Author Topic: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???  (Read 2017 times)

pudding

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Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« on: September 27, 2019, 02:21:22 PM »
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49824683

Sandra Muller, France's #MeToo creator, fined for defamation
« Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 02:23:38 PM by pudding »

Wrenchturner

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2019, 06:52:15 PM »
It is hard to know how much retribution someone should experience for a tasteless sexual advance. 

sui generis

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2019, 10:12:31 AM »

Unless I'm missing something, and tbf this article is extremely short and probably lacks some detail, this is a travesty.  I don't know French law, of course, and far be it from me to declare US law better than any other nation's, but generally in defamation to recover damages a statement has to be shown to be false. In this case, it sounds like the accused pretty much admitted what Muller said (tweeted) was true.  But he gets to recover anyway?!!?  WTF?  So now in France you can't tell something true about someone in case it is too painful for them?  And you have to pay them tens of thousands of dollars?  That is egregiously morally perverse, encouraging people to do and say horrible things and then sue anyone that talks about what they did if it causes the *wrongdoer* problems in the future? My god.

PKFFW

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2019, 06:01:42 PM »

Unless I'm missing something, and tbf this article is extremely short and probably lacks some detail, this is a travesty.  I don't know French law, of course, and far be it from me to declare US law better than any other nation's, but generally in defamation to recover damages a statement has to be shown to be false. In this case, it sounds like the accused pretty much admitted what Muller said (tweeted) was true.  But he gets to recover anyway?!!?  WTF?  So now in France you can't tell something true about someone in case it is too painful for them?  And you have to pay them tens of thousands of dollars?  That is egregiously morally perverse, encouraging people to do and say horrible things and then sue anyone that talks about what they did if it causes the *wrongdoer* problems in the future? My god.
To my reading it seems that the problem was that Sandra Muller made remarks that to the lay person made it appear she and Eric Brion had a working relationship and it was in that context that the alleged sexual harassment took place.  That appears to be untrue.

There is a fundamental difference between hitting on someone (even if by using inappropriate language to do so) in a social situation in which one might reasonably expect such a situation and sexual harassment in the workplace where one should reasonably expect that this behaviour not take place.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 06:09:10 PM by PKFFW »

GuitarStv

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2019, 12:00:59 PM »

Unless I'm missing something, and tbf this article is extremely short and probably lacks some detail, this is a travesty.  I don't know French law, of course, and far be it from me to declare US law better than any other nation's, but generally in defamation to recover damages a statement has to be shown to be false. In this case, it sounds like the accused pretty much admitted what Muller said (tweeted) was true.  But he gets to recover anyway?!!?  WTF?  So now in France you can't tell something true about someone in case it is too painful for them?  And you have to pay them tens of thousands of dollars?  That is egregiously morally perverse, encouraging people to do and say horrible things and then sue anyone that talks about what they did if it causes the *wrongdoer* problems in the future? My god.
To my reading it seems that the problem was that Sandra Muller made remarks that to the lay person made it appear she and Eric Brion had a working relationship and it was in that context that the alleged sexual harassment took place.  That appears to be untrue.

There is a fundamental difference between hitting on someone (even if by using inappropriate language to do so) in a social situation in which one might reasonably expect such a situation and sexual harassment in the workplace where one should reasonably expect that this behaviour not take place.

Is a cocktail party the sort of social situation in which one might reasonably expect to be told "You have big breasts. You are my type of woman. I will make you orgasm all night"?

PKFFW

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2019, 03:54:25 PM »

Unless I'm missing something, and tbf this article is extremely short and probably lacks some detail, this is a travesty.  I don't know French law, of course, and far be it from me to declare US law better than any other nation's, but generally in defamation to recover damages a statement has to be shown to be false. In this case, it sounds like the accused pretty much admitted what Muller said (tweeted) was true.  But he gets to recover anyway?!!?  WTF?  So now in France you can't tell something true about someone in case it is too painful for them?  And you have to pay them tens of thousands of dollars?  That is egregiously morally perverse, encouraging people to do and say horrible things and then sue anyone that talks about what they did if it causes the *wrongdoer* problems in the future? My god.
To my reading it seems that the problem was that Sandra Muller made remarks that to the lay person made it appear she and Eric Brion had a working relationship and it was in that context that the alleged sexual harassment took place.  That appears to be untrue.

There is a fundamental difference between hitting on someone (even if by using inappropriate language to do so) in a social situation in which one might reasonably expect such a situation and sexual harassment in the workplace where one should reasonably expect that this behaviour not take place.

Is a cocktail party the sort of social situation in which one might reasonably expect to be told "You have big breasts. You are my type of woman. I will make you orgasm all night"?
To answer your question, no.

However, please note that I did not state there was anywhere one might reasonably expect to be told any specific thing.  I stated one might reasonably expect to be hit on (even if by using inappropriate language to do so) when in a social situation such as a cocktail party.

I do not in any way condone the language he chose to use.  It was rude and inappropriate.  A considerate, polite and respectful person should never choose such vulgar language to express themselves.

Is it workplace sexual harassment that Sandra Muller was exposed to in her job as her series of tweets would have led any reasonable person to conclude she was claiming?  Considering she and Brion never had a working relationship, absolutely not.

Truth is only a defence for slander when what the defendant has claimed is actually true.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2019, 04:19:53 PM »
Basically the case turned on whether whether the infamous sentences said to her amounted to harassment.

The court said no.

Quote
Le tribunal a souligné que la question des « violences sous toutes leurs formes infligées aux femmes par des hommes constitue à l’évidence un sujet d’intérêt général ». Pour autant, les juges ont estimé qu’en imputant à Eric Brion de l’avoir harcelée sexuellement, Sandra Muller avait tenu des propos diffamatoires – le délit de harcèlement étant constitué par « une répétition ou une pression grave » – et qu’elle ne pouvait bénéficier de l’excuse de « bonne foi », n’ayant apporté ni « base factuelle suffisante » ni preuve de la vérité de ses accusations.

Basically it's fine to try to flirt once, no matter how crass you do it. Get turned down and keep doing it or exert pressure, then that's harassment.

Remember that it's much, much easier to win these kind of court cases in France than in the United States. Remember also that France is a different country made up of different people, who happen to have a rather different attitude about boning.

PKFFW

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2019, 05:03:37 PM »
Thank you for the information.  I was going on the article only as I don't read French so had no way of knowing the specifics of the case.

It would be interesting to know if harassment is treated the same in the workplace and social settings in France.  My understanding of Australian law suggests actions such as Brion's would, like in this ruling, need to be repeated if done in a social setting in order for it to meet the legal definition of harassment.  However, in the workplace a single such instance of such behaviour could quite easily be ruled harassment.  Context and setting play an important role.

Hotstreak

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2019, 09:04:39 PM »
Thank you for the information.  I was going on the article only as I don't read French so had no way of knowing the specifics of the case.

It would be interesting to know if harassment is treated the same in the workplace and social settings in France.  My understanding of Australian law suggests actions such as Brion's would, like in this ruling, need to be repeated if done in a social setting in order for it to meet the legal definition of harassment.  However, in the workplace a single such instance of such behaviour could quite easily be ruled harassment.  Context and setting play an important role.


Typically under the law harassment is ongoing -- single incidents would rarely qualify.  But company policy is not the law.  A company can fire you for "harassment" if they want, they can define harassment in their own company policies and apply their own standards.  The French case in the link was decided by a court, under legal standards, not under company policy.  So it's important to say what standard is being used.

PKFFW

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2019, 12:28:36 AM »
Quote from: Hotstreak
Typically under the law harassment is ongoing -- single incidents would rarely qualify.  But company policy is not the law.  A company can fire you for "harassment" if they want, they can define harassment in their own company policies and apply their own standards.  The French case in the link was decided by a court, under legal standards, not under company policy.  So it's important to say what standard is being used.
I agree with you regarding the company policy part.

The legal part depends upon jurisdiction.  In NSW Australia, the Anti-discrimination Act defines sexual harassment (which this case would clearly fall under) as...

"a person sexually harasses another person if—

    (a)  the person makes an unwelcome sexual advance, or an unwelcome request for sexual favours, to the other person, or

    (b)  the person engages in other unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature in relation to the other person,

in circumstances in which a reasonable person, having regard to all the circumstances, would have anticipated that the other person would be offended, humiliated or intimidated.
"

As you can see, there is no requirement for the behaviour to be repeated or ongoing only that a "reasonable person" would have anticipated that the other person would be offended, etc.  In the case referred to in the OP, I believe, if the incident occurred at work or a work related function, it would be deemed sexual harassment here in NSW.

ETA:  Just to be clear, the Anti-discrimination Act applies to workplaces only.  As the incident referred to in the OP occurred at a social situation, it would not actually apply.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 12:37:22 AM by PKFFW »

GuitarStv

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2019, 07:48:13 AM »
Typically under the law harassment is ongoing -- single incidents would rarely qualify.  But company policy is not the law.  A company can fire you for "harassment" if they want, they can define harassment in their own company policies and apply their own standards.  The French case in the link was decided by a court, under legal standards, not under company policy.  So it's important to say what standard is being used.

If I pull my dick out and masturbate to completion in front of you, following you around as you try to escape me - but I only do it ONCE - you're telling me that this does not legally count as sexual harassment?

Davnasty

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2019, 07:53:38 AM »
Typically under the law harassment is ongoing -- single incidents would rarely qualify.  But company policy is not the law.  A company can fire you for "harassment" if they want, they can define harassment in their own company policies and apply their own standards.  The French case in the link was decided by a court, under legal standards, not under company policy.  So it's important to say what standard is being used.

If I pull my dick out and masturbate to completion in front of you, following you around as you try to escape me - but I only do it ONCE - you're telling me that this does not legally count as sexual harassment?

Does this even merit a response? Obviously other laws are being broken in this scenario.

Also, the bolded would make it harassment even if it was just flirtation.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 07:57:04 AM by Dabnasty »

GuitarStv

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2019, 07:59:53 AM »
Do most people not try to escape a situation of sexual harassment?  I'd assume that the woman being told that her big tits make the french guy horny also escaped his company at the soonest possible juncture.

I'm trying to establish that a victim does not need to endure sexual harassment multiple times before the law will protect them.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 02:45:11 PM by GuitarStv »

Davnasty

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2019, 08:15:17 AM »
Do most people not try to escape a situation of sexual harassment?  I'd assume that the woman being told that her big tits make the french guy horny also escaped his company at the soonest possible juncture.

I'm trying to establish that a victim does not need to endure sexual harassment multiple times before the law will protect them?

I don't know what happened in the scenario in question and I'm not entirely clear on where the legal line is drawn, but from the posts in this thread I understood the idea of multiple incidents to include continued attempts after someone tries to walk away or asks the person to leave. Not necessarily incidents separated by a length of time. So if someone gives an indecent proposal and is told no but continues to ask, then that would qualify as harassment. Again, just my understanding.

I'll also say that I don't necessarily agree with that reasoning but rather I'm trying to understand the court's reasoning. I suspect most women would prefer that even one lewd request be considered harassment. Personally I don't know the right answer. I feel like there are certain things that shouldn't be OK to say even once, but I don't know if the law is the right way to correct that kind of behavior.

GuitarStv

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2019, 02:49:37 PM »
Do most people not try to escape a situation of sexual harassment?  I'd assume that the woman being told that her big tits make the french guy horny also escaped his company at the soonest possible juncture.

I'm trying to establish that a victim does not need to endure sexual harassment multiple times before the law will protect them?

I don't know what happened in the scenario in question and I'm not entirely clear on where the legal line is drawn, but from the posts in this thread I understood the idea of multiple incidents to include continued attempts after someone tries to walk away or asks the person to leave. Not necessarily incidents separated by a length of time. So if someone gives an indecent proposal and is told no but continues to ask, then that would qualify as harassment. Again, just my understanding.

I'll also say that I don't necessarily agree with that reasoning but rather I'm trying to understand the court's reasoning. I suspect most women would prefer that even one lewd request be considered harassment. Personally I don't know the right answer. I feel like there are certain things that shouldn't be OK to say even once, but I don't know if the law is the right way to correct that kind of behavior.

Right . . . but my example was an attempt to show that harassment doesn't require multiple attempts.  If I whip out my dick in front of you, I'm harassing you.  Full stop.  It would be weird if I get a free pass on that because I only did it to a lady once.

But if we've established that a single instance of harassment counts legally, then we really should just be arguing about whether what the guy said is harassment or not.

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2019, 03:07:12 PM »
Right . . . but my example was an attempt to show that harassment doesn't require multiple attempts.  If I whip out my dick in front of you, I'm harassing you.  Full stop.
Even on a Clothing-Optional Beach?

PKFFW

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2019, 06:54:30 PM »
But if we've established that a single instance of harassment counts legally, then we really should just be arguing about whether what the guy said is harassment or not.
I again admit to not knowing the full ruling of the particular case.  I'll also, again, reiterate that I do not condone the comments made.

However, I would say that, even if what the guy said is harassment, the series of tweets that Sandra Muller made, as reported in the article linked in the OP, are still untrue upon any reasonable reading.  The incident was apparently not work related in any way.  In law, details matter, and truth is only a defence if what you claim is actually true.

Davnasty

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2019, 08:30:17 PM »
Do most people not try to escape a situation of sexual harassment?  I'd assume that the woman being told that her big tits make the french guy horny also escaped his company at the soonest possible juncture.

I'm trying to establish that a victim does not need to endure sexual harassment multiple times before the law will protect them?

I don't know what happened in the scenario in question and I'm not entirely clear on where the legal line is drawn, but from the posts in this thread I understood the idea of multiple incidents to include continued attempts after someone tries to walk away or asks the person to leave. Not necessarily incidents separated by a length of time. So if someone gives an indecent proposal and is told no but continues to ask, then that would qualify as harassment. Again, just my understanding.

I'll also say that I don't necessarily agree with that reasoning but rather I'm trying to understand the court's reasoning. I suspect most women would prefer that even one lewd request be considered harassment. Personally I don't know the right answer. I feel like there are certain things that shouldn't be OK to say even once, but I don't know if the law is the right way to correct that kind of behavior.

Right . . . but my example was an attempt to show that harassment doesn't require multiple attempts.  If I whip out my dick in front of you, I'm harassing you.  Full stop.  It would be weird if I get a free pass on that because I only did it to a lady once.

But if we've established that a single instance of harassment counts legally, then we really should just be arguing about whether what the guy said is harassment or not.

In the comment you originally responded to

Typically under the law harassment is ongoing -- single incidents would rarely qualify.  But company policy is not the law.  A company can fire you for "harassment" if they want, they can define harassment in their own company policies and apply their own standards.  The French case in the link was decided by a court, under legal standards, not under company policy.  So it's important to say what standard is being used.

the word "incidents" was used and given the context I think they were referring to incidents of lewd flirtation like the one in question. They also said single incidents would "rarely" qualify. Your example would be a rare case. It's much more extreme and breaks other laws. They just aren't the same thing.

Just Joe

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2019, 11:06:02 AM »
Right . . . but my example was an attempt to show that harassment doesn't require multiple attempts.  If I whip out my dick in front of you, I'm harassing you.  Full stop.
Even on a Clothing-Optional Beach?

I'll be there are rules at those beaches. Catching a good all over tan is okay but intimate stuff is not. After all some beaches are clothing optional but family inclusive.

ericrugiero

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2019, 01:20:11 PM »
First - the comment made is not appropriate and I don't think that women should be required to accept statements like that.  They should not be penalized for reporting what happened. 

Second - some things are over the line even if done once and other things would be acceptable once but would be harassment if they were repeated. 

Third - she evidently claimed WORKPLACE harassment when it wasn't true.  That's not acceptable either.  A woman can ruin a man's career by a false accusation and if he can clearly show the claims were false then there should be consequences for her.  (yes, I know that it can work the other way too but there seems to be a double standard where women can get away with more in this area)

Hotstreak

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Re: Oh lala... didn't the French get the memo from America ???
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2019, 07:43:17 PM »
Do most people not try to escape a situation of sexual harassment?  I'd assume that the woman being told that her big tits make the french guy horny also escaped his company at the soonest possible juncture.

I'm trying to establish that a victim does not need to endure sexual harassment multiple times before the law will protect them?

I don't know what happened in the scenario in question and I'm not entirely clear on where the legal line is drawn, but from the posts in this thread I understood the idea of multiple incidents to include continued attempts after someone tries to walk away or asks the person to leave. Not necessarily incidents separated by a length of time. So if someone gives an indecent proposal and is told no but continues to ask, then that would qualify as harassment. Again, just my understanding.

I'll also say that I don't necessarily agree with that reasoning but rather I'm trying to understand the court's reasoning. I suspect most women would prefer that even one lewd request be considered harassment. Personally I don't know the right answer. I feel like there are certain things that shouldn't be OK to say even once, but I don't know if the law is the right way to correct that kind of behavior.

Right . . . but my example was an attempt to show that harassment doesn't require multiple attempts.  If I whip out my dick in front of you, I'm harassing you.  Full stop.  It would be weird if I get a free pass on that because I only did it to a lady once.

But if we've established that a single instance of harassment counts legally, then we really should just be arguing about whether what the guy said is harassment or not.


You are obnoxious, you are being deliberately obtuse, and you are not adding anything to the conversation.