NYT: Biden Mandates Vaccines for Workers, Saying, ‘Our Patience Is Wearing Thin’

[OtherJen]

At the monthly safety meeting today first thing out of the highest level manager was a rant on the Biden vaccine mandates and not to worry because the company is not going to enforce it and it will be a long time before it makes it through the courts if at all.

Closed the meeting by saying job safety is priority number one. The company, your family and friends are counting on you to work safely.

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Be a damn shame if someone were to report your employer to OSHA for workplace safety violations...

[ender]

Technically can't they do weekly testing instead and still comply with this?

[BoonDogle]

[MOD NOTE: Tyler Durden is banned]

U serious?

Whoah.

Echo chamber taking place here.

I will say, I’d like to know what he did that was a bannable offense. He was pretty irritating, true. But I haven’t seen anything that merited muting or banning him.

There were previous warning on previous topics, not just this one.  None of us make these decisions lightly.

Toque.

It is hard to imagine that this has to do with anything other than the fact that you disagree politically with him.  He was banned just a few days ago but I looked back on his posts for the last month and a half and see nothing other than respectful debate, though somewhat misguided.  He likes to post on politics and there is a lot to disagree with in there but I don't see anything worthy of a ban.  Please let us all know what was his undoing so we can avoid making the same mistake.

[Sibley]

Nurses' refusal to vaccinate has led a hospital system to pause maternity services. Guess what, antivaxxers, now you're putting women's and infants' lives in danger (since, honestly, no one unvaccinated should be around newborns. Jesus.). I am not feeling charitable towards these immature, selfish, unpatriotic assholes at all.

Lewis County Health System to “pause” maternity services due to staff unwilling to vaccinate (NNY360.com)

Don't have a firm source, but I did read that hospital was going to be closing their maternity ward due to declining birth rates anyway. I saw it on Reddit, and there was an article attached, but not even going to try to find it now.

That news about imminent closing would not fit the favored narrative here on MMM and elsewhere. Please stifle talk about that. We need to push the idea that mommies and babies cannot be served due to stupidity of health workers who will not get vaccinated.  Think about the children!

Yes, I am Big Mad at the moment but will get over it.

So you are saying it doesn't matter that these unvaccinated nurses are walking out because there wouldn't be any births there anyway?  Trying to understand what you are mad about.

In summary, and if the previous poster was correct:

An organization  planning to close it’s birthing support operation closes earlier rather than later.

This is not what I am Big Mad about, I am indifferent to this news story that takes political sides in which “side” it emphasizes.

Ah, the Big Mad is Tyler's ban, then?  Got it.

I guess I still see these nurses walking out as a bad thing.  They could potentially be rehired at another hospital and expose patients there.  It's my feeling that if a medical professional is too stupid to get vaccinated, they probably should have failed med school and shouldn't be anywhere near a patient.

I know nurses are hard to find and the profession is shortstaffed, but if the medical boards are letting people like this through then their gatekeeping role is obviously not working.   But that is just yet another are where American healthcare is breaking down.  I am reminded of the "This is fine" dog.

Unless I'm confusing my mandates (totally possible), Biden's mandate covered all health care. Unless I'm thinking of the IL governor's mandate. If they go get vaccinated, then sure they could be hired.

[iris lily]

Nurses' refusal to vaccinate has led a hospital system to pause maternity services. Guess what, antivaxxers, now you're putting women's and infants' lives in danger (since, honestly, no one unvaccinated should be around newborns. Jesus.). I am not feeling charitable towards these immature, selfish, unpatriotic assholes at all.

Lewis County Health System to “pause” maternity services due to staff unwilling to vaccinate (NNY360.com)

Don't have a firm source, but I did read that hospital was going to be closing their maternity ward due to declining birth rates anyway. I saw it on Reddit, and there was an article attached, but not even going to try to find it now.

That news about imminent closing would not fit the favored narrative here on MMM and elsewhere. Please stifle talk about that. We need to push the idea that mommies and babies cannot be served due to stupidity of health workers who will not get vaccinated.  Think about the children!

Yes, I am Big Mad at the moment but will get over it.

So you are saying it doesn't matter that these unvaccinated nurses are walking out because there wouldn't be any births there anyway?  Trying to understand what you are mad about.

In summary, and if the previous poster was correct:

An organization  planning to close it’s birthing support operation closes earlier rather than later.

This is not what I am Big Mad about, I am indifferent to this news story that takes political sides in which “side” it emphasizes.

Ah, the Big Mad is Tyler's ban, then?  Got it.

I guess I still see these nurses walking out as a bad thing.  They could potentially be rehired at another hospital and expose patients there.  It's my feeling that if a medical professional is too stupid to get vaccinated, they probably should have failed med school and shouldn't be anywhere near a patient.

I know nurses are hard to find and the profession is shortstaffed, but if the medical boards are letting people like this through then their gatekeeping role is obviously not working.   But that is just yet another are where American healthcare is breaking down.  I am reminded of the "This is fine" dog.

Nurses walking out, nurses not getting vaccines, nurses not following hospital inoculation protocols (absent documented health reasons) are”bad” as you say. I agree, but I do not see THIS as the example to be splashed across our country’s media circus. How many nurses we talking about? 2? 3? Likely a small number, but enough to throw a small operation into the weeds.

These nurses can find work elsewhere, aThough probably it is a shrinking employment market for them. I am not worried about them,  or the babies to be born, nor the birthing mothers. It will all happen.

I am more worried about the health professionals in the trenches who are becoming exhausted.

[bacchi]

[MOD NOTE: Tyler Durden is banned]

U serious?

Whoah.

Echo chamber taking place here.

I will say, I’d like to know what he did that was a bannable offense. He was pretty irritating, true. But I haven’t seen anything that merited muting or banning him.

There were previous warning on previous topics, not just this one.  None of us make these decisions lightly.

Toque.

It is hard to imagine that this has to do with anything other than the fact that you disagree politically with him.  He was banned just a few days ago but I looked back on his posts for the last month and a half and see nothing other than respectful debate, though somewhat misguided.  He likes to post on politics and there is a lot to disagree with in there but I don't see anything worthy of a ban.  Please let us all know what was his undoing so we can avoid making the same mistake.

Egregiously offensive posts are removed. Only slightly offensive ones have a strike through and a mod edit.

[bacchi]

Nurses' refusal to vaccinate has led a hospital system to pause maternity services. Guess what, antivaxxers, now you're putting women's and infants' lives in danger (since, honestly, no one unvaccinated should be around newborns. Jesus.). I am not feeling charitable towards these immature, selfish, unpatriotic assholes at all.

Lewis County Health System to “pause” maternity services due to staff unwilling to vaccinate (NNY360.com)

Don't have a firm source, but I did read that hospital was going to be closing their maternity ward due to declining birth rates anyway. I saw it on Reddit, and there was an article attached, but not even going to try to find it now.

That news about imminent closing would not fit the favored narrative here on MMM and elsewhere. Please stifle talk about that. We need to push the idea that mommies and babies cannot be served due to stupidity of health workers who will not get vaccinated.  Think about the children!

Yes, I am Big Mad at the moment but will get over it.

I also saw this thread on Reddit. It's certainly plausible, but there was no source given on an inveitable closure, just the word of some redditors.

So we're just assuming that the originally posted story was fake and that an unsourced reddit thread, with an unsourced source, is the REAL news? I'm not sure what to say about that.

[Kris]

Nurses' refusal to vaccinate has led a hospital system to pause maternity services. Guess what, antivaxxers, now you're putting women's and infants' lives in danger (since, honestly, no one unvaccinated should be around newborns. Jesus.). I am not feeling charitable towards these immature, selfish, unpatriotic assholes at all.

Lewis County Health System to “pause” maternity services due to staff unwilling to vaccinate (NNY360.com)

Don't have a firm source, but I did read that hospital was going to be closing their maternity ward due to declining birth rates anyway. I saw it on Reddit, and there was an article attached, but not even going to try to find it now.

That news about imminent closing would not fit the favored narrative here on MMM and elsewhere. Please stifle talk about that. We need to push the idea that mommies and babies cannot be served due to stupidity of health workers who will not get vaccinated.  Think about the children!

Yes, I am Big Mad at the moment but will get over it.

I also saw this thread on Reddit. It's certainly plausible, but there was no source given on an inveitable closure, just the word of some redditors.

So we're just assuming that the originally posted story was fake and that an unsourced reddit thread, with an unsourced source, is the REAL news? I'm not sure what to say about that.

It is a really odd thing to assume, especially as the CEO of the hospital himself said the reason for the "pause" was the resignations, and says he hopes the Department of Health will work with them to reopen the maternity ward.

[Psychstache]

Nurses' refusal to vaccinate has led a hospital system to pause maternity services. Guess what, antivaxxers, now you're putting women's and infants' lives in danger (since, honestly, no one unvaccinated should be around newborns. Jesus.). I am not feeling charitable towards these immature, selfish, unpatriotic assholes at all.

Lewis County Health System to “pause” maternity services due to staff unwilling to vaccinate (NNY360.com)

Don't have a firm source, but I did read that hospital was going to be closing their maternity ward due to declining birth rates anyway. I saw it on Reddit, and there was an article attached, but not even going to try to find it now.

That news about imminent closing would not fit the favored narrative here on MMM and elsewhere. Please stifle talk about that. We need to push the idea that mommies and babies cannot be served due to stupidity of health workers who will not get vaccinated.  Think about the children!

Yes, I am Big Mad at the moment but will get over it.

I also saw this thread on Reddit. It's certainly plausible, but there was no source given on an inveitable closure, just the word of some redditors.

So we're just assuming that the originally posted story was fake and that an unsourced reddit thread, with an unsourced source, is the REAL news? I'm not sure what to say about that.

I guess I wasn't clear in my original post. My point was that the Reddit information exists, but isn't reliable without further corroboration.

[iris lily]

Nurses' refusal to vaccinate has led a hospital system to pause maternity services. Guess what, antivaxxers, now you're putting women's and infants' lives in danger (since, honestly, no one unvaccinated should be around newborns. Jesus.). I am not feeling charitable towards these immature, selfish, unpatriotic assholes at all.

Lewis County Health System to “pause” maternity services due to staff unwilling to vaccinate (NNY360.com)

Don't have a firm source, but I did read that hospital was going to be closing their maternity ward due to declining birth rates anyway. I saw it on Reddit, and there was an article attached, but not even going to try to find it now.

That news about imminent closing would not fit the favored narrative here on MMM and elsewhere. Please stifle talk about that. We need to push the idea that mommies and babies cannot be served due to stupidity of health workers who will not get vaccinated.  Think about the children!

Yes, I am Big Mad at the moment but will get over it.

I also saw this thread on Reddit. It's certainly plausible, but there was no source given on an inveitable closure, just the word of some redditors.

So we're just assuming that the originally posted story was fake and that an unsourced reddit thread, with an unsourced source, is the REAL news? I'm not sure what to say about that.

It is a really odd thing to assume, especially as the CEO of the hospital himself said the reason for the "pause" was the resignations, and says he hopes the Department of Health will work with them to reopen the maternity ward.

Ok. If it s truth that the hospital had no plans to close its birthing center, that is the news story.

[Davnasty]

Nurses walking out, nurses not getting vaccines, nurses not following hospital inoculation protocols (absent documented health reasons) are”bad” as you say. I agree, but I do not see THIS as the example to be splashed across our country’s media circus. How many nurses we talking about? 2? 3? Likely a small number, but enough to throw a small operation into the weeds.

These nurses can find work elsewhere, aThough probably it is a shrinking employment market for them. I am not worried about them,  or the babies to be born, nor the birthing mothers. It will all happen.

I am more worried about the health professionals in the trenches who are becoming exhausted.

Sounds like you didn't actually read the article you're getting worked up about. Or the reddit discussion for that matter.

Then, as other posters have mentioned, you took the word of a reddit poster (source: unknown) over a local newspaper (source: CEO of the hospital). And sure, you said "if the previous poster was correct" at one point, but that unknown didn't stop you from attacking other posters and the forum at large for having a certain "narrative". I think it's pretty clear you are the one buying into narratives. Someone mentioned maybe, possibly one portion of the article was misleading and you latched right onto it because that fit your narrative that the media is biased. We all know you can't trust anything those liberal extremists over at the Watertown Daily Times put out. /s

[iris lily]

Nurses walking out, nurses not getting vaccines, nurses not following hospital inoculation protocols (absent documented health reasons) are”bad” as you say. I agree, but I do not see THIS as the example to be splashed across our country’s media circus. How many nurses we talking about? 2? 3? Likely a small number, but enough to throw a small operation into the weeds.

These nurses can find work elsewhere, aThough probably it is a shrinking employment market for them. I am not worried about them,  or the babies to be born, nor the birthing mothers. It will all happen.

I am more worried about the health professionals in the trenches who are becoming exhausted.

Sounds like you didn't actually read the article you're getting worked up about. Or the reddit discussion for that matter.

Then, as other posters have mentioned, you took the word of a reddit poster (source: unknown) over a local newspaper (source: CEO of the hospital). And sure, you said "if the previous poster was correct" at one point, but that unknown didn't stop you from attacking other posters and the forum at large for having a certain "narrative". I think it's pretty clear you are the one buying into narratives. Someone mentioned maybe, possibly one portion of the article was misleading and you latched right onto it because that fit your narrative that the media is biased. We all know you can't trust anything those liberal extremists over at the Watertown Daily Times put out. /s

I will accept much of what you say as criticism, but researching the mentioned Reddit thread isn’t possible.

[GodlessCommie]

I'm too lazy to find the actual poll, but recall that vaccine mandates poll pretty high. Like, way in the "politically safe, even beneficial" category high. As such, any blowback does not matter.

With the level of polarization we have, it's pointless to cater to the other side. It will just note that you caved, and move to pressure you more (as sad as this state of affairs is). So yes, there will be *some* resignations and some temporary disruptions. They will be well-covered by the conservative media, and a whole bunch of Republicans will raise a ton of $$$ in small donations. Maybe a nurse or a service member will raise to (likely, temporary) prominence over his or her resignation. And then it will become the new status quo, and we will move on to newer and better things to be mad at.

[Davnasty]

Nurses walking out, nurses not getting vaccines, nurses not following hospital inoculation protocols (absent documented health reasons) are”bad” as you say. I agree, but I do not see THIS as the example to be splashed across our country’s media circus. How many nurses we talking about? 2? 3? Likely a small number, but enough to throw a small operation into the weeds.

These nurses can find work elsewhere, aThough probably it is a shrinking employment market for them. I am not worried about them,  or the babies to be born, nor the birthing mothers. It will all happen.

I am more worried about the health professionals in the trenches who are becoming exhausted.

Sounds like you didn't actually read the article you're getting worked up about. Or the reddit discussion for that matter.

Then, as other posters have mentioned, you took the word of a reddit poster (source: unknown) over a local newspaper (source: CEO of the hospital). And sure, you said "if the previous poster was correct" at one point, but that unknown didn't stop you from attacking other posters and the forum at large for having a certain "narrative". I think it's pretty clear you are the one buying into narratives. Someone mentioned maybe, possibly one portion of the article was misleading and you latched right onto it because that fit your narrative that the media is biased. We all know you can't trust anything those liberal extremists over at the Watertown Daily Times put out. /s

I will accept much of what you say as criticism, but researching the mentioned Reddit thread isn’t possible.

Or necessary to be honest :) Whether or not an anecdotal story is slightly misleading or not doesn't really change much. Big picture, it sounds like we agree:

Nurses walking out, nurses not getting vaccines, nurses not following hospital inoculation protocols (absent documented health reasons) are”bad” as you say. I agree, but I do not see THIS as the example to be splashed across our country’s media circus. How many nurses we talking about? 2? 3? Likely a small number, but enough to throw a small operation into the weeds.

These nurses can find work elsewhere, aThough probably it is a shrinking employment market for them. I am not worried about them,  or the babies to be born, nor the birthing mothers. It will all happen.

I am more worried about the health professionals in the trenches who are becoming exhausted.

Anecdotes aren't nearly as important as hard data but unfortunately anecdotes are what it takes for some people to pay attention. That doesn't give the media a pass to take things out of context or be misleading, but it's something I try to keep in mind when I see the sensationalized headlines.

[PeteD01]

There is a hospital in NY state that will have to temporarily suspend delivery operations. The "closing" came into the picture most likely due to people not knowing that a minimum number of deliveries have to be performed for a hospital to maintain accreditation  for maternity operations. The CDEO mentioned that they will habe to work with the the Dept. of Health to prevent closing. That can only mean that their maternity service are small and they will need a waiver to restart operations. The maternity service belongs to Lewis County Health System.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/09/12/lewis-county-ny-hospital-pauses-maternity-unit-amid-vaccine-mandate/8311448002/

[ender]

There is a hospital in NY state that will have to temporarily suspend delivery operations. The "closing" came into the picture most likely due to people not knowing that a minimum number of deliveries have to be performed for a hospital to maintain accreditation  for maternity operations. The CDEO mentioned that they will habe to work with the the Dept. of Health to prevent closing. That can only mean that their maternity service are small and they will need a waiver to restart operations. The maternity service belongs to Lewis County Health System.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/09/12/lewis-county-ny-hospital-pauses-maternity-unit-amid-vaccine-mandate/8311448002/

This article was being discussed for the last two pages of the thread...

[OtherJen]

Nurses walking out, nurses not getting vaccines, nurses not following hospital inoculation protocols (absent documented health reasons) are”bad” as you say. I agree, but I do not see THIS as the example to be splashed across our country’s media circus. How many nurses we talking about? 2? 3? Likely a small number, but enough to throw a small operation into the weeds.

These nurses can find work elsewhere, aThough probably it is a shrinking employment market for them. I am not worried about them,  or the babies to be born, nor the birthing mothers. It will all happen.

I am more worried about the health professionals in the trenches who are becoming exhausted.

Sounds like you didn't actually read the article you're getting worked up about. Or the reddit discussion for that matter.

Then, as other posters have mentioned, you took the word of a reddit poster (source: unknown) over a local newspaper (source: CEO of the hospital). And sure, you said "if the previous poster was correct" at one point, but that unknown didn't stop you from attacking other posters and the forum at large for having a certain "narrative". I think it's pretty clear you are the one buying into narratives. Someone mentioned maybe, possibly one portion of the article was misleading and you latched right onto it because that fit your narrative that the media is biased. We all know you can't trust anything those liberal extremists over at the Watertown Daily Times put out. /s

I will accept much of what you say as criticism, but researching the mentioned Reddit thread isn’t possible.

Or necessary to be honest :) Whether or not an anecdotal story is slightly misleading or not doesn't really change much. Big picture, it sounds like we agree:

Nurses walking out, nurses not getting vaccines, nurses not following hospital inoculation protocols (absent documented health reasons) are”bad” as you say. I agree, but I do not see THIS as the example to be splashed across our country’s media circus. How many nurses we talking about? 2? 3? Likely a small number, but enough to throw a small operation into the weeds.

These nurses can find work elsewhere, aThough probably it is a shrinking employment market for them. I am not worried about them,  or the babies to be born, nor the birthing mothers. It will all happen.

I am more worried about the health professionals in the trenches who are becoming exhausted.

Anecdotes aren't nearly as important as hard data but unfortunately anecdotes are what it takes for some people to pay attention. That doesn't give the media a pass to take things out of context or be misleading, but it's something I try to keep in mind when I see the sensationalized headlines.

For the record, I didn't post an anecdote. I posted a published article from a local news outlet. Here's another one with direct quotes from the health system CEO: Hospital to stop delivering babies as maternity workers resign over vaccine mandate (WWNY)

LOWVILLE, New York (WWNY) - Lewis County General Hospital will stop delivering babies after September 24 because too many maternity unit workers have resigned over COVID vaccination mandates.

That’s according to Lewis County Health System Chief Executive Officer Gerald Cayer, who held a news conference Friday in Lowville.

He said 6 employees in the maternity unit resigned rather than get a COVID shot and another 7 are undecided.

According to Cayer, the hospital will be unable to safely staff the unit and will pause delivering babies after September 24.

He said he hopes this is a temporary situation and will work with the state Department of Health to make sure the unit won’t permanently close.

“If we can pause the service and now focus on recruiting nurses who are vaccinated, we will be able to reengage in delivering babies here in Lewis County,” said Cayer.

Cayer said 165 hospital employees have yet to be vaccinated against COVID-19; that’s 27 percent of the workforce.

[Davnasty]

For the record, I didn't post an anecdote. I posted a published article from a local news outlet. Here's another one with direct quotes from the health system CEO:

Anecdote probably wasn't the best choice of words for this news story but I think it's technically correct - Not so much in reference to the article as a whole, but to the closing down of the maternity unit.

From Wikipedia: An anecdote is a brief, revealing account of an individual person or an incident: "a story with a point,"

My choice of words was to distinguish more generally between anecdotes and data, and how they are presented by the media.

[PeteD01]

There is a hospital in NY state that will have to temporarily suspend delivery operations. The "closing" came into the picture most likely due to people not knowing that a minimum number of deliveries have to be performed for a hospital to maintain accreditation  for maternity operations. The CDEO mentioned that they will habe to work with the the Dept. of Health to prevent closing. That can only mean that their maternity service are small and they will need a waiver to restart operations. The maternity service belongs to Lewis County Health System.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/09/12/lewis-county-ny-hospital-pauses-maternity-unit-amid-vaccine-mandate/8311448002/

This article was being discussed for the last two pages of the thread...

I´m seeing only a lot of nonsense about Reddit and misinformation and infowars etc., and that seems to have been precipitated by someone thinking the maternity services were about to close anyways. Seems to be a misunderstanding about how maternity service accreditation works.
And yes, if the service in question falls below the critical number of deliveries it might have to close permanently if a waiver cannot be obtained.
That is a much more concerning result of the staff resigning than a temporary suspension of the service and that fits into the larger concern that the transformation of rural areas into health care deserts is accelerating due to COVID.
That is also so far the most serious unintended consequence of the Biden orders I have heard of.
I really do not think that the journalists got the story straight on this one.
It is also far from an anecdote as one can easily imagine that this is just the beginning of a series of closures of smaller operations in rural areas which are much more vulnerable to staff walking out - and that is not just due to the size of the operations but also because their staff could possibly be more likely to refuse vaccines as they more likely to belong to demographics that refuse vaccinations.
What you got here is possibly the first evidence that those who protest the vaccine mandates the loudest are indeed the ones who have to bear the most negative consequences. This has to taken seriously and has to be addressed if it bears out.

edit: The story is getting more traction with more detailed information coming out. This kind of situation is going play out in many places in rural America.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/12/health/ny-hospital-pausing-baby-deliveries-covid-19-resignations/index.html

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

https://www.ewg.org/sunscreen/report/executive-summary/
"Four studies published in 2020, after the FDA proposal, support previous findings that oxybenzone can act as an endocrine disruptor and may increase the risk of breast cancer and endometriosis.
....
The FDA proposed that all spray and powdered sunscreens be tested to ensure they cannot be inhaled deep into the lungs, where they could do irreversible damage. In pilot testing, the agency found that three of 14 sprays would not meet its proposed standard but did not say which products consumers should avoid. EWG recommends that consumers avoid all spray and powder sunscreen products."

Interesting (and unrelated to your previous comment) tidbit . . . the EWG is not a scientific group and has a history of getting it's facts and information wrong.  It's also heavily funded by the organic lobby.

I just found that out last year, previously had thought that they were pretty legit.

The FDA is open in that it is investigating around a dozen common additives to sunscreens for which no clear safety data exists. Here is one study that showsthat several active ingredients end up in the blood in concentrations that warrant further study:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2759002

Note that the 6 compounds examined have not been found to be generally safe and effective, so the possible effects are unknown. They may be perfectly benign but I wouldn't categorize someone concerned about these compounds as a nutjob.

Regarding the specific claim of skin cancer, I would think slathering your body with a known carcinogen (benzene) would elevate one's risk, but let's wait for the peer reviewed randomized control study, I guess.

It's weird to me that the bluish-grey tribe on MM are so soft on safety regulation.

[Davnasty]

https://www.ewg.org/sunscreen/report/executive-summary/
"Four studies published in 2020, after the FDA proposal, support previous findings that oxybenzone can act as an endocrine disruptor and may increase the risk of breast cancer and endometriosis.
....
The FDA proposed that all spray and powdered sunscreens be tested to ensure they cannot be inhaled deep into the lungs, where they could do irreversible damage. In pilot testing, the agency found that three of 14 sprays would not meet its proposed standard but did not say which products consumers should avoid. EWG recommends that consumers avoid all spray and powder sunscreen products."

Interesting (and unrelated to your previous comment) tidbit . . . the EWG is not a scientific group and has a history of getting it's facts and information wrong.  It's also heavily funded by the organic lobby.

I just found that out last year, previously had thought that they were pretty legit.

The FDA is open in that it is investigating around a dozen common additives to sunscreens for which no clear safety data exists. Here is one study that showsthat several active ingredients end up in the blood in concentrations that warrant further study:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2759002

Note that the 6 compounds examined have not been found to be generally safe and effective, so the possible effects are unknown. They may be perfectly benign but I wouldn't categorize someone concerned about these compounds as a nutjob.

Regarding the specific claim of skin cancer, I would think slathering your body with a known carcinogen (benzene) would elevate one's risk, but let's wait for the peer reviewed randomized control study, I guess.

It's weird to me that the bluish-grey tribe on MM are so soft on safety regulation.

You started this tangent because someone's coworker claimed sunblock* gave them cancer. While it may plausibly have some relation to their cancer, stating it as fact is ridiculous. Your response launched into a very off topic discussion of recent studies on sunscreen contaminants. Kinda sounds like you want to discuss the studies and you were looking for an in. If you'd like to discuss the safety of sunscreen and potential contaminates, I'd recommend starting a new thread.

*Kris used the term sunblock which specifically refers to products that use titanium oxide and zinc oxide. Then you claimed you used the safer alternative, Tio2. to be fair, many people use the terms incorrectly, but since you wanted to get technical...

[GuitarStv]

https://www.ewg.org/sunscreen/report/executive-summary/
"Four studies published in 2020, after the FDA proposal, support previous findings that oxybenzone can act as an endocrine disruptor and may increase the risk of breast cancer and endometriosis.
....
The FDA proposed that all spray and powdered sunscreens be tested to ensure they cannot be inhaled deep into the lungs, where they could do irreversible damage. In pilot testing, the agency found that three of 14 sprays would not meet its proposed standard but did not say which products consumers should avoid. EWG recommends that consumers avoid all spray and powder sunscreen products."

Interesting (and unrelated to your previous comment) tidbit . . . the EWG is not a scientific group and has a history of getting it's facts and information wrong.  It's also heavily funded by the organic lobby.

I just found that out last year, previously had thought that they were pretty legit.

The FDA is open in that it is investigating around a dozen common additives to sunscreens for which no clear safety data exists. Here is one study that shows that several active ingredients end up in the blood in concentrations that warrant further study:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2759002

First, I just want to say that I wholeheartedly agree that research into the additives in sunscreen should continue, particularly given any preliminary data that shows possible carcinogenic or toxic effects.  That's how we learn if there really is reason for concern or not.

I also want to point out the conclusion of the study that you linked:
"In this study conducted in a clinical pharmacology unit and examining sunscreen application among healthy participants, all 6 of the tested active ingredients administered in 4 different sunscreen formulations were systemically absorbed and had plasma concentrations that surpassed the FDA threshold for potentially waiving some of the additional safety studies for sunscreens. These findings do not indicate that individuals should refrain from the use of sunscreen."

Note that the 6 compounds examined have not been found to be generally safe and effective, so the possible effects are unknown. They may be perfectly benign but I wouldn't categorize someone concerned about these compounds as a nutjob.

I wouldn't categorize someone concerned about these compounds as a nutjob either.

Unless they're advocating soaking up lots of the sun's rays into their skin without using any sunscreen.  Because that would be advocating for accepting a well studied and known carcinogen (sunlight) out of fears of a possibly unknown one being bad.  While I definitely want the research on possible problems with chemicals in sunscreen to be done, with the information that we have at the moment the balance of safety lies in wearing sunscreen if you can't avoid being in the sun or covering up.

Regarding the specific claim of skin cancer, I would think slathering your body with a known carcinogen (benzene) would elevate one's risk, but let's wait for the peer reviewed randomized control study, I guess.

Benzene is indeed a known carcinogen.  It's not a good thing to inhale or smear on your skin.  But benzene is one of the top twenty chemicals by volume produced in the United States.  Benzene is present anywhere you go - trace amounts are found in the exhaust of vehicles, cigarette smoke, in hand sanitizer, soft drinks.  In the home it's found in glue, wax, paint, and detergents.  We are surrounded by benzene!  Have trace amounts of benzene been found that shouldn't have been there in certain types of sunscreen?  Yep, there was a Valisure study that found some.

So how bad is it?

Applying the sunscreen with the highest amounts of benzene found in the Valisure study is roughly equivalent to half the amount of benzene you would get by breathing the air in a city during the day.
 https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/benzene-sunscreen-safe-carcinogen-/2021/06/04/33723cb6-c55f-11eb-9a8d-f95d7724967c_story.html.

Are you more than twice as concerned about the health risks from air every time you enter a city than when putting on sunscreen?  If not, then you may not fully understand the risks you're taking.

It's weird to me that the bluish-grey tribe on MM are so soft on safety regulation.

I don't believe that I'm soft on safety regulation at all.  But it's important to follow the science, and not get swept up in unfounded speculation.

[the_fixer]

At the monthly safety meeting today first thing out of the highest level manager was a rant on the Biden vaccine mandates and not to worry because the company is not going to enforce it and it will be a long time before it makes it through the courts if at all.

Closed the meeting by saying job safety is priority number one. The company, your family and friends are counting on you to work safely.

Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees…


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Be a damn shame if someone were to report your employer to OSHA for workplace safety violations...

Agreed :)

Weekly testing or mandate either way it would be better than how it is now we will have to see what happens when / if a firm date comes around.

I honestly did a happy dance when Biden announced it thinking that things might get less dreadful at work.


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[PeteD01]

Fresh from the trenches, posted today by one of my former trainees on Facebook:

"I don’t know how much longer I can keep posting about covid. I can’t burn this candle at both ends or I won’t have anything left of me in the middle. I will probably post here and there, but I have to do other things when I am off, else I will fade away.
I just finished one of the busiest weeks of my life. I lost count of how many people I put on life support, but I do remember how many died. Too many.
We did a few tracheostomy’s. A few codes I think. It’s starting to run together. I definitely have put in 2 or 4 chest tubes in the past 3 days. I intubated a 20 year old today. He has a chest tube in each side.
Yesterday my partner put three people on ecmo. We don’t have anymore ecmo now. I told him if the 20 year old needed ecmo, I was taking the oldest person”s circuit for him. I wasn’t joking. Sorry everyone else. Good luck. We don’t have any more.
I don’t understand why a person would knowingly avoid the vaccine when they are immune suppressed. I have had exactly 0 people survive severe Covid who are immune suppressed and unvaccinated. Zero.
I also don’t understand why any older people would not be vaccinated. I have had 1 unvaccinated person over the age of 80 survive severe covid. One.
I generally don’t like to weigh into the politics of covid. I know medicine is true, politicians are just liars. I was, however, asked about my opinion regarding vaccine mandates. This is my reply.
I had a patient who had a kidney transplant. Let’s call her Gale. She stayed in her house for a year. She never left. Not one time. Then,  she got the vaccine. Covid rates went down. She went out. Unfortunately, everyone didn’t get the shot. Someone she loved wasn’t vaccinated and got covid, then gave it to her. Because she had a kidney transplant, she was on immune suppression. She died of covid.
In the Declaration of Independence, we were promised that all men (and women) possess the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Where is Gale’s life? Where is Gale’s liberty? She was scared when she went on life support. No Happiness there.
Heck. I almost forgot. I extubated some lady today and her throat closed shut. Probably third hardest airway I have got into. The other two are dead."

[Sibley]

Nurses' refusal to vaccinate has led a hospital system to pause maternity services. Guess what, antivaxxers, now you're putting women's and infants' lives in danger (since, honestly, no one unvaccinated should be around newborns. Jesus.). I am not feeling charitable towards these immature, selfish, unpatriotic assholes at all.

Lewis County Health System to “pause” maternity services due to staff unwilling to vaccinate (NNY360.com)

Don't have a firm source, but I did read that hospital was going to be closing their maternity ward due to declining birth rates anyway. I saw it on Reddit, and there was an article attached, but not even going to try to find it now.

That news about imminent closing would not fit the favored narrative here on MMM and elsewhere. Please stifle talk about that. We need to push the idea that mommies and babies cannot be served due to stupidity of health workers who will not get vaccinated.  Think about the children!

Yes, I am Big Mad at the moment but will get over it.

I also saw this thread on Reddit. It's certainly plausible, but there was no source given on an inveitable closure, just the word of some redditors.

So we're just assuming that the originally posted story was fake and that an unsourced reddit thread, with an unsourced source, is the REAL news? I'm not sure what to say about that.

I guess I wasn't clear in my original post. My point was that the Reddit information exists, but isn't reliable without further corroboration.

As the person who originally mentioned that reddit post - I think I was pretty clear that I didn't have a firm source on it. Nor frankly, do I care to spend much time hunting down some info which may or may be available, about a small hospital hundreds of miles from me.

Also please note that the CEO may not have told the entire truth. Why would he? If they were going to be closing down the ward due to lower birth rates, this gives them some political cover to do so.  If they weren't planning on closing it, then they can open it back up once they have staffing.

But I also don't want unvaccinated nurses around newborns.

Edit: someone else posted article(s) about that hospital. I haven't had time to read them yet, but I will later. Based on the commentary that they posted, it's likely much more complicated than I was aware of. I know almost nothing about hospital accreditation.

[JGS1980]

Fresh from the trenches, posted today by one of my former trainees on Facebook:

"I don’t know how much longer I can keep posting about covid. I can’t burn this candle at both ends or I won’t have anything left of me in the middle. I will probably post here and there, but I have to do other things when I am off, else I will fade away.
I just finished one of the busiest weeks of my life. I lost count of how many people I put on life support, but I do remember how many died. Too many.
We did a few tracheostomy’s. A few codes I think. It’s starting to run together. I definitely have put in 2 or 4 chest tubes in the past 3 days. I intubated a 20 year old today. He has a chest tube in each side.
Yesterday my partner put three people on ecmo. We don’t have anymore ecmo now. I told him if the 20 year old needed ecmo, I was taking the oldest person”s circuit for him. I wasn’t joking. Sorry everyone else. Good luck. We don’t have any more.
I don’t understand why a person would knowingly avoid the vaccine when they are immune suppressed. I have had exactly 0 people survive severe Covid who are immune suppressed and unvaccinated. Zero.
I also don’t understand why any older people would not be vaccinated. I have had 1 unvaccinated person over the age of 80 survive severe covid. One.
I generally don’t like to weigh into the politics of covid. I know medicine is true, politicians are just liars. I was, however, asked about my opinion regarding vaccine mandates. This is my reply.
I had a patient who had a kidney transplant. Let’s call her Gale. She stayed in her house for a year. She never left. Not one time. Then,  she got the vaccine. Covid rates went down. She went out. Unfortunately, everyone didn’t get the shot. Someone she loved wasn’t vaccinated and got covid, then gave it to her. Because she had a kidney transplant, she was on immune suppression. She died of covid.
In the Declaration of Independence, we were promised that all men (and women) possess the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Where is Gale’s life? Where is Gale’s liberty? She was scared when she went on life support. No Happiness there.
Heck. I almost forgot. I extubated some lady today and her throat closed shut. Probably third hardest airway I have got into. The other two are dead."

Thank you for posting this. Also accolades to Abe up top. From a front line PCP.

JGS

[PeteD01]

Nurses' refusal to vaccinate has led a hospital system to pause maternity services. Guess what, antivaxxers, now you're putting women's and infants' lives in danger (since, honestly, no one unvaccinated should be around newborns. Jesus.). I am not feeling charitable towards these immature, selfish, unpatriotic assholes at all.

Lewis County Health System to “pause” maternity services due to staff unwilling to vaccinate (NNY360.com)

Don't have a firm source, but I did read that hospital was going to be closing their maternity ward due to declining birth rates anyway. I saw it on Reddit, and there was an article attached, but not even going to try to find it now.

That news about imminent closing would not fit the favored narrative here on MMM and elsewhere. Please stifle talk about that. We need to push the idea that mommies and babies cannot be served due to stupidity of health workers who will not get vaccinated.  Think about the children!

Yes, I am Big Mad at the moment but will get over it.

I also saw this thread on Reddit. It's certainly plausible, but there was no source given on an inveitable closure, just the word of some redditors.

So we're just assuming that the originally posted story was fake and that an unsourced reddit thread, with an unsourced source, is the REAL news? I'm not sure what to say about that.

I guess I wasn't clear in my original post. My point was that the Reddit information exists, but isn't reliable without further corroboration.

As the person who originally mentioned that reddit post - I think I was pretty clear that I didn't have a firm source on it. Nor frankly, do I care to spend much time hunting down some info which may or may be available, about a small hospital hundreds of miles from me.

Also please note that the CEO may not have told the entire truth. Why would he? If they were going to be closing down the ward due to lower birth rates, this gives them some political cover to do so.  If they weren't planning on closing it, then they can open it back up once they have staffing.

But I also don't want unvaccinated nurses around newborns.

You are absolutely wrong about this.
Gerald Cayer is the CEO is running a small rural health system in Lewis County in upstate NY which also happens to be the largest employer there. Lewis county is not an easy place to live and make a living.
Maternity services fall broadly into primary care/women´s reproductive health services. If Lewis County Health System loses their maternity service, it will have lost the ability to provide full service health care to the community. It really would be a crushing blow.
I see that you don´t care about a small rural hospital hundreds of miles from you.
Not a good attitude, and one which is responsible for a lot of the troubles we are currently facing.
FYI. I worked for four years for a large heath system in economically depressed upstate NY, so I know a little bit about the problems there.

[Gin1984]

^^^^^^^^

Assuming it mutates into less virulent strains.  No evidence of that so far.  For the biologists etc out there, is it possible that Delta (or worse) will be the most common strain? And "dominant" does not necessarily mean most prevalent, does it?  Doesn't it depend on the number of other strains circulating and their relative proportions?

Unlikely.  A strain is dominant if it is 50% of the infections in that area.  So a more virulent strain can become more dominant quickly.  However, during that time, it continues to mutate. Those strains can be more or less virulent and more or less deadly.

[teen persuasion]

There is a hospital in NY state that will have to temporarily suspend delivery operations. The "closing" came into the picture most likely due to people not knowing that a minimum number of deliveries have to be performed for a hospital to maintain accreditation  for maternity operations. The CDEO mentioned that they will habe to work with the the Dept. of Health to prevent closing. That can only mean that their maternity service are small and they will need a waiver to restart operations. The maternity service belongs to Lewis County Health System.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/09/12/lewis-county-ny-hospital-pauses-maternity-unit-amid-vaccine-mandate/8311448002/

This article was being discussed for the last two pages of the thread...

I´m seeing only a lot of nonsense about Reddit and misinformation and infowars etc., and that seems to have been precipitated by someone thinking the maternity services were about to close anyways. Seems to be a misunderstanding about how maternity service accreditation works.
And yes, if the service in question falls below the critical number of deliveries it might have to close permanently if a waiver cannot be obtained.
That is a much more concerning result of the staff resigning than a temporary suspension of the service and that fits into the larger concern that the transformation of rural areas into health care deserts is accelerating due to COVID.
That is also so far the most serious unintended consequence of the Biden orders I have heard of.
I really do not think that the journalists got the story straight on this one.
It is also far from an anecdote as one can easily imagine that this is just the beginning of a series of closures of smaller operations in rural areas which are much more vulnerable to staff walking out - and that is not just due to the size of the operations but also because their staff could possibly be more likely to refuse vaccines as they more likely to belong to demographics that refuse vaccinations.
What you got here is possibly the first evidence that those who protest the vaccine mandates the loudest are indeed the ones who have to bear the most negative consequences. This has to taken seriously and has to be addressed if it bears out.

edit: The story is getting more traction with more detailed information coming out. This kind of situation is going play out in many places in rural America.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/12/health/ny-hospital-pausing-baby-deliveries-covid-19-resignations/index.html

This was an issue BEFORE Covid in my area of rural NYS, too.  The lone hospital in the county east of us, where I had 2 of my kids, closed its maternity ward more than a decade ago.  Two or three years ago, the last standing regional hospital in my county seat closed its maternity ward due to declining birth rates.  Even 16 years ago, I deliberately chose to deliver DS5 at a hospital in the larger metro county an hour to our south (at the recommendation of my OB) due to the lack of a NICU in our county seat hospital.

A year ago, my DH had one of the last surgeries at that county seat hospital.  We only learned they were ending surgeries when we saw a goodbye article in the small local paper.  Never heard a peep about those plans on big metro city/regional tv news.

The fewer services they offer, the fewer people go to that hospital, and the more business it loses, the more services they cut.  But the big metro keeps concentrating it's multiple hospitals closer and closer in downtown, against the lakefront.  Eight counties in the region, and nearly all the hospitals are now in the city.  Wouldn't it make more sense to evenly distribute them thruout the region, instead?  I'm just waiting for some traffic disaster in the medical corridor to make them unusable/inaccessible.

[Abe]

Those hospitals are closing due to lack of money. Poor counties have limited resources to prop open the hospitals, however meager their capabilities and thus costs. Like most things in our country, it is market forces driving this change. Frankly a sparsely populated county whose population is gradually dying out is not a great source of long-term revenue for a hospital. In order to support the hospital, taxes would need to be raised. And you know how rural areas (in general) feel about taxes. It’s cheaper to have an ambulance service take patients to a central location.

I do think the general covid craziness will further accelerate this trend. One reason is that physicians will be even more reluctant to work in anti-vax locales (thinking forward to the next epidemic).

[DadJokes]

Nurses walking out, nurses not getting vaccines, nurses not following hospital inoculation protocols (absent documented health reasons) are”bad” as you say. I agree, but I do not see THIS as the example to be splashed across our country’s media circus. How many nurses we talking about? 2? 3? Likely a small number, but enough to throw a small operation into the weeds.

These nurses can find work elsewhere, aThough probably it is a shrinking employment market for them. I am not worried about them,  or the babies to be born, nor the birthing mothers. It will all happen.

I am more worried about the health professionals in the trenches who are becoming exhausted.

Sounds like you didn't actually read the article you're getting worked up about. Or the reddit discussion for that matter.

Then, as other posters have mentioned, you took the word of a reddit poster (source: unknown) over a local newspaper (source: CEO of the hospital). And sure, you said "if the previous poster was correct" at one point, but that unknown didn't stop you from attacking other posters and the forum at large for having a certain "narrative". I think it's pretty clear you are the one buying into narratives. Someone mentioned maybe, possibly one portion of the article was misleading and you latched right onto it because that fit your narrative that the media is biased. We all know you can't trust anything those liberal extremists over at the Watertown Daily Times put out. /s

I will accept much of what you say as criticism, but researching the mentioned Reddit thread isn’t possible.

I hunted through a few Reddit threads discussing the article. This was all that I could find:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/pmetow/ny_hospital_to_pause_baby_deliveries_after/hcj2yf0/

[Fireball]

Two anecdotes from my little social circle-

Sis-in-law is a traveling nurse and currently working in TX.  Firmly in the "don't trust this rushed vaccine, instead take vitamins and zinc to strengthen the immune system" camp. She got the Pfizer vaccine this week thanks to Biden's Medicare/Medicaid healthcare worker mandate. Guess what? She survived the jab. Way to go, Joe.

A lady friend of mine who is a nurse had resisted taking the vaccine for months, but also had to get it due to the healthcare worker mandate. Eight days after she took the vaccine she was short of breath and had pain in her leg so she went to the doc thinking it was vaccine related side effects. They didn't find anything related to the vaccine, but DID find a 4 inch tumor attached to her liver that they're going to surgically remove.

In summary, I'm sure some healthcare workers will resign, but most will get vaccinated like these two in order to save the high paying job that they invested thousands of hours of education and training into.

[ChpBstrd]

IDK if I'd want to be treated by someone who gets their healthcare science information from social media influencers. If they didn't infect you with COVID, they'd kill you with their bad judgment some other way. They'd find "one simple trick..."

[jrhampt]

Two anecdotes from my little social circle-

Sis-in-law is a traveling nurse and currently working in TX.  Firmly in the "don't trust this rushed vaccine, instead take vitamins and zinc to strengthen the immune system" camp. She got the Pfizer vaccine this week thanks to Biden's Medicare/Medicaid healthcare worker mandate. Guess what? She survived the jab. Way to go, Joe.

A lady friend of mine who is a nurse had resisted taking the vaccine for months, but also had to get it due to the healthcare worker mandate. Eight days after she took the vaccine she was short of breath and had pain in her leg so she went to the doc thinking it was vaccine related side effects. They didn't find anything related to the vaccine, but DID find a 4 inch tumor attached to her liver that they're going to surgically remove.

In summary, I'm sure some healthcare workers will resign, but most will get vaccinated like these two in order to save the high paying job that they invested thousands of hours of education and training into.

Excellent.  This is exactly what I think will happen.  End result - safer country, less strained hospital systems, and more people vaccinated.

[EvenSteven]

Two anecdotes from my little social circle-

Sis-in-law is a traveling nurse and currently working in TX.  Firmly in the "don't trust this rushed vaccine, instead take vitamins and zinc to strengthen the immune system" camp. She got the Pfizer vaccine this week thanks to Biden's Medicare/Medicaid healthcare worker mandate. Guess what? She survived the jab. Way to go, Joe.

A lady friend of mine who is a nurse had resisted taking the vaccine for months, but also had to get it due to the healthcare worker mandate. Eight days after she took the vaccine she was short of breath and had pain in her leg so she went to the doc thinking it was vaccine related side effects. They didn't find anything related to the vaccine, but DID find a 4 inch tumor attached to her liver that they're going to surgically remove.

In summary, I'm sure some healthcare workers will resign, but most will get vaccinated like these two in order to save the high paying job that they invested thousands of hours of education and training into.

If the vaccine can give you a 4 inch liver tumor in only 8 days, just think of what the long term side effects might be!

/s

[SunnyDays]

Two anecdotes from my little social circle-

Sis-in-law is a traveling nurse and currently working in TX.  Firmly in the "don't trust this rushed vaccine, instead take vitamins and zinc to strengthen the immune system" camp. She got the Pfizer vaccine this week thanks to Biden's Medicare/Medicaid healthcare worker mandate. Guess what? She survived the jab. Way to go, Joe.

A lady friend of mine who is a nurse had resisted taking the vaccine for months, but also had to get it due to the healthcare worker mandate. Eight days after she took the vaccine she was short of breath and had pain in her leg so she went to the doc thinking it was vaccine related side effects. They didn't find anything related to the vaccine, but DID find a 4 inch tumor attached to her liver that they're going to surgically remove.

In summary, I'm sure some healthcare workers will resign, but most will get vaccinated like these two in order to save the high paying job that they invested thousands of hours of education and training into.

I wonder if she will get the surgery in a timely fashion or if all the unvaccinated will be taking up beds and staff?  Sometimes you really do reap what you sow.

[mm1970]

+1 to Pete and Abe for sharing.

[PDXTabs]

In summary, I'm sure some healthcare workers will resign, but most will get vaccinated like these two in order to save the high paying job that they invested thousands of hours of education and training into.

The WA executive order requires retail pharmacy techs to get the vaccine, but not the clerks who work 15 feet away in the non-pharmacy department. I'm sure that some of those pharmacy techs are going to resign. The pay and working conditions aren't actually all that good.

[mm1970]

Those hospitals are closing due to lack of money. Poor counties have limited resources to prop open the hospitals, however meager their capabilities and thus costs. Like most things in our country, it is market forces driving this change. Frankly a sparsely populated county whose population is gradually dying out is not a great source of long-term revenue for a hospital. In order to support the hospital, taxes would need to be raised. And you know how rural areas (in general) feel about taxes. It’s cheaper to have an ambulance service take patients to a central location.

I do think the general covid craziness will further accelerate this trend. One reason is that physicians will be even more reluctant to work in anti-vax locales (thinking forward to the next epidemic).

Yep.  My home county is very rural.  The population keeps declining, and it's down 10% from 1980.  It will continue to decline, as most of the people in the county are retirement age.  My niece's high school class has 1/3 the number of students that I had 35-40 years ago.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

Two anecdotes from my little social circle-

Sis-in-law is a traveling nurse and currently working in TX.  Firmly in the "don't trust this rushed vaccine, instead take vitamins and zinc to strengthen the immune system" camp. She got the Pfizer vaccine this week thanks to Biden's Medicare/Medicaid healthcare worker mandate. Guess what? She survived the jab. Way to go, Joe.

A lady friend of mine who is a nurse had resisted taking the vaccine for months, but also had to get it due to the healthcare worker mandate. Eight days after she took the vaccine she was short of breath and had pain in her leg so she went to the doc thinking it was vaccine related side effects. They didn't find anything related to the vaccine, but DID find a 4 inch tumor attached to her liver that they're going to surgically remove.

In summary, I'm sure some healthcare workers will resign, but most will get vaccinated like these two in order to save the high paying job that they invested thousands of hours of education and training into.

Excellent.  This is exactly what I think will happen.  End result - safer country, less strained hospital systems, and more people vaccinated.

I hope you are right. I will say that the high paying part of the job (from the previous post) is a bit of a stretch. Nurses with 4 year degrees are getting paid maybe a few bucks an hour more than the starting salary for an hourly person at a manufacturing plant with a lot less responsibility and dealing with a lot less crap. This is also not counting the people on burnout, who are retiring early, who would leave even without losing more nurses and making it worse.

End result could be safer country, less strained hospital systems, and more people vaccinated. It could also be much more strained hospital for a significant period of time, worst case having a hard time finding nursing staff for years to come. I hope your end result is what comes about.

[J Boogie]

IDK if I'd want to be treated by someone who gets their healthcare science information from social media influencers. If they didn't infect you with COVID, they'd kill you with their bad judgment some other way. They'd find "one simple trick..."

I have a sister in law who posted stuff along the lines of a link to the plandemic movie, something positive about the proud boys (I'm chuckling as I say this), you get the idea - and she just graduated with a degree in nutrition and plans to become a nutritionist. I thought I remembered hearing her or her husband mention she planned on applying at clinics, hospitals, etc.

My first thought was that her social media posts were going to function as an easy way for potential employers to screen her out. Now its sinking in that she wouldn't accept employment at a mainstream health clinic/hospital.

I generally recall gen X and older conservatives valuing their privacy over everything and shunning social media sharing as foolishly trading away your privacy in ways that could negatively affect your employment. Now it seems that's not as unintended of a consequence as I thought. It's almost as if people of this tribe no longer want to exist in spaces that are not specifically designated as being for their tribe. Which, for me, living in the city, I kind of understand how you might feel alone in a sea of Biden/BLM/pride signs everywhere as the water you swim in.

But now even the regular waters of, you know, healthcare and business, seem hostile to them.

I hope we can come together over something and somehow all get on the same page at some point.

[teen persuasion]

News that a different rural hospital system (another region in NYS) had 11 nurses quit over the mandate.  But that's just the tip of the iceberg - they have 250 employees unvaccinated as of yet.  If all of them quit, they have an emergency, and have to limit services.

News went on to list vaccination rates at several hospitals in the metro area.  Big, shiny, newly relocated to downtown Children's hospital had 100%, but a satellite hospital site near my parents was only 46% (in a wealthy suburb).  WTH?

[lost_in_the_endless_aisle]

https://www.ewg.org/sunscreen/report/executive-summary/
"Four studies published in 2020, after the FDA proposal, support previous findings that oxybenzone can act as an endocrine disruptor and may increase the risk of breast cancer and endometriosis.
....
The FDA proposed that all spray and powdered sunscreens be tested to ensure they cannot be inhaled deep into the lungs, where they could do irreversible damage. In pilot testing, the agency found that three of 14 sprays would not meet its proposed standard but did not say which products consumers should avoid. EWG recommends that consumers avoid all spray and powder sunscreen products."

Interesting (and unrelated to your previous comment) tidbit . . . the EWG is not a scientific group and has a history of getting it's facts and information wrong.  It's also heavily funded by the organic lobby.

I just found that out last year, previously had thought that they were pretty legit.

The FDA is open in that it is investigating around a dozen common additives to sunscreens for which no clear safety data exists. Here is one study that shows that several active ingredients end up in the blood in concentrations that warrant further study:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2759002

First, I just want to say that I wholeheartedly agree that research into the additives in sunscreen should continue, particularly given any preliminary data that shows possible carcinogenic or toxic effects.  That's how we learn if there really is reason for concern or not.

I also want to point out the conclusion of the study that you linked:
"In this study conducted in a clinical pharmacology unit and examining sunscreen application among healthy participants, all 6 of the tested active ingredients administered in 4 different sunscreen formulations were systemically absorbed and had plasma concentrations that surpassed the FDA threshold for potentially waiving some of the additional safety studies for sunscreens. These findings do not indicate that individuals should refrain from the use of sunscreen."

Note that the 6 compounds examined have not been found to be generally safe and effective, so the possible effects are unknown. They may be perfectly benign but I wouldn't categorize someone concerned about these compounds as a nutjob.

I wouldn't categorize someone concerned about these compounds as a nutjob either.

Unless they're advocating soaking up lots of the sun's rays into their skin without using any sunscreen.  Because that would be advocating for accepting a well studied and known carcinogen (sunlight) out of fears of a possibly unknown one being bad.  While I definitely want the research on possible problems with chemicals in sunscreen to be done, with the information that we have at the moment the balance of safety lies in wearing sunscreen if you can't avoid being in the sun or covering up.

Regarding the specific claim of skin cancer, I would think slathering your body with a known carcinogen (benzene) would elevate one's risk, but let's wait for the peer reviewed randomized control study, I guess.

Benzene is indeed a known carcinogen.  It's not a good thing to inhale or smear on your skin.  But benzene is one of the top twenty chemicals by volume produced in the United States.  Benzene is present anywhere you go - trace amounts are found in the exhaust of vehicles, cigarette smoke, in hand sanitizer, soft drinks.  In the home it's found in glue, wax, paint, and detergents.  We are surrounded by benzene!  Have trace amounts of benzene been found that shouldn't have been there in certain types of sunscreen?  Yep, there was a Valisure study that found some.

So how bad is it?

Applying the sunscreen with the highest amounts of benzene found in the Valisure study is roughly equivalent to half the amount of benzene you would get by breathing the air in a city during the day.
 https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/benzene-sunscreen-safe-carcinogen-/2021/06/04/33723cb6-c55f-11eb-9a8d-f95d7724967c_story.html.

Are you more than twice as concerned about the health risks from air every time you enter a city than when putting on sunscreen?  If not, then you may not fully understand the risks you're taking.

It's weird to me that the bluish-grey tribe on MM are so soft on safety regulation.

I don't believe that I'm soft on safety regulation at all.  But it's important to follow the science, and not get swept up in unfounded speculation.

I think the problem here is you regard me as some anti-sunscreen person. I'm not. It would be nice to have products that were demonstrated to be reasonably safe and with reasonably good manufacturing standards rather than the mystery products on the shelves today. My point is that a reasonable person can minimize risk by avoiding some of the more exotic ingredients and still have protection from UV rays. Accepting whatever corporate America extrudes into a colorful bottle as good-enough is setting the bar quite low.

There is of course a parallel with vaccination. Questioning any facet of public policy gets one labeled as an anti-vaxxer. I question the logic or wisdom of requiring vaccination for convalescents given the high degree of immunity conferred through that route. And I got vaccinated on the first day possible for my risk and age group. There is something broken with discourse in general where nuanced positions become untenable due to ideological poisoning of the well.

And I say all this admiring some of your more heterodox comments on some threads.

(also: #freeTylerDurden)

[iris lily]

https://www.ewg.org/sunscreen/report/executive-summary/
"Four studies published in 2020, after the FDA proposal, support previous findings that oxybenzone can act as an endocrine disruptor and may increase the risk of breast cancer and endometriosis.
....
The FDA proposed that all spray and powdered sunscreens be tested to ensure they cannot be inhaled deep into the lungs, where they could do irreversible damage. In pilot testing, the agency found that three of 14 sprays would not meet its proposed standard but did not say which products consumers should avoid. EWG recommends that consumers avoid all spray and powder sunscreen products."

Interesting (and unrelated to your previous comment) tidbit . . . the EWG is not a scientific group and has a history of getting it's facts and information wrong.  It's also heavily funded by the organic lobby.

I just found that out last year, previously had thought that they were pretty legit.

The FDA is open in that it is investigating around a dozen common additives to sunscreens for which no clear safety data exists. Here is one study that shows that several active ingredients end up in the blood in concentrations that warrant further study:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2759002

First, I just want to say that I wholeheartedly agree that research into the additives in sunscreen should continue, particularly given any preliminary data that shows possible carcinogenic or toxic effects.  That's how we learn if there really is reason for concern or not.

I also want to point out the conclusion of the study that you linked:
"In this study conducted in a clinical pharmacology unit and examining sunscreen application among healthy participants, all 6 of the tested active ingredients administered in 4 different sunscreen formulations were systemically absorbed and had plasma concentrations that surpassed the FDA threshold for potentially waiving some of the additional safety studies for sunscreens. These findings do not indicate that individuals should refrain from the use of sunscreen."

Note that the 6 compounds examined have not been found to be generally safe and effective, so the possible effects are unknown. They may be perfectly benign but I wouldn't categorize someone concerned about these compounds as a nutjob.

I wouldn't categorize someone concerned about these compounds as a nutjob either.

Unless they're advocating soaking up lots of the sun's rays into their skin without using any sunscreen.  Because that would be advocating for accepting a well studied and known carcinogen (sunlight) out of fears of a possibly unknown one being bad.  While I definitely want the research on possible problems with chemicals in sunscreen to be done, with the information that we have at the moment the balance of safety lies in wearing sunscreen if you can't avoid being in the sun or covering up.

Regarding the specific claim of skin cancer, I would think slathering your body with a known carcinogen (benzene) would elevate one's risk, but let's wait for the peer reviewed randomized control study, I guess.

Benzene is indeed a known carcinogen.  It's not a good thing to inhale or smear on your skin.  But benzene is one of the top twenty chemicals by volume produced in the United States.  Benzene is present anywhere you go - trace amounts are found in the exhaust of vehicles, cigarette smoke, in hand sanitizer, soft drinks.  In the home it's found in glue, wax, paint, and detergents.  We are surrounded by benzene!  Have trace amounts of benzene been found that shouldn't have been there in certain types of sunscreen?  Yep, there was a Valisure study that found some.

So how bad is it?

Applying the sunscreen with the highest amounts of benzene found in the Valisure study is roughly equivalent to half the amount of benzene you would get by breathing the air in a city during the day.
 https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/benzene-sunscreen-safe-carcinogen-/2021/06/04/33723cb6-c55f-11eb-9a8d-f95d7724967c_story.html.

Are you more than twice as concerned about the health risks from air every time you enter a city than when putting on sunscreen?  If not, then you may not fully understand the risks you're taking.

It's weird to me that the bluish-grey tribe on MM are so soft on safety regulation.

I don't believe that I'm soft on safety regulation at all.  But it's important to follow the science, and not get swept up in unfounded speculation.

I think the problem here is you regard me as some anti-sunscreen person. I'm not. It would be nice to have products that were demonstrated to be reasonably safe and with reasonably good manufacturing standards rather than the mystery products on the shelves today. My point is that a reasonable person can minimize risk by avoiding some of the more exotic ingredients and still have protection from UV rays. Accepting whatever corporate America extrudes into a colorful bottle as good-enough is setting the bar quite low.

There is of course a parallel with vaccination. Questioning any facet of public policy gets one labeled as an anti-vaxxer. I question the logic or wisdom of requiring vaccination for convalescents given the high degree of immunity conferred through that route. And I got vaccinated on the first day possible for my risk and age group. There is something broken with discourse in general where nuanced positions become untenable due to ideological poisoning of the well.

And I say all this admiring some of your more heterodox comments on some threads.

(also: #freeTylerDurden)

I had exactly this conversation about nuanced discussion of Covid-19 treatment points today in
Reddit.

Bludgeoning either “side” is the method of discourse today, however.

[Joel]

Two anecdotes from my little social circle-

Sis-in-law is a traveling nurse and currently working in TX.  Firmly in the "don't trust this rushed vaccine, instead take vitamins and zinc to strengthen the immune system" camp. She got the Pfizer vaccine this week thanks to Biden's Medicare/Medicaid healthcare worker mandate. Guess what? She survived the jab. Way to go, Joe.

A lady friend of mine who is a nurse had resisted taking the vaccine for months, but also had to get it due to the healthcare worker mandate. Eight days after she took the vaccine she was short of breath and had pain in her leg so she went to the doc thinking it was vaccine related side effects. They didn't find anything related to the vaccine, but DID find a 4 inch tumor attached to her liver that they're going to surgically remove.

In summary, I'm sure some healthcare workers will resign, but most will get vaccinated like these two in order to save the high paying job that they invested thousands of hours of education and training into.

Excellent.  This is exactly what I think will happen.  End result - safer country, less strained hospital systems, and more people vaccinated.

I hope you are right. I will say that the high paying part of the job (from the previous post) is a bit of a stretch. Nurses with 4 year degrees are getting paid maybe a few bucks an hour more than the starting salary for an hourly person at a manufacturing plant with a lot less responsibility and dealing with a lot less crap. This is also not counting the people on burnout, who are retiring early, who would leave even without losing more nurses and making it worse.

End result could be safer country, less strained hospital systems, and more people vaccinated. It could also be much more strained hospital for a significant period of time, worst case having a hard time finding nursing staff for years to come. I hope your end result is what comes about.

In California, most registered nurses can pretty easily make $100k+ shortly after landing their first professional job. That is completely different than your average manufacturing job with no responsibility. Of course, maybe you are thinking of LVNs that don’t make as much money but also don’t have the same education requirements.

In my circle, the few registered nurses I know are much more likely to be vaccinated than the LVNs and CNAs that I know. The CNAs and LVNs are the most vocal about “stop the mandate”, while the one RN I know that’s not vaccinated is at least not advertising it nearly as much.

[six-car-habit]

 Well i work within an executive federal branch and have co-workers who are resistant to the mandate and adamant they won't get the vaccine.
   A supervisor in a different area, who has about 10 guys under him on a crew, says 8 are saying they'll leave rather than follow the mandate for federal employees. I feel it's mostly bluster and verbal diarrea, and several would comply if it meant their comfortable jobs+ paycheck would really be lost - not many of those 8 guys strike me as secret millionaires.

   But it seems the can will be kicked down the road....Covid test weekly checks were supposed to be starting this week for the unvaccinated, but the agency has put this on hold  "pending further guidance from DOD commands above us, pursuant to the new mandate". Rumor has it 50% of the local federal employee workforce is unvaccinated and managers are skittish about putting mass amounts of dissenters on 'admin leave' and not having their work metrics/jobs completed.

  One fellow is rather vocal about his resistance - the irony here is that he was in the military for about 12 years, and was deployed overseas, which i am sure they gave him a set of specific vaccinations for , not received by the ordinary US citizen or even the average soldier, due to his duty station location.  But now that he is out of the 'service' and is a federal employee, feels that his personal wishes and freedoms overrule his governments' directives. Meanwhile his wife got the shots months ago, since she also works at a federal agency, and deals directly with customers [close physical proximity to total strangers ] , so she is apparently getting mad at him.
   But he's dug himself into his resistance and comraderie with fellow - " it's unconstitutional, it's unproven, it's a fake news, its a way to control us for nefarious purposes " - likeminded co-workers.  2 other coworkers that we deal directly with , in person, have gotten [relatively mild] Covid in the last month, both were unvaxxed and antivax in mindset, one was sent home for 2 weeks, the other is nearing 20 days still with symptoms.
    Another in an adjacent work crew was in the hospital for a month, and now@ home on oxygen - that guy is about 36 years old and was in good health before covid struck him down. { he came from the crew that has 10 guys mentioned above - see they used to have 11 on the crew -but they don't know when he'll be able to physically come back and do the job }.
   
 And the 12 yr veteran guy has/had an ex-military buddy whom he stayed in touch with, " in good shape" , who went into hospital [ out of state] with covid and died after being there a week.
   I feel like just pulling him aside and saying "just get the shot already- and than continue on with your verbal bluster if you need to look cool to your 30-45yr old buddies".

   Unfortuately i see this dragging on within this federal agency as they try not to hurt the anti-vaxxers snowflake feelings, delay due to no-one buying or appropriating the 1000's of covid tests they'd need each week [ just for the site i work at] , and worry over lawsuits, costs of removing the recalcitrant employees, replacing workers with specific skill sets,  etc...

[ChpBstrd]

Well i work within an executive federal branch and have co-workers who are resistant to the mandate and adamant they won't get the vaccine.
   A supervisor in a different area, who has about 10 guys under him on a crew, says 8 are saying they'll leave rather than follow the mandate for federal employees.   

Just imagine the economic effects if all these easily-influenced-by-internet-propaganda people quit or were fired.

In the short term, the federal deficit would decrease and unemployment would be higher because agencies would have fewer redundant personnel on the payroll, and that would be a negative for the economy. In the long-term, there would be a scramble by people in lower-paying jobs to get promoted to the newly-vacated higher-paying jobs. I'm under no illusions that hiring in the federal or state contexts is 100% meritocratic, but the purging* of internet ideologues who are demonstrably unqualified to make health decisions for themselves would be specifically removing those less qualified to make decisions, lead people, cooperate on collective projects, and discern truth from falsehood.

When all the sorting is done, the replacements for these people will be more qualified and productive in all these ways. What does that mean for the effectiveness of government in general? It means better times are coming, if we can stand to listen to the grumblings of people who demoted themselves because they identified with an "influencer" on YouTube.

*To be clear, the purge I'm talking about is via death, disability, and finally vaccine mandates. It's not a political purge, it's an evolutionary event.

[MudPuppy]

@Joel california nurse wages are pretty much the best in the nation and aren’t really a useful yardstick here. The gap closes significantly in other states.

[Joel]

@Joel california nurse wages are pretty much the best in the nation and aren’t really a useful yardstick here. The gap closes significantly in other states.

Thanks for pointing that out. That’s unfortunate.

I guess even in CA for wages are significantly better, it’s still a problem. Doesn’t give much hope for states where their nurses aren’t paid well for that to be an incentive.

[MudPuppy]

Locally (and entirely anecdotal with a meaningless n) my younger cousin got offered $26 an hour as a new grad and my niece’s fiancé got a job at $19.50/hr as a forklift operator. Your point still stands to an extent that I’d rather make 26 that 19.50!