Author Topic: OT: Judging Others  (Read 75396 times)

fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #100 on: April 09, 2014, 05:10:50 PM »
The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own WHITE PEOPLE)
So you really do believe that white people are simply superior and that is why they are successful? You aren't even ashamed of being a white supremacist, you're actually going to admit it in public?

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Forcing them into a mixture of half and half prevents them from realizing their true  potential.
Straight up white supremacist bullshit.

You seem to be looking for racism.
Also - If you knew anything thing about fresh milk, you'd realize that the color (real cream is yellowish) rises to the top.  Homogenization makes it all looks white.

fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #101 on: April 09, 2014, 05:18:55 PM »
Black Americans (as a group example) hold themselves down by shunning education.
And you're telling me you're not racist?

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They tease and shun oreos who want to make something of themselves.
Because ambition = "white on the inside", right? I get it! (Super racist!)

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They play the race card, crying about how much harder they have it, and demand special treatment.  They complain about slavery, but they're the ones who invented it.
HOLY FUCK MY RACIST-OMETER EXPLODED.

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I don't accept special treatment
OTOH, white men get special treatment whether they ask for it or not.

1.  Noting cultural traits is not racist.  It's just non-delusional.
2.  Oreo is a derogatory term used by black people against black people.  The racism is theirs.
3.  How many times has Obama played the race card to quiet his opponents?  More than all other presidents combined.
4.  Lets see some data.  I'll start with U of Michigan giving 12 admission points for a perfect SAT, and 20 for not being white.

daverobev

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #102 on: April 09, 2014, 05:26:18 PM »
Is Bill Cosby racist? Saw this on imgur the other day.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/cosby.asp

Letj

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #103 on: April 09, 2014, 06:17:57 PM »
"I can't be racist, I was born with congenital defects". Sorry dude, that's not how logic works. Being born with congenital defects surely sucks ass, but it doesn't give you a "get out of racism free" pass. Also, try being a black woman born with congenital defects.

The point you seem to be missing, when you're arguing against "special treatment" for minorities, is that overwhelmingly, it's white men who get the special treatment, as should be obvious from a cursory glance at reality.

What a bunch of rubbish!  Black Americans (as a group example) hold themselves down by shunning education.  They tease and shun oreos who want to make something of themselves.  They play the race card, crying about how much harder they have it, and demand special treatment.  They complain about slavery, but they're the ones who invented it.

Demanding special treatment because of your race or sex is racist or sexist.   Demanding equal treatment is not.

I don't accept special treatment, and treat people equally regardless of sex, color, or disability.  Any person can choose to lift themselves up, if they have the pride to do so.  Likewise, they can choose to whine while they hold themselves down.  Blaming it on an *unfair advantage* falls under the latter category.

You are obviously so narrow minded that I wouldn't even bother to enlighten you. Suffice it to say that people born in poverty with parents who lack education and often live in bad neighborhoods have a hard time escaping that situation. Most never will. It's a fact of life in almost any society.  It's human nature; people learn what they live. Those who have escaped those circumstances could point to specific intervention or influence that has led them out of their situation. Minorities live in areas where they are cut off from the rest of America in largely poor urban ghettos in which the cycle of ignorance and poverty is perpetuated.  American society is unique in that it does not allow people born into those circumstances to easily move to the middle class because of the apartheid system of education and how education is funded.  If you compare America's peers such as Canada you will find far more social mobility because education is a leveler.  However, in inner cities, the schools are poorly funded because they rely mostly on local dollars. However, this is only part of the problem; the other issue is that these kids are surrounded by losers like themselves.  It's remains a fact that poor children do better when they are integrated into schools that draw from various economic backgrounds to include middle class and upper middle class because they can see values that lead to success.

On another note, I have seen first hand where white are advantaged during the years I have lived in this medium size southern city. I work for a mega corp where the jobs go to people who know each other either because they grew up together or went to the same schools. Once they get into management, they look out for each others' family, friends and children. More often than not, their children are hired into the company as soon as they finish college. These are invariable white people.

As for judging, I think society has become too accepting of certain behaviors to the point where just about everything that's not outright illegal is considered normal and criticism makes you intolerant and could get you ostracized.  People are afraid to come off as judgmental but I think judging others can be positive for society. Judging others' behavior can force someone to take a look at themselves and change or modify the behavior. Someone took offense to the use of the term fatties; unless you have a glandular problem, you are responsible for your weight. It's simple math; if you consume more than you expend, you will get fat. As a society we should call out gluttony.  While eating habits are formed in childhood, it's not impossible to change although I recognize that the legacy your parent left you is hard to change. Isn't this forum all about judging? Why are we on this board if we didn't think MMM has a better alternative to the over consumption in society? Do we not judge others for the overconsumption?

warfreak2

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #104 on: April 09, 2014, 06:40:38 PM »
Someone took offense to the use of the term fatties; unless you have a glandular problem, you are responsible for your weight. It's simple math; if you consume more than you expend, you will get fat. As a society we should call out gluttony.
It's an insult, a slur, it contains a negative judgement. If somebody knows that their diet and exercise regime are responsible for their weight (although unusual things like glandular problems are hardly the only biological factors), then it's their own decision and they aren't going to inconvenience or harm anyone more than they inconvenience or harm themselves, if at all. The judgement that everyone should want to be slim is useless at best.

I want to eat lots of delicious cake, and I'm fortunate that my metabolism permits it without my belly protruding. However, it would be rather rude for me to say to somebody else, "better not have that slice of cake, you'll be fat" as if I am somehow more aware of the effects on their own body than they are; or as if I am somehow better than them at balancing their own preferences for eating cake and being slim.

Now, if somebody probably doesn't know about the effects of diet and exercise, then we can educate them in a non-judgmental way; and we do, when they are children, for instance. But offering your opinion to people who have surely heard the same opinion many times before, is not going to help anybody.

fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #105 on: April 09, 2014, 06:58:09 PM »
Suffice it to say that people born in poverty with parents who lack education and often live in bad neighborhoods have a hard time escaping that situation. Most never will.

This is true, and yet I escaped.  Much of my "help yourself" attitude comes from watching those who didn't even try.

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American society is unique in that it does not allow people born into those circumstances to easily move to the middle class because of the apartheid system of education and how education is funded.

BS - Go to India if you want to see people held back.  Even the poorest inner-city American is worlds above the untouchables.

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It's remains a fact that poor children do better when they are integrated into schools that draw from various economic backgrounds to include middle class and upper middle class because they can see values that lead to success.

Quite true, regardless of race.  Poor people tend to hold themselves down rather than lift themselves up...but is being a minority a symptom or cause?  Fresh immigrants tend to do very well regardless of skin color.

Have you ever considered that providing scholarships based on race is the equivalent to providing work bonuses based on race?  The minorities wouldn't work harder because they'd be assured of a bonus.  The whites wouldn't work harder because they'd get screwed out of it regardless.

Providing scholarships for a perfect SAT score or GPA, on the other hand, would encourage kids of all races to work hard. 

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On another note, I have seen first hand where white are advantaged during the years I have lived in this medium size southern city. I work for a mega corp where the jobs go to people who know each other either because they grew up together or went to the same schools. Once they get into management, they look out for each others' family, friends and children. More often than not, their children are hired into the company as soon as they finish college. These are invariable white people.

Nepotism is universal, yet only condemned when it is done by white people.  Mormons hire Mormons, blacks hire blacks, Latinos hire Latinos, etc.  Rather than complaining, shouldn't minorities be starting businesses of their own?

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Someone took offense to the use of the term fatties; unless you have a glandular problem, you are responsible for your weight. It's simple math; if you consume more than you expend, you will get fat. As a society we should call out gluttony.  While eating habits are formed in childhood, it's not impossible to change although I recognize that the legacy your parent left you is hard to change.

The same logic applies to climbing out of the slums, regardless of your race. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 07:47:52 PM by fixer-upper »

Luck better Skill

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #106 on: April 10, 2014, 05:52:20 AM »
On another note, I have seen first hand where white are advantaged during the years I have lived in this medium size southern city. I work for a mega corp where the jobs go to people who know each other either because they grew up together or went to the same schools. Once they get into management, they look out for each others' family, friends and children. More often than not, their children are hired into the company as soon as they finish college. These are invariable white people.

  What you say does happen.  I see it more in small business.  But it is not so black and white.  The Mega corporations I have worked with like to have a diversified workforce, at least a picture of one, or a defense against affirmative action law suits.  Those corporations are very happy to hire in a mixed workforce and promote non-white men up the ladder.  There are pros and cons on both sides of the coin.

edit corps to corporations, oops.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 06:30:29 AM by Luck better Skill »

KBecks

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #107 on: April 10, 2014, 06:26:21 AM »


 Those corps are very happy to hire in a mixed workforce and promote non-white men up the ladder.  There are pros and cons on both sides of the coin.

I think you mean non-white men and women.  Duh.

See, that "duh" is me getting judgey

Luck better Skill

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #108 on: April 10, 2014, 06:39:42 AM »


 Those corps are very happy to hire in a mixed workforce and promote non-white men up the ladder.  There are pros and cons on both sides of the coin.

I think you mean non-white men and women.  Duh.

See, that "duh" is me getting judgey

  The and women is your add.  I have seen women (all races) and minority men promoted/hired over white men.
  In the 1930's, 40's, and 50's being a white man was a tremendous advantage.  We live in the 22nd century.  It is not so clear cut.  Look at the changes in our society.  Sports, Hollywood, business, housing, education. 
  If I did not answer your question please clarify what you were asking.

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #109 on: April 10, 2014, 07:00:45 AM »


 Those corps are very happy to hire in a mixed workforce and promote non-white men up the ladder.  There are pros and cons on both sides of the coin.

I think you mean non-white men and women.  Duh.

See, that "duh" is me getting judgey

  The and women is your add.  I have seen women (all races) and minority men promoted/hired over white men.
  In the 1930's, 40's, and 50's being a white man was a tremendous advantage.  We live in the 22nd century.  It is not so clear cut.  Look at the changes in our society.  Sports, Hollywood, business, housing, education. 
  If I did not answer your question please clarify what you were asking.

I think that she was referencing the fact that what started us on this tangent is someone claiming a black woman is economically advantaged over a white man, so clearly your comment should add women too.

KBecks' comment was sarcastic.
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matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2014, 07:13:39 AM »
So far I hear a great deal of judgement about race and little to back that judgement up other than anecdotes.

fixer-upper do you have anything other than your bias to rely on for your opinion? Do you have proof of anything you've said?

Do you have proof that black people shun education?

And to tie all this in with the topic - given your expressed views and self avowed social darwinism it's getting mighty easy to judge your statements. I still haven't seen anything overtly racist other than your easy grouping of people into buckets that fit your world view.

And you still haven't answered my question. What data do you have to back up your statement that a black woman has economic advantages to a white man?

If you can't answer these things...


arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #111 on: April 10, 2014, 07:22:21 AM »
Interesting and relevant article from The Atlantic: The Culture of Shut Up
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rocksinmyhead

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #112 on: April 10, 2014, 07:36:33 AM »
1.  Noting cultural traits is not racist.  It's just non-delusional.

I still haven't seen anything overtly racist other than your easy grouping of people into buckets that fit your world view.

here's a question for all of you... (although I otherwise very much agree with your posts, matchewed, and am curious to see how he answers your questions): what do you think it means for an individual to be "racist"? genuinely curious, maybe I am thinking about it wrong.

this definition makes sense to me:

rac·ist
ˈrāsist/Submit
noun
1.
a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another.
synonyms:   racial bigot, racialist, xenophobe, chauvinist, supremacist More
(racially) discriminatory, racialist, prejudiced, bigoted
adjective
noun: racist; plural noun: racists; adjective: racist
1.
having or showing the belief that a particular race is superior to another.
"we are investigating complaints about racist abuse at the club"

so, fixer-upper, I don't see how "racist" can even be a derogatory term to you. I mean, those are literally your beliefs, things you believe to be correct. why are you so resistant and defensive to me calling your beliefs racist? I don't get it. if you think black people are inferior to white people, I don't see how you could be offended by being called racist.

BS - Go to India if you want to see people held back.  Even the poorest inner-city American is worlds above the untouchables.

okay, so American society is NOT unique. but saying "it sucks worse in India" != "America is just fine".

Nepotism is universal, yet only condemned when it is done by white people.  Mormons hire Mormons, blacks hire blacks, Latinos hire Latinos, etc.  Rather than complaining, shouldn't minorities be starting businesses of their own?

nepotism certainly isn't desirable and admirable (though it may be part of human nature) regardless of which group is perpetrating it. the point is that it's much more valuable to white people than it is to any of these other groups. white people started out on top (at least in American society) basically because of historical uses of force, and nepotism is what allows us to stay there. honestly, if there were no nepotism among any groups (again, human nature so it is hard to fight, but IMO worth trying), I think society and the economy would function more efficiently since people would reach their roles in society based on actual merit. that's what I'm aiming for.

It's an insult, a slur, it contains a negative judgement.

one of these things is not like the other... I'm actually comfortable with negatively judging someone whose poor diet and sedentary lifestyle has led to excessive weight gain. excluding those who have some kind of thyroid problem or whatever, everyone should be able to maintain a relatively healthy weight through reasonable diet and exercise. I run five days a week and do three hours of yoga, that's time-consuming and requires a sacrifice of not doing other things with that time. I eat and drink less than I would if eating and drinking had no consequences. yes, not everyone's metabolism is the same, and not everyone's healthy weight is the same, but I'm pretty sure "obese" is no one's healthy weight. on the other hand, I think it's cruel and unproductive to call someone a "fatty." what's the point, other than to be a jerk?


thanks for the link, arebelspy... great article.

matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #113 on: April 10, 2014, 07:46:19 AM »
I don't think he's said anything overtly racist because he hasn't said white people are superior nor that black people are inferior. His arguments have been centered around culture. In fact one point he made was that immigrants sometimes succeed quite well in this country, that blanket statement would cover immigrants of all races.

That's why I'm more accusing him of social darwinism. Now social darwinism can be racist, but it doesn't have to be. It can be taken with the view of a sort of regardless of what race you are you just didn't try hard enough. I still don't agree with social darwinism. And think that there have been and still are institutionalized discriminatory policies in our societies which have been in place for decades. Trying to counteract these policies with things like affirmative action is a good thing and a small step. Trying to discredit policies like that by not acknowledging that our systems have been and are steeped in discrimination and that anything which is designed to counteract those systems is suddenly the racist thing is either disingenuous or ignorance.

So given the definition you've outlined I do not think he has met all that criteria. I still do not agree with him and am actively trying to move this discussion to something that has a bit more meat to it than people standing on their particular hills and shouting what color the sky is to them. "My Belief" "No My Belief" is a pretty crappy discussion to partake in.


daverobev

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #114 on: April 10, 2014, 09:14:59 AM »
Interesting and relevant article from The Atlantic: The Culture of Shut Up

Yup, that's what I'd say, if only I was eloquent!

warfreak2

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #115 on: April 10, 2014, 12:29:22 PM »
I don't think he's said anything overtly racist

Black Americans (as a group example) hold themselves down by shunning education.

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They tease and shun oreos who want to make something of themselves.

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They play the race card, crying about how much harder they have it, and demand special treatment.  They complain about slavery, but they're the ones who invented it.

Oh, and:
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[...] from an  evolutionary standpoint.  The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own) are the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species.  Forcing them into a mixture of half and half prevents them from realizing their true  potential.

Even if the rest of that bullshit doesn't trigger your racism detectors, if you think blaming black people for slavery isn't overtly racist, then what is?

GuitarStv

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #116 on: April 10, 2014, 12:39:04 PM »
Jesus, what kind of Mississippi Burning shit did I just websurf into?


If there's one thing that my life has led me to believe it's that people are all basically the same.

Everyone wants to fuck, eat, drink, and breathe.  Everyone is capable of being a tremendous asshole at times, just as everyone is capable of being a saint.  Often times people who amass a lot of power/money come down on the assholish side of things in efforts to amass more power/money . . . often times the poorest end up doing bad things in an effort to take power/money away from those who are richer.

There has yet to have been a convincing argument I've heard for the necessity to demean someone who is of a different race, religion, sex, sexual orientation than you.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 12:46:53 PM by GuitarStv »

matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #117 on: April 10, 2014, 12:42:08 PM »
I don't think he's said anything overtly racist

Black Americans (as a group example) hold themselves down by shunning education.

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They tease and shun oreos who want to make something of themselves.

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They play the race card, crying about how much harder they have it, and demand special treatment.  They complain about slavery, but they're the ones who invented it.

Oh, and:
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[...] from an  evolutionary standpoint.  The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own) are the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species.  Forcing them into a mixture of half and half prevents them from realizing their true  potential.

Even if the rest of that bullshit doesn't trigger your racism detectors, if you think blaming black people for slavery isn't overtly racist, then what is?

Read the rest of what I've stated from your quote. Given the definition of racist as believing that a race is superior to another, I do not think fixer-upper is racist. Bigoted yes, racist no.

daverobev

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #118 on: April 10, 2014, 12:58:48 PM »
We all came from black people way back. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#History

I would appreciate less name-calling, more debate, as this discussion is pretty much just a flame war now.

"UR MUM" etc.

dragoncar

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #119 on: April 10, 2014, 01:02:46 PM »
I don't think he's said anything overtly racist

Black Americans (as a group example) hold themselves down by shunning education.

Quote
They tease and shun oreos who want to make something of themselves.

Quote
They play the race card, crying about how much harder they have it, and demand special treatment.  They complain about slavery, but they're the ones who invented it.

Oh, and:
Quote
[...] from an  evolutionary standpoint.  The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own) are the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species.  Forcing them into a mixture of half and half prevents them from realizing their true  potential.

Even if the rest of that bullshit doesn't trigger your racism detectors, if you think blaming black people for slavery isn't overtly racist, then what is?

Read the rest of what I've stated from your quote. Given the definition of racist as believing that a race is superior to another, I do not think fixer-upper is racist. Bigoted yes, racist no.

I've only been in and out of this thread but I definitelyissed the point where someone started being racist?  Which particular comment or phase was racist?

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #120 on: April 10, 2014, 01:17:12 PM »
How can it be that no one has yet quoted the Ultimate Righteous Dude? I aspire to this ideal, but I rarely achieve it:

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

Of course, this worldview says there is plenty of judging to be done, just not by us.

Russ

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #121 on: April 10, 2014, 01:25:21 PM »
How can it be that no one has yet quoted the Ultimate Righteous Dude?

this guy?


« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 01:40:46 PM by Russ »

warfreak2

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #122 on: April 10, 2014, 01:27:14 PM »
Read the rest of what I've stated from your quote. Given the definition of racist as believing that a race is superior to another, I do not think fixer-upper is racist. Bigoted yes, racist no.
I read it. If your definition of racism doesn't include "blaming black people for slavery" then your definition is simply not fit for purpose. Tell me: if a gang of thugs systematically lynches African Americans, is that racist enough for you to call them racist, or does it depend on what exactly their privately-held beliefs are?

But at the very least, his explanation for why white men are very disproportionately economically successful, is "the cream rises to the top", i.e. they are superior. So it meets your broken definition, anyway.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #123 on: April 10, 2014, 01:31:47 PM »
But at the very least, his explanation for why white men are very disproportionately economically successful, is "the cream rises to the top", i.e. they are superior. So it meets your broken definition, anyway.

I agree with you, but I think what matchewed is saying is that fixer-upper believes black Americans are culturally inferior to white Americans, since he also stated that immigrants of minority races are not inferior to white people. personally, I think that's splitting hairs, but whatever.

matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #124 on: April 10, 2014, 01:48:57 PM »
Read the rest of what I've stated from your quote. Given the definition of racist as believing that a race is superior to another, I do not think fixer-upper is racist. Bigoted yes, racist no.
I read it. If your definition of racism doesn't include "blaming black people for slavery" then your definition is simply not fit for purpose. Tell me: if a gang of thugs systematically lynches African Americans, is that racist enough for you to call them racist, or does it depend on what exactly their privately-held beliefs are?

But at the very least, his explanation for why white men are very disproportionately economically successful, is "the cream rises to the top", i.e. they are superior. So it meets your broken definition, anyway.

Actually I'd define that as a hate crime but whatever, you seem to have your outrage machine flowing quite well and are directing your frustration at the important parts. Thanks for helping ensure the conversation maintained it's current trajectory. I guess there was no stopping that.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #125 on: April 10, 2014, 02:17:47 PM »
The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own WHITE PEOPLE)
So you really do believe that white people are simply superior and that is why they are successful? You aren't even ashamed of being a white supremacist, you're actually going to admit it in public?

Warfreak2, with your edits to fixer-upper's quote, it seems you are trying to put words in fixer-upper's mouth.  Of course if one is  allowed to change another's words, one can "prove" anything.  Or are you claiming that "you know what he meant?"

Take fixer-upper's quote in it's original form: "The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own) are the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species."  One can debate whether "the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species", or even "those who rise to the top on their own" is the best definition of the "cream of our society".  But to infer that a support of self-reliance equates to racism?  Again, not unless one claims "I know what he meant."

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #126 on: April 10, 2014, 02:25:24 PM »
The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own WHITE PEOPLE)
So you really do believe that white people are simply superior and that is why they are successful? You aren't even ashamed of being a white supremacist, you're actually going to admit it in public?

Warfreak2, with your edits to fixer-upper's quote, it seems you are trying to put words in fixer-upper's mouth.  Of course if one is  allowed to change another's words, one can "prove" anything.  Or are you claiming that "you know what he meant?"

Take fixer-upper's quote in it's original form: "The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own) are the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species."  One can debate whether "the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species", or even "those who rise to the top on their own" is the best definition of the "cream of our society".  But to infer that a support of self-reliance equates to racism?  Again, not unless one claims "I know what he meant."

I think it needs to be taken in context with the rest of fixer-upper's comments. he's stated multiple times that black people have it easier than white people in the U.S. today, despite acknowledging that black people have worse outcomes (income, educational attainment, etc.). to me, it seems obvious to infer from that that by "those that rise to the top on their own" he means white people, since based on his own statements, any black people that do rise to the top didn't do it on their own, it was because of affirmative action and the "advantage" that being black bestows on an individual.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2014, 02:35:38 PM »
Warfreak2, with your edits to fixer-upper's quote, it seems you are trying to put words in fixer-upper's mouth.  Of course if one is  allowed to change another's words, one can "prove" anything.  Or are you claiming that "you know what he meant?"

Take fixer-upper's quote in it's original form: "The cream of our society (those who rise to the top on their own) are the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species."  One can debate whether "the ones who provide the greatest advancement for us as a species", or even "those who rise to the top on their own" is the best definition of the "cream of our society".  But to infer that a support of self-reliance equates to racism?  Again, not unless one claims "I know what he meant."
Of course, if you are allowed to change the context of his words, you can make them mean different things. We are talking about economic advantages; specifically, FU's claim that white men are economically disadvantaged compared to black women. It's simply a fact that, economically, white men are disproportionately successful; according to FU, that's not because white men are advantaged, but because they "rise to the top" deservedly.

It's only "support of self-reliance" if you accept the (racist) premise that white people's disproportionate success is due to their superior self-reliance. Which FU claims.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #128 on: April 10, 2014, 03:56:08 PM »
Seems we have different interpretations of what fixer-upper is saying.  Could be that I'm being too charitable, or others are seeing things that just aren't there.  Daverobev has made some observations worth considering also.

My (perhaps charitable, perhaps accurate) reading is that fixer-upper believes "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race[, sex, disability, etc.] is to stop discriminating on the basis of race[, sex, disability, etc.]."  That approach may or may not be workable, but it is a defensible position.  It's also an assailable position, so we could could actually debate ideas without ad hominem attacks.

Of course, we could also let fixer-upper expound on his own statements (even more than he has already), rather than parse them for him, but what fun would that be? ;)

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #129 on: April 10, 2014, 04:03:47 PM »
Of course, we could also let fixer-upper expound on his own statements (even more than he has already), rather than parse them for him, but what fun would that be? ;)

hey, I'm ready and waiting!

I hope my description of his (implied, in my interpretation) beliefs as racist is not what you mean by an ad hominem attack. I didn't think that's what I was doing. It's not that he's a bad person, or that he's white (hey, I am too! go figure!). It's that his statements of belief fulfilled the definition of racism. I'll definitely accept the possibility that I misinterpreted his beliefs, though... but you're right, we would need him to clarify.

This has been an interesting case study of judgment in action ;)

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #130 on: April 10, 2014, 04:56:01 PM »
This guy blames black people for slavery, but you think his position might be defensible? You need clarification before calling him racist?

Black Americans [...] complain about slavery, but they're the ones who invented it.

I'm sorry, really, are you saying that we should proceed with caution, because this is conceivably not racist?

I'm astounded that this is tolerated, let alone defended. He's practically wearing a white dunce cap with eyeholes.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 04:57:32 PM by warfreak2 »

Luck better Skill

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #131 on: April 10, 2014, 04:58:24 PM »
I think that she was referencing the fact that what started us on this tangent is someone claiming a black woman is economically advantaged over a white man, so clearly your comment should add women too.

KBecks' comment was sarcastic.

I misunderstood the sarcasm.  A black woman would face different challenges than a white man.  I would not consider either economically advantaged based on race or color.

Luck better Skill

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #132 on: April 10, 2014, 05:05:41 PM »
  There were some earlier comments on how helping a friend get a job helps whites more.  50 years ago that was an advantage whites had over others.  Today friendship cross race lines as a result a white person may help a Chinese, who helps a Indian.  As our society changes so do the advantages and disadvantages.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #133 on: April 10, 2014, 05:12:10 PM »
  There were some earlier comments on how helping a friend get a job helps whites more.  50 years ago that was an advantage whites had over others.  Today friendship cross race lines as a result a white person may help a Chinese, who helps a Indian.  As our society changes so do the advantages and disadvantages.

That's still statistically just not true.  People tend to have way more friends of their same ethnicity.
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #134 on: April 10, 2014, 05:35:20 PM »
This guy blames black people for slavery, but you think his position might be defensible? You need clarification before calling him racist?

Black Americans [...] complain about slavery, but they're the ones who invented it.

I'm sorry, really, are you saying that we should proceed with caution, because this is conceivably not racist?

I'm astounded that this is tolerated, let alone defended. He's practically wearing a white dunce cap with eyeholes.

I suspect (again, fixer-upper will need to clarify) that he is referring to slavery in human history (not just America), and "that slavery was endemic in Africa and part of the structure of everyday life" (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery).  If he is saying that white American males did not invent slavery he has a point. 

But he actually wrote "Black Americans...invented it", and that statement is demonstrably false because slavery existed long before the American slave trade started.

So he may have deep-seated racist beliefs, or he could just be playing for argument points here - not that anyone would do that ;).  One can believe what one wants.


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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #135 on: April 10, 2014, 05:51:50 PM »
  There were some earlier comments on how helping a friend get a job helps whites more.  50 years ago that was an advantage whites had over others.  Today friendship cross race lines as a result a white person may help a Chinese, who helps a Indian.  As our society changes so do the advantages and disadvantages.

That's still statistically just not true.  People tend to have way more friends of their same ethnicity.

  Because most families tends to not a be mixed ethnicity people will always tend to have a lopsided ethnicity in their friends and family.  So if they own a large family business then you are good.  As most peoples families do not own midsize business it is more of an anomaly.  LinkedIn had an article last year how your close friends are your worst sources when looking for a job because you all know the same people and contacts.  Your friends who mix in different social circles have knowledge about the job market you may not, thus a better source of job information. 
  I agree with part of what you say, but personally I have helped as many friends of different ethnicity as same get jobs.  Maybe I am anomaly.  That would distort my view.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #136 on: April 10, 2014, 06:04:25 PM »
How can it be that no one has yet quoted the Ultimate Righteous Dude?

this guy?



They do kind of look the same!

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #137 on: April 10, 2014, 07:02:52 PM »
Fixer Upper needs  a bit of enlightenment on the effects and perils of those who have suffered systematic and historic discrimination.  In every society on earth where certain groups of people  have suffered discrimination (mostly racial but in some cases religious and tribal), the effects last for many many future generations.  We see that most prevalent in Latin American societies with the effects of discrimination on the future success of blacks and indigenous peoples and India in the impact discrimination has on the dalits and other darker skin system. There's a rigid caste system though illegal continues to permeate Indian society.  Some of you may recall the shock Indians felt when a darker skin Indian won the Ms. World or Ms. Universe pageant and the uproar that followed on the internet because that could never happen in India.  We also see it in Western Countries such as Italy where the southern Italians (darker skin) are more impoverished.  How about Eastern Europe where the gypsies originally from Persia have been faced with historical discrimination which still impacts them today. I say this to say that it's non-sense for Fixer Upper to assert that somehow people who suffer this structural racism is at the bottom of society because they are some how lazy or lacking in some way and it's entirely their fault. While I recognize that in America and most of the Western World minorities can lift themselves out of poverty and of course it happens everyday, I also recognize that it's not easy and often requires intervention and a perception/awakening that there's a way out. In other parts of the world, it's impossible because racism is intractable and opening accepted.  Even the ones that are discriminated against accept their "place" in society without agitating for a better life.

I mentioned earlier that the United States in unique in the way it funds education which directly impact the lives of minorities since they have to rely on local funding from invariable poorer areas.  Fixer Upper countered that India was worst.  I do agree but I was not comparing the US to India; America is unique among its peers. India remains a third world country by any measure; the vast majority of the country lives in abject poverty while a few live the good life.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #138 on: April 10, 2014, 07:45:25 PM »
I'm going to cast another judgement, I truly think that arguing with people over the internet is a big waste of time, frustrating, not much fun, gets you nowhere, etc.  I often like reading articles that have interesting insights, but there is only so much time for this stuff.  Have fun with the conversation, but I've got to take care of more practical matters.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #139 on: April 10, 2014, 07:57:23 PM »
I'm going to cast another judgement, I truly think that arguing with people over the internet is a big waste of time, frustrating, not much fun, gets you nowhere, etc.  I often like reading articles that have interesting insights, but there is only so much time for this stuff.  Have fun with the conversation, but I've got to take care of more practical matters.

Agree with you about all but the bolded part.  Wanna argue about it?

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #140 on: April 10, 2014, 08:02:56 PM »
LOL, no!

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #141 on: April 10, 2014, 09:08:56 PM »
I'm going to cast another judgement, I truly think that arguing with people over the internet is a big waste of time, frustrating, not much fun, gets you nowhere, etc.  I often like reading articles that have interesting insights, but there is only so much time for this stuff.  Have fun with the conversation, but I've got to take care of more practical matters.

Agree with you about all but the bolded part.  Wanna argue about it?

+1. If people can not be jerks or annoying, arguing on the internet can be fun.

If someone isn't looking to "win" but will address actual points (and not ignore half of a post they can't address) and will concede points, it's great.

...I guess that was a lot of "ifs."
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #142 on: April 11, 2014, 12:52:06 AM »
I don't think he's said anything overtly racist because he hasn't said white people are superior nor that black people are inferior. His arguments have been centered around culture. In fact one point he made was that immigrants sometimes succeed quite well in this country, that blanket statement would cover immigrants of all races.

IMHO, immigrants tend to do better because they come from the right hand side of the bell curve.  They're able to see opportunity, and motivated enough to leave their homeland to pursue it.  Its hard for them not to be more successful than someone who is happy to be on the dole. 

Regarding superiority vs inferiority of different races, I only recognize that different groups of people tend to have different strengths and weaknesses.  We all recognize this in animals (bloodhounds are great sniffers, while border collies are great at herding).  Humans are more equal, but there are still some differences. 

As for the "advantage of black women over white men", its codified into law.  As admirable as the intentions of the laws may be, I haven't seen proof of it correcting the economic disparity (rather, the opposite). 

Here's an example:  At U of Michigan, a black kid gets 20 college admission points for being black, while the white kid gets 12 for a perfect SAT score.  The situation doesn't encourage the black kid to try for that perfect score, so he doesn't study and learn as much as the white kid.  Which one will go further assuming everything else is equal?  I'll bet on the kid who studied his butt off.

Regarding this question from another poster:
Quote
Do you have proof that black people shun education?

The existence of the slur "oreo" in black culture without a similar slur in white culture tells us quite a bit about the value of education in each, but the proof is in the graduation rates.

On a final note:
As a society, we can do better.  We encourage and idolize athletes rather than scholars.  We let people hide behind EBT cards rather than letting their neighbors see them use food stamps.  We glorify consumerism, and push families into two incomes rather than celebrating mothers who stay home to raise great kids. 

Rather than encouraging ghetto kids with the promise of athletic scholarships, shouldn't we encourage them to use their brains?  Should we let the poor be a little ashamed of their food stamps?  Should we encourage single income families over iphones?  Should we "give" black kids scholarships rather than challenging them to earn one with a 4.0? 

One of the haters will find a way to turn this post into racism, in 3...2...1...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 01:44:41 AM by fixer-upper »

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #143 on: April 11, 2014, 01:00:48 AM »
But at the very least, his explanation for why white men are very disproportionately economically successful, is "the cream rises to the top", i.e. they are superior. So it meets your broken definition, anyway.

I agree with you, but I think what matchewed is saying is that fixer-upper believes black Americans are culturally inferior to white Americans, since he also stated that immigrants of minority races are not inferior to white people. personally, I think that's splitting hairs, but whatever.

"The cream rises to the top" has nothing to do with white versus black or the haves versus the have-nots.  It's simply a metaphor of letting the right side of the (intelligence and ambition) bell curve do their thing. 

I do rant against affirmative action, because I think it's both racist and counter-productive.  Consider the following scenario:

As an employer, you announce that because your black employees are disadvantaged, you're going to give double bonuses to the black employees, and half bonuses to the white ones.  What happens?  Is it inconceivable that the black people would slack off, while the white ones would work twice as hard to make up for the shortfall? 

Now extend this preference to hiring/firing practices:
Over time, the skills of your black employees would deteriorate, as they stopped striving to prove themselves better. 
Black kids wouldn't study as hard because they'd be assured of a hiring preference.
The skills of your white employees would increase, as they strive to make their skills outweigh the racial preference.
White kids would study harder, knowing they'd need to overcome the hiring preference.

Over time, you'll hurt the black community by allowing them to slide to the left side of the (ambition) curve, while encouraging the white community to climb to the right. 

Affirmative action = face punch stupid (plus it's racist)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 03:01:37 AM by fixer-upper »

matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #144 on: April 11, 2014, 05:16:10 AM »
I don't think he's said anything overtly racist because he hasn't said white people are superior nor that black people are inferior. His arguments have been centered around culture. In fact one point he made was that immigrants sometimes succeed quite well in this country, that blanket statement would cover immigrants of all races.

IMHO, immigrants tend to do better because they come from the right hand side of the bell curve.  They're able to see opportunity, and motivated enough to leave their homeland to pursue it.  Its hard for them not to be more successful than someone who is happy to be on the dole. 

Regarding superiority vs inferiority of different races, I only recognize that different groups of people tend to have different strengths and weaknesses.  We all recognize this in animals (bloodhounds are great sniffers, while border collies are great at herding).  Humans are more equal, but there are still some differences. 

As for the "advantage of black women over white men", its codified into law.  As admirable as the intentions of the laws may be, I haven't seen proof of it correcting the economic disparity (rather, the opposite). 

Here's an example:  At U of Michigan, a black kid gets 20 college admission points for being black, while the white kid gets 12 for a perfect SAT score.  The situation doesn't encourage the black kid to try for that perfect score, so he doesn't study and learn as much as the white kid.  Which one will go further assuming everything else is equal?  I'll bet on the kid who studied his butt off.

Regarding this question from another poster:
Quote
Do you have proof that black people shun education?

The existence of the slur "oreo" in black culture without a similar slur in white culture tells us quite a bit about the value of education in each, but the proof is in the graduation rates.

On a final note:
As a society, we can do better.  We encourage and idolize athletes rather than scholars.  We let people hide behind EBT cards rather than letting their neighbors see them use food stamps.  We glorify consumerism, and push families into two incomes rather than celebrating mothers who stay home to raise great kids. 

Rather than encouraging ghetto kids with the promise of athletic scholarships, shouldn't we encourage them to use their brains?  Should we let the poor be a little ashamed of their food stamps?  Should we encourage single income families over iphones?  Should we "give" black kids scholarships rather than challenging them to earn one with a 4.0? 

One of the haters will find a way to turn this post into racism, in 3...2...1...

Yep moved into racist territory. Comparing races and saying any one has an advantage over another like dogs is decidedly racist.

Outside of that I repeat "Do you have any proof of your claims?" You keep making claims. The same ol' tired ones. But yet no proof.

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #145 on: April 11, 2014, 06:22:37 AM »
As for the "advantage of black women over white men", its codified into law.  As admirable as the intentions of the laws may be, I haven't seen proof of it correcting the economic disparity (rather, the opposite). 

If it's not correcting the economic disparity (indeed, if it's making it worse, like you claim), then they don't have an economic advantage.

A (potentially failed) attempt to correct disparity via legislation does not make an advantage codified into law.  It makes a difference codified into law.  That difference may or may not lead to an advantage (or merely narrow the gap).

You claim that a black woman is economically advantaged over a white man.  That's simply not true, regardless of what affirmative action laws exist.  They are still at an economic disadvantage, which you implicitly admit by mentioning the economic disparity in the quote above.

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matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #146 on: April 11, 2014, 06:31:17 AM »
Here's an example:  At U of Michigan, a black kid gets 20 college admission points for being black, while the white kid gets 12 for a perfect SAT score.  The situation doesn't encourage the black kid to try for that perfect score, so he doesn't study and learn as much as the white kid.  Which one will go further assuming everything else is equal?  I'll bet on the kid who studied his butt off.

Why does that situation discourage the black kid? Just because he got 20 points for admission for being underrepresented doesn't mean he'll perform any differently.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #147 on: April 11, 2014, 12:43:29 PM »
Yikes, I still don't like it when racist is thrown around haphazardly, but frankly fixer-upper you've done precious little to dispel the notion. And by that I mean when discussing blacks you have almost unfailingly described the worst elements of black culture and applying that to all blacks.

You seem fixated on one small advantage minorities have - affirmative action - and seem utterly incapable of placing it in greater context. I'll gladly cede all of your arguments regarding the counter-productivity of affirmative action in 2014 (which I happen to agree with today, while also noting that it had its time and place) and still point out that compared to the huge advantages of simply being white and male it's akin to saying the Oakland Raiders are better off than the Seattle Seahawks because they have a better kicker.

Put another way, if I were seeking another job today in another city, throwing out all the inherent advantages I have from networking in the same city for the past 15 years in my field, would I be better off being a random white male or a random black female as I sat down for my interview. In my upper middle class job, like most upper middle class jobs, the answer should be obvious. The statistical likelihood is that the interviewers sitting across from me will also be mostly white, and that my potential coworkers will be mostly white, and so I get an edge before the first words are even spoken if I am also white.

Throw in all the networking advantages on top of it if relocation isn't happening, and the advantage is even greater. If this is not common sense to you, I would guess you are either young and naïve regarding how the world actually works, or simply have a misguided view of things. I'd venture you are a pretty bright guy given your background, but your position is idiotic. Given how just about no one is leaping to defend your assertions, perhaps its time to entertain the notion that your argument is the thoroughly weaker one.     

fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #148 on: April 11, 2014, 09:43:01 PM »
Comparing races and saying any one has an advantage over another like dogs is decidedly racist.

People from equatorial regions have developed genetic defenses to malaria that Europeans lack, while people from polar latitudes are less susceptible to SAD.  Lactose intolerance is also genetic.

Your racist doctor will advise you that each trait has an advantage in a certain environment.

fixer-upper

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #149 on: April 11, 2014, 10:59:38 PM »
Yikes, I still don't like it when racist is thrown around haphazardly, but frankly fixer-upper you've done precious little to dispel the notion. And by that I mean when discussing blacks you have almost unfailingly described the worst elements of black culture and applying that to all blacks.

I haven't touched on the worst aspects of black culture.  Google "polar bear game hunting" for some examples of real racism.

Quote
You seem fixated on one small advantage minorities have - affirmative action - and seem utterly incapable of placing it in greater context. I'll gladly cede all of your arguments regarding the counter-productivity of affirmative action in 2014 (which I happen to agree with today, while also noting that it had its time and place) and still point out that compared to the huge advantages of simply being white and male it's akin to saying the Oakland Raiders are better off than the Seattle Seahawks because they have a better kicker.

Other posters seem fixated on "but they're growing up in a slum and NEED things given to them for free".  I disagree, as I have seen firsthand how our charity wrecks the economic systems of places like Haiti.  When we dump free food on Haiti, it puts the local farmers out of work, creating even more poverty.  A kinder thing on our part would be to sell them food for a slightly higher price than their farmers are charging.  The same is true of the clothes you give to Goodwill.  Many of those get shipped overseas, and put even more people out of work.

But since you think I'm stuck on affirmative action, let's open the can of sexism.  I think we all know a woman or two who has said "take that bastard to the cleaners".  We probably know a few gold-diggers, too.  Compare the number of women who use divorce/paternity/sexual harassment laws to take advantage of men, versus the number of men who use women for economic gain.  The sad fact is that a high percentage of women not only accept this behavior among each other, but encourage it.  Among men, it's rather the opposite.

So I'll let you answer:  Do women have certain economic/legal advantages over men?  As the old saying goes, "marriage is grand.  Divorce is a hundred grand."

The other posters have clamored about the lack of networking, people hiring friends, and other disadvantages to black women, but it's disingenuous to deny that our laws and court precedents are stacked against white men. 

Quote
Put another way, if I were seeking another job today in another city, throwing out all the inherent advantages I have from networking in the same city for the past 15 years in my field, would I be better off being a random white male or a random black female as I sat down for my interview. In my upper middle class job, like most upper middle class jobs, the answer should be obvious. The statistical likelihood is that the interviewers sitting across from me will also be mostly white, and that my potential coworkers will be mostly white, and so I get an edge before the first words are even spoken if I am also white.

This proves that black women haven't achieved as many of those positions, but not much else.  Perhaps the metric would change if we didn't subsidize stay at home moms via the tax code, divorce laws, and welfare payments.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 11:50:08 PM by fixer-upper »

 

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