What was the fallacy made though?  I think that I was following all the rules for online scams (the ones I know at least).

Get on your bike. Ride to a brick and mortar store. Buy the jacket. With cash. The end. Not scam-able. Otherwise nothing you can do but hope for the best.

[Just Joe]

If the internet was developed to facilitate porn, AI will be developed to facilitate scams. Think about that if you are worried about the machines eventually turning on us. They will be built to harm people in the first place.

Years ago when my grandmother was still alive she received a phone call where the other person was probing for info. Once she gave them my first name "Joe - is that you?" they tried to pump her for money under the guise that I was stranded somewhere and needed some cash from her credit card to get home. Of course why wouldn't I call my wife or my parents?

Fortunately she hung up on them and despite their efforts to call back, she ignored them calling me instead.

We setup a stupid code word that I always used when I called her to chat on the phone. Something dumb and out of context like "Did you bake the turkey yet?"

But to your point, yes AI will scam millions of people. Anything worded the right way, or repeated often enough is plenty to con some people out of everything. Politics, religion, get rich scams, etc.

Maybe 6-8 years ago some elderly friends of mine were having computer trouble. They were clicking on things that they shouldn't have. Their computers were being infected by viruses, losing control of their CC info, etc. They asked me to help and Linux was the answer. To this day they'll call me up laughing to tell me that the "Microsoft Help Line" called again to tell them their Windows computer has viruses again. Never a problem with security anymore though they've had operator problems where they somehow manage to disable their HP printer somehow and can't print. A quick visit for a beer, all the gossip and I can fix it up.

[GuitarStv]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

I'm going to go with fallible ("capable of making a mistake" - Mirriam Webster). Not being infallible ("incapable of error") means being victimized by criminals is your own fault, apparently.

What was the fallacy made though?  I think that I was following all the rules for online scams (the ones I know at least).

Get on your bike. Ride to a brick and mortar store. Buy the jacket. With cash. The end. Not scam-able. Otherwise nothing you can do but hope for the best.

You would think so, but we've had problems with credit card skimmers in our neighbourhood.  :P

[spartana]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

I'm going to go with fallible ("capable of making a mistake" - Mirriam Webster). Not being infallible ("incapable of error") means being victimized by criminals is your ownbette apparently.

What was the fallacy made though?  I think that I was following all the rules for online scams (the ones I know at least).

Get on your bike. Ride to a brick and mortar store. Buy the jacket. With cash. The end. Not scam-able. Otherwise nothing you can do but hope for the best.

You would think so, but we've had problems with credit card skimmers in our neighbourhood.  :P

Cash!! Remember cash anyone? No CC points though but I often use cash myself. And, not owning a computer etc or having private home WiFi, I don't trust using my phone for online shopping so do it rarely.

[GuitarStv]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

I'm going to go with fallible ("capable of making a mistake" - Mirriam Webster). Not being infallible ("incapable of error") means being victimized by criminals is your ownbette apparently.

What was the fallacy made though?  I think that I was following all the rules for online scams (the ones I know at least).

Get on your bike. Ride to a brick and mortar store. Buy the jacket. With cash. The end. Not scam-able. Otherwise nothing you can do but hope for the best.

You would think so, but we've had problems with credit card skimmers in our neighbourhood.  :P

Cash!! Remember cash anyone? No CC points though but I often use cash myself. And, not owning a computer etc or having private home WiFi, I don't trust using my phone for online shopping so do it rarely.

The only person I know who regularly deals in cash also deals drugs.

[Villanelle]

If the internet was developed to facilitate porn, AI will be developed to facilitate scams. Think about that if you are worried about the machines eventually turning on us. They will be built to harm people in the first place.

Years ago when my grandmother was still alive she received a phone call where the other person was probing for info. Once she gave them my first name "Joe - is that you?" they tried to pump her for money under the guise that I was stranded somewhere and needed some cash from her credit card to get home. Of course why wouldn't I call my wife or my parents?

Fortunately she hung up on them and despite their efforts to call back, she ignored them calling me instead.

We setup a stupid code word that I always used when I called her to chat on the phone. Something dumb and out of context like "Did you bake the turkey yet?"

But to your point, yes AI will scam millions of people. Anything worded the right way, or repeated often enough is plenty to con some people out of everything. Politics, religion, get rich scams, etc.

Maybe 6-8 years ago some elderly friends of mine were having computer trouble. They were clicking on things that they shouldn't have. Their computers were being infected by viruses, losing control of their CC info, etc. They asked me to help and Linux was the answer. To this day they'll call me up laughing to tell me that the "Microsoft Help Line" called again to tell them their Windows computer has viruses again. Never a problem with security anymore though they've had operator problems where they somehow manage to disable their HP printer somehow and can't print. A quick visit for a beer, all the gossip and I can fix it up.

My mom, a senior, said she frequently gets calls that start with "Hi Grandma".  Since she has no grandchildren, she doesn't need to be very skeptical or savvy to figure out this is a scam.  She responds with a vigorous "go to hell!", which I found pretty amusing. 

[sonofsven]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

I'm going to go with fallible ("capable of making a mistake" - Mirriam Webster). Not being infallible ("incapable of error") means being victimized by criminals is your own fault, apparently.

What was the fallacy made though?  I think that I was following all the rules for online scams (the ones I know at least).

Get on your bike. Ride to a brick and mortar store. Buy the jacket. With cash. The end. Not scam-able. Otherwise nothing you can do but hope for the best.

Get on your penny farthing bicycle. Ride to a fabric shop. Buy fabric, needle, and thread with proceeds from pig butchering. Go home and sit on your mattress on the floor and sew your jacket.

[spartana]

I never said anything about lesser humans: don't put words in my mouth.

Sure, you can use edge cases of cognitively impaired people or people with a brain injury that impairs executive function, and those people need protection (that's what powers of attorney are for), but that doesn't go to the 90% of scam victims who are simply fallible and/or greedy.

So am I cognitively impaired, with brain injury, fallible, or greedy?  :P

I'm going to go with fallible ("capable of making a mistake" - Mirriam Webster). Not being infallible ("incapable of error") means being victimized by criminals is your ownbette apparently.

What was the fallacy made though?  I think that I was following all the rules for online scams (the ones I know at least).

Get on your bike. Ride to a brick and mortar store. Buy the jacket. With cash. The end. Not scam-able. Otherwise nothing you can do but hope for the best.

You would think so, but we've had problems with credit card skimmers in our neighbourhood.  :P

Cash!! Remember cash anyone? No CC points though but I often use cash myself. And, not owning a computer etc or having private home WiFi, I don't trust using my phone for online shopping so do it rarely.

The only person I know who regularly deals in cash also deals drugs.

Your point? There's more then one way to get to  FI :-). Yesterday I rode my bike down to my credit union to drop off yet another fat wad of hundreds ($15k in all deposited
over 2 days) wrapped in foil from the cash-stash for a used car I never bought. This was the second time I've done that and the teller (a real live person!) gave me some serious side eye. Plus I just sold my house and had just made a pretty large deposit to the same account so was looking like a richy rich drug dealer. Now I'll likely be scammed by someone. Maybe my ultra rich Nigerian Prince .')

[Just Joe]

Heard from a friend of a friend that I know tonight.

Retired fellow wanted to buy a new "big boy toy" and sent $25K to someone in another state who promised the toy was sent by truck to this guy's house. Driver called each day with a vague update about when he would deliver.

And then after a few days the seller called and said that they were actually just consignment sellers and the original owner of said toy wasn't happy with the amount the toy was sold for. They needed $5K more.

Friend said no. And now - no "toy" and no money. They called the police department in that town and they informed him that the vendor in question was real but they closed 5 years ago.

Friend that I know recommended that the victim call the FBI at once. Victim is dragging their feet about it a little.

[spartana]

Heard from a friend of a friend that I know tonight.

Retired fellow wanted to buy a new "big boy toy" and sent $25K to someone in another state who promised the toy was sent by truck to this guy's house. Driver called each day with a vague update about when he would deliver.

And then after a few days the seller called and said that they were actually just consignment sellers and the original owner of said toy wasn't happy with the amount the toy was sold for. They needed $5K more.

Friend said no. And now - no "toy" and no money. They called the police department in that town and they informed him that the vendor in question was real but they closed 5 years ago.

Friend that I know recommended that the victim call the FBI at once. Victim is dragging their feet about it a little.

Scary! Is it common for people to buy big ticket items from a private party online and send them money sight unseen? I know it's common if you go thru a reputable company but otherwise it seems like sending money to some random craigslist ad. I know that even when looking at cars, most online dealers seem legit but many private party ads don't.

[Luke Warm]

I wasn't familiar with the term "Pig Butchering" in this context so I pulled up Wikipedia and this was in the first paragraph:

"In October 2023, 12% of Americans using dating apps had been victims, up from 5% in 2018."

That's a startlingly high number to me, one that presumably doesn't include a whole lot of 70 and 80 year olds since it's just dating apps.

When you've been taken in by a scam you feel like an idiot.  People tend to be quite hesitant to broadcast things that make them look and feel stupid.  You might not hear much about these scams, but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers were actually higher than reported.

Just wait until AI takes over, and makes today's pig butchering and spearphishing attempts look like Nigerian prince mass-emails.

The AI will get to know you and your friends, measure your and their characteristics across hundreds of variables, merge data about you from hundreds of sources, create a psychological profile, and calculate the exact scam that you'll fall for with the same effectiveness as YouTube, Facebook, or TikTok can guess the next video their users will engage in. Instead of recycling a handful of scams we can name, the AI will come up with a custom approach to fit the vulnerabilities of your particular brain, and it might not look like anything you've seen or imagined before.

To say we won't all get scammed is like saying you've never been sucked into a loop of algorithmically-selected content. Imagine if it's not just your child's voice and video image on the phone asking for a money transfer, but they also know all your information, can respond with the same intonation and cadence as the real person, and know the answer to any question you might ask. The stuff destroying people today is primitive compared to what's coming.

If the internet was developed to facilitate porn, AI will be developed to facilitate scams. Think about that if you are worried about the machines eventually turning on us. They will be built to harm people in the first place.

This.

[iris lily]

My mom (83) and my partner's mom (81) both fell for scams recently, thankfully they didn't lose much (partner's mom) or anything (my mom).
The issue is that they trust the phone. If someone calls them "from the bank", they implicitly trust them, because in their life experience, that is how things were done.
Of course they know to be careful "on the computer!", but the phone is different for them. Whereas for most of us, any phone call is completely suspect.

It wasn't even that long ago when banks called you about fraud. I got a call from my bank about someone using my credit card in Brazil. This was maybe 8-10 years ago.

My credit union still does this for even *potential* fraud. Though these days their first contact is a text. I just got one last week. They're very proactive about any transaction that looks at all unusual.

 My credit card company is like that too, and I appreciate it. It really seems pretty smart and detecting odd of the ordinary transactions.