Author Topic: OT: Judging Others  (Read 75410 times)

arebelspy

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OT: Judging Others
« on: April 07, 2014, 08:55:44 PM »
One of the tenets of my generation is the idea to not judge, and many of us have bought into this idea.

The NYT had an interesting Op-Ed piece on this called "My So-Called Opinion" (Try this cached page if it's asking you to log in).

Snippet:
Quote
By “pluralism,” I mean a cultural recognition of difference: individuals of varying race, gender, religious affiliation, politics and sexual preference, all exalted as equal. In recent decades, pluralism has come to be an ethical injunction, one that calls for people to peacefully accept and embrace, not simply tolerate, differences among individuals. Distinct from the free-for-all of relativism, pluralism encourages us (in concept) to support our own convictions while also upholding an “energetic engagement with diversity, ” as Harvard’s Pluralism Project suggested in 1991.

I'm curious what other Mustachians think of the piece, especially in light of the "don't judge" being a viewpoint we see a lot here on the forums.

Here's a post, for example, from a few minutes ago:
It is truly different for everyone & all of us (including myself) should never judge what is important to others as long as people are living within their means & saving $. If that is not happening then judge away!!

My "Kitten Killing YouTube" business* is definitely allowing me to live within my means, so thanks for not judging!  ;)

*No animals were harmed in the making of this satire.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 08:57:29 PM by arebelspy »
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Cassie

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2014, 09:10:37 PM »
I think that the younger generations are better at not judging then baby boomers (me) & my parents generation (WWII).  My 3 kids are definitely better at it then me.  My oldest son & his wife are  educated but tend to work for a few years & then travel for a year.  They are very frugal-travel frugally (more then I want too) but are happy with their lives. I never judge them but others have including my parents because they are not living a typical life.  Actually none of my kids although well educated are following the traditional path which I am fine with.   I never interfere as my parents did not interfere with us. It will be interesting to see how things turn out and if they are happy in retrospect with their decisions. I think they will be as they are not into things as much as experiences.  Now as I am older I am definitely into experiences versus things. My kids range in age from 34-40.  My oldest son's wife is from Poland and is very grounded financially. I think that has much to do with the culture although she says many in that culture are as big of spendthrifts as in the USA.  I am glad that they are following their dreams.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2014, 11:18:38 PM »
Of the things I'd like to teach my kids, high on the list is "the ability to make good decisions in the face of limited or excessive information."  In other words, making good judgments.  To that end, the more one exercises the judgment process the better one is likely to judge.  So I think people do a great disservice to themselves when they decline to judge.

Complementary to the above discussion, however, is the tact one ought to have when deciding what opinions to voice and when to voice them.  Pedantry is not a useful behavior.  Helping others ignore noise and concentrate on the truly important - that's useful.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 01:45:22 AM »
In general avoiding passing judgment on unchangeable factors of someones being is a positive attribute. To judge someone based on the color of their skin or cultural background or handicap isn't just poor behavior - there is also no way to positively act on such a judgment- judged or not one cannot change their basic physical being.  So I'm in agreement with the statement that judging  "individuals of varying race, gender, religious affiliation, politics and sexual preference" is generally unhelpful.  Embracing the Fact that there the world and most of our communities are made up of different religions, races and sexual preferences seems both prudent and a constructive way to live.

However, Judging others behavior and actions is a very helpful and constructive trait.    From judging positive MMM traits like consuming less, worrying less and making the world a better place for you and your family to negative traits like aggression, conspicuous consumption or drink driving  these judgments are the key to navigating society and fostering positive interactions.  The mention of religion is interesting here- based on my interactions it seems that even thought someone's religion can change the more important thing to judge is how they act- are they a kind and loving Muslim, are they a fire and brimstone Christian or a bigoted Atheist?  The sum of the actions should be judged not the title one takes on (thought sometimes it is a good indicator).

SO- I'd say - don't judge what someone looks like, judge their actions. 

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 01:46:41 AM »
Interesting post pka.  I'll have to think about that.

Thank you.
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 02:59:25 AM »
Quote
We anxiously avoid casting moral judgment. Because with absolute truths elusive, what claims do we have to insist that our moral positions are better than those of someone from a different nation or culture?
Quote from the article.

I think there is a difference between critical analysis and judgementalism regarding difference ( whether that be with regard to nationality, culture, religion, sexuality, skin colour etc).

However due to the above anxiety, critical analysis may be avoided out of fear of seeming judgemental. I think this may be a problem for millenials, if the net result is to turn their brains off because they feel they are not allowed to have either an emotional or cognitive response.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 03:29:51 AM »
From my brief time here, the people seem a bit cliquish, and yes, they do judge.  Whenever I've tried to introduce a new concept, they're quick to pile on and label me black or white, rather than being open to shades of gray.


dragoncar

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 03:36:19 AM »
So I'm in agreement with the statement that judging  "individuals of varying race, gender, religious affiliation, politics and sexual preference" is generally unhelpful. 

Huh, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that religion and politics are totally something a person can change.  What's next, are we going to give consumerism a pass just because it often rises to the level of religion in this country?

NinetyFour

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 05:26:15 AM »
Doesn't face punch = judgment?

Ottawa

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2014, 06:18:19 AM »
In general avoiding passing judgment on unchangeable factors of someones being is a positive attribute. To judge someone based on the color of their skin or cultural background or handicap isn't just poor behavior - there is also no way to positively act on such a judgment- judged or not one cannot change their basic physical being.  So I'm in agreement with the statement that judging  "individuals of varying race, gender, religious affiliation, politics and sexual preference" is generally unhelpful.  Embracing the Fact that there the world and most of our communities are made up of different religions, races and sexual preferences seems both prudent and a constructive way to live.

However, Judging others behavior and actions is a very helpful and constructive trait.    From judging positive MMM traits like consuming less, worrying less and making the world a better place for you and your family to negative traits like aggression, conspicuous consumption or drink driving  these judgments are the key to navigating society and fostering positive interactions.  The mention of religion is interesting here- based on my interactions it seems that even thought someone's religion can change the more important thing to judge is how they act- are they a kind and loving Muslim, are they a fire and brimstone Christian or a bigoted Atheist?  The sum of the actions should be judged not the title one takes on (thought sometimes it is a good indicator).

SO- I'd say - don't judge what someone looks like, judge their actions.

(Thanks for the question arebelspy - it represents some nice meat (or lentils) to chew on first thing in the morning).

Hey PKA, I like your take on this question and agree on the general framework. 

To expand on your thoughts about judging or being critical through this article quote:

Quote
This assured expression of “I like what I like,” when strained through pluralist-inspired critical inquiry, deteriorates: “I like what I like” becomes “But why do I like what I like? Should I like what I like? Do I like it because someone else wants me to like it? If so, who profits and who suffers from my liking what I like?” and finally, “I am not sure I like what I like anymore.” For a number of us millennials, commitment to even seemingly simple aesthetic judgments have become shot through with indecision.

I am by nature argumentative - typically in the face of poorly constructed logic, tainted with biased views, resulting in porous conclusions.  I wish I was more pure in my approach to argument in the face of these situations - by avoiding the numerous pitfalls; outlined nicely in YANSS or YANLD .  While a laudable a goal it may be, it is largely unobtainable to avoid myself and to consistently detect in others.  We are all flawed by believing the small amount of information we hold on any given topic or view is not only the reality, but forms the kernel of belief in others.  Judgement of others based on their beliefs or actions in combination with your own knowlege on a given topic is not surprisingly a ground ripe for ridiculous arguments.

I think the Internet and its age of information (misinformation) is a fascinating experiment in progress.  Its ability to spawn extremely awesome groupthink, solutions and positive outcomes is limitless.  But ridiculous groupstupidity has the equal ability to rapidly instill even more poorly constructed logic, biased views, and porous conclusions about the world around us. 

Just look at the comments of the linked article in the OP.

avonlea

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2014, 06:25:55 AM »
So I'm in agreement with the statement that judging  "individuals of varying race, gender, religious affiliation, politics and sexual preference" is generally unhelpful. 

Huh, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that religion and politics are totally something a person can change. What's next, are we going to give consumerism a pass just because it often rises to the level of religion in this country?

Yes, I agree.  We are all born into certain cultures.  That does not give us a pass to be lazy and simply accept everything that we have been taught.

Quote
We are all flawed by believing the small amount of information we hold on any given topic or view is not only the reality, but forms the kernel of belief in others.  Judgement of others based on their beliefs or actions in combination with your own knowledge on a given topic is not surprisingly a ground ripe for ridiculous arguments.

I think the Internet and its age of information (misinformation) is a fascinating experiment in progress.  Its ability to spawn extremely awesome groupthink, solutions and positive outcomes is limitless.  But ridiculous groupstupidity has the equal ability to rapidly instill even more poorly constructed logic, biased views, and porous conclusions about the world around us. 

True.

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 07:10:28 AM »
Quote
We anxiously avoid casting moral judgment. Because with absolute truths elusive, what claims do we have to insist that our moral positions are better than those of someone from a different nation or culture?
Quote from the article.

I think there is a difference between critical analysis and judgementalism regarding difference ( whether that be with regard to nationality, culture, religion, sexuality, skin colour etc).

However due to the above anxiety, critical analysis may be avoided out of fear of seeming judgemental. I think this may be a problem for millenials, if the net result is to turn their brains off because they feel they are not allowed to have either an emotional or cognitive response.

(Emphasis added.)

But one would only be afraid to seem judgmental if being judgmental is a bad thing.  No one is afraid of appearing affable.

The question is: Is being judgmental a bad thing?  Your reply seems to inherently assume it is (or take for granted the fact that society as it is assumes it is).

The millennial being stuck in indecision is an extension that's not as interesting to me to discuss, and branches into other potential conflicting and conflated issues.  The root of it through seems to start with the "accept, don't judge" philosophy.

SO- I'd say - don't judge what someone looks like, judge their actions. 

After thinking about this more, it doesn't really help us out of the dilemma.  It's fine and all, but our society, and the question I'm getting at, seems to say that pretty much all judging is bad.

Tribe in Africa does X - "Oh, that's a cultural thing, I shouldn't judge them" - there's a case where you say to judge their actions, many people of the younger generation wouldn't.

You say it's okay to judge an action.  How about abortion? (This is obviously (unfortunately) going to get political, but hopefully people can not focus on the examples but the overall idea of "an action I don't agree with") Okay to judge for that?  Okay to judge the action of one person kissing a member of the same sex?  How about judging someone else for being a liberal arts major?  For being a plumber?  All okay?

are we going to give consumerism a pass just because it often rises to the level of religion in this country?

That's exactly the point - plenty of people would give that a pass.  "Don't judge me for my spending, you don't know what I go through, etc. etc."  The "walk a mile in their shoes" idea is great in theory for empathy, but was it taught too much?  Because now it seems that yes, people are going to give a pass for nearly everything.

"Who am I to judge?"
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avonlea

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 07:27:05 AM »
This thread reminded me of a podcast I heard on Radiolab a few weeks ago, What's Left When You're Right:  Lu vs. Soo

http://www.radiolab.org/story/lu-vs-soo/

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 07:29:05 AM »
This thread reminded me of a podcast I heard on Radiolab a few weeks ago, What's Left When You're Right:  Lu vs. Soo

http://www.radiolab.org/story/lu-vs-soo/

Do you know if there is a transcript available anywhere?

Reading is much faster and more pleasurable than listening for me.
I am a former teacher who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, spent some time traveling the world full time and am now settled with three kids.
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avonlea

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 07:36:24 AM »
This thread reminded me of a podcast I heard on Radiolab a few weeks ago, What's Left When You're Right:  Lu vs. Soo

http://www.radiolab.org/story/lu-vs-soo/

Do you know if there is a transcript available anywhere?

Reading is much faster and more pleasurable than listening for me.

Sorry, arebelspy. I don't know where to find a transcript. I did a quick Google search after reading your question...no luck. :(

iris lily

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2014, 07:39:06 AM »
Doesn't face punch = judgment?
I know! I have to laugh, I like facepunching but then I'm one of those judgey Boomers.


arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2014, 07:47:01 AM »
Sorry, arebelspy. I don't know where to find a transcript. I did a quick Google search after reading your question...no luck. :(

Okay.  Well thank you for trying, that was nice.  :)
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matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2014, 07:55:15 AM »
Hmmm, my take on it is that for at least in the context of this forum judgement has to happen. We're directly asking for help, advice, and exchanging ideas. It'd be a pretty boring forum that had an eternal answer of "that's cool."

With that being said I do see the need for some aspects of culture to be unjudgeable. Much like pka mentioned some things are ok to judge others not. I don't know what that line is and I'm not as comfortable with drawing one.

So is being judgmental bad? No. It in of itself is not bad. It is just the conflict between your cultural values and someone/action who doesn't fit them. It is a test of does this block fit into my preconceived notion of what the square hole should be. Now sometimes those conflicts can bring harm and that harm is bad. But that scenario is very specific IMO, and even then I can imagine scenarios where judgement brings harm but may be appropriate.

But who am I to judge ;)

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2014, 07:59:07 AM »
With that being said I do see the need for some aspects of culture to be unjudgeable. Much like pka mentioned some things are ok to judge others not. I don't know what that line is and I'm not as comfortable with drawing one.

Root into why you feel uncomfortable drawing that line, and I think you'll get closer to the heart of the question.
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smalllife

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2014, 08:09:27 AM »
With that being said I do see the need for some aspects of culture to be unjudgeable. Much like pka mentioned some things are ok to judge others not. I don't know what that line is and I'm not as comfortable with drawing one.

Root into why you feel uncomfortable drawing that line, and I think you'll get closer to the heart of the question.

Hmm, after a *very* brief reflection it appears that my line is drawn once the action has the potential to harm someone else.  The definition of "harm" though would be something to ponder, as indirect harm could be argued for just about any (in)action.   I would assume that which types are harm are "worth" judging would depend on the values of the judger.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2014, 08:11:40 AM »
Root into why you feel uncomfortable drawing that line, and I think you'll get closer to the heart of the question.

I agree!

(my opinion alert): There should really only be true discomfort if/when you are criticising or judging with no basis in fact (ignorance is often ok - if you incorporate new information into your paradigm rather than exercise blatant confirmation bias).  I think that anything else is fair game assuming it stays within the confines of the topic to be explored.

All other discomforts are those that you personally harbor based on your internal perceptions about societal norms/judgements.

In this regard...perhaps there are two lines.  One is based on  the 'rules of the game' the other is based on 'how you play the game'.


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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2014, 08:13:23 AM »
I think we judge every single interaction in every single day, and it's hugely important that we do.

"Judging" has taken on a negative connotation, but judging doesn't imply a negative - we judge people/situations both favorably and unfavorably; this is that "gut" feeling we get.

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2014, 08:17:42 AM »
I think we judge every single interaction in every single day, and it's hugely important that we do.

"Judging" has taken on a negative connotation, but judging doesn't imply a negative - we judge people/situations both favorably and unfavorably; this is that "gut" feeling we get.

YOU ARE WRONG AND AN IDIOT FOR SAYING SO.




..too much judging?  ;)
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2014, 08:18:26 AM »
I see plenty of judging all over the place.  Hello, thread about frugal living in CT (or wherever).   Hello, the whole anti-mustachian wall of fame.   

A little judgement is OK, there are things in the world that are *wrong*.  However, I don't go looking to tear people apart as part of my daily routine or quest for self-esteem / validation of my way of living.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2014, 08:19:47 AM »
I think we judge every single interaction in every single day, and it's hugely important that we do.

"Judging" has taken on a negative connotation, but judging doesn't imply a negative - we judge people/situations both favorably and unfavorably; this is that "gut" feeling we get.

YOU ARE WRONG AND AN IDIOT FOR SAYING SO.




..too much judging?  ;)

But, but, I'm a unique butterfly...

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2014, 08:19:57 AM »
A little judgement is OK

And where do you draw the line?
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matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2014, 08:21:58 AM »
With that being said I do see the need for some aspects of culture to be unjudgeable. Much like pka mentioned some things are ok to judge others not. I don't know what that line is and I'm not as comfortable with drawing one.

Root into why you feel uncomfortable drawing that line, and I think you'll get closer to the heart of the question.

So I've mentioned before on these boards an idea I've been chewing on for a long time. The idea that the internet has given rise to a cultural supermarket essentially. Where you can borrow and choose various cultural aspects and just apply them to your life. Find what fits and go with it.

Given that I'm uncomfortable because people have chosen some things for themselves and who am I to say their choice is a bad one if it does no harm to me and mine? I'm further uncomfortable with the concept of what exactly is included in me and mine? Is it just the body I have? The immediate air I influence? The web of people? My local community? The global community?

Our concept of cultural behavior (advent of the internet; could be argued that it started well before) has exploded right after our concept of our environment has (Silent Spring and all that). These dual explosions in a very short time frame have left us in a lurch trying to determine what boundaries are acceptable, given that we don't see these boundaries anymore (or rather that we see they are mutable) judgement seems wrong. Some people are very comfortable drawing their lines, defining their culture and their influence. It's probably easier to judge when you've done that.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2014, 08:25:35 AM »
Given that I'm uncomfortable because people have chosen some things for themselves and who am I to say their choice is a bad one if it does no harm to me and mine?

If your judgment does no harm to them and theirs, by your logic, why would you not 'judge'?

matchewed

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2014, 08:37:22 AM »
Given that I'm uncomfortable because people have chosen some things for themselves and who am I to say their choice is a bad one if it does no harm to me and mine?

If your judgment does no harm to them and theirs, by your logic, why would you not 'judge'?

Because it doesn't harm someone I should do it? That's a pretty poor criteria for an action or way of living.

That's fine that it is a logically consistent argument modus tollens and all that. And I'm not saying I never judge. I know I judge people all the time. But like I said I don't know exactly where that line is where I find it acceptable or not because it is constantly shifting in my head due to the fact that I view culture as a fluid construct.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2014, 08:45:14 AM »
A little judgement is OK

And where do you draw the line?

Where I judge is best.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2014, 10:58:49 AM »
I don't know whether judging is good or bad (lol get it??), but I do think it's intellectually lazy. Why try and understand and communicate the nuance that is present in nearly everything when you can just call it good or bad and be done with it?

arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2014, 11:08:40 AM »
I don't know whether judging is good or bad (lol get it??), but I do think it's intellectually lazy. Why try and understand and communicate the nuance that is present in nearly everything when you can just call it good or bad and be done with it?

While I agree that it's the case that preconceived notions often lead to judging, they aren't tied together.

You can reflect and analyze and then judge.

I think you're conflating things that aren't connected just because most people don't think, and then judge, but it's not the judging that's making them intellectually lazy, it just happens to occur after.  B followed A, but is not caused by it.

So the judging can still be discussed separate from being intellectually lazy, IMO.
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arebelspy

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2014, 11:10:09 AM »
This thread reminded me of a podcast I heard on Radiolab a few weeks ago, What's Left When You're Right:  Lu vs. Soo

http://www.radiolab.org/story/lu-vs-soo/

I listened.  Not sure of the lesson, or how it relates.  The Asian girl judges and sometimes that's good and sometimes it's bad?
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2014, 11:45:51 AM »
I think about this a lot. Within my profession (social work) the concept of unconditional positive regard is stressed, especially as it relates to interactions with clients. Social workers' clients are often seen as the lowest of the low in society (child abusers, sex offenders, drug addicts, etc.), and I agree with the notion that you can't work effectively with clients if you're radiating an inherent dislike.

Because of that training, if I find myself judging someone I automatically start asking myself why. What it is that is triggering that response: do I feel unsafe in the situation, am I sad for their children, do I just find their personality abrasive?

In my world there are two different forms of judgement (as noted by previous posters): 1. the helpful kind, which informs your decisions and keeps you safe as you move through life, and 2. the worthless kind, built upon assumptions and unnecessary fears.

I never, ever feel bad about using my judgement in relation to keeping myself safe, even if it turns out that my judgement was ill-formed or flat out wrong. But I do feel bad if I'm judging just for the sake of it. Though it sounds trite, I really don't know what the person in front of me has gone through in life. Some of my absolute "worst" clients had stories that will stay with me forever, and I'll always be glad that I was able to offer them that positive regard in the moment.

As it relates to this forum, well, most folks here are asking for opinions/judgement. They lay out their finances and decisions, and ask others opinions on how they can improve their situation, cut excessive spending, increase their wealth, etc. Those opinions can either be acknowledged as helpful or seen as too heavy-handed, but it seems like they're almost always solicited by the original poster.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2014, 11:51:17 AM »
I don't know whether judging is good or bad (lol get it??), but I do think it's intellectually lazy. Why try and understand and communicate the nuance that is present in nearly everything when you can just call it good or bad and be done with it?

While I agree that it's the case that preconceived notions often lead to judging, they aren't tied together.

You can reflect and analyze and then judge.

I think you're conflating things that aren't connected just because most people don't think, and then judge, but it's not the judging that's making them intellectually lazy, it just happens to occur after.  B followed A, but is not caused by it.

So the judging can still be discussed separate from being intellectually lazy, IMO.

bolded for emphasis. If someone reflects and analyzes and then judges I would still call that lazy. "good" and "bad" are some of the least descriptive words someone can use. e.g. "driving cars uses more limited natural resources per mile than biking" vs. "driving is bad"

I understand that with limited mental resources, judging can be a way to file away a decision you've already made while consuming minimal storage space. I see this as lazy the same way I see habits as lazy. Doesn't mean it doesn't have its place of course.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2014, 12:01:32 PM »
This thread reminded me of a podcast I heard on Radiolab a few weeks ago, What's Left When You're Right:  Lu vs. Soo

http://www.radiolab.org/story/lu-vs-soo/

I listened.  Not sure of the lesson, or how it relates.  The Asian girl judges and sometimes that's good and sometimes it's bad?

Yes, I think you are right.  There is no clear lesson.  There are different ways to see the world.  Some people judge more than others.  There is both good and bad in that. I don't really think that people having a fear of being perceived as judgmental is a new problem, definitely not a problem limited to a generation.  I think that societal ills have almost always been slow to change; bad things happen because good people let them happen, that sort of thing. But too much change happening too quickly can cause problems as well.  So, I guess I am basically saying that it's complicated.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2014, 12:20:33 PM »
hmmm, so many good comments here! (or, well, comments I agree with and therefore judge to be good :))

I don't know whether judging is good or bad (lol get it??), but I do think it's intellectually lazy. Why try and understand and communicate the nuance that is present in nearly everything when you can just call it good or bad and be done with it?

While I agree that it's the case that preconceived notions often lead to judging, they aren't tied together.

You can reflect and analyze and then judge.

I think you're conflating things that aren't connected just because most people don't think, and then judge, but it's not the judging that's making them intellectually lazy, it just happens to occur after.  B followed A, but is not caused by it.

So the judging can still be discussed separate from being intellectually lazy, IMO.

I think judging the actions of others, or being "judgmental," is only bad if it is associated with being closeminded. look at all the stories on here about parents, inlaws, friends, etc. being "judgmental" about a more mustachian lifestyle. it's certainly their prerogative to judge your lifestyle, but by doing so too quickly, they are closing themselves off from a new idea. for another example, think of a group of high school kids being "judgmental" about a new kid because he "dresses weird" or whatever shit kids (and adults) superficially judge each other on. maybe they would actually have a lot in common with him, and could have made a new friend, but they'll never find out.

on the other hand, if you observe someone's behavior, think  about how it aligns with your own values/worldview, reassess those values/worldview and make sure you still agree with yourself :), and then judge the behavior as good/bad, right/wrong, prudent/imprudent, etc... I think exercising that kind of judgment is crucial. what I got out of the article is that fear of making the former types of judgments is scaring millenials off from making the latter.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2014, 12:27:12 PM »
I think it's okay to exercise judgement. There are some things that are clearly bad, like clitoral mutilation, and you can't just go "well, that's their culture" and be done with it.

The problems start, I think, when people hold onto their judgements regardless of new information coming to light. Like, many hold a judgement like this: "poor people are just lazy and need to get moving if they want a better life" ... regardless of situation or circumstance. But if you sat with Norrie for a month at her work, I guarantee you will hear of situations and circumstances that should change or at least add nuance to that particular way of judging.

So ... Yeah, judge all you want with the best information you have today. But be willing to chuck it all out and change your judgement criteria as you learn and develop through life. We have to be willing to judge our own ways of judging and let them go as we learn. Anything less leads to prejudice and stagnation and stupid, outdated generalizations like "rap is bad" or "poor people are lazy."

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2014, 12:33:35 PM »
I think it's okay to exercise judgement. There are some things that are clearly bad, like clitoral mutilation, and you can't just go "well, that's their culture" and be done with it.

The problems start, I think, when people hold onto their judgements regardless of new information coming to light. Like, many hold a judgement like this: "poor people are just lazy and need to get moving if they want a better life" ... regardless of situation or circumstance. But if you sat with Norrie for a month at her work, I guarantee you will hear of situations and circumstances that should change or at least add nuance to that particular way of judging.

So ... Yeah, judge all you want with the best information you have today. But be willing to chuck it all out and change your judgement criteria as you learn and develop through life. We have to be willing to judge our own ways of judging and let them go as we learn. Anything less leads to prejudice and stagnation and stupid, outdated generalizations like "rap is bad" or "poor people are lazy."

yes!! very well put.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2014, 12:35:35 PM »
I don't know whether judging is good or bad (lol get it??), but I do think it's intellectually lazy. Why try and understand and communicate the nuance that is present in nearly everything when you can just call it good or bad and be done with it?

While I agree that it's the case that preconceived notions often lead to judging, they aren't tied together.

You can reflect and analyze and then judge.

I think you're conflating things that aren't connected just because most people don't think, and then judge, but it's not the judging that's making them intellectually lazy, it just happens to occur after.  B followed A, but is not caused by it.

So the judging can still be discussed separate from being intellectually lazy, IMO.

bolded for emphasis. If someone reflects and analyzes and then judges I would still call that lazy. "good" and "bad" are some of the least descriptive words someone can use. e.g. "driving cars uses more limited natural resources per mile than biking" vs. "driving is bad"

I understand that with limited mental resources, judging can be a way to file away a decision you've already made while consuming minimal storage space. I see this as lazy the same way I see habits as lazy. Doesn't mean it doesn't have its place of course.

Gotcha.  I agree.  All habits are bad, except the habit of reflecting.  Judging is a habit.  Good way to think of it.

There are different ways to see the world.  Some people judge more than others.  There is both good and bad in that.

I see now.  Good point.  Thanks.  :)
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2014, 12:39:01 PM »
Regarding the article:
Quote
This assured expression of “I like what I like,” when strained through pluralist-inspired critical inquiry, deteriorates: “I like what I like” becomes “But why do I like what I like? Should I like what I like? Do I like it because someone else wants me to like it? If so, who profits and who suffers from my liking what I like?” and finally, “I am not sure I like what I like anymore.” For a number of us millennials, commitment to even seemingly simple aesthetic judgments have become shot through with indecision.
emphasis mine
I'm glad cultural pluralism is taught/pushed in the U.S., as evidenced by my interest in a counter-hegemonic blog. Such analysis is what led me to MMM and keeps me skeptical and questioning. If the price of urging critical analysis of various points of view is some waffley millenials, I'm okay with that. Also, I disagree with the article's defeatist we-are-always-already-limited-in-our-ability-to-be-objective-so-we-might-as-well-give-up-trying-to-make-decisions-or-take-responsibility mentality.


Regarding judging others: Humans judge each other, situations, foods, whatever based on their defined values and tastes (as provided to them through culture and/or acquired through analyzing available data).  Placing a value judgment (is it right or wrong) on being judgmental is of no consequence.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2014, 12:45:34 PM »
About 10 years ago, I moved through a certain lady-age where a few of my unmarried girlfriends decided they wanted to get pregnant RIGHT NOW.  With each announcement, there was quite a lot of joy and congratulations being offered.   I'm sure my silence spoke volumes because I was typically accosted with "you don't think it's a good idea", at which point, I felt the need to elaborate. 
I usually just said "I grew up without a father, and I would never do that to a child ON PURPOSE".  This is just MY OPINION.  I survived and thrived and so have many others, but I still would not choose to do it.  I offered to accept the choices of my friends, and would love their child no less, yet I am expected to AGREE WITH and not just ACCEPT the choices that my friends make.  Invariably, our friendships were damaged.  They think I am a judgemental "church-lady", and I think they are selfish and needy. 
Yeah, I think we need a little more judgementalism in our society.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2014, 01:00:25 PM »
All habits are bad, except the habit of reflecting.

well... habits can be a way to streamline your life, but can also lead to complacency and other things most people don't want... would be a more descriptive way to put it. but that's what some people want and it is therefore "good" for them.

also https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/good-luck-bad-luck/
applies to a subset of good/bad judgements

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2014, 01:28:11 PM »
All habits are bad, except the habit of reflecting.

well... habits can be a way to streamline your life, but can also lead to complacency and other things most people don't want... would be a more descriptive way to put it. but that's what some people want and it is therefore "good" for them.

Sorry, I have judged it as bad, and am putting no further thought into it!

Also Happy Birthday!  I judge that as good.
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2014, 01:46:24 PM »
Some people judge, some people judge less.  Everyone does it to some degree, and the reason why we judge in the first place is probably due to some evolutionary impetus.  But as with many of our human traits that made sense before technology and civilization, the question is, are they still relevant?

Earlier in the thread, someone else said something to the effect of your actions are all that matter.  I think your actions, in combination with what you say, define your character.  And a group of characters together define a culture.  I agree with others than modern communication technology (particularly the Internet) has gone a long way to break down cultural barriers.  A few generations ago, cultures I think were more rigidly defined, geographically, racially, politically, etc.  Increasingly those things get blurred.

I'm looking at this question from the perspective of a judge, i.e. an employee of the legal system, the head of a courtroom.  What does this person do?  He judges whether or not a law has been broken, or at the higher levels, is the law even valid.  But what are laws?  At least in democratic-type societies like the USA, the laws are just encoded versions of social norms, the way most people want things to be.  Every looked at some of those obsolete or ridiculous laws from 100 years ago?  The reason they are obsolete or ridiculous is because they represented a very different culture.  You don't even have to get into the "hard" philosophical/ethical/political stuff: take laws about horse-and-buggies.  I'm just making assumptions here, but I'll bet there's at least a few counties that have laws on the books, and they presumably made plenty of sense at the time... but now they're just plain irrelevant since we no longer live in a horse-and-buggy culture.

As far as getting uncomfortable drawing the line as far as what's OK to judge and what's not...  perhaps it has to do with how personal something is, and how it can be objectively it can be discussed.  Abortion's a great example.  I'll use my friend's mom as an example.  She's hard-core anti-abortion, and certainly judges anyone getting abortions.  And to her, it is an objective decision, because that's what her religion says; to her, religion is more fundamental than gravity or 1+1=2.

Compare that to an agnostic position, that says, we can't (yet) know if a soul really exists, and we don't have objective criteria for defining when a fertilized egg becomes "human" rather than a glob of cells, and given this, abortion is highly personal.  Even if life begins immediately at conception and there is a soul, what if there's no question that the child will be born into a miserable life (extreme poverty, abuse, hunger, drugs, slavery, etc)?  But what if the child rose above all that and came up with a cure for cancer?  But what if it was found much later that that cure had some unforeseen consequence that was even worse than cancer?

Perhaps a less incendiary topic: do you judge fat people?  I'll admit, I have a "gut" (get it?) reaction when I see an obese person, but then I think, what if this person has a glandular problem, or some congenital issue?  Sure, a lot of fatties are of the lazy/over-eating type.  But there are those who can't help it, despite doing all the right things.

I think people are hesitant to draw the line because it forces them to answer questions they don't want to ask themselves.  And/or, they know that the topic itself is a big can of worms, and they simply don't want to go there.

Let me give another example: diet.  Can of worms alert!  You've got the USDA saying one thing, Dr Oz saying another, Gary Taubes with his opinion...  As far as I can tell, the current "state of the art" can't answer the question, what is the optimal human diet?  Even if you don't agree with Gary Taubes's conclusions, I think you have to agree about one of his points, and that is it's virtually impossible to conduct a "perfect" scientific study of human nutrition.  You simply can't change just one facet of human diet; conclusions drawn from experiments where two or more variables are changed are always imprecise.

Being a technology guy, this analogy seems apt: say I have a computer that doesn't seem to work correctly.  At the most basic level, it's fairly easy to troubleshoot: is it plugged it?  Do the major components work if swapped in/out of another system?  Say we go through all levels of tech support, and just can't pinpoint the problem.  What if, one transistor (of more than a billion in a modern CPU) was of marginal tolerance, enough that it just barely passed quality control, and it just so happens that the "synergy" of the particular problematic system causes it to fall out of tolerance, such that it otherwise works fine in 99% of other systems out there?  How many people out there are capable of drilling down to that level to figure out what's really wrong?  But the CPU is a human invention, so there's somebody out there who knows.

But life on our planet is like this ultra-complex system that wasn't invented by humans, and nobody understands how it all works.  With every breakthrough in understanding, there's a boatload of new questions to be answered.  Some things are seemingly easier to study and understand, and some are harder, maybe completely intractable.  Take Newtonian physics versus the ethics of abortion.  Or even less dramatic, calculus versus human diet and nutrition.

If I don't have a position on something, I don't think it means I'm intellectually lazy or ignorant or unintelligent.  Maybe it's a cop-out answer, but I think some things simply aren't knowable at this point, so how can I be anything but agnostic?  And if I'm agnostic, how can I judge?  Of course, I have my prejudices and biases like everyone else, and those lead to snap judgments.  But I make an honest effort to recognize the preconceptions in myself, and avoid letting them drive my actual behavior.  But, take any one (of literally countless) topic of human study, and you'll find people who have dedicated their lives to learning everything they can about it.  And while they may be brilliant and make tremendous progress (e.g. Newton, Einstein), they still leave the field with just as many new questions as old questions they answered.  Is there any field of study where it's case closed, we know everything there is to know?  I don't think so.

So if you're not agnostic on a topic, I guess that gives you the "right" to judge.  But how is it that your knowledge is so perfect and complete that you're not agnostic?  Surely everyone here has seen a classic Internet flamewar on human diet and nutrition.  "Dr Oz says this."  "Yeah, but Gary Taubes says that."  "Gary Taubes ignored study XYZ in his work."  "Study XYZ was flawed."  "Study ABC has been peer-reviewed a million times and says they're both wrong."  And it goes on and on.  Certainly nobody in the debate has perfect and complete knowledge on the topic---yet they argue it so passionately.  Is arguing not another form of judging?  An argument is basically saying, "I judge you to be wrong."

Certainly, you can judge in the face of ignorance, logical fallacies or simple misunderstandings.  And for those things it's easy to draw a line.  But when you get into the "heavy" stuff, everyone's knowledge is imperfect and incomplete, therefore it's impossible to draw a line in the sand.  So, you make the best with what you have; you use the knowledge and intelligence you do have to draw a line---but not the line, as the next guy has different knowledge/experience/understanding/intelligence, so he draws a different line.  The line you draw is part of your character, and groups of people with similar lines form a culture.

How passionate are you about your line?  Maybe you're agnostic, and simply unwilling to even draw a line.  Maybe you can't live with ambiguity, so you're compelled to draw a line, any line.  And maybe that line is drawn from something so fundamental to you (such as religion) that you defend it fiercely, and segregate yourself from others with a different (or no) line.

Sorry, got rambling there.

This discussion made me think of Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird... it had me off looking up Atticus Finch quotes.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2014, 01:51:58 PM »
Also Happy Birthday!  I judge that as good.

yes, one year older

hello 23/2+7 < ladies < (23-7)*2

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2014, 02:23:40 PM »
  I loved this quote from the article. -

For instance, a student in one of my English classes was chastened for his preference for Shakespeare over that of the Haitian-American writer Edwidge Danticat. The professor challenged the student to apply a more “disinterested” analysis to his reading so as to avoid entangling himself in a misinformed gesture of “postcolonial oppression.” That student stopped raising his hand in class.

  So the student was judged for not judging according to the professors preferences.  To elaborate to choose a preferred style of writer, Steven King over Orson Scott Card is personal taste.  To say that person was bias in their choice is arrogance.  Sounds to me like the professors judged the student on his skin color.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2014, 02:44:16 PM »
Actually forming an opinion is something that costs me (a small amount of) mental energy to do, and very rarely gives me any benefit.

A previous poster (very insensitively! see, I made a judgement) referred to "fatties". How does making that judgement improve anyone's life? Every fat person is constantly told that they should try to not be fat, so telling them about it isn't going to help them. On top of that, I have literally no idea how I could benefit from making that judgement, unless I were of the (absolutely disgusting, there's another judgement) opinion that I could improve my life by selectively associating with people who aren't fat.

To summarise that, I think it's just not worth the effort of judging anyone for something that (a) harms them more than it harms everyone else, and (b) they are surely already aware of.

Where I think it is useful to make a judgement is when it might actually improve something. For example, on this forum we judge people (we even punch them in the face) for their financial decisions; generally, though, only when they are actually soliciting our opinions. Perhaps ironically, one of the things I do judge people for is being overly judgemental in a negative way; but when I raise the issue, often one of us does learn something out of it.

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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2014, 02:50:51 PM »
I have literally no idea how I could benefit from making that judgement, unless I were of the (absolutely disgusting, there's another judgement) opinion that I could improve my life by selectively associating with people who aren't fat.

Can you improve your life by associating with people who are good with money instead of bad with money?

Can you improve your life by associating with people with healthy eating and exercise habits versus unhealthy?

Can you improve your life by associating with people who portray trait X that you would value in yourself, and disassociating with people who do the opposite of X?
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Re: OT: Judging Others
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2014, 03:19:05 PM »
Can you improve your life by associating with people who are good with money instead of bad with money?
That one, quite possibly - I guess it depends on what counts as "associating". Anyway it's more likely that we'd just have too many personality differences to get on very well anyway.

Quote
Can you improve your life by associating with people with healthy eating and exercise habits versus unhealthy?

Can you improve your life by associating with people who portray trait X that you would value in yourself, and disassociating with people who do the opposite of X?
Sure, there are some values for X where this makes sense to do - I wasn't making a general statement, just a response to the post above which mentioned judging fat people. My argument is that there's almost never a possible benefit to judging somebody as fat. (Also, the word "fatties" is very rude, and strongly implies a judgement of fat people, although the poster was talking about trying not to judge. I'd argue that even if it is a result of overeating and laziness, it's still not our place to judge.)

For example, I judge racists and misogynists, and I find that a valuable use of an opinion. If I could tell somebody "I don't want to be your friend because X" to their face, and not feel like a dick, then it's a good enough reason. "I don't want to be your friend because you are fat" would be total dickishness, and to anyone who would ever say this without feeling like a dick, I don't want to be your friend because of that.