People who yell, and other expressions of feelings

[joonifloofeefloo]

If you are not being heard because someone is refusing to hear you, yelling doesn't help.

I've seen it help.

Not long ago, I asked on the forum why some people respond to nothing short of ultimatums, threats, or yelling (three very different things, but I was wondering about these specifically). I was wondering because I've witnessed this to be the case.

Overall, I aim to not be around people like this, but if I were ever again stuck with one even temporarily, I would go ahead and use whatever tool they respond to. While I highly value kindness, civility, etc, I will do what it takes where a person responds to very limited inputs.

[LeRainDrop]

So we went to family counseling, which took the edge off a little but didn't really solve anything (though it did reinforce what I had been saying about how to manage her).  I also just started inserting myself between him and the kids -- I decided the "unified front" is bullshit when one of the parents is acting like a toddler or a bully, and if he started yelling I'd raise my voice and tell him to back off and take the kid off and do something.  It is important my kids know that it is not acceptable to be yelled at or intimidated, especially for little normal-kid stuff, and that I had their back.  And I talk to my kids openly about Daddy's anger, and especially when they hit teens/pre-teens and started modeling that explosiveness, I would ask them to remember how it feels when Dad acted that way to them, and ask them if that is the kind of person they want to grow up to be, or if they want to learn a different way to manage themselves.  I did consider divorce, but decided that leaving little kids alone with him half the time wasn't an improvement, and that it was better to make sure I could be there to protect them and intervene.  It was SO frustrating that such a brilliant man could have so little emotional intelligence that he couldn't see how his actions were affecting his kids or be open to change.  Although maybe I am being unfair; over time, the frequency of the yelling has diminished, either because he has mellowed or the kids got older, or whatever. 

Thanks for sharing your story.  It really resonated with me.

Growing up, my father was pretty quick to anger and we often had to walk on eggshells around him for fear of it.  He would yell and scream when he was mad, mostly at my mother, though sometimes at us kids.  Either way, it was absolutely terrifying to me and my siblings when he did it.  When he was especially mad, sometimes he broke or damaged things.  It didn't take much imagination to realize that the broken things just as easily could be our bones if we did something bad.

One of my brothers grew into a very angry teenager.  Like my dad, he screamed, yelled, and broke things.  He also made threats of bodily harm to the family on a number of occasions, and there were nights when I slept with my bureau pushed in front of my bedroom door just in case.  He was court-ordered into an anger management program in his teens after he gave a court deputy the middle finger.  He continues to go through cycles in his life where his anger is hidden because things are going relatively well and then when his anger absolutely explodes again, with him yelling at his girlfriend or family and also breaking things.  Honestly, his anger gets very out of control.  He recognizes that and hates it about himself, yet he really doesn't do much to change it other than to incorporate meditating into his daily life.  He actually gets a thrill out of viscerally stabbing you when he is mad at you (or at something else and you just happen to be conveniently there when it bubbles out).  Ironically, this brother is exceptionally sensitive to anyone even mildly disagreeing with him or even asking him a question.  He will claim that we are "yelling at him," that he "doesn't feel safe" around us, and that we "bully" him, even though we are really not doing anything confrontational whatsoever.

As for myself, I really dislike yelling and lose respect for people who do it for the purpose of asserting their dominance over another person.  However, if someone yells at me or confronts me, I will stand up for myself.  I don't yell back, but my heart starts pumping faster, my tone and speed of talking change, and I get remarkably "in the zone" for setting matters straight or explaining my perspective.  If someone is getting a thrill out of pushing me, like that aforementioned brother, then I tend to just say "okay" and walk away to calm down.  I'm not going to let some snot of a person make me lose my cool and behave in a way that I don't respect.

One observation I've made in life (vs this conversation) so far: it seems like those with more tendency to yell/raise voice tend to "speed up" when stressed (they want responses more quickly, they might lose some impulse control, might tend to say things they'll regret) whereas I have a (definitely learned!) response to "slow down" instead. I will mull every statement over like a chess move, how can it be taken wrong, is it actually conveying what I want to say? I will analyze my feelings extensively to get to the root of what is bothering me (since it's rarely whatever the silly trigger was) and then want to talk about it. Does anyone else relate, agree, disagree?

I TOTALLY agree with this.  I am like you.  The brother I described above who yells a lot DEFINITELY has struggled with impulse control his whole life.

ETA:  To end on a positive note, my dad started seeing a counselor, and I'd say that when I was around my early 20s, he completely committed to stop yelling and stop all physical intimidation.  Sometimes he's now passively-aggressive, but I much prefer it to his scary yelling.  I think in the last 15-20 years, I've only seen him yell one time, and that was after the aforementioned brother had poked and prodded at him incessantly, trying to provoke a fight, for an extended period of time.  Also, my dad's dad had modeled the same, if not worse, behavior when my dad was growing up.  This was definitely a parenting style that got passed on from father to son.  I'm pretty proud of my dad for how he has learned to change the ways he handles anger -- he is really good at dissipating it now.

[yakamashii]

Pizzabrewer, you're right that we're talking about different things. I agree with you that yelling to exert dominance over others is dickish behavior.

The sentiment that I got from your statement (yelling = being an asshole, full stop) was that it included yelling to be heard when other ways to be heard haven't worked. It's a conflation that I think a lot of people make, and it bothers me because to make that conflation is to dismiss how acutely some things hurt for some people.

I'm not arguing that yelling is an effective or particularly awesome thing to do. I'd love to ignore people who push buttons, or have a calm way of inappropriately asserting themselves that would look as inappropriate as it is if only they weren't so calm. I grew up in an environment where silence meant consent, so I tend to not want to let anyone even think I'm okay with things I'm not okay with. That's the main reason I'll yell at a person, to show that I am not okay with what's going down right now.

I have a shorter fuse than most, and I know yelling at people makes me look bad and look like the asshole, but in the moment it seems better than having the record show I didn't defend myself. It's a deep-seated issue with respect that I'm working through.

Just to let you know that looking from outside in, this sounds all wrong. There must be multiple people in your life who see it the same way.

If you are not being heard because someone is refusing to hear you, yelling doesn't help. You can intimidate someone into no open disagreement, but that's not the same thing.

Silence does not mean consent, at least not in the US. If you're not hearing "yes that's a good idea", there is no consent. Comments along the lines of "that's an interesting way of looking at things", "I don't know if I would agree with that", and similar calm and seemingly non-committal statements all mean "I think you are wrong". Silence means even less agreement, because you are not even engaging with the other person on their terms. Your family spoke a dialect different from most, so you need to learn the predominant dialect in order to communicate properly with the rest of the world.

We clearly didn't run in the same circles (I say "didn't" because I live in Japan now, where silence is a totally acceptable and sometimes encouraged response in a wide range of situations). My parents, and many teachers and other authority figures talked a big game about respect being a two-way street, but in reality it only worked one way. I'm still getting over that. In confrontations with them, they took my silence to mean I thought they had things right, so I learned to defend myself, vociferously, if necessary.

I understand that silence does not mean consent in a legal sense, and I do not believe that other people's silence means they agree _with me_. Please understand that. I had (and still have) difficulty believing that _my_ silence does not indicate consent because of the way things tended to go sideways when I kept my mouth shut. I learned early on that nobody has my best interests in mind to the extent that I do, and I believe everyone is the same in that regard.

When I yell at pushy people, I view it as pushing back, not intimidating without due cause. When a salesperson, reporter, or tout on the street refuses to take no for an answer and physically blocks the way, that's inappropriate. When a client calls with work and I refuse politely, but tries through multiple polite refusals to talk about how it'll only take x amount of time or it's not that big a deal, that's disrespectful. When I bring a concern to a boss during prescribed times and they dismiss it each time, then interrupt me weeks later to grouse about how the project is suffering because of that concern, that's rude. I don't feel bad about yelling in those situations (all of which I've experienced), and I don't consider it to be any more intimidating than them trying to walk all over me. I'm not trying to win; I'm trying to even the score and remind them that I'm a person deserving of respect. I realize that my barometer for disrespect is more sensitive than most, and that I sense immediacy where there is little, and I'm working on that. But I don't think the other people in the situations I described were being particularly civil, and I don't think that yelling is inherently abusive or wrong.

[omachi]

Additional questions for everybody: How do you draw the line between near-universally unacceptable ways to express emotions (beating/killing people, property damage) vs expressions that are not physically harmful but may be intimidating, scary, emotionally damaging to a target/bystander (punching a pillow, slamming/throwing things without damage and not at people, yelling, cussing)? How do you draw the line between raised voice/yelling and other sympathetic nervous responses to stress (e.g. crying), which might be on the margins of our control or out of it entirely? Of course crying is not intimidating in the same way yelling is, but it could be used in a manipulative way (intentionally or otherwise).

Are they remaining calm and doing this in private or are they making a display of it? If you throw a chair near me, I'm still going to take it as the attempt to intimidate that it is. Frankly, I don't want to hang around people who attempt to intimidate anybody. Life's too short for jerks. If you swallow it, go home, and toss a chair in the privacy of your own home without anybody around, way to delay gratification, I guess. If you then tell me you did so, I'll probably express concern for your mental health.

As for other responses like crying, it depends on the reason. If you're wounded then I'm going to administer first aid and possibly call for medical help if needed. If you're breaking up with somebody, that's generally pretty sad and tears seem expected. If your ice cream cone fell on the ground and you're not six or younger, why are you crying? There's a spectrum, and I expect that everybody has a different point on that where it's acceptable for somebody to cry. But like yelling, crying or any other outburst of emotion isn't a winning argument. And yes, I've been branded as mean for not letting the emotional "win".

All of this is of course to say that the party with the outburst wasn't legitimately about to be harmed in some way. If somebody were being threatened with a knife, I'd expect some yelling or crying or something. My hat would be off to anybody who managed to respond calmly in such situations, because there's a legitimate threat and that dumps a lot of fight or flight chemicals into the brain.

I think you're being idealistic. Yes, ideally, we would be able to calmly/rationally take in stride anything that isn't actually life-or-death fear, pain, etc. But in reality...I'm pretty sure most couple's fights aren't about the big stuff (of course some are); but most are at an inconvenient moment over something ridiculous. You both come home tired, you're trying to make dinner, they keep getting in your way, your blood boils and you snap, they're pretty fed up because you've been getting in *their* way but *they* didn't say anything, and also they've made dinner *by themselves* every other night this week so they're irritated to have to help at all, so they're extra offended that you're being a hypocrite so then they snap back and you don't realize the background of it so you yell at them, and so forth...Or, feelings get pent up with the best of intentions (they're going through a deadline at work, bad news, etc are you really going to add your feelings to stuff they need to manage?) and then with some ridiculous thing the feelings boil over. I guess, in a nutshell what I'm trying to say is that our stupid animal brains don't just respond to life-or-death situations with life-or-death stress; we have similar reactions to much more minor occurrences.

I'm neither a starry eyed idealist nor hypocritical in my above statements. I don't yell and I don't fight. I've been known to take a deep breath, sigh, and give that "really?" glare. I can even get a little short when tired before the "oh, let's all calm down a bit and just talk it over" part kicks in. Honest, open communication is the key to avoiding the sorts of issues you mention. Both parties have to embrace that, but the only real difficulty is getting over some romantic notion that people should be able to read your mind. If you haven't communicated your desires, intents, frustrations, whatever, then swallow whatever wells up and realize it's your own damn fault when they fail to read your mind.

In your dinner example, there are sooooo many places where half an ounce of communication from either party would prevent getting to the point of yelling:

• They could have mentioned feeling taken for granted earlier in the week when they started feeling that way.
• They could state they've made dinner all week and ask if you can handle it tonight. Or just delegate it.
• You could state you appreciate they're trying to help, but since they've made dinner all week you have this, so why don't they go relax.
• When they are under foot, state plainly and calmly that you need to do X, could they please prepare Y (which is out of the way).
• They could have done likewise and said something calmly when you were under foot.
• They could have asked for assistance earlier in the week.
• You could have offered assistance earlier in the week.
• When they snap, you can ask what is wrong rather than immediately retaliating.
• When they snap, they could include the reason they're feeling short tempered. And you could listen.
• If you've failed like this before, you could talk about ways to prevent it happening again.

Now, if there are larger unresolved problems in play and somebody's just spoiling for a fight, none of the above is likely to happen and even if it does, the one looking for a fight will get it anyway. All couples fights are proxy wars for the big stuff. Remove the big stuff and there's no need to fight over small things unless you're just sad and petty. Anybody that can cook isn't going to break under a week of cooking. A week of cooking on top of some big, unresolved problem? Bring it on.

While our stupid animal brains may immediately go for emotional outbursts, our forebrain is able to put the brakes on that. We're humans, not feral animals. If you practice communicating to the point where it is the default option, you rarely get to the point where you need to consciously work yourself down. If it gets to that point anyway, you can exercise a little willpower. If you haven't made your needs known prior to feeling the need for an outburst, it's your own fault, so turn that outburst inward.

[wenchsenior]

As a general rule, I view yelling as falling into two categories: 1) Either the yeller is just acting like an asshole; or 2) the yeller is in a position of weakness or fear (often subconscious) and isn't in very good control of their responses to the situation. 

There are a handful of exceptions to this, but most yelling I've encountered falls into these. I'm not really much of a yeller, and the rare occasions I do it have been mostly category 2.  The one notable occasion I can remember going on an extended public rant at top volume, it was Category 1 and I was intentionally being a raging asshole to my boss, whom I absolutely loathed.  I really enjoyed that incident perhaps because I so rarely allow myself to be total asshole to someone's face.  But still, it wasn't a great way to handle quitting LOL.

DH grew up in an explosive, yelling prone household and modeled the behavior subconsciously.  By the time he was in his thirties, he realized that blowing up like that was essentially hanging a neon sign around his neck that he was immature , lacking self control, and/or frightened (exactly the opposite of what he THOUGHT yelling was doing for him).  Then he worked hard to train himself out of the behavior.  He very rarely blows up now, only in situations of extreme stress or frustration, maybe once every couple years.  He has found other ways to handle those negative emotions.

[Laura33]

This conversation has me thinking a lot about why I think some yelling is ok and some isn't. 

My background says no yelling is ok.  But I also interpreted that to mean that expressing strong negative emotions was also not ok, and that I was somehow "bad" for having them.  Which trained me into being passive-aggressive, internalizing/suppressing anger, and holding grudges.  DH's family had a totally different way of interacting -- loud, yes; and to my mind rude.  But if they had an issue they brought it right out, dealt with it, and got over it.  So it is hard to understate how important that shift was for me:  I can ask directly for what I want!  I can be angry and say I'm angry, and people will still like me after!  I can even lose my cool once in a while and still be loved at the end of it all!  The idea that I didn't need to be perfect to be loved, and that I had the right to ask for what I wanted and to feel whatever I felt, was truly freeing.

OTOH, yelling to intimidate or get your way by bullying is never ok.  That is an abuse of power.  And that also includes people who yell when they are clueless about the power differential -- like, say, a dad who isn't paying attention to how his behavior affects his kids, or a customer who yells at a server, etc.

I am thinking of this because I actually yelled at someone at work a few weeks ago, for the first time in 25 years, and I don't feel bad about it at all -- but every time I yell at my kids, I see it as a personal failure.  So why the difference?  Big part is the power difference -- the guy I yelled at was my peer.  But also, I had busted my butt to make sure something happened for him.  I came up with a creative solution that allowed him to start, and I got the management committee to agree he could start based on his compliance with specific terms.  He repeatedly affirmed that he would do what we asked.  I asked status a few times over the next week or so, and it was in process or he'd do it right after some deadline, etc.  I was frustrated, but addressed him professionally.  And then a couple of weeks later, when I reminded him that he still needed to do what he had promised, he made more excuses, and then flat-out said that he wasn't going to do it.  Oh: and I am responsible for minimizing risk to the firm, and his actions directly put the firm at risk.

So, basically, I worked late nights and went out on a limb for him with our mutual bosses to get him what he wanted, and it turns out he never intended to keep his promise, even though that decision put the firm at risk (talk about biting the hand that feeds you!), AND he had repeatedly lied to me about his intent.  So I lost it -- I yelled at him that that was NOT acceptable, that he was only allowed to start because he had agreed to do that, and so he was damn well going to do it or stop work now.  And then I calmed down a little, got my calm-tight-angry voice out, and said I was going to hang up the phone, because I was so angry that I was going to say something I regretted.  And I hung up on him (something else I have never done in 25 years).

It's been a couple of weeks, and I still don't feel bad about it.  Because he fucking deserved it.  But if he needs to do something and won't pay attention at normal volume, maybe going to 11 isn't a bad thing.

[Caoineag]

Definitely an interesting conversation for me as I am a non-yeller and one of my life long friends was/sort of is a yeller (she no longer yells at calm people, only at other yellers now, but that didn't use to be true).

I was raised with a father I wasn't permitted to talk back to so no conflict permitted there whatsoever, especially since he could lose his cool completely and that was not okay. My job was to do whatever he said and never talk back. My mother on the other hand modeled rational discussion with me and only occasionally modeled silently stewing fury needing time to cool before engaging with everybody (both Dad and I knew if we had angered her to this point, we were to leave her absolutely alone until she calmed down and was rational again). As a result, I will literally run from someone who is a yeller. In my experience, yelling back escalates things and I have known too many scary people whose anger you do not want to encourage. That said, if you trap me for too long so I can't run, well there won't be a relationship left to repair because I will lash out and my words can destroy.

If you need to discuss an issue, I am your gal. I want to resolve it so its never an issue again and will purposely think how my words will affect the person I am discussing with so as to deescalate the situation. I will even refrain from immediate confrontation so I can think of how to offer up the issue for discussion without accusation or escalation. So I have a tendency of either letting things go because frustration is part of the human condition or setting up discussions that are free from accusation and exist only to permanently resolve the issue. If I am frustrated or upset, I will stop to think for a moment because taking my issues out on other people makes me despise myself. It is unacceptable behavior and should I give in to the temptation of taking my frustration out on another person, I must, as punishment for my sin, apologize to the person later for my outburst and explain how inappropriate my behavior was. Needless to say, I do not lose my cool with people, not even lazy coworkers more than once every couple of years. I find it humiliating to acknowledge any loss of control.

Needless to say I married my DH and we are a calm discussion household. He also avoids taking his frustrations out on me and we resolve issues so they are only dealt with once. It was actually funny one of the few times we were both in black moods and carefully avoiding making eye contact with each other in the car until it passed. We even laughed about it the same day because we both knew what we were doing. My hubby just told me the time he remembers involved us both taking the bus and refusing to even sit next to each other. We chose different seats. Fortunately, we haven't had black moods like that in awhile but we definitely don't believe in taking our bad days out on each other so it works well. Our rule is discuss if it can be resolved, but if its just irritation or frustration, wait for it to pass and don't take it out on each other.

[joonifloofeefloo]

I intentionally teach my kid to yell. He very rarely does. He knows what and when it's for. I'm glad he has this resource.

[Aegishjalmur]

I view yelling at someone as a lack or loss of control, akin to getting slobbering drunk at a work function. To me, it would be embarrassing. It would take a lot of effort for someone to provoke me to the point were I would start screaming at them, anything more than a 'Hey' or similar to get their attention.

If you think you are going to win an argument by screaming, you're wrong. I may not argue with you but it's because I've lost respect for you and consider it a waste of my time.

[Apples]

Additional questions for non-yellers: Why not yell back?

OMFG! Are you kidding me? Why not just ask why you don't teleport yourself to your safe place? Or call the fairy god-mother to make it go away? Or just close your eyes and ignore everything and then it would go away? Even better; why not just ask yourself what you did wrong and then promise yourself not to do it again?

I grew up on a farm and when (not if) something broke, my step-dad would lose his temper and just fly off in a rage. I was not quite nine years old the first time I saw this on display. Then I was ten years old and I decidedly did *not* have the option of walking off the job, quitting, reporting this outburst to the boss, requesting a transfer, expressing my concern for the lack of anger management skills, exiting the relationship or anything really. I was ten and had to deal with it; no other option. Then I was eleven. Then twelve. Then thirteen. One day, when I was 17 and out of high school (then and only then) did I say 'fuck this and you. I'm outta here. You can do whatever you want to do now, but without me around.'

As a result of this experience, I tend to group yellers in the same category as con-artists, drug dealers and pimps; if it makes you happy; knock yourself out. But in my book your are a piece of shit.

There is a much broader group of "people who yell" than just people who fly into rages.  My mom yelled at us growing up.  It wasn't abusive.  It had a lot to do with being frustrated, starting calmly, and then when we still didn't behave eventually yelling to help get the point across.  Or sometimes the straw that broke the camel's back and an overreaction to the exact moment but not the sum total of the day's events (she stayed home with 3 of us).  I'm now in my 20's and find myself yelling only when supremely frustrated, and somewhat angry.  It works excellently to get my frustration/anger out.  Usually I yell at things like "this stupid computer wont. load. anything" or at worst, I loudly complain like "we are never going to get this stupid house clean because you spend too much time in the vegetable garden and I'm stuck in here sweeping all the time".  It's yelling, but in the moment it's more a reflection of the volume of emotions inside than taking rage out on another person.  I don't yell until I'm already well worked up, and have already said a few things in a calm voice.  Then it's less than 30 seconds of yelling, then I feel better.  All the things I yell about I'm also able, at other times, to have grownup discussions about in a healthy way.  I never insult, I never blame (well, that veggie garden example above is the closest I get), I never rant.  It's brief and definitely a venting.  Yelling into pillows helps about 25% as much as just regular yelling does.  But I've never yelled to make my point or ridicule someone or rage at them.

I've only yelled professionally twice in 5 years.  I work on a farm, so the norms are different than office norms.  And there was some flagrant disrespect and not listening to directions going on both times. My yelling was immediately followed by stern discussion of the problems.

Other people who used to be yellers - how do I skip to just a stern discussion of the problems without first snapping or yelling a bit?  It seems like the release valve that allows me to make full sentences that focus on the problem again, instead of being so frustrated in the moment.  My dad and husband just say "idk, just don't yell" but my dh will leave a room and come back when he feels better, which also doesn't help in the moment.  Like, if the kid needs disciplined right now, and I can't yell, but also he shouldn't walk away, well......?  Having kids in future, need guidance!

+1 to yelling a lot less and having more tolerance when not sleep deprived.  Had a 1.5 year old live with us for a few months, and oh man did my yelling start to tick up each week of less sleep.

[joonifloofeefloo]

Very well said, Apples!

Also, when hanging with people who will "just walk out of a room", there's a conundrum, especially when small kids are involved, or there is a serious issue at hand. Some people (in my direct experience) who simply walk out of a room are waiting for things to resolve, i.e., relying on someone else to resolve them. They come back and pronounce everything fine. The person unwilling to leave tiny children unattended during a problem, or willing to get in there and resolve the tech or mechanical issue, is committed to safety and resolution yet is left further burdened, thus more prone to yelp or even rant.

I am far more triggered by people who simply leave the room than I am by a person who yelps. (And as you note, yelping is completely distinct from flying into an abusive rage, and I'm trusting the title of this thread was accurate).

[omachi]

Other people who used to be yellers - how do I skip to just a stern discussion of the problems without first snapping or yelling a bit?  It seems like the release valve that allows me to make full sentences that focus on the problem again, instead of being so frustrated in the moment.

Never a yeller, but there's no reason it shouldn't be exactly like any other emotional response. If you feel you have to yell, that's likely just some ritual that you've become accustomed to in that sort of situation. You can change that if you want to. Your brain just wants its fix of whatever reaction it's been trained to want in the situation.

Try substituting yelling with something else, whether that's taking a deep breath and counting out loud to three, closing your eyes and thinking "loudly", glaring at whomever you'd yell at. Let's go with the deep breath and count for the purpose of this post.

Maybe it isn't effective right away and you're not able to form sentences after just this. If not, take your deep breath and count anyway, then yell if you have to in order to return to a rational state. Most people can't substitute habits immediately, and it's no worse than just yelling anyway, right? No problem. Just do the breath and count first. With time, you should find that your mind starts associating both the deep breath and count as well as the yelling with the situation that previously was only associated yelling. The order may be frustration makes you want to yell makes you remember to take a deep breath and count. That's fine. You're on your way.

At some point, it will be ingrained that the deep breath comes first, because every time you're met with levels of frustration that make you want to yell, the deep breath is what you do first. Frustration will make you want to take a deep breath, count to three, then yell. Yay, now the non-yelling is first. You've successfully substituted this set of events for just yelling. At this point, you can try omitting the yelling. This part should be easier, because now you're just shortening your reaction, and not trying to remove the part that's your first reaction. You'll be frustrated, you'll take a deep breath, you'll count to three, and you'll already be on your way to being coherent. Maybe if you're particularly frustrated you'll still yell. Oh well, still better than always yelling. With time, the lower frustration events where you don't yell will reinforce that just the deep breath and count is all you need for coherence and you'll feel less of an urge with the high frustration events. Once you can do just this part and not feel the need to yell, you'll have successfully substituted your response. Congrats.

From there, either be happy with the non-yelling response or work to make it even less of a response. Maybe you go from deep breath and counting out loud to deep breath and counting in your head. Maybe you only need the deep breath. You still have a response, your brain still gets its ritual, and nobody is on the business end of any yelling.

[Caoineag]

Very well said, Apples!

Also, when hanging with people who will "just walk out of a room", there's a conundrum, especially when small kids are involved, or there is a serious issue at hand. Some people (in my direct experience) who simply walk out of a room are waiting for things to resolve, i.e., relying on someone else to resolve them. They come back and pronounce everything fine. The person unwilling to leave tiny children unattended during a problem, or willing to get in there and resolve the tech or mechanical issue, is committed to safety and resolution yet is left further burdened, thus more prone to yelp or even rant.

I am far more triggered by people who simply leave the room than I am by a person who yelps. (And as you note, yelping is completely distinct from flying into an abusive rage, and I'm trusting the title of this thread was accurate).

1) I never walk out of a room if a child is being yelled at. The protection of the child is far more important than my comfort.
2) I have known exactly one yeller who meets the definition the other yellers on this thread are using (someone who briefly, out of frustration yells and then deescalates). Every other yeller I have known has had the potential to escalate into actual violence (and many have which is why I don't trust anyone who yells, especially not with young children).
3) I have never seen someone yelling resolve a serious situation. Ever. I have seen the calm people with them resolve a very serious situation despite the added confusion of them yelling, but I repeat, the yeller resolved nothing and was a burden, not an asset.
4) I believe in permanent conflict resolution. I want to discuss and resolve a problem so its not a problem again. If I walk out of a room, you are screaming. I can tolerate a little yelling but not screaming. I will, however, not say anything until the yeller is completely finished with their rant. I will even touch base with them to make sure they are finished before trying to discuss or say anything. I also confirm with them that they are calmer now before proceeding (if I think we can discuss the matter, sometimes a topic is too sensitive for the yeller and the topic must be completely changed). Too many people can be wound back up again and I do not enjoy being yelled at so will not encourage such behavior.

One of the things I get complimented on at my job is my ability to calm other people who are on the verge of complete panic. Its the people who yell, rant or panic who compliment me on my ability to calm them. Because I do this on a regular basis, many of the people prone to such outbursts calm at the sight of me because they know when they see me, I will take care of their problem. These are not the people I refer to when discussing people who yell.

I think this topic is very hard to discuss online because everyone pictures the yellers in their life differently. Some of you are picturing a momentary outburst that quickly fizzles out, still others (myself included) are picturing someone who screams and has the potential to get physically violent. An additional problem is that some of the yellers who really fit into the second category, picture themselves in the first category of yellers and don't understand that they have a serious problem.

I will add one other item. If I permitted myself to yell at people, it would be very bad. I don't wind down. Yelling is not a release. Yelling builds my anger, not quells it. I am calm because yelling only creates more problems, not resolves them. For those who feel they must yell to be heard, I will point out that when I am pushed too far and on the verge of losing my cool, I actually drop an octave and speak slowly. No one has ever ignored me when I do that, yeller or not and I am a small female so its not like I can be or choose to be physically intimidating.

[joonifloofeefloo]

I think this topic is very hard to discuss online because everyone pictures the yellers in their life differently. Some of you are picturing a momentary outburst that quickly fizzles out, still others (myself included) are picturing someone who screams and has the potential to get physically violent.

Yes. (And at least four other possible pictures.)

When the thread opened, I had assumed it was referring to the first, and a few other possibilities, and have continued asserting a place for that.

I agree that while two extremely different scenarios are being imagined, it's hard to discuss in any effective way.

I want to add that know plenty of people (me included) who are super capable of calm, nonviolent, productive communication, descalation even in really intense scenarios, etc, who also implement nonabusive yelling. I see that people can have both abilities, that one doesn't remove the other.

I have used yelling to protect my child (around two years old at the time) from a stranger. The stranger was ignoring every other signal (physical and verbal from me). The yelling is the only thing that stopped him, and that woke others around us to the issue.

I don't see dichotomy here.

[omachi]

I have used yelling to protect my child (around two years old at the time) from a stranger. The stranger was ignoring every other signal (physical and verbal from me). The yelling is the only thing that stopped him, and that woke others around us to the issue.

I think aggressive strangers around children would fall under the imminent danger blanket that everybody above has agreed is a good reason to yell. And while it's yelling at a perceived threat as opposed to alerting somebody in danger or telling your charge to stop endangering themselves, I don't think that really changes the category that this sort of yelling falls into.

[Caoineag]

...
I have used yelling to protect my child (around two years old at the time) from a stranger. The stranger was ignoring every other signal (physical and verbal from me). The yelling is the only thing that stopped him, and that woke others around us to the issue.

I don't see dichotomy here.

To me, the thread title removes this scenario as something I would even include here. That is not yelling as an expression of feelings, that is yelling to alert others of danger and to force someone to back off. Someone who did that in front of me would never be labelled "a person who yells". In fact, I have raised by voice in an aggressive situation to avoid danger as well. But I don't have a single acquaintance who would label me a yeller and my yelling in that situation had nothing to do with my feelings and everything to do with getting the attention of both the aggressor and people around the person being attacked.

While I understand there are times and places for yelling, I have never known someone who could be labeled a yeller (by themselves or by those around them) who I would label as in control of their emotions. And in my experience, people who yell to express their emotions have either learned to stop yelling or have eventually escalated to levels that most of the self-acknowledged yellers on this thread would consider unacceptable by anyone's standards (aka abusive). In fact, quite a few of the yellers I have known who stopped, did so when they reached the abusive level because that is what it took for them to see how out of control they really were. As I mentioned before, I do find this thread interesting because of the people I have known. Seeing (well, reading) people defending being a yeller as acceptable behavior is really not something I see in real life. I think the one coworker prone to outbursts at the moment (only one I know who could conceivably be labeled non-abusive) is seen at my work as about to cross that line and many of my coworkers have point blanked said to him, "you will not yell at me. It is unacceptable behavior."

I am not even sure if you and I agree that a yeller would be someone who uses yelling as a regular solution to multiple situations (to me that's a yeller but I think you have a different definition judging by your examples included). The title people who yell, and other expressions of feelings denotes yelling as an expression of feeling so to me there are far fewer emotional yellers who could possibly be within the realm of acceptable behavior.

[joonifloofeefloo]

When I yelled at the stranger, it was not strategic. It was pure feeling: anger (which I'm also a fan of). It was only a side-effect that it got others' attention.

I only hate that anything short of yelling did not stop the stranger OR engage anyone around us, all of whom were witnessing everything from within a few feet. (We were all at the front of a bus.)

The stranger or some of the witnesses may well have assessed me as crazy, or "a yeller", or out of control, or not in control of my emotions. I yelled, and I was very very angry. But was I out of control? No. Not at all.

I've had success with implementing yelling in similar moments of others' boundary invasions, in several cases with permanent effect.

I don't think anyone who knows me would describe me as "a yeller," even though I yell sometimes, yet I am very comfy with it (and with other people's yelling, except about sports or who is most frugal on this forum, etc). I just think it has its place, in a very large repetoire of capacities and expressions.

[Rosy]

Great discussion! I've read with a lot of interest (and sometimes heartbreak :'( ). Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences and opinions.

You remind me of my girlfriend when we first started dating. I wasn't from the calm household, but I'm very calm and don't yell/don't tolerate anyone yelling at me. I walked out on her more than once early on because she started yelling. She hasn't yelled at me in a long time now but I don't really know how she went about changing her behavior, but it happened or we wouldn't be together still.

Do you think this might have come across as dismissive, passive-agressive, and/or controlling?

Thank you for asking this question. My first thought was "controlling". Dismissive at best. I find dismissive hurtful - it tells me, you are not important enough to me. Controlling - absolutely - you asserted yourself in no uncertain terms.
I find it amazing that such behaviour would be OK, although it is apparently highly effective. Most curious. Strangely enough though, I found this reaction OK as it related to the work episode - walking out on a boss who yelled in a meeting. Certainly more gumption than I would have had.

No offense intended, just being honest here about what I am really thinking on this subject - which has been the bane of my existence:).

Yup, I am one of those terrible yellers, well at least I used to be - last eruption was years ago, but that doesn't mean I don't still struggle with it. It just means that I have learned to repress my emotions long enough to think and approach the subject rationally and not come off like a raging bull.

I have learned that not showing your emotions is what it is all about - cool as a cucumber, calm and collected and in charge. Who wouldn't want that? I don't really like to lose control or the correct word in my case would be to lose my temper. It's to the boiling point in a millisecond and poof, gone and deflated a minute later.
I totally concur with the poster who said, she would have to write herself a note in the evening to remember to discipline her daughter in the morning. When it is all over, it is off my radar forever - you will get nothing but a genuinely blank look from me.

1. I grew up in a family where everyone yelled, where doors no longer shut properly, because they had been slammed so many times. I leave the rest to your imagination - highly charged emotions and volatile, explosive tempers all around.
2. I was taught to be wary of people who could not openly and loudly express their feelings. They are sly and not to be trusted, because who knows what they are really thinking.
3. I am also a passionate person whose voice rises naturally when discussing topics of interest. Toning that down was torture, it was just excitement, but unfortunately that is not always perceived as such. I had a lot to learn about "acceptable" social norms. Gee how I hate(d) social norms.

A discussion or conversation must be conducted in a dispassionate way? Thank goodness, not everyone is that way, but one must learn in which cultures and circles it is deemed acceptable. Sigh, why can't I be myself? It offends? It scares off? or leads people to voice remarks like you already lost the argument? I was not arguing in the first place, I simply raised my voice in excitement. 
That to me is a huge difference, which apparently is completely lost on non-yellers:) I can conform to the norm, but it does not come natural.

Why then am I being punished (is how I used to see it), because other people perceive loud and rising voices as threatening - not fair! What is wrong with you that you perceive all loud voices as anger?
Why can't you tell the difference?

4. The only place where I managed to never ever yell, was at work. I had a professional career.
 I bet there were no more than maybe one or at max two situations that I had an immediate, emotional reaction to, but it ended there. I mentally counted to a hundred, dug in my fingernails until it drew blood and took several deep breaths. I must master my emotions, breathe. I will not let this curse destroy my career.
I suspect the reason I never had any issues at work was that I was good at my job, dedicated and always professional, so I was respected and I was happy.

5. It was an unsettling discovery to realize that I had no language other than yelling with which to express myself in certain situations. How do you express anger without yelling?
Bottomline - I very much envy people who never had such issues.

Home was always a roller-coaster of emotions for me and looking back I am not proud of some of my actions. I will not bore you with details, let's just say that it took me a long time and many incremental steps to reach the status of an official non-yeller.
Besides, as you get older there is a certain laissez-faire that you acquire - few things matter as much as they once did.

I was not surprised when I learned that there is a violent streak in my family, we even have a family name for these rages, carried over generations, the kind of uncontrolled, blind, destructive rage that makes you do crazy things which you immediately regret. I fear it is in my genes, which might explain why it was so hard to deal with.
While some of my yelling was totally harmless and really not much more than learned behaviour, I never could and still cannot control the intensity. The only saving grace is that the black rages were always rare and thankfully I have not had one in twenty years.
I hate being out of control.

Mr. R. bless his heart is the perfect antidote and being with him has allowed me to finally relax and embrace a non-confrontational relationship in a wonderfully quiet partnership. Amazing!:)

[joonifloofeefloo]

I think the most important piece is that "yelling = problem" is subjective, as we're exploring on this thread.

Personally, I'm not at all triggered by people yelling from emotion, after escalation. I just see it as fine, healthy, not problematic. But I recognize this is so for me. And not so for everyone. If I knew someone was upset by any yelling, and I could see they were genuinely functioning respectfully of me too, I would sure try not to yell at them. Not because I think yelling is wrong (I clearly don't), but because I wouldn't want to hurt a person who is sensitive to yelling.

Likewise, I aim to not be around people who yell at sports, and would so appreciate a person who normally yelled at sports to not do it around me, because they care about me (not because yelling at sports is wrong, because it's not). I grew up in a house of sports fanatics, who were extremely emotional in response to plays. They weren't wrong to yell, and I wasn't wrong to be affected by it.

And I know others who LOVE emotional yelling. They enjoy it, thrive with it, crave it, find it fun. That's not the case for me, but that doesn't make it not true for them.

[joonifloofeefloo]

Rosy! I sure enjoyed that post!! Thank you for it :)

[LadyStache in Baja]

I feel things very intensely, even the happy emotions.  I'm very excitable. In every sense of the word.

I get super frustrated. I'm likely to yell GRRRRR when I'm working. Or GOD FUCKING DAMNIT!!!! (not at people, just at my task, or something some idiot did, but not TO the idiot).

I get super happy about perceived happy things too. I will shout YAY! Omg! I will call you breathlessly talk your ear off about the latest EXCITING NEW THING happening in my life.

Look at my post, I'm literally yelling right now. I'm the only one who has responded in caps. So yeah, excitable over here.

That being said, I HATE when I yell. And I'm starting to hate the happy-excitement too. They both come with a down that sucks. If its a happy excited, then the down is usually tiredness after having spent so much energy being excited + the sobering realization that it's not really that great, and there are some risks and downsides involved.

The down of an angry yelling outburst is an immediate headache, potential damage to loved ones, shame, and as someone mentioned, the fact that it doesn't actually work to achieve ones goals, and now I look like a crazy person and have lost all respect and ability to convince you of whatever it is I'm yelling about.

If kids are involved, it means I've set a bad example (and my oldest has picked it right up), and I've increased the energy in the room rather than calmed it. Not good.

In general I'm trying hard not to give so many fucks. I've learned as I've gotten older that whatever it is that I'm so excited about (either happily or angrily) is probably not that big of a deal. And I could just let go, and see what happens. I'm always trying to convince others around me, and it's exhausting and I want to stop and just enjoy people's company and let them figure out their own life. But I get caught up in the excitement of it.

Oh yeah, also control and anxiety are HUGE in this. I yell when I feel out of control. Because someone's not listening to me, or because I want something so very badly and worry that I may not get it. Or because my kids are disobeying me and I'm scared that I'm out of control (like they're ruling the roost), and I'm not raising them right. Like perfectionism gone bad. It's fear and anxiety based in me.

I'll look at the book mentioned above.

[wenchsenior]

FWIW, I did not interpret this thread, nor calibrate my response upthread, to be remotely about yelling as 1) a way to alert someone of danger; 2) protect someone from danger; 3) to alert someone that the yeller is in danger (i.e, teaching your kid to yell if a stranger approaches them). OBVIOUSLY, those are all fine. Nor did I mean:  4) what I do when the Packers are playing awesome/very badly (which is scream, pace, jump up and down, etc...that is FUN yelling LOL).

I thought this thread was about people who regularly yell to communicate in otherwise pretty standard everyday situations.  I usually find those people mildly silly and tiresome. I don't find them intimidating (unless they escalate to physical violence, 'cause I'm a wee twig person). I've had people scream directly into my face before, and it doesn't impress me at all (again, unless they appear ready to physically attack).

[Caoineag]

...
Thank you for asking this question. My first thought was "controlling". Dismissive at best. I find dismissive hurtful - it tells me, you are not important enough to me. Controlling - absolutely - you asserted yourself in no uncertain terms.
I find it amazing that such behaviour would be OK, although it is apparently highly effective. Most curious. Strangely enough though, I found this reaction OK as it related to the work episode - walking out on a boss who yelled in a meeting. Certainly more gumption than I would have had.

See, this is why I am so fascinated by this thread. Why was her behavior not controlling as well? To me they both were ineffective in communicating in a respectful manner in that scenario. I assumed he could not handle yelling but I have seen people who walked out of normal discussions like that and in that case, I would definitely consider it controlling. I would think that part of your 2 different views on the topic have to do with the boss having more power and the girlfriend being seen as having less than the boyfriend. I don't automatically see the girlfriend as having less power because my family is a family of matriarchs, the women hold the emotional control which is why they need to careful how they use it on their spouses. To me, most husbands get their main emotional support from their wife. If she attacks him, who can be his emotional support network? (American here, men aren't supposed to be in touch with their feelings though its getting better in the younger generations).

...When it is all over, it is off my radar forever - you will get nothing but a genuinely blank look from me.

See, once you yell at me, I will remember that forever. I can forgive and forget irritating things, stupid things, weird habits or discussions, but I never forget you yelling at me. That damage to the relationship is forever and accumulates. Enough of those and the value of relationship plummets to nothing.

...
2. I was taught to be wary of people who could not openly and loudly express their feelings. They are sly and not to be trusted, because who knows what they are really thinking.

Why wouldn't you know what I was thinking, I would tell you in detail. Are you not allowed to describe emotion, only feel it?

3. I am also a passionate person whose voice rises naturally when discussing topics of interest. Toning that down was torture, it was just excitement, but unfortunately that is not always perceived as such. I had a lot to learn about "acceptable" social norms. Gee how I hate(d) social norms.

  People getting excitable on a topic are fine, the question is, can anyone else discuss the topic or have you completely drowned them out? If no one else has spoken in the past 5 minutes on the topic, only you have, that's generally a sign that you have crossed that line. (Not sure if you had or not, but with the yeller I grew up with, it always crossed that line and the topic had to be changed to avoid 30 minute monologues).

What is wrong with you that you perceive all loud voices as anger? Why can't you tell the difference?

For me, only sometimes has the yelling resulted in physical assault, but that means that every time someone yells, it is a real risk that they will cross that line.When you associate yelling with the potential for physical abuse, every yeller is a potential abuser.

4. The only place where I managed to never ever yell, was at work. I had a professional career.

But why would I treat my coworkers better than the people I love? The people I love are way more important than my coworkers or my career.
 

  5. It was an unsettling discovery to realize that I had no language other than yelling with which to express myself in certain situations. How do you express anger without yelling?

Unfortunately, there are many ways to express anger and I am very eloquent. Learning to dissipate rather than take it out on the people I care about is an important skill even for non-yellers and one I had to learn. I was actually asked by one of my friends as a teenager to be kinder because I would hurt them with my words. My husband also has to watch what he says to people because he can express his anger too readily for the comfort of others. I do wonder if a portion of emotional yellers feel it is impossible to express their anger in any other way.

While I have discussed this topic with my long time friend who was a habitual yeller about the most unimportant topics, her self-awareness of her emotions and her ability to express them tends to be pretty limited. She definitely was raised in a household where yelling was the only acceptable expression of emotions (discussions of emotions were apparently inappropriate from her father's prospective, but coming after a child with a broom, no issues there).

[Vindicated]

I was actually asked by one of my friends as a teenager to be kinder because I would hurt them with my words. My husband also has to watch what he says to people because he can express his anger too readily for the comfort of others. I do wonder if a portion of emotional yellers feel it is impossible to express their anger in any other way.

Now I'm wondering if there is a correlation to non-yellers being overly (brutally) honest with words.  I've also been told that I was being too harsh or too honest at times, but I had a point to make, and it's just not natural for me to make that point by yelling.

[Letj]

Rosy! I sure enjoyed that post!! Thank you for it :)

Me too! So real and she described me. My family is from a culture where people are passionate and raising your voice doesn't equal violence. People can have a loud and heated political discussion and still be best of friends. I never understood the American penchant for always dispassionate and calm discussions. Their feelings are also easily hurt.

[Apples]

Very well said, Apples!

Also, when hanging with people who will "just walk out of a room", there's a conundrum, especially when small kids are involved, or there is a serious issue at hand. Some people (in my direct experience) who simply walk out of a room are waiting for things to resolve, i.e., relying on someone else to resolve them. They come back and pronounce everything fine. The person unwilling to leave tiny children unattended during a problem, or willing to get in there and resolve the tech or mechanical issue, is committed to safety and resolution yet is left further burdened, thus more prone to yelp or even rant.

I am far more triggered by people who simply leave the room than I am by a person who yelps. (And as you note, yelping is completely distinct from flying into an abusive rage, and I'm trusting the title of this thread was accurate).

1) I never walk out of a room if a child is being yelled at. The protection of the child is far more important than my comfort.

I realize the thread has moved on, but I want to say that dh wouldn't walk out b/c a child is being yelled at.  Scenario is the kid(s) is/are being crazy, it's just one of those days, and they're. not. listening. or. behaving.  Both DH and I are worked up, at the end of the line, etc.  His response would be to leave the room to calm down.  My response would be to snap at them for about 10 seconds (Gah! That's it! xyz thing is changing now!), then calmly follow up (it is not respectful to do xyz. why don't we go play this game instead (redirect).)  I realize neither of those is ideal.  I like the advice to take a big breath, it's just not as satisfying, but will be better for me in the long term.  Idk how to get DH to stay in the room and not yell - he's leaving so he doesn't yell like I would, or say things he would regret.  The leaving is his form of restraint.  Again, we don't actually have kids yet, just younger siblings, babysitting, and several months of living with a 1.5 year old.

[Vindicated]

Apples,

Thanks for sharing and being so open.

I wonder if your husband is actually leaving to cool down, or if he just knows you're about to blow, and wants to save his hearing.  :)

[Caoineag]

Very well said, Apples!

Also, when hanging with people who will "just walk out of a room", there's a conundrum, especially when small kids are involved, or there is a serious issue at hand. Some people (in my direct experience) who simply walk out of a room are waiting for things to resolve, i.e., relying on someone else to resolve them. They come back and pronounce everything fine. The person unwilling to leave tiny children unattended during a problem, or willing to get in there and resolve the tech or mechanical issue, is committed to safety and resolution yet is left further burdened, thus more prone to yelp or even rant.

I am far more triggered by people who simply leave the room than I am by a person who yelps. (And as you note, yelping is completely distinct from flying into an abusive rage, and I'm trusting the title of this thread was accurate).

1) I never walk out of a room if a child is being yelled at. The protection of the child is far more important than my comfort.

I realize the thread has moved on, but I want to say that dh wouldn't walk out b/c a child is being yelled at.  Scenario is the kid(s) is/are being crazy, it's just one of those days, and they're. not. listening. or. behaving.  Both DH and I are worked up, at the end of the line, etc.  His response would be to leave the room to calm down.  My response would be to snap at them for about 10 seconds (Gah! That's it! xyz thing is changing now!), then calmly follow up (it is not respectful to do xyz. why don't we go play this game instead (redirect).)  I realize neither of those is ideal.  I like the advice to take a big breath, it's just not as satisfying, but will be better for me in the long term.  Idk how to get DH to stay in the room and not yell - he's leaving so he doesn't yell like I would, or say things he would regret.  The leaving is his form of restraint.  Again, we don't actually have kids yet, just younger siblings, babysitting, and several months of living with a 1.5 year old.

I was addressing jooniFLORisploo being triggered by those who leave rather than stay with children. I am not sure now if she was addressing you or one of us non-yellers leaving the room to avoid a yeller. If she was addressing your situation, I would say that if your husband's choice is to scream at the child or leave, I would consider it better for him to leave but it does make it harder for you if he leaves you to deal with it and you are at the end of your rope as well. I think you can't get him to stay and not yell, he has to care enough to learn to stay and not yell. Its always easier to change yourself than to change someone else.

I will say children are really good at pressing people's buttons. I never have sympathy for a yeller like after dealing with a child who has learned to manipulate a yeller.

[joonifloofeefloo]

^ I wasn't really addressing the actions of anyone here :)
I was thinking of the people in my life who leave children so the adult can feel calm and happy, even if the child is then unsafe (to the point that it's actually illegal).
If I had a sitter for my kid, I would rather they do a quick sharp yelp -or even longer- at my kid than walk away.

But this is me seeing a host of degrees in yelling that are short of abusive. And having experienced the walking away as far more detrimental, painful, and frightening. (And why I see the whole thing as subjective.)

[shelivesthedream]

I have never experienced physical violence, but there's something about yelling that sends me into instant panic mode. It was not a frequent occurrence in my house growing up - passive aggressive was more both my parents style, although they valued calm discussion. But my brother and my mother did have screaming matches when he was a teenager. Even voices raised in happiness or excitement give me a little tingle of fear before I've mentally confirmed they're not anger.

I am enormously judgemental of people who yell in anger. Maybe I'm wrong to be. But to me it says you cannot control yourself and are not capable of listening to me right now, so it's time to stop trying to communicate until you can be a human being again. It would ruin a relationship for me if you yelled at me, because I would forever be afraid you would do it again.

I was yelled at once at work. It happened to be on my last day somewhere anyway, but if it weren't I would have quit on the spot. I certainly did not reapply to work their next season. I did work experience with an important person in my industry who yelled at his assistant constantly and me a few times. I finished the placement and never contacted him again. In neither of those cases did I say anything to the teller about the yelling. I have had a struggle to learn to assert myself. I think nowadays I hope I would be able to say that their tone of voice was not acceptable, and would they please stop shouting at me and just say what the problem was so I could fix it.

I'm pretty quiet and softly spoken and renowned for having infinite patience for solving problems rather than arguing amongst my friends. I think it's fairly obvious from interacting with me that I am not going to appreciate yelling. So if you yell at me, it's game over, because you just made me have to stop myself either barfing or crying from fear. I do not want to have to experience that. Also, if I have the self-control to not barf or cry but remain reasonable, you should have the self-control to not yell.

[shelivesthedream]

I'm neither a starry eyed idealist nor hypocritical in my above statements. I don't yell and I don't fight. I've been known to take a deep breath, sigh, and give that "really?" glare. I can even get a little short when tired before the "oh, let's all calm down a bit and just talk it over" part kicks in. Honest, open communication is the key to avoiding the sorts of issues you mention. Both parties have to embrace that, but the only real difficulty is getting over some romantic notion that people should be able to read your mind. If you haven't communicated your desires, intents, frustrations, whatever, then swallow whatever wells up and realize it's your own damn fault when they fail to read your mind.

In your dinner example, there are sooooo many places where half an ounce of communication from either party would prevent getting to the point of yelling:

• They could have mentioned feeling taken for granted earlier in the week when they started feeling that way.
• They could state they've made dinner all week and ask if you can handle it tonight. Or just delegate it.
• You could state you appreciate they're trying to help, but since they've made dinner all week you have this, so why don't they go relax.
• When they are under foot, state plainly and calmly that you need to do X, could they please prepare Y (which is out of the way).
• They could have done likewise and said something calmly when you were under foot.
• They could have asked for assistance earlier in the week.
• You could have offered assistance earlier in the week.
• When they snap, you can ask what is wrong rather than immediately retaliating.
• When they snap, they could include the reason they're feeling short tempered. And you could listen.
• If you've failed like this before, you could talk about ways to prevent it happening again.

Now, if there are larger unresolved problems in play and somebody's just spoiling for a fight, none of the above is likely to happen and even if it does, the one looking for a fight will get it anyway. All couples fights are proxy wars for the big stuff. Remove the big stuff and there's no need to fight over small things unless you're just sad and petty. Anybody that can cook isn't going to break under a week of cooking. A week of cooking on top of some big, unresolved problem? Bring it on.

While our stupid animal brains may immediately go for emotional outbursts, our forebrain is able to put the brakes on that. We're humans, not feral animals. If you practice communicating to the point where it is the default option, you rarely get to the point where you need to consciously work yourself down. If it gets to that point anyway, you can exercise a little willpower. If you haven't made your needs known prior to feeling the need for an outburst, it's your own fault, so turn that outburst inward.

This. There are two people in that room. Why are you getting angry by yourself until it bursts out in yelling? If you feel frustrated they're underfoot, just say. They're right there. You can solve that problem. If we get out of the wrong side of bed, my husband and I will pre-emptively say to each other, "I'm cross today" so the they person knows and doesn't get angry if they're a bit short. I agree that some people think other people ought to read their mind (USE YOUR WORDS), but others think the problem will just magically go away and then get angry with others when it doesn't. I used to do this and get angry with myself. Now I am learning to be pre-emptively direct.

If you need to just let off feelings, you can go and do that in private. You don't need a human punch bag, or an audience. Or at the very least you can use your words and pre-emptively SAY "I really need to let off some feelings right now". Then you're not expecting people to read your mind about the nature of your yelling.

[NUF]

I've been reading the "how to talk so little kids will listen" parenting book recently and they have a whole chapter on "when parents get Angry!" ( Angry in italics).

The chapter lists a few ways of being loud but not hurtful; to use one word (CAR! OUCH!) , To give information (CATS ARE NOT FOR KICKING!), Describing (I SEE A BIG MESS!).

It also talks about how being yelled at by an angry parent, really having a beloved parent express strong anger in any way can be upsetting to children and that it's important to reconnect after the intensity of the anger has abated.

I didn't know any of this. My experience had always been of anger and yelling as a prequel to lashing out and pain, verbal or otherwise. I'm amazed by one poster's description of having their mother yell at full volume but feeling completely safe.

It sounds like there are emotionally safe ways to yell, the problem is the same as with safe driving ... nobody thinks what they're doing is unsafe. My parents would have said they were letting off steam and that we should have felt safe.

When engaging in an action that's so potentially harmful (and scaring people is extremely harmful to them and the relationship), it's important to just be really careful.

[joonifloofeefloo]

All beautifully said, NUF!

[gaja]

I've been reading the "how to talk so little kids will listen" parenting book recently and they have a whole chapter on "when parents get Angry!" ( Angry in italics).

The chapter lists a few ways of being loud but not hurtful; to use one word (CAR! OUCH!) , To give information (CATS ARE NOT FOR KICKING!), Describing (I SEE A BIG MESS!).

It also talks about how being yelled at by an angry parent, really having a beloved parent express strong anger in any way can be upsetting to children and that it's important to reconnect after the intensity of the anger has abated.

I didn't know any of this. My experience had always been of anger and yelling as a prequel to lashing out and pain, verbal or otherwise. I'm amazed by one poster's description of having their mother yell at full volume but feeling completely safe.

It sounds like there are emotionally safe ways to yell, the problem is the same as with safe driving ... nobody thinks what they're doing is unsafe. My parents would have said they were letting off steam and that we should have felt safe.

When engaging in an action that's so potentially harmful (and scaring people is extremely harmful to them and the relationship), it's important to just be really careful.

The bolded part is very important, and something that is very clear ìn all public discussions when it comes to yelling. But do most people do that when they are silently angry? Or do they think that the children aren't affected since there is no violence or yelling? As a child, it was much more scary for me when my parents were silently angry, left the room, or gave the silent treatment. When they yelled, I understood what everything was about, and I knew how to handle it. When they closed up, or left the discussion mentally or even physically, I had now way to connect with them. Being told "you have done something bad, and I so angry with you that I can't talk to you", leaves the kid in a horrible vacuum.

For me, getting DH to (loudly or silently) tell me what is wrong, why he is angry, is like puncturing a festering boil. Sure, it is not comfortable there and then, but it is much worse having to think through all kinds of scenarios in my own head. We always find a solution within a few minutes of talking/yelling, and violence has never been an option.

[A Definite Beta Guy]

If you yell and scream at people you are being abusive and threatening to get your way.  You are placing your needs and wants above others.  Your expectations of winning by bullying are wrong.  You are being an asshole.  Period.

I disagree. I raise my voice when people try to talk over me when I have the floor and have waited my turn, or push their agenda/product when I have clearly and calmly stated my disinterest. Being dismissive or disrespectful is trying to win by bullying and being an asshole, and being an asshole calmly is still being an asshole. I don't think that loudly standing up for yourself is necessarily being an asshole.

Yeah, I'm with this. I'm from the Midwest where Midwestern Nice rules: we have all sorts of extreme manipulators and passive-aggressive ninnies who think they are perfectly in the right, solely because they don't raise their voice.

Reminds me of my college friend who thought he was a more moral person, just because he went to church every Sunday.

I'd rather deal with honest yellers. Pretty sure if we all could be honest and upfront, they wouldn't feel the need to yell all that much.

I have not yelled at work, though one time I did snap briefly and used a snippy tone. It won't do any good and it doesn't matter all that much. I use what my Wife refers to as my Bill Lumbergh voice. Though for the most part, I try not to do that, either, because it's purposeless: if we've gotten to the point where I am angry with you, you are either incompetent, lazy, or have higher priorities.

There are some yellers in our company. I don't particularly care if they yell at me. Who cares? About half of people are incompetent or lazy, and I'll take a competent, hardworking jerk over a typical lazy office drone any day of the week. I routinely get bitched at by people, since I work a collections-type job. Doesn't particularly phase me.

Not that I can't yell. I have an utterly black/white personality and am a bit too self-righteous. I can yell for hours. But if I yell, it means you have horribly, horribly, horribly screwed up(in my eyes). It does not mean that the lightbulb went out.

For instance, if you want to make a batch of banana bread large enough to feed 100 people for your work, and I don't want to clean it, because I clean 90% of the dishes to begin with, and you agree to clean it, please clean your dishes when you are done. If you don't clean it, and then I have to spend 2 hours cleaning, and then make dinner, and then clean up dinner afterwards, and then it's 9:30, and your response to my questioning you not cleaning it is a combination of "oh I was tired" and "oh, I guess you don't want me to fold those shirts then," I will be extremely angry, and I might yell at you, and I will not feel bad.

If this above situation happens again, the chances I yell will be very, very high.

So, yeah, I have yelled at my wife on a handful of occasions, and very rarely do I actually feel bad about it, though I do my best to minimize it. I wouldn't care if she yells back at me (which she has on occasion), and would prefer that to a wide range of other behaviors. For instance, I would prefer she yell at me about not mowing the lawn promptly, to her not cleaning dozens of dishes. I certainly would prefer it to the regular belittlement and controlling behavior that my mother, sister, and mother-in-law all exhibit (none of whom yell, to my knowledge). I certainly would prefer to various "in the doghouse" or "cold shoulder" treatments that I hear about. I certainly would prefer it to the highly hot-headed girlfriend my best friend dates.

I certainly would prefer it to any sort of infidelity.

Re, emotional control: I am generally capable of cooling down quickly and de-escalating if need be, what with the prior public speaking training and all. It does take conscious effort and it feels quite unnatural.

The question will probably come up of whether I find yelling effective. I do not think of it terms of "effectiveness" in the moment, it's a response that I slide into too quickly when I get indignant (note: indignant, not "angry"). However, being a business person, I do look at the aftermath. It has been reasonably effective, but has served whatever purpose it may have had and should be retired. My Wife came into this relationship will all sorts of extremely poor relationship behaviors and a great deal of self-centeredness, though convinced of her own purity. My impression is that she modeled a number of behaviors after romantic comedies and her mother, and her prior boyfriends never called her out on them because they were non-assertive weenies just happy to have a girlfriend.

I've known my wife's best friend since she was 6, and her best friend let me know that in no uncertain terms that she had a big ditzy streak and could be quite self-centered.

That has massively improved. Anytime I yelled, might have provoked some unease for a brief while, but seemed to have seared enough of a message that things improved afterwards. I have to conclude that whatever normal-tone level-headed discussions occurred before-hand were insufficient for whatever reason...most likely because "stuff comes up" and "it didn't seem like that big of a deal" are easy excuses for people to lean on.


In terms of child-care, I do not currently have children. My brother-in-law is a massive yeller. I don't see any ill effects (yet), and his children are quite well-behaved. My sister-in-law is rather uninvolved and laid back and her kids throw much worse temper tantrums and are much less likely to listen. I have an extremely small sample, and am not afraid to admit that I have no idea how these kids will turn out in either case.

[omachi]

If you yell and scream at people you are being abusive and threatening to get your way.  You are placing your needs and wants above others.  Your expectations of winning by bullying are wrong.  You are being an asshole.  Period.

I disagree. I raise my voice when people try to talk over me when I have the floor and have waited my turn, or push their agenda/product when I have clearly and calmly stated my disinterest. Being dismissive or disrespectful is trying to win by bullying and being an asshole, and being an asshole calmly is still being an asshole. I don't think that loudly standing up for yourself is necessarily being an asshole.

Yeah, I'm with this. I'm from the Midwest where Midwestern Nice rules: we have all sorts of extreme manipulators and passive-aggressive ninnies who think they are perfectly in the right, solely because they don't raise their voice.

Reminds me of my college friend who thought he was a more moral person, just because he went to church every Sunday.

I'd rather deal with honest yellers. Pretty sure if we all could be honest and upfront, they wouldn't feel the need to yell all that much.

I know the type, but don't understand the why of being loud to "stand up for yourself". You're just making it harder to distinguish who is the jerk. Plenty of ways to stand up for one's self without yelling, and having two people trying to shout each other down so they can make their point, even if one person "waited their turn" isn't conducive to any sort of communication.

If we're talking work environment, the person running the meeting where this could possibly come up needs to be in control enough to make sure it isn't a shouting match. Not really that hard. And yes, I've worked with plenty of east coasters whose first inclination is not to let people get a word in edgewise. Establish a set of rules for the meeting and a visual cue that people need to yield if you have to. Hand out reprimands as needed. Don't just reinforce that loud is the way to get the floor.

Also, it isn't an either/or situation. I'd rather deal with honest non-yellers than dishonest people or people that yell. Both the yellers and dishonest are unpleasant, just in different ways.

[trollwithamustache]

Reading the range of responses, I came to think it might be informative if people gave us their (general) age to go with the response. One would expect more maturity and self-control as one ages.

Beyond the mid-fifties, I suspect quite a bit of yelling is actually a mis-calibration for hearing loss. (at least for office-yelling in an industrial setting)

[shelivesthedream]

It also talks about how being yelled at by an angry parent, really having a beloved parent express strong anger in any way can be upsetting to children and that it's important to reconnect after the intensity of the anger has abated.

I didn't know any of this. My experience had always been of anger and yelling as a prequel to lashing out and pain, verbal or otherwise. I'm amazed by one poster's description of having their mother yell at full volume but feeling completely safe.

It sounds like there are emotionally safe ways to yell, the problem is the same as with safe driving ... nobody thinks what they're doing is unsafe. My parents would have said they were letting off steam and that we should have felt safe.

When engaging in an action that's so potentially harmful (and scaring people is extremely harmful to them and the relationship), it's important to just be really careful.

Thank you for this insight, NUF, since I think my story was the one you were referring to here. I know that I never felt unsafe from my parents yelling, but I never really analyzed why that was the case, except that I somehow "knew" that they was not going to hurt me and that their anger wasn't a reflection on me or an expression of lack of love. Now that you've said that, it stands out sharply to me that every conflict we had like that was followed immediately upon resolution with affirmations that we were all a family, and loved each other, and that volume was just one of many ways that people you cared about might express their feelings. I guess I was successfully reassured.

On a similar note, I do believe walking away can be a positive way to deal with a yeller. However, you can't just leave. You need to tell them calmly but firmly that you will not be yelled at and you are going to leave and give them some time to calm down, and that they are to come and find you when they are ready to have a conversation. Just walking away is a bit passive-aggressive and power-play ish. Taking yourself out of the situation until they are ready to be reasonable is an excellent way to assert yourself.

[LeRainDrop]

On a similar note, I do believe walking away can be a positive way to deal with a yeller. However, you can't just leave. You need to tell them calmly but firmly that you will not be yelled at and you are going to leave and give them some time to calm down, and that they are to come and find you when they are ready to have a conversation. Just walking away is a bit passive-aggressive and power-play ish. Taking yourself out of the situation until they are ready to be reasonable is an excellent way to assert yourself.

I totally agree with this, as do like all the self-help books I've been reading!

[joonifloofeefloo]

^ Me too.

I'm uncomfortable with the word "reasonable", though. Often a "yeller" is being reasonable. It seems more accurate to say, "...until the person is talking at a volume I feel comfortable with." (This also shifts things from an objective idea to a subjective experience, which is an effective element in nonviolent communication.)

[prognastat]

This is actually something my wife and I differ on quite a bit.

During an discussion or argument I generally speak faster and maybe slightly louder, but nothing near what i would consider yelling. My wife calls it yelling or raising my voice. However, I do the exact same thing when I am talking to someone about something that interests me and I am excited about the thing we are talking about. The only link is passion about the conversation wether it is excitement or irritation.

Growing up I have always had animated discussions with my family and we enjoy passionately discussing things so this is completely normal to me, but my wife considers it an intimidation tactic. The thing that actually makes me annoyed is this being spun in such a way.

[shelivesthedream]

This is actually something my wife and I differ on quite a bit.

During an discussion or argument I generally speak faster and maybe slightly louder, but nothing near what i would consider yelling. My wife calls it yelling or raising my voice. However, I do the exact same thing when I am talking to someone about something that interests me and I am excited about the thing we are talking about. The only link is passion about the conversation wether it is excitement or irritation.

Growing up I have always had animated discussions with my family and we enjoy passionately discussing things so this is completely normal to me, but my wife considers it an intimidation tactic. The thing that actually makes me annoyed is this being spun in such a way.

Can you not hear a tone of voice difference in yourself between excitement and irritation? It's absolutely not just volume that makes something yelling - it's also tone. If you said "Hurray!" in a loud angry tone, I would be able to tell that you were not just excited and passionate. If you said "Damn!" in a loud, happy tone, I would be able to tell that you were not angry.

[prognastat]

Growing up I have always had animated discussions with my family and we enjoy passionately discussing things so this is completely normal to me, but my wife considers it an intimidation tactic. The thing that actually makes me annoyed is this being spun in such a way.

I used to feel irritation exactly like this when I ran into this kind of situation! Why can't you TELL that my INTENT isn't to intimidate you, why are you being so sensitive?! The problem is that intention means jack shit, and you're responsible for how you come across to the other person, even if they're misreading you. As you can probably tell from reading the rest of this post, people bring an incredible amount of their own experiences into how they parse communication (even just reading tone) and that's not going to change.

Have you sat down and had a conversation with your wife about this? Something that's helped me in my relationships is finding out whether or not they're able to take it on faith that I'm not trying to intimidate them. If they are, I can relax a little and not be so very guarded about not raising my voice, and they can feel more comfortable letting me know if I'm crossing a line - it's a place to start compromising. Sometimes people just aren't able to take that on faith though, and in those cases a better compromise would be her giving you clear parameters for what acceptable communication is for her, you sticking to them, and both of you agreeing on ways that one or both of you can put a hard stop on any interactions that feel like they're going outside that box.

A wall you may run up against here is again that you're probably physically bigger and stronger than her. You can't just wish that away if she feels physically intimidated, no matter how much she emotionally trusts you. Be prepared for that.

We have talked about this and though we aren't always successful we have come to an agreement that discussing an issue in the heat of the moment doesn't lead to productive conversations and that we are better off giving it a day and attempting to have the conversation the next day instead when both of us are prepared, expecting the conversation and going in to it as calm as possible.

And also though I agree that there has to be compromise I also feel that trying to control the way someone speaks can be quite manipulative/controlling itself. This is not a response directly to you freshstash and more of a general response to some of the sentiments brought up in the thread in general.

[prognastat]

This is actually something my wife and I differ on quite a bit.

During an discussion or argument I generally speak faster and maybe slightly louder, but nothing near what i would consider yelling. My wife calls it yelling or raising my voice. However, I do the exact same thing when I am talking to someone about something that interests me and I am excited about the thing we are talking about. The only link is passion about the conversation wether it is excitement or irritation.

Growing up I have always had animated discussions with my family and we enjoy passionately discussing things so this is completely normal to me, but my wife considers it an intimidation tactic. The thing that actually makes me annoyed is this being spun in such a way.

Can you not hear a tone of voice difference in yourself between excitement and irritation? It's absolutely not just volume that makes something yelling - it's also tone. If you said "Hurray!" in a loud angry tone, I would be able to tell that you were not just excited and passionate. If you said "Damn!" in a loud, happy tone, I would be able to tell that you were not angry.

I'm sure my tone is likely slightly different between the two, but the volume and speed aren't different. I don't think anyone has the right to dictate how I can and can't feel about something and tell me that though I am not speaking in a way wholly unusual to me is not ok because it is evident that I am irritated at something. I feel that saying hey we both have different ways of communicating, but you have to communicate my way has a very strong likelihood of being a power play itself.

The example being brought up earlier of someone just walking out I would consider to be much the same, if it is done explaining hey I don't think we are getting anywhere and I need a moment that is reasonable, but simply walking out without such an explanation would definitely be a power play.

[Hash Brown]

I view yelling at someone as a lack or loss of control, akin to getting slobbering drunk at a work function. To me, it would be embarrassing. It would take a lot of effort for someone to provoke me to the point were I would start screaming at them, anything more than a 'Hey' or similar to get their attention.

If you think you are going to win an argument by screaming, you're wrong. I may not argue with you but it's because I've lost respect for you and consider it a waste of my time.

When I was about 15 I started thinking that adults looked ridiculous when they were yelling at each other or at their kids.  I didn't want to be a yelling adult who some 15 year-old was snickering at, so I stopped yelling. 

[Poundwise]

I never yelled before I had kids, and my husband and I don't yell at each other. However, I'm afraid I do yell at my kids. They have "executive functioning" problems as do I, although over time I have learned to manage my issues.

I have mixed feelings about yelling.  Sometimes it's the only way I can get my kids' attention, because they are so spaced out, and I don't always have the capacity to go to where they are.  But I'm not crazy about it as a strategy, and if I find situations which frequently lead to anger and yelling, I try to prevent them.  For instance, we used to live in an apartment above cranky neighbors, and I used to have to yell at kids to stop running or jumping.  I hated having to do that, so eventually we moved to a single family home.

Basically, I find I yell under the following circumstances:
- if I need instant attention/obedience (such as kid about to do something dangerous).  Sometimes my middle son gets upset because I yell when he is doing something like carrying a tilted plate or cup about to spill; but  if I ask him in a regular voice he will not heed me in time.
- third time "wake up" voice for kids who ignored first two requests in regular voice
- attempt to scare kid straight as a last resort when child seems to have no concern about serious consequences of an action; but I feel bad if it has to get to this point.
- when I am genuinely angry (such as when older kids have hurt younger kids or put them into danger). Fortunately does not happen often.

Some people use "yelling" to refer to use of anger in a voice, regardless of volume. This annoys me... if you are doing things to anger people, take the consequences! While of course nobody likes anger to be directed at them, the real issue is whether the anger is deserved, and whether the person expressing the anger has previously used other strategies to resolve a conflict. I used to try not to get angry in interactions with other adults, but over time I realize that it has its uses in conflict as some people seem to respond to little else.  To make sure I am properly calibrated, I look at frequency... if I am having angry interactions with only one or two people, it might be them; if this is an issue with several people, it might be me.

[Apples]

Some people use "yelling" to refer to use of anger in a voice, regardless of volume. This annoys me... if you are doing things to anger people, take the consequences! While of course nobody likes anger to be directed at them, the real issue is whether the anger is deserved, and whether the person expressing the anger has previously used other strategies to resolve a conflict. I used to try not to get angry in interactions with other adults, but over time I realize that it has its uses in conflict as some people seem to respond to little else.  To make sure I am properly calibrated, I look at frequency... if I am having angry interactions with only one or two people, it might be them; if this is an issue with several people, it might be me.

I've been thinking about this topic a lot since last week.  Yelling when angry isn't always the best choice, but it can be useful.  I have a coworker who responds to either you getting in his face and speaking in angry tones, or yelling.  Seeing as I'm about 4" shorter than him, I go for the yelling.  I just did it on Saturday, and it was effective.  Corrective measures wouldn't do it, and he needed to change what he was doing.

Yelling the whole way through an argument is definitely a problem.  But is yelling for less than 1 minute or 30 seconds only occasionally a problem?  If it gets out the anger and moves you into solid discussion/argument?  If both parties are ok with it?

My family does the quick yelling thing, so I'm used to it.  My DH's family never yells, and goes for passive aggressive battles of will and pouting.  They rarely discuss anything.  They also use insulting each other as a way to show love (my family does a bit of this, but they do like 10x more of it), which I find really disrespectful.  Fortunately DH isn't often passive aggressive, but he won't yell either.  He leaves the room for a few minutes in order to collect himself.  So I think yelling isn't all as bad as some on this thread have made it out to be.  Still not the go-to choice.  But not the worst.

I just watched an episode of The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt where Kimmy yells, in anger, at Titus.  No one is scared of her.  She doesn't insult or intimidate.  No biting remarks.  She doesn't rage.  She just realizes her friend has been lying to her for a while, and actively sabotaging her.  So she yells at him that he's a jerk and how could he do this and etc.  I can't find a clip to link to, but if anyone else saw that, do you have thoughts on it?  B/c generally I thought it was fine and acceptable.

Note that "yelling" is different from all out rages, yelling insults, intimidating, or anything physical.  You can do insults, intimidation, and physical harm without yelling.